Вордсмит — Книга 2: Трудные места школы «Ум только», занятие 52

[Speaker 1]
Did your boss send me a nice letter about the book I sent him? Is it big enough? As big as a truck?

Geshe-la, you have to praise Geshe-la. He has to send Geshe-la, wow, that's so cool. I also love the picture of him in the Korea outfit.

I guess it's Korea outfit. Very handsome. Okay, Ward, you ready?

Yeah, can you hear me? My sound, something's going on with my sound. Maybe your daughter burned your ears or something.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, we can hear you.

[Speaker 1]
You want to talk about your book and can you talk about how it's different from your first book? Yeah, but I have to move positions, Geshe-la. My speakers are acting weird.

Hold on, please. Sorry. Okay.

I'll eat pizza while I'm waiting.

[Speaker 2]
All right.

[Speaker 1]
Sorry about the lighting. I had to move. You want me to talk about?

So you already translated a very deep book about mind only school. I think it's the best book ever translated about the mind only school called The Golden Key. Why are you doing another book?

Because I am a masochist. For all sentient beings. No, we originally started this book that we're studying now, which is a commentary on the root text on the mind only school that Jason Copper wrote about 600 years ago.

And then me and you were having a hard time with it. So we actually went to The Golden Key as a way of getting assistance and it worked. He said I'm going to write a commentary that you can just read and he was not lying.

And so after we completed it, what happened there is we were able to translate the root verses based on his commentary and then insert them back into this commentary by Jason Copper and auto commentary and it's been a great aid and but there's a lot of points that The Golden Key did not go into because he kept it kept it very brief. He kept it very simple for for me from my simple mind. And and so we're going to we're going deeper now with what we know and yeah, it's good.

I'll say one thing about the book that you're doing now. We were not ready to do it before and that's very unusual for me. I rarely find a book that I cannot read and it was too difficult.

And so we went to an easier commentary and we learned it for five years or something and then we published it even the easier commentary is the best mind only book that I know of in English and that gave us courage to try the more difficult book, but I'd like to say one thing about Tsongkhapa's book about the mind only school. If you understand it, I would say there's nothing about the mind only school you don't understand. So, you know, it's it's really deep and it's really it's really perfect.

So, you know, if you have the courage to work your way through Tsongkhapa's own verses about the mind only school, you can understand any mind only book. Okay, so we kind of keep that in mind when you feel lost or you feel overwhelmed. If you can understand Tsongkhapa about the mind only school, it's the best book about the mind only school and then any other book you can understand.

The ancient mind only books are extremely difficult like Vasubandhu's mind only poetry, which Master Word tackled, is extremely difficult and you kind of have to go backwards. You have to do the easier commentary to Tsongkhapa, then you have to do Tsongkhapa, and then you can go back and deal with Vasubandhu or Sangha when they're teaching mind only because it's extremely difficult. The root text is extremely difficult.

There's a project. There's a translation project similar to ours and they are doing the 10-year first. They're doing the ancient classics first, which I think is extremely difficult.

I don't know if it's even possible. You can't understand them without going back through the lineage. It's totally impossible and it won't be correct.

It cannot be correct. I wouldn't even try it myself. I would finish after Tsongkhapa commentary, then I would finish the Tsongkhapa commentary, and then I'd have the courage to go to the Indians.

Because don't forget the Indians are also translations. So they're not even in their own language. So they're even more difficult.

It's kind of crazy to tackle an ancient, a thousand-year-old translation of a book and go straight to the... It's kind of very difficult to be correct. Let me guess it's possible.

All right, so let's go to the book. I think we're here. Are we?

Okay, you read slowly and I will muffle something if it's wrong. I agree. I agree.

So he described though, what's a Wangtopi Sempa? A Bodhisattva on the eighth level or higher. Good.

And it's called a Bodhisattva who has Wangtopi. What's that mean? Power.

Yeah, who has gained great power. So that's an unusual expression that you guys haven't heard before. But it means a high, high Bodhisattva.

When a Bodhisattva passes the seventh Bodhisattva level, they no longer have the seeds for misunderstanding things. And for them, that's the equivalent of Arhat. Okay, so do Bodhisattvas reach Arhat?

We don't normally talk about it. But when they reach eighth level higher, they are Arhat. But they haven't...

They reached a kind of nirvana, but they're still going... They're going to still work to get to Buddhahood. Okay, so what's the status of their kunshi?

That's the question here. What's the status of their foundation consciousness? Do they still have one or not?

[Speaker 3]
Nothing in the fridge.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, Chloe said nothing, no seeds in the fridge. What do you think, Word? I'll ask you, does a high Bodhisattva...

And then he adds here, or an Arhat, meaning a lower Arhat, okay? Does a high Bodhisattva, who's already reached nirvana on the Mahayana level, or an Arhat at the lower levels, who's already reached nirvana, do they still have foundation consciousness? They do, but it doesn't have negativity that it did.

So that's the debate. It's a huge debate. It's a very bitter debate, okay?

If they don't have kunshi, if they don't have foundation consciousness, then where are their seeds staying? If they do have foundation consciousness, then they have misunderstanding. Because foundation consciousness is misunderstood by ignorance.

In the Mainomi school. It's what you think is myself. So it's kind of a conundrum.

If you reach nirvana, do you still have a foundation consciousness? If you do have one, then that's the thing you misunderstand in the Mainomi school, and that's ignorance. But an Arhat supposedly got rid of ignorance.

If you don't have one, then do you have a full mental set? Which is called the eight consciousnesses. Six sense consciousnesses, negative consciousness, and foundation consciousness.

Do they have a full head or not? Is the Arhat missing something in their brain? Because if you say they have all eight, the seventh and eighth are mixed up with ignorance.

Number seven is called negative consciousness. It focuses on the refrigerator and takes it to be me. If you still have those two, you still have ignorance, which means you cannot be an Arhat because you didn't break the first link of the Wheel of Life.

But if you don't have them, or what? You lobotomy? You took out two-eighths of your mind?

Can we still call those people nam che gyepo? All eight consciousnesses. And here it is.

So in their gyu, do they have nam che gyepo? And by the way, Word, I think I will read it as gyepo. I checked some carvings of it.

And I think we can stick with gyepo. Are you still there, Word? Yeah, I'm listening.

Okay. Do they have la min kin nam she? The ripened part of the foundation consciousness?

Exactly. So there's two halves of foundation consciousness. There's the refrigerator, and there's the seeds in the refrigerator.

Okay. Does an Arhat still have the refrigerator part? They may not have the seeds, right?

They may not have the seeds that are going to ripen one way or another. But do they still have the half? Do they still have the refrigerator half?

And do they still live? Do they still exist? Because the lower school says...

No, they walk main. Yeah, they say when you reach ultimate nirvana, your mind stops, and your body stops. That's Abhidharma system.

When you reach nirvana, your mind stops and your body stops, and that's nirvana. So he says, well, what's the mind-only guys going to say? Do you still have any mind?

Yeah, you got all eight. Oh, so you still have the bad seeds, and you're still misunderstanding the bad sides. Some bad seeds with consciousness number seven.

And he says, well, we just say eight. We still say you have a full set, and you didn't lose any, but maybe they're not active or something like that. Then he says, by the way, in the Abhidharma school system, an Arhat just blinks out.

They just disappear. Here he says, sam kyi mi khyapay chi po'a yu. The type of death and moving on that they experience is inconceivable.

Yeah, they do go on. They still live, and they still come to the end of their life, and they still go somewhere else later. And it's unbelievable.

Okay, who's that? Who said that? That's the mind-only answer.

Okay, yeah, they got rid of their foundation consciousness. They got rid of the part of them which misunderstands the foundation consciousness, but we still call them a full set. And they have kind of a special kind of state of mind that allows them to, I don't know, go to a Buddha paradise or something like that.

But, lenpay nam she she ser. We call it lenpay nam she. And I take it to be kyewa lenpa, word...

Oh, the taken birth? Yeah, the chi po'a. Chi po'a means they still die, they still move to another rebirth.

We call it, we call it lenpay nam she. Lenpay nam she means taking consciousness. Taking consciousness.

And it means taking birth consciousness. They still have that. But we don't say kun she.

We don't say, we don't say foundation consciousness anymore. Do they continue? Yes.

Do their seeds cause them to continue? Yes. Do they take another life?

Yes. Do they move into some kind of paradise? Yes.

Do the seeds that push them into that paradise come out of their foundation consciousness? No. They don't have one anymore.

Okay, got it? Cool? All right, please keep reading.

And Ben Kramer is going to criticize your pronunciation, even if it's correct. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Yeah, and this is, this sentence is extremely difficult because of the spelling error here. It says the opposite of what he means.

Okay? And if you don't know Tibetan extremely well, you will never understand this statement. so chirul means the other debater, or the outside, which is important in the mind-only school.

And it doesn't say that. The carving doesn't say that. The carving says chir, which just means because.

Okay? And it's hopeless. Okay?

I mean, it's very confusing. You have to read so much scripture that it feels wrong. And then you go check a carving.

So anyway, and you also have to know a word that this is a kachig. What's that mean? Some wise guy comes along and starts saying weird stuff.

This is supposed to be a wrong statement, but they didn't tell you. They didn't say kachig nare. They didn't say here's an argument.

They just jump into it. Okay? That's Tsongkhapa.

He doesn't give you much help. Okay? Okay.

So he says those Wangtopa is a short for what word? Wangtope Sempa. Good.

Changchi Sempa. Bodhisattva at a high level. Eighth bodhisattva level or higher.

You become a bodhisattva at which bodhisattva level? One. One.

Okay, but now they're at eight, you know. Supposedly they have no more ignorance at all. Don't you become a bodhisattva at level zero though?

Yeah, you could say bamboo, sugar cane. So he says, now it's very important that the other guy's talking. Okay, if you don't know that you never understand this sentence.

He says, let's talk about those high bodhisattvas. Let's talk about those jachombas, word. Yeah, the enemy destroyers.

They also don't have minds. Yeah, I guess you're saying they don't have any mind at all. They have no awareness at all.

You must be going back to Abhidharma. You must be saying they blink out, you know. And we're like, no, we didn't say that.

Why do you think we said that? He says, GKDU, and then he quotes a scripture that says, CI PHYIR SEMS SHES KYANG BYAS SHES NA Why can you call anything sem? Why can you call anything sem?

Mind. Why can you call anything mind? PHYIR KYI BAG CHAGS KYI SA BON NA MTSO RNAM KYI KUN DU SAG PA'I PHYIR Because it's a big collection of all kinds of savas.

So seeds or... Yeah, seeds. Yeah, and bag chags.

And seeds. This is not dharma. This shows all the stuff in the universe, okay?

And super sexy, super sexy here. SAG This is a pun in Sanskrit, and it doesn't come through in the Tibetan. He says, why do you call something mind?

Because it's crammed full of mental seeds. But the word for crammed full in Sanskrit is UPA-CITTA. And the word for mind is CITTA.

It's a pun. And it doesn't come in the Tibetan. And if you don't know that, this whole sentence doesn't mean anything.

It's called... Here he says, it's called sem because it has bag chags. A collection of bag chags.

It means nothing in Tibetan. It's called mind because it has a whole pile of seeds in it. But the whole pun is missed.

The pun is, it's called CITTA because it UPA-CITTAs all those vasanas. Okay? It's called mind because it's a mind...

Yeah, it's a joke. Okay, got it? Okay.

Now, what's the other guy saying, Word? You just contradict the whole meaning of the word... Mind.

Mind. Because according to you, there's no UPA-CITTA. There's no collection.

There's no collection of seeds according to you. How can you say it's a CITTA if there's no UPA-CITTA? How can you say the Arhat has a mind, or the High Bodhisattva has a mind, but they don't have any collection of seeds when the word collection means mind?

How can it be UPA-CITTA without the CIT? Yeah, it's so cool. The debate is so cool.

That guy is really cool. He says, SAKPE CHER. SAKPE CHER means...

CITTA is called CITTA because it's UPA-CHER. And by the way, the Tibetans miscarved the whole thing. They said outside the bag or something.

The whole word is wrong. Completely wrong. CHER ROL means out, right?

CHER means because. It's like three mistakes on top of each other. I was dancing around the room.

Veronica is like, what's up? I said, first of all, they made a mistake. Then on the second level they made a mistake.

And there's a level below that they made a mistake. And it's so cool. But you can't explain these things your way.

Okay, so he says, you can't say that High Bodhisattvas and Arhats no longer have a kunshi because the meaning of the word mind is collection of seeds in the kunshi. He said, so how can you say that? Okay, ready?

Yeah, I wrote a note to word. Did you see the verbal replay here? Yeah, yeah, he got it.

I just like to play with word, about word. Okay. Please, you want to have someone read a word and you can check them?

Yeah. I have to keep a close eye on you so I won't be able to eat the salad, but I did eat the pizza. Good.

Oscar, are you there? Do you want to read? Yes.

All right, go ahead. MI TSUNG STE DE'I THUN NYID DE'I THUN NYID DOR LA SEM GYI NAM PAR ZHES PA ZHES KYI DANG NAM ZHIG LE DAG DE'I PAS SEM GYI LUS SONG PA SUNG LA BRTEN NI KUN ZHING NAM ZHIG LA MA GTOGS PA GZHAN LA ZHAG TU ME DE Good. Okay, good.

Nice pronunciation. By the way, this is an extremely difficult word because there's so many mistakes in it also. But MI TSUNG means, look, we're not talking about the same thing.

Yes, mind is called mind because it's a collection of seeds. That's just a pun on citta. Okay, citta.

But the meaning of that is that DOR, what's DOR? Sutra. Sutra states that there are three words for mind.

Sutra states that there are three different words for mind. They are, word? SEM, YI, and NAM PAR ZHES PA Say SEM, YI, NAM ZHIG So these are three different words for mind.

Russian has shown me that there's many words for dark cloudy weather in Russian. Like 20 words. In Buddhism, there's like 20 words for mind and wisdom.

It's funny. Every language has their... The Eskimos have 20 words for snow.

Anyway, there's three. ZHES, which implies that there is a SEM, which is separate from ZHES PA and YI. Sorry, there's a SEM, which is THA DE from YI and NAM ZHIG.

What's that mean, Wu? He's saying there's a distinction between what they call consciousness and what they call mind and what they call SEM, which is also translated as mind in English. I like to call YI thought.

I like to call NAM ZHIG consciousness and I like to call SEM mind. Then he says, look, there's three different meanings there. Then he has a very difficult word here and it's misspelled in the Tibetan.

It's called SEM KYI LUS. What's that mean, Wu? And you have never seen it.

I looked for it and I couldn't find it anywhere. You shouldn't have found it. It literally means mental body or mind.

No, body of the mind, which is impossible. In Buddhism, you never hear that. He says, look, sutra talks about mind, thought, and consciousness, and it's distinguishing a mental body, separate from consciousness and thought.

Mental body. Body. Then that's wrong and it's supposed to be LUS SEMS PA, which means a third body of the mind.

A third body of the mind. GSUM LA When sutra talks about a third body of the mind, meaning a third form of mind, what else can they be talking about except for? KUN SHES Quotation consciousness.

He says, look, that quotation you pulled out about CHED and CHED DA, that's just talking about SEMS, which is CHED DA. But it's not talking about YI, which is MANAS, and NAM SHES, which is VISNYANA. Those are different.

Got it? There is a third. By the way, I found a reference word.

Here's one. Here it is, by the way. KUN SHES RNAM PAR BSHAD PA MA STOB PAR If you throw out foundation consciousness, where would you ever have a third form of the mind?

Body here means form. If you throw out foundation consciousness, where will you ever find a third form of the mind other than mind and consciousness? What's going to be...

What is it? YI, right? Sorry, SEMS. What's going to be SEMS in the three-part presentation?

YI, thought. NAM SHES, consciousness. And then SEMS, which is mind.

If mind, in this case, doesn't refer to the storehouse consciousness, then what's left? Cool? He says it has to be KUN SHES.

That implies that if an arhat and a high bodhisattva has a mind, then they still have KUN SHES, foundation consciousness, which is what your ignorance is aimed at, which is consciousness number seven, which is called messed-up mind. Messed-up mind looks at the refrigerator and says, that's me, or something like that. That's my self-nature.

That's a self-nature. That's natural. Do you get rid of KUN SHES or no?

At high levels in the mind-only school, do you ever get rid of your KUN SHES? I hope so. Well, the argument up to now has been, yes, you do.

There's no more bad seeds to put in the refrigerator. The refrigerator is empty. So if you want to say you still have an empty refrigerator, okay.

But what's the point? All right? It's very interesting.

,GZIG RGYUD RNAM SHES MA LTOG PA, ,ZHAG TU MED PA, ,KUN SHES RNAM SHES LA MA LTOG PA, ,GZHAN DU ZHLAG ZHAG TU MED PAS, There's nothing other mental... There's no other mental object that you could call self. Why?

Because ,RNAM PAR BSHAD PA, in the mind-only school, consciousness, vijñāna, in the mind-only school, out of the eight, how many are called vijñāna? Eight? No.

Well, one. There's a famous tsokdrug. Oh, out of the...

Wait, wait, hold on. There's eight consciousnesses in the mind-only school. Yes.

Tsokdrug means... Six? Yes, six are standard.

Everybody accepts the six. Abhidharma, sutras, everybody says, they follow the Heart Sutra. ,MING MED NA MA'I LAM MED CAN MED, ,LUD MED YID MED GZUN MED DANG MED, There's six consciousnesses.

The mind-only school keeps the six. Everybody else says there's only six. The mind-only school says you got six plus two.

Why do you want to add two? Well, we got this number seven called YI. YIN YI YIN YI, messed up YI.

Okay, so look, you got six numbers here about Vaisnava. Then you've got YI, MAN NAS, incensement. And then you have a sutra that says you better have NAM SHES, YI, and SEMS. So, so who's SEMS?

KUN ZHI is the only thing left. Right. Don't tell me you can't have KUN ZHI.

Don't tell me KUN ZHI has to go away. Why? Six be SEMS, and then NYON YI be YI, and then foundation consciousness be NAM SHES.

Because we call them NAM SHES TSOG DU. But don't they call it KUN ZHI NAM SHES? That was my argument, though.

That's what I just said. The name of the six is NAM SHES TSOG DU. The six, section of six consciousness accepted by all schools.

Then mind-only school only adds NYON YI, MAN NAS, messed up mind, which focuses on KUN ZHI. Look, we used up NAM SHES, Vaisnava. We used up MAN NAS, I see, okay.

Number eight's got to be SEMS. Even though it's no longer a chaita, upacitta, even though there's no collection in it anymore. It's still chaita. Because sutra says you got to have chita, manas, and vijnana.

And we used up the six vijnanas, and we already had the messed up manas, and what's left is SEMS. Number eight's got to be the SEMS. Cool? It's cute. Sure.

Which means when you're an arhat in the mind-only school, on some level, you still have to keep your KUN ZHI. Because we are not Abhidharma, and we don't say you disappear. So you got to have something left, and we say special, special consciousness.

No, he said that. What did he call it? He called it...

What do you call it, Word? He called it LAM GYI MI KHYAB PAS. That's in your Diamond Wheel Contest.

The Inconceivable. Yeah. All right.

Let's keep going. Now, Word, pick us somebody to read and pick on them thoroughly, and I'll eat a salad, and you guys can prove to my wife. Is Roxanna in class?

I don't know. Roxanna, are you here? Yes, sir.

Okay. Word, you got them saying sir to you. They never did that to me.

I paid them. All right. They didn't say sir to me.

Okay. That's true. Didn't we already read this again?

This next one, right? Or did we read this? Yeah, we read that one.

We read this one again. Next one. We did?

Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, here we go.

By the way, there's a quotation that clarifies LAM GYI MI KHYAB PAS, Word, if you're ever interested. Okay. I tried to read it.

I couldn't read it, so that was interesting. I'm going to push this down so your victim can read it easier. Thank you.

Thank you. Okay, victim. Pick somebody you don't like, Word.

I already did. I'm joking. Roxanna, your turn, please.

[Speaker 3]
Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Cool, nice. Very nice. Is that one of your students, Word?

They must have been studying with somebody else. Yeah, it's a Scrippson student. All right, that's honest.

By the way, say hi to my granddaughter. I miss her. Tell her dad that they can send me photos, you know, more than once a year.

I sent you a picture. You didn't say anything. Send me a picture just before term, usually.

I get pictures every day. It's three or four a day. DE LTAR SEMS KYI RTEN.

The meaning of the word sem. KAP DER means what, Word? In that context?

Right. Right. In that context, you should chepa it as sakpa.

You should explain it as collected. Yeah. In that case, the meaning of the word chepa should be explained as pracheta.

Or was it prachet?

[Speaker 2]
Upachit.

[Speaker 1]
Upachit, yeah. Chepa. Here's a soft, what do you call that in Russian?

Conjunctive. I means soft conjunction. Rather.

But. In Paruski, I is nothing. And A means but.

Okay, anyway. CHE DGOS LA KUN ZHI NI. But kun zhi is barchak tam je sakpa.

It's the collector of all the potentials. Yeah, so if anyone's going to be chepa, it should be... Kun zhi.

Kun zhi. Not those consciousness guys, the six. And not those manas guys, mind.

Thought, sorry, thought. Okay, sakpa yin ching. DON DE YID DANG RNAM SHES LA MA TZAM.

That meaning of sakpa is not complete with... With mind or consciousness. Yeah, a thought or consciousness, right?

Thought or consciousness, yeah. Yeah, the feeling of stuff collected together is incomplete in the other two words for mind. Okay, it's only complete in the word chitta, which has its root at the word, the meaning of to be collected together.

So, okay. YANG RGYUD ZAM PA'I NA. If you're thinking like that, YID DANG RNAM SHES LA'I THAR BAS.

Thought and consciousness are then separate. Yeah, if there's a barchak sakpa, which is THAR BAS from YID DANG RNAM SHES. Right, if there's a collector of the seeds or potentials, which is separate from thought and consciousness.

Yeah, if you say this guy has a collection of seeds, but it's not in their thought and it's not in their consciousness, well, where is it going to be? In their kunshi. SAKPA DE DAG BAD MED.

What does it mean? They don't have it. They don't have that collection.

They got rid of it. They don't have anything in their refrigerator. They don't have any more mental seeds in their refrigerator.

Those are good seeds, dirty good seeds and dirty bad seeds. Bad seeds and dirty good seeds. They don't have any of them.

They're all hot. No more rebirth. No more helpless rebirth.

SANGS PA'I YID DANG RNAM SHES LAS GANG NA MED KYANG So they don't have a collection of seeds anymore. KYANG But... Yeah, now here's somebody...

Tsongkhapa's going to sneak out of something. But... Yeah, okay, they don't have a collection anymore.

But... Don't forget the famous expression that says, DE LA DON TONG RNAM PAR SHES The consciousness is what sees the objects. Good.

Consciousness means that which perceives an object. The word consciousness means that which perceives an object. He says, don't forget that.

Why? Why you mention that? DON SANGS PA'I SEMS NI YOD They still have a SEMS, which is SANGS PA, that DON.

And by the way, this is not the DON and DON TONG. The DON and DON TONG? Oh, this is the meaning as opposed to object.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. They still have a mind which is...

is understood as complete in that sense. Okay, perfect answer. Sometimes you do something perfect like once a year or something.

It's an accident. Just monkeys. So, if you define consciousness as the awareness of an object, well, yeah, they still have that.

They still have that. They don't have mind in the sense of a collection. Citta, upacit, of seeds.

But they still have awareness. If you define awareness as the awareness of an object, they still have that. Who's they?

High-level bodhisattvas? THOG PA ZLANG DRAG BCOM PA Yeah. Therefore, SEMS KYI DON, the meaning of the word mind is not limited to...

Collection. Yeah, a bag of seeds. A collection of seeds.

Therefore, KUN ZHIG SBYOG RJE GSUM MA GNYIS LAS GZHAN MA GSUM PA'I PHYIR RO KUN ZHIG SBYOG RJE means descriptions of what constitutes KUN ZHIG. GSUM MA GNYIS LAS GZHAN MA GSUM PA'I PHYIR RO You only got these three or two brief descriptions of what... It's not that you only have one description of what KUN ZHIG is.

Can we say they still have KUN ZHIG if they have perception of objects? They could, but that's not necessarily the case. DKA' PO MA BYUNG Yeah, but you could say that, right?

Because they still have mind. And mind is described as the perception of objects, that's all. Do they still have KUN ZHIG?

What kind of KUN ZHIG are you talking about? Do they still have KUN ZHIG as a big pile of negative karmic seeds? No, they don't still have that one.

Do they still have KUN ZHIG as some kind of awareness? Well, yeah, they could still have that. Okay, all right, that's all.

So it's still a fridge, but it's one of those fridges you find at the dump that doesn't do anything? Hey, hey, you can fix this. You can fix this.

Do you want to throw a monkey wrench into this whole thing? If the KUN ZHIG has an awareness of an object, it has to be a ripening seed in the KUN ZHIG. Whoa.

That was their first argument, right? Do they still have KUN ZHIG? No.

Why? They got rid of all their seeds. Okay, do the seeds create the objects which they perceive?

Yes. Well, then the Abhijan was correct. They disappeared.

When they become Wangtopas, they become middle way, so you don't need a KUN ZHIG anymore. That's what I say to my wife. She disagrees with me just out of kindness.

Who's going to read word? I don't know. Who's here?

Is Erin here? I don't know. Are you here?

That's mean to pick on Erin, but go ahead. In Taiwan. Oh, that one.

I don't know if she's here. I don't know who's here. Venerable Gelze, do you want to read?

Are you available?

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Thank you. Where are we?

KUN ZHIG ZHANG NENG DAG RUNG DU NJOG CHE SEM CHEN KUN THAG DU SPYOR BA MYUN YI DANG KUN YONG GI CHU THAM CHE RGYUN DREG KYI NO BO SPYOR BA THENG PA SA BUM GYI KUN ZHIG GNYIS PO GANG YANG MED PA'I PHYIR RO The miscarving here is brutal.

[Speaker 1]
DREG YANG means moreover. THEG CHEN DU PA, the summary of the Great Array, says that except for KUN ZHIG consciousness, except for foundation consciousness, then SEM GYI MU GSUM PA makes sense. MU ZHIG MU GSUM, a third choice.

We were talking about a third choice. We are talking about it. That's the section we're in.

Yeah, and it's a total misspelling. It's total miscarving. It's supposed to say SEM GYI LUS.

Okay? It's supposed to say a third body of the mind. A third form of the mind.

Let's say form and don't call it body, okay? Remember they kept saying if there's a third form of mind other than consciousness, other than thought, it better be mind. And the only thing left is KUN ZHIG.

KUN ZHIG has to be the mind. GSUM PA MI MIG DE. MI MIG DE means no such thing.

DE LTA BA'I NA, therefore, KUN ZHIG NAM PAR ZHES PA NI SEM GYI Therefore, foundation consciousness is mind. Yeah, it's the only possible candidate for citta, even though it's not upacitta. Yeah, even though it's no longer a collector, it's still the citta.

Yeah, it's still citta even though it's not upacitta anymore because there's no more seeds collected there. Now, without any seeds, how it's going to be a consciousness because consciousness is defined as seeing an object and the objects have to come from seeds. You can figure that out later.

By the way, here's the actual book from the Tengyur. You can see it says Lu Zumba. Oh, yeah.

So it was just a carving error and it's driving you nuts. Somebody noticed it for 500 years. All right.

Who's up next? Rivas? Rivas, are you there?

Let me just hide. Hey, Rivas, we're going to do some music in Guadalajara. Please, please, let's do it.

Okay, Hasso says he'll play guitar. Let's do it. Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Nice.

[Speaker 1]
Very good. This is kind of nasty. I'm going to read your translation here.

Some pundits posit that the right one was... Oh, no. It says, Khenpo Gachik, some wise guys, who really are wise, they say that namin ki cha, as opposed to the...

Namin ki cha. It means the refrigerator. Namin ki cha in this sentence means the part which already ripened.

Don't forget that seeds in the refrigerator are constantly ripening into the walls of the refrigerator. Okay? It's kind of cool.

The old food in the refrigerator is turning into steel walls of the refrigerator. That's what happens in my fridge. We found a...

I won't even tell you about it. So, Khenpo Gachik, namin ki cha, the part that was already ripened, it means the parts of the refrigerator, not the stuff in the refrigerator. They say, when you reach LHAG MA'I MYA'ANG DE YIN THEG MED, When you reach nirvana without remainder in the lower way, DOR PA, NDOR PA, it stops.

Yeah, it stops. According to the THEG MED. According to the Inayana, you reach nirvana, not only do you lose all the seeds in the refrigerator, you lose the refrigerator also.

That makes sense. That's kind of how we think of that nirvana in the lower school. You just disappear.

Poof. Poof. Yeah.

Not poop, sorry. Poof. All right, okay.

All right, let's keep going. Who's going to read? Let's see.

About three minutes, right? Yeah. Time flies when you're having fun.

Yay. Isabel, are you interpreting right now? Are you translating?

[Speaker 3]
Yes, I can read.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, go ahead.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Nice. Good. Okay, so when you say the question, it's a chi, chi means, can I clarify with you a question?

I have a question. When you say the lower schools say that the container disappears with the seeds, when you say that, when you say lower schools, are you talking about the two lower schools of the four schools? And by the way, sometimes do-DE-PA can be do-DE-WA, okay?

It's nasty, sorry. So are you talking about Abhidharma and the logic schools? Is that what you mean?

Or when you say lower schools, are you referring to people on the lower two tracks, which means listeners and self-made Buddhas? Can you clarify? When you say lower guys, are you talking Abhidharma and Sutras?

Or when you say lower guys, are you talking about self-made Buddhas and what's the other? Listeners. Listeners, yeah.

Which one are you talking about? He says, SHES DAG ZHANG means, when Tsongkhapa says something like that, it's tough. He says, we got to look into this, okay?

We got to look into this. When those Indian writers say what happens to your refrigerator when you pass into final nirvana in the lower, in the lower ideas, are they talking about lower schools or are they talking about the lower tracks? And Tsongkhapa says, we better pause and look into that.

And then, what's the... Aren't the permutations of these not mutually exclusive? I mean, can't you be...

Bring it up. No, but I expect you to translate the next, re-translate the next four parts, okay? Okay.

I'm sure. Nice class. Stopped you.

Cool class. Sushimi. Okay.

Thank you. Give a kiss to my granddaughter. I know, tell her you're too cheap to send me a photo, but...

You know, I can't stop thinking about her. Thank you, Geshe-la. Okay, we'll see you guys in the morning.

Go to sleep early. If you don't go to sleep early, you can't understand anything. Even if you go to sleep early, you can't understand anything.

Yeah, I'm teaching class at four for everybody. Hey, Ward, where are you? I'm in Washington State.

Oh, it's really 4 a.m. Oh my gosh. Actually four. You're crazy.

With a Dharma. So, Tibetan beginner and intermediate, four and five. So...

Thank you for doing it, Ward. Thank you for teaching. Uncle Nick, you got anything to tell us about how handsome the teachers are or anything like that?

Just, everybody take a minute to appreciate how handsome and beautiful all of it. Yourselves and our teachers are. And each other.

Anyway, thank you so much, Geshe-la and Michael. Thank you, Ward. Geshe-la is amazing.

Great class. Last class, all classes. Looking forward to tomorrow.

One announcement, I made a few changes on the schedule for those of you who are translating and are paying attention. And those of you who are mixed nuts. To keep these last evening classes more light.

Yeah. As per the request of the boss. Sorry about that, Geshe-la.

All right, I'm not... It's okay. This class, I understood what the heck was going on, but generally it's disaster.

True. Pizza helps, I think. We'll just keep that going.

All right. Let me know if you need anything, Geshe-la and everybody else too. I'll see you guys tomorrow.

Hey, thank you guys for coming.