Сугэн Ши — Книга 2: Колесо жизни (первый принцип и подразделения зависимости), занятие 64

[Speaker 1]
Good evening, good afternoon, good everything. Welcome to another exciting adventure with Xuanzang's Tower. Mr. Su Gengxi is here. We're going to go through the Wheel of Life text with him today. It's another team class. For those of you who don't know, a team class is where we mix nuts, work together to try to decipher the deep meaning within these texts.

Without the help of our brilliant and great scholar Geshe Michael. So we're learning and we're developing these skills together. So special thanks to everyone here who participates in the Good Night Book Club.

And thanks to our tech team, the Worldview Productions tech team. Thanks to all of our interpreters and all the mixed nuts and everybody who's here. Thank you for participating.

Su Geng, you have a homework ready for us? Yes, I have the homework ready. Take it away.

Okay, let me make it big and share the screen. All right, so I hope somebody still remember what we discussed last month about the content. What is the condition to stop the contact as link number six to trigger feeling as link number seven?

And as a result, triggering initial desire as link number eight. So anybody remember? So yeah, anybody?

So what is the condition? I think we discussed about this, about conditions, about the fact that link number six as contact does not necessarily trigger link number seven as feeling and also all the links after that. The condition to stop it.

Yes, the condition to stop it. Can you hear me, guys? Good.

Somebody. What is that? I think.

Oh, yes. Okay. Hold the correct word, Will.

Yes. So, yeah. The contact as link number six has to be infected by misunderstanding.

But isn't every single link in the Wheel of Life infected by misunderstanding? That's correct. That's correct.

Yeah, Geshe Michael call it broken equipment and all links in the Wheel is infected. But specifically, Master Vasubandhu put the emphasis on link number six. I don't know why, but.

Could be the answer for any links. Oh, sorry. I said this.

It seems that this answer could apply to any of the links. Well, yeah, but I don't know. I mean, just in this part, he emphasized this specifically.

So I'm not really sure why, but yeah, he was. I remember Geshe Michael was. He mentioned before when we, I forgot which Lamrim, discussing about the Wheel of Life, he actually mentioned that beside link number one to stop the Will, we can also work on eight and nine, eight and nine, which is the initial desire and the advanced desire.

So apparently I feel because of that, the trigger to eight and nine basically are six and seven. So we just want to make sure that they are not infected and they don't trigger the subsequent one. I agree that it is applicable to all the links in the Wheel, but somehow, I don't know why Master Vasubandhu mentioned link number six specifically.

Yeah. Unless, well, I don't know. Anybody has other thoughts on this when you are hard?

Because feeling will lead to our action. Negative feeling will lead to a wrong action. Action you mean?

Yeah. Action. Okay.

I see. Feeling lead to action. Feeling lead to action.

Well, yeah, I don't know. I think I kind of agree with what Venerable Umpala mentioned or even Nick that this applicable to all the links. So I'm confused now.

Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, no, no. It's not your fault, but it's a good trigger.

Sorry for the pun here, but yeah, it's a good trigger. All right. So if we were to, yeah, so I was thinking, you know, well, I think there are a few points for discussion.

So does this thing has to be part of the link in the Wheel? Can we just say, I mean, is this misunderstanding? Does this misunderstanding have to be part of the Wheel?

[Speaker 2]
Yes. Sorry.

[Speaker 1]
The Wheel is the cycle in samsara. There's, you know, if you're not in samsara, you're not in the Wheel. So by definition, it must be infected with misunderstanding.

Well, I mean, what I'm saying is that this misunderstanding, does it have to be part of the Wheel? We discussed in a previous book by Kedrap Thempadargye, he was saying that not all misunderstanding will serve as the first link that trigger the Wheel. So my question here is that this misunderstanding infecting link number six, does this has to be the misunderstanding as part of the first link?

And to recall what we discussed earlier, he was saying that the only misunderstanding, which is part of the Wheel, should be misunderstanding of me and mine, and not any other things. So I don't, I'm just thinking aloud here. So will this misunderstanding, should this misunderstanding part of the the first link to infect link number six?

So if yes, then, sorry, what are you saying? Probably, my guess is yes. My guess is yes, too, right?

Because otherwise, if not, if not, I mean, if the answer is yes, then misunderstanding of anything other than me and mine will not, theoretically, it will not be, it will not serve as the first link and it will not serve to infect link number six to create the trigger to all other links. Yeah. Okay.

Isn't link six where identification of the object happens? Then if that did not include these qualities in it, then I would not feel pleasure or displeasure from it, etc. Okay.

Is this a question or is this a statement? But there is a question mark, so I assume it's a question. Isn't link number six where the identification of the object happens?

Identification of the object. What is link number six? Link number six is contact, right?

And we are saying that link number six was triggered by link number five, which is the five windows of the house. So at that moment, do we identify the object? In fact, contact will only happen when the three things come together, right?

The object, the sense organ, and the awareness of the senses. So I think we can say that when those three things come together, then identification happens. So I would say that the answer is yes.

I hope I'm right. All right, so let's move on. So is there a target of completing the homework within the 10 minutes?

Indeed, as I mentioned, but not close, so I'm not going to stress it. But yeah, let's keep going. All right.

Okay. How does Master Vasubandhu explain the reason why the mind in the highest level of formless realm cannot be both virtuous and non-virtuous? Does anyone remember?

[Speaker 3]
Well, it cannot be virtuous because if it was, then those beings there couldn't left the higher realms, the formless realm.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that is a right answer. I just quoted from the text and the fact that I'm putting it here because I think that all of us can discuss the reasoning together. So in the text, Master Vasubandhu was saying that there is no normal, virtuous and non-virtuous thought processes.

Sugeng, when you ask the question, do you mean that it can't be both at the same time? Or do you mean like either virtuous or non-virtuous?

[Speaker 2]
Either.

[Speaker 1]
It cannot be either. You are right. It cannot be either virtuous and non-virtuous.

Or, yeah. Okay. Or, either or.

Either or, yeah. It's just, yeah. Yeah.

Those distinctions are so important, especially in the studying a debate text. That's very true. Yeah.

That's very true. So, yeah. So I'm putting up this here so that we, yeah.

So because there are no normal, virtuous and non-virtuous thought processes at the formless realm, this is referring to the mind consciousness. Besides, there is also no contact in there. No contact in there.

Yeah. So this is the answer from the Master. So, yeah.

Can you explain a little bit, Sugeng? What does this exactly mean? Yeah.

So we are at a point where we are talking about the mind. We are talking about the consciousness, right? Of a person in the formless realm.

Yeah. We are talking about the, we are still on the topic of whether the consciousness is caused by the contact or caused by the raw karma, right? And so, basically, Master Vasubandhu is using all these examples to prove that it has to be raw karma.

It cannot be contact. So he brought in this person, this being in the formless realm. And, well, he also added that there is no contact.

So the consciousness, although it is very, very subtle in the formless realm, cannot, it's impossible to come from contact. Or yes, from contact. So this is one.

And the other thing is that he was saying that, yeah, in the formless realm, there is no normal thought processes, which are either virtuous, which is either virtuous or non-virtuous. So this is what he was trying to prove. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Anahilic consciousness is link number three, which is the monkey. All right. So yeah, let's continue.

What are the four typically different forms of neutral state of mind? Anybody remember what are the four forms?

[Speaker 3]
One is karmic results.

[Speaker 1]
Karmic ripening. Yeah. And then?

[Speaker 3]
Like the things you do every day.

[Speaker 1]
The thing that you do every day. You go through every day. Yeah.

Two more.

[Speaker 3]
Mind engaged in making something.

[Speaker 1]
Mind engaged in making something. And finally? The mind in emanation.

The mind of the emanator or emanatee. Yeah, I put it here already. Yeah.

So Geshe Michael was saying that it is the mind of the emanator, which is kind of confusing to me, you know. But I thought the emanator and emanatee are the same. Are they not the same?

Well, an emanatee would be the person who's absorbing the emanation. What is an emanatee? The result.

The person emanated. Oh, the result. Right.

That is interesting. Right. So if a Buddha was emanating a monkey, the question is, are they the same mind?

I think it's a reasonable question. Okay. So if the Buddha is emanating as a, what is that, monkey?

So the Buddha is the emanator and the monkey is the emanatee. So are they in the same mind? Oh, gosh.

That's kind of a good question. I don't know. I don't want to go there.

Buddha is emanating my dog, but my dog can't talk. But Buddha speaks Sanskrit. My dog does not speak Sanskrit.

Well, the mind doesn't speak Sanskrit either. It's a good point. And my dog doesn't have the right kind of mouth to form the syllable.

Yeah. Sarani has wondered this for a long time. I've thought about this too.

I wonder. I think it's a really cool question. Your dog is a dog to you.

That's true. Your dog is a dog to you. That's true.

Yeah. That's very true. He's a good boy to me.

Yeah. All right. Let's continue.

Anybody? The condition which happens right after? In an instant, yeah.

Redirect the mind in an instant there. Yeah. And then jitangir, jitangir.

How it becomes, how it happens? How is it possible? I mean, Geshe-la used that term.

Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah. And what is the real meaning of lung du maten, lung maten?

The Buddha never got around to saying it. Never clarified. Yeah.

I was looking for this word, never clarified. All right. Okay.

Shall we just go directly to the text and look at there? Yeah, whatever. I mean, I think it's probably a good idea.

But anyway, we can do from here too. I think it's pretty helpful if you have put your English already. Yes.

Maybe let me just go to the text because they are the same anyway. So here it is. Okay, here it is.

Let me change my screenshot. So the homework and my homework question ended here. But the day we continued our discussion, we started to treat the first four possibilities of the neutral, karmically neutral seeds, right?

Karmically neutral position. So the first one, we are talking about the karmic ripening. So I was kind of fortunate because Geshe-la has his notes.

So I checked through one by one the word and this is sort of what I weaved out of each word. What about the reis shik though?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, provisionally.

[Speaker 1]
The reis shik. Yeah, that's all. Otherwise it looks good to me.

Provisionally speaking, comma or something. Yeah, reis shik. The first words of the Tibetan there.

Yeah, reis shik, right? It usually means provisionally or maybe there's a nice way to say that that's even more relatable. Provisionally, right?

Provisionally. Okay. All right.

Reis shik. Okay. So provisionally, it would be incorrect, mirik te.

It would be incorrect to say that nam par mim par le jung wa yin par ni. So the state of mind in the formless realm, the state of mind. So would that be the day?

That would be the day, right? Yeah. The state of mind in the formless realm.

Jung wa came from the ripening of the karma. All right. Good enough?

Any comment? What was the last sentence in the book? Say again?

[Speaker 2]
What was the last sentence in the book?

[Speaker 1]
In order to make sure that the day is referring to. It includes the four different types of neutral. Yeah.

Yeah. So the four different types of neutral. Oh, I see.

Thank you. All right. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Actually, we went through this. But anyway, it's a good review, good revision for me. So mirik te, it is incorrect to say that the si pe tse mo sem kyi juk tok, the state of mind.

No, it's not. Si pe tse mo, do you know what it is? Yeah, the top, the highest, right?

The top of the samsara. Yeah. Just after.

So juk tok, immediately. Juk tok, just after, immediately. Dupa na.

[Speaker 2]
Where's the na?

[Speaker 1]
Dupa na. You might want to start the sentence with the dupa na. Dupa na, if it is in the.

Dupa. No. Oh, I see.

You thought dupa. Is it, is it desire realm here? Or is it, it's usually, maybe I'm confused.

Usually dupa na is like, if you agree to that, but maybe you're right, if it's here, it's in the desire realm.

[Speaker 2]
I think it is desire realm, because they're talking about the locus of samsara.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, right, right, right. It's usually just dupa na. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dupa makes a good point. Or is it, is it desire realm, or is it desire realm-er? Right.

Dupa. Maybe it doesn't matter.

[Speaker 2]
I mean.

[Speaker 1]
It's a realm. If it was dupa na, it should be. Some, there's definitely some elements missing here, but.

Oh, Ngeshi Michael basically translated the whole thing right there. Yeah. Yeah.

He, he, the notes are so helpful. What is this dupa? Dupa means what?

Follow, acting?

[Speaker 2]
Act, experience.

[Speaker 1]
Experience, right? Okay. So the mind, the, the, the state of mind from the ripening, no, Nampal Mimpa is the.

Oh, it looks like it's saying ripening from deeds. So the, the chippa would be the operating here, right? Operating, operating there.

I think it's just, you know, which is operating. Yeah, so state of mind, which is a karmic ripening and operating in a desire realm, right? Yeah.

Okay. All right. So experience here.

Yeah, Ngeshi Michael did seem to interpret it as operating here. Okay. Of course, it makes perfect sense.

All right, let's move on. So we are just saying that because there are, there, there are other seven lower levels, right? But our chippa is separating, correct?

Separated. Okay. Separated, interrupted.

Yeah, parche, parchu. Same. Blocking.

Okay. Interrupting. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Because there are seven other levels.

Can you just go back to the one that we, we didn't quite finish it. And I'm not saying we need to finish it, but go back one more. I want to make sure that I'm able to continue the flow of thought here.

So I feel like if it's going too fast for me, then probably there's one or two other people who. Okay. So basically what it's saying is that you can't go to the desire realm right after peak of existence.

Yes, this is what it is. It's strange. That does appear to be what it's saying, but that's not super because hell realms are part of the desire realm, right?

So it's interesting. Oh yeah. Hell realm is, well, yeah, this is what I clarified with Geshe-la and, and we, we sort of saying that, well, there are two things here, right?

One, the one thing is that the first one is that Master Vasubandhu saying that it is, it cannot jump directly to the desire realm because of the other seven realms in between. And secondly, Geshe-la, I mean, I clarified with Geshe-la and he said that the unshifting karma will not allow that to happen as well. But the fact that we always said that from the formless realm, when the good seeds are finished, the being will fall into the hell realm.

And, and because the unshifting karma, karmas are finished, there are only shifting karma, bad negative shifting karmas left. That's why the being will fall to the hell realm. Sort of explanation.

Yeah. Interesting. Okay.

Yeah. I mean, I was trying to clarify and that was sort of my understanding. Anybody has any other understanding?

All these are the technicalities. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So then, then the next one where we were just finishing is he's giving the reason that, that a birth in the desire realm couldn't follow a peak of existence. Whoops.

[Speaker 2]
Sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Because there's those other realms in between. Okay. That's what he's doing.

He is giving that reason. Yeah. Okay.

And yeah, and then, yeah, this is the reason because there are those seven. Yeah. Okay.

So the mind ripening in the highest of the formless realm. And this, I don't really understand. I mean, I just, I just recorded what Geshe-la said.

And it would be incorrect to say that the mind ripening in the highest form, highest of the formless realm is the state of mind as you are born in the desire realm. I don't even understand English. That is what the Tibetan says, as far as I can see.

Yeah. But how should I separate? How does that relate to what we were just saying?

Yeah. I need help here. Is it as you are?

That seems to be the confusing point, Nick. Oh, state of mind as you are. That's a good point.

It doesn't even make sense. Yeah. So that the mind ripening in the highest part of the formless realm is the state of mind.

Oh, that you have? Yeah. What's the, what's the West Chinese there?

Yeah. The yin is, is, but then the su is like, it shouldn't be as it should be. Should be.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Instead of mind born in the desire realm. Is this, is this what they're saying? The state of mind that you have.

That you have. Something like that. I don't know.

It doesn't say that directly, but it has to be something like that. Right. It's referred, but the, because the su is in, and then sometimes we have to throw in some English words to make it make sense.

That you have when born in the desire realm, something like that.

[Speaker 2]
Whether you have, as you were born in the desire realm. I don't know. You pick.

[Speaker 1]
I was thinking that too. Yeah. Okay.

This makes sense. It's a state of mind that you have as you are born. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

That makes it sound true. I mean, logically, I mean, it's illogical, right? When you are born in desire realm, how can you have the state of mind in the highest of the formless realm?

Yeah. Although, I mean, I guess, it's also mirik though too. Yeah.

Oh yeah. That's right. Yeah.

Well, I mean, but this, this argument kind of lame. Sorry to say that.

[Speaker 2]
Oh yeah.

[Speaker 1]
We, we mix nuts often include to say, which is probably helps the English a lot. I think that comes from Geshe Michael. He's always saying it wouldn't be incorrect to say.

Yeah. But the West Chinese doesn't say that. So I think it's implied, right?

It's implied with the mirik. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. So can I move on? It's up to you.

Yeah. This is up to me. All right.

Okay. Could never ripen in the desire realm, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Good in, right? Yeah.

Okay. You don't need the article. Say again.

Could never ripen in the desire realm. All right. Yeah.

I'm shifting comma. It does sound correct. English.

And, and you can say never, but it doesn't say that it just says, does not. Yeah. I mean, if you could say it for emphasis, I suppose.

I think so, but yeah, there is no good point. So all this virtuous and I'm shifting. Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Well, I think means being able to, doesn't it? Being able to do something.

[Speaker 1]
No, that's a verb. Mimparjepa is just ripen. Oh, it just, yeah.

Makes a ripening into a ripen. Yeah. It's, it's just a continuation of the verb, like ING or something, or ER ripen, ripening.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Let's move on. So this is totally new. And I think this is very helpful.

English Michael put here, free will. Excellent translation. Yes, exactly the same.

Yeah. Well, you capitalized the I quite well. It cannot be free will, right?

Cannot be free will. Which is literally like, you can't just do whatever you want or something, right? Cannot, right?

That's cool. I think that this sentence right here is a pretty good opening for the 15 minute discussion after the class. Oh, yeah.

I mean, something we've probably all been wondering about for many years. Cannot be free will.

[Speaker 2]
So gang, there's a question in the chat about what is unshifting karma.

[Speaker 1]
Unshifting karma. Yeah. Geshe Michael have the notes here.

Basically, unshifting karma is, well, I mean, okay, let me roughly explain. So we have the desire realm and then the higher realms. Higher realms refer to the form and formless realms, right?

And when we are operating in desire realms, when we are operating in the desire realm, we work on the three kinds of karma. The good, the positive, the negative and the neutral. When we operate on the higher realms, and those in desire realms are called shifting karma.

And when we operate on the higher realms, we call them unshifting karma. Mainly the reason is that they are not shifting. They cannot change destination.

So this is a simple way of explaining. And they are considered virtuous. I mean, if you, well, I mean, if we want to discuss further, you should listen to the translation session that we had for the previous book, right?

We talk about it a lot, right? We talk about 3, 9 plus 12 plus 5, 17 sub-levels in the form realm. And out of the 17, we have 9, we have 12 plus 5.

You know, I mean, those math, mathematics are exciting, but I don't think I want to talk about them here, you know? How exciting isn't the first adjective that would have come to my mind, but that's awesome that you... It's exciting, I would say.

What's the West Chinese phrase for, I fear that I would go on too long? I could just... Fear going too long?

Like, I fear that I could describe it here, but I fear that I would... Yeah, I forgot. What is that?

Talk. Something. Talk.

Whatever. Anyway. Oh, this is Jane.

I know Jane. Jane asking that question. Okay, we can talk about it offline.

Well, but the main essence of Unshifting Karma is basically that it's definitely going to ripen in a particular realm and not in some other realm, right? I mean, that's it. I suspect I would say too many words.

Thank you. Thanks for it. Okay, I fear I would go on too long.

All right. Okay, let's continue. This is talking about what?

The person in the cessation meditation?

[Speaker 2]
No, that's talking about the meditation itself.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, itself. Okay. Okay.

And what is this? The people. Except the one in that meditation.

Oh, the people in... Okay, those in that meditation. How do you...

Free will.

[Speaker 2]
They also... Well, it says muric at the end, but they also have free will. That's what it says without the muric.

[Speaker 1]
I see.

[Speaker 2]
So it would be...

[Speaker 1]
So regarding this meditation, the deep cessation meditation, it is impossible, it is impossible, it is incorrect to say that those people, or those people in the deep cessation meditation have free will because they are coming from karmic ripening. Oh, yeah. I think that the yang yinpa, you could think of it here more like a but.

But? No, yang is often but. That's how I'm seeing it.

What do you guys think? Yeah, even so. It's kind of like, yeah.

Or although, yeah. I was thinking it was the and so it is here. Yeah, and is how Geshe-la...

And so it is. Yeah, and so it is. And so, yeah, okay, okay.

I think Adam's right, I agree. Okay, yeah. And so it is.

So can I... So what I'm saying here is wrong. Is that...

Can I say that this is wrong? The... No, it's not really a therefore, but...

It is a therefore, Nick. That S after yinpa is a therefore. Oh, yang yinpe.

Oh, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Therefore.

Therefore. Okay, the person in the state of... In that state of mind have free will.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So are we saying that... So we are saying that it is incorrect to say that they could be...

They could be coming from... They could be coming from karmic ripening. And because of that, those are not free will, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's probably talking about their state of mind, but yeah. The translation you have is...

Seems pretty good. Seems good, yeah. So is this saying it's impossible to create the karma to be in a state of deep cessation meditation?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Is that right?

Is that the meaning? That's the logic. To create the causes to be a person who could be in a deep state of cessation meditation.

The person in that state of mind has free will, and therefore it is incorrect to say that they could be coming. Oh, yeah. Is it...

Wait, is this the second part incorrect, or is the whole thing incorrect? That's a question I have. Yeah, I think it's not clear.

Yeah, isn't the whole thing incorrect?

[Speaker 2]
It's incorrect to say that people, meditators in a deep state of meditation have free will, because then they wouldn't have come from a karmic ripening.

[Speaker 1]
It is also... Because the last statement said it is... Now we're saying it's also the case for this.

So the people in that deep state of meditation have free will, and because of that, those free will cannot be coming from karmic ripening. That is the English that I'm reading here. You know, I hate to talk about kittens and rainbows again, but I feel like sometimes we get further entrenched in this book in particular, if we try to go on.

Yeah. Like it just kind of muddies, like it just keeps getting more and more muddy. It is muddy.

I think it was a good question. To see if the me-rick is distributed, but it's hard to say until we find out what the heck he's trying to point, he's trying to land on. I mean, Geshe-la's notes disagree with me, but it's just a weird statement.

So he says, according to Geshe-la's notes, what Sugeng said is correct. So... Okay.

I think... He does often say these were notes he made a really long time ago. Yeah, that's true.

You're right. That's true. I mean, let's keep it here and see what comes up later.

Yeah. Yeah, we go on to the next one. Because usually when they put the me-rick like that, it means the whole statement, like in the last one, me-rick.

But that's why I say that. And there's not even a shake. There's not even a comment separating.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so I think the me-rick might be distributed, might have to be distributed, right? It's possible.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I think so.

[Speaker 1]
It is incorrect to say that. Yeah, the subject of the sentence is that nyam par jukpa de la nyam par jukpa po nam.

[Speaker 3]
Those people basically who are in a deep state of cessation meditation, that's your subject, right? Yes. That's what we're talking about.

[Speaker 1]
It comes before the ni.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
So it would be incorrect to say that the free will is coming from karmic ripening. Hmm. Yeah, it's also another very, I think that's a good possibility.

So, okay. And that makes sense, right? If something is within, if something is caused by karma, it's like sort of by definition, not free will.

Because you're forced to have that experience, there's like not free will involved. Right? Yeah.

Well, can't you have a free will that was created by karma? Well, it wouldn't be technically free will. You could...

It wouldn't be technically self-existent free will, but it would be free will. Yeah, you can call anything, anything.

[Speaker 2]
No, you can't. If you call it a rock, a diamond doesn't make it a diamond. I'm just saying you could have a free will that came from karma.

[Speaker 1]
Can we? Please, Sugeng. I mean, I'm confused here.

When we say free will, when we say free will, does it mean that they don't come from karma and by implication they are self-existent? Well, that's what we're examining here. I don't even think the book is necessarily making that distinction about whether it's self-existent or not.

It seems so far, unless I'm forgetting something, but it seems so far like the book is just flat out saying that if something's karma, that it's not free will. So in that way, it's like leaning on maybe a more Abhidharma interpretation of causality so far. Can we...

Can we get a peek at the next? It's done. We're going on to the next.

We are going to the next one. Oh, I see. Yeah.

I see. Oh, that's the end of the section? Yeah, we moved to the next one.

Anyway. But typically, if just... I'm confused because we do so many different books in the Mixed Nuts, but this one is...

This book is more from the perspective of mind only, usually, right? Yes, this book, yeah. Hmm.

Well, it would be Svatantrika that leans towards mind only. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true.

Yeah. Okay. Mixing all my life.

Sorry. Let's leave it there. And yeah, hopefully...

I think at the end of this discussion, I think the conclusion is that this is also not considered as a neutral karma. Or if it is a neutral karma, it would have to be something else. So I don't know.

I'm just guessing. So, all right. Shall we continue?

Sure. Let's continue.

[Speaker 3]
Butterflies and rainbows. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Butterfly. Oh. So, we have the yin and the wei.

It is also not... It is also not the case for the mind during the regular activities. Not the nature...

Yeah, you put the whole in there. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
The nature.

[Speaker 1]
Of the... It is also not the case for the... Or you could say also not the nature of the mind.

It is also not the nature of the mind. Well, hold on. I'm not sure it's of the mind.

Yeah, it's not of the mind. It's a... So, it's the nature of...

Of? Of the... Regular activities?

Yeah, things like those activities. Of those regular activities. Okay.

Okay. So, I wonder why Geshe-la translated ch'ilam, lasok, as habitual activity or unintentional activity. I think from the list above.

The old notes, he put habitual unintentional activity, but the last month he translated as regular activities. So, I just think that he changed to this to be more precise. Okay.

Yeah, I mean, this is my conclusion. Yeah. Okay, good.

Thank you. You're welcome. My pleasure.

Are those people in the deep cessation meditation? Ch'ilam lasok pa, ngön par du che pa, mi si pe che ro. And because it is impossible, mi si pe, can we say mi si pe as impossible?

It's impossible, right? Of course, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

[Speaker 1]
For those to perform, ngön par du che pa, can I say to perform? I like it. Isn't that to manifest?

[Speaker 2]
Manifest.

[Speaker 1]
Actualize. But, I mean, in this case, wouldn't you say perform is a pretty good? Yeah, for both activities and yes, I agree.

Okay, okay. Oh, okay. So, this is good.

All right. And the third possibility. Yeah, cool.

Is it the mind performing regular activities? Or is it, well, Geshe Michael put collect one's thoughts. Which I definitely would not have thought of.

Collect one's thoughts. He specifically told us to ignore those notes. But those are good.

Those are good. Those are good hints, right? Wait, which ones are the new notes?

And which ones are the old notes? No, all these English are old notes. There is no new notes.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, okay. Yeah, so we gotta be careful.

[Speaker 1]
These are my attempt at translation. Yeah. Yeah.

So, he's saying if the mind were to gather, sem ngön par du che pa. So, it seems like sem ngön par du che pa seems like it means that your mind is becoming clear enough to want to do something, right? Mind.

It's not like, because if I just read that myself without any of Geshe Michael's notes, I would think it would mean like the mind to even come into existence. Or your thoughts to even become manifest in your mind. Or, yeah, to even happen.

Yeah. Yeah, happen, exactly. How would you translate this sem ngön par du che?

Becoming manifest or something. Becoming manifest. I'm not saying that's correct.

That's just how I would initially think. I don't think you would need becoming though, Nick. It's just.

Yeah, as for the mind manifesting or as for manifesting the mind or thoughts. Something like that, yeah. Because it doesn't say performing regular activities.

Right. There's no ch'lam here. And collecting.

Yeah. There's a te though. That's referring to that.

Yeah, that mind. Sem ngön par du che pa. Yeah.

How would you, how would you say? Kind of the as for here, but. As for?

No, no, no, I'm not. I'm saying you kind of translated it as as for, but.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Collecting. The mind collecting thoughts. That's the, that's for the.

It wouldn't even be the mind here. Yeah. It would be like the mind becoming activated or something.

I'm trying to think of a nice way to say.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, right.

[Speaker 1]
I said, and it's like. Yeah. I could even phrase it more simply.

Like, how could the mind even. There's no, there's no even. Is there?

Te yang. Yang. Yeah.

How could the mind even become activated without contact? Or something like that?

[Speaker 2]
Become activated.

[Speaker 1]
Is that yang? And I'm guessing now that it's an even, but I could be wrong. Could the mind.

It seems like it is. It seems. How could the mind even become activated?

If it was my text and I was going to show it to Geshe Michael, I would venture out to put that even in there, but that's just me. Yeah. How could, how could, how could the mind even.

Like occur, like actualize itself without. It would be in a. There's no way it would be inappropriate.

It would, it's ridiculous to say or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what it seems like.

I would put that even with an iron fist. No, it's, it's, it's nine. All right.

Rimrock central time. Rimrock standard time. So that means that we are, I didn't mean to cut it immediately, but I just, that's, we're at time for, for, for our working on the translation for today.

And, and now we're going to move in when you're ready, Sugeng, to a 15 minute discussion led by Sugeng in English. But because we didn't prepare, Sugeng, just a question for next time. Yeah.

I know you speak Chinese. Is your Chinese like super fluent and you could do this in Chinese next time? You mean the discussion?

Yeah. I can, but I prefer to speak in English. Okay.

Yeah, yeah. I am for the future anyway, but okay, cool, cool, cool. Preference is important.

Yeah. Take me out. I want to hear from other people.

Okay. We went through some discussions today. Well, basically we discussed the three possibilities of the, the three types of possible, the three types of possible reasons to consider the, to consider the, the fact that, to consider the possibilities that the, something is karmically neutral.

We are talking about the mind of the, the mind of the some being in the deep cessation meditation in the highest level of the formless realm. And we discussed that it cannot be virtuous, which is positive. It cannot be non-virtuous, which is negative.

And now we are on the topic of whether it is karmically neutral. And Master Vasubandhu presented three or four common situations of karmically neutral cases. And we are, we discussed the first three today.

The first one is, well, to repeat the four karmically neutral forms, typical forms are basically the, those occurring during a karmic ripening and then the mind during regular activities. As we go through the day, the mind engaged in making something, Geshe Michael said, something related to our occupation and not particularly creative. And finally, the mind in maintaining an emanation.

So we, we treated the first three. So the first one is the karmic ripening. And we mentioned that, well, I'm reading my notes here.

It would be incorrect to stay, to say that the state of mind in the formless realm came from karmic ripening. Oh, okay. Which is interesting.

And then we- It's karmic ripening. It didn't have any, it had free will. Yeah.

And we- If someone decided to do that meditation, it must not be karma. Yeah. Interesting.

I'm confused too. I'm confused too. It's kind of interesting here.

I mean, because we don't have any conclusion yet. So it is very confusing. And yeah, we also say that the mind cannot be virtuous.

And well, I mean, we say that the mind cannot be virtuous and non-virtuous because there is no basic nature of the virtuous and non-virtuous. And because of that, now we are saying that. I'm sorry, I'm so confused myself.

I hope I don't confuse all of you. We don't have to do like a detailed review of the material. We can just see what- Anybody has any idea.

Anybody has thoughts about how these things relate to our worlds, including confusion, as Christina is pointing out. Okay, I'm sorry. Yeah, the only one that made sense to me was the second one.

Yeah. If you're in deep cessation meditation, you're not doing regular activities. So it's impossible.

Yay. Okay. I get that.

That's easy. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah, Venerable Gyalse, you want to say something?

[Speaker 2]
I was just going to say that this is, ever since I've been in the Dharma, big conversation and a very confusing one. Does free will exist? Does it exist because you have the karma to have free will?

And so to me, we're still just working on this self-existent way of looking at free will, I think. And it's hard for us to wrap our minds around it.

[Speaker 3]
So both the text and us are trying to get to that, and it is confusing. That's all. We're still working on it, right?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Even without thinking of seeds and results, what is free will? It's one of the deepest questions of all of us.

There's a million factors influencing me right now. There's a hungry dog and a daughter looking at me, and that influences how I'm thinking and what I might do. You know what I will do in this kind of situation is to bring back the different hats that Geshe Michael likes to refer to.

So I will, I don't know, I mean, I will bring out the hats, you know? Okay, now, if we were to put on the higher middle way, then we should say that free will must have come from seeds. They cannot be self-existent, right?

But if we were to put on the right hat based on this book, in fact, the will of life itself was taught as part of the lowest school. So if we were to consider this point, then as long as it is not the higher middle way, there is still this 50-50 kind of thing. So free will, so if I were to put on that hat, I would agree that free will does not come from karmic ripening.

Yeah, I mean, and I don't think it's a binary thing where you can say, excuse me, it is a binary thing where it either exists or it doesn't, you know?

[Speaker 2]
There's no kind of like middle ground there.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, who is that? My assistant, excuse me. She's so deep now.

Is the one who gives Adam an illusion of free will. Oh, my goodness.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, you know, I had this, right, because even how we respond to any given karmic ripening is going to be coming from previous seeds too, right? So, I mean, it would seem to me like if you were to follow it all the way back, yeah, that there will be an illusion of free will.

[Speaker 1]
And, you know, where my mind came down to when I was kind of considering it, because it's something, you know, for as long as I've been studying karma and emptiness, I've had this same kind of question. And I was like, you know, I think it's only your teacher that can kind of break that chain.

[Speaker 2]
It's really when you have somebody teach you about karma and emptiness that maybe you're kind of freed from that illusion.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, agree. Yeah, that's why I always like to use the head metaphor. So, yeah, as long as we put on the number six, I call it the head number six from the six flavors of emptiness.

So if we were to put on head number six, everything, there is nothing which is not coming from our seeds. So free will should also come from our karmic ripening. But if we were to talk about the other schools, the other heads, even head number five itself, we can say that, yeah, they are 50-50.

So, yeah. Yes, I mean, so can you I mean, it's one of the reasons I think I'm so thankful.

[Speaker 2]
I mean, this particular question is one of the reasons I'm so thankful that I met Geshe Michael and that I have a very pure kind of lineage that can give me all the distinctions and everything that I need to know about karma and emptiness. Because before that, it's just hopeful. I mean, it's hopeless.

And there's really no I feel like that's when you're kind of stuck in free will, really.

[Speaker 1]
And then when you meet your teacher, that's when everything kind of changes. You know, when you actually have a good explanation on karma and its effects. And yes, I think, you know, for me, yeah, I it's when I think about it, it just makes me incredibly thankful, incredibly thankful.

Properly agree with you, Adam. I yeah, I was in Indonesia the last few weeks and then we were talking about. And we were talking about the proof of future life and then and then people bring in all these arguments.

You know, why if I know I'm a Lee. I just wanted to see a real quick. She's in the middle of breakfast right now.

Eva, you showed me how to crawl way back.

[Speaker 2]
Do you remember that?

[Speaker 1]
It was like free will. It was like the beginning of free movement. We will leave.

[Speaker 2]
I know how to crawl really fast.

[Speaker 1]
Sorry.

[Speaker 2]
Sorry. Yeah, it is. I don't know.

That's that's a very. Yeah, I think. Yeah, free will.

It really is.

[Speaker 1]
It's one of the biggest questions of all of philosophy.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. And I think you can sit. We could we could probably talk about it for hours and hours and hours.

I still don't I still don't understand how it applies, though. And I remember two, two sections were one. We were saying on your pay.

Excuse me. Yeah, I still I'm still having. I got to say your your book in particular is the one that I have this school in particular is one that I have had the most trouble with.

I find that this I have like the least amount of kind of grasp.

[Speaker 1]
I have the least grasp on, like, really what's being presented in this particular school. So, dude, I applaud you because I think you did a really, really good job today, too.

[Speaker 2]
But I would ask again, if you could maybe just briefly kind of connect how free will was connected to the deep state of meditation, like if you engage or enter into it, you don't have free will.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I mean, most of us, Mandu mentioned that. Why he didn't say he didn't prove anything, he just said that free will cannot exist because it is not or rather let me let me pull out the text here. He just said that if it is if it is a karmic ripening, it cannot be free will.

So he just he just throw in this statement and he put the reason. Let me see. He yeah, he just put the reason that.

So, I mean, am I am I missing something?

[Speaker 2]
If I was to interpret this as as being that if there's karma. There is no free will.

[Speaker 1]
If there is if it is a karmic ripening, it is not a free will. This is to be saying.

[Speaker 2]
I mean, so I mean, how it seems to me like you're bound. I mean, if we if we were to say, like, time is beginningless. Right.

So we would have to go all the way back. And we have to say that, OK, well, I've been hopelessly kind of thrown into this kind of realm of rebirth. Right.

And I've been bound to decisions that were. It just it seems to me that I don't know, man, it makes me feel kind of hopeless. If that's the case.

[Speaker 1]
How can I escape the possible? Right.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Like even I mean, I mean, I'm pretty sure that we've all had this kind of thought. We've been studying karmic emptiness long enough to know that even as I'm talking right now, are these like conscious kind of like, you know, am I consciously choosing my words right now or am I just bound to, you know, whatever karma I've planted like ten lifetimes ago, right, or a hundred lifetimes ago?

[Speaker 1]
I mean, it would seem to me like, well, then you really you yeah, you have no choice in the matter. Right. Like you wake in the mornings and whether or not you choose to meditate or not, it's like, you know, you're just kind of following in to this predetermined routine.

[Speaker 2]
I mean, yeah, I was just making sure that I had I had, you know, we're at time. Right.

[Speaker 1]
I just want to say that I just want to say that. Sorry. Just one more minute.

The idea that we have in the Wheel of Life is that our equipment is broken. And because of that, we are looking out as if we are wearing tinted glasses. And by understanding this, that we are looking through tinted glasses, by understanding this, we know that even our free will might be might be might be contaminated with the all might be stained.

So if that is the case, I like to say that we can plant the seeds for free will so that we always have the free will and we should do it with the correct understanding that even those are stained. As the master to plant free will, you mean? OK, we yeah, this is what I'm saying.

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
And as the master of this particular school, how how would you suggest that we go about planting the seeds for free will?

[Speaker 1]
You have to have the seeds to plant the seeds, to plant the seeds, to plant the seeds, to plant the seeds. That would help you plant the seeds for free will.

[Speaker 2]
It gets really recursive, doesn't it? Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And the only way is that when we plant the seeds for free will, we need to understand that even those are stained. And by understanding that those are stained, we have a hope to make them hopefully one day become stainless. And so you serve your teacher.

Sort of one of one of the things, yeah, one of the things that we can do. OK, guys, it's time our seeds. We have no choice but to embrace the world news.

It's indeed time. So I just want to make a quick announcement. First of all, is Mr. Juan here?

[Speaker 2]
I am. I am.

[Speaker 1]
I was waiting for that yawn. And I'm just going to make a quick announcement. Words class that occurs after the Mixed Nuts, Shring Songs, Tower Classes will be held exclusively on Mondays from here on out.

So for more information about Words classes, contact Mr. Word. Take it away, Juan. Nice tie.

Thank you, man. I'm sending my regards from midnight Kyoto life. So, well, luckily, it has been a very, very wonderful trip so far.

And we are only in half of the trip. Soon, Geshe Michael and other friends are going to be arriving to Japan. As you may know, they just had some events in China, actually in mainland China, mainland China.

And they're going to have a few more and then they'll be coming to not a few more, one more and then coming to Japan, if I understand correctly. So because we have friends all over the world, I was able to collect some materials that are organized for you. And I want to share with you a little bit of how the China event went, the last one.

DCI level, I think it was advanced level one, how to turn problems into opportunities. So Gina, if you can help us sharing the video, let's make the screen big and turn the volume on and let's go. Thank you.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 3]
Okay, so there you go.

[Speaker 1]
It looks so fun, no? I think they are having a great, great, great time. And hopefully soon we will be able to hear directly from them how it's going.

Okay, so I would like to do a quick review on a few events that are about to happen very soon. But just first, now we're going to start sharing the pictures of the QR codes and events. Diamond Mountain is planning, as you may have heard, a special retreat on October.

This retreat is going to be talking about special practices for good health and also the wisdom of Arya Nagarjuna. But what they are planning is very interesting because they are offering a pre-retreat just one week before Geshe Michael gets there in October. They want to organize a week that's going to introduce you to the whole mood and it's going to be sharing with you, they're going to be sharing with you practices and classes that are going to help the students to integrate and to slide into the actual retreat.

So if you are interested to spend a week just before the retreat getting into the right mood, getting context of the teachings, and maybe also some techniques that you can implement in your daily life, this may be a good chance for you to get there early and take your pre-retreat. This one is happening on October the 6th to the 11th. And it's going to be mostly led by our dear friend Gyalse.

And maybe, I don't know if Suna may be also involved and some other people, but as far as I understand, mostly Gyalse. And next one, next week, it's going to be the actual retreat. There is a QR code.

That one, Geshe Michael is going to be, mainly Geshe Michael is going to be teaching it. And as I say, mostly Arya Nagarjuna teachings and health practices. Okay, so what's happening next?

Very soon, at the end of June, I think we have next picture, please. Yes, Errol from YSI is going to be leading a very cool series called Inner Kingdom. They are teachings that come from some talks that Geshe Michael gave when he was doing his own three-year retreat.

So part one is going to be happening at the end of this month. You can still register June 29 to June 30, two days. And then part two happening in July.

Just to remind you, in November, YSI is organizing Hatha Yoga Pradipika. You can also start thinking this is to attend. This is going to happen in Sedona College of International Management in Sedona.

Okay, and next we have, what do we have? Yes, in July, July 11 to the 12th, the Innovation Retreat is having their first sessions. Asia or online are happening July 11 to the 12th.

And eventually, they are going to be taking people to Diamond Mountain, which is going to be very interesting. Okay, next picture, please. Uh, yeah, just to remind you that also at the middle of July, Tim Lowenhaupt is leading a little retreat on Taiwan.

So if you happen to be in Taiwan or Asia and you want to go, it's a good chance to study with him, learning about the perfection of giving and how to do retreat. Okay, and finally, just before we move on to our interview for today, just to remind you that the series of the Angel Debates the Devil, the pre-series to catch up with the main event are still going. Last one was led by Gielse also in June 11.

And next one is going to be led by Nicolas Shaw, July the 6th. So if you want to catch up in these classes, you can register. You can get ready for the actual retreat that is happening in July on the 26th to the 28th.

Of July in Mexico City and for that event that is happening. Well, I'm trying to say next, next picture without saying next picture. Thank you so much.

We have a special guest, one of the main producers of this event, which is here with us today. And we want to talk to her a little bit about how things are going and how exciting is it going to be. So with us today, Paulina Garcia, live from Argentina.

She's from Mexico, but these days she's in Argentina. So if she's around, could you please spotlight her?

[Speaker 2]
Hello.

[Speaker 1]
Hello, Paulina. How are you?

[Speaker 2]
Good. And how are you, my dear friend?

[Speaker 1]
I'm very good. Very tired. It's very intense.

The production here doesn't stop. And it's midnight, but happy to be here. Happy to see you.

Happy to be sharing this great news with people. So good. So can you tell us, Paulina, a little bit of what these teachings are going to be about and maybe a little bit of the text that Geshe Michael is using this time for this event?

[Speaker 2]
Yes. Thank you, Juan, for inviting me. I'm very happy to be here.

And I want to say that, yes, you know, Geshe Michael will be offering a very special teaching on the inner workings of our mind in Mexico City from July 26 to 28. So it's Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. It's a weekend.

Okay. And this teaching is called An Angel Debates the Devil. And it's very deep with a lot of logic teaching.

[Speaker 1]
But, you know, also, you will be surprised that at the same time it's extremely funny because it is a debate between the angel and the devil and the good and the bad in our minds. And they both want to win.

[Speaker 3]
So it is so epic, so interesting, so unique, as it reveals the tricky ways that our minds mislead us into believing we are thinking and acting in a way that actually doesn't help us.

[Speaker 2]
And this text, I believe, is actually a poem. And as many of us already know, if we don't learn how to train our mind to think in a correct, with correct view, with wisdom, like the angel, then the devil, which is ignorance, will gain residence in our mind.

[Speaker 1]
So it's gonna be amazing teaching. Please come. Wonderful.

And I know you guys have been organizing retreats in Mexico now for a few years. I would like to ask if you could share with us a little bit of what's your experience on attending these kind of events live versus online. I even know you create a beautiful video whenever you want to show it.

It's a short video. You could show it. Just let us know.

But also, what's your personal experience about these two sites, either online or live? You know, this year, talking about the in-person event, if you come this year, we decide to celebrate these teachings with Geshe Michael, which historically took place in Guadalajara, but now in Mexico City. And there are many reasons for this.

But the main one is our mission of growth these teachings in Latin America. And also, we are very lucky that we have a group of colleagues and friends there who have been practicing all this ancient wisdom for many years.

[Speaker 2]
So it was perfect timing to do it.

[Speaker 1]
So I would like to invite you to join this event, either in person or online. But if you can't, if you can, sorry, attend in person, it's going to be amazing.

[Speaker 2]
We always enjoy welcoming people from around the world. As Mexicans, we find so much joy in serving and connecting with friends. And what can you expect?

A new Mexican family, for sure. All these wisdom classes, a yoga meditation, Mexican food. Who doesn't like Mexican food?

[Speaker 1]
And, you know, it's a whole different experience.

[Speaker 2]
And of course, you will learn from Geshe Michael's life, which is powerful and beautiful and more deep.

[Speaker 1]
And of course, now that it's going to be in Mexico City, you're going to have the opportunity to discover the great Tenochtitlan, which is, you know, Mexico City is known as the cultural capital of America. Being one of the most fascinating destinations in the world. So the hotel is going to be located on Mexico.

Why are you laughing? Is it because I'm Mexican? I'm like, so proud.

[Speaker 2]
No, you know, and the hotel is actually located on the city's most important avenue.

[Speaker 1]
This is going to be the Hotel Barceló Reforma. It's a five star hotel and it is in a location where you will enjoy the spirit of the Mexican culture, the traditions and the modernity of the city. So please come.

Great. So I want to share with people, it's just a one minute video, if we can watch it to finish and then we just say bye and good night or good morning to everyone. But this is a great video from last retreat.

[Speaker 3]
I think sometimes we need these moments to find ourselves and if something gives you this retreat, it is that you find yourself and you find other people in you. But this knowledge is so deep, it is so logical. It has really been a very impressive change of life, to come here and experience all this new philosophy.

What he taught me was that it is a way of living and they make you transform yourself through others.

[Speaker 1]
How can I achieve harmony in my family and become the best version of being a mother, of being a friend, of being a daughter, of being a wife.

[Speaker 3]
Thank you very much to our lives and that we have the opportunity to have the teachings of his living voice. I don't want to leave. The experience is fantastic and it reaches the soul.

[Speaker 1]
I recommend to everyone who has the opportunity to come to a retreat like this and have contact with these ancestral teachings, don't just think about it and come with us. Yeah, wonderful. I think it's going to be very exciting times.

I hope I can be there. I always like going to Mexico. It's really, really awesome.

I see family, I see friends. The energy and the vibe are amazing. So I will also say if you have the chance, coming live, I think it's going to be very, very fun, very, very cool.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, thank you so much, Juan. And see you all in Mexico City, July 26 to 28.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and it's wonderful that Geshe Michael, every year he keeps coming. Now, I don't know, it's almost like, I will say it's almost like 15 years that he has been going every, almost basically almost every year, other than the dark ages of the COVID, but mostly I will say it's wonderful.

[Speaker 3]
I know, we are so lucky. I know.

[Speaker 1]
Great. Okay, Paulina, thank you very much. Good luck with this event.

Thank you for all the work you are doing. And thank you everyone online. Thank you very much.

Hope you have a great rest of your weekend. Have fun and have rest. Both, hopefully.

Sometimes having fun is having rest. I think so. Sometimes having rest is different.

Okay, bye. So no class today. Go back to sleep.

Yeah, I guess that's it for today. I don't know if Tim, sorry, if Nick wants to say anything. Probably not.

Okay, thank you.