Вордсмит — Книга 2: Трудные места школы «Ум только», занятие 6

[Speaker 2]
and the homework and Geshe-la can come when he's ready. Sangye Chö Rang Sog Kyi Chok Nam Ma Chang Chö Bar Dü Dak Mi Khyap Su Kyi Tak Kyi Chön Yen Gyi Pae Tsu Nam Kyi Chok Lar Pön Chö Sangye Chö Par So Sangye Chö Rang Sog Kyi Chok Nam Ma Chang Chö Bar Dü Dak Mi Khyap Su Kyi Tak Kyi Chön Yen Gyi Pae Tsu Nam Kyi Chok Lar Pön Chö Sangye Chö Par So Sangye Chö Rang Sog Kyi Chok Nam Ma Chang Chö Bar Dü Dak Mi Khyap Su Kyi Tak Kyi Chön Yen Gyi Pae Tsu Nam Kyi Chok Lar Pön Chö Sangye Chö Par So Yay! Okay, homework.

Okay. Whoever's here, we're doing homework. Okay.

If what appears to foundation consciousness is not dependent upon objects as they ripen and are perceived, what is the logical implication for the lower two realms? What would happen in the lower two realms? So this is, if you don't remember, this is...

You'd see everything. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, for example...

[Speaker 1]
From anywhere in the desire realm, you'd be able to see the hell realms.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Nice, Nick. Thank you.

Saved me from having to explain a thing I don't understand.

[Speaker 1]
I thought it was weird, too, because... If it's like that, then why... Wouldn't we all just be Buddhas or something?

Wouldn't we just know everything?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, like, what's the limit of that appearance? Like, why wouldn't we just be omniscient or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 3]
So omniscience isn't caused by... doesn't have causes and conditions.

[Speaker 2]
Well, I mean, this is all... This is all based upon what ripens in the... Ripens in the pen of the kunshi.

Exactly. For omniscience, right? I know, I'm not done.

Okay. So, and one of those things is bok choks, which is seeds. So, your argument is valid.

But I don't know the answer. I don't know why. Why not?

Okay. Okay. According to Jason Koppel, what is the difference between something appearing to you as real and it really being real?

[Speaker 3]
Whether it hurts you or not?

[Speaker 2]
We did talk about hurting. And helping. But he said something a little different for this.

This is an awesome question.

[Speaker 3]
Is that dream and the real hell?

[Speaker 2]
Huh? Say that again, Gibson?

[Speaker 3]
I didn't catch it. Hell appearing in the dream and hell in the real hell realm.

[Speaker 2]
We did talk about that. What is Jason Koppel, basically, what is his argument? While we argue.

[Speaker 3]
I thought that he said something like, look, even people who live in the same realm, some things appear as pleasurable and help them and the same thing could appear to be harmful and hurt another person who sees the same thing.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that's true. So, what is the implication then? What is appearing as real and being real?

[Speaker 1]
Whether or not it affects you, right?

[Speaker 3]
No, it's silly to ask the question, because nothing is real.

[Speaker 2]
Or the opposite. As real as everything else. They're the same thing.

Yeah, right. As real as everything else, which is unreal. Right.

Not based on seeds, it would be. Totally. There's no central difference when discussing the appearance of something and it really operating because appearing is what makes things operate.

[Speaker 1]
Awesome.

[Speaker 2]
Awesome. Thanks, Jason Koppel. I'm just.

Thanks so much. Okay. Okay.

By implication, did Ananda's nephews really go to the hells with Magdalena?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Because it was a semi-meat bath.

[Speaker 2]
Yes. Nice, Nick. Yeah, it's true.

Based upon our last thing with Jason Koppel, it would be so. Okay. Tibetan words.

Raining iron. Oh, no. The floor of iron.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What kind of floor of iron? A burning floor.

Burning floor, yeah. Yeah, I used searing. Even better.

Yeah, because there's like a different word for burning. Okay, that's great. Okay.

Two highest realms. Opposite. Lowest.

[Speaker 1]
Lower realms. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Exactly. We had it in our discussion of basically not the foremost realms. Okay.

I'm in a dream. In the dream, I guess. The dream time.

Yeah, you got it. The dream time.

[Speaker 1]
Yay. Yay. Nice homework.

Thank you. Good homework. Thank you.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Really good homework. All right. Did I miss the Mandala?

Yeah, we started. Okay, sorry.

[Speaker 3]
We were in all our minds and hearts. Where's your purse?

[Speaker 1]
In the other room. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Let me see here.

All right. Then here we go. Who's your checker?

[Speaker 2]
Who's my checker picker? Checker picker.

[Speaker 1]
Not your nose picker. I know who that is.

[Speaker 2]
My checker picker. Marina. Marina is on my call.

Marina, is it okay over there? Can you do it? Maybe she didn't hear me.

Somebody else. How about Vimala? Vimala, are you busy?

Busy? You want to do it, Vim?

[Speaker 1]
What's going on? Ask Machik. I'm here.

Yes. You have to pick someone to check word. And you have to, each paragraph.

Okay. You have to try to decide who might be asleep and call on them. That's the goal.

Got it. Okay. Should I start now?

Pick someone? Let's try Rick. He's not asleep.

Okay. Forget it.

[Speaker 2]
Go ahead. Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I have trouble with this sentence, okay? We have to work it out together probably. GAL TE If DE NI That SEMS CAN DE REG GI DBANG ZHIG LA DE LTAR NANG BA YIN MA That's how things are appearing like that to the sense consciousnesses of those beings, right?

YIN MA But that and the appearances coming out of the kunshi are not the same thing. Wait. Michik could be one human.

No, no, no. Michik means they're not the same thing. They're not the same thing.

NI MI CHIK Those two are not the same thing. But what two things is he talking about? Maybe he's talking about the real hell appearance and the and like someone takes you to hell and shows you hell.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, NANG BA and CHU like the operating and the appearing.

[Speaker 1]
Let's provisionally take that as the meaning, okay? So the guy says, look, someone takes, Maitreya takes Ananda's two nephews to the hell realms. They perceive hell, but they don't experience hell.

Therefore, the appearance of the experience coming out of their kunshi and the vision of hell coming out of their kunshi are not the same thing. But I thought we already argued against that.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I thought so too.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. All right. So let's keep going.

Sometimes it will clarify itself. Sometimes it will get worse.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay. Anton Katusok.

Wow.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. I'm not even sure. Okay.

When the five sense objects appear to the sense consciousnesses, Okay? Both of them, which I guess is the wang che and the dens, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I'm going to say that. Both of those, yeah. They are both nothing less than things held by kunshi.

Right. Or things held which are coming out of the kunshi, probably, right? Nothing less than that.

They arise, ge, in consciousness, which is appearing as the object of the senses. That's okay, right? Yeah.

They arise as things which, as objects. They arise as consciousness, kunshi, right? Which is appearing as the object of the senses, like blue, like the color blue, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Then he's quoting a book, okay? This is Tsongkhapa answering that guy. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
I see.

[Speaker 1]
So I think he's talking about the consciousness, it's kunshi itself appearing, and kunshi appearing as outside objects, okay? Can you be aware of one and not be aware of the other? Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's the whole point. That's why there has to be a mind-only school. You see what I mean?

You can not recognize that it's all your mind, but you still see the blue, right? Okay? Right.

Now, Tsongkhapa says, it must be both are appearing to you, although later he's going to say, you may not be able to distinguish them. Okay? All right?

Got it? So kunshi and blue coming out of the kunshi are both appearing to you, but you may not be aware of it, of the kunshi part. You're aware of the blue part.

Okay? Got it? You okay?

Don't give me that scowl, that wordsmith scowl. I'm just speaking. All right, all right, all right.

I thought I smelled something burning. All right. That's the reason.

[Speaker 3]
So when there's apperception, is that then a third thing?

[Speaker 1]
Let's not go there, that's good. You know, thankfully we haven't had any apperception yet in any of the books.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. All right, now he quoted a scripture that said consciousness, which I take as kunshi, is appearing as the blue. As the blue.

Okay? And that's how these things start, which I take to mean that you're actually, there are two things showing themselves to you, the kunshi and the blue, but you can't separate them. You don't have that capacity until you've studied.

Okay? Until you've studied the Mind-Only School. Okay, now, DUN DU SNGO BA'I RNAM PAR BSHAD PA, it's a quotation.

It's a lung. It's a scriptural authority that he's using to prove his point. I found it.

It's in a Commentary to the Examination of Objects. Okay? Commentary to the Examination of Objects.

The Examination of Objects is a book by Dignaga. Okay? And this is called, here's the colophon.

,MIG PA LTA PA RGYA CHER ZHES PA, ,BLO DPON DUS BA'I LA ZHES BYAS MIG PA, ,THA DA LA ZHU BA MANG BA'I SEMS RGYAS, ,MUD DANG CHEN LAM PO CHE LAM PA, ,GYIS MED, for some reason, ,PHAR BRDZAD PA'I BRJAR BA RDZOGS TSO, Looking at this colophon, some catalogs to the Tenggir credit this commentary to Vinita Deva, Dulwedhla. But the way I read it, it's one of his students. Okay?

Because he says, I'm totally in love with Vinita Deva. Aishwarya, right? My heart flows to him.

Okay? So I think it's a different person. So I think this catalog is wrong.

This catalog to the Tenggir, in the Tenggir, which credits it to Vinita Deva. And I think this catalog, which is the Derghe catalog, is correct. Which says it's by some guy named Crusher of the Elephant Head.

Brain? Non-Buddhist or something. Okay.

Okay. Anyway, it's just a thing for your bibliography. Now here's the quotation.

,DUN GYI RNAM PAR GZHAN GYI RNAM PAR ZHES PANG PA SKYE BA, It arises as consciousness appearing as the object. Blue. Okay?

But you're not magnepa. You can't distinguish the difference. Okay?

They're both appearing to you, but you can't divide them. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
And that's our, that's our verse. ,NGES MA NGES Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Speaker 1]
I pulled it out of that. No. He just said, he just said, ,DUN GYI RNAM PAR GZHAN GYI RNAM PAR ZHES PANG PA, Okay?

That's all he said. He just quoted this little piece of it.

[Speaker 2]
Our original verse from Tsongkhapa, his commentary is, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He's going to talk about it actually. Okay. Then I went and found the original from Dignaga.

Okay. Which is here. In fact, the whole text by Dignaga is only a single page.

Okay. So I thought I'd give you the whole thing. Oh wow.

And the text that we're thinking about is, where is that? Where is that? What is that?

Anyway, it's in here somewhere. What do we say, NGES MA NGES PA, right? What's the quotation say?

I'm sorry. I'm sorry to make you guys blind. ,DUN GYI RNAM PAR GZHAN GYI RNAM PAR ZHES PANG PA, Okay.

Okay, SDUG BSDUG.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, oh well.

[Speaker 1]
SDUG GYI, SDUG GYI, SDUG GYI RNAM PAR ZHES PA Let me find it in here, just as a matter of pride. It's a long discussion of the twelve links actually.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, the text is Prathityam Samupada, it said.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, did it say that? Maybe I copied the wrong text. Yes, let me see.

Maybe I copied the wrong text.

[Speaker 2]
This is for Sugeng's book.

[Speaker 1]
Maybe. Maybe. Yeah, it is isn't it?

Yeah, maybe I just copied the wrong text. Okay, I'll fix it for you. Get the right text.

Sorry about that. Now, he says there's that quotation from Big Naga and here's another quotation for you guys. Nam shing nga yi, oh, you want to read it?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Nam shing nga yi jin che ching. She stop with ten seno.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, Tsongkhapa is seeking a lung for a lung rik proof, okay? And he quotes himself, which is kind of unusual. Okay.

I already told you that. You know, and I kept looking for it in the tenure. And then I realized he's quoting himself.

He says, I already told you that. Ten sen do means I already told you that. And it's part of verse number nine.

We're like on verse number 15 or something. And he's like, hey, it is the five consciousnesses act as the holder. That's all it says.

Okay. Meaning the sense consciousnesses. Okay.

And he says, I already told you about that. Okay. Now he goes back to the nyelwa.

And I think it's going to help us. Okay. So who's going to read?

[Speaker 2]
Let's get Carol Wu. Wu. Carol Wu.

Okay. The queen of Paijong. Okay.

Nipa tarna nyelwa pa la chi tar. Nangwa tarmi nangyang nyelyang tsenipa. Nangwar duna hachang telwa gyurte.

Den roi dewa tamche layang nangwar yoro.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. So, you know, this is supposed to help us out. Okay.

If it's the second way, then what you're saying is that when someone shows somebody else hell, it doesn't appear to them in the same way that it appears to a hell being. Nyelwa pa la chi tar nangwar tarmi nang. It doesn't appear to them in the way it appears to a hell being.

But it's still a nyellang tsenipa. It's still a real hell. Yeah.

It's still a real hell. It's still a real hell appearance. Okay.

This is the other, it has to be the other guy. Okay. You ready?

Yeah. Look, it doesn't appear as it appears to a guy in the hell, but it's still a real hell appearance. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Then, then if you, is that what you're saying?

Hajang tawa. That's too much. That's way out there, man.

That's way too much. In that case, all the dewa of the dendros should appear to them as well.

[Speaker 2]
All the, all the good vibes of the good vibe peoples in the higher realms should.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay. And according to Tsongkhapa, the debate is over.

And so you're going to have to, we got shaky. Our understanding is shaky between last week, your last class, the end of your last class, and this wrap up. This wrap up is clear, right?

So you're going to have to go back and squeeze the meaning of everything between into one. Clear. Okay, good luck.

Who's next? By the way, I'll help you if we can't get it, but I think you can.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, we'll get it.

[Speaker 1]
Rang.

[Speaker 2]
All right. GANG PA LHAG MA ZHI YANG RIG PA DI PHAG LA ZHI PAR BYA'O Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Now, the last four lines in my verse on this subject can be understood based on the reasoning I just gave you. Okay, I'm not going to write an OM NAM DU auto-commentary on the last four lines of my root text at this point, because I just want you to apply what I just taught you. Okay?

All right? You can bark by it. You can figure it out.

And then you will understand it, ZHI PAR BYA'O. Okay? So just follow the same.

I went and got you the last four lines. Let's read them together.

[Speaker 2]
SNGAL BA LA YANG LHAG NAM GYIS NYID DU NANG BA CHUNG BA THAMS THAMS SNA LA'ANG BSKYED PAR GYIS NYUL NAG SOGS PA NANG BAR GYUR Yeah, that's Tsongkapa's last four lines in this section.

[Speaker 1]
And he says, I don't need to write a commentary on it because it just flows from what I just told you. So, and it does. Okay.

According to you, the NUS and the CHOS of the LHA should appear to the NYAL BA PA.

[Speaker 2]
The world and its contents, the beings in the world should appear to the pleasure beings.

[Speaker 1]
To the hell realm people.

[Speaker 2]
Hell realm. Yeah, yeah, to the hell realm people.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good. Yeah. And that kind of flows from Tsongkapa's last auto-commentary statement.

Okay. And that's what he promised.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Now the next one is extremely hard. If you don't know the word, GAL BA should be, AYA. Okay, so here's a very difficult thing.

GAL BA without the B means what?

[Speaker 2]
Means to be blessed by really good karma.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, your karmic bank account. Your good seeds. And that's why they call people GAL SANG.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He has a good GAL SANG. He has good karma, bank account. GAL BA with a B means what?

An eon. GAL BA. Yeah, a million zillion years.

A million zillion years. So you got to be careful to watch the spelling. Now, in 0, 0, 0, 0.1% of the time, it doesn't mean either.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It means GAL BDUN DU SONG BA, which is a logic term, okay? And that's how it's meant here by Tsongkhapa. And if you don't know that, either choice you make of the traditional two choices is going to be wrong, okay?

Okay, so GAL BDUN, the classic GAL BDUN is a preta. The body of a preta is the classic GAL BDUN for normal people.

[Speaker 2]
Right. It's a thing that's beyond their ability to perceive, so it shouldn't be brought up in a debate.

[Speaker 1]
Good, yeah. GAL BDUN DU SONG BA means it's beyond their, and we translated it in the root text as beyond their ken, okay? It's not something they can normally perceive, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. So look, according to your argument, if everything in the kunshi can indiscriminately appear to anybody, then hell beings should see the heavens of the gods. And things which are normally hidden to normal people should suddenly appear all around them, okay?

Nyul natsok, all these different things like preta, spirits, local spirits, they should all show themselves, boom, to everybody because they're all just coming out of the kunshi. If it's just indiscriminate realm stuff coming out of the kunshi, then why can't everybody see everything, okay? Good?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
And you're supposed to figure that out without his help. That's what he's telling you. You don't need me to figure these last four lines out, okay?

[Speaker 3]
Geshe-la, no one ever said it was indiscriminate. It's from karma. It's not random.

[Speaker 1]
What he's trying to get to is we had a long discussion of how the mind-only school is going to explain the formless realm, which is difficult. It's a difficult thing to explain. We finished it and it was satisfying to all of us, but then it raised questions of what distinguishes realms anyway?

Why can't you see all of the realm if you belong in that realm, okay? What's the point of a division into desire realm? Why call me a desire realm being if I can only perceive part of it?

Why call me somebody from Arizona if I can't see all of Arizona, okay? Then call me a rim rocker. All right.

Okay, word, who's checking?

[Speaker 2]
Berta Velasco?

[Speaker 1]
Yay, let's go, Wern.

[Speaker 2]
Berta, estas lista?

[Speaker 1]
Si, claro que si.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah, okay. Tei, chen ngpa. Ngpa-wa.

Yeah, what they say, yeah, yeah. Ngpa-wa, ga-shig, kun-shi, chig-la, sam-den-shi-pa. Men-che, nar-me-pa, yen-che, nang-shen-du-la.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so there are certain lemba-was, certain beings, upper beings? Come on. Things that you can see directly?

Abhidharma followers? Yeah, good. Oh, yeah, Abhidharma.

There are a few of those weirdos, those weirdos, those Abhidharmaists. Some of them, ga-shig, they say, in a single kun-shi, in a single person's kun-shi, everything from nar-me up to the sam-den-shi-pa is going to nang.

[Speaker 2]
Everything from the lowest hell all the way up to the form realms. Fourth form realm. Oh, shi-pa.

Okay, yes. Will appear.

[Speaker 1]
To the kun-shi of a person. Yeah, good. And then there's going to be this idea that, that you cannot discriminate or you cannot pick out the form realm part if you're living in the desire realm.

It's all appearing to you, but you can't distinguish it. There's something wrong with your mind. You can't distinguish it.

So if you tell that guy, look, are you telling me the hell realms are appearing to the form realm deities? He'll say, yeah, but they can't discriminate it. Okay.

There's something wrong with them. Okay. Why would we listen to Abhidharmaists about the kun-shi anyway?

Apparently these are real historical people. Oh, yeah. Maybe they are sen-sam-pay-chok-tu.

Maybe they are minority-leaning Abhidharmaists of which Vasubandhu could be accused of that, maybe.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. All right. Now, some people object to those Abhidharma renegades.

Okay. And here's what they say. Please read.

[Speaker 2]
KHA CHIG SEMS CAN ZHIG PA NI THUNG MONG MA YIN PAS LAS LAS GRUB PA'I MI NANG LA GZHAN NANG GZHAN DU PA THANG Some people respond to the renegade Abhidharmaists and say, hey, you know, you're right.

[Speaker 1]
You're right. It all appears to everybody, but can we just skip the fourth form realm level? Okay.

Because that comes from a special karma. Okay. That comes from a very unique karma.

THUNG MONG MA YIN PA'I LAS LAS GRUB PA That comes from a very unique karma. Therefore, it doesn't appear to just everybody, but the rest, I can buy it. Okay.

All right. Some people give that answer. All right.

All right. Other people quote another book. Who's up?

Hola.

[Speaker 2]
Hola. Yeah. Hola, son of Gerald.

Is that hola? Maybe it's more than one. Hi, hola.

Hi, hola. Okay. Maybe.

Shendak. Shendak. CHE SHI LE THEE MIK PA THANG NAM PA YONG SU CHE PAR MI NU SOH CHE PE THUN DU SAM NE TSE KEE CHE MI NU PE NU CHU GYIS TSE THAMS CAD NANG BAR NUS PAR LA NI GRUB PAR CHE PE ME LA NUS PAR CHE PE YOD THO Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And here's that part I was anticipating for you. Okay. There's a book called CHE SHI and we'll talk about it.

And it says, DE MIG PA THANG NAM PA YONG SU CHE PAR MI NUS SOH Meaning, they cannot discriminate between the object and the appearance. It may be that the whole universe is appearing to them from the kunshi, but they only have the karmic seeds to see part of it. They can only divide out the part that relates to the realm they live in.

And that's why they live in that realm. Okay. I'll say it again.

I agree the whole universe, except for the fourth form realm level, and we're not talking about formless realm, is appearing to everybody, but not everybody has the capacity to discriminate or to, how do you say that?

[Speaker 3]
Well, it's identify, right?

[Speaker 1]
Not exactly. Cut it out. To cut it out.

Discern? Discern? Yeah, I like discern.

Yeah. In fact, I wrote it here.

[Speaker 2]
Discern.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. And Pan too, yeah. The whole universe is appearing to them.

I'm meaning most of the form realm and all of the desire realm is appearing to everybody, but they can't discern some of the realms, some of the levels. Okay. They're trying to say that.

It's similar to the guy who said, the appearance of hell is not the same as the experiential appearance of hell. They're still trying to divide it. Okay.

And this probably goes back to the, what was that guy we had? The weirdo guy? Patchwork?

The patchwork guy? Chopper. Yeah.

The Nepalese. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's not go there.

Let's not go there. It's bad enough already. You asked.

Let's keep humanity. Okay. Now, some people go to this quotation, which is, by the way, a commentary by Sthiramati, okay?

On a text by, I think, Vasubandhu, about the five heaps, okay? And it's Chedakjushepa, which is abbreviated as Cheshe, okay? Cheshe.

And it's a commentary to Vasubandhu's treatment of the five heaps, okay? And they say, look, Sthiramati said they aren't capable of discerning between what they think they see and what they're really seeing, okay? Zhepe dundu.

Samne. Some people are thinking about that quotation and they pause it. This thing about, tse kyi che is an idiom, okay?

Unusual idiom. You'll see it in logic texts and it means discern with your pramana, okay? Sorry, not pramana.

It just means they can't draw the measure of something. They can't make the measure of something, okay? They can't take the measure, okay?

It means they cannot discern, okay? They can't chop it out and see it, okay? Mi nupay.

But, nuchak gi tse tam che, all the things in the universe, people and places, are appearing to them, but they can't, how do you say that? They can't dissect. Dissect?

They can't discern it. Everything's appearing to them. Divide.

But there's parts that they cannot, there's a word in English.

[Speaker 2]
Differentiate?

[Speaker 1]
Differentiate's good. I'm going to add that in here. Rebecca.

Rebecca says delineate. Oh, delineate's very good. Thanks, Rebecca.

Parse. Parse. I like delineate, yeah.

I'm voting for delineate. Okay. So everything in the universe is appearing to them, but they are incapable of delineating.

DGOS PA NI, DGOS PA, nowhere, DGOS PA NA NI, DGOS PA BYAS PA SMRAS LA Okay, some people say, this DGOS PA means those shendaks, okay? Some people on this topic point to Sthiramati who said they cannot distinguish between the appearance and the object, okay? And they come up with this idea, okay?

But, but, la, soft, soft. Disjunctive? Disjunctive.

Whereas? But if you ask me, there's DGOS PA BYAS PA SMRAS for that idea and GNOD PA BYAS PA YOD.

[Speaker 2]
There's no basis. There's no proof for that idea. And there's plenty of ways that we can.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, there is. Yeah, good, good, good, good, yeah. And we've had that formula once or twice before, okay?

In my opinion, there's no support for that idea. And there's lots of unsupport for that idea, okay? Okay, all right.

Okay. Now somebody makes another objection. Here we go.

LHA YIN TE LUNG NI NUS BYAS THO BZHED NA Yeah, that's not true because the quotation itself, it hurts the idea. You can use the quotation itself to disprove the idea, okay?

[Speaker 2]
The LUNG itself hurts it, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, I'm going to have two choices here, how to translate it. They're probably opposite of each other. Here's Tirumathi's quotation, okay?

They are incapable of discriminating between the object and the appearance, the aspect, the object and the aspect, okay? That's Tirumathi's commentary, okay? Now Tsongkhapa is going to clarify things.

Yay. LUNG DE'I BRDOD NI means, look, let me tell you what that quotation means, okay? Let me tell you.

Okay, please read.

[Speaker 2]
LUNG DE'I BRDOD NI TSE GYIS BYAS MI NUS PAS NUS CHUD THAMS CAD NANG BAR BRDUN PA MIN GYIS MIG PA THI THAP HUY SHIG LA NAM PAN DIN DRA WA SHIG ANG GYIS SONG NGO SHE KUN SHI RANG NI GYIS KYANG SELWAR CHE MIN NUS MIN NUS LA CHE SU NEPA YANG DREN MIN NUPE CHUNG YIN TE GZHAN DU NA NGAR GYIS NUS CHE CHUG GO Okay, good.

[Speaker 1]
Now here's Tsongkhapa, okay? Here comes Tsongkhapa. LUNG DE'I BRDOD NI Now listen, Tirumathi's little quotation there, TSE GYIS BYAS MI NUS PAS NUS CHUD THAMS CAD NANG BAR BRDUN PA MIN It is not saying that the whole world is appearing to you, but you can only delineate so much of it, okay?

It's not saying that. What it is saying is, MIG PA THI THAP HUY SHIG LA NAM PAN DIN DRA WA SHIG KYI SONG NGO SHE KUN SHI RANG NI GYIS SELWAR CHE MIN NUS The kunchi itself cannot make the delineation. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
It's saying the kunchi cannot clearly delineate. Yeah, good.

[Speaker 1]
Between the blue appearing and blue as part of kunchi appearing to kunchi.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Kunchi cannot say, oh, this blue is just my leg. Kunchi's eyes, kunchi's mind cannot say, oh, blue is appearing to me and it's just a part of me, okay? And by the way, the implication is, to some extent, maybe with a well-trained person, it can make the distinction.

But untrained, kunchi is not aware that it's looking at kunchi. Would that be like mind only Chucho? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and it's also, that's where nyunyi comes in.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
When kunchi can't distinguish between blue and kunchi appearing as blue, then you get negative emotions.

[Speaker 2]
Right, it's the nyunyi that which can't separate what is the kunchi with what is the self who doesn't know the difference.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, especially with the husband in the kitchen. You can take the mind-only school to the kitchen and you can teach the kitchen. I've done it, it's fun.

You can teach the whole kitchen as mind-only school. And it's kind of cool. So in this case, the husband who doesn't, wait, kunchi, the kunchi of the wife cannot tell that the husband she sees is really part of her own kunchi.

Okay, got it? And that's the mind-only school's version of link number one to bring in Sugeng, which is probably what Vasubandhu is going to say. Okay, that's the mind-only version of link number one.

Okay, got it? Then she's going to yell back, which is link number two. ,LTAR BAR BYED MI NUS PA LA, Now, one of the tests, especially in the mind-only school of whether you've had an authentic experience is whether or not it can trigger a memory.

And that's the bear and the mouse thing. Yeah, okay. So one of the tests of whether you could discern clearly is could you remember later that you saw blue and your mind appearing as blue?

Could it inspire a recollection of that division? And he says, ,JES SU NGES PA YANG RJEN MI NUS, It cannot.

[Speaker 2]
Follow that, it would be to ascertain a memory from that.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, later, later. ,JES SU NGES PA You couldn't have a subsequent memory, for example, that I saw my husband and I saw my mind appearing as my husband. Except a trained mind-only practitioner.

,GZHAN DU NA NGAR BRTAN GYI NUS BYED SBYUG RGO, If this discussion were not this way that I've just described it, and if this discussion were the way you want to describe it, you got the same problems as we just had with the hell realm and the real hell realm appearance and the not real hell realm appearance. You're going to get the same problems, okay? Cool?

Yeah. I'm taking myself out to dinner after this. I'm just telling you.

Okay, here we go. Please read. Who's up?

We got two minutes. Let's not waste it.

[Speaker 2]
How about Alex Rivas?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, in fact, I guaranteed you a few extra minutes. So let's go, let's go over.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Rivas! Hey, Rivas, donde?

[Speaker 3]
Sorry, sorry, I'm here.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Hey, Alex, that was a great yoga class. Can I get a recording of that yoga class?

I don't know who. Yeah, yeah, we have good. Vee and me want to do it again because we enjoyed it a lot.

Oh, thank you. Okay, here we go. Please read, word.

[Speaker 2]
Yona, hamokmani, ana nuchu chittabu shiknang shena.

[Speaker 1]
What's that say?

[Speaker 2]
It says, well, then, in the lower two realms, well, actually saying shena, the question is then, therefore, in the lower two realms, what is it that is appearing as the vessel and its inhabitants, the world is?

[Speaker 1]
How do we see Rimrock? And how do we see the cowboys in Rimrock? Rimrockers.

Yeah, now, okay, so look, I understand that that idea was wrong about, I understand everything about the discrepancy between what appears and what you think appears. I got that. But now tell me how it really works.

How do I see Rimrock? How do I see people in Rimrock? Got it?

Got it. And then we got that, we're going to skip a root text because it's too much of a cat out of the bag. It'll be too easy.

Just read. No, we have to suffer for our knowledge. Then we remember.

Please read. Who's checking?

[Speaker 2]
Marina Larnamark? Marina? All right.

Sure, I'm now here. Okay, Marina. Nice to hear your voice.

Ngusu, mikpani rangyu ki wangpo tela nangweyu namyinla gyunei ni tentei tsoktruk ki yultsu nangwar hangyupa tentei kunshi yultuang jokho.

[Speaker 1]
Whoa. Okay, so let's just start from somewhere. We have this sentence split into two parts.

Some things appear directly, ngusu. Other things appear indirectly. I'm guessing the blue appears directly.

The knowledge that I'm looking at my own kunshi occurs indirectly. I'm guessing. Let's see.

I'm guessing it's that division. Ngusu mikpani. What do you see directly is the yul, which means dun in our normal language here.

We're trying to stick to the language of wang, dun, ni. Wangpo and the dun. Samchen.

I wish he hadn't shown in yul. But, because we've been on wang, dun for like three days now. So, okay.

What does appear to you directly to the sense power in your own being? Okay, ranggyu. In your own being, what appears to the, is one thing appears to your sense powers in your being.

Okay? And then indirectly, there's the capacity of the kunshi to appear to you as the objects of the six kinds of awareness. And that's what we call kunshi.

The capacity of things to appear that way to you is kunshi. So he's trying to distinguish between kunshi and the apparitions it throws forth. But in the end, they both appear to you.

If you were well-trained maybe, you could discriminate between the blue and the kunshi appearing to me. You could say this is just, that the wife in the kitchen who's about to get to nirvana is supposed to be sensitive to the fact that what she sees is in her own mind. Okay.

And most people can't draw that distinction between the blue or the husband in the kitchen yelling and part of her own mind appearing as the husband yelling. If she's well-trained, she can make that distinction. And that's the reason to be a mind-only school follower because then you can not yell back.

Okay. Here we go. Let's do like another two, three minutes, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Sure. Yay. Wuna, semchen shepay ndrelpar.

Semchen ni dak tang sheng gi gyula wangpo. Ngar nangwa kang yinpao shepay nutu shena.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, now somebody comes up and says, look Tsongkhapa, that was a very beautiful idea you had. Directly we see the husband. Indirectly we understand he's coming from our own kunshi.

I got that. But that position is thrown into question. I like to translate damage that way.

That position is thrown into question by the commentary to the word being.

[Speaker 2]
Semchen, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Now there's only 4,660 texts in the database from India which have the word being in them, okay? Maybe this is a little bit irritating, Tsongkhapa. We already determined it was Lord Maitreya from like 20...

Yeah, it's uttannam jeya, Madhyantavibhanga. So anyway, look, the other guy says your position, Tsongkhapa, is thrown into question by the way the word being is explained in the commentary. And he doesn't tell us which commentary either.

Yeah. And the commentary says, semchen ni tatang shen gyi gyu la wangpung la nangwa kang yinpao The living being is that thing which appears to the five sense powers within my being and other people's being. Okay?

That throws into question your position, Tsongkhapa. Okay. Thankfully, we're gonna do this next time.

It's just getting good. Yeah. Yeah, it means, come on.

Well, then how can multiple people see people? Okay. Something like that.

All right. New question. How can everybody on the Zoom call see word?

[Speaker 2]
With karma. Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
We got that right.

[Speaker 2]
If that was annoying, you're back.

[Speaker 1]
Exactly. That's Japanese food.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Sashibuki.

[Speaker 1]
Iijushi. Iijushi.

[Speaker 2]
Iijushi. Iijushi. Iijushi.

Iijushi. Iijushi. Iijushi.

Iijushi. Iijushi. Iijushi.

Iijushi. Iijushi. Iijushi.

Iijushi. Iijushi. Iijushi.

Iijushi. Iijushi. Iijushi.

Iijushi. Shio.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, you guys. We're gonna, I mean, tomorrow's the last day of a hard, hard week and then we're gonna take today's break, so don't whine. Just think about your vacation.

Thank you, Geshe-la. Thanks for it.

[Speaker 3]
Geshe-la, do you happen to have a version of Interlude on Emptiness after the last class?

[Speaker 1]
I don't think so.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, I can send it. I'll send you what I have. How's that?

[Speaker 3]
Oh, thank you so much.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so I'm sending you three texts.

[Speaker 3]
Cool.

[Speaker 1]
All right, everybody, there's a stay tuned if you want to join the Q&A. There's a Q&A session coming up right now, or we can, you know, take a little two minute break. Who's it with, Nick?

With me. Wow. Wow.

I hope you asked all your tough questions already. And we can just talk about different flavors of ice cream and things like that. We love you guys a lot.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you so much.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. Thank you.

[Speaker 2]
Good night, everybody.

[Speaker 1]
Thanks.