Вступление на срединный путь (текущий курс, Аризона), занятие 23

[Speaker 1]
Okay, let's see here. Self-made Buddhas lack any extraordinary form of the two collections of wisdom and merit, right? Because if they had it, it would be a unique cause for a specific result of the Dharma body.

And they don't have that in their mind stream yet. Okay, so that's where he was. Then he said, we're starting a new section here, ready?

Don't say the sick gopher ting your part, okay? Alright, that's just a note to myself. Here we go.

We're going to read this together, ready? You know all the rules, right? One, two, three.

khyap te drel pa gun sel le yang dha pa dru pe ngo ngur chang chu chen po jin par che pe chir na ying je chen do la so pa so yin pe she sung pe Yeah, okay. I looked this up because I wasn't too sure about it. I couldn't find it and then I realized it was misspelled.

Okay, so I'll show you how I found it. You always search for different pieces of it. So, yang dha or ngo rang chen.

Okay. It's from Drelpa Dunsel, which is Haribhadra's big commentary to the perfection of wisdom, especially to Ngundogen, Abhisamankara by Maitreya. So, where would it be?

Tengyur, good. Who said that? Any particular section?

It's sherchen, it's perfection of wisdom, okay? I think, let's see. There it is there, okay?

So, what's it say? Yang dha pa dru pe, right? Ngo ngur chang chu chen po jin.

You see? And this is jin. And that's a little tricky.

They mean the same thing. Maybe it's an older translation or something, okay? But that's just another example of what you have to deal with when you're translating a monastic text, that they might have misquoted.

You know, you bust your brains trying to translate it, then you sort of twist it around and you translate it, then you find out it was spelled wrong anyway, and then you have to go back and re-translate it, okay? So, dzinpo chepay chir na, yinje chenpo la sopa ni tsong yin. Chir na, yinje la sopa ni tsong yin.

Okay, so that's... I think I'll leave it. Was it jinpa?

Before I got into it?

[Speaker 2]
Jinpa?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, okay. It doesn't make sense to me. I think it might be mispronounced.

You see? That's all. And your Tibetan has to be really good by that.

You know, it's just like it's slightly wrong, something feels wrong, and then you go along, you know. Okay. Chepte.

How do I get that indent thing up here? Let me think about it. When you say necessarily the case, you mean if A then B.

You see what I mean? Chep kevata means, are you telling me it's necessarily so? Like, if something is a fruit, it's red.

What do you say? If something is a fruit, it must necessarily be red. Chep.

Then you say tamadrup. Then I say makavata. You're telling me it's not necessarily so?

Then I say, then you give me an exception. Chok. Sorry?

A green apple? Okay, yeah. All right, something like that.

So chep means necessarily the case. If A then B. If it's A, then it must be B.

But somebody here just gave a chep. What was it? Now he's saying it is a chep.

Somebody else said it's not a chep. He's replying to the guy. It is a chep.

What's a chep? The last paragraph. Once something is, if you have the two collections in a special form, in an advanced form, they must act as a unique cause for the dharma body.

If you get the two collections in an advanced form, they must create the dharma body. Okay? Therefore, lower track people can't have them.

Okay, got it? Okay, got it? Get the chep.

Okay? Okay.

[Speaker 2]
And then...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah?

[Speaker 2]
You should say a commentary or... He says as commentary.

[Speaker 1]
Oh yeah, okay. Oh, by the very nature, yeah. I was going to say their very nature and then I changed.

But I have to reflect this Tibetan up here. Okay? Okay?

So, he claims that that proves his point. Okay? Got it?

Haribhadra. And it's not to this text, so we better put it in the notes, right? How do we do that?

Like this? Like this? Was it...

[Speaker 2]
Was it one?

[Speaker 1]
By the way, that means he's reading Great Enlightenment as dharma body, didn't it say? You know, by their... See, they produce a dharma body, right?

So like that. And then he's reading that collection as an extraordinary form of the two collections. You see?

He's taking a lot of liberties. But that's okay. He's on our side.

Okay. Give him the folio number. It's folio 91A.

On... The Ornament of Realization. Yeah.

These are all plugs for John Brady. TD 379. TD 3793.

Okay. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Which one?

[Speaker 1]
I like that. Yeah. You could just take it out, actually.

Okay. That's pretty good. Okay.

One. You're kind of sleepy, so you got to be... I didn't bring my jelly beans.

Did I bring them? Yeah. Okay.

One, two, three. DE GYU LA SO NI KE BA CHEN ME KYANG SO SANG MI YOD TE SO PAO BA YOD PAE SHI Done. And there's going to be a second half.

Okay. What's gyut mean? Yeah.

It means tantra.

[Speaker 2]
Or? Thread.

[Speaker 1]
Or stream. Mindstream. Okay.

Like we're working on the four medical tantras. Some people in the medical class from Tibet. They're called gyushi.

Say gyushi. They're unbelievable. But anyway, that's another story.

SO Collection. NI The two. KE BA CHEN Extraordinary.

ME Or they don't have. Right? ME can mean they don't exist or it can mean they don't have.

[Speaker 2]
KYANG But.

[Speaker 1]
SO Collection. SAM Just sort of a collection. YOD They do have.

Okay. SO PAO BA means like plain old. Ordinary.

Right? Okay. YOD What's that say?

Guess.

[Speaker 2]
Ordinary. They don't have the two collections, but they do have extraordinary karma.

[Speaker 1]
They don't have the two collections as KE BA CHEN.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
But they do have sort of a regular old collections. Like they're collecting karma, right? They have wisdom.

They have merit. Right? It's just not extraordinary.

Okay? All right? That's all.

Okay. You got it. Once you know most of the words, you can kind of figure it out.

If you've heard it ten times. You don't want to say ordinary, do you? I don't know.

Common? Ordinary is okay? An ordinary?

Okay. For they. I'd say more common to be a little polite.

Just that, I don't think, when you find out how long it takes them to get it, you won't say orni anymore. It's just relatively more common, you see what I mean? It's coming.

[Speaker 2]
I don't think it's just mundane.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, it's not, I don't think so. They're arhats, so it's not, they've gone beyond that. We don't use the word collection, would we?

[Speaker 2]
We don't use the word collection, would we? If they were talking about Sakya.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, right, technically you don't. That's an interesting point. Okay, good.

I have to put something here. You know? And this is true because they have a more common form, this collection.

Ready? I don't really know. I better put the whole thing.

Okay, that's why it wasn't ordinary. Okay. By the way, there's different kinds of Rangyal, there's different kinds of self-made Buddhas, and one is called Sarutabu, say Sarutabu.

And they're called rhino-like, rhinoceros-like. And the story is that the rhinoceros doesn't like to be around others. They like to hang out by themselves.

So they're sort of like people who aren't really interested in others too much. They just like to meditate on their own and be in a cave by themselves. They don't mix with other people.

They definitely don't have a bodhisattva type of mentality. They're just sort of interested in their own shtick. And that's called a Sarutabu.

Is there a connotation of being a bit sort of grumpy as well?

[Speaker 2]
No, no, no. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And you know, if you were going to take 20 years on the translation, you could go look up an actual reference that tells you why they're called Sarutabu. I'm not going to do it. Oh, that's a good question.

You see, it just says the commentary on the Abhidharmakosha, which is very helpful. There must be like 1,000 or 2,000. So that's why we have the database.

We can actually look it up. Sotādhā, Cepe. Again, you take a couple of pieces of it, right?

In case he has misspelled anything, or in case any typist has mistyped anything. Okay. Sotādhā.

I'm going to stop the Cepa at S-P-Y. Can you guess why, Tithima? Or you?

Well, that verb is most often found as Cepa. And he might have quoted another tense of the verb. I can catch both of them with S-P-Y.

You see what I mean? It's just a thing you learn after a couple of years. I can catch both of them.

I can catch all tenses of this verb with S-P-Y. You see what I mean? Like that.

It's like a root. Yeah, it's similar to the root. There's stuff you can only do in Tibetan, and only if it's typed in the way we do it.

And we know that, and that's why we type it in that way. So, no matter what tense this verb is, I'll find it. You see what I mean?

Because I'm just using the first half of the word, which is unique. Okay. Then I'll misspell this.

What did I do here? Seru. What did I...

Did I misspell it? I know that people often misspell it with the prefix letter, so... I'll just leave off the prefix letter.

I'll still find it. You see, these are tricks you learn. And only if you type it in this way.

You see what I mean?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, it's a lot. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. You'd hit too many. You'd hit too many.

It's pretty common in Abhidharma. Tenggyur or Sumbum? I don't know.

He just said the commentary. A commentary. I think Tenggyur.

I actually looked it up. I think it's Tenggyur. I think it's the auto-commentary, but we'll see.

Yeah, there it is. And here's the... See up here?

Zurang. That means Rangdel. Auto-commentary.

Okay. So it's Master Vasubandhu's own commentary. Which he should have called Rangdel.

You see? But anyway. And I'm sorry to bore you with all these footnotes, but again, I'm not going to go...

I wouldn't fix it.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It is a commentary, right? Yeah. I wouldn't fix it.

But I would tell people, right? How do I get it out of the indent? Go back here.

Palatino? Sure? Okay.

How do we find the folio? Just scroll up. See when you get the first number.

159B. And again, that kind of thing used to take about three days. Really.

So, we just did it. You guys are spoiled. They haven't typed in everything, unfortunately.

I mean, it's still being processed. I think it's all typed in, but it's not processed yet. So...

So I guess they do have some sort of collection? They worked out at 100 great eons? How long is a great eon?

What's the difference between an eon and a great eon? There's 80 smaller eons. It's like a great eon.

And it's when the universe goes through a process of, like, nothing, and then begins, and then stays, and then is destroyed. So, in the time it takes like a galaxy to do that is 80. Is 80, like, lesser eons.

And that's one great eon. And then you have to multiply that times 100. To get enough karma to be a rhinoceros type.

Alright. Okay. No problem.

Somebody tried, like, Bhutan Rinpoche tried to put a number on it. It's very difficult because it's not measured... What do you call it?

It's not measured absolutely. It's measured relatively. It's the time it takes for lifespans to increase to a certain point and then drop to a certain point.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
So, do you need to collect more karma than that? Well, you'd obviously have to collect more karma than that to be on the right path.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, he's ding. He's a sangye ding. He's just mid-level.

Right? Okay. By the way, but that's why he's ding compared to nyentus, listeners, right?

Why? They said, singwe chir. He's been at it longer.

Okay, he's been at it longer, they said. Yeah. Oh, this is in your book, jimba class tonight.

I know. She can finish it. One, two, three.

What's serna? Serna. Close.

Serna means cheapness. Refuses to share things. It's the opposite of the first perfection.

Serna is if you say. Okay. So, what do we have here?

Serna. Serna. Serna.

Okay. Goes down. Serna.

If you say serna, it means the guy's cheap. If you say serna, it means he claims this. Okay, got it?

This is serna. Low tone. Serna.

Okay. Kaji? Yeah.

Yeah, somebody says. Somebody says. Rangya.

Self-made Buddhas. Dingbo. Mid-level.

Gyuten. Reason. I was a self-made.

I was a serutabu on that one. It also means lonely, you know. Ranglam.

Their own path. Soup. Form or physical matter.

Soup. Stick somebody with a knife. Soup.

Form. Got it? This is soup.

Not soup. Okay? Chirukidun.

Chirukidun. Those of you who went to Serna and did the mind-only stuff. Chirukidun.

Outside objects. Outside objects. Chirukidun.

Okay. Topa. Wrong idea.

Topa. Right idea. Okay, listen carefully.

Topa. Wrong idea. Topa.

Right idea. It's just a secondary suffix difference. They're pronounced exactly the same.

Okay? Ratokpa is to misunderstand. Ratokspa is to realize fully.

Okay? And they're homonyms. So in the debate ground, the guy says, stop that chair, and you go, which one?

You know? You got to be careful. All right?

Denzin. Holding to things that's true or self-existent. Okay, we'll stop there.

That's enough torture. Now suppose someone comes and makes that following claim. Let me see.

Okay? It's the same that they still possess. It's just the same.

Yeah, in some schools, in some schools, specifically Madhyamika Svatantrika, right? The lower Madhyamika school says there's degrees of emptiness. Demetaraksum.

Say demet. Demetaraksum. Three degrees of emptiness.

You know? So like you might understand the emptiness of things, but none of your own mind yet or something like that, you know? So, there's a big deal in mind-only school.

Do outside objects exist in the mind-only school? Do they exist the way they look? No, I mean, outside objects that are not part of your mind don't exist.

You see what I mean? You're always looking at your toes. When I look at Earl, I'm looking at an extension of myself.

You see what I mean? So in that sense, in that sense, outside objects don't exist. So he's saying, this guy's proposing, the reason why these self-made Buddhas are called mid-level is they've figured it out that the things around them are projections from themselves, for example.

But they still believe that the mind itself cannot be a projection. You see what I mean? Like, the reason I like the color of the house is because I've built a house for somebody before.

But the reason I have a mind is just there. It's not that it's a karma that I did or something. It's just there.

Just there. Right? They feel like very uncomfortable if there's not something that's just there.

You know? Like, my awareness of me must be just there. If that's not just there, then where am I?

You see what I mean? And it's true. You want to think like that, right?

[Speaker 2]
Well, if they've seen emptiness and thought about it for several great eons, don't you think they would have come up with that the mind is also I don't think, I don't think that's a karma.

[Speaker 1]
I mean, just because eons have gone by, then all the beings in the hell realms are already understanding.

[Speaker 2]
No, no, no. First you see emptiness. Then you think about it for several years.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, let's see what the guy says. Let's see what a kid with thermodynamics says. It's probably easier.

All right. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And, you know, you always have to try to, when you're working on translation, you try to stop and think about, well, do I have this problem? You see what I mean? Like, I understand that, you know, my car is a result of some mixed good karma and bad karma, right?

But, my own awareness of things, you know, the fact that I'm conscious, you know, is that it? Is that my own projection? And if it is, then who's projecting it?

If there's, you know, if the consciousness of my thoughts is not driving me, then no one's driving me. And that feels really uncomfortable to people. You see what I mean?

You could get really, you could go off the deep end if you think about that too much, you know? Also, you'd get like, you could get very depressed and say, oh, I can't change then, you know? If the mind that wants to control my mental afflictions is also a result of my mental afflictions, then what help is there?

You see what I mean? Or something like that, you see? How does that, in terms of yoga, the two side channels?

Because it sounds like one's got clarity. Exactly. Yeah.

It's the it's a sungjingi topa. It exactly relates to the two side channels. And there's a debate in Tibet about which is which.

But anyway, one is controlling your tendency to think of outside objects as as real, as not coming from you. And one is controlling your tendency to think of you and your mind as not coming from you. Okay?

Like that. And there's a debate. There's a debate.

With the sun channel, then one has been absorbed, whereas the moon channel is still. Yeah. You could have like one getting thin, and the other still strong.

Yeah. Then you'd have to do more left twists or something. I don't know.

Okay. No, really. That's the theory, right?

Okay. Anyway. Oh, let's read it together.

One, two, three. DEMI TE BA STA If you go up with the TA, it means, but that's incorrect. But if you go down with it, DEMI TE BA TA, are you telling me that's incorrect?

How are you going to go? Right? DEMI TE BA TA, but that's incorrect.

Or, DEMI TE BA TA, are you telling me that's incorrect? Of course it's correct. Yeah, it's the first one.

So as you read it, be careful. There's no sign on the paper. It's just knowing that we must be saying what?

But that's not right. Okay. DEMI TE BA TA.

Okay. You don't say, DEMI TE BA TA. Which means, are you telling me that's not right?

Which means you think it is right. In the debate, you're always saying, DEMI TE BA TA. Are you telling me, god damn, you're telling me that's right?

You know? No, no, I didn't say that. CHI CHIR.

[Speaker 2]
Right?

[Speaker 1]
That's the whole thing. TA. YIN PA TA.

CHI CHIR. It's always like, CHI CHIR. It's like this wounded thing.

CHI CHIR. You know? No, I didn't say that.

Why did you say that? CHI CHIR. Why did you say that?

And then you say, DEMI TE BA TA. Are you telling me that? CHI CHIR.

You know? You gotta go like this, CHI CHIR. You know?

But here it must be what? DEMI TE BA TA. He's up here.

DEMI TE BA TA. But that's not correct, because then he's gonna, CHI CHIR. You see what I mean?

But that can't be right. Instead of, are you telling me that's right? You see what I mean?

Got it? Okay. Anyway.

Maybe you got it. Okay. Here we go.

One, two, three. DEMI TE BA TA. LU YI CHI DEN YI.

NYE LA NYE LA DE KO LA NYE. MUN SU. SUM GI TOG PA YOD PA SUM DE YOD.

DA. Okay. See how this Togpa is spelled?

They realize, compared to this Togpa, which we translated as to think wrongly, right? Okay. Okay.

But that can't be correct. Lessness? I'm completely equal.

Lupti me me. There's no this system. Good, tamadu.

By the way, by the time you say that, you better have the system ready. Don't just say tamadu automatically. Like, stall if you have to.

Because he's going to come back and say, show. You're telling me, goddammit, that there is a system? Yeah, show.

You're telling me there are other objects? Oh, so they are not just my projections? So they can be my projections and outer objects at the same time?

So they can be mind and physical form at the same time? Oh, less dis that time. Good.

So they're not mind and physical matter at the same time? Why not? They're a projection of mind, but they're not mind.

Yeah, you always have to say as. That's this debate. They're being projected as outer objects, therefore they are outer objects.

Okay, that's all. So it's not like you're going around in your mind all day. That's the point.

Is this wall created by your mind? Yes. So are you just this lonely, only person in the universe, you know, projecting everybody else?

No. Because you're projecting them as people. As people different than you.

Therefore they are different from you. Okay. Yeah, but they're still your projection, right?

If you don't like what someone's doing to you, you can always change it. How? Talk, reason with them.

Get tough with them. No, get tougher.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
You just absolutely have to stop doing it yourself. It's the hardest solution of all, right? I mean, it's the most distasteful solution of all, to admit that you're creating everything, you know.

It's like the last thing you ever wanted to admit, okay? Okay. That's the way it is.

Okay, so in this system, there is no demetraxum. There are no degrees of emptiness. Okay?

Either you see it or you don't see it. It's not like you see part of it or you see one aspect of it. Period.

No difference. Yeah?

[Speaker 2]
But the first thing you see when you say, there is no degrees of emptiness of your own self, so not the self-made Buddha, it's not the perception that thinks that exists, but that the mind does.

[Speaker 1]
He's saying in the Majjhima, Kapasangika system, they don't. They don't perceive that. They just perceive that everything is empty.

You see what I mean? They perceive that. There is no distinction of degrees that you see.

Oh, Majjhima, if you know Mahamudra, there's no difference. The first five are degrees of emptiness, right? And they're all wrong.

And they're not emptiness. Okay. I think the next part might help you also.

Here we go. Let's read it together. One, two, three.

Okay. And moreover, he's making a distinction between Lam-kigak-ja. Do you remember that?

And what's the other one? Is it Gopi-gak-ja? I don't remember.

There's two kinds of Gak-ja. Lam-kigak-ja and Rig-pi-gak-ja. Yeah, Lam-kigak-ja and Rig-pi-gak-ja.

There's two kinds of Gak-ja. What's a Gak-ja? The thing that ain't there when you say there's empty.

You see? When you say my pocket's empty, you mean, what's a Gak-ja? Money.

Okay. All right. No, the thing that ain't there, which is why the thing is empty.

The thing that, because it's not there, the thing is empty. Gak-ja. Okay.

And there's two Gak-jas. One is Rig-pi-gak-ja, which is like a self-existent thing that never was there. Like a two-headed purple elephant that is rampaging through this room at this moment is a Rig-pi-gak-ja.

That's the one, if it's not there, it's emptiness. Okay. Then there's the Lam-kigak-ja, which is that which the path is meant to eliminate, which is your tendency to think that way.

Does that exist? Yeah, that Gak-ja exists. So sometimes the Gak-ja is simply what you want to eliminate in your own mind like a bad idea.

And one is a belief in a thing that never was there anyway. You see? A thing that was never there anyway.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Is the Lam-kigak-ja only Gak-ja after it's eliminated?

[Speaker 1]
No, Gak-ja, Gak-ja is also the future tense, to be eliminated. That thing which you would like to get rid of. You see what I mean?

So, yeah. For longer than one life? Of what?

Man-Lam? Gom-Lam. Every Lam has its own Gak-ja.

Like the Gak-ja for the first Lam is what? Sok-Lam. Sok-Lam.

What are you trying to overcome? Yeah, believing in this life that things could work out somehow. If you just did more yoga, if you just changed your eating habits, you know, if you just, you know, found a better friend, you know, everything would be different.

You see, that's like the Gak-ja for the first path. You see? So, like that.

[Speaker 2]
But you have to have, would it even be considered on that path?

[Speaker 1]
In the Mahayana track. Okay? We're talking all the tracks, all three tracks.

Okay, here we go. So, they are equivalent in what they seek to eliminate. Okay?

In this context, you kind of have to understand when they say listeners and self-made Buddhas, they're mostly talking about Arhats on those tracks. It could be just some schmuck who just got tired of life and didn't get anywhere else yet. They can't practice Mahayana.

They can't practice Bodhisattva stuff. Right? They can teach it to others, but they can't do it themselves.

Oh, we had that debate in the debate ground. Like, how could you ever get enough good karma to see emptiness directly if you don't care about other people? But it's a tenet of our...

Sorry? Oh, they can practice everything else. Yeah, sure.

For a hundred great eons. Billions upon billions of years.

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
Well, you know, it's a common, if you read the Abhidharmakosha, they have Bodhisattvas in there. You know? That's a whole debate.

And again, in this school, what distinguishes you might be more what? How you think about emptiness. You see?

So, be careful. Be careful. You know?

But I think generally they wouldn't think they were... Is the third turning of the wheel the highest? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, all those guys think that the third one was the highest. You see what I mean? So, I assume they think that the way they heard it is the highest.

You know? I don't think they'd say, oh, all those Mahajanis could prosecute because they really got it down and we just didn't get there yet. They say they're nihilists.

They say, you've gone too far. You know? You're not middle way anymore.

You're way off the middle way. You're just some extremist. You know?

Okay. Okay. Here we go.

Sure. That's the definition. Yeah.

To get to that track. Oh, when you give up a belief that this life is going to work out if you just took some different vitamins, then you're... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the bhangja to get on the track. The gacja to get on the track. Okay.

Here we go again. One, two, three. One, two, three.

Okay. I'll split it so it's not quite so long. Okay?

Cool?

[Speaker 2]
What is a respective enlightenment?

[Speaker 1]
There's three enlightenments. And this is the answer to the debate question if you want to debate. Excuse me.

I can't hear you. They're at home like... I always used to ask Rinpoche why they call it Perfectly Enlightened Buddhahood.

I mean, it's either Buddhahood or it's not. Is it like, can you have imperfectly enlightened Buddhas? And he said, yeah, you can.

And... No, that's the... the end or the goal of the two lower tracks is called changchug.

It's called enlightenment, but it's only nirvana. It's just called enlightenment. Okay?

So there's three changchugs. There's three enlightenments. So they want to get to...

A listener wants to get to a listener's nirvana. A pratyekabuddha wants to get to a pratyekabuddha's nirvana. Can you relate that precisely to the three scopes in the Lamrim?

No. It's a little tricky. You can debate that.

Like, could you say that listeners only want to reach freedom from the three lower realms and self-made Buddhas only want to reach freedom from samsara and then bodhisattvas want to reach freedom from... liberation from all living beings. It doesn't quite...

You have to debate that sometimes. It's a good debate. But if that's not true, then how do you distinguish the two enlightenments of the two lower tracks?

Yeah. I don't know. You have to work on that.

So, Geshe-la, when you say they've seen emptiness in the debate, you're talking about whether they've seen emptiness directly or not. Is it there? Is it the emptiness that they think is a direct perception of emptiness?

Yeah. Yeah. You could say that from the Prasangika point of view.

Right. Okay. If you're wearing a Prasangika hat.

But not the emptiness that they thought was emptiness. Not that they think there is. They think there's three.

[Speaker 2]
How do you know our system, the Prasangika system, self-made Buddhas and listeners have realized emptiness?

[Speaker 1]
The same emptiness. Yeah. Which is only one of three emptinesses in their school.

[Speaker 2]
But that's their school.

[Speaker 1]
Actually, in their schools they don't perceive emptiness.

[Speaker 2]
I thought we were arguing from our school.

[Speaker 1]
We are. No, that's where you learn about the sixteen aspects of the Four Noble Truths. It's in the Abhidharmakosha.

So, of course, they believe that. Somebody saw it, right? And it's in the Abhidharmakosha.

That's the main root text.

[Speaker 2]
No, they have seen emptiness directly.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. But not the emptiness they thought was emptiness before they saw it. There's a debate in the monastery.

Is everybody who's perceived emptiness a Prasangika? Yeah, you have to be. I mean, there's a debate like that.

They'd have to be. You see what I mean? You couldn't, after that, you couldn't think you were something else.

You see what I mean? It's interesting. Okay.

Hang on a second. Yeah. Of what?

[Speaker 2]
Selflessness.

[Speaker 1]
They're careful to say, they're careful not to call all three degrees of emptiness emptiness. Like, I call it that just because I don't want to go through it with you. But if you want to go through it, they call it the three degrees of a lack of self, of true nature.

And only the third is called emptiness in their school. Only the highest one is called emptiness. You're going to get that in Bhagavad Gita, so I'm not going to.

She'll probably kick me if I tell you. Right? Is that in Bhagavad Gita tonight?

If she finishes it, it's in Bhagavad Gita tonight. No, she'll cover it quite nicely. Stay there.

Okay, here we go. Ready? One, two, three.

But that's not a clap point, I think. I don't want to say they undertake to teach dependent origination because that would imply that sometimes they're not successful. How do you want to say it?

Oh, I like said amount, yeah. Who did that?

[Speaker 2]
Good, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Then they said about... When Buddhas appear in any particular place, they set up shop, right? They said about...

No, they really do.

[Speaker 2]
They said about...

[Speaker 1]
Unmistaken. Totally not mistaken. Flawless?

That's pretty good. They understand about giving their flawless teachings, presenting. We'll talk about this later.

You know, those who Dzogpa Gyur, they become complete in every way or something like that. They reach their... How do you want to say it?

They reach their... It's like perfection. It means completeness, though.

Pinnacle means height. This means like everything's there. They reach their...

It means like all the stuff they need is there. Yangdapa Dzogpa, Samyak Sambuddha. They reach their final completion or something like that?

Okay. But it has to imply completeness. It has to imply completeness.

[Speaker 2]
I know.

[Speaker 1]
Total completion? Ultimate completion?

[Speaker 2]
It's not ultimate.

[Speaker 1]
No, but they think it is. Well, just say Yangsa Dzogpa.

[Speaker 2]
We'll say there and get out of it, don't we? That's a good...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. We'll stick that in for now. So why did he say that?

Why did he give that quotation? Because he wanted to prove that that listeners and self-made Buddhas are born from Buddhas. Because the Buddhas talk.

Then they... And then Jetsun Kappa loves this. He loves this quotation.

He uses this quotation all the time. Why do you think he does? This quotation in particular.

Yeah, Tösam Gom. Because there was this big deal in Tibet like, Oh, Satori, you know, you're just chopping wood and suddenly you're a Buddha, you know. And he said, No, no, there's steps.

There's Lam Ki Rim Pa, Lam Rim. You see? First you hear about it.

Then you go home and think about it. Then you go meditate on it in retreat and then you see emptiness, you see? And he's like really big on that.

So here he's using... What scripture is he quoting here? Autocommentary.

Which one? Master Chandrakirti, right? When he says the Autocommentary in this book, it's Master Chandrakirti.

Which is accepted by how many Tibetan schools? All Tibetan schools. So don't give me this stuff about you don't need stages or steps.

You don't have to go through a process of learning it, going home, thinking about it, thrashing it out and then meditating on it. You see what I mean? So don't give me that.

It's in the scriptures, you know. Master Chandrakirti thought it was important, you know. And that's why he chose this quotation a lot.

We'll have to go look for it and give the citation, right? So here we go. By the way, those of you who know Tibetan, Sempa here is a little bit tricky.

Why? Say again? Yeah.

It could be the definition of karma, right? What is it? Right?

Sempa isn't the same as sem. What's sem? Mind.

And what's... How do you say contemplate in the three steps? Te?

Sam. Besam. You don't say sem.

You never say sem. But he said sem. Okay?

So get used to it. In some of the old books they don't say sam, they say sem or sempa and you have to know it's not, it's not the one that means to direct the mind. It's just thinking about.

It's a verb. It's minding. You know, thinking about something.

And you just have to know. If it's in between te and gom, it's probably the... You see?

Then you just get good at that. You see what I mean? You're like, oh, he's talking about te sam gom.

What's... Do you know what Sarah May's real name is? It's te sam norbu ling.

The Jewel Island of te sam. But they didn't say gom. I don't know why.

Okay. Maybe you're supposed to come to Diamond Mountain to get the gom. I don't know.

Anyway. Maybe it's assumed. I don't know.

Oh, wait. We're looking this up. We don't want to look for Gombe Rimbale.

Why? We'll hit every quotation from Bhavana Krama. Because it's the name of a book.

It's the book you're studying in book gym, okay? I won't embarrass you. Okay.

You see? The last four words of that phrase happen to be the name of that famous book. So, you're going to hit like 10,000 of them.

You don't want to go there. We'll do those two and see what we hit. Can we restrict the search?

Is it kangyur tengyur sumbu? I'll give you a clue. It's Master Chanakirti's auto-contact.

Tengyur.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Abhidharma. Perfection of Wisdom. Vinaya.

Uma. Madhumika. Okay.

Here we go. Ah, that's not it. I just happen to know what's not it.

So, here we go. Okay. See this little thing up here?

Ujukjava. Umalajupidava. That was the old days when you had to put the file in eight characters.

So, you could say Ujukjava. Umalajupidava. Ranga.

Umalajupidanga. Auto-commentary to the Madhumika avatar. Okay.

So, here's the quotation. You know, it's just fun to check it out. Make sure it's spelled the same.

Okay. Wait a minute. This is not the same one.

Sorry. Yeah. Right?

No. That's not it. Here it is.

I'll read it. You tell me if I miss anything. What is it?

Sangye Namjungwa Gyalpa Na.

[Speaker 2]
Go down from the arrow.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. He totally quoted correctly. Okay.

So, now all we need is what? The folio. Do what?

Go up to 20A. Okay. Not very far into the text.

That's the beginning of the text. Okay. Is it 20...

[Speaker 2]
Was it 22A? 22A.

[Speaker 1]
22A. 22A.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. It's hard to see.

[Speaker 1]
TV3 at 16.

[Speaker 2]
Can I put it? Yeah. Shanda 15 has one I marked.

[Speaker 1]
Sorry?

[Speaker 2]
Shanda 15.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, you're right. Kirti. Kirti.

By the way, I wanted to change something up above. Where was that? Maybe I won't calculate it.

Sorry? Let me see. Yeah, I think I can.

Okay. Okay. Oh, this is cool.

I'll give you the debate. I'd rather get credit for it myself. Let's see.

Master Chandrakirti doesn't know what he's talking about. Yeah, he doesn't know what he's talking about because he said that listeners and self-made Buddhas are born from Buddhas. Yeah.

Kathmatthu. Yeah. It's true he did say that.

Kathmatthu means it's true he did say that they are born from... Listeners and self-made Buddha arhats are born from Buddhas, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. Yes, it does because because listeners and Buddhas, self-made Buddhas aren't born from Buddhas.

You should say Dhammadu. Right? Of course, that's wrong.

Oh, you're telling me they are born from Buddhas? So, I guess there's no reason why Rangyels are called Rangyels. I guess there's no reason why self-made Buddhas are called self-made Buddhas.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Because they're not self-made Buddhas. They're not self-made Buddhas. So, they are self-made Buddhas.

So, in the lifetime in which they achieve their goal, arhatship, they don't depend on another person as a teacher. So, they're not born from Buddhas' teachings.

[Speaker 2]
She cheers.

[Speaker 1]
Because they don't have a Buddha as a teacher in that life. In the life that they are born as an arhat of that tribe, they're not taught by any other person. Not in their final life.

No, that's what Rangyel means. That's what self-made and self-made Buddha means. They've had billions of teachers in their past lives.

In the final life, before they become an arhat, they don't have a teacher. They don't need a teacher. I don't think.

No, I don't know. No, at some point in their life, the rikpa se, the seed opens, cracks open. Well, definitely not a Buddha.

Let's say that. They definitely don't mean a Buddha. They really don't.

[Speaker 2]
So, why did he want to divide them?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so, I guess Master Chandrakirti just didn't know. He called them... No, no.

He didn't even call them self-made Buddhas. That's probably why he didn't call them self-made Buddhas. He called them...

mid-level Buddhas. So, he probably just didn't know about the self-made part.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, well, here's the debate. So, they got enlightenment in this lifetime without ever having gotten teachings.

[Speaker 1]
No, they got, they got teachings in past lives. I admit that. Countless past lives they got teachings.

[Speaker 2]
So, they were born from Buddha?

[Speaker 1]
But in this lifetime that they reached their goal, they are not born from Buddha. They're not born from Buddha. They're Rangal.

They're Rangal.

[Speaker 2]
So, the seeds from this lifetime are the only seeds that count? I don't get it. No, I don't.

[Speaker 1]
Of course. I mean, would you say, I'm the son of this mother, you know, if I didn't come out of her womb, you see what I mean? I mean, in a normal sense.

Well, not... But I mean, you know, if it happens like 20 zillion eons later, then everything that happened to them made them a Buddha, you know what I mean? Not in the lifetime in which they become, in which they reach the result of their own path, which is really a nirvana, right?

How can you be, how can you say like, she's pregnant and she had a baby but it didn't come out in this lifetime? It just... No, it just doesn't make any sense, right?

Well, then you could say they were born from all the enemies they ever met, from all the schmucks they ever met, you see what I mean? So schmuck, they're schmuck born, you know? I mean, come on.

If it doesn't happen in some proximity to the teaching of dependent origination, then anything could be, you know, kangten gen, you should learn that. Say kangten gen. Whatever the hell you want to say, just say it, you know?

Kangten gen, you know?

[Speaker 2]
No, I didn't say that.

[Speaker 1]
He said that, not me.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, so there's no such thing as listeners? No, but they have lower-level notation.

[Speaker 1]
I don't think so. Now you're confusing three sculptures with three... with the three trams, you mean?

That's...

[Speaker 2]
Well, let's see.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, I'll just... We'll see what they say.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, did we read this together? We didn't. We didn't?

Okay. Here we go. Did we?

No? One, two, three. Now suppose...

[Speaker 2]
Hello. Hello.

[Speaker 1]
Where's he headed? Yeah, but. What's the but going to be?

[Speaker 2]
That's the kyan.

[Speaker 1]
What? Yeah, good, good, yeah, good. But there's no such thing as a self-made Buddha of that kind.

Right? In that same life. The trick is that same life trick, right?

Got it? Right? So right here, he said in the very same life.

That's the, that's the key to the debate. If he didn't show that in, the guy would be off the hook, right? He said in the same life, I admit that listeners could go through this process and get enlightened.

So I admit that they are born of the evil ones. Yeah, I admit they are born because in the same life that they heard this stuff, they got their enlightenment. Now, you know what he's going to say.

Let's just cut this. You see what I mean? Save time.

When I was doing the logic course 13, I made macros that put, it can't be the case. And for the reason that, and then it's just like, I just did macros for the whole thing. Then I finished it in like three days or something.

It was really funny. Okay. But there's no such thing as self-made Buddhas who are listeners.

And who attain that particular enlightenment in the very same, in the very same life, right? Was it lifetime?

[Speaker 2]
Is it what? Life?

[Speaker 1]
Okay. But there don't exist any self-made Buddhas who are listeners. Well, we're getting there.

What would the opposite of that be? Yeah, which is a name. It's a synonym.

It's a synonym for a… You mean… I'm sorry, who are still learning.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah.

What was it? Who are… Yeah, who are still learning.

No, I'm sorry. Listeners who are still learning. And then I have to say self-made Buddhas who are still learning, right?

What's that mean, still learning? It's a technical term. What's a milopa?

Yeah, milopa means you've reached the fifth path. You're an arhat, okay? So then he's just…

For some reason he's going to get in trouble in the debate if he allows that there could be an arhat already. You see what I mean? So he has to say who are still on the…

not on the fifth path yet, okay? He just… He knows that someone's going to attack him if he doesn't say that.

He just put that in, okay? But there don't exist any self-made Buddhas who are still learning and who attain their particular enlightenment in the very same life that the Lord of the Able Ones came… comes?

[Speaker 2]
No, it's the same one with the pen. …who have attained the enlightenment that the Lord of the Able Ones came and taught them.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, I think that's it. Let me see. Came and taught them.

No, it's not the same. We can't do that. Sorry.

We've got to put that in or else Jetson Copper wouldn't be happy. Let's see if it may… But there don't exist any self-made Buddhas who are still learning and who have attained their particular enlightenment in the very same life that they went through the three steps of listening to, contemplating and meditating upon profound dependent origination.

That's fine, yeah. Who did that? Okay.

Sorry?

[Speaker 2]
I have a question about what is still learning referring to?

[Speaker 1]
They're not arhats yet. Now, you know, why he said that, you'd have to debate it. But he's covering himself for something.

Still learning means they haven't reached the fifth path yet. It could be some technical problem with… It might be that…

Can you be… Can you be on a Rangal track? Can you be on a self-made Buddha track and be a non-learner before you reach the end of the track?

Can you be on a self-made Buddha track and still be a… and be a non-learner before you reach the end of that track? Menlang ngundusonga.

Say menlang… ngundusonga. You can go on a listener track, become an arhat, and then move up to the…

and then move up to the self-made Buddha track. You see? Then you're not learning anymore.

You're a non-learner. You see? Now…

Now, is that guy… Now, this is not applied to him. You see, as he reached…

You see, he's covering himself for something. You can debate it in the debate ground. He's covering himself for something.

You think about it. Come to the debate ground with it. Yeah, well, at your work party.

Got it? Got it? So, there's no such thing as a self-made Buddha who, in that same lifetime, reaches their goal.

So, you can't say they're born from the Buddha. Got it? I'll say…

I'll say… I'll cover everything. Now, there are listeners who reach their goals in the same lifetime that they hear these teachings from Lord Buddha.

But there's no such thing as a self-made Buddha who reaches their goal in the same lifetime that they hear these teachings from Lord Buddha. Why? They're ranga.

They're self-made. What does self-made mean? See, he's assuming you know.

He didn't go through it. He's assuming you know. What do you know?

In this lifetime, they didn't have a teacher. They didn't have a direct teacher in this lifetime. All right?

So, they can't be born from a Buddha. Okay? What are we going to say?

I don't know. Khyon me te. You got to learn this.

It's in the colloquial. Say, Khyon me te. No problem.

Okay? Khyon means a fault or an imperfection. Khyon me te means no problem.

There's a joke with the Tibetans in India that if an Indian like... No, like if an Indian car repairman says, Khyon me te to you, then you're in trouble. Okay.

No problem. Can you have this done by Wednesday? No problem.

Khyon me te. Khyon me te. Kyon me te.

I'm going to just translate this so we can finish on time. We have four minutes. Anyway, okay, and this is two weeks.

Who? That's Kathi. That's Kathi.

What's that mean? The other guy said, the other guy said, Oh look, they can't, they can't be born from Buddhists. Why?

Because they're Rangyal, they're self-made Buddhas. And then we come back with, that's no problem. Like they hear it in one life, they contemplate on it, they meditate.

Then the next life they get their own Buddhahood. They get their own enlightenment. That's not a problem.

I didn't let you say it because I was Kachig.

[Speaker 2]
So Kachig won't be convinced by that argument.

[Speaker 1]
Oh yeah, why should he be convinced? Why should he be convinced? Because we talked louder than him.

No, he's going to, but our side is going to quote a scripture to say that that's enough to count as born from. That's where he's going. That's where we're going.

And we're out of time. But he's going to quote several scriptures that nail it down. At this point we haven't proven it yet.

At this point we're not clear yet. So our side keeps going for a while. I'll give you the same old lecture.

Now you may think this is all just a bunch of splitting hairs. But what happens to 99% of all Tibetan Dharma students in the West is that they think emptiness is one of the lower kinds of emptiness and they blow it. And then in this lifetime they don't make it.

And then they die and they go to a lower realm. So that's all. It's not splitting hairs.

It's like you've got to know the difference. It's your life. Your life's at stake.

Everyone thinks they know something about emptiness. And then they just get 99% of the time it's one of the five lower ones, which is not emptiness. You see what I mean?

And then you've got to acquaint yourself with the wrong ones to know that you're on the right one. And so you guys will know when you get it because you'll know it's not like, Oh, I'm not in control of this. Or me and this thing came from the same place.

Or they could have called this by any other name. All those ideas that people have from having gone to the weekend seminar by ex-llama, you'll understand that those are not the emptiness that will save you. And that's the reason to split the hairs.

It's not just some philosophical... They had a word for it in college, I won't say. But it's very important.

It's very important. You've got to apply it to your own life immediately. You know what I mean?

You've got to apply it to your own life immediately. Okay? Okay.

Here we go.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, cool.

[Speaker 1]
By the way, the next subject he's going to go on to is the idea that you could collect the karma which is definitely going to ripen in your next life. You see what I mean? Which is not so bad.

It's like the seven lifetimes thing. It's the idea that he's going to start explaining that idea that there's certain kinds of karma that if you could pull it off in this lifetime, even if you couldn't get a result in this lifetime, it would be... It's called Ngepa.

It's fixed. It's guaranteed. 100% guaranteed.

In the very next lifetime, it will have its result. You see, that's... And that's a big deal if you think of your life in terms of countless lifetimes.

If you could pull off something for sure by next lifetime without any effort in the next lifetime, you see what I mean? It just happens, then that'd be cool. If you couldn't do better than that, you see what I mean?

So, he's going to talk about that idea next time.