Сугэн Ши — Книга 2: Колесо жизни (первый принцип и подразделения зависимости), занятие 63

[Speaker 1]
The homework is kind of easy. We discussed a bit when we were in Diamond Mountain. So is there a time when feelings as link number 7 do not trigger, does not trigger the initial desire as link number 8?

Explain the circumstance. Does anyone remember?

[Speaker 3]
There are two times.

[Speaker 1]
Hatsa says there's two times. Two times? Yeah.

Two circumstances. Oh, okay. One is when you reach arhat, and the other?

[Speaker 2]
When you're meditating and your mind is in the formless realm.

[Speaker 1]
When you're meditating and your mind is in the formless realm. Arhat is okay, but not the formless realm. I thought it's a pretty good answer.

I don't think so. I don't know. I mean, at least this is what I...

Basically, we're only talking about overcoming the negative emotions. And I don't know. I mean, Master Vasubandhu didn't mention about...

I mean, we are still debating whether meditating on the formless realm will create or will not create this, will trigger or not trigger the next link. So I don't know. It's debatable.

I'm still waiting for the Master to let us know. Unless Geshe-la read ahead and have the answer. Okay.

Okay. Thank you, Hatsa. Now, how do you explain that not all contexts as link number six will lead to feelings as link number seven?

What if you die just after you make contact with the object? That is also very true. Oh yeah, I never thought of that.

Yeah. Hatsa has an opinion. Yeah, Hatsa, please.

[Speaker 3]
The kind of contact that creates feeling is contact infected by misunderstanding.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, the kind of contact that creates feeling is the kind of contact infected by misunderstanding. That's correct. Very correct.

Therefore, when Buddhists make contact with things, they never have feelings.

[Speaker 3]
They never have feelings.

[Speaker 1]
Was it two qualities of sarcasm? Innocence and... Okay, but they are not in the will.

Buddha is not in the will. Yeah, that is a very good answer too. Yeah, well, because they don't have misunderstanding, that's why they are not in the will, right?

We can say that too. Let's see. So, an arhat who overcomes misunderstanding but still has a physical body.

That's true. Okay. So, yeah, they still have physical body.

Do we... So, would we consider them not having misunderstanding anymore although they still have a body in the will, right? I think we can say that.

I think you can say that. Yeah. So, I think the key word here is misunderstanding.

So, I think because of that, then feeling or contact will not trigger feeling anymore. Because feeling has to be rooted in ignorance? Feeling has to be what, Nick?

Rooted in misunderstanding? According to the text, yeah. The link of feeling.

Right. Yeah. All right.

Thank you. Let's move on. What is the state of the mind in the deep cessation meditation, and what do we say that it cannot be virtuous?

Why do we say... If you put a pastry cinnamon roll under the person's nose, they won't smell it. What?

Han has an idea, but they're not doing anything. Haso was saying something?

[Speaker 3]
They've run out of good karma.

[Speaker 1]
They what?

[Speaker 3]
They've run out of good karma.

[Speaker 1]
Han says they ran out of good karma. Yeah, that was the conclusion, right? If it's virtuous, they will not be running out of that.

Yeah, I mean, that was what we arrived at before we ended the session. So basically, we are still in the middle of a discussion without a conclusion yet. But we are saying that without normal thought process, the state of mind cannot be virtuous.

Although I'm still looking forward to the next discussions. Hmm. Okay, now the STW, Sexy West Chinese Word.

Sexy West Chinese Word. Has interesting acronym. So what does it mean?

Anybody remember? Does anyone remember? It's like in Vaibhashika.

Right, make details. Maybe it would like explain the details or something. Differentiate.

Different. Yeah, Geshe-la mentioned that which is like, take this out for describing details. Yeah.

Thank you. And how about Drava Main? This is similar?

This is similar. Yeah, that's right. This is similar.

[Speaker 3]
Pei got long.

[Speaker 1]
Pei. Or example. Or example, yeah, depending.

Longer, but yeah. Yeah, metaphor, example to describe something. Oh, cool.

He tricked us with a long sentence. Yeah, it was an explanation of that metaphor is short. All right, so Geshe-la, this is the attempted translation.

Okay. Let me to read first. Yes, please.

Yeah, by the way, the notes in English after that are just my own notes to myself. So I found this book a long time ago. And I got crazy about a week and made notes to it.

So I didn't take the notes out because I think they might be useful. But they're not the translation. Okay, so I'm going to read the next one.

Yeah, we saw it. Okay, if the mind took on a virtuousness. No, no, sorry.

Sorry, don't keep calling me. Same giving. I'm playing nowadays with this poem.

Poem can mean to not have something. Like, boom, to eliminate. Right?

But I believe this is a very, very ancient text. We have no commentaries. No one's ever tried to teach it.

No one's ever tried to explain it. And the words are very strange and old. I believe this is...

I believe this might be a form of the verb pang. Which means what? Do you guys remember?

Like da pang. To... To launch or shoot?

Yeah, to project. So try that one on. It's like trying on a pair of pants.

You go to the store, try on the pants. They fit, they don't fit. When you're translating, you try a translation on, and if it doesn't fit, you take it off.

But I... Does it work here if you translate pang as project? Would it make sense?

gyeway tsaway tokpa The power of the de tsar, or the basic power of the virtue, okay? hong What? To project something.

Project something into the future. sem gyeway ngor yin na If the nature of the mind was virtuous, okay? Got it?

Okay. Then there could be no gyew, which could doke it. There could be no cause which prevent it or stop it.

If the... They're talking, by the way, they're talking about the state of mind of a person in very deep meditation at the top of the formless realm. So they have got there by being deep into meditation.

Super deep. And it could be that they are born into that realm, okay? Formlessly.

They don't have a physical body. They have prana body, but they don't have a gross physical body. So it's called formless, even though it just means gross formless.

And the question that we're dealing with is what's their state of mind at that point? What's their state of mind of a person who's meditated so deeply that they are born without a body? Can it be virtuous?

We said no already. Because it has to be projected by what? It has to be projected by what?

Great virtue. Extraordinary virtue. Talking about people who were reborn in the formless realm without a suffering body, temporarily.

So geway tsaway top kyi pong te. They are projected by the power of a great root virtue. If their state of mind resulting state of mind is virtue, then they could never be stopped.

It would never stop. Their mind would never stop. And their stay in the highest realm of samsara would never stop.

If the virtuous state of mind in the desire realm could project the virtuous state of mind in the formless realm, then there'd never be any reason for them to leave the formless realm. See what I mean? Cool?

But we know they go to the hell realms. Yeah. It's always the case that people who mistake very deep meditation for nirvana go to the hell realms after their next birth.

Because they use up their good karma. So what he's saying here is the state of mind, resulting state of mind in the formless realm, cannot be virtuous, because it would keep them there. And we know they don't stay there.

Cool? All right. mi gyewa yang kye dak pel wan gyurul Yeah.

Could it be non-virtue that got them there? No, according to this. But they wouldn't be in the formless realm if they hadn't engaged in extraordinarily deep meditations.

Why are extraordinarily deep meditations virtuous? Yeah, you can't think any bad thoughts about anybody, because that would push you out of the meditation. If you're still in that meditation, your state of mind has to be ahimsa, that you're not hating anybody or hurting anybody.

You've got to be spaced out in a pleasant way. Okay? So he says, same problem with non-virtue.

What's that mean? Meaning that they will not... You couldn't say that non-virtue projected them into the formless realm.

And they probably couldn't stay there if it was non-virtuous. They couldn't stay there for hundreds of eons or something, which they do. Okay?

Keep going. All right. Yeah, there's this thing called gopay nyom jung, which means meditation on the cessation.

Okay? Balanced sammapadhi. Balanced meditation.

Balanced between what? Dullness and agitation, yeah. If they're meditating on cessation, what kind of cessation are we talking about?

That's the big question here. What did they stop through this meditation? Yeah.

It's not that they stopped suffering, and it's not that they stopped mental affliction. They stopped thought processes. So that's a tricky word.

Usually gopa is the third of the Arya Truth. The end of suffering. End of the truth of suffering.

The truth of the end of suffering. But when you say gopa meditation, stopping meditation, it just means gross thought processes are stopped. So gopa itself, which is a stopping, that's stopping, gopa, and then gopay nyom jung, the meditation which leads to that stopping.

He's got two here. He says gopay nyom jung, meditation on stopping, like stopping itself, is gyewa. Is virtuous.

Can only be good karma. Ni is not exclusive. What do you say?

What's the opposite of exclusive? Well, yeah, it excludes, yeah, it means only, can only be good karma. Can't be anything else.

The karma of being in a cessation meditation is positive. Which means that those people in the formless realm must be in a virtuous state somehow, but it doesn't last. It doesn't last.

Okay. nyunmongpa chen yin na, nyunmongpa me par jitar nyunmongpa chen yin. Yeah, and by the way, why are we talking about all this?

We're supposed to be talking about the wheel of life. You know, why are we talking about all this stuff? Do you remember?

[Speaker 3]
It's about...

[Speaker 1]
Why are we talking about this? We're supposed to be talking about the wheel of...

[Speaker 3]
The object, or the karma?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Classically, in the twelve links, which one is consciousness? Which number is consciousness?

The monkey entering the womb. Link number three. Yeah, what's the link just before it?

Fresh karma. Yeah, fresh karma. So according to the twelve links, the cause of consciousness is fresh karma.

But then this argument has come up because they say, but that's not always the case. It's the object. It's looking at an object which triggers consciousness.

When you look at a coffee cup, it triggers consciousness. The coffee cup is not fresh karma. It's not samskara.

Okay? So there's an argument. What causes awareness?

Is it the object? Triggers the awareness? Or is it the karma that triggers the awareness?

That's the whole debate here, going on and on and on. Okay? And then he tried...

We're going to examine someone who basically doesn't have any objects, but still has consciousness. Who's that? The person in that highest formless.

That's why we're talking about that guy. That's why we're talking about that guy. They don't have any formal objects, but they have consciousness.

So that would support which view of what causes consciousness? Yeah, the Wheel of Life view, which is our Buddha's view. Yeah, the real cause of seeing a person you don't like isn't the person.

It's your karma. That's the beauty of this debate. Okay?

The real reason you meet someone you don't like has nothing to do with the person. It's your karma. It's your seed.

Your seeds are creating this person. That person's not triggering your disgust. You can't blame the husband in the kitchen for feeling bad.

It's your karma. It's your seeds. It's very profound.

Then he says, well, then in theory you could have awareness with no object. And we say, yeah, that's the formless realm state of meditation. There's no objects there.

There's no physical objects creating. There's no cups in that realm, but people are still aware. That's why we're on this topic.

Okay? It's cool, but it's too long. All right.

Then he says, if it were nyo mong chen, what's it? Involve with... if the state of mind of the being in the formless realm...

Good. If it were... if it were full of negative emotions, if the state of mind of a person in the formless realm was full of negative emotions, since there's no nyo mongpa there, nyo mongpa merpar, means there's no negative emotions in the formless realm.

So how can you say it's messed up? How can you say that? So he's eliminated virtuous, non-virtuous, and he's eliminating negative emotions there.

They're like in the... We had it in the lion's stance. They are in a state similar to anesthesia.

Anesthesia? Yeah. It's like they're...I don't know. If you've ever had an operation, it's kind of cool, because the guy says, we're going to cut you up, and you're like, okay. And then you wake up, and you know, it's like a day later or something, and it's kind of cool. You know?

All right? What did you... I mean, I'm asking, how do you translate this phrase?

If you say he has negative emotions, since there are no negative emotions in that realm, how the hell can you say he has negative emotions? That's all. Okay.

This is why you say it's involved with negativity. Yeah, and it's a difficult sentence. This whole book is extremely difficult.

No one's ever tried it, because there's no way to prove anything. You just have to read hundreds of books and then read this one. Yeah, who could guess that debate?

It's a conversation. If it's negative emotions, it's not negative... If it's negative emotions, there's no negative emotions, so how could it be negative emotions?

And it's a conversation. So if negative emotions means if you say they have negative emotions there. We're trying to decide what's the state of mind in the formless realm.

And if you say it has negative emotions, the answer is they don't have negative emotions, because there are no negative emotions there. Okay? But you've got to read so many sutras that you know they're having a conversation, because there's no indication that it's a conversation.

Okay? All right.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
You still going?

[Speaker 3]
You still going?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, by the way, Sugeng, I got some good news for you. Oh, yeah. I spent...

me and my wife, we went to see my stepmother in hospice in January. And then we took care of her for a week or something, ten days. And then she was disturbed and she was...

she was acting crazy a little bit. And then we went back after a month or two months to take care of her, and she's in a beautiful, beautiful place. Very peaceful place.

And very happy place. And talking about her future life and everything. They had her prayers yesterday.

Fifteen hundred monks went to her prayers yesterday. Anyway, she said, I could give you this. Okay?

Wow. Wow. Thank you so much.

Wow. It's a very beautiful paper. She went to this course.

You know, I explained it 30 years ago. And she said, I could give you this. Okay?

Wow. Thank you. Wow.

Cool. So, I'll give it to Stanley and Xiaoping. They can hold it for you.

Okay? When you return to your palace. Yeah.

Thanks for holding your palace refugees from China, by the way. All right. Okay.

Wait, I saw you had more to say. Didn't you have more? You're back in August.

Did you have more? You don't have more. Yeah, I have more.

Okay, let's try. You want to have somebody else read again? Okay.

Yeah, I see Nguyen Tinh.

[Speaker 3]
Yes. Thank you, Professor Sugam. ...

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[Speaker 1]
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Is it right? ... ...

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[Speaker 3]
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[Speaker 1]
Thank you, that's cool. Very nice, very nice. Let's look at the translation.

How could all that occur without contact? Without contact, yeah, yeah. I missed that there.

Yeah. Where is there no contact? Why is he talking about that?

The being in the formless realm, right? Yeah, in the formless realm there's no contact with physical objects because there aren't any physical objects there to have contact with. Okay?

Yes. So which one of the twelve links represents his contact with the outside world? Seven?

Six. Number six. Six.

What's the picture in the Wheel of Life? I mean, everyone likes it because it's one of the only sexy things in the whole Buddhist literature. There's a guy and a girl making love or something like that, okay?

So it represents contact of the mind with the object, okay? So ... ...

But how could they not have contact? Why are they saying not have contact? What are they talking about?

We're talking about the formless realm. They cannot have contact with outside objects. There's no outside objects to have contact.

Okay? So according to the Wheel of Life itself, they cannot have feelings because that's number seven. Number seven is triggered by contact with the outside world.

You can't have a feeling about an object if you can't contact that object. Okay? That's why we're talking about the formless realm because we're debating how does consciousness occur?

Is it triggered by an object? Or is the object triggered by the consciousness? Is the irritating person in the kitchen triggered by you?

Or are you set off by the person? Because it can't be both. That's why we're having this conversation.

This long conversation. DE DAG KYANG REG PA MED PA If there's no contact, where? In the formless realm.

Outside objects. Physical objects. And CI LTAR GYUR.

How is it possible that they could even have any kind of thoughts? Even spaced out thoughts. How could they have any kind of feelings?

We just went through virtue, non-virtue, neutral. How can they have any kind of consciousness going on if they have no contact with any objects? Sorry.

He made contact with money. Okay. Because DE SKAD DU The books always say that the CHUNG DIN DE SEMS SOR BA'I PHUNG PO One of the five parts of a person.

Okay? I like to translate nowadays DE SKANDHA Parts of a person. The parts of a person which is feeling.

One of the five parts of a person. SOR BA'I PHUNG PO GANG YIN PA One of the five parts of the person which is feeling. And DU BYED KYI PHUNG PO The discrimination.

And the part of the person which is discrimination. So two of the five parts. And DU BYED KYI Other factors.

Mainly, it's easier if you think of it as the other 44 mental functions. Okay? When you subtract which two?

The feeling and the discrimination. And discrimination. All the rest.

And in the Abhidharma system that heap includes some other weird stuff that you don't need to know about. All right? But, for example, the potentials of your karmic seeds are sitting there.

And the energies which keep a spiritual attainment attached to you. Which is a unique Abhidharma idea. The belt.

I call it the belt. Okay. So those three other heaps.

Feeling. Discrimination. We call it the grab bag.

All the other stuff. DU BYED KYI PHUNG PO CHUNG ZAD GANG YIN PA Even the least of those three, which are all basically mental functions, even the least of those, all of them are triggered by the contact. Contact.

Three of the five heaps that make you you are created by contact. So how the hell can you say there's no contact? Buddha said 60% of you comes from contact.

Then how can you say there hasn't been any contact? How can you say the people in the formless realm are still having thoughts without any contact with the outside world when Lord Buddha said 60% of you is created by contact. Got it?

So 60% of them disappears when they get to the formless realm. Why? There's no contact.

Why do you say that? Buddha said three of your five heaps come from contact. Which is all the heaps that have anything to do with your mental functions.

All mental functions according to Lord Buddha are created by contact with some kind of object. Then we're trying to say, no, no, in the formless realm there's no contact. So therefore the Buddha must be right when the Buddha contradicted the Buddha and said you could have a feeling without contact.

Right? Okay, we won't go there. If we are saying that the Buddha said that, then there is no feeling in the formless realm, which is correct, right?

Can I say that? Well, yeah, it is correct. You could say that.

You could probably say that. Okay, but this is still complicated. The gang says, we're trying to prove there's no feeling in the formless realm.

But specifically, we're trying to say there's no feeling that comes from contact. Yeah, okay. But do they have feelings?

They do have feelings. They have neutral feelings, don't they? Neutral.

I don't know. They have good feelings. They're anesthetized.

Supposedly they've transcended. Like when you're in the form realm you still have good feelings, and then by the time you get to the... By the way, you have to talk about the distinction between causal and resulting.

Causal form realm happens in the desire realm. The meditations that get you to the form realm happen in the desire realm. So you still have feelings.

Okay. The result of those meditations of being in the formless realm, maybe you don't have those kind of feelings. Okay?

You're anesthetized. All right. Last one.

I'm just going to read, it's okay.

[Speaker 3]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you so much, Sugeng. What time is it there? Oh, it's not so late.

[Speaker 3]
5.30, yeah, no problem. Perfect time.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Okay. Wow. Amazing.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. We're trying to decide whether the state of mind of a person in the formless realm is virtuous, non-virtuous, or neutral. Okay?

And then he says, if it's lung du ma ten, which means neutral, karmically neutral. Sugeng, what does lung du ma ten mean literally? Oh, lung du ma ten.

Literally. I forgot. Yeah, never clarified.

Never clarified. Yeah, and that became a word for neutral karma. So it's very tricky.

It means Buddha never said this is a good deed, and Buddha never said this is a bad deed, so therefore it's neutral. By the way, he didn't describe every possible deed, so it's not a very good system. But anyway, it's pretty cool.

So lung du ma ten means not clarified, but what it means in practice is neutral karma. Is there any neutral karma going on in this room right now? What's a famous example?

Yeah, the pattern of the stone, or the pattern of the wood. How do you feel about it? Neutral.

You didn't notice it until I mentioned it. You didn't feel good about it, you didn't feel bad about it. That's a sign that it's neutral.

Neutral karma. You do collect neutral karmas all day. Most of your karmas are neutral, unless you're having a really bad day.

So most of your karmic results are neutral, just stuff you don't notice. The sky is blue, you don't think about it. So lung du ma tenpa yin na, if the state of mind of a person in the formless realm is karmically neutral, then lung du ma tenpa...

There are four divisions. There are four typical types of lung du ma tenpa sem, states of mind which are famous as being neutral. And this is a very interesting topic.

There's four states of mind which are famously neutral. They're not good karma, they're not... What are they?

Number one, nam min. Number minpa. Karmic ripening.

Yeah, a karmic... All states of mind which are karmic ripening are neutral. In the Abhidharma.

You got to think about it. They don't have intention. They just happen.

I don't know, you're nice to somebody and then you have a result happen. That's... The happiness that comes two years later after you help somebody, as a karma, it's neutral.

Okay? Yeah, it's almost everything. It's a little difficult position.

It's an Abhidharma position. Let's put it this way. Look at it as a karmic result.

In any object you look at as a karmic result, it's karmically neutral because it's not a state of mind. It's not intention. The table, the house, the sky, the mountains, they're all karmic results.

Therefore, they are not intentions. They are the results of intention. So they're famously karmically neutral.

If you look at something from the point of view of being a karmic result, that thing in the Abhidharma system is neutral, karmically neutral. Okay? First one.

He's going to give four examples. What's chulam? There's a chulam for number 11.

What's that? Yoga? Everyday activities.

Yeah, and they say the state of mind where you're just going through the day is neutral. The state of mind where you're just going through the day. Sorry.

Sorry. Yeah, like regular... When you're driving your car in Singapore, not Arizona, not Vermont, you're just driving.

You're not thinking about anything. You're just trying to get the right turn or left turn. You're not...

It's not in Arizona. Why did I say that, Sugeng? Because you don't have to turn when you're driving in Arizona.

Yeah, the drivers here are so bad you're probably going to be upset. But chulam means just normal state of mind when you're engaged in some activity. In tantra, in diamond way, it's the 11th of the 11 yogas.

Which means what? It means living your everyday life on a special level. Everything you do is special.

All your normal activities are special. You don't meet a normal person all day. No such thing.

All right. Chulam. Soi Ne.

Soi Ne is a special expression. Soi Ne means making something. Like painting, building a house, cooking dinner.

Those states of mind are considered karmically neutral. It's the state of mind in which you undertake a... not particularly creative activity, but you're making something.

It's often associated in the ancient times with your occupation. The state of mind that you're off is considered neutral. To be there.

The state of mind that you have while you're doing accounting or something is called neutral. Occupational state of mind. How's that?

Occupational state of mind. The Soi Ne in classical literature is defined as statuary, painting, music, like that. There is a small section in the Tantric devoted to those.

The study of gemology is one of them. There's a book about it. But that state of mind where you're checking a stone, see if it's real or not, it's neutral.

It's a classical neutral state of mind. Unless you're upset with somebody while you're doing it or something. Okay?

Or you intend to donate the stone after you decide it's a diamond. You see what I mean? What's that?

The emanation. Yeah, now, is it emanation state of mind when you're emanating something? Like, I don't know, you want to scare somebody, you want to keep somebody out of a cafe, you emanate a tiger to stay on the porch, which looks a lot like Dennis's dog.

So is it that state of mind, or are we talking about the state of mind of the being who is emanated, the tiger state of mind? Which one are we talking about? Must be the tiger.

You think?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He said, he repeated the papa. It seems like the emanator, I would think. There's a certain state of mind, not the intention to create an emanation, but the state of mind you need to maintain an emanation is considered karmically neutral.

Like magic state. Magic state, okay. What he says here is, if whose state of mind is karmically neutral?

Who are we talking about? The being in the formless realm. Yeah, someone in the formless realm.

He says, Vasubandhu says, if it's a neutral state of mind, it has to be one of the four classical neutral states of mind. Let's see which one. If you say it's a neutral state of mind to sit there spaced out in the formless realm, which sounds kind of attractive, right?

Sounds like it could be that. Then he says, well then, there's four classical neutral states of mind. Let's investigate which one it could be.

For who? The guy in the formless realm. Sitting in the formless realm as a result, not a cause.

All right. All right, let's go. Let's see the translation.

If you say it's karmically neutral to have four different states of mind. Okay, good. Those are coming from a karmic...

Good. Good. Yeah, good.

Good translation. Okay, thank you. That's all I have, Geshe-la.

Please take the plane. Yeah, I'll take the plane for the time that we have left. And then, in 15 minutes, Sri Sugeng will lead a conversation about how the heck can you use this in your everyday life, which is when I bail out.

Because I have no idea how you're going to use this in your everyday life. No, I'm just kidding. Okay.

Well, I got to go back to another place. Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay.

By the way, it's time for me to show off Seiji's new book. So Seiji worked for seven years on Lojong, which is called The Crown of Knives. And he finished it.

And there's actually a very interesting essay at the beginning of the book, which is itself a hundred and something pages, about the history of Lojong, and where it came from, and all the different kinds of Lojong, and all that. So his book got fat, and it's 850 pages. It's done.

We bound a special copy, hand-bounded. Rosa found somebody in Phoenix. We're going to hand-bound three or four copies.

One copy, Nick, is for our main sponsor of our translation. We'd like to thank that sponsor again. And this book will be going to Singapore this afternoon, to that person.

So here's the book. Okay. Can you take out the screen share?

Say again? Turn off screen share. Oh, sorry.

Okay. Okay. And it's very beautiful.

And it's fat. It's two volumes. Here's the second volume.

Okay. So that's the second volume of Seiji's book. And it looks like that.

There's the Lojong poetry, Crown of Knives, and then the commentary for each section. And it's a beautiful book. It's a beautiful piece of work.

Rosa got it already. Anatole did some great work on it, and our whole team, editing team, did a great job. So that book will be available probably in two volumes, I'm guessing, which makes about 13 or 14 volumes that we have finished.

So if the sponsor is listening, we're working hard. And this one took a lot of work. By the way, I was able to work on this more than usual because I'm doing the Good Night Book Club.

So it's been five months, I think. I was planning to most of this year to edit this book. But it only took me three months or something because I can start work at 6 a.m. for the first time in my life, really, because I'm keeping the Good Night Book Club. So Rob takes away my computer at 10 p.m., and my phone, or I put it in my valise. And then I read an inspiring book sent to me by Lindsay, which happens to be Word's book right now. And then I wake up every morning.

This morning I wake up at 5.59, 5.58. Every morning I wake up at the same time, exactly on time. My mind is fresh, clean. I didn't look at garbage the night before.

And it's really, really... That's the next one? I just want to put in an advertisement for that book club.

The reason we can do an 850-page book and finish it in a few months is that we sleep well, and we don't look at garbage stuff in the nighttime. Okay? Or we put the garbage stuff off at 10 o'clock.

And I got to say, for me, it's been a miracle. It's just been a miracle. I really encourage you guys to join the Good Night Book Club.

Here's the new book for the Good Night Book Club people. Which one? Both?

This is the new book for the Good Night Book Club. It's called All the Kinds of Karma. We finished this book before, but this is a special edition for the Good Night Book Club.

If you... Be there or be square. I don't know.

I have to say, for me, it's been a miracle. I wish I had done it 50 years ago. But you guys can start early.

Okay? If you don't do it, you're kind of a koopa. Okay.

All right. Let's go back to Vasubandhu. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. Who's going to read again?

Is your microphone on again? Oh, sorry. I forgot.

Okay. I'm sorry. Okay.

From which one?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. Nice. First of the four options for a neutral state of mind is that it's a state of mind which is occurring as a karmic result.

And this, again, this is Abhidharma. Because, you know, generally you would think everything is a karmic result. But a state of mind which is occurring because of something good or bad that you did is itself neutral.

In the Abhidharma system, if the state of mind that occurs karmically from a good deed, if that were a good deed, then you would never have a bad state of mind. Got it? So in the Abhidharma system, looked at as a result, the result of a state of mind that you get because you did something kind yesterday is itself always neutral.

So he says it would be mirik to say that the state of mind in the formless realm came from a ripening of karma. Mirik means what again? Illogical, incorrect?

Yeah, incorrect. It would be illogical. De.

Here's the reason. Colon. De is a colon.

The next sentence is going to be the reason. Reason why. The reason why the state of mind of a person in the formless realm, deep in resultant meditation in the formless realm, cannot be a good karma.

Why it cannot be a good karma. By the way, they always go to the hell realms afterwards. Anyway, you can't say it's good.

It's illogical. But let's see what he says. Who's going to read?

Goto, please continue. Okay. I like your haircut, Goto.

Thank you. You look like Genglong son. Okay.

I don't know who you're referring to.

[Speaker 3]
Wolf Warrior. Oh, okay. Chupe nampa minpe Chupe nampa Sorry?

[Speaker 1]
Chupe nampa minpe sen ni shiba se mo san gi juk tokpa yenpa mi rikte Nice. Okay, good. Nice reading.

What's operating in the desire realm. Okay, state of mind operating in the desire realm. And that state of mind is itself a nambar mimba.

It's a karmic ripening? Yeah, a state of mind which is operating in the desire realm, but which is itself a karmic ripening, okay, could never happen juk tok. Juk tok means immediately subsequent to, just after something, okay.

Juk tok means just after. In Yiddish, juk means roach. They used to call me juk in the diamond business.

Hey, juk! Anyway, juk tok means just after, okay, just after sipet semo. What's that?

Sitsay. The formless realm? The highest formless realm?

Yeah, it's the top of the four levels of the formless realm. It's the top of samsara, okay. You're super formless.

You're deep, deep in your own thoughts, okay. It's called the peak of samsara. Sipet semo, okay.

Juk tok means just after that. Mirek, okay. It's incorrect, improper to say that a desire realm state of mind, of walking around in the desire realm, could immediately follow a state of mind at the top of samsara.

But it does, right? I mean, you drop to the hell. Oh yeah.

That's a desire realm. Okay, but let's see why Vasubandhu says that, okay. Next one.

Venerable Kadri? I can try, thank you. Yes, please.

Okay, let's try. sang ngok ma shen dun gyi bar du chepay choro. Nice.

Choro. I like choro also. Yeah.

What's the dun, Sugeng? Seven. Yeah, I lost you.

Hang on a second. I got a technical problem here. Okay, yeah.

Can you hear me okay? Sugeng, say something. Yes, can you hear me?

I can hear you. I hear you, Sugeng. I'm not sure.

I lost you, Keshela. Okay. Now we got you.

Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. All right.

The lower levels. How many? Seven.

They are par che. What's par che? What's par che melam?

No option. Yeah, there's the path. Uninterrupted path.

It's the direct perception of emptiness is called par che melam. So par che means interrupted by. Okay.

It's a way to insult people. My teacher used to call me par che. You're just an impediment.

Anyway, he had many names for me. But what he's saying, Sugeng, is why is he talking about seven different sa levels? He's talking about all those are interrupting from the formless to the to the disara.

Good. What separates the highest realm of samsara from our realm? Seven other levels.

It's actually six. But he's counting the disara realm. So they are seven realms apart.

They are seven levels apart. Four for the form realm, three for the formless realm. Actually, it is seven.

Four form realm levels, three formless realms separate the fourth formless disara realm. So he says, look, go directly from one to the other because they're separated by so many levels. It would be difficult to jump from the state of mind where you're irritated in traffic to the deepest state of meditation.

There's too many levels between, to that you have to go up. Okay. All right.

I think we got one more minute. Let's read. Who's going to read this one, Sugeng?

Let me see. Maybe, I saw Oscar Leone.

[Speaker 3]
Oscar.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, now Sugeng, he's not talking about an immediately subsequent state of mind after the state of mind in the highest level of the formless realm, okay? He's saying, I'm not talking about the next thing you think about. Can you think about the form, can you think about the disara realm the instant after you're in the formless realm, fourth level?

Maybe you can. Maybe karma can push you down a bit. But when we're talking about a karmic ripening of a state of mind at the fourth formless realm level, okay?

If that state of mind has ripened in the fourth level of the formless realm, it could never be the state of mind that you have as you are kepa in the dukkham. You are born into it. Yeah.

Therefore, like the idea that it's neutral, the state of mind in the highest part of samsara is neutral because it's a ripening. Because it would have to be a ripening into the desire realm or something like that, okay? And it would have to be karmically neutral.

It's too far separated. The two levels are too far apart. So what he's basically saying is, I don't accept that the state of mind of a person in the highest formless realm is neutral for any of the four reasons.

What was the first reason? It's a karmic result. He says, no, I don't think so.

They're too far separated from each other, okay? That's all. He's eliminating one of the four possibilities of it being a neutral state.

Let's finish this last sentence again. You want to read? Yeah, the state of mind that ripens in the formless realm is always considered a karmic result of...

There's three karmas. Good karma, bad karma, and unshifting karma. Okay?

Good karma, bad karma, and unshifting karma. Unshifting karma, in this context, when you say three kinds of karma, bad karma, good karma, unshifting karma, bad karma means karma to stay in the desire realm. Good karma means karma to have a good experience in the desire realm.

And then karma to be experienced in one of the two higher realms, former formless realm, is called unshifting. It's actually a good karma. But when you divide karma into three, it's called unshifting because, supposedly, it's so powerful that it cannot shift.

What's a shifted karma in the desire realm? What's the classic example? Chapter.

What's the classic example? You're born as a dog, but there's no more dog bodies, so you're born as a rabbit or something? You collect karma to be born as a dog, but it's not the season for dogs to mate in the next seven weeks.

You got seven weeks to get out of this bardo, right? And then it's not the season that dogs mate. Therefore, you'd be born as a rabbit or something.

That's a very Abhidharma idea. Very Abhidharma. That's called shifting karma.

The karma can shift if the world doesn't fit the karma, but that's a crazy idea. In the Middle Way, the world has to adjust to your karma. A dog will be born miraculously.

Okay, got it? But in the Abhidharma system, since things are coming from the outside, not from you, then if it's not the season for dogs to have babies, then you have to shift. Your karma has to shift to another rebirth, maybe as a mouse or something.

Okay, like that. So then unshifting karma means formless realm and formless realm. Okay?

And he says here it would be incorrect to say that unshifting karma, which is the one that gets you to the formless realm, could ever ripen in the desire realm. Can't say. Therefore, when I say neutral state of mind, I'm not talking about a karmic ripening state of mind following the formless realm.

Cannot be. Okay. Yes.

So Geshe-la, we always tell people that when the good karma has depleted in the formless realm, the being will fall into the hell. So can we say that according to Abhidharma it will not happen because of the nature of the unshifting karma? Or the karma that drops you out of the formless realm cannot be described as unshifting karma.

Unshifting karma means upward elevator karma. I see. Oh, that means we have depleted, or the person has depleted the unshifting karma, and that's why they have to fall to the hell realm.

Yeah. Okay. So the karma that ripens in the desire realm cannot be unshifting karma, because all ripenings of unshifting karma are in the fire two realms.

That's the meaning of it. So this argument here does not really hold, right? Because if we are, I mean, we can only say that when the unshifting karma is gone, then there is no more problem here, right?

Basically it is... Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

That's true. You can't say that unshifted karma ripens in the desire realm, but you could say that the unshifting karma ran out, and then the old kind of karma came back, and they got ripened in the desire realm. Okay?

Okay. So I would like to say that the master's logic here is also not holding, right? Why?

I don't understand. Because he's saying that it is impossible for the being in the formless realm to move to the desire realm. He's using...

Sorry? Due to unshifting karma. Due to unshifting karma.

So if let's say the unshifting karma... Due to bad karma he can go to the desire realm, but not due to unshifting karma. Okay.

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Got it. Old bad karma. Because they didn't make new bad karma in the formless realm, but they had a lot of old bad karma.

Okay. Then, by the way, the next section is very sexy, because they get into the free will question. They get into some free will questions, which are not that common in Buddhist scripture.

So it's kind of interesting. And Master Tsongkapa is going to translate the next three paragraphs. Okay?

Okay. Okay. Sure.

Okay. Thank you, Geshe-la. Okay.

I'm going to disappear, and you're going to lead a conversation just before the very interesting peach tree will move. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you, Geshe-la. Thank you. Great.

All right. So we have interesting discussion today. Or at least it is interesting for me.

I hope it's also interesting for you. So anybody has any idea or any comments?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I know.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, Rob, you want to say something?

[Speaker 3]
Stop the sharing.

[Speaker 1]
So again, I have some things. Yes, please. Yes, please.

Please, Stanley.

[Speaker 3]
I'd like to talk a little bit about this four neutral state of mind.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, cool. So it's interesting. So first of all, it divides all kinds of state of mind in the desire into four.

Desire mind has four, virtuous, non-virtuous, neutral, but obstructs you, and neutral that doesn't obstruct. And this four only belongs to the last kind. The last kind as an emanator?

Is that? So virtuous, non-virtuous, neutral, but doesn't obstruct, and neutral that does obstruct. Oh, let's say neutral that does obstruct is number three, and neutral that doesn't obstruct.

And remember, these all four are only in desire. I see. So there are other neutral state of mind in higher two realms.

Oh, okay. So this four only talks about the neutral state of mind that doesn't obstruct in desire.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I think that would make the debate more logical because this four is not in other realms anyway. I see. Not in the higher realm, when people are meditating happily.

So are you saying that Master Vasubandhu is not using the right arguments to argue that beings in the formless realm cannot be having a clinically neutral mental state? Because you are saying the opposite. Huh?

I'm saying this is the perfect example. Oh, okay. Because there are other kinds of neutral state of mind in the higher realms, but not this four.

This four is only limited to desire realm. So, yeah. Oh, okay.

And Master Vasubandhu presented this four on purpose to show that the kind of clinically neutral state of mind in the formless realm cannot be this four, right? Exactly. Yes.

So he was heading into somewhere which is still hidden now, that he is heading into somewhere that he has not presented yet, right? This is what you're saying. There are 12 state of mind in total in Abhidhamma.

Four in desire realm, three in form realm and three in formless realm.

[Speaker 3]
And there are one neutral state of mind in form realm and one neutral state of mind in formless. So they are all different.

[Speaker 1]
But also in Abhidhamma, the neutral state of mind which comes from karmic results, they only refer to the 12 doors of senses somehow. It's strange. Yeah.

So it doesn't include all the karmic ripening. It does not include all the karmic ripening somehow. Yeah.

That's what I got so far. Just for more cooking in the future. Thank you.

Can you send me that part? Yes, but it's in Chinese. Okay.

Send to me. Was it the one that you sent me earlier?

[Speaker 3]
No, no. It's good. It's good stuff.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Please send me. I have a feeling that this settling is going to be very long.

Yeah. Okay. But it's cool.

It's interesting. I get more appreciation of the mind only in Abhidhamma now. All right.

We have two more minutes. Anybody else has any more, any opinions to, to, oh yes. Priest Morga.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah. I'm Alex Rivas.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, Alex. Yeah. No wonder.

I don't recognize you. Priest Morga. Who is that?

Priest Morga. Okay. Hey, thank you for this class again.

It was great. Um, I wanted to say that this teaching was really great for me today because when you were speaking about neutral karma and Geshe-la said that the sky, like the blue sky is neutral. I looked at my sky and it, today's like gray.

It's not like a beautiful sky. And I thought like, oh my, my seeds about the sky are not neutral. They are like bad.

And then I thought, no, but they can be like super beautiful. They can be, because I'm watching the sky. It can be like a miracle that I can watch the sky.

And then I said, would you can change everything that it's neutral to miracle. Like today's my mom's birthday and you can go to the birthday and drive and be very like in the traffic stop there. Or you can just play some music and have fun and see that, that you can take flowers to your mom.

And it's a miracle. It's not neutral. It's like you can turn everything into a miracle.

And that struck me today. And thank you. Thank you for being here.

Everyone. Thank you. Happy birthday, Alex's mom.

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

So yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Alex, for the contribution.

And yeah, I've been thinking a lot about this neutral karma. And if you have been following the wheel of life for a while, I think there are a lot of situations where we, the texts tell us that those are neutral karma and it's kind of disturbing, you know, but I think that's where, that's when we really have to chew on what we are learning. And I believe there will be, there is much deeper nuances that we need to dig and contemplate.

So I think, yeah, that's interesting. All right. My time is up.

And who is the, who is going to present the Pitcher World News? Will that be Juan Hasso or Daniel?

[Speaker 3]
Thank you, Sugeng.

[Speaker 1]
How's it going? When are you coming back? Oh, he left.

He escaped before they answer. Okay. I'm here.

Okay. I'm saying, okay. Okay.

Hopefully we see then. See you then. So yeah.

Thank you. Thank you very much. And today what's happening today?

Okay. First. Yes.

[Speaker 3]
As you hear from Geshe Michael himself, we have this very cool project.

[Speaker 1]
The Good Night Bug Club. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, this nightclub where you go, it happens in your bed every night. You just lay down, have a great time reading books. And now there is the Valise who is like a great tool to put your electronics there and ideally lock them the whole night.

You don't use them. We really want to encourage you to sign up. Come on.

We have been, we have been asking you to sign up. What needs to happen for you to just sign up? Just sign up.

Today is a good day. Just do it. I signed up.

Come on. I did it in front of the camera. I have my Valise.

Yeah. Well, I haven't put my computer in the Valise, but I have the Valise.

[Speaker 3]
So maybe it will be fun. If you, if you record yourself putting your things in the Valise, I don't know how you're going to do that. You cannot record yourself because you put it.

[Speaker 1]
But anyways, send us the video and we're going to make cool material to share with you how the community is following this amazing game.

[Speaker 3]
I like to think it as a game. So there is a QR code. You can register.

Next picture, please. You can also follow these QR codes. Depends on the region you're at.

And next one, please.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay.

[Speaker 1]
I thought there was another video, but okay. Let's jump to this. Just sign up for the reading club, please.

And okay. Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
As you know, this last week, you may know the series on exclusive pre-recorded materials with Geshe Michael on the Angel Debates the Devil start happening last Wednesday.

[Speaker 1]
There are going to be two more sessions, June the 11th and July the 6th. You can register for that QR code. And those are in preparation for the upcoming retreat.

[Speaker 3]
But just before we move on, I would like to invite really quickly for two minutes to our dear friend and great organizer, Tim Lowenhaupt to explain to us a little bit on what's the deal with this. What's the deal with this for?

[Speaker 1]
You know, let me tell you really quickly what happened to me. I'm very interesting to this, right? I'm very interested.

So I sang up for it. And then I realized he said 6 a.m. So it was like, no, 6 a.m. Come on. I just finished a big production.

I know, but I just finished big production one day ago. And then next day I wake up and I like, OK, now I'm rested. I want to watch them.

And I couldn't find them. So is there a way, let's say I miss the 6 a.m., but I want to watch it. So or what's working?

Tell us a little bit. What can people like me, you know, not very sometimes when problems happen, it's not nice to point them out on camera one.

[Speaker 2]
My own problems.

[Speaker 1]
No, but the main point of this is we're giving we're giving everyone an opportunity to catch up on what the angel devil text is like. And the coolest thing about these three classes is that if you come to the class and we can send the links for people who missed it, don't worry, is that if you we want you to create video. So similar to how we do in these classes and in those 15 minutes, we try to figure out how to apply the text to our life.

Like, what's how do you apply it? We're asking everyone to submit one minute videos, and then we're going to pick the best video.

[Speaker 2]
And the winner of the best video is going to get an all expenses paid trip to Mexico City.

[Speaker 1]
Wow. Now I'm interested. One time I make a computer out of one of the concerts you organized.

It was great. You've actually won. Yeah, you won.

And that was a party pill, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great because with that computer, then finally I was able to start working.

Yeah. Well, that's cool. But yes.

So this event, it's a yes. And we'll give it we'll give people a short row as well. That's amazing.

So it's a really cool.

[Speaker 3]
It's a really great opportunity to get involved with the organization.

[Speaker 1]
And then how does the angel debate the devil ideas? How do they apply to your life? OK, so.

So if you come to the second one or you can sign up online here, which Gina can show you now, we show the screen, please.

[Speaker 3]
With the QR code, we will.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. No, the pre-course, please. I think.

OK, that one. Yeah. So if you sign up here, you can get all the information.

And then if you do submit these one minute videos, we will watch all of them. And then we will announce on July 5th who gets that all expenses paid up to two thousand dollar flight. We're not spending more than that, meaning no first class.

OK, one one question again, again, to have it clear what the video has to be about. One minute video on you. What am I supposed to say?

Well, you you you you you watch the class and then how does that how does that apply to your life? Oh, OK. OK.

Like daily daily life tools or exactly.

[Speaker 2]
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

[Speaker 1]
OK, cool. Yeah. Amazing.

When I was when I still have hair. Yeah. And I used.

Yeah. So so we're really excited about this. We're hoping that all of you will participate.

And also we're looking forward to seeing who the special winner will be as well.

[Speaker 3]
Amazing. I'm curious, too. Let's see.

But first we have to watch the classes. I have to watch the one that I missed.

[Speaker 1]
Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much. That's great to know. And you look great today, by the way.

Thank you. So you can stay here if you want. Well, I keep sharing the news and then we have a very also special talk with a person.

This is a surprise. OK, let's keep going really quick to call to our next guest.

[Speaker 3]
OK, so you are ready. Look at that. Mexico is going to be having the angels of the devil with Geshe Michael Roach, July 26 to 28.

After this series that Tim just presented, you're going to be very ready to attend this program. Next one, please.

[Speaker 1]
And next, I think it's Wednesday, May 21st or Tuesday. No, it's going to be it's going to be. Yeah, Wednesday.

You can sign up for the queue for the Q&A that it's going to happen. It's Tuesday. Oh, my apologies.

It's Tuesday and it's free and you can come. What time? 2024?

No, I mean, what time? What time? We'll find out.

Sign up and you will find out. Ah, next one, please.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, DSEU also is going to start having some sessions very soon. This QR code is just going to take you to the website, but I'm just letting you know it's a great event. DSEU is going to have some full events and programs happening in Sedona.

And great. Congratulations.

[Speaker 1]
Great achievements. A lot of students are coming to the first time here to Sedona.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's very beautiful. Wonderful. Yeah, it's very amazing.

So congratulations to the university.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you for all you're doing. And some of the program directors have been here for a couple of days already, who we met last week. Sonia and Edmont.

Okay. Oh, and Amy and Dinara. Oh, okay.

We shall interview you very soon. Yeah. Okay, next one, please.

Yeah, just for you to know that YSI is organizing this event weekly with Benji and with Errol.

[Speaker 3]
Next one, please. You can follow the QR code if you are interested in that. And then in June, there is going to be a program based on the experiences Geshe-la and other retreatants have during their three-year retreat.

You can sign up for that there following the QR code. And then in November, YSI is organizing the last chapter of the Jata Yoga Pradipika, November 14th to the 25th.

[Speaker 1]
It's going to be fun, I think, I hope. We'll see. It depends on my seats.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Who are we interviewing today, Juan? What's that? Who are we interviewing today?

[Speaker 3]
Today, we're interviewing Rob Haggerty, because he's in a very, very cool project. I think it's very important what you're doing. Many people complain.

[Speaker 1]
Many people say things. They kick and fight. But here is our hero who keeps everything under control.

Some people even, how to say, refer to you as, what's the name, Tim? Chief on Operations? Chief of Staff.

Chief of Staff. What do you think about that?

[Speaker 2]
Thanks, I know. No, no, no. What we're talking about today is, we have been getting some emails that you are right now working on the new schedule for year 2025, Geshe Michael's schedule.

And I've seen you through the months that I've been here lately, how much you're working on it and how wonderful progress you're doing.

[Speaker 1]
I have heard Geshe Michael say that he's very, very grateful. You're doing a great job. And I'm very happy to hear that.

[Speaker 2]
So can you tell me a little bit about how's that process going?

[Speaker 3]
And maybe what are the general advices for the organizations if they want to book some time with Geshe Michael for 2025?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that's a big question. Yeah, so right now, we've sent out an email to, there's 42 organizations, I believe. So we've sent out an email to all the organizations that they submit their 2025 requests.

So really, I mean, anybody could sort of, you know, in our organizations can, like yourself, should reach out, write me an email, you're hoping for 2025. Okay. Basically, so that's the main thing.

And so I think the big difference for 2025 is that we'll be scaling back Geshe's time about 12%, his particular time, because I just did, you know, as I was thinking about this with my mom, as I was with my mom, like her last like 10 years, you know, and I'm seeing my own as I'm getting older, you know, there's more things like doctor's appointments and rest and taking care of ourselves. And so these sort of become just sort of normal parts of our life. So in order to do that, we have to sort of balance out our lives essentially.

So this is sort of about trying to create a little bit of space for Geshe Michael so that he can sort of prioritize, I think what he feels is like most important, really for the students, and then for the future of all the organizations. So really, it's not just 2025, we're looking forward to, you know, like the next 25 years. And so everything sort of compacts when we do a schedule.

Okay, for example, like when all of your time is taken up, if I, for some reason, if I get interrupted for five minutes, that somewhere has to be taken from someplace. So my job is to basically try to find space in his day. And sort of like navigate that in a sort of, you have to sort of be a little bit of like a politician, I think.

I always say, shaking hands and kissing hands and kissing babies. Oh, yeah, I hear that. Yeah, because you're balancing, like 42 organizations and stuff like that.

So it's not just one, it's not sort of just like your program. It's sort of like there's all of these other programs.

[Speaker 3]
So yeah, so what will be your general advice for the organizations and the directors of the organizations on what to put into consideration when they request time with Geshe Michael?

[Speaker 1]
And also, I don't know how to harmoniously between organizations find the right spots to don't overcome each other?

[Speaker 2]
Or what about this thing, like you were telling me sometime, I think, we talked about it. Respect translation classes. Don't book the translation classes.

Yeah. So yeah, just general advices. What do you have in mind?

You know, actually, Tim does a really good job at this. I think it's the keyword is like collaboration, and sort of finding ways that each organization can sort of like, work with other organizations and collaborate. And I think if we could come together and create maybe like co-teaching experiences or things like that, because we had to find creative ways for the schedule, which is literally just, could you just grab it actually?

Geshe Michael's schedule? Because Me? Not you.

We were having a meeting yesterday and Geshe asked somebody if they could find a minute, an hour. So that's sort of What does the black line mean? That day is over.

So it's deeply satisfying. Sometimes, and you can see there's notes everywhere. And, you know, and this is just his.

Yeah, then there's like my schedule, which has a whole other set of notes as well. So I think collaboration is a really great key, basically, I think, considering like, I had to do this with my old boss, like whenever I had one on one with him, I was at like, maybe like five points I wanted to get to. But prioritizing is was always like, at the top of my mind, because he didn't have a lot of time either.

And so I always was willing to walk away with in my brain, like, at least if I can't get five, what's one thing I can ask today, I see that's the most important. So I think prioritizing what you feel is going to help the most amount of people. And then also, you know, what is the most important thing that you could go ask?

It's not just Geshe-la, but it's probably the people in your life, you know, like when you go to them, how can you not necessarily waste your time? But how can you get the most out of what I'm about to ask you? Yeah.

So being kind. Okay. The biggest thing though.

And then there are other things we will keep talking about it.

[Speaker 1]
But I hear, for example, now the idea is that Geshe-la only teaches two hours a day. And don't overbook him or something like that. You have said that.

I don't know. Maybe you just say that to me, right?

[Speaker 3]
But there are like a few things that are important once we are about to come up with a plan on requesting time. Don't book translation classes.

[Speaker 2]
Be respectful with other organizations time and plans. Ideally only two hours a day, something like that. What else?

I'll just make it quick since I know we have a class. So Geshe-la uses the time basically when he starts the, when he does a good night book club. So he goes to sleep at 10 and then wakes up at 6am.

And so he starts working at 6am. So basically from six to 11, which he has that uninterrupted time, he's using that to translate essentially. So that's why we're getting these books out.

So that's the number one. And so he also, like everyone else, we all need like the rest and time and exercise in the afternoon. So we generally stick to two classes at an hour and 15 minutes each.

And ideally a half hour break in between. So that's sort of like where we want to sort of be. Any extra time sort of is, there is no extra time, but it doesn't mean you can't ask.

We can always try to find a solution because he always wants to say yes to all of it. And then I want to say no. But it's not, it's not because I don't want to help you or help you get what you need.

I think we're just, we're just trying to all do what I think is the most important for everybody. I think. Wonderful.

Wonderful.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you so much, Rob. We have another class coming up.

[Speaker 2]
I think now we are moving to the next class. So, but thank you very much for all the work you're doing.

[Speaker 3]
We will talk soon more about this with you.

[Speaker 1]
And yeah, I think ideally something more things to mention, not like ideally let Geshe-la work from six to 11, some more details, but we'll talk about it later.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you so much.

[Speaker 1]
See you later.