Сугэн Ши — Книга 2: Колесо жизни (первый принцип и подразделения зависимости), занятие 16

[Speaker 1]
Hey dude, we decided you look younger this year than last year. Shintan looks 10 years younger. This year?

Yeah, really do. I gotta plug in for a while, I hope it doesn't fly. Guys, the road outside my house is so flooded.

It's like this crazy waterfall rushing over the bridge and the stream is going crazy. Cars can't pass, it's like really intense. Maybe you could get into the great ship of Sedona.

[Speaker 2]
It's certainly not the gentle waters.

[Speaker 1]
Jim says no gentle waters, it's the great ship.

[Speaker 2]
It's pretty wild out there.

[Speaker 1]
Amelie said, she's like, I'm not going in that stream. Did she know the word stream already? She says creek, she says creek.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
Because we take her swimming in the creek once in a while, so she says I go into the creek. Oh. Oh.

Yeah, go ahead, Mr. Sagan. All right, thank you, Geshe-la. We'll take a nap while you do your homework.

Sure. But it's fun though. So what is the commotion about the two lines in the first principle?

Commotion? So gang, that's like eight hours of conversation. Eight hours?

Eight hours. No, this is just a simple one. What is this?

Please. I just have to find the wire. Simply, yeah?

Sagan? Sagan, sorry, Nick, what do you think?

[Speaker 2]
I don't. I don't. All right.

Oh, there's.

[Speaker 3]
It's all about the second line.

[Speaker 1]
It's all about the second line. Good.

[Speaker 3]
And whether it teaches the 12 links or not.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, that's the key point. Yeah. So, according to Master Vasubandhu, the first two lines are explaining each other.

But all the other people think that the two statements are just trying to explain the dependence and the connection. Why can we not say that the first two statements are also explaining about the 12 links and the three groups?

[Speaker 2]
The monkey sutra, Sagan. The monkey sutra.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so what are we saying in there? What do they say in there? They say, ooh, ooh, ooh.

[Speaker 2]
Is that something like if they are not the same, then the monkey sutra in the later part would not explain the 12 links?

[Speaker 1]
Yes, that's it. Yeah, if the first two statements already discuss about the 12 links, then Lord Buddha doesn't have to discuss the 12 links in the second part of the sutra. Why do we call it monkey sutra?

Or why is it called monkey sutra? Is that the name given by somebody? We don't know.

It's only mentioned rarely. It's mentioned, as I remember, it's only mentioned three or four times in 2,000 years. Oh, wow.

I can't say. It's not the imperative meaning? Technically, it says the sutra like the monkey, so I don't know if that helps you.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
We'll have to study it. All right. You should see if it made it to China, because it did not make it to Tibet.

[Speaker 2]
Last time I didn't find any yet. I find a title, but I didn't find the book. Okay.

You find what? The title. Only the title.

[Speaker 1]
It might be one of those sutras that the Naga stole.

[Speaker 3]
Protecting, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Wow. Okay. Now, why can't we speak?

I need to talk to them. Yeah, yeah. He can take Jaru.

Actually, when I was standing outside just now, looking at the stream, Aaron was like, look, and there was a huge snake right like three feet away from us. I think it was a bull snake. It was slithering down the creek.

[Speaker 2]
Wow.

[Speaker 1]
It was probably like eight feet long or something. It was really big. Hey, you guys, I saw an advertisement today for us.

There's a local snake society. And if you see a snake, you call them and they come and get it. And they put it someplace nice.

Wow, Nick, you have a good affinity with all the snakes, huh? No. Everywhere.

I'm scared of them. You meet them everywhere. So why can't we say that the two statements are discussing about the direct and indirect causes.

Oh, I don't remember. Because only the second one is discussing about them. No, not directly.

Anybody remember? Something about... Something about what we just discussed in Nick's text just now.

Starting, stopping, staying.

[Speaker 3]
Right. Something about not expressing dependence and connection?

[Speaker 1]
No, no. Not really. Okay.

Okay.

[Speaker 3]
That's good.

[Speaker 1]
This is pretty confusing, but... Yay, confusing. So we are talking about...

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, the stream.

[Speaker 1]
About what?

[Speaker 2]
It's okay. You have the answer.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Oh, I like it. I like it.

I like it. Yeah, so we are talking about getting started and not about staying yet. If you are talking about starting and the continuation, then the flow has to start first.

Things can only get started first. So why would we be talking about continuation without talking about how they get started? Yay, I think you're correct.

Thank you. No, because it's going to go a similar way today. Your text goes a similar way.

So I like it. I was just telling Cynthia, oh my goodness. All the pattern.

It gets easier, by the way. It gets easier, don't worry. Thanks for the encouragement.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
It's easier, Cynthia.

[Speaker 1]
It's easy, you know. When you tell a lie. There's a custom in the West that when you tell a lie, if you cross your finger, it's okay.

I said it gets easier, Cynthia. Some people come along and say... Yay, thank you, world.

Nientu, accept venerable Utpa. So, gang, if you can find any person who doesn't know Nientu by now, I'll give you $100. So if you split it with me, I'll pretend I don't know what it is.

[Speaker 2]
No, I want to ask... Here it means something different, but general disorder doesn't necessarily only mean...

[Speaker 1]
You're right. In my text, it's different, but I just want to point out this term so that it gets drilled into everybody's mind. The question is, are they listening when you do that?

Yeah. I should ask those who don't know. If you don't know, please speak out.

[Speaker 3]
Even Maitreyi knows what it is.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, Maitreyi might not know, Geshe-la. He knows everything before you do, come on. He knows everything.

Okay, then I will ask Amelie. Anyway, Amelie is more omniscient than the omniscient kind.

[Speaker 2]
Actually true.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, the last one. True. Monkey, yay.

Yeah, by the way, just because I like to teach you guys new things, the apostrophe u is the diminutive in Tibetan. It makes the word small. Yeah, so jay is an ape.

A jay is an ape and a jew is a monkey. A jay is a...

[Speaker 2]
Orangutan.

[Speaker 1]
Is like an orangutan, yeah. A baboon, yeah. And a jew is a monkey.

Thank you. Thank you, Geshe-la. Okay, now, the list of...

Oh, this is going to be painful. Okay. Yeah, but Geshe-la, I got your explanation of this in Lam Rim 35.

Oh, no. So I took some inspiration from that lecture and then I sent it to work for sanitization, to sanitize the words even better. You better tell the audience what these are.

Okay, basically these are the 10 stages of life of, I think, human beings.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, starting from womb.

[Speaker 1]
Starting from womb, yeah, according to the Tibetan tradition. So as we go along... It comes from a sangha.

Oh, from a sangha. Oh, okay. So it's not Tibetan, it's Indian.

Right, yeah. Yeah, so as we go along the way, you will realize that it is describing the progression from, as you can see here, the whatever weekly stage, like some kind of thing, all the way until the old age. Until the old age, yeah.

Until 68, okay? Agong Ye Ye.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. All right. Okay, what's it?

You got it. The first sentence is correct. How about the second sentence?

Second sentence. Yeah, it's good. She stays chill, yogurt-like, strip layers.

Stripe or strip? I don't know, striped, yeah. Okay, good.

Third one. Again.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I found telpo.

[Speaker 2]
Where?

[Speaker 1]
In the Great Dictionary. Impossible. But, wait, wait, wait.

It has a kao instead of a lango on it. So I didn't know if it was right, but that's why we put dong. No, I don't know.

G-T-A-L. I can see it. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

It's a hotbox legumon. Okay. I like it.

You're correct. Yay. I couldn't find it, personally.

But Mr. Word found it.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Telpo. Yeah, it is G-T-A-L.

But probably L-T-A-L is an alternate spelling, okay? Which one is hotbox legumon, the L or G? Well, L-T-A-L doesn't occur anywhere else in the universe that I can find.

Yeah, alternate spelling. Hang on. Yeah, the lawa means, it means kind of thin yogurt.

Okay? Thin yogurt. Labo.

Yeah, like thin yogurt. This is like thin yogurt.

[Speaker 3]
Huh?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah, just like that. Okay, but that's not the cow dung. Okay.

Okay, number four. Number four. In the fourth week, it is firmer and has thickened into a denser form.

Perfect. What's nen du supa? Nen means to press it with your finger.

And supa means it can take it. So, if you press, it bounces back, I guess. It's squeezable.

I chose dense for that, Geshe-la. Okay, that's okay. But chang is better...

Well, you got two words for dense here. Chang means... Like when yogurt is firming up, it's called chang.

Getting firmer, yeah. And then kawa means much thicker. If you make a very thick Tibetan tea, they say, Oh, that's nice, that's kawa.

And if you don't put much milk in, they say, Oh, that's lawa. Okay, that's thin.

[Speaker 3]
It's like when you bake a cake. It's ready when you can put your finger on it and the depression comes.

[Speaker 1]
It bounces back. Exactly. Exactly.

Okay. You're doing good, Sugeng. What about number five?

By the way, kawa is usually spelled kawa, I think. But anyway. Okay.

Functional appendages. That's cute. It means to raise, bounce, appear, return, to get, decide, when the limbs are growing.

Shashlakta muddhi. That's... Oh, this gyupa doesn't mean functional.

It means to... Like if you take some dough and you pull it, and it comes out a little bit, that's called gyupa. Extend.

It means to extend. Or to stretch dough. That's called gyupa.

It means the arms and legs are starting to stretch out. Yeah, gyupa. That's nice.

You can say that. Okay. They're starting to get bumps.

Yeah. Okay, number six. Chibanyi chirkeni dromi nyupa yinchengo.

Yeah, where they still can't crawl yet. We're getting close. We're getting super close in Sedona.

In Phoenix, Joaquin walked today. Okay, so...

[Speaker 2]
Right here.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay, good. Your stage, they're able to move about but cannot do anything.

No, what's dupa chupa? Dupa chupa means have sex, okay? It's an ancient word.

Yeah, it's a stage of life until you have your first sexual experience. Dupa chupa means to act with desire. Yeah.

Yeah, so it's till puberty, I guess, or whatever. Okay. Now you can translate the next one.

And ignore the material in parentheses.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay. I see.

[Speaker 1]
So, darla bapa means... Yeah, young adult, good. Up until the age of 30.

From their first sexual experience. Okay, up to the age of 30. From the time of their first sexual experience up to the age of 30.

It doesn't mean do as you please. Your parents probably don't know about it. All right.

Okay. Keep going. You're doing really well.

By the way, those things in parentheses are annotations that are carved several lines away from the words they refer to. And the typists have no idea where they go to. So the rule at ACIP AOL is you just type it where it is.

And Geshe-la will rearrange it later.

[Speaker 2]
See what I mean?

[Speaker 1]
It's like a footnote occurs down here. We tell them, don't try to put it where you think it goes. Because there's no numbers.

It's just a random footnote carved down on the fourth line that refers to the first line or the second line or the third line. We don't know. Yeah, this book is the worst one.

This is an old denial text from the 13th century. Should I keep the translation where it is? Oh, young adult means from the time that you have your first sexual experience up to 30 years of age.

I mean, should I keep this parenthesis? No, no. That refers probably to the second stage or something.

So just leave it out. Just delete it. Okay.

Okay, good. Middle age is John – no. Parmeninos into telne.

Yeah, telne has passed. You've passed 30 up to 50. Good.

Nice. Okay, we're ready for old age. Yay, old age.

Yeah, it's 50 and on. Okay. 50 and on.

Okay, good. This 15 is a mistake. It should be denam pel che wa sa.

Split the BAS into BASA. Yeah. And I don't think we should put it in the footnote because I researched it for like an hour.

And it's just saying that it comes from the 15th chapter of the Bodhisattva Bhumi text by Arya Sangha. But it's weird, so I wouldn't even put it in the footnote. This selection comes from Sonawa in the 13th century.

Okay. Question? Then what was the pel che?

Does it mean it mostly came from there? Yeah, the majority of this presentation can be found in Arya Sangha's 15th chapter. Okay, thank you.

And it also relates to the five stages within the womb found in the auto-commentary to the Abhidharmakosha.

[Speaker 2]
Got it.

[Speaker 1]
He's giving his... I don't think we should add them because it's not clear. And I looked through all the 15th chapters of all of Asanga's works, okay?

And it doesn't work out. So I'm going to skip it. Okay, how about this one, Geshe-la?

That's that... Yeah, the five stages of the womb in the commentary to the treasure house do relate to the first five stages here. But I'm going to leave out this last part.

I'm just going to go up here. Yeah. In your book, I'm not going to put this.

It was just left over. It was a piece of the... Probably I was trying to catch the page number or something, so you don't have to worry about it.

Yeah, sure. It's not worth trying to find it. I spent like an hour and it's not worth it.

Okay, so... That's the best explanation of the 10, though, because it gives the weeks, which I thought was interesting. Yeah, the fetal development.

Okay, let's get to work. Nice job. I can see you guys are spending real time on this, or maybe Word is spending real time on this.

Sorry. I did too. Okay, okay.

I got to call up your text. Hang on. Get rid of this.

Oh, I didn't call it up over here yet. Okay, so we got to... Let's see.

There we go. Okay, now we go over here. Okay, can you see it?

[Speaker 2]
Yes. Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so we translated that. You finished that. Well, let's read this sentence now.

And Tim is going to check you. Thank you, Tim. Okay.

Pretty good. Nice, yeah. Now, the argument that's going on here is that they keep trying to say the reason there's...

So this book that Sugeng is translating is called The Twelve Links of Dependent Origination along with The First Principle. And The First Principle is a reference to a sutra by Lord Buddha where he gives the twelve links, but first he says two principles. What are the two principles, Sugeng?

If this is here, this is there. If this is present, that will happen. That will happen.

And if this stops, that stops. And now there's this huge debate, many pages. Why did he say two first principles?

Before he told the twelve links, he says, if this is present, that's going to happen. If this starts, then that will start. And then he starts the twelve links.

So that's called the first principles. And there's two of them, right? If this is here, if this is present, that will happen.

If this starts, that will start. And then there's this huge debate of why did he give two first principles? Because normally that's illegal in a scripture.

It's called dupaykin. You're not allowed to do redundancy. Either he should have said, if this is here, that will happen, or he should have said, if this starts, that will start.

But why did he say both? And then there's a lot of debate. Everybody's trying to figure out why he said two.

For example, the first one could refer to unchanging things. If this is present, that will happen. But starting, it has to be a changing thing.

So anyway, now we're getting... Okay, let's talk about those stages of development in life, right? The ten stages in life.

When you are watery yogurt, and then you go to thick yogurt. Okay? Let's talk about those stages in the development of a fetus.

And then let's also talk about... By the way, this shodang oma does not relate to the stages he just talked about. Discussing yogurt and milk is a very, very famous example in ancient books about transformation.

Like you put the yeast in the milk, you boil the milk, you put the yeast in, and then in India you hang it up on the rafters of the chai shop, and it's covered by flies. Literally, you can't see the yogurt. And then they sell it the next day.

And I had it many times, it's delicious. So anyway, yogurt and milk. So look, I'll ask you, Sugeng, how does your two first principle statements relate to the transformation of milk into yogurt, or the transformation of a watery baby into a thick yogurt baby?

Well, I mean... I'm going to answer for you.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
The emphasis is on sustained stages. Sustained stages. Put the milk for 24 hours in a bowl, cover it with flies, throw in the yeast, and then 24 hours later it's going to be in the yogurt stage.

Or, keep a baby in the womb for three weeks, and they'll go from watery yogurt to thick yogurt. Okay, little yogurt? The point is, we have stages.

And the stages have a sustained existence. Now, why do you think someone would bring that up in this discussion? Just guess.

I think it is... Don't forget, what's the big debate we're having? Why the hell, sorry, why the heck did Lord Buddha give how many first principles?

Two. Yeah, it's uncomfortable even to say two first principles. He should have called it the first two principles.

Okay. So people are struggling to explain why he gave two sentences in his quote, first principle. Okay.

And what do you think this guy's going to say? What do you think he's going to say is the difference between the two first principles? Come on, Sugeng, think, think, think.

Oh, yeah, I think we have finished talking about the starting. So now are we going to the staying part? Well...

Well, first he said... First some guy came and said, Oh, Buddha said if this is present, that will occur. And then he says if this starts, that starts.

When he said if this is present, that will occur, he was talking about general causation. When he said if this starts, that starts, he was already getting into the twelve... Links.

Links. Then we said no, because monkey sutra has those two statements, and then goes straight into the links. So why would they have both statements and then go into the links?

If the second statement is meant to refer to the links, why do they go into the links in the same sutra? Okay? Now this guy wants to say something else, Sugeng.

He has a different theory about why there's two sentences in the first principle. What do you think his theory is? He's trying to say there's a difference between start and start, and be there for a while, and make something else happen for a while.

I just gave you a big clue. Yeah, this thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If this is present, that will occur. This guy says, oh, that refers to sustained causation. There's a week of watery baby, and then there's two weeks of yogurt baby.

When you say if this starts, that starts, they're talking about instantaneous cause and effect. When you say if this is hanging around, that will hang around. They're talking about yogurt coming from milk which stopped for a day.

You're talking about sustained causes causing sustained periods. He wants to say that. By the way, in all Abhidharma literature, kye ne jik, very important.

Starting, staying, and stopping. In fact, there's a famous line about the staying where Buddha said, I'll give you the stages of existence. Kye and jik.

Starting and destroying. What did he say? Somebody tried to correct him.

What about staying, Lord Buddha? Yeah, what happened to staying? He said, I'm trying to give you guys renunciation.

I'm trying to teach you renunciation. The staying is so short it's not worth mentioning.

[Speaker 2]
You just die right away.

[Speaker 1]
He says, you want to know why? It's not that I was stupid and I left out staying. The staying, you're not there for very long, just forget it.

Get ready to die. This guy said, I think the first part of that first principle was talking about the staying of the cause and then staying of the result. Got it?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
The trigger, kye ne jik, start, stop, that was instant by instant. Got it? Yeah.

Oh, wow. Then, gyul khan shing nepa yun na, yur do shing dir jukpa jang. kye ne nepa yun na, gyul khan shing nepa yun na, yur do shing dir jukpa jang.

Then Vasubandhu says, why at the beginning of talking about causation should Buddha be talking about staying? Wow. The whole book is about causation.

Then why in the opening lines should Buddha start out by saying, oh, things stay for a while. He's supposed to talk about triggers. He's not talking about staying for a while.

Forget that. yun na yur do shing dir jukpa jang. Tell me why he should be saying, tell me why he should be talking about sustained presence in the first lines of a book about triggers.

Okay? It's too early, and it's irrelevant. We're interested in the triggers.

All right. Tough book, tough book. Sorry.

Okay. Keep going. Okay, now, very interesting.

Okay, that guy got blown away. Okay? He's already retreated.

Okay, now another guy comes up. He says, I have a different idea why the Buddha made two sentences. And we say, okay, now you tell us your dumb idea.

And he says, well, the emphasis is on drel bu yun na, once the result has come out, the cause has been destroyed. Once the tree grows, the seed is destroyed. The tree...

Okay? So when he said dir yun na, dir jung, he was saying, if the tree is present, the destruction of the seed occurs. Okay?

If this is present, that happens, refers to if the tree comes out, then the destruction of the seed has occurred.

[Speaker 2]
Clever.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? Got it? Yeah.

Now, the first guy was saying, oh, let's talk about staying, and Vasubandhu said, come on. It's a book about triggers. And now this other guy says, well, I know what he's talking about.

When he said, if this is present, this happens, he meant, if the result has come out, then the destruction of the cause has occurred. Okay? Got it?

drel bu yun na, drel bu yun na, if the result is present, gyur jikpa gyur, the cause has... the occurrence of the destruction of the cause has happened.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. And you couldn't call jikpa gyur, it wouldn't...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and then he says, nyam tu stem na nyes, I think that's what he's saying. Okay? This is some nerd, okay?

Some Buddhist nerd. Mixed nuts former life. I think it's that.

That's what I think. Okay? Now, here's our response.

Please read. Ellie's checking me. Ona ni, drel bu kye wa gyur me pa, chen du gyur ro.

[Speaker 2]
Good.

[Speaker 1]
Good. You got a good one. You got a good one from Hopper.

Well, all right. See? So I guess the arising of the result happens gyur me pa.

Without cause? Without a cause?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you very much. Buddha was talking about the destruction of the cause and the result coming out. I understand.

So it means that results come without any cause. Okay? There is no cause.

The cause was destroyed. Okay? Got it?

If the cause and the result cannot exist simultaneously, how can one touch the other? It's not possible. The mother can't be around when the baby comes out, or something's going to happen.

You know? Okay? He says, Oh, so if the result came out, then the cause was destroyed.

That's what the Buddha's trying to talk about? Yeah. Okay, so you can have results with no causes, right?

Why do you say that? Well, because the first moment of the result, the cause is already destroyed. So you can't have a result without a cause.

Oh, no. No, it still causes it. It just disappears just before the result comes out.

Okay. Then that cause caused everything in the universe. Why do you say that?

Because there doesn't have to be any connection between the result and the cause. Okay? Yay, there we go.

Okay, so let's go to another sentence. I don't know, who's checking? Who's checking?

Ben Kramer, are you in the mood?

[Speaker 3]
Sure.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good. Okay, good. Okay, so what's your position now?

Oh, when he got to... When he said, if this is present, this happens, he was talking about if the result is present, then the destruction of the cause must have already happened. Okay.

Well, what does di kye pay na di kye? If this starts, this starts. Well, that's talking about a case when there wasn't any no cause.

The first line was talking about a case where the cause had already disappeared. The second line was talking about a case where the cause was still here. That's that guy, okay?

Gyu me pa chen min gyur. Oh, the second line of the first principle was talking about a case where the cause hadn't disappeared yet.

[Speaker 3]
Wow.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, guys. So min gyur here refers to not happening. The gyu me pa didn't happen yet.

The gyu me pa has not happened yet. Double negative. The lack of a cause didn't show up yet.

Wow. That's the second line of the first principle. If this starts, that will start.

Okay? If the ending of the cause starts, the result will start. Okay?

Okay, got it? And the first line says, when the cause has ended, the result has started. This is another guy's interpretation, okay?

Vasubandhu says, shen du tenpa me pa la shen du tenpa Your presentation of why something which is not presenting anything else is presenting something else. Okay? Your presentation of why something which is not talking about something else is talking about something else.

Okay? I'll say it again. Your presentation which you just concluded, in which you said something that was talking about something else wasn't actually talking about something else.

When you said he's talking about the destruction of the cause leading to the result, you're talking about something new which is not talking about something new because it's irrelevant here. Okay? Your presentation of something else which is not a presentation of something else.

Okay? Because it's nothing. It's just RANG RGYAS TSIG.

You're just saying whatever blubber you want. Okay? That's DO MA YIN.

DO MA YIN. It's not the sutra? Sutra never said anything like that.

You're just blabbing whatever you want to blab. Okay? You have presented a technical presentation of something which is not being indicated in the text as being indicated in the text.

It's actually just you talking your own ideas. It's not the sutra. So forget it.

Okay? All right? I don't like that idea either.

Okay? All right, here's another one. Not easy.

Wait. Utpala's checking. Utpala's checking.

You guys could actually... This SOM PA means he's starting his sutra. This SOM PA means he's starting his sutra.

Lord Buddha is starting his SOM PA, his sutra. He's starting to speak, PHYIR PA. He's starting to explain how things happen in dependence and connection, right?

Dependent Origination. The Buddha is just starting to talk about how things happen in dependence and connection. Okay?

I'll say it again. Lord Buddha is just starting to talk about how things happen in dependence and connection. And your idea, where you say it all refers to the destruction of the seed.

Okay? What's the connection? It's a pun.

It's a pun. Okay? What?

You just said he's talking about destruction when he's talking about happening. DBYUNG BA is the opposite of GCIG PA, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Oh! So Buddha is going to explain how things happen and he starts out explaining how things don't happen. I did it.

That's good. That's good. Vasubandhu is tearing the guy up.

Okay? I'll say it again. Oh!

So the Buddha wanted to talk about how things happen, right? Yeah! And so he started talking about how things didn't happen, right?

Yeah! Oh! And what kind of happening was he talking about?

Connection! And what goddamn connection does what you said have to do with that? He's making two puns in the same sentence.

[Speaker 2]
He's making two puns in the same sentence.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? Got it? Buddha was describing how things happen and you've explained it as not happening.

That's great. And what connection does that have to things happening in connection, please? Okay.

It's... Vasubandhu is being a little tough. That is so funny.

Yeah. I think I learned quite a fair bit of grammar here. Thanks, Geshe-la.

Yeah, we learned a lot of sarcasm. It seems to be... Maybe...

I think it was the former life of Delta J. All right. Let's go.

Please read. Okay, good. The destruction of the cause is not what it means for something to start.

Don't give me this. RGYUD ZHIG PA, past tense of ZHIG PA, okay? Like ZHIG RTEN, ZHIG LTA BA, ZHIG LTA.

Okay? The destruction of the cause is not the birth of a thing. Come on.

Those are separate things. First of all, the destruction of the cause is not the starting of the thing. Don't give me that.

And moreover, that's nothing... Sorry. DE BA LA BRTEN PA YANG MA YIN TE Okay, the destruction of the cause is not something that depends on the result coming out.

The destruction of the cause is not something that depends on the result coming out. Okay? This is us talking to him.

Okay? The destruction of the... I'll say it again.

I'll say it again. By the way, he's mostly third school in this book. God bless him.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, third school.

[Speaker 1]
All right? He's a very different Vasubandhu than you will ever see in Stanley's house. Okay?

No, you almost can't recognize this Vasubandhu if you read the Abhidharma quotient. It sounds like a different guy.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He really put on an Abhidharma hat when he wrote the Abhidharma. It must have been painful for him. Okay, anyway.

The destruction of the cause... Listen, it's not the starting. Don't say that.

And the destruction of the cause is not something that has to wait until the result comes out. It's not a dependent relationship. It's not a dependent relationship.

I'm going to say it again. The destruction of the cause is not something that has to depend on the result coming out. Why?

Because when an instantaneous entity stops, it doesn't take any outside force to make it happen. It self-destructs. And he's talking about us.

Okay? He's talking about us. Okay?

Caused entities self-destruct. They don't have to wait for the result to come out, and then the presence of the result proves that the cause is gone. They will self-destruct whether or not a goddamn result comes out.

They don't need a kin to self-destruct. They don't need an outside force, right? Very famous Buddhist principle.

We had it in DCI, right? The death of a person... It's the baby in the vault.

It's the baby in the vault. You can protect a child in a vault, feed them, give them exercise, make them eat organic food, and they will still kill themselves, because that's the nature of life. So anyway, kye chikme chod jikpa la kyan The destruction of an entity which only lasts instant to instant doesn't depend on an outside condition.

The baby in the vault will die on its own. It doesn't need a car accident or a virus. We have three minutes left.

This is so heavy, right? This is so heavy. Oh my gosh.

I mean, this is the rewards of tackling a difficult text. The rewards are much higher. The rewards are much higher.

All right, here we go. Please read. Yeah, this is really, really funny.

Oh! Well, if your idea is right, and the destruction of the cause leads to the result, okay, then I guess everybody carved the text wrong. It should have said, if this is present, that didn't happen.

Okay? If this is present, that didn't happen. Okay?

Why? If the cause is present, the result didn't happen, because the appearance of the result is the destruction of the cause. So the Buddha made a mistake in the first line of the goddamn sutra.

He should have said, if this is present, that won't happen. If the cause is still present, the result couldn't happen. Why?

Because the result can't come out until the cause is destroyed. Yeah. That is...

It's really funny. Oh, I guess Buddha forgot. Buddha made a mistake.

He meant to say, I lost my hat, instead I found my hat. I'm sorry, it's crazy. Got it?

I'll say it again. If the Buddha said, if this is present, then that will happen. If he meant, if the destruction of the cause is present, then the result will happen.

Then he should have said, if this is present, that won't happen, because if the cause is still present, the result couldn't happen yet. Oh, okay. Are you okay?

Yeah, I'm still good, yeah. I think there was an explosion. That is time, just so you know.

[Speaker 2]
It's time.

[Speaker 1]
All right, all right. It's so beautiful, yeah, okay. It's so funny.

It's so Vasubandhu. It's starting to sound like... Oh, so I guess we should change the first line of the sutra.

If this is present, this can't happen. Okay. It's so funny.

Oh, by the way, let's go. We can understand the next sentence. It's so beautiful.

Okay, let's do that for free. Here we go. DE LTAR BYAS NA DE LTAR BYAS NA, SIMDUG BSAL BAR GONG DU CHUD PAR RGYUR RO Yeah, look, if you just stick with what I said, you'll understand everything.

Forget those stupid ideas. It's totally clear what he's trying to say. It's totally clear.

SIMDUG, SIMDUG DUN GSAL The meaning is totally clear. Come on, don't get all complicated. Anyone can understand it.

Don't give me all this staying, or yogurt, and mer mer po, and mer mer po, or don't give me the yogurt kid, and don't give me the periods in the womb. Don't give me the cause disappearing so the result could come out. Just stick with what I said.

It's simple, and it's clear. Okay? Who's talking?

Vassu Manu. Yeah, Master Vassu Manu. Vassu Manu.

GONG DU CHUD PAR is clear, right? I understand deep in your heart. Totally graspable.

Totally graspable. Okay? So, just stick with what I said.

It's all very clear. What was his position, why the two statements were made? And what's his position on the difference between them?

No difference, right? We are saying... Yeah, Vassu Manu said no difference at all.

No difference at all. There's not even any slight flavor of difference. They mean exactly the same thing.

Moreover, then the guy said, well, why did he repeat himself? And then what did Vassu Manu say at the beginning? They clarify each other.

Yeah, they clarify each other. He said, listen, stick to those two things I said. Number one, there's no difference between the two sentences about first principles.

And secondly, the reason Buddha said two of them is they support each other. Okay? Exactly.

And just stick with that. Everything's good. That's what he just said.

Okay? Got it?

[Speaker 2]
Autocomment what he's saying.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, stick with me. Stick with my explanation. Everything's clear.

Okay? Cool? Cool.

So, what is next for me, Geshe-la? You're hoping he's going on to a different topic. He's still talking a little bit about those guys, but I'll give you some hope, okay?

Oh, you want to know what you're going to translate next. Yes. I'm just afraid I translated everything for you.

That would be great, Geshe-la.

[Speaker 2]
I don't like that at all.

[Speaker 1]
Well, I'll give you a suggestion. Word's going to help you. Okay?

And Word's going to take out the English for the next three lines and send it to you. Okay? I'm in confusion.

Okay. So, I want you to start with DGE BA'I NA. And I want you to translate those three lines, and I don't want you to look at...

By the way, it's not a translation from me. It's some notes I made in a coffee shop when I was reading it once, years and years ago. Okay?

So, don't take my notes as correct, but I left them in because I thought maybe I could remember some ideas I had. So, it's kind of dangerous, actually. All right.

All right. Good luck. Okay.

See you. See you.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you, Geshe Michael. Thank you, everybody.

[Speaker 1]
605.

[Speaker 2]
Exactly.

[Speaker 1]
605 Arizona time. So, yeah. Japanese yogurt.