Вордсмит — Книга 2: Трудные места школы «Ум только», занятие 5

[Speaker 1]
Um, homework. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Good call. Good call.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, exciting.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Mr money share screen. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Homework.

Um, what are the, what are the three objects I were, I were, please go ahead with your homework. Okay. Okay, I'm starting guess.

Can't hear you. Yeah, I'm sorry. Now I can.

Can you do homework. Yeah, I'm starting again. Okay, thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you. What are the three objects apprehended by the foundation consciousness.

So maybe something like the things that you can see here taste touch and smell is one type of object. Yeah, what are those called guns. Yeah, exactly.

And then the sense powers. The one goes. Uh huh.

Yep.

[Speaker 2]
The sentence.

[Speaker 1]
Sentence are the sense powers in this case.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, but they're not.

[Speaker 1]
What's that.

[Speaker 2]
I'm just gonna shut up.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, one clothes are called symptoms, but both is right. Yeah. And anyone know the last one, it's kind of the, the one, I don't remember the word for it but it's like the seed where you're attracted to the idea that you and objects around you to have some essence of their own, something like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

General. Okay. Good job, Tim.

Okay, I included some included. Okay. Um, which one of these is problematic, and why.

Okay. I mean, they all. Because it's.

I mean, I'm just guessing here but the box is the problematic one that you're discussing because it's attachment to seeing things the wrong way. It's forcing you to see the rest the wrong way. That's true.

I don't know if we've discussed we didn't discuss that in this section but what's the thing about seeds. Well, it's not really an object that you'd look at. Yeah, exactly.

And really. Yeah. You don't really see.

Bless you again. Sorry. Problem.

Because even though the foundation conscious they're not seen as seeds. Right. Okay.

Okay, why does this apprehension that have seeds, I just want to give away the answer to question to pose a problem in the formless realm. I'm not sure but I was thinking the last question that we ended the class with was, if this is the case, then in the form and the desire realms you would have the capacity to see all things in the world at any time because if they're in the country. That is the question we we ended with.

But it still doesn't answer why.

[Speaker 2]
There's something like it's the sun compass said it was nothing more than sheer imagination.

[Speaker 3]
What they're what they're apprehended.

[Speaker 1]
Well, what's the thing that typifies the formless realm.

[Speaker 2]
There's no formless. And they're seeing them but it's just pure imagination.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to Flashback for any means, but I'm sure then you guys can debate it. I don't know. I wrote it formless your own beings have a foundation conscious, then in what sense are these considered objects if no objects can appear to them by definition.

By the way, I'll throw in something. There's a there's a thing about mental consciousness in the mind only school relying on names to perceive its object. And at some point Tsongkhapa seems to say, how could you conceptualize a name in the formless realm?

He brings up a problem about it because names, which will learn in the Abhidharma are either sounds or ideas. Okay. Anyway, you can sit with that.

Okay, sitting. Okay. Tibetan words.

Here they are. And in the context of our last class because these could have other meanings. So what's John.

Well, that's a tough one. That's not fair word. I got everything out.

There's there was no new ones. I don't know. If it was me, I would offer 300 bucks.

You can offer 300 bucks. The hard one super hard. Reeboks Reeboks It's super hard.

I like because I don't know. I like learning words, obviously. It's super hard.

Yeah, it's storehouse. It's weird. And it's never a storehouse.

It's usually like cleaning or practicing or something. All right. Nunpa, which I checked, Geshe-la, it can be poke.

This one is poke. Yeah, it can be poke. Yeah.

But in our case, it was something like poke, but not exactly.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
There's a corruption, wasn't it? Or like a adulteration?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it was. It was. Like to stick it in.

It can mean added also. It can mean, you know, somebody's added it on. Yeah, added.

Yeah, exactly. Okay. And then Sheena, I quit from my own edification because I seem to forget it.

And now I'm hopefully not going to forget it. Someone might say. Yeah.

Yeah. That's it. Put in.

Yay. Nice. Nice homework, Word.

Thanks, Word.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, here we go. Let's start the bloodshed. Cheers.

Do I have to? Am I okay? Yeah.

Okay. Screen sharing. Where is that?

Maybe I have to call up your text. Hang on. There we go.

Can you see it? No, you can't see it yet. Yes.

Yes.

[Speaker 2]
Catherine.

[Speaker 1]
Catherine Yan wants us to have sushi first. Oh, that's delicious. Yes.

Yay. Okay. Yay.

This is it right here. Yes. We're on 10th verse.

Can I ask you a question about this? Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
This kept me up after Word's last class. We were talking about foundation consciousness being established based on what it projects and not what it sees, what's coming out, not what's coming in.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, there's gonna be a huge debate right now.

[Speaker 2]
All right, let's do it. We'll just see what happens. I'll complain at the end if I'm helpless.

[Speaker 1]
And trust me, it will go deeper than you ever wanted to go. But we said.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. We said last time that that contradicts Semimikpa, but it doesn't contradict Semimikpa, it just contradicts Selshingjigpa, right? Like, it doesn't contradict, you still can have a pramana, you can still have a perception of kunshi, someone could have a perception of kunshi.

It doesn't contradict how kunshi is established or how things are established, but it does contradict how we talk about mind as rik.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I think, I mean, for me, it's a direction thing. Is the, are awarenesses triggered by objects, or do awarenesses create objects? That, for me, is the direction.

Which direction is it going? Okay, let's get to the text. I'm going to skip the root text, okay, we'll come back to it.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And we've translated it in the past already, anyway. So, okay, Kam Okmanyi, who's your checker appointee? I don't know.

Who wants to do it? No one. Seiji Takahashi.

Yay! Seiji, choose somebody to criticize Word. All right, do I start with Sugeng?

Hey, I have a proposal that Word has to pay $100 for every word he mispronounces. I agree. Yeah, let's do that.

Okay, here we go. Here we go. Okay, cool.

So, does the world and all its contents appear to the kunshi in the lower two realms? Okay, we've been, we spent a long time talking about the formless realm, but let's investigate the desire realm and the form realm, okay? Is it true that all the different objects, ze, stuff, all the different stuff of these two realms, whether it be the place or the people who live in those places, if they do appear to the lower two realms, okay, by realm, okay, by realm, then it should be the case that sukham gyalas, what's that mean, Word?

The form realm pleasure beings. Yeah, to them, danyelwa shud nangwa. The hell should appear.

Yeah, it should appear to them. And then he names a detail of the hell, chak sek. Burning iron, like blazing burning iron.

Yeah, and they say that's the floor, the floor of the hell is made of iron and it's actually in flames, okay? Barwa means burning, sek means burning, okay? So, is it the case, if the kunshi is projecting everything to our awareness, then if it's by realm, then shouldn't all the desire realm beings be able to, shouldn't they perceive all the details of the desire realm, okay?

Jewel Argyro, it would have to be that way. Here we go, whose turn?

[Speaker 2]
Mr. Alejandro Rivas.

[Speaker 1]
Rivas? Rivas, yay! Hola, mija, como estas?

Muy bien. Okay. Okay.

Perfect. Good. If you agree that the hells can appear to form realm gods, okay, then they must have dunyakidungwa, what's that?

The suffering of suffering? The torment of suffering? Yeah, they must have some suffering, okay?

And actually they don't, okay? Usually, okay? Except for the end of their life, okay?

Why should they have suffering? Because kunshi tengdu, with regard to their kunshi, they are having an appearance of nyelwa senyiba. Definitively.

Yeah, the real thing, they're having the real thing, okay? They're, the hell, the real hell is appearing to them. Why?

Because the sovereign se, word.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
I suggest we make a bet, I will fund you.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
A $20 bet, and we want sepa, and we want the word that you shouldn't mispronounce it for. Okay. Two things.

I'll fund it. Okay. And go ahead, anybody.

What is se, and what is it not, if mispronounced?

[Speaker 2]
It's not se.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, what's that mean? It means what?

[Speaker 2]
To fall, or dispel, or stop.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, stop, your faith.

[Speaker 3]
But it's se, which is to ripen, or pop open, or something like that.

[Speaker 1]
Basically, yay, $20! Yay, $20! Lottery thing.

I'll get 20 more bucks if somebody can tell me that se that we had this afternoon, that was pretty important. In my time zone. We had ma se.

Nope. Oh, ya se. Nope, that's ya ten, that's ya ten.

You're close, Nick, you're in the right text. Yeah. It was along those lines.

Make and se, make and se. The conditions for things to stay. Wore out.

Oh, that's sepa. Yeah, that's all I'm saying, okay? Lots of sepas.

You don't get any money from me, okay? Okay, so sepa with a Z, it's a low-tone S. And if I ever hear you people pronounce it with a Z, you're going to pay me money.

Checks in the mail. When you see a Z, it's a low-tone S, okay? Don't think it's a Z, okay?

Poor Lama Zopa is called Zopa for his whole life. Mispronounced. Okay.

Yeah, so does a seed open? And then a pleasure realm being has a real, an actual perception of the hell realms, because their seeds opened up, okay? And by the way, bak chak sepa, which is usually bak chak sepa, is an expression that's often used when people are gossiping about tukus.

You know, this guy's a goofball. This reincarnated Lama who's eight years old is a goofball. When's his bak chak going to stay?

People go around the monastery asking, and usually it's around 16, 17 years old that major bak chaks from your past life tend to say, okay? All right, who's next? We have Cynthia Chen.

Cynthia, okay. Okay. Chancellor.

No, it's not the case. That's not correct. That's hell being, that pleasure being, No, make it a double negative.

It is not, not the case? Yeah, it's not true that it's not the case. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. It's not.

It's not the case. Because? Because, um, the, the hells, the Nel, um, let me see, uh, I don't see a not there.

The hells do not, um, appear until kunshi, only appear directly, um, if the bok choks, if the seeds, um, wake up, um, depending to, um, upon, or directly to the person? Yeah. So what it says is, uh, when you do see the hell bells, uh, seeing them directly depends on the bok chok opening up, okay, the seed opening up.

Anytime anybody experiences the hells, it's just a seed opening up in the kunshi. Even when hell beings perceive the hells, it's just seeds opening in their refrigerator, okay? Therefore, if a desire, if a form realm deva, uh, if it's true that the entire realm appears to everybody in the realm, okay, and it's an interesting question, okay, now think of it like this, uh, is this, you know, are we in the desire realm?

Yes. Are you experiencing the desire realm? Yes.

So, are, are desire realm seeds opening in your mind? Yes. Are, are you aware you're in a realm?

Yes. Well, I mean, generally, after studying.

[Speaker 2]
I'm in a world, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you're aware that you're in a realm. Well then, why can't you see the whole realm? If it's just seeds opening in your mind, and you're aware that you're in a realm, why can't you see the whole realm at once, you know, because, because it's all just coming out of seeds, okay?

That's the question here. That's the question here. Okay.

Uh, next. Who's, who's the trekker? I have Gibson.

Okay. Um, um. It's not, it's definitely not the case.

It's not uncertain. It's not uncertain, okay? It's not uncertain that if the hell realms appear to you, it's happening because a seed has opened, okay?

It's not, there's no question about it. Why? Because sa beng gi tu, de dak nun.

Because, because of the, due to the power of the seeds, that's why those things appear directly to you. Good, good, yeah. And by the way, the question is partly, can a form realm deva have a real perception of the hells?

[Speaker 2]
Right, sen nipa.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good, perfect, yeah, nice. And by the way, a test of a real perception of something would be, can it pen you or nu you? Does it help you out or does it harm you?

Yeah, now, question for you, without looking at the text, is it possible for a dream to pen you? Yes. Yeah, you can be disturbed by a dream.

And if you dream about this girl you want to take out, it's possible it will excite you, right? So it's interesting. If the objects in a dream can excite you or depress you, they must have some reality.

Some being the qualifying. Yeah, okay. And that's an interesting idea, okay?

Yeah. There must be some reality to the things you experience in a dream or the things that just appear to you from seeds opening in your refrigerator, if they can disturb you or make you happy when you wake up, or make you sad when you wake up, okay. Have a reality, just not the reality you think they have.

Yeah, and then he says, for example, While you are dreaming? Yeah, you can have nangwa of yi-yong or yi-dum-yong. You can have an appearance, something come to you that's beautiful or ugly.

Yeah, and it will pen you and it will know you. And the beautiful thing will benefit you and the ugly thing will harm you. Yeah, it will make you happy or make you sad.

So, if it has consequences on your feelings, it's got to have some realities, right? Okay. All right.

Now, here's an opponent complaining. Who's up? Who's up?

[Speaker 3]
Venerable Gyelsa, can you do it?

[Speaker 1]
I can try. Hi, Venerable.

[Speaker 3]
Hey, Word.

[Speaker 1]
Hey, Venerable, how do you feel? Are you totally recovered?

[Speaker 3]
I don't know. No, I still have congestion in my throat, as you can hear. I don't know why.

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry, okay.

[Speaker 3]
But I have lots of energy. It's just a side effect.

[Speaker 1]
Well, go for some walks. Okay, here we go. Every night.

Okay. Jorik Jhunpe, Okay, cool. Now, the opponent is trying to draw a distinction between getting a flash of the hell realms and then living in the hell realms.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He says, look, for the hell realms to appear to you is not the same thing as living in the hell realms, you know, acting in the hell realms, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, and Kong is...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and he's going to try to draw a distinction between two kinds of karma.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
One, to have a vision of the hell realms.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
The other, to be in the hell realms and experiencing them that way. So, Jorik Jhunpe, when we're talking about a shared reality, okay, a world, a shared world, where all the beings in that world share the world, okay, you have to distinguish between that world nangwa and chupa. Just appearing like a dream or something and actually being like an active...

Yeah, like acting out your life in that world, okay? Nyi kye le le chupa, they come from karma. Both of them come from karma.

Yeah, both of them come from karma. And therefore, pen nu. They can both make you feel good, make you feel bad.

Yeah, but, Yang, but, if you are rikmitan... If you're not actually in that world, sharing that world. Yeah, if you are not the same type of being, for example, a human and a hell being, let's say, I'm going to say being here, okay?

If you are not the same type of being, maybe it's possible for the nang gyur le. Or the karma that produces the vision. But not the gyur gyur, chur gyur, sorry.

As opposed to the karma that produces an operating world. Yeah, so here, le gyur means the karma is there. The karma is acting to see a vision, but the karma to actually live in it is not there.

It's not working, okay? Madru, okay? Therefore, if you just have an appearance karma operating, sorry, has come, but you don't have a karma to live in that world, pen nu ming gyur.

It can't really harm or hurt you. Yeah, it's not going to burn you. You can have a dream about the hell realms, or you can have a vision of the hell realms, but it's not going to burn your hand, okay?

Now, gyur mi nu. You can't say that. Yeah, yeah, okay?

The wrong loop of this book, the Mind-Only School says, you can't make that argument. Don't try to divide it into two kinds of karma. This convoluted thing, okay?

As long as it can disturb you, an apparition can disturb you, okay? And so it has some reality, okay? All right, subtle arguments here.

Who's up? Rebecca, can you do it? Yes.

Okay, here we go. Suk tra so gi yul ga shik. Rik tun pe jo wa ga shik la.

Yang ka chik la pen par tong la ka chik la nuk par tong wey chir tang. Yeah, and then Tsongkhapa says, look, even people who live in the same realm, okay? Some objects can appear to them, and they pen by one guy, and they nuk by the other guy.

Yeah, even, yeah, some stuff that appears in the same realm might hurt one, feel good for one person when they look at them, and then someone else looks at it, and it feels bad. Yeah, good, good, perfect, okay? This is getting really interesting, isn't it?

By the way, the Golden Key was a solid commentary. It was. And like Yen said, it's a solid commentary.

But when you get Tsongkhapa in the room, you're gonna go on an acid trip, you know? He's gonna take you to a million universes, you know? It's such a difference to sit in the room with Tsongkhapa, you know?

All right, here we go. Who's checking? Hustle, can you do it?

Hustle. Hustle? He's gonna hustle you.

Hustle. That's listo. Listo.

Listo, listo, hustle? He's eating birthday cake, where he can't talk. His mouth is full.

Listo. Listo, amigo. Okay.

Okay. Nangishebala soksu nangwatamle matokpe nukyang mindu peda iduwangwa tang idumiongwa rangtsen par nangwe yu nangwatam ki penyu tungyor ki tungyor la mitu. Yeah, moreover, when something, only some, appears to your inner awareness, okay?

To the mind within you, as some kind of a physical thing, like a dream, okay? Matokpe nukyang mindu peda, we don't accept any other world. Don't try to divide the world into the one that appears to you and the one that you experience, because in this school, it's the same thing, okay?

We don't buy it. We don't buy any world which is not the one which is just appearing to your mind, inside your mind. This is kind of like the argument between lower middle way and higher middle way on like mirages and stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Therefore, therefore, iduwangwa, attractive, and idumiongwa, unattractive. You're talking about the real one, the real one, the definitive one, okay?

It's nothing more than an appearance to the mind anyway. Okay, don't tell me definitive or the actual experience of hell and try to divide it from the image of hell, because in this school, the image is, the actual experience is an image in the mind, okay? All right?

And nothing, not what some, it doesn't take anything more than just the appearance to the mind to help you or hurt you, okay? And it doesn't depend on some kind of experience, outer experience, okay? Forget this distinction, all right?

Got it? Yes. Okay, whose turn?

[Speaker 3]
Katie, can you do it? Katie Fetch?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, Katie Fetch. Hey, is my niece with you?

[Speaker 2]
She's asleep, I'm about to go see her.

[Speaker 1]
Maybe she's having dreams and maybe they're real.

[Speaker 2]
I hope so. They could be. She told me there was a shark in the tree the other day and I was like, what?

[Speaker 1]
I've had that. Okay, hi, Katie. All right.

Karna. Yume Shinje, la shinje rangzen par nangwa na kipa tang yume na chung rangzen par nangwa na tetsam ki chakpa kipa shino. Yeah, for example, you can have an illusory yama, okay, you can have an illusory lord of death who appears to you as though he's the real lord of death.

So you can take a drug and you can think the lord of death is knocking on your door, okay? And he can appear to you as though he was the real lord of death. You're still going to jig buck, yeah?

You're still going to have beer. You're still going to have poop in your pants.

[Speaker 2]
And that's when it's going to be real.

[Speaker 1]
Yume na chung can also appear in your life, okay? In a dream. Na chung means a beautiful young lady, okay?

Like Eva. And it can appear to be a real beautiful young lady and it doesn't take anything more than that to have chakpa kipa. To have desire.

Yeah, tetsam kipa means just the appearance is going to give you desire, okay? So don't give me this BS about the hells appearing to the form realm deva or the real hell is, or they're in the hell. In this school, you can't draw a distinction like that.

Okay, all right.

[Speaker 2]
Rosa, can you do it? Rosa?

[Speaker 1]
Wow, Rosa, welcome.

[Speaker 2]
Wow.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you for all the books. Thank you for all the books. You're a genius.

You're a genius. And your team is a genius.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, they are.

[Speaker 1]
Shanyang mitabui kunshi la nyelwa nangwa te nyelwa pa la chitar nangwa tar nangam minang. Yeah, so let's give, moreover, you know, he says, and one more thing. He's like saying, and one more thing.

I'm not done with you yet, okay? If you take a human, somebody like a human, and the hells appear in their refrigerator consciousness, okay? nangwa te nyelwa la chitar nangwa tar nangam minang.

Does that appearance of the hells appear as the hells appear or doesn't it? Does that appearance of the hells appear as the hells appear or doesn't it? Okay.

Okay, then I threw in a little story that we had from the, there's a famous section in scripture and we had it in the Lam Rim. Kim, do you remember about Ananda's nephews? They were having desire and they took them to the hell.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
No, and then Ananda didn't take them to the hells. He gave them over to Maudgalyayana and said, hey, take care of these guys. They can't stop thinking about a certain part of their body.

So, can you take them on a trip to the hells and show them? You know, and then the question arises in the mind-only school, how did they go to the hells? You know, how did, he did, by the way, and that's supposed to be, well, a similar story about how the Wheel of Life got painted in the first place.

Somebody took somebody there, like Dante, and said, check this out. So, according to the mind-only school, what were the nephews seeing? I wouldn't say.

Kunshi. Yeah, they were seeing a hell realm open, they were seeing a picture of the hell realms open in there, Kunshi, when Sabin sat, right? So, was that real or not?

Did they see the real hells or not? Or did they just see an image of the hells? Okay, that's the question.

That's, so Kappa's raising a question. Okay, here we go. Yeah, can you check?

Oh, by the way, the question was, are they experiencing a real appearance of the hells or not? Okay, he gave two choices. And now he says, ,DANG PO LTAR NA.

Okay. ,DANG PO LTAR NA, ,GNEL BA PA GHO NAS LAS DBANG GIS, ,NANG BA THE MA YIN PAR BRTEL LO. Yeah.

If you say that the real hells are appearing to someone who has a vision of the hells, for example, if Maudgalyayana takes you and you're Ananda's nephew, and he shows you the hells, then it cannot be the case, Ma Yin, that that ,GNEL BA NANG BA, the appearance of the hells, is only happening by the ,GNEL BA PA GHO NAS LAS. Because of the hellers, the hellers, the hell beings, karma. Yeah.

So what he's saying is, if you say the real hell is appearing to these spectators who are hanging on to Maudgalyayana's robes, right? And he's taking them on a trip to see the hells, then it's not the case that the only way to see hell is to be a hell being. Okay.

I have a problem. Wouldn't you have to say that if you're seeing the hells, if they're appearing to you, if appearance is the only way that things can appear, then when they appear to you, you are a ,GNEL BA PA, by definition? Yeah, you could say it that way too.

You could say it the same way. Okay. All right.

Then, here we go. Can you bring the screen down just a little bit? Yeah, I'm gonna join this.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Let's blow it up a little bit.

[Speaker 3]
Whose turn? Bertha Velasco.

[Speaker 1]
Yay, Bertha.

[Speaker 2]
Great. Yeah, it's blown up a little too far.

[Speaker 1]
It's too big? Okay. Thank you.

Duna. Pasek Sashi Suyike. Suyike.

Metsob Teta Shilechung. Tena Teta Tamsheni. Diksem Tungwar Tupesung.

Shepe Nyutso. Good. Try to translate this line by line.

Okay. Take your time. Take your time.

Don't rush. Okay, I got this. I know you got this.

That's why I'm not paying you for it. If you agree to that, then the burning iron, which is the very foundation. The floor of hell, yeah.

Yeah, the platform of hell. Suyike. Whose is it?

Yeah, who, what construction company made that? Who made that? Yeah, who built it?

Yeah, who built it? And then, and then, and then what of the fire? What, what karma did that come from?

Chilechung means, you know, where'd that come? It just means, what did it come from? The lay is from.

Yeah, where'd all these fire, where'd all these piles of fire come from? Where'd all these conflagrations come from? Yeah.

So therefore. Yeah. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Therefore, Tupesun. Therefore, we can say. Nope, Shakya Tupesun.

Oh, why? Oh, therefore, Shakyamuni said. Therefore, Shakyamuni said, de na kamje ni deksham chungwa.

All that, all that stuff came from the bad stuff you did. Yeah, good, deksham ne chungwa, right? But they didn't have enough syllables.

The bad karma. It came from, it came from your bad mind. Yeah.

Ne do, ne do. What's that mean? That's how you get harmed.

No, this quotation, ne, your. Oh, that's your argument. Hey, hey.

Yeah, this quotation destroys your argument, okay? That there's some difference between the appearance of hell when you, when someone takes you there and the participation karma. Yeah, now who said this quotation?

Da, da, da, da. Ah, oh yeah, I know this one. From?

From Master Shantideva. Yeah, it's quoted in Shantideva. He's quoting Shantideva.

Yeah, who was it that made all the burning hot embers in hell? Yeah, yeah, okay, good. So that, doesn't that destroy your position?

You know, that there had to be a real one and there's a separate one that appears to your mind. Didn't Buddha say they all come from your mind anyway? Okay.

Now listen, when the Buddha said it, he didn't say it the same way, to be honest.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
But that's okay, let's use it anyway.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Longer, right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, here we go, here's another one. Okay. Who's up, who's up?

Emily, can you check? Yay, Emily. Emily who, Emily Chen?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Hi, Emily. She has this wonderful smile and then she kills your words, don't be careful.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Go ahead, thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Ooh, that's good.

[Speaker 2]
Hello.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Yangmi Kunshila, yin chik tar nangwa tar nelwe kunshila, yang nangwar kelen yula. Yeah, so you'd have to say then that this is appearing, that the world is appearing to the kunshi of a human in exactly the same way that the world is appearing to the kunshi of a healthy.

Okay. You'd have to say that, okay. Meaning there's no difference in the epistemological status.

That's ontological status of the hell as it appears to a human who visits it and as it appears to a person who's been reborn there. Okay. All right.

That would make sense. Okay, here we go. Jin Zhuang, can you check?

Who's that?

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
Jin. Okay. Okay.

Tetana Chikedu. Idak tundro minam tan. Hal nam chitar rikritsu.

Nu cheki mi tade chir. Tun ma drupar dupey yin. Yeah.

I'll give you a hundred bucks if you can relate this to an ACI course. Okay. And I'm not going to help you because I don't want to give you money.

Okay, that's fine. Relax. Pengfeng.

All right. Idak tundro minam tan. Was as well as the same.

Veronica's making me a chili enchiladas with our own chilies tonight.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I guess.

[Speaker 1]
ACI course. Can we call it off the bet? Yeah.

Cancel the bet. Yay. Yay.

Four. Number four. Anybody want to take a shot?

Number four. The water. The glass of water.

[Speaker 2]
Yay, Nick. It's also in 15. It's also in 15.

[Speaker 1]
Yay, Nick. But it's too late. All right.

Yeah. A preta, an animal, and a human, and a deva, according to their class, according to which class they're born into, a single object can be separate objects. Therefore, that object, chirro dunmadru.

Has no outer existence. Yeah. It's not an object.

It's not an outer object. Which school must we be in? At least mind only.

Because if it was a middle way quotation, they wouldn't have said chirro. But they didn't, did they?

[Speaker 2]
But they didn't though.

[Speaker 1]
No, it's understood. It's understood. Trust me.

It was meant that way.

[Speaker 2]
Lower half of the lower half of the middle way?

[Speaker 1]
See, it could have said rangshinki dunmadrupa dupa. Okay. Now, I happen to know this is from the Samsam section of the Tengyur.

Oh, yeah. Okay. And it's the Mahayana.

We're out of time, Gabe. It's the Mahayana Sangraha. Okay.

Okay, then. I think that's by, who is that by, Sangraha? Sangraha.

Sangraha. Yeah. Okay.

Okay, I'm going to finish this sentence for you, okay? SHES CHURIKUD DUNMADRUPA'I RIGPAS SUMBAN NAM BOR BA YANG RGYUR RO If you take the position you have taken about some kind of distinction between the hell realms appearing and the hell realms experience, then you yourself have junked the whole system that says there's no outer objects. BOR BA means you can't call yourself a?

TAM TAM PA Yeah, you can't call yourself a Yogacara anymore. Okay? You blew your own system.

BOR BA means you've dumped your own system.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Yay.

[Speaker 1]
Right? 27? Yeah.

Okay. Give me some Japanese food. SASHI BUDDHI BUDDHA SANGYE SHARMA SHAMBUDDHA NYE MA DI GYE HO KUCHE BUDDHA SHEN TSO TSO SHING SANGYE SHARMA SHAMBUDDHA DANG PO NGON KUN YIN TOG PA SHING BUDDHA SANGYE SHARMA SHAMBUDDHA Yay, word.

Yay, that was actually pleasant. That's just an appearance. I know.

Well, my- That's a real thing. My chuh and my nang is changing. Sabans must be saying.

Okay, have a good night, you guys. See you in the morning. Thank you.

Everybody stay tuned for a class.