Вступление на срединный путь (текущий курс, Аризона), занятие 24

[Speaker 1]
I just got this, well, and what it is, it's a dictionary created from the catalog to the ACIP. So we've cataloged like 2,500 titles, books, so this is a dictionary of those titles, hypertexted, which means if someone else wanted to do titles, they could just use this as a dictionary. And it's really, really beautiful, and it's really well done, and it's a whole team of people, right?

I don't know how many people. Yeah, five, six regular people as usual. And then, and it's just really beautiful, and I'm really proud of it, and it's mostly Eric Brinkman and Venerable Phil helped with a lot of the programming, and they're still going.

So I'll just pass around. I'm just really proud of it. I always wanted this to happen.

Someday I'd like all 18 courses done, because that would be a dictionary that I would consider accurate. So we'll pass around, and if you want to get involved, talk to Eric. Okay, I'll ask these guys.

It's fine with me. I'm very happy. So it's not true that listeners and self-made Buddhas are born from Buddhas.

It's not true that listeners and self-made Buddhas are born from Buddhas. So it is true that listeners and self-made Buddhas are born from Buddhas. So it's true that listeners and self-made Buddhas individually are born from Buddhas.

So it's true that self-made Buddhists are born from Buddhists. So it's true that when the Buddhists teach profound dependent origination, then in that same lifetime the self-made Buddhists reach their enlightenment. Because they are born from Buddha.

You know, at that point you just say, They are? They are born from Buddha. You say they are.

But not in this lifetime. Okay, so I lost.

[Speaker 2]
All right, here we go.

[Speaker 1]
That's where we were, by the way. So start reading. Ready?

One, two, three. te yin te perma nyong'e kyi le sak pe kang sa gye tse de la le kim dre bu ma nyong'ya kye wa shen du nyo wa ta bu yin te He's just this far, right? He's just this far.

Okay. perna, for example. nyong'wa, to experience.

ngepa la kyun chang e, certain. le, as a noun. Karma.

So what's nyong'e kyi le? Karma which is committed, which is certain to ripen. It must ripen.

sak pe kang sa gye tse de... Okay, that's good enough. I want to show you how they always define nyong'e kyi le.

I was just looking at it. Here's Jankyarupa Dorje, very famous on the schools, juktas, siddhanta, on the different school systems. And he says, I like what he says, and this is how you should always introduce nyong'e kyi le to somebody.

He says, nyong'e kyi le shepa, this thing they call nyong'e kyi le, karma which you're definitely going to have to experience the result. yang, nyenpe chok gompa me na. Yeah, if you don't apply the four powers, you see?

Like he's a great lama, he's careful to say it that way. Then it's nyong'e ngepa yin. Then you're definitely going to have to experience a result.

So even here, when he's defining, what does it mean, nyong'e kyi le? Karma which you must experience the result. He's careful to say what?

If you don't apply, yeah, if you don't purify it. So I just like that. So whenever you teach this idea to somebody, the words nyong'e kyi le shouldn't come out of your mouth, unless you also say, unless you purify it, of course.

Why do you talk about nyong'e kyi le? Aren't we on Rangels? Aren't we on self-made victories?

Well, in the long run, but what's the immediate application? Yeah, but someone can do something, which is definitely going to have a result in a later lifetime. Like a self-made Buddha, he hears the teachings from Lord Buddha on dependent origination, he gets to a certain understanding of them, and then they must reach their enlightenment, which is nirvana, right?

Within a certain amount of lifetimes, or in the next lifetime, or something like that. So he says the principle is the same. That's what he's trying to say, rikpa gotsum, say rikpa gotsum.

Rikpa gotsum means parallel reasoning, okay? Look, if you don't understand this thing about self-made Buddhas, then do you know that stuff about nyong'e kyi le? Yeah, what?

With certain karmas, if you do them in this lifetime, you must experience the result in the next lifetime, you know? Even though you don't experience it in this present lifetime, right? Get it?

Yeah. So Rangels are the same. He's just trying to help the guy, okay?

Why did that come up? Yeah, because you can't say they're not born from Buddhas. They're just born in later lifetimes.

They have to be born in later lifetimes. Why? Nyong'e kyi le is just like nyong'e kyi le.

It's just like certain karma, okay? Yeah? Oh, yeah, I like that.

You're true, that's correct. MDash, how's that? And this is true because it's...

What about burying it like an example that shows it is true? An example that shows it is true is... I like that idea.

Let me think about it. I like it, though. I appreciate the idea.

Let me think about it. I think he's... Sometimes when they're not burying it for a reason...

I've been not burying it because I want to reflect how almost... I don't know. He's doing it for a reason.

He keeps doing that for a reason. He keeps saying the same thing over and over again because I guess he wants us to think like that. I don't know.

We'll see. But I'll consider it. Sorry?

He hasn't done it yet. He's about to do it.

[Speaker 2]
I didn't catch the word for paramount.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, rekpa gotsum. Gotsum means equal, equal. So, ngo.

Head, like, head, gotsum. Like, same level reasoning or something like that. It's a logic term.

Like, that's as ridiculous as saying that, you know. You see, and then you choose a similar case. And then it's just...

You see what I mean? You said that all... If something was a fruit, it had to be red, right?

So, I guess if... I guess if somebody's a person, they have to be an American then. That's rekpa gotsum.

You see, it's the same kind of... It's a parallel mistake of reasoning to show the person that their reasoning is faulty. Parallel reasoning.

Okay. Okay, you ready? Start low, okay?

This is shi, which means four. And shi means he died. Okay.

One, two, three. Shi, gya, wa, re. De, ni, she, pe, ka.

Oh, wait. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Now, this is poetry, okay?

How do you know? One way, if you see the commas in front there. If you see a comma in front, a comma behind, that's verse already, okay?

So, in verse, normally what? Okay? Unless it's the First Venerable Lama, then it's...

Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And Milarepa, okay?

I saw a reference last night that said people called him Milarepa in his life. People were referring to him in his older years as Milarepa. But anyway, here we go.

One, let's start over. So, when you get to the verse, which is the second line, you got to give me that da, da, da, da, da, da. Okay, one, two, three, four.

Shi, gya, wa, re. De, ni, she, pe. Ke, te, dir.

Nya, ngen, de, pa. Ma, to, kyang. Ke, wa, shen, du.

Pe, me, pa. Nge, par, to, gyur. Re, shi, no.

She, pa, dang. Okay, he didn't get to the cheer yet. Okay, yin, pe, e, chir.

But it's all part of the cheer. Okay. Okay.

It's an appropriate quotation, right? It's a good quotation. Because somebody else is comparing, you know, a major spiritual event leading to a certain high result in the future life.

Definitely. And then comparing it to that kind of karma. You see what I mean?

So, what are you giggling about?

[Speaker 2]
I'm haggard. He's online. He hits up a cafe in Tucson.

[Speaker 1]
Tell him if he ever shows up, we'll have a birthday party for him.

[Speaker 2]
He just heard you. Oh.

[Speaker 1]
If you let us know when you're coming, we'll buy a cake. An ice cream. I'll even share some.

Okay. Let's see. Let's go look it up why we have to be scholarly.

Okay. Who wrote the 400 verses? Wow, I didn't remember that.

Okay. So, would it be Sumbum Tengyur or Kangyur?

[Speaker 2]
Tengyur.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Any place in the Tengyur? Uma.

It's Uma. Yeah. See the top?

It says Uma and then it says 400. We're in the right place. Okay.

No, I mean, it's not a commentary to it or anything. Let's just, you know, see if the verse is okay. Remember?

Sometimes they get a little corrupted. Where is that? Oh, teni shepe kelten dir, nyangen depa ma tokyan, kewa chimar.

Beme par. Ngepa tokyur. There she knows.

Kewa chimar more often means the next life. So, our author has said other lives. Okay.

But, I think we might want to note that, right? So, Ronfolio Tene. Somebody remember all this.

Tene, TD3846. Okay. Okay.

The problem is it goes away when I do that. Okay. Now, we have to say it politely, right?

What was it? Shen, shen du, shen du. 4861?

3861?

[Speaker 2]
3846.

[Speaker 1]
Say again?

[Speaker 2]
3846.

[Speaker 1]
3846. Okay. It could mean in a later.

It could be in the next. Okay. Just so you know.

It could be either one. Yeah, in a later is not a problem. Say chimar.

I'm going to take it out. It's mostly in the next. Okay.

Say chimar. Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

How's that? Sorry? After the closing quote mark?

Oh.

[Speaker 2]
Up here?

[Speaker 1]
There? Oh, okay. Got you.

Okay. Yeah. That's why I said most often.

You know? That's to cover my rear end. Yeah.

Sure.

[Speaker 2]
Just to, if you could comment on the translation stuff. Because you translated Denzin as tendency to believe that things are real.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Which read alone that could be.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
One could go to the other extreme.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Is this because you want this book to be read with a teacher?

[Speaker 1]
No. That's a point. I mean, do you add the qualifiers that make it clear that you're not being extreme?

You know? Do you change the Heart Sutra to say, there is no form self-existently. There is no sound self-existently.

You know? And then it takes the bite away from it, I think. The whole book is about not misinterpreting the language.

So I would, you kind of leave it, you see? You don't, if they haven't, there's a big debate about that in this book. You know?

When they don't use the qualifiers truly real or self-existently real or, you know, do you supply them? Or, you know, why didn't Arya Nagarjuna supply them? Why did he confuse hundreds of generations of Buddhists?

You know? No, he did. And in many countries it's misunderstood totally, right?

So I don't know. I kind of tend, if I'm writing a short book and there's only one mention of it, but if this book itself is going to clarify it, then I don't like to, what do you call that? Jump the gun or steal his thunder, you know?

It'll be anticlimactic if he gets to explain it later, and I've already explained it. Go ahead. You can say that.

You can say that. Yeah. Would you?

We could say in reality. But, yeah. I like it.

It's perfect. I did it perfect. There's no other Tibetan word to use for real.

It's just den. You see? That's another reason.

Did you have one? Yeah, when you say that in other countries it was translated incorrectly, how do we know we are translating it correctly? No, I don't mean translating correctly.

I mean passed down incorrectly. The meaning passed down incorrectly. That things don't exist.

Oh, no, that's easy. I mean the idea that nothing's real means nothing matters, or nothing really exists, or something like that. The whole section on the Madhyamika and the Tengu is written to explain why that doesn't mean nothing exists.

You know what I mean? But people just got a hold of the Heart Sutra and never saw anything else. They didn't see the hundreds of thousands of pages of commentarial literature that explain that that's not what it means.

You see what I mean? And it's just hundreds of thousands of pages. It's not even a question at all.

They just didn't get the rest of the books. You know what I mean? So, that's all.

That's not an issue. There's no Buddhist school that thinks that it means it doesn't exist at all. You know?

Except for later, you know, people didn't get the books or something like that. Or didn't get a lineage. So, okay.

I was looking at this one a little bit, but let's read it. I'll hide this. Okay, so I look smarter.

Okay, here we go. One, two, three. Wait, it's poetry.

One, two, three. Second line. There's the...

You see, it didn't come for three paragraphs, okay? But you knew he was going to say it, so. Okay.

I'll give you one comment on pronunciation. This word here. What is that?

Yeshe. It's... How do they spell yeshe normally?

[Speaker 2]
Is it?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah, okay. It is the way.

But just so you know, when you have an E, a dengu, followed by a sa, it gets corrupted to a giku sound. So, it's yeshe. You see what I mean?

It becomes almost a giku. Just so you know. You know, yeshe.

That's why people miswrite the personal name yeshe as yeshe. Because when there's an E and an S, it often comes out sounding like an I. Why?

I don't know. Okay, it's just that way, yeshe. The correct way to pronounce it is yeshe.

Almost an I, but not quite. Okay, here we go. Okay, this is interesting.

You see the ampersand? This didn't make much sense to me. And I was sweating over it, which is a bad sign.

If you're good at translating and then you see something that doesn't make much sense, something's wrong with the verse or something, you see what I mean? So, this is a lecture about a certain verb, okay? Bretemba, see it there?

Which we pronounce temba, okay? So, ten, R-T-E-N, ratatatadamudena ten. Ten means that which supports another thing, okay?

Breten, baoratatatadamudena ten, means that which is supported upon that thing. So, bretenba, the cup is the breten, which is still pronounced temba. The table is the ten, which is also pronounced temba, okay?

But they're spelled differently. The thing that's supported is baor, baor, breten. The thing that supports it is reten, without the B, okay?

Which makes more sense here? And what are they trying to say, even without a... What do you expect them to say?

They're still going to get enlightened, even if... There's no Buddhas around to explain things to them. There's not even any disciples left over from Lord Buddha to teach them.

Yeah, if they get born in a world where there's nobody around anymore to help them, they'll still get... they'll still reach their goal, right? That nirvana.

Even without a... someone to rely on, maybe? So, that would be spelled reten.

So, breten doesn't make any sense. Even without someone to rely on them, it doesn't make any sense. You see what I mean?

Even without someone to rely upon, for them to rely upon makes sense. So, I went searching to see if I could prove that. And I was happy because I came up with...

without ten. So then, Buddhapalita, he spells it a totally different way. The commentary to the 400 verses in the Tengyur spells it reten, even with no one to rest upon.

You see what I mean? Then Buddhapalita, who's like a big shot in this lineage, right? He's the one that Chandrakirti is defending from the unfair attacks of Baba Viveka, okay?

He says basten. That's a totally different verb. That means the way you rely on a lama.

Like, shenyan tenzel in the lamrim. How to take yourself to a lama. That makes sense.

That's even better than reten, you know? Without relying on anyone else as a teacher. That's really cool.

But, when you get to Sarasiram... What's Sarasiram? The text on wisdom, written by...

I mean, it's the whole thing this book's about. Where's this quotation from? Sarasiram.

Sarasiram. So I went and looked up that in the Dhanamis. Guess what it has?

Stunpa. Which means what? A teacher.

So you went from the thing supported, which doesn't make any sense at all, to the thing which supports it in a Tengyur source, which is okay, to the teacher that you rely on, to the thing you rely on, which is even better. Then you get to the original and it says, without a teacher. But that's what you have to go through.

That's what happens over two and a half thousand years, or two thousand years. So, transcribe things well. You don't want to be made fun of in three hundred years.

That's a Diamond Mountain guy. Oh, yeah, the guy, you know? Yeah, okay.

Even without a teacher.

[Speaker 2]
Should it be a capital T?

[Speaker 1]
I think so. Okay. Now we have to explain all this.

So we look really smart, right? Next time I'll probably figure out that we mistyped it. But Gene Smith will write me an email.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, that's a good question.

[Speaker 1]
Have we ever done that yet? I think we did once, right? I don't have the guts to change Kirtan Dagi.

Okay, we'll just mention it here. Even without a teacher. There's Buddhapalita, by the way.

Best ten. Oh, we're looking for Tsa Chi. Hang on one second.

Yeah, Tönpa Mele Rabtu Kye. Okay. Oh, that's even differenter.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah? It's not so hard to get in the debate ground. He heard Temba Mepar.

And Temba Mepar could be spelled B-S-T-A-N, B-S-T-E-N, B-R-T-E-N, R-T-E-N. You know, it's like five different spellings. Temba, yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. You'd want to go look at the Sanskrit, actually. Yeah, and that will help us correct something here.

Then Rabtu Jung here doesn't mean take the place to line. Still the wisdom of those practitioners, our Buddhists that are self-made, will grow. That's a long story.

I'm not going to go explain it. What other teacher? I don't know.

How much did we tell them? I mean... Yeah, yeah.

Which folio? What was it? Oh, okay.

Yeah? Say again? Oh, I'm sorry, yeah, we have to do that.

Yeah, I just want to see how to link it. Okay, here we go. Let's just do that.

Ready? One, two, three. Konare rangyel yina rangyel rigne yinpe kyapte shigyape lungdhe chir Dang.

Split reason, right? Oops. Not that one.

This is called, say, rangyel? Rigne. Rig means type.

Ne means fixed. And it's a technical term for somebody who's going to stay on that track, fixed on that track, you see? They reach the nirvana of that track before they go anywhere else, okay?

Now, technically you can get halfway through the self-made Buddha track, not reach nirvana, see emptiness, and then move up to Mahayana track and never finish the self-made Buddha track, okay? But this guy's saying, well, he said, nyong'e kyi le, it's just like certain karma, so I guess anyone who sees emptiness on a self-made Buddha track must attain the, they must stay on that track to the end of the track, right? Why?

Well, Aryadeva said so. Didn't he compare it to karma that had to ripen a certain way? Okay?

Got it? Not a bad argument. Okay?

Let's see what we answer. Okay, you ready? Yeah.

Let's read the Tibetan together. You ready? One, two, three, khen me de, tso kye wa la, gom pa yin kyi, rang gyal la, rang gyal rig nge pe, ma kya de.

Yeah, no one slapped, that's good. Khen me, we saw it in the movie last night, everybody laughed, I liked it. He said, khen me de, no problem.

You know, aren't we moving into enemy territory where there's an epidemic and guerrilla warfare? Khen me de, it's just like, khen me, okay? Let's see you hear that in India, khen me.

Word? Yeah. Where do you know the word tso from?

Nah, that was tso. Lam tso nam sum, which is what? Good, the three principles of the path, and not, the three principles of the path.

My God, they still didn't correct it. I saw a flyer in Singapore, I was like, they still didn't correct it. Okay, anyway, tso kye wa la, gom pa yin kyi.

Question for people who know Tibetan. Is it possible to have a possessive without a noun after it? Like the book of John, or the book of Matthew, you know?

Book of, and then just stop? Is that possible? Can kyi come just before a comma?

Huh? Yeah, that's a sign that that kyi means but. So, 99.9% of the time, kyi means apostrophe s, or of, the book of John's, or the book of Matthew's. 0.1% of the time it means but. But it always means but, when it's at the end of a sentence, or at the end of a phrase, before a comma, okay? So those of you who want to be a translator, you know, I mean 99% of the time when you see kyi and there's a comma after it, you know it's got to be a dis, what do they call it?

A conjunct, a disjunctive. A but. Okay, okay, so yin kyi.

I just want to make sure it's something. Okay? That's the word kya, okay?

And you have to find ways to translate it that don't involve saying, it's not true that everyone who's a self-made Buddha is covered by self-made, you know what I mean? You've got to find other ways to say that. Because in English we just say it's not true that just because you're that, you have to be that.

You see what I mean? Okay? And you should have that in the debate ground, right?

That's not necessarily so. Ma kya, ma kya. Are you telling me it's not necessarily the case that, you see?

That's how we say it in English, okay? A lot of translators have never got that far yet. They're still saying covered.

Okay, stuff like that. Okay. Logical coverage.

You're not logically covered by, you know, huh? Okay. Yeah, pervasion's good too.

It sounds like perversion and I get confused sometimes. Okay. Okay, here we go.

One, sorry. Yeah, we decided to, and the reasoning was, we want to maintain the tension. No, really.

We want there to be a question in people's minds, why does he keep calling them Buddhas when they're not Buddhas? You see? Because then the author has to go and explain it.

Then there's a reason why the author had to go to explain it. If there had been a difference in the capitalization, he wouldn't have needed to explain it so much. You see what I mean?

Yeah, then we're already, we're already ruining his fun. You see what I mean? You see what I mean?

Then he's got to come along and say, what? No, what do you say? They are Buddha.

Buddha. But they're tatva buddha, which is what? People who have seen emptiness.

Yeah, they're tatva buddha, they're not buddha, but they're tatva buddha. Okay? That's all.

He doesn't get to do that whole trick if we anticipate him. Sometimes you can't anticipate them, because you ruin their fun. Okay, here we are, one, two, three, chung den de kyi kor du, hlak pe nge rak, thek chen gyi lam du, ka chung pe chug du, chung sem la de shin, shek pa le kyang, she hlak pe ngak pa, ze pe shing.

That whole thing, you know, whole thing. Okay. I'll just draw your attention to one word.

Like each time I'll try to do one for you. Ngak pa, say ngak pa, as opposed to ngak. Okay, say ngak.

Ngak. Ngak. Ngak.

Okay, ngak means, low tone means speech, speech, like ngawang dagya, you know. Ngak means to recommend or to praise. And if it's spelled differently, it means still high tone, ngak, without the bow.

Tantra, it means mantra. Tantra, holy utterance. Ngak.

Big ngak, you see. This is ngak. I'm talking, that's ngak.

But if I utter a mantra, that's ngak. Okay, so this is ngak. This word, hlak pa, che hlak pa, what does hlak pa mean?

Tuk pa, tuk hlak means what? Tuk ma hlak pa. Tuk ma, tuk pa hlak ma.

Yeah, leftover tuk pa, soup, leftover Tibetan soup. I made 400,000 tuk pas, I know. Is there a tuk hlak?

Yes, Geshe-la, there's tuk hlak. Yes, Rinpoche, there's tuk hlak. All right, I'll take it.

So then I don't have to pull the noodles for an hour. You have to make them by hand, right? There's different kinds of tuk hlak.

Some you make the noodles like this, sometimes you cut it up, sometimes you roll it out for an hour. Anyway, tuk hlak is a good word for the monastery cook. Okay.

So, up here, a different spelling of hlak, they've misspelled it, okay? Hlak is pronounced the same, but it means who have appeared. Okay, so hlak without the S means leftover or very much.

And this hlak over here means who have come. Okay. Are they pronounced the same?

Yes. Also, if you notice, when you are transcribing, when you are using Roman letters to show the Tibetan letters and they're stacked, you start at the top and you go down. So it happens to be that la is stacked on top of ha.

So when you type it in Roman letters, you say L-H-A, but you pronounce it H-L-A. Ha. Okay.

And then even countries' names, important names, get screwed up by people who can't figure out the difference between transcribing and pronunciation. For example, yeah, Xhasa has been stuck with Lahasa, you know, forever. Why?

Because some British guy, you know, O-L-H-A-S, you know, okay? This is one of my pet peeves, Sri Lanka, okay, which is the transcription of Sri Lanka, okay? But anyway, okay, doesn't bother you that much, okay.

Yeah. To the transcription? No, that's the only one.

Basically, that's the only one I can think of right now. Yeah, why did that happen? I have no idea.

I don't know. You just learn it. You know, someone tells you, that's why I'm telling you.

Okay. This is a cute, he's playing with the guy. It's cute, right?

He's saying, I got to get this straight. What did the other guy say? He said, once somebody is a self-made Buddha, and maybe if he's, especially if he's seen emptiness on a self-made Buddha path, because I think we're assuming that, right?

Then, then he's got to stick on that path until he reaches the nirvana of that trap, right? And then, and then we said, come on, that can't be the case. And then he said, why?

And then we said, well, if that was the case, why would Lord Buddha bother to try to lead them up to the bodhisattva trap? You know, if they were stuck already on a, on a self-made Buddha trap, then why did Lord Buddha try to convince them to go to a higher track? Even his own students, you know, he's trying to get them up with a higher track.

And, and duh, how did he do that? He's like, bodhisattvas are so, they're much cooler than Buddhas. They're cooler even than Buddhas, you know.

Why is that an especially hot thing to say right here? No. Well, that, in one way, but...

Yeah, the whole, the whole first lines of this book that we're studying, he's bowing down to bodhisattvas and not Buddhas. That's the whole point of this book. This is an especially nasty thing to say to his opponent right now because we're inside of a book that's already praised bodhisattvas more than Buddhas from the first lines.

Duh! Didn't you read the first lines of this whole book? Yeah, I read them.

Well, what do they say? Oh, well, like he's, Chandrakirti's like praising bodhisattvas more than Buddhas. Well, why?

I don't know. What do you think he wants people to maybe try to be a bodhisattva? Yeah, I guess.

Well, who is it among his students who's not a bodhisattva yet? Like listeners or self-made Buddha types? Yeah.

Well, so Lord Buddha's trying to get them to make a change that they can't make? Who said that? You just said that.

You see, it's a beautiful thing. He's like, he's like leading this guy. It's a chess match, right?

You think like six moves ahead. You say something like six moves ahead, then you just slowly go through this with the guy. Oh, so I guess, oh, and then, but then, yeah, and then, so they can't make this change, right?

Yeah, they can't. But Buddha said that, yeah. Then you do this karthi karthim thing, you know.

Don't sit there and go karthi karthim, you know. You got to get your mala in this hand, you know. And you, people ask me in the breakout, how you, you lead the guy.

You say, oh, so people can't really change. They can't move up, right, in track. Yeah.

So Master Chandrakirti doesn't write his book, right? What do you mean, you know? Well, I mean, he didn't write the first few verses, right?

Yeah, he wrote the first few verses. Why? Because he's not praising Bodhisattvas.

Well, yeah, he's praising Bodhisattvas. Well, why? Because Lord Buddha would do that.

Well, why would Lord Buddha do that? Well, so he can move people up to another track. Karthi karthim!

You know, and then you got him, you know, and you say, you see, then you're like, then you see, he said, karthi karthim, it's like you said now three things that are totally out of, you caught yourself, you see. Oh, this and this, but this, right? karthi karthim, you know, and then you, you know, you really give it to the guy.

People said to me the other day, you guys were so loud in the debate ground, I couldn't concentrate. You know, so, that's the point, you know. No, you can hear the debate ground at Sarah from two miles away.

The ground shakes in your house, you know, when it's going well. So, yeah, do it. And then the other guys have to try to concentrate.

It makes everyone else have to concentrate, you know, and the classes aren't so close usually, I mean, in the debate ground. They're like, you know, you'd have to be far away.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. I'm at risk of sounding like some idiot.

[Speaker 1]
I hope. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
This is how they usually catch you.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, you know, I know I'm wrong, but...

[Speaker 2]
No, no, no, no.

[Speaker 1]
You have to listen particularly clearly.

[Speaker 2]
Couldn't the Lord Buddha have been doing that with the expectation of just planting seeds that would ripen after they reached their point of here?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's possible. That's possible. Totally possible.

[Speaker 2]
I agree it's possible.

[Speaker 1]
Take me to the debate ground. It's like, what is it? James Brown.

Take me to the gap. Take me to the bridge? Take it to the debate ground.

Let's read this. Ready? One, two, three.

Kyab te, chok te, tuk te, kor te, gyeol te, rang gyeol, da jeong, mae mae, shik. Okay. I don't know.

You've got to debate this. I don't think it's as easy as Ellie said. I don't know.

You have to think about this one. I'm not quite sure about this one. I think you have to debate it.

Come back. You know. Yeah, I don't know.

I think you've got to cook this one. Okay. What's a chok te tuk te?

What's that different from a tuk te? Oh, you said called classic. I like that.

Yeah. The classic form of a Buddha. You know.

Gyeol te, chok te, gyeol te, chok te. What's that mean? Yeah.

Consider a scroungy old dog. Gyeol te, chok te, tuk te, mae in, ba ta. Tuk te, yin pe, chok te.

Tuk te, yin pe, chok te. Could be a tuk te. Tuk te, yin pe, chok te.

Chok te, yin pe, tuk te, mae in, ba ta. Mae in te, sen pe, gyeol te, chin ni, mae bae te. No, it's not because it doesn't have the 112 signs and marks.

I mean, it might be. Why? Give me a kya ma chung, give me a chi chi, give me anything.

Ta ma du. Kya ma ma chung. Kya ma ma chung means it's true it doesn't have the 112 marks and signs.

That doesn't mean it's not a tuk te. Yeah. Okay.

So, chok te tuk te, mae in, ba ta. Chok mae in, ba ta. Chok mae in, ba ta.

You said it's not the supreme emanation. So, it's not supreme. Chok mae in, ba ta.

Chok te tuk te, yin pe, yin pe, yin ba ta. So, it's both supreme and an emanation body. De.

Chok te tuk te, yin ba ta. Good. Okay, got it?

Is it supreme? Yes. Is it an emanation?

Yes. Is it a supreme emanation? No.

I didn't say that. Okay. Now, you got to stand your ground like, Yeah, it's supreme.

Yeah, it's an emanation. No, it's not the supreme emanation. It doesn't have the 112 marks.

It's not the cult classic. It's beautiful, funny. I mean, it's a lot of fun in the main.

Okay. Got it? You okay?

Nod. Okay. All right.

Okay. Remember J.K. used to say, he used to keep saying, You know, we're like, Let me just see if I can make it shorter for you somewhere.

[Speaker 2]
The guys online can't nod.

[Speaker 1]
Sorry?

[Speaker 2]
We can't see the guys online nod.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, okay. Let's just do this part. You ready?

One, two, three. Okay. Somebody says, Does he say or quote or, it's way down at the bottom here.

The verb will be at the end. Let's see. Ser.

Ser means? He claims. Already he's wrong.

All right. He doesn't even get to say. He just gets to claim.

Okay. In the commentary, it says, it just says, Okay. So now, we're expected to follow an argument about the word, that appears in a commentary.

Okay. How many commentaries do you think, in the ten year, have the word, kajik in them? You see?

I mean, this is very frustrating. You get to sit like this, Oh, in the commentary, where it says kajik. You know?

Let's do a search. We'll do a kajik. Hang on.

We'll take one commentary. First, we'll mark our place. Okay.

We're just being cute, right? Okay. Here we go.

Here we go. This is a trick, if you want to count, how many kajiks are in this text. You go, kajik.

And you replace it with kajik. Okay. 183 in this commentary.

Okay. Multiplied times, 2,000. So we have 360,000, kajiks to choose from.

So what do you do? You see, what do you do when they say something like this? It's a big trouble.

What's this a commentary on? What's Uma Chidu in a commentary on? Yeah, Gomu Rabsel.

Jetsun Kapu's great book on emptiness. So in this case, you'd go to Gomu Rabsel, and you'd see, did he mention any debate around this point with the kajik in it? And he does.

Okay. So I'm not going to take you through the whole thing. But this would be almost impossible for somebody who, if you didn't have a database, or just be, what's he talking about?

You know. So anyway, I'll go show you this debate. Did I wipe that out?

There we go. Yeah, Kelte Jan Kajik. That helps a little bit.

I'm going to take you to, this is the commentary he's talking about. Okay. It's in the tenure.

And it's a conversation that says, it's right here. Kelte Jan Kajik. There it is, in the middle of the sentence, even.

Which means, you know, it is the case that some people, after they get in that lifetime of teaching on dependent origination, and even if they get good at perceiving emptiness, at the very lifetime in which they saw emptiness, they don't achieve nirvana. Okay, I mean? So they're talking about, okay, there are cases, Kajik.

Here Kajik means cases, where people, they get the teachings from Lord Buddha, they perceive, they even perceive emptiness in that lifetime, but they don't reach the final goal, their final goal of nirvana in that lifetime. Mö Kyi means, I admit there's people like that. Whose commentary is this?

It's 3862. Did we just do it? Let's mark this place.

Let's see if we've ever had it in our book. Okay? It's not even a commentary.

He could have at least said Rang Deo, thanks. You know what I mean? Anyway, okay.

He says, you would have memorized the Rang Deo. He's expecting you know it by heart. Come on.

What do you mean you don't know what commentary I'm talking about? Where have you been? You know?

Aren't you doing your memorizing? You know? What do you do in the morning after your meditation and your yoga?

Eat breakfast? Okay. So it's in the outer commentary.

Is he claiming? Yeah. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Hmm.

[Speaker 1]
How do you stop the indent thing?

[Speaker 2]
Up here? Okay.

[Speaker 1]
In 16 point? Yeah. Okay.

What do I do? Oh yeah, I got taught that. Okay.

I'll do it next time. Certain ones. 220...

A.

[Speaker 2]
It was in the...

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Hmm. Oh, you're right.

[Speaker 1]
What is the D in TD? Do you know? It's the Derge addition.

So sometimes there might be a TS for the Sertre addition. Or... There is no Hasa addition of the Tengir.

Why? No, no. It never got carved.

Tibet was attacked before they finished the Tengir. The Kangir was finished. Reuse it.

But the Tengir was never finished. It was destroyed. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Ah, it's okay.

[Speaker 1]
Sometimes I'll do it. Yeah. This is a little hard.

Hang on. Let me think about this. Why does he say, but who do not attain their particular enlightenment in this lifetime?

Yeah. He's talking about those three kinds of enlightenment and, you know, the listeners don't get to the listener enlightenment which is just a nirvana anyway. You got that point.

Now this is kind of a last shot and then they'll get into more interesting stuff. They're going to start how the Buddhas come from bodhisattvas. This is the last little nootnik argument.

And it comes like this. And I'll just set it up for you. Would Master Chandrakirti bother or did he ever have cause to respond to somebody saying that neither listeners nor self-made Buddhas come from Buddhas?

What's the whole argument been in the last few pages? Yeah, we've been talking about how self-made Buddhas are not born from Buddhas. Why?

Because they don't attain it in that lifetime. They listen to dependent origination. They listen to emptiness and then in that lifetime they don't attain their goal.

So how could they be born from that Buddha, you see? Then we naturally come along and we say what you'd expect us to say is, yeah, okay, they don't get it in that lifetime but they get it so they're still born from that Buddha, right? So there isn't really any need for Master Chandrakirti to go proving that he's never defending himself from someone who said what?

Yeah, that listeners aren't born from Buddhas. So this guy's not correct. You see what I mean?

That's the point. Get it? I'll say it again.

Master Chandrakirti will never be in a position to have to respond to somebody who said that neither listeners nor self-made Buddhas are born from Buddhas because nobody ever said that listeners weren't born from Buddhas because lots of listeners get to their goal in the same lifetime that the Buddha teaches them dependent origination. So it's not the case that Master Chandrakirti said khajig, etc. to defend himself against somebody who's saying that neither listeners nor self-made Buddhas are born from Buddhas because nobody would ever say that neither listeners nor self-made Buddhas are born from Buddhas because nobody would say that listeners are not born from Buddhas because there's lots of listeners who are born from Buddhas because they get to their own enlightenment in the same lifetime after they hear it.

Okay? Got it? Okay.

That's what he's about to say. It was kind of hard to... It's such a new thing, you know.

Anyway... Let's see what I have here. Hang on.

Yeah, but... Brit? Not Brit?

Okay, sorry.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
These lines are representing special enlightenment.

[Speaker 2]
Ew. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? The first guy said... What did the first guy say?

Master Chandrakirti is trying to... He's trying to defend himself from someone who said that Yeah. Now another guy came up and said, No, no, no, that's not it.

Somebody has said that, Look, there's listeners and self-made Buddhas who don't attain their nirvana just after they get taught dependent origination. Nor do they attain it later on. Okay?

Okay? Get it? Nor do they attain their nirvana later on.

So they don't attain it right after the Buddha taught them dependent origination. And they also don't attain it later on. Yeah, this is even a worse argument.

So anyway. Basically, but both guys are making the same mistake. Right?

Master Chandrakirti is defending himself against somebody who said that they're not born from Buddhas because... Who's not born from Buddhas? Listeners and self-made Buddhas aren't born from Buddhas.

Then we're going to say, Come on, he doesn't have to defend himself against that because nobody's... The whole point is what? What we've been talking about.

And then next week you'll get the exciting conclusion. And I'll just translate it for you. You know.

Dopa chewa means the whole confusion here. Okay? Dopa chewa.

The whole big confusion here is do self-made Buddhas get born from Buddhas? Okay? We're talking about the implications of that idea.

If we take the whole argument to be as you're presenting it, there's no point. There's no real point to that argument. Nobody ever said that listeners don't get born from Buddhas.

That's all. There wouldn't be any point. What?

There wouldn't be any like relevance that this... What do you call it? There wouldn't be any relevant.

It'd be irrelevant to have an argument like that right now. Why? Because the burning question on everybody's mind is are self-made Buddhas born from Buddhas?

They're not like... Nobody's worried about whether listeners are born from Buddhas. Okay?

Everybody knows they are. Okay? None.

Okay. I know it's hot. I know it's an exciting argument.

But you'll never forget the point, right? I mean, ten years from now you'll still say, yeah, even self-made Buddhas come from Buddhas.

[Speaker 2]
You know?

[Speaker 1]
You'll forget all the other arguments. Somebody will ask you, what's a self-made Buddha? And you'll say, I know.

You know, let me remember, it's somebody who, yeah, they're not really self-made and they're not really Buddhas, but they, you know, they don't need a teacher in this life. And there was something about relying on or depending on, but that doesn't really matter. No, you'll, no, the point is it's the it's the monk circles in reverse.

What's the monk circles about? If you never look at a lady on on Penelope Cruz on the movie screen, then you'll never look at a lady in the theater. And if you never look at a lady in the theater, you'll never look at a younger lady in the theater.

If you never look at a younger lady in the theater, you'll never look at, you know, anybody. And then you'll never break your vows, right? Like that.

And then the opposite of that is if you know the two arguments about listeners and self-made Buddhas and why they're not relevant in Master Chandrakirti's auto-commentary, then you, then you'll know that, that, you know, it's only self-made Buddhas they're worried about. And then you'll remember that the argument was whether self-made Buddhas were born from Buddhas at all. And then you'll at least you'll remember that self-made Buddhas is something and then you'll remember that self-made doesn't mean, you know, and you'll, after you finish your Geshe, three years later in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, with your little Dharma center, you'll have no recollection of this argument.

But, but you will remember what self-made Buddha means. You see what I mean? And that's the only reason they take you through that in the monastery.

It's, it's not that you're going to remember all this stuff, because, you know, when you do your Geshe, you get like six years to prepare. You don't have classes for like six years for Lama Geshe. You just review, sometimes ten years, you know, and then, and then, the day, Geshe Tung, you do your Geshe, Tung also means to throw out, you know, so you take all your books and Geshe Tung, you know, and you're like, ah, you know, now I can go to US and have a Dharma center, you know, and, and, then you, you know, they overkill you.

It's overkill. And then the hope is that you'll retain the 25% that you, that you need to, and that's the same thing with the debate crowd, you know, so it's not like some useless hair splitting. Don't, don't ever think that.

It's to sharpen your mind and to plant deep seeds that won't go away when you, Geshe Tung. Okay. All right.

Here we go. Hope I didn't get in trouble. Okay.

This is so sweet. Okay. Thanks for letting me do it.

Here we go.