Сугэн Ши — Книга 2: Колесо жизни (первый принцип и подразделения зависимости), занятие 15

[Speaker 1]
Sure. Sure, let's show I started guessing ran away. Oh, can you hear me.

Can I start with the homework, please. Yes, please go for it. Okay, so let's start.

We didn't discuss much. I think, I think five paragraph, because I asked a lot of questions. So, I have to borrow some questions from Ben's book.

So what is the belief of the numerous, except Ben, please. Remember that the cause of something is hidden inside the effect. Yeah, that's the thing is hidden is that the effect is hidden inside.

Yeah. Well I guess you could say either one. Either one.

So the effect exists before the cost happens. Okay, now, referring that to the two statements below. If this exists, then that happens if this starts then this would start, or we call them the first principle.

[Speaker 2]
What is the problem if we omit the second sentence, we're losing the sense of the interaction of changing things of changing causes do just changing causes.

[Speaker 3]
So, maybe that to exist is not the same as to start. And there are things that exist but never start in the sense of begin, begun. Yeah, this is if we lose the second one.

[Speaker 2]
So why do we need the second one right.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Why do we need the second one. Well, yeah I agree with what Ben mentioned, but somehow in our discussion, we were focusing more on the unchanging nature.

So, basically we can prove the unchanging nature. So basically, it is to prevent people from having the wrong idea of unchanging nature, which can be inferred by reading the first sentence alone. I know it.

It sounds a bit confusing or quite confusing. Okay. Yeah, I don't know I think I think I need to chew on this further but somehow this is what I got from the text.

I'm sorry Ben. I could, I could, I could, I could feel what you're feeling. So now that the next question, what's the problem if we omit the first sentence.

So if we were to omit the first sentence. What would be the problem. Then, things that exist, but don't change would then not would be omitted would be wouldn't be possible.

Okay, good attempt. Well, I mean, it seems to be like a trap you know after we go into this train of thought. Suddenly, the answer is actually not related to this one at all.

Anybody remember what, what, what we discussed.

[Speaker 2]
If we omit the first of the three kinds of dependence.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, that's right. That's right. The tree.

So, we are not giving the general framework of everything in the world which consists of the three kinds of dependence.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
All right. Now, let's go to the Tibetan words come young room. What is that whatever is suitable to be called, which, whichever the two, whichever way.

Thank you.

[Speaker 2]
Actually room wise suitable. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Sure. Sure. Whichever suitable.

Whichever is suitable. Can I say this. Yeah.

All right. Oh, shit you. It could be a expression but I don't think knows the other way.

The curating expression. I think it's expresses it or something. Expression, I don't know I just, I just copied.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I don't know if you need a shit or not. No, you don't need to see.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you go. No, I don't need to see. All right.

By the way, the first one guy on what does mean, whichever you don't have to say suitable.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah, whichever way.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, no, it just means, yeah, whichever way is fine. Yeah. Even which.

Okay, okay. Whichever Okay, I think this is. Yeah.

Okay, except bad what is count. Accounts, numerous.

[Speaker 2]
Capital N please come on we have our dignity.

[Speaker 3]
One creation that is not the creator. Oh, creators that are creations.

[Speaker 1]
It's from Sesame Street Emily actually does that she says 123. All right. Okay.

The attempted translation. Oh my god, here we go. Oh man, this is different, difficult.

DNA June. Yeah, this you want me to read it. Yes, please.

Data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data, data dum bu sum nam par shakpa mepe, nyi mi gyupar gyuro. Okay.

This is really hard. This is to say, if this exists, then that happens. That's good so far.

If this starts, then this will start. That's good so far. Thus, experiencing happiness depends on contact, as it's from contact that good feelings arise.

Yeah. I'm going to say... Well, he's talking about drupa and dumba, Sugeng.

Okay, drupa and dumba. What's drupa and dumba? Drupa, rekpa, dumba, tsoba.

Oh. Six and seven. Oh, the three touching?

Is that? Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Contact.

[Speaker 1]
Number six. Three contacts. Link number six, contact, and then link number seven, feeling, okay?

Feeling. So here's the contact, rekpa here, okay? That means contact in line three.

Third line. So there's the contact. Due to contact with a pleasant feeling object, like a pillow, okay?

Like the feeling of a pillow. Due to that contact, in the next moment, you get tsorwa. The feeling.

Yeah, so one triggers the other. The contact with the pillow, which is a pleasant feeling thing, physical pleasant feeling thing, triggers an emotion or an inner mental feeling of pleasure. Oh, I like this pillow.

This is a nice pillow. Okay? Tsowa jungwa gyurop.

Now, who said that? Shakyamuni. Is this the sutra?

The term? The sutra? Buddha?

Yeah. This is a sutra, if I'm not mistaken, this is called the Monkey Sutra. Very dull.

This whole quotation, if I'm not mistaken, is from a sutra called the Monkey Sutra. And it says... Okay, listen.

It says... Here's the Monkey Sutra. I'm going to recite the Monkey Sutra.

It says, if this exists, then this is going to happen. And if this starts, then that's going to start. Di ta te.

And here's how it works. If you touch something that has a pleasant feeling, then that triggers a pleasant sensation of feeling in your heart or feeling in your mind. Okay?

Okay? So he's already talking about the... The trigger, the link.

The twelve links. He's already talking about the twelve links. So let's look at the three parts here.

Number one. If this exists, then this is going to happen. Number two.

If this starts, this is going to happen. And I'll tell you what. For example, if you have contact with a pleasant pillow, you're going to feel good.

Which is the trigger between six and seven. Now, this sentence is being brought up by Vasubandhu to prove the other guy is wrong. Okay?

So what did the other guy say that upset Vasubandhu? The other guy said, Look, you said those two sentences are exactly the same. They just help clarify each other.

You said there's no big difference between the first line and the second line of the first principle. You said there's no big difference. I say you're wrong.

I say when Buddha said, if this starts, then that starts, he was already referring to the links. Okay? So the first sentence, if this exists, that happens, that was the first principle.

And then the second sentence, if this starts, that starts, was already an explanation of the twelve links. Okay? And then we say, Well, I guess the monkey sutra was making a monkey of itself because it has both of those sentences and it presents the twelve links.

Okay? Got it? Okay?

So this is our counterexample. Look, if the second line is talking about the twelve links, then why is there a sutra where they have both of the lines and then they start explaining the twelve links? Okay, got it?

It's very difficult. Yeah, very subtle. And what is this three, Geshe-la?

Yeah, you tell me. Can the Wheel of Life be divided into three general themes? The twelve links divided into three themes.

Three groups? Yep, three general groups. Ah, yeah.

I'll give it to you in Tibetan, okay? Lei Nyi. The two...

The two causal karma and then the... Two of the links to karma. Nyomong Sum.

Three negative... Yeah, emotions. Three emotions, negative emotions.

And five of them are Debu. Namin. Namin.

Debu. Namin. Vipaka.

[Speaker 2]
Results.

[Speaker 1]
Karmic results. Karmic results, okay. Yeah, so actually five causes, seven results, and the five causes are divided into two parts, karma and mental afflictions, okay?

Le Nyon. Yeah, okay, good, yeah. What are the three mental afflictions, just to test you?

Wait, what did you say? Is it the... In the outer twelve.

Is it the three... Let me link numbers. One, eight, nine.

Yeah, one, eight, and nine. One, eight, and nine are negative emotions. Misunderstanding is one.

Eight is initial desire. That's desire. What's the two karmas?

Two and ten. Yeah, two and ten. Harsh karma and ripe karma, okay?

Then the other seven are just boring results, next life, from all the bad things you did, okay? You get consciousness, you get a body, you get your feelings, you get contacts, you get rebirth, you get aging, death. Those are all results, okay?

So the other guy said, look, the whole purpose of the second... what you're calling first principle, Vasubandhu, is not first principle. The second line is already describing the twelve links.

And then Vasubandhu comes back with, oh, so I guess the monkey sutra wasn't talking about the twelve links and the three divisions of the twelve links, huh? Okay. All right.

So this nyi refers to the first principle and the dependence. Well, this nyi mi gyepar gyurl means, in that case, the monkey sutra wasn't mentioning two first principles. Two first...

oh, the two first principles, which is the dependence and the connection, right? Yeah, according to you, it never mentioned two lines of first principle when it mentioned the two lines of first principles, and then mentioned the twelve links, because the second line of the first principles, according to you, is the twelve links. Okay.

So I guess the monkey sutra never mentioned... didn't have... I guess the monkey sutra never gave the two lines of the first principle because the second line of the first principles, according to you, is the twelve links, and he went on to talk about the twelve links separately.

Oh, okay. Okay. Wow.

Okay. Well, I mean, very subtle, right? Yeah.

Good luck. This book is not easy. You got the hardest book of all, I can say.

You just passed word. Okay. Geshe-la, what is this dumbu separately?

Dumbu means a group. Dumbu. Dumbu means group.

Well, actually, dumbu means a piece, like if you take a piece of cake and you break it into three parts, each one is called a dumbu. I see. Three sections.

Oh, three sections, yeah. And what is this num here? Or.

Or, okay. Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Right? There's no presentation of the different links or the three sections? Yeah.

YEN LAG GZHAN DANG GZHAN, there's no different links presented, or neither is there any three parts presented. Then, GNYIS MIN SBYOD PAR GYUR RO, then he didn't have to mention the first two principles. He did not have to mention the two parts of the first principle, because according to you, the second part of the first principle is already the twelve links.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, interesting.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Therefore, who spoke the monkey sutra? I looked in the Kangyur, it's not in the Kangyur now, but it is mentioned a few times in the Tengyur.

And so it must have been stated by Lord Buddha. So, hey, I guess Lord Buddha got his first principles wrong.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. All right, thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Geshe Michael, you would say the two, even though it's not like nyi po or something, would you still say? Oh, yeah, I would, yeah, yeah, yeah, I would. And by the way, I mean, again, it's extremely frustrating.

You know, you're not gonna get any help. You're gonna wake up 20 years from now and say, oh my God, that's what this means. You're gonna, Shinten, if he wakes up in the middle of the night, 13 years from today, he's just figured it out.

Okay, all right. Okay, here we go. Please read, and ignore my notes.

The notes were made in a coffee shop in Guangzhou when I was in a mood, okay? But I don't want to erase them in case one of them is right. And let me get you guys back.

Where are you? I just saw Juan Hustle wants to check you. Okay.

,GZHAN NA RE YIN LAG GZHAN DANG GZHAN DUNG PA YIN NO ZHEL Yeah, GZHAN NA RE is like KA'I GCIG NA RE, okay? By the way, the last statement here was, well, anyway, they're talking about the two sentences that we say are both first principle, okay? And then this guy says, oh no, the second line is talking about YIN LAG GZHAN DANG GZHAN.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay.

[Speaker 1]
The second line. All the links. Yeah, the second line is just a reference to the 12 links.

12 links, yeah. Don't tell me, Vasubandhu, that the two lines support each other, that there's no difference between the two lines. That's what Vasubandhu said, okay?

Somebody said, what's the difference? He said, no difference at all. And then they said, why did they teach two?

And he said, well, they support each other. Now, KA'I GCIG NA RE means somebody says, GZHAN NA RE means some other guy says, okay? NA RE means some guy says.

Oh, the second line that you call first principle line number two is actually talking about the links. It's a reference to the links, all right? Okay, now, and then somebody else comes up and says, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Okay, Haso, keep going. Sugeng, keep going. GZHAN NA RE GZHAN NA RE DUM BU GSUM NAM PAR ZHAG PA YIN NO ZHAL Then another GZHAN NA RE, another guy says, no, no, no, no, no.

The second line is meant to teach the three sections of the 12 links, okay? So you got one guy saying, the second line, if this starts, that starts, is talking about the triggers between the links. And somebody else says, no, no, no.

It's talking about the triggers between the three groups. If you have these negative emotions, you will create these kinds of karma and they will ripen into the seven result links, okay? That's why he mentioned triggers.

The first guy says, oh, triggers. He must be talking about the links. The second guy says, oh, triggers.

He must be talking about the three groups. And keep going, Haso, keep going. DE NI MA RIG PA LA ZOG PA DE DAG RGYEN YIN PAS DE DAG DE DAG RGYEN YIN PAS GCIG KHO NAS NYID DGA' DRUG PA'I BRDUN YIN PA MA YIN NO Okay.

BRDUN YIN PA MA YIN NO means... Well, I guess everything else he said about the 12 links was meaningless. Because the sutra, it starts with those two lines and then the sutra describes the 12 links, okay?

The sutra on first principles and dependent origination gives the two principles and then it describes the 12 links in detail, okay? And Vastu Bandhu says, oh, well, I guess that whole second part of the sutra must be worthless. Yeah.

And then the guy says, why do you say that? He says, well, you said the second sentence of what we call first principle already explained the triggering process between the links. But both of those points, what's both points?

Are called later.

[Speaker 2]
First and second.

[Speaker 1]
No, the division into 12 and the division into three groups, both of those points are described in the sutra by the Buddha with a lot of words after the first two principle sentences. So Vastu Bandhu says, if you guys are right and if the second line is describing the 12 links and the interaction of the three parts, then why the heck did Buddha say anything else in the sutra? Wow.

Okay? This is so confusing. Very difficult, extremely difficult.

By the way, it gets easier. Why? Tell me why.

Why does this book get easier? Easier than... Where is he going?

The first link. The 12 links, which we've already studied? Yeah, look, here's the structure of this book.

Here it is right here. Okay? Introductory material.

It's a bitch, excuse me. And then, okay, misunderstanding. We've been through that.

We've been through fetch karma. We've been through consciousness. We've been through all the links, okay?

That can't be so easy for you, Siddhu. Yeah. Just this introductory material that's weird.

Okay? It's just weird. I'm sorry.

I didn't write it. Okay? Don't believe me.

Well, I think this is good because we are going, we are actually tearing apart the first principle alone, yeah. Yeah, and by the way, no one is gonna have the guts to translate this book, except you. Nobody else is foolish enough to try.

Okay? All right. Yay.

Yay. So, let's keep going. Excuse me?

Is it supposed to be a semicolon after my, you know, or how am I? Yeah, I can take out all the semicolons. The semicolons are broken shays because it's a single syllable.

That's a long syllable. Okay. We should probably do it immediately before we start typing any English in.

Now it's too late. Okay. We'll have to do it manually.

Okay, let's read. And Stanley's just dying to correct. I don't know what's going on.

[Speaker 2]
Let's do it again.

[Speaker 1]
You're too perfect. TRE BU THA BU'I DO LAS KYANG DE LA PHAG PA NYAN THU THOD PA DANG LDAN PA NAM TEN CING DREL BAR BYUNG BA NYID LA LEGS PAR ZIN TU TSUL ZIN SO SOR RTOG TE Good. RTOG means what?

You guys know?

[Speaker 3]
Monkey.

[Speaker 1]
Monkey. And in colloquial Tibetan, what is it word? Do you know?

[Speaker 3]
A mingyur?

[Speaker 1]
No, that's a, you're thinking of a...

[Speaker 3]
An ape?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's, what is that called?

[Speaker 3]
An ape or a yeti?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, what is that called? Yeah, there's a special word. MIR GOS.

MIR GOS. The same word that's used in meditation books about agitation. Is Trel a monkey in Colombo?

I just wanted to teach you guys, in scripture, it's TU. In spoken, it's RYU, without the RATA. I'm getting this channel.

[Speaker 3]
It's Juan, you've got a translator in the background there, Juan. You've got to mute, buddy.

[Speaker 1]
Ah-ha, Juan. Okay, RPYUD LTA BU'I RTOG. The sutra called, Just Like a Monkey Says.

[Speaker 3]
Juan Hasso. There we go.

[Speaker 1]
We got him. We got him. It's like catching a fly.

These NYEN THOS who are PHAG PA, So gang, these NYEN THOS who are PHAG PA, if you don't get NYEN THOS right, I'm going to die right now. I talked about it for hours and hours. NYEN THOS.

No pressure. Listeners, again, keep them alive. Yeah, the...

[Speaker 3]
I'm not risking it. Listeners, save them.

[Speaker 1]
Well, we talked like four or five kinds of listeners. We spent like an hour on listeners. Yeah, the...

Listeners. The heard and spread. Heard and spread.

Hearer and spreader. Okay, so now it's just general disciples, okay? But they happen to be PHAG PAs, okay?

Arya. Arya distinct disciples. Don't think, Shravakant.

Okay, those Arya disciples who have THUD PA. Really? Realization?

No, THOS SANG SGOM. Oh, hearing, hearing. Yeah, who spent a lot of time in the Mixed Nuts classes.

That's called THUD PA. THUD PA. And I'm not kidding.

Okay, those guys really understand DEN CING DRAG BA SPRING BA. Are the dependents and the connection. Yeah.

LAS PAR BZHIN DU SO SO RTOG. There's Stanley Stokes. I'm going to call it Stanley Stokes for the rest of my life.

There's one of Stanley Stokes there. They SO SO RTOG all those twelve. They understand?

Yeah, them one by one. One by one? Yeah, SO SO RTOG, okay?

Correctly. TSUL SHIN. DIP TSUL SHIN.

They LAS PAR understand. Good. BZHIN DU, very good.

TSUL SHIN. Properly. SO SO RTOG, how many?

Each link. Now the SO SO is important, right? Why?

Referring to all the links or all the parts? Or both the connection and the dependents and connection? No, it's talking about the links, okay?

One each of the link, okay. Why did Vasubandhu quote this sutra right now? Because up here some- One guy said, yeah, the second sentence of first principle is just talking about the links.

And then another guy said, no, the second sentence of first principle is talking about the twelve, okay? And then Vasubandhu says, well, how about this sutra where they talk about guys who understand the links very well, okay? It says, if this happens, I'm sorry, if this exists, that happens.

And if this starts, then that starts, okay? And then it starts off explaining the triggering of links by links. Why does it have the second line?

Why does it have the second line? Okay, got it? Why should the monkey sutra have both lines of the first principle if it starts explaining the twelve links after that and it's talking about people who understood the twelve links?

Got it? Then why did Buddha mention it twice? Why did he mention the twelve links twice?

Okay? If the second part of the first principle declaration is talking about the twelve links, why does it talk more about the twelve links?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Here's another wrong idea about those two lines. Here we go.

Who is up? How about Nicholas? Are you there?

St. Nicholas? I think his boss has got him. Cat, are you up for this?

Sorry, I'm here. I just couldn't find the audio. Okay, Nicholas.

Yes. Cat, can you hear me? Yeah.

Shendak nare. Now you know what nare means. Like kachig nare.

Someone, another person saying? Yeah, if you want to translate it elegantly, you can say another idiot shows up and says, okay, that's shendak nare. Another idiot shows up and says, by the way, the last idiot retreated already after the monkey sutra.

He's quiet now.

[Speaker 2]
Is that daka plural? Pluralizer?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it is. It's actually a dualizer, but here it's a pluralizer. Other people might say?

Other guys come up. Yeah, other people might say, oh, there's a chedak between these two lines. Chedak.

Chi chedak. Chi chedak. The members, components?

Yeah, in this case, chedak means difference. Difference. In the dun, in the meaning of these two lines.

There's a difference in the meaning of these two lines. If this is there, this occurs. And if this happens, I'm sorry, if this starts, that starts.

Well, there's a difference, okay? Well, they're talking about mun sum ken and gyu pey ken. Conditions.

Mun sum. This is called a ngu gyu and a gyu gyu, you guys. Ngu gyu.

Direct and indirect causes. Yeah, direct cause is easy. The seed for the tree.

What's an indirect cause? The seed for the fruit, the sunlight. Yeah, or you could say the seed for the next generation, the seed, because in between them, there has to be a...

The tree and the fruit. The tree has to grow, the fruit has to grow. Okay, so if something leads directly into the result, we call it mun sum.

If something goes through a couple of other results before it gets to the result you want to talk about, that's gyu gyu, okay? He calls it here mun sum ken and gyu pey ken. This should be gyu pey, okay?

So what's he saying? Think about it, Tzugang. Nobody help him, okay?

Word. Somebody comes up with a different idea. Oh, there's a chedak between those two lines.

There's a difference between those two lines. They're not the same like Vasubandhu says. Vasubandhu said no difference.

That's not true. One is showing what, and one is showing what? One is showing ngu gyu, and one is showing gyu gyu.

Right, right. Yeah, so the immediate cause, and there's another word for that. Immediate cause and indirect cause.

Direct cause and indirect cause, okay? Direct cause and indirect cause, okay? All right?

So, So, di yun na di jung is talking about direct cause. Di yun na di jeng is talking about indirect causation. Okay, God?

Or three.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Dunpa means it's talking about, it's indicating. It doesn't mean teacher here, okay? And ngupo means those things which are causes, okay?

[Speaker 2]
I see. Oh. Yay.

Wow. Yay. Wow.

[Speaker 1]
Wow. Who's gonna check you? Cap, come on.

De dag.

[Speaker 2]
Give me some mistakes, please.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. De dag gakpa.

De dag gakpa.

[Speaker 2]
Gagpa.

[Speaker 1]
Gagpa. De dag gakpa yang.

[Speaker 2]
De dag gakpa yang.

[Speaker 1]
Gagpa. I purposely read it as day, rather than day.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, thank you. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good.

[Speaker 2]
Hi, Mikey.

[Speaker 1]
He's in the mood. He said shut up and keep going. All right.

Also, it's talking about the stopping in the same terms. It's talking about the stopping in the same terms, meaning ngo gag and gyu gag. Oh, stopping the direct cause and indirect cause?

Yeah, direct stopping, meaning you stop the immediate cause, and then you immediately stop the thing. Or in the indirect stopping, you stop link number one, and eventually you stop link number 11. Free and so on.

Yeah, like that. Okay, so this other guy says, oh, those two lines, they're not talking about first principles. The first line is talking about direct causation and direct stopping, and the second line is talking about indirect causation and indirect stopping.

Okay. I don't really see how you can translate this sentence into what you just mentioned. Didak gagpa.

Oh, yeah, that's a good point. Those lines, they're still talking, right? Those are also talking about the gagpa in the same two terms.

In the same two terms, direct and indirect. Very difficult. All right.

All right, who's checking? Let me pick up somebody. Joy Chen, come on.

Wow, another person comes. Yeah. Shendak nare.

Shendak nare. Chik dang po ni. Gyun gi yu ne pa.

Ngun du song we. Dre bu ne pa yin no. Nyi pe ni gyu ke pe.

Dre bu ke pa yin no. She mau. Yeah, now here's another weird idea.

Okay. Shendak nare. Some more.

Another guy comes up and says, chik dang po here doesn't mean first word, it means the first sentence. It's talking about, if the... in a stream, talking about, if the cause goes on for some time first, then the result will go on for some time.

If the cause goes on for some time first, then the result will go on for some time. The song here is very difficult. I'm going to read it backwards, okay Sugeng?

Okay. The result goes on for some time because it possesses, in front of it, a cause going on for some time, and it's a flow. Okay?

The first of the two lines is talking about a flow. What's the flow? Well, the result going on for some time is connected to, in front of it, a cause going on for some time.

Okay? And then you can translate the second line. The second line that you call first principle is talking about, if the gyu kyes, then the drebu will kye.

If the cause starts, then the result will start. Yeah, so he's made it more complicated. He didn't say the result started from the cause.

He said, if the cause starts, then the result will start. And the line about yu and jung, right? That's just saying that the cause stays around for a while first, and then the result stays around for a while.

I'm guessing he feels more comfortable with staying being gyupa. The staying being existing? Yeah, existence.

It's not a single trigger. It's a period. One period leads to another period.

This is talking about the first line? Yeah. About the first line, right?

Wow. He feels more comfortable with gyupa should mean something's there. When you say existence, it means something's there for a while.

The cause stays for a while, and then the result stays for a while. That's why Lord Buddha started out with yu, which means to stay. Then he talked about if the cause starts, then the result will start.

That's the second line. Again, it's another theory by another guy. Everyone's trying to explain why Buddha gave two sentences.

Now, what do we got so far? One guy said, oh, the second sentence is already getting into the twelve links and the three parts, and we said no. Then somebody else said, oh, the first sentence is talking about direct causation, and the second sentence is talking about indirect causation.

We didn't fight that one yet, actually. Then somebody else said, no, the first one's talking about if this stops, that will directly stop. Then the second one's, if this stops, that will indirectly stop.

Okay. Here we go. Oh no, here's a long sentence.

Who's up? Word, did you do yet? Did you pick on him yet?

Not yet. Today. It's fun.

His wife told me it's fun. Wow, okay, good. Look, we're talking about how dependent origination gets started, sampar, okay?

When he's just starting his discussion of how things start, okay, through dependent origination, then what's the connection to be talking about staying already? Okay, this is Vasubandhu. Look, we're just trying to explain how samsara starts.

Why do you want to jump to staying before we talk about how it starts? Okay, jungwa sampa. We are talking about how it starts out.

Why should we be talking about how things stay after they start if we didn't talk about how they start yet? Okay, okay. ,LEN TE DE YANG SKYE BA KHO NA YIN NA NI, ,DON LA CHE DAG CI YOD, And if we're just talking about how things start, if they're both...

Okay, so if we cancel your idea about staying and they're both talking just about starting, then how can you say the two statements are different? If the first one is not talking about staying, right? And the guy says, okay, you're right.

He wouldn't be talking about staying yet because he didn't finish talking about starting yet. Got it? Are you agreed now the first line is talking about starting?

He says, yes. Then Vasubandhu says, well, then what the hell is the difference between the first line and the second line? If the first line is talking about SKYE BA and the second line talks directly about SKYE BA?

Okay. Got it? Yeah.

Okay, KHO NA means if the first line is not talking about staying yet and the other guy says, you know what? You're probably right. And Vasubandhu says, of course I'm right.

So, the first line then is just talking about starting, right? And the guy says, you're right. It's just talking about starting.

He wouldn't talk about staying yet because he didn't finish talking about starting yet. Okay. You agree?

Yeah, I agree. Then why the heck does the second line come if the first line is already talking about starting? Starting.

Then how can you say there's a PHYI THAG? How can you say there's any difference between the first line and the second line if the first line is already talking about starting? Starting.

Oh, okay.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good. Yeah, okay, good. KHO NA means if the first line...

If you agree with me and you say that the first line is not talking about staying yet, then what's it talking about? And the guy says, well, I guess it's talking about starting. And then he says, well, what's the point?

Then how can you say the first line is different from the second line because the second line talks about starting? Starting. Oh, wow.

Okay? Okay. Yeah, wow.

Okay. All right. ,GAL TE RGYUN KHYER PA DANG MED PA YIN NA Now, if you're talking about some kind of indirect causation, you know, first the seed turns into the tree, then the tree sprouts the fruit, and then the fruit produces this next seed for the next generation.

If you're talking about some kind of flow of starting and staying. ,GAL TE RGYUN KHYER PA DANG MED PA YIN NA If you're talking about the starting of the flow or the continuation, right? If you're talking about the starting of the continuation and the continuing of the continuation.

Okay? YIN NA? ,NGA MA SKYED PA SKYE BA YIN TE Okay.

Well, the flow is going to have to start, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And when you say things stay, first they have to start, right? ,SKYE BA YIN TE Things can only stay later. ,SKYE means later, okay?

Things can only stay later, ,SKYE MED PA if first they start, okay? Okay, so why would he be talking about staying of the result and the cause? Why would he be talking about a continuation of the cause and a continuation of the result without talking about how they start?

Okay, kyewa ma shepar, without specifically mentioning starting, kyepe du, the period during which they stay, chi chir shep, why would he be talking about that? If the first line is talking about some kind of continuation, okay? Then why would he start the sutra out with an explanation of staying before he treats starting?

[Speaker 2]
Okay, okay, okay. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, hey, you know, when I studied Abhidharma with my teacher for 12 years, there was two parts that I understood. And here's one of them, okay? And it's so grounding to get something you understand.

Okay, here we go.

[Speaker 2]
Please.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
What, we just started. Let's do something you understand.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I'm gonna do, I'm just gonna give it to you, okay? Okay. And if you want a big challenge.

[Speaker 2]
Ooh. Wow. How was that?

[Speaker 1]
Okay, do you know this famous thing in Shakespeare? To be or not to be? That's a question, everyone.

The child, he goes through the stages of life.

[Speaker 2]
The father is a man.

[Speaker 1]
No, he says the mewling, milk drinking leads to the child walking off to school with his satchel and leads to the hot, passionate soldier, leads to the middle-aged businessman, leads to the advanced middle-aged overweight guy. And then he becomes no ears, no eyes, no nose. And then the end of this sad story, odd story is everyone dies.

What's it called?

[Speaker 3]
Stages of life.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's a stage of the life. So I'm gonna challenge you, Sugeng. He starts talking about the stages of life, okay?

And why does he start talking about the stages of life? He's on the question of continuation, okay? Like the staying part of life.

And so he happens to mention the Buddhist version of the 10 stages of life, okay? And I went and got them for you from the 13th century. Here, it starts here, okay?

You see this mirror, mirror?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So we're just agreed to help you. Wow. You're gonna do the 10 stages of a human life.

Okay. You mean to translate for the next class? Yeah.

Wow. All right. Okay.

I mean, if you have a word, okay.

[Speaker 2]
The human dictionary.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, yeah. And by the way, it was a very corrupt wood carving and I fixed most of it for you. Oh, wow.

Okay. All right. Yay.

By the way, I don't say get through all 10, but start and don't stay up all night and just as many as you can do, okay? Start here at number one, okay? And if you can get word to help you, it's probably good.

Okay, sure. Yay. Go have some Japanese sushi, sashi, okay?

Thank you, Geshe-la. Yeah, don't worry. When we get to the links, it's definitely gonna be easier.

Yeah, thank you. But don't freak out, okay? No, I'm not.

It's very difficult and that's why no one touched this text for 16 centuries. Okay. All right.

Be a brave mixed nun. Yes. Okay.

Thank you, Geshe-la. Bye.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you, Geshe-la.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you very much. Hey guys, what I'm gonna share here on the screen is...