Сугэн Ши — Книга 2: Колесо жизни (первый принцип и подразделения зависимости), занятие 51

[Speaker 2]
You can hear my voice now? Yes. Good morning, Sudham.

Did you have a good night's sleep?

[Speaker 1]
I had very good night's sleep the whole two weeks. I have been standing the whole day. We are doing some teaching in Indonesia now.

Oh, nice. Yeah, so I just realized that I've been standing the whole day. So at night when I lie down, I will just snore.

And my neighbor will complain, hi, you are snoring again. Your neighbor? My best neighbor.

Oh, your neighbor is Indian. Indian, yeah. Oh, gosh.

But it's fun to be back in Indonesia. You know, all these people are so hungry. So thirsty, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
So feed them.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I'm feeding them.

[Speaker 2]
That's right.

[Speaker 1]
Like how you fed us. Well, I hope the noodles are better. How are you?

Okay. So gang, I can't shut up these guys. I don't know.

I think I should just display my homework and everyone will be quiet. They talk too loud and they don't bring the food. I don't know what's going on.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so gang, it's your show. All right, I will try to shut up everyone by showing my homework. Just joking.

Today's homework is kind of easy. Let me record to the computer and I can start now. Okay, so let's start.

This is easy, right? So what could possibly shift where the karma is supposed to ripen? Hasa says a special wish.

Special wish? Anybody else?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Motivation. Motivation, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, that's all motivation, both positive and negative. So it doesn't have to be special. At least this is what I learned.

Okay. All right, Geshe-la. That's okay.

You're good. Okay. A moon lam.

All right. Say again?

[Speaker 3]
A moon lam.

[Speaker 1]
Moon lam, yeah. Moon lam. Prayers and motivations.

Thank you. All right, the next one. What level of realm is considered to be unshifting?

Fourth level of the formless realm or something? Or the whole formless realm? No, not really accurate.

Anybody else? Oh, yeah. Say again, Nick, your first statement.

The fourth level of the formless realm. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Anything above the third level of concentration level. Unshifting. No, this is actually not really correct.

But anyway, I mean, up to this point in the text, this is the conclusion. But I guess, Geshe-la, I think we will refine it even further when we go deeper, right? You said in class that if karma is committed in the form or formless realm, which is supposed to produce a result in the form or formless realm, then that's unshifting.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, today, I think after this, we are going to touch on this. And then we are going to talk about anything above that level.

And then after that, we are going to refine it even further. Like the fourth sub-level of the level four, all the way to the number five or something. But yeah, up to this point, I think as long as you say that it is on the fourth level, I think it should be correct.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I mean, this is kind of, I would say, interesting, because depending on which part of the text you are in, the answer might be slightly different. Sorry for the confusion. Maybe I should channel that to Master Vasubandhu.

All right. So what is the nature of karma which is unshifting? Anybody?

[Speaker 2]
You have to experience the result in the next life. The karma that takes you to the higher realms.

[Speaker 1]
Not really. Well, it is happening at the higher realms, but what is the nature? Doesn't change.

Doesn't change. Yeah, that is the name. I thought Stanley was right.

According to the book, up to this point is that they are neither suffering nor pleasure. Nice. Cool.

According, yeah, up to this point, this is our conclusion.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So Geshe-la, can I say this is also considered lung maten? Well, here's the game, okay? Here's the problem here.

In the ancient, in the Tibetan literature, in the whole Tibetan literature and in the translation we just finished, we went and looked up unshifting, and it said karma committed in the desire realm, which is going to have a result in the former formless realm is unshifting. They said that. But Vasubandhu's presentation is more interesting to me because he says, look, in one sense, there's good karma, sunam, there's bad karma, sunam mayimba, unshifting.

And otherwise you say gewa mi gewa lung maten. You say gewa means virtue, mi gewa means non-virtue, lung maten means karmically neutral, okay? But there's this weird division of when you change the word for virtue and you say merit in sunam, okay?

And you say sunam, merit, sunam mayimba, non-merit, meaning bad deeds, and then you say unshifting is between, you know? And you say, well, why do you say unshifting? And it says because it takes you to one of the higher realms.

And it's not going to shift the way a karma would in the desire realm. Why? Because karma in the desire realm can shift.

Why? Because you're supposed to be born a dog, but dogs aren't mating in that season, you'll be born as a bear. That's Abhidharma.

That's an Abhidharma opinion. It can shift. It can shift to a different birth because there's no dogs being born in that season.

That's not the dog mating month, so you'll have to be born as a bear. That's Abhidharma. It would not be accepted by the other schools.

In the other schools, a whole planet full of dogs would appear if you had to take a dog birth, okay? I mean, karma is that powerful. Now, so think about it, and I finally understood it from Vasubandhu.

When you get to the third and fourth concentration level, you start to lose what? Your concentration is so deep that you go beyond pleasure and pain. You reach a...

It's very, very similar to... I had an operation like seven, eight years ago. They took out my gallbladder.

My wife was standing there holding my hand. They injected me with something, and then when I woke up, I'm in this hospital bed like a day later, and I don't remember anything, nothing. That's the formless realm.

The higher stages of the form realm and the formless realm, the state of mind there is totally buzzed out. It's like you're on heroin or something, and you don't have good feelings, and you don't have bad feelings. So again, appreciate this.

If you could commit karma which took you to a place where you couldn't have pleasure, and you couldn't have pain, and it never shifted from that, then non-shifting, unshifting could be a synonym for neutral karma. Got it? Yeah.

If the definition of good karma is what brings you pleasure, and if the definition of bad karma is what brings you pain, and if something brings you something between, then that could be called neutral karma. And it never shifts. And that means if there's a karma which would take you to the top of the form realm or into any part of the formless realm where you cannot feel good and you cannot feel bad, then that's kind of neutral karma.

And then, Sugeng, they're going to get into this huge discussion. Suppose you have a place where you don't feel anything. Is that a result of a neutral karma?

Do you have to go to the formless realm to experience a neutral karma? Do you have to go there? Could you just experience the pattern on the carpet here, and you don't feel good and you don't feel bad?

Is that a karmic result, to feel nothing about the pattern on the carpet? Did you notice the pattern on the carpet? You said, no, David, no, I didn't notice.

How'd you feel about it? Well, Geshe-la, I didn't notice it. So, did you feel anything about it?

No, I didn't feel anything about it. Is that a karmic result? Yes.

And they're going to question that in the Abhidharma here. There are purposeful neutral feelings, where you want to go to the formless realm and be spaced out. That's different.

That's a karmic result. People could work hard to reach a place where they don't feel pain and they don't feel pleasure. The nurse came in and she said, we've been shooting you up with different painkillers.

Which one do you like? And I said, that last one, that was good. I thought I was floating on a worm pod and I wasn't aware of anything.

I said, I'll take more of that one. So, what I mean is, you could work to get to a high state beyond pleasure and pain, but is that the same kind of karma that you would collect to not notice the carpet detail, and you just don't care about it?

[Speaker 2]
It's an absence, no? Absence versus neutrality.

[Speaker 1]
That's what we're going to go to. I won't put words in. But it's extremely interesting, because I always, it was so curious to say, you can divide all karma into good, bad, and unshifting.

And I'm like, what? Why I can't be a bear? I've got to be a dog.

Why is that neutral? You see what I mean? It doesn't mean anything.

It was very confusing for me. I love Vasubandhu says, neutral means the karma is so special, it shoots you up to this drug where you don't feel good and you don't feel bad. You're just in a cool space.

It's very interesting. So, okay. Yes, sure.

I have one more questions regarding the use of gewa, migewa, and then sunam and sunamayimpa. Do we have, in English, do we have any? No, it's not artificial.

[Speaker 2]
It's just artificial.

[Speaker 1]
No, we don't have it. I support the work... So, basically, they are referring even sunam and sunamayimpa.

Yeah, I mean, in English... Sorry, I mean the sunam and sunamayimpa. Yeah, artificially, they made a decision.

Gewa and migewa is going to be virtual and non-virtual. And then sunam and sunamayimpa is going to be merit and non-merit. In English, there's not much difference.

But just artificially, we decided to stick to that. Because when you divide merit and non-merit, the one between is different than when you divide virtual and non-virtual and neutral. The one in between is different.

This one is unshifted. This one is neutral. You can do good deeds, bad deeds, and neutral deeds.

Over here, you can do good merit, non-merit, and unshifting. And you're like, what? Got it?

It's very difficult. And by the way, then Vassubhanu is going to say, it all ties into why they didn't use the word karma in the second link. Which is, but we use the term fresh karma, right?

No, I'm not sure. Because he says, I don't want to use the word karma for the second link. It's duche.

Duche kile. Well, we say duche kile. We're going to talk about it today.

So, it's a weird karma. Thank you, Geshe-la. It's a weird karma that such a difficult person, stubborn person, gets to have a stubborn translator.

Sorry. She's like, yeah. Okay, let's continue.

So, what is Chiang Rung, guys? Whatever is appropriate. Appropriate, yeah.

Or in our context, it's what any place or whatever is appropriate there. All right, what is? Salt.

Salt. Salt. By the way, by the way, I want to ask a question.

Go back to the... If the V is silent, why can't you just put TSBA? Why do you have to add the length?

Yeah, right. That's the answer. No, but what I'm saying is, visually, if it has a V, you know it means salt.

And visually, you know if it doesn't have the V, it means hot. What about pronunciation? If you want to be clear, why don't we add an extra syllable in front of salt?

Which is len. So, lensar always means salt. Sar can mean salt or hot.

Okay, so len is a clarifier. Okay, next. A person of that concentration level.

Yeah, good. Yeah, somebody in the concentration level, yeah. Or being at a certain level in the form realm, yeah.

It also could mean an emotion at that level. Emotion at that level. Emotion at that level.

An emotion, all right. Okay, so that is the... And then the text that I tried to do is...

Let me copy it here. Okay, so this is my attempt, Geshe-la. Okay, I'm looking.

Okay, starting with Dode. Oh, hold on, sorry. No, samten shipa.

Yeah, okay, good. And he said that Aryans on the fourth concentration level aren't shifty. Samten shipa diya.

Yeah, and what this is kind of getting into is there are sub-levels in the levels. Like in the form realm, there's, I think, 17. There's three, three, three, and eight.

Okay, the first concentration level has three sections. The second concentration level has three sections. The third concentration level has three sections.

The fourth concentration level has eight sections. And only the top three have higher quality bodhisattvas in them. Okay, so...

Can bodhisattvas... Top five. If bodhisattva is in the fourth concentration level, which has eight different sub-levels, and if they shift between one of the sub-levels, are they shifting?

Or do they have to go to another concentration level? Do they have to go from fourth to third to call it shifting? How far do you have to go to shift?

Could you be born as a brown puppy instead of a white puppy? And is that a shift? Okay, instead of a bear.

Okay, and that's a debate here. Okay, so anyway, he's saying within the fourth form realm level, especially, I think, in the top three sub-levels, Aryas don't tend to move between levels. Okay, so they are, in a sense, unshifting.

Okay. How can an Arya take birth in the form realm? Here's stream-enterer.

Here's Arhat, nirvana. What are these two called? Returner and non-returner.

Return to where? So if this guy doesn't return to the desire realm, but he has to take seven more lifetimes, where? It's going to be in the form of the formless realm, by definition.

Okay, and is he shifting? And they say, well, there's only a few sub-levels that can accommodate that are high enough class hotels for Aryas. So if he's shifting between, you know, super duper room and super, super duper in the presidential suite, I don't know if we could call it shifting.

Okay, so that's the question here. Okay. All right, next ones.

Yeah, if that were the case, then feelings in the lower levels, which are neither pleasure nor pain, could not be a karmic ripening. Good. Good.

Okay, and this goes back to... We're going to divide all karmas. We're not going to say virtue, non-virtue, and neutral.

Forget that. DGE BA MI DGE BA LUNG MA BSTAN That's not the division we're talking about. Now we're over here, we're talking about SON NAM, SON NAM MA YIN PA, and unshifting.

Good merit, non-merit, and in the middle, unshifting. Okay. If that's true, and if the unshifting always means neutral karma, if unshifting is just another expression for neutral karma, and you say, why?

Because it projects a birth in a place where you cannot have pleasure. It's such good karma that it's unshifting. It projects you to a place where you can't feel pleasure or pain.

You're beyond it. You're higher than that. Isn't that...

Over here, good karma, bad karma, neutral. Over here, merit, non-merit, and non-shifting. And non-shifting means it's so high, you could never feel pleasure.

It's beyond pleasure. Got it? So if that's true of the fourth form realm level and beyond, that you could create a karma in the middle here, which takes you to a place beyond pleasure and beyond pain, then what about plain old neutral karma in the desire realm?

Where's that? Got it? Guess what, this is...

This is... Gandhi says, if that's the case, I'll say it again. Merit, non-merit, unshifting.

But this unshifting is very high. Higher than pleasure. You're so high in your pleasure, you're beyond pleasure.

Higher form realm and all of the formless realm. Then what's the karmic status of neutral feelings here in our world? What's he say?

What's he say? Not karmic ripening. Yeah.

Neutral feeling could not be a karmic ripening. Our neutral feelings could not be coming from karma. Got it?

So Geshe-la, is this... Is Master Vasubandhu... I know you're going to ask me that.

Come on, I just figured it out. Don't ask me whose opinion it is. No, he's bringing up a possible problem.

I'll say it again. Merit, non-merit, and unshifting karma because it's so sweet. It takes you to a place better than pleasure and pain.

Okay, well then what about all the normal karmas that take you to neutral feelings? You're just sitting around in your house. It's a boring Netflix thing.

I mean, it's not suffering and it's not interesting. It's like somewhere in between. Then all of those boring feelings cannot be created by karma.

Because the only neutral ones are those high neutral ones. Got it? Right?

Merit, non-merit, and unshifting. But unshifting means... Merit gives you pleasure.

Non-merit gives you pain. Unshifting takes you to a higher place beyond pleasure and pain. What happened to normal bored?

Is it not a karma? Is it not a result of karma? That's Vasubandhu's bringing up the question.

What happened to normal bored feelings? We might have the answer in the second paragraph, and that is kind of confusing also for me. It's very confusing, the next paragraph.

It's not confusing, but you shouldn't be translating it. Okay. All right, let's read the second paragraph.

Okay, so let's go slow, and you're going to jump up and down by the time we finish. DO DE means all the sutras. It does not mean the second school here.

Sutra Pitaka, okay? All the sutras. And contradictory.

You're contradicting all the sutras. If you say there's no karma for lower neutral stuff, then you're super contradicting scripture. Why?

DU SHES MED DU SHES MED MIN SKYE MCHED That means a place beyond mind and beyond no mind, which is a high, high... It's up there in those fourth formula level and the formulas level, okay? It's called beyond all mind and no mind.

Beyond having a mind and beyond having no mind. Okay, there's a level up here called that. Okay, DU SHES MED DU SHES MED MIN SKYE MCHED DU NYE BAR SBYOR When you reach that place, when you're reborn there, SEMS CAN NANG GI DBANG DU BYAS NAS Let's talk about those guys, okay?

Let's talk about those guys. They're born in a place where it's so neutral, they don't have a mind, and they don't have a mind, okay? SEMS CAN NI SEMS CAN GA GCIG NI Those beings among them from time to time, you know, all the time, some of them are TSE TSE, misspelled, miscarred.

Thank God you have... TSE TSE means what? No more, the life wears out?

Their life energy wears out. Their LAY SEPA, the karma also wears out. Their SINNAM SEPA, the merits also wears out.

Yeah, neutral stuff wears out. These beings are at a level with no mind, which is the ultimate neutral state, they die. Why?

Why do they die? The karma wore out. That proves that neutral state is created by karma.

Got it? They die from a super neutral state. So don't tell me neutral stuff doesn't have karma.

Got it? It's beautiful. Okay, good luck, Chantze.

I'm glad it's you and not me. By the way, he gives you a clue. He says SINNAM SEPA.

Their good karma wears out. So he's like, got it? Their good karma wears out?

Got it? So don't tell me there's neutral places that are not created by karma. All right.

Thank you, Geshe-la. Please take... We're starting.

Why are you running away, Sige? No, I mean, that's done. Oh, sorry.

I mean, that's done. Wait, I gave you a homework. Three paragraphs, right?

Oh, you want me to teach a class?

[Speaker 3]
Oh, that's good.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, that's the other Vasubandhu. Wait. Yeah, sorry.

We're not going to go to that Vasubandhu. We're going to go to this Vasubandhu. We completed the three paragraphs.

That was fun. I mean, that was really fun. Okay.

Please, let's do somewhere you read and I correct, and then you can pick on somebody else. Okay. Gyurl.

Yeah, some people say... And by the way, when they say, some people say, it usually means they're wrong.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
But it's not like 99% of the time. So he says, some people say they don't die from that neutral state, which would imply they're not running out of karma. They just disappear into Nirvana.

So you don't... Some people, well, they want to get out of this problem. What's the problem?

We just said neutral... There's kinds of neutral karma. There's kinds of neutral states of being that are not created by karma.

Because there's sunam, sunamayamba, and non-shifting. So that leaves a big blank for all the lower neutral stuff. Then that's not a creation of karma.

So we said, well, that can't be right because even people who are super neutral, they die because they used up their karma. And the other guy says, no, they don't die. They disappear into Nirvana.

He's trying to get out of the problem. Cool. They don't die.

They just go into Nirvana. All right. We're not going to those guys.

All right. Sugeng, please read. Samten shipa nani rang gi we yo wa me pe mi yo wa yin par tento.

Yeah, at the fourth concentration level, which has how many sub-levels? Eight. Yeah.

Did I say eight? Yeah, eight. Five and three, I think.

Samten shipa nani rang gi yo wa me pe. Rang gi wa is a very difficult word here, Sugeng. Okay.

Rang gi wa. It's a zhu, zhu. Their own, own, their own zhu, zhu.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Rang gi means its own. Rang gi wa means its own zhu, zhu. Okay.

So, inside the fourth form realm level, you can shift your own zhu, zhu. But can we call it shifting? Like an Arya takes a minor...

An Arya moves between one of those three very high levels. Is it shifting? Can we say they went to a different place?

Okay. Gi yo wa yin par tento. We can call them unshifting, even if they...

We can call Aryas in the fourth concentration level unshifting, because even though they do shift between their three little tiny sub-levels, that's not really a shift. They're still Aryas. They're still on an Arya fourth concentration level.

Okay, got it? Okay, rang gi wa, what do you say? Own zhu, zhu, zhu.

Inside their own level. That's what it says. Okay.

Are they yo wa? Are they shifting? Yes.

Do they shift? Yes. Do they shift outside of their own luxury hotels?

No. No, that's all. Their own, their own, their own fancy level.

Okay, that's what RANG GI WA means here. Do they shift? Yes.

Do they shift out of Arya Luxury Hotel, top three parts of the fourth concentration level? No. They still stay in one of those hotels.

One of their own hotels. Okay, so do they shift a lot? We call them unshifting, because they're just shifting between one of their own luxury hotels.

Got it? Okay. So generally speaking, inside their own level, they're shifting.

All right, keep going. All right. Sometimes, SHAN DAG KYANG MI YOD PA MED PA NI MA YIN TE ZHA OG MED YOD PA MED PA'I PHYIR RO Yeah, SANTEN SHAN DAG KYANG.

The other three concentration levels, or three and a half, it's not that they can't be unshifting. They're still shifting. I want negative, okay?

Sorry. It's not that they are without not shifting. They can also be unshifting.

It's not that they don't have unshifting. It's not that they don't have unshifting. MA YIN MED MI Three negatives here.

It's not that they don't have not shifting, which means they do have shifting. Not shifting, sorry. That they don't have not shifting, which means they have not shifting.

Well, what do you mean? You just said only these high people are not shifting. And he says, no.

I mean, you can get stuck in the desire realm for a while, and you're not shifting. Do you shift inside? RANG KYI BA Yeah, animal, fish, bug, but generally, you're not shifting realms.

So you can have an unshifting period in any of the realms. And we could call it unshifting, but it's not a real unshifting in the same sense. And by the way, although it's unshifting, it's in no way neutral.

I mean, bird, that's a bug, then a fish, then a deer, then a coyote. That's not neutral. MA YIN TE SOGS MED YOD PA MED DE PHYIR RO There's a...

You can have a lack of shifting in the lower realms also, but that's not the same thing. That's not the result of some karma so high that you pass beyond pleasure and pain. Okay, got it?

You okay? Why are you looking at me so much? Okay, go ahead, Segei.

Oh, Nam-myojo. Make somebody else suffer, like your wife. Nah, that's all every day.

Pick somebody else and make them read. In the end. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

That's why it doesn't come to the class.

[Speaker 3]
NAM DANG KYI MYO BA YIN PA CHOD PA RIG TE DE YANG LAG GI NYANG NGAN LAS DE PA SEJAWA SINNOH Okay, I'm going to read this later.

[Speaker 1]
I'm going to make myself a note. It is not me. You're in the vision here.

Okay, great. Okay. NAM DANG KYI MYO BA means, we can say that there are situations in the lower realms where people are not shifting.

They're stuck in the desire realm, for example, for a while. And in different births within the desire realm. But that kind of non-shifting doesn't qualify as the non-shifting that we're talking about here.

Between sunim, not sunim, and unshifting. That's not the same thing. Are they stuck in the desire realm for a while?

Yes. Are they not shifting out of the desire realm for a while? Yes.

Is that non-shifting in the sense of the karma that shoots you beyond pleasure and pain? No. Okay, so NAM DANG here means, it's not the non-shifting we've been talking about.

It's a non-shifting, but it's not the non-shifting we're talking about. Okay. For example, you could say, that guy went beyond pain in his arm.

I just understood it. YAN LAG means arm or limb. Okay?

Limb. Right? Limb of the body.

Okay? And that pain he had in his arm has gone away. Okay?

But the word in Tibetan for, and the word in Sanskrit for he went beyond the pain is, the pain was blown out from his arm. Which is? Nirvana.

Nirvana. The pain was blown out of his arm. Nirvana.

Okay, so he reached nirvana, right? Oh, there's other nirvanas running around. Don't say that.

People cannot shift in the desire realm, but that's not the unshifting we're talking about, beyond pleasure and pain. Okay? And people can have a nirvana in their arm, but that doesn't mean they reached nirvana.

Got it? The pain went out of his arm. Doesn't mean he reached nirvana.

But yeah, he had a nirvana in the pain in his arm. Nirvana means blown out, or the pain left his arm. So don't get all excited, he didn't reach nirvana.

Just because a guy is stuck in a frog, turtle, and fish birth, in the desire realm, he's unshifting, doesn't mean he reached unshifting high levels. Okay, got it? Yes, Shiloh.

So cute. Yes, Shiloh. So he's just saying there's more literal senses of this word use that have nothing to do with what we're talking about, right?

Mm-hmm. In fact, he said it that way as a double negative word. He said it's not that you can't use unshifting in other situations.

Okay, that was a double negative. Got it, thank you. But it doesn't have the same force.

Right. Okay, who are you going to pick on, Saging? Yeah, I'm looking at Elmira Sartin.

Ooh. I've got to get past the corn chips to reach the green. Okay.

Okay, Elmira, you're correcting Saging, I'm eating. No, it's from the poem.

[Speaker 2]
Yes. Yes. Wow, are you a Word student, too?

Amazing. Wow. Yes, I'm not a very good student of Dr. Watt. Okay. Wow.

[Speaker 1]
You're amazing, Word. Yeah, thank you, Elmira. I think Sushumna is going to end up smart also.

Okay. GAL TE DE DAG DE LTA BU YIN NA Okay, if everything we said so far is like that, if everything we said so far is like that, then when we divided karma in two different groups, one was DGE BA, MI DGE BA, LUNG MA BSTAN. One was SON NAM, SON NAM MA YIN PA, and MI DGE BA.

Unshifting. And by the way, there's a third division of karma, which is so well known that you don't even have to ask you. Three types.

Body, speech, and mind. Yeah, body, speech, and mind. So here he says, Okay, now if what I said is correct, then before we described three kinds of karma, LU, NGAG, and YI.

Body, speech, and mental. RE ZHIG Does this division, by the way, which is how the Abhidharma IV chapter opens, right? LAS LAS GCIG DANG LA SOGS KYI LAS NYID SEMS DANG PA'I PHYED DU SEMS PA'I YID KYI LAS NO DE PHYED DU DANG SNGAGS KYI LAS That division into body, speech, and mind, he says, that's the classic division.

Now, you got this new division, SON NAM, SON NAM MA YIN PA, and? Unshifting. Unshifting, okay?

Now, the guy's kind of asking, do they match up? What's your opinion? Good, why?

Lower. Lower karma. Yeah, this set is bigger than this set.

All the things that any being in the universe said, thought, or did is a bigger set of karmas than the karmas that produce happiness, pain, or a high, high place beyond pain and happiness, okay? So this set's bigger than this set, because this set leaves out lower neutral stuff, okay? Boring neutral stuff.

So he says, REG ZHIG, by the way, REG ZHIG means provisionally. He says, if we really look into it for a while, you have to say, you cannot call this a division of karma, in the same way that this is a division of karma, because this division is exhaustive, and this division is not, because there's stuff that this division doesn't cover. Got it?

Because neutral people can die, because their karma wore out. So they must have had karma, but it's not in here. Got it?

Okay. So he says, REG ZHIG ZIN NAM MA YIN PA DANG YOD BA LAS When you do this division, DU BYED DU BYED means factor, or anything which creates another thing. Okay?

Factor. Okay? And karma can be referred to as LAS, karma, or it can be referred to as sanskara.

Okay? The second link of dependent origination is called sanskara. It's not called karma.

Okay? So you can refer to the energies which create the universe as karma, or you can refer to them as doers, which is sanskara. Okay?

Karma means makers. Karma means makers. And then sanskara means put stuff together.

Okay? And they're synonyms. Okay?

The second link is not called karma. It's called sanskara. Right?

It's called factors. And by the way, your third heap, sorry, your fourth heap, is called factors, but don't worry about it. That's a whole different thing.

Okay? So he says, look. Look at this sentence.

At the end of the first line, that division of karma into body, speech, and mind, which he calls le. Karma? Karma.

We don't have this manuscript in Sanskrit. It was lost a thousand years ago. Okay?

And we got to deal with the Tibetan translation. And that guy was... Who knows?

Okay. So, le, karma can be divided into body, speech, and mind. Now down here he says, duje, can be divided into merit, non-merit, and unshifting.

But he changed the word now. He didn't say le. He changed it to the other word for karma, which is factor, or seed.

What do you call it? Fresh seed. Freshly planted seed.

Sanskara. As opposed to vasana, an old rot seed. Like a seed that's been there for a long time.

So, fresh seeds are called sanskara. And he says... He's kind of flirting with it here.

He says, let's call these guys sanskaras. And let's call these guys karma. That's okay.

That's a good compromise. This covers all the actions of a human being. This covers a lot of them.

Okay? Got it? Remember, do de di le chung dun de kyi gongpa yinpa dupa ye no.

And that's what the Buddha wanted us to think. That was his gongpa. What's gongpa?

That's what he really had in mind. When he said these three divisions to karma, good karma, bad karma, neutral karma, and then over here he said merit, non-merit, and unshifting, he wanted us to appreciate that they were not the same. That's why he taught two different sets.

And this is more sanskaras, and this is more karmas. This is more actions, and this is more seeds. And then he's going much deeper.

Vasubandhu is going much deeper. He says, by the way, seeds. And then he takes off on a rocket ship.

He's going to go into seeds. All right, you ready? We are time's up, Geshe-la.

But before that, can I ask these questions? Du che mayinpar, these are, is that the relative kind of things? Comparison?

What the Buddha had in mind all along was that we should understand that the division into body, speech, and mind karma was not the same as the division merit, non-merit, and unshifting. Got it. That's what he always had in mind.

Don't get confused. Don't break your head over there's neutral karmas that he's not covering in the second group. He never intended the two groups to match.

Thank you, thank you, Geshe-la. Yeah, you got to work on the next one, two, three. These are short.

I want six sections. Okay, six sections. I stopped here.

I always wondered about this stuff. And by the way, I don't think later commentators necessarily got this idea. Thank you, Geshe-la.

Thank you. Thank you for doing it. I'm going to answer your email any day.

Thank you, Geshe-la. All right. Have a good day, Geshe-la.

All right. Now, Nick, serious break, right? Serious, yes.

No laughing. Wait, boss, you're such a tough boss. We want a 10-minute food break in Sedona.

Yeah, that works. Okay, 6.35. 6.30. You can have until 6.36. Okay, 6.36. Bye. Enjoy.

Bon appétit.

[Speaker 2]
When you're not here.