Бен Крамер — Книга 2: Драгоценность истинной мысли (Геше Йеше Вангчук о Дхармакирти), занятие 25

[Speaker 2]
Okay, I'm going to get out a picture of you and talk to Ezra.

[Speaker 1]
Hey Ezra, hey Ben. Hi Ezra. Wow, Ezra your hair is so long.

We should start a club. Ben's not invited. Oh, maybe his mic is off.

You got to turn your microphone on Ezra. Tell your dad to turn on the microphone. Hey Ben, you got to turn on your microphone.

Ezra.

[Speaker 2]
We don't hear you Ben. It doesn't say you're muted, but you are.

[Speaker 1]
Your speaker's a MacBook Pro. Madam O'Clock, could you say something to see if it's... Oh, you can't hear me either?

Oh, I didn't hear her either. Okay, so it's our side. I hear you, but I just hear Ben.

But you can't hear me.

[Speaker 2]
Hey Ezra, could you say something?

[Speaker 1]
Hey Ezra, can you say something? Speak in hand signals. Hey Tim, we need help.

We can't hear him. Oh Ezra, this one's a good one. Ready?

[Speaker 2]
It's good to see you Ezra.

[Speaker 1]
Hey, you were just teaching on this.

[Speaker 2]
Now we can't see you.

[Speaker 1]
There you are. Thanks Tim. Hey, now we hear you Ezra.

Look at that gap. Oh my goodness. He's got one big man tooth and one gap here.

You know that Tooth Fairy gives $100 nowadays. No, it does not. Not in Albuquerque.

Inflation knows no boundaries Ben, so sorry. No chance. Did you say pesos?

Yeah. Pesos, yeah. Thousand cents, did you say?

Hey Ben Kramer, you want to see a Chinese prostration? Here. Wow, look at that.

And I'm not sharing it with you, but I am going to send you the G coffee they gave me from the geese coffee. That's better. Yeah, it's expensive.

I have to do my work. Okay. Let them come to that meeting.

Ben, it was like a million years ago when we had your last class. Good homework Ben. I know, I felt that way too.

It's a deal. Come on, give me control of the screen here. I'm working on it.

We've angered my computer. Come on, we can do this. This is the chair that the boy shouldn't sit on.

I'm really trying earnestly. I'm having some Zoom issues. This is not helping.

[Speaker 2]
I'm trying.

[Speaker 1]
Oh my God, now look what we've done. Something like that. Nope, that's not going to cut it.

[Speaker 2]
Why? Why? Sorry, everybody.

[Speaker 1]
My normal controls here are not working. Okay. Well, we're going to have to.

You can make more money losing teeth than answering questions in class. Apparently. Yeah.

It turns out. Okay. I'm going to have to pull an extreme measure.

Pardon me one moment. Save it. Uh-huh.

Okay. Okay. Now, for some reason, my pinch to Zoom no longer works.

Okay. So here's what I'm going to do. Reshare.

This chair. Okay. Something like that.

Can we see this screen and only the screen and only the question?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Awesome. Okay. Let's try this way.

What did Master Dharmakirti learn from a non-Buddhist teacher in southern India? Give me the Tibetan and English for what it is he learned there. That's great.

Say again. Probably a little bit, but that's not what was emphasized. It was Hindu Tantra.

I think that's some combination of English and Sanskrit, but I want Tibetan and English. Hindu secret teachings in the non-Buddhist religions. Wonderful.

Tibetan would be this. I don't remember how they phrased it, I guess. Oscar's got it.

Of course he did. What did you say, Oscar? Yeah.

Right. Great. Right.

Yeah. The secret word. Yeah.

The secret words of the kids who hang out at the Ghats. What was the name of the teacher that he learned from Tibetan and Sanskrit? Oh, the player.

The player? That is English. That's good.

Which languages I asked from you guys, I keep tripping you up.

[Speaker 2]
Kumarila.

[Speaker 1]
Kumarila. Yeah, right. I just changed your settings.

Can we still hear me?

[Speaker 2]
Yes. Good.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. But by the way, there are a bunch of articles about this guy, and it seems like also the Hindu traditions claim that they debated together. And he was a teacher of the Mimansa school, according to the Hindu lineage.

Now, Choney Lama put him in the Vaishnavites, or the followers of Vishnu. But he's traditionally considered a teacher of the Mimansa school and has his own Wikipedia article and everything that includes him duking it out with Master Dharmakirti. We didn't cover this last time, so it's sort of a bonus question.

But Bhutan Rinpoche described a particular relationship between Shunnamalai and Dharmakirti that was not mentioned in Geshe Eshe Wangchuk's presentation. Arch nemeses? No, no, that seems to be coming up here soon.

Bhutan Rinpoche says Kumarila was his uncle, his maternal uncle. Oh, right. Yeah, sort of interesting.

So this is a very different version of the story. Yeah, sort of kind of fascinating. Great.

Yeah, you got this. You got that. We got this.

Cool. Why does our author mention the fat of a dog in his poetry? It's a cure in the same way as Dharmakirti going to a school, other school's teacher to learn their teachings is a cure for the Dharma.

Yeah, what's the same about it? You got to kill the dog to get the fat from it. Yeah, that's fine.

You have to do something distasteful. Yeah, right. Do something horrible to get a cure.

Yeah, like Nick, the word yucky also came to my mind. Yeah, but yes, right. Something like that.

What's the Tibetan term? Kisu? Yeah, right.

Yeah, good for you. Right. That wasn't a super common term, but I figured I got to put something in here for word.

Good. Yeah, cool. Dog fat.

Dog fat. Didn't know we'd be saying that today in my homework, did you? Maybe you did.

[Speaker 2]
Band name?

[Speaker 1]
Band name. Dog fat. Yeah.

Hey, interesting. What line divides the wise from the fools, according to our author's poetry? Whether or not they come to mixed nuts classes.

Yeah, totally. Not many. Just us fools here.

I mean, very few wise people in the world.

[Speaker 2]
It's kind of sweet.

[Speaker 1]
He doesn't specifically say that, but I think that's nice. You give away something you're going to lose anyway. Yeah, beautiful.

[Speaker 2]
Without hesitation.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Your body and only your possessions. Yeah, how beautiful.

Yeah, cool. What term does he use for the wise or foolish? K-Loon or something?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, right. K-Loon.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good for you. Smart kid. Cool.

Great. I have to now move over to my other working version of this. And I'm going to re-stare in that direction and try and refine.

Geshe-la, you didn't officially give me something, but I grabbed something that may be reasonable. Oh, let's see.

[Speaker 3]
We don't hear you, Geshe-la.

[Speaker 1]
If I ever give you guys something, just do the next part. Duh. Yeah, right.

Okay. That's what I went with. Oh, you would think.

Here we go. Let's try. Kumari-la.

Or go translate Major League Baseball statistics into Taiwanese. Oh, this is not it. I just grabbed the wrong one.

I think San Diego is doing pretty good. Let's try this. All right.

Come here. Come on. You can do it.

Oh, and I was uncertain, but that's not uncommon. Yeah, here we go.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Excuse me for eating, but I don't have any other time in the day when I can. No, not at all. I wouldn't...

I would... Tom here... I wouldn't use rumor because that implies something almost negative.

Okay. Talk. We say talk.

Tom means talk, actually. Okay. Or you decide something more poetic or...

Okay. I'll change it. I'll change it.

Okay. We must go travel like the wind. Yeah, nice.

As if they were carried by the wind, right? But that's the same thing. You said it well.

Like the wind. But when the news came to the teacher, Kumari-la, if you want to be poetic, you can say reach the ears of Kumari-la. Okay.

Okay. Yeah, and it's... It seems like his title is sometimes Teacher Kumari-la here, which is...

That's the present. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Well, I'll come back. I'll do this later.

I won't... Yeah, good. Nice.

I like the poison arrow struck his heart. That's correct. Your turn.

Burned with hatred. Nice. Nga gyal gyi rung nge ni lang.

Pride rose high as a mountain. Good. Tra tok gyi sa tong.

Ching, he was bound up in jealousy. Okay. And yi long long gyur.

Very good. I love the turmoil for long long. Nyi mi long.

It sounds just like us when we get upset at somebody.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I should say.

[Speaker 1]
He couldn't sleep. His food gave him no pleasure. Nice.

Yeah, good. Cho nyer gyi. What's nyer, by the way?

Nyer. Where nyer? Cho nyer.

Cho nyer. First word. First word next to last line.

First word. Oh, cho nyer. I don't know.

I found cho nyer as a phrase, so I just kind of accepted it as like, yeah, pissed off, as it were. Nyer, doesn't nyer mean like stuff, like the quartermaster's nyerpa? That's true, but it also means wrinkle.

And so cho nyer means you get these heavy wrinkles here. Right, right. Yeah, right.

That's a way to say he got pissed off. Between his eye wrinkles appeared. That's right, yeah.

I'm sorry. Actually, that was specifically, I guess now I recall, is that it specifically talked about an angry face. Yeah, and that's how traditionally Tanka painters paint angry.

Cool. Outlined here. Like fierce deities and stuff.

Cho nyer dupe. So that dupe means his eyebrows got smushed together and made... Oh, dupe, they were joining.

Yeah. Drakpa go... Interesting.

Namgyur drakpa, yeah, very rough appearance. The namgyur means appearance, right? Or, okay.

Go ne. Pu dang chu ma. Yo ko nam ma.

Yeah. Yeah, out of those emotions. He said to his wife, children, and students.

Okay, the verb comes in the next section. Oh, okay, okay. He actually recited, I think it's two verses of poetry, to his kids and his wife.

So our verb is here. He may write, is the verb to this paragraph. He spoke in poetry.

Well, shoot. Okay, cool. All right.

Okay, I'll fix it. Thank you. Oh, I didn't do the poetry.

I'm sorry. That's fine, that's fine. No, you did a good job.

Dude, it's quite good. Thank you. Let me see if I can find your text.

I don't think I have it up yet. Hang on. Stop that, stop that.

Hang on, I'm getting there. Okay. Mr. Big. Okay, here we go. Come on. Your book is long.

It kind of ties up my words. Yeah. Okay.

Okay, you had your last class on the third, I think. Yeah. Long time ago, as Utpala pointed out.

Yay, here we go. Let me do one thing first. Oh, come on, honey bunny.

Okay. All right. I'm going to get rid of this.

I'm going to bring you guys back up here. Okay, good. Okay, please read his poetry.

Nick wants to check in. He told me. Thank you, Nick.

I'm not sure I understand. Read. Okay.

All right. I'm going to read the poem. Yeah, good.

Draw. What's the draw? Draw out of anger.

Fierceness. Wrath. Oh, no.

Having heard. I'm sorry. Sorry, wrong draw.

Isn't it an enemy? Yeah, draw. Oh, wrong, another wrong draw.

Drawing is enemy, yeah. Oh, my enemy has done something. He drew as a yokpo.

Oh, he pretended to be a servant. Yeah, he falsified himself. Yokpo.

Yeah. In my own core. In my own circle, in my own retinue.

Yeah, in my own immediate circle of students, he lied and he pretended to be a servant. Ten also means servant. And he carried all of our song sticks.

Yeah, he heard all of our secret words, all of our secret teachings. He carried the stone.

[Speaker 2]
Carry.

[Speaker 1]
Carry, carry means carry. See, he carried all the brahman secret words, those very precious things. He carried them away.

Tru means escape or run away. Tru means run away. So he grabbed our tantras and he ran away.

Ran off. This is the same sun in the third line as in Seiji's text. Or a weapon.

Yeah, what's semo? The point, the point of a blade, the point of a weapon. You know, so-tung.

So, yeah, I mean, coming at me, he stabbed me. He's pointing our own sword at us. I mean, his tenpa means he's just, he's showing the tip of our own sword towards us.

He's going to stab us with our own tantras. Yeah. Kormachak is a very, very beautiful, strong, tasty idiom in scripture, which means there's not a shred of a doubt.

It just means there's absolutely no doubt about it. He's going to jump, rang lu. Oh, he's going to destroy our system.

Yeah, he's going to smash our system. No doubt. He learned our tantras so he could fight our tantras and we're in trouble.

He's very concerned. All right. Sounds like he's got an accurate read of the situation.

Dharwa means to sharpen a blade or a knife, okay? So we better, we better, we better dharwa the sun of our vikta. We better sharpen the blade of our reasoning.

Nope, no answer. Yeah, we better sharpen up our brains. We better sharpen up our brains, okay?

With what degree of speed? Chaldu. Chaldu, like immediately, quickly.

Yeah, immediately. We got to get our wits together, okay, right away. And we'll go to Gagaguha.

Yeah, you told me to look it up. It's not going well, but I'm working on it. I made an executive decision that I wouldn't bother with a single Sanskrit place name in your book.

And it's you. He went to Gagaguha. Gagaguha.

Sounds like a baby talk. Yeah, I think I'm going to answer that. We got to go to Gagaguha.

So we can be the tsundar. So we can be the... The debate pair.

The debate. Yeah, of our enemy. So we can be the opponent who faces our enemy, okay?

If we cannot pambad arpadu... Yeah. Yeah.

Pambad arpadu, I don't know, like... If we can't defeat the other guy? The other guy.

Oh, the other guy, padu. If we don't beat the other side in this battle. Mang shi means...

Mang, this spelling of mang, high tone, right? Mang means a cornerstone. And ten means tenpa, and okul means natso.

Us guys. Us guys. Yeah, us guys is cornerstone of our teaching system.

This shipa comes from njitpa, njitpa. We're afraid of this guy. No, it's going to be destroyed, or destroy, yeah.

Yeah, we're left like... It means nigh at hand. It is imminent.

Our ruin is at hand. The very cornerstone of our teaching is going to be smashed. And the building will fall down, okay?

Yeah, yeah. It's fun. Okay, do you want to pick somebody in the audience who can read and you pick on them?

And I have a... Kramer, should I take food number one, or food number two?

[Speaker 2]
Ha, ha, ha.

[Speaker 1]
Wow. I... Take the one you want.

Who knows, huh? And the other one goes to Huan Hasan, okay? Just say one.

Oh, poor Huan, it's not fair. Is this number one or number two? It's number two.

God. Ha, ha, ha. Here's number two.

Sorry, boss. You did this, I didn't do this. Ha, ha, ha.

Yeah. Ha, ha, ha. You're a bad man.

You have destroyed the cornerstone of my teaching. That's right, baby, I'm a bad man. Okay, please read.

Oh, who's reading? Oh, Pachi. Oh, Pachi.

Oh, unless you're translating, but you're nodding your head like you're stuck with it. Oh, good. Okay.

I have no idea, but where should I start? Kishi Maiko always told me to, like, aim for the middle letters when in doubt. That was my first advice.

You're Pachi, shame on you. You're reading, man. I'm reading, or he's reading, I'm sorry.

Oh, I would say he's reading, if he can. Oh, right, okay, okay. Give it a try.

Just make noises, it's okay. It's good luck. We do it, don't sweat it.

Yes, wow, good, great.

[Speaker 3]
Amazing.

[Speaker 1]
Yes. Wow.

[Speaker 2]
Pa.

[Speaker 1]
Nga.

[Speaker 2]
Nga.

[Speaker 1]
Nga. Nga. Nga.

Nga. Nga. Nga.

Chi. Chi ne. Chi ne.

Chi ne. Uh-huh, this next part's important, because it's not today. I think your son is helping.

I hear that. You can say anything here, it doesn't matter. We don't really seem to care what that means.

[Speaker 3]
Ben, Ben, I don't know that.

[Speaker 1]
Hi, hi, how are you, well done. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Amazing, oh my God, Pachi, incredible.

Cinderella story, out of nowhere. First time, beginner's luck. Okay, he said those two verses, okay?

Yes. And he collected together nabdja of his core. Wow, 500 of them.

Yeah, and each one of those 500 was kepar darpa. Oh boy, they were famously smart. Famous wise guys like you.

And chi ne, he brought them along with him. And I think chi is an ancient verb for wind. They went to the big tsong du.

The big party, the big party at Gagagugu. Yeah, and still, tsong du means gathering in Tibetan, or meeting, okay? There are endless meetings in the monastery among the administrators.

You want to go to tsong du? And no, just right here, okay. Okay, Mr. Ben, pick on somebody else, Pachi. Okay, let's see who's next on my screen. Bobby Hags. All right.

Yul Day, Gyalpo, Yul, what? We don't know now. He said yes, that was amazing.

Truma. Gyalpo, Truma? Why not?

Yeah, it's a situation. I do. La shunu rope, dak dang chu drak ni.

Good, good. Gyalte, tsopa, ne gyal na, pe, zope. Great.

Ne. Good, ne. Gyal na.

Good. Chu drak na. Na.

Nga or na? The first one, nga.

[Speaker 2]
Lam du tong shik. Good. Gyalte, chuki, drak pa, gyal na, gyalpo, dak na, gyalpu.

[Speaker 1]
Gyalpo, you got it.

[Speaker 3]
Dak na, lam du tong par.

[Speaker 1]
Tong war.

[Speaker 3]
Tong war, zot che, zok?

[Speaker 1]
No, it's. Zot che.

[Speaker 2]
Ghe.

[Speaker 1]
What's that last one? Ghe. Ghe.

Yeah. Good, okay. Boss, while we're here, I did look this up and the chumaripu, which, again, it's not going well, but it's an ornament, which I didn't know that we use sometimes in the carving.

It's a little ornament with circles and a line between it and a circle on top, which is why I did that, but is that, is that you're thinking that maybe they put that in for a, what you call it, a visarga? It could be. I have no idea, to tell you the truth.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
You could find a carving and try to figure it out. I did. It's pretty brutal.

I mean, the carving, that's what I'm saying. The carving is like an ornament. It's like a circle and a line in between and a circle underneath.

[Speaker 2]
And I think this.

[Speaker 1]
I'm guessing for the rough breathing symbol in Sanskrit, khar, at the end, the drukh, like, similar. I don't know. Either way, maybe you can find the king's name and you can go backwards from there.

By the way, pu could mean putra, okay? Okay, yeah. Son of?

Yeah, son of Drumari, yeah. King, which is somebody. Uh-huh.

He was spoken to by Shunurupa. Uh-huh, by Kumariva. By that, yeah.

Dr. Chudagni Madana Tsuk. Yeah, me and Dharmakirti are going to rumble. We're going to debate.

We're going to debate. Khyelpe ifu'i tsepa enge gyelma, name is Nar. Nar.

Okay, yeah, if we fight and I win, yeah? Yeah, then Chudak, you should towa him to Nalam. You should towa him to Nalam.

Nalam means five paths. I looked it up, it's Chiwa. Oh, five paths means kill him?

Yeah, you should send him to his death. And I'm curious if you can find out why the path of five. Yeah.

In the ancient language. Ashola. Yep.

I think it means like the fifth of the five stages of life.

[Speaker 2]
Could be. Yeah, after Sanyasi.

[Speaker 1]
I'll look it up, but I think it's the fifth. It's like maybe, you know, et cetera. Yeah, that's interesting.

It totally makes sense. It totally makes sense. I would look for Pancha Marga or something like that.

Yeah, okay. I really don't know. I don't know this word, so.

And I couldn't find it any place. Anyway, it means that you should send him, you should execute him, okay? Gyalte chukyadapa gyalma.

Okay. Yeah, but if he wins. If he wins, the gyalpo should Nalam me.

Oh boy, then the king should kill me. Yeah, you should execute me.

[Speaker 2]
That's it.

[Speaker 1]
That's what Chandrakirti's teacher advised to the king. Wow, okay. Is Dharmakirti going to accept this wager?

Here we go. Who's going to read, Dr. Bin? Oh, let's see.

Rebepa. Whoa, great. Don't use the Hollywood accent, okay?

[Speaker 2]
I'll try not to.

[Speaker 3]
Lopan dakmi chenpo tramsay de dakla shintu nyingtsewa kongne shunnu roba gyalna dakse kyang rungchik gar dzik chik.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, then the dakmi chenpo. What's that, Bin? That awesome dude, the great and awesome dude, the master, Dharmakirti.

He had nyingje or nyingtse to those tramsas. Oh, he had compassion for them, for the Brahmins. Here, gong means deep within his thoughts.

He thought, I can't bear to see them die. Then he said, if shunnu roba gyals. Yeah, if shunnu roba is victorious.

Dakse kyang rung. Dakse kyang rung. Oh, then what?

I'll take pity on him, I'll have... What is it? It's fine for you guys to kill me.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He'll kill me if he wins. Yeah. If he wins, I'm okay with it.

You can kill me. Chi dak dzok, do whatever you like. Just follow your own heart.

If you want to kill me, that's fine. But, but, don't say dak gyalma. Yeah, right, but if I win.

But if I win, that Brahmin and his disciples, those Brahmins, chiklang nupa madze. Madze, madzu, is imperative. This doesn't mean kosha.

It means do, imperative.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Nupa medpa dzun. Yeah, don't hurt them. Yeah, don't hurt a hair on their head, please.

Yeah. Okay. If I lose, yeah, you can kill me.

If they lose, be nice. Yeah. Okay.

That's Dharmakirti. I'm going to move this whole verse down. Do you have somebody else you want to read, Ben?

Oscar? Wow. Can you do it?

I know sometimes it's late and he's trying to be quiet. He's translating. Oh, sure.

Jigme? I'm trying to say when I don't want to answer something. Yeah.

Cool. Okay, Jigme, cool. Okay.

Dramtse Shedang Wang Songtak Chinchom.

[Speaker 2]
Lopun Nyingje Drowamalu Kyob. Nyomong Kyondang Nyingje Yuntang Gyi. What?

[Speaker 1]
Kangla.

[Speaker 2]
Good. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Kangla.

[Speaker 2]
Dangdang Kangla Gu Udo.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah, great. Okay.

Fine. When the dramtse gets shedang. Yeah, when he gets mad, hateful.

And when he wang to songwa under the shedang. Yeah, when he's under the sway of hatred. He loses himself to the anger.

He will jump, dock and shin. Oh, yeah, he'll beat up himself and others.

[Speaker 2]
Destroy both.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, he'll destroy himself and other people. Whereas, Lopun Nyingje. Yeah, the master's compassion.

Wants to Kyob Drowamalupa. Yeah, wants to protect as many beings as there are. Nice, nice.

Every living being. Nyomong Kyon. That Kyon of Nyomong.

The, I'm sorry, the Kyon. Kyon Monduk. Problem?

Oh, yeah, the problem of negative emotions. Yeah, and the yun dens of Nyingje. And the good qualities of compassion.

Yeah, now if I gave you a choice to dangwa towards one of them, and kupa towards the other one, well, which would you choose? Yeah, right. If you were going to, yeah, respect or not respect one to dangwa.

Dangwa means get pissed off. Kupa means pay respects. And this is a very common construction where they say there's hatred and there's compassion.

Now you choose which one you would fall down to and you choose which one is dumb. They'll often have this construction. Which one would you be angry at and which one would you honor between the Brahman's behavior and the master's behavior?

That's all, okay? Gyul u to, this is the imperative of dawa. Oh, yeah, you got to see it?

Come, come, look at the difference. Come, see the difference. Yes.

Which is worthy of your honor and which is of your dislike, whose behavior, okay? Okay, who's, this is, how about Gyul u to? Guys, somebody mute.

We got it, it's fixed. All right, Gyul u to, would you read? Are you available?

I'll try to. She had COVID, how are you feeling? Oh, of course.

[Speaker 3]
I'm feeling better. As you can tell, my voice is still a little funky, but I'm here. I feel pretty well done with it.

[Speaker 1]
Your voice sounds weighty.

[Speaker 3]
Gang la sem kyi ren chen dam pa de. Kyi pa de yi ku la chak sel lo. Gang la nu pa kye kyang den drel wa.

De we jung ne de la kyap su chi yo.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, okay. Let's go to the second line, it's more sexy. I bow down to the ku of that kye pa.

So the body of that? Person. Okay, that being, other one, yeah.

Whose sim is ren chen dam pa. Whose mind is a holy jewel. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of cool.

He says, since I can't, the mind is not physical, I'll bow down to the body that has that kind of attitude in it. I'll bow down to that body. It's kind of beautiful.

But there's people walking around who if you nupa them, they will return dewa. If you hurt them, they will give you love, or they will offer you joy or happiness. They'll try to make you feel good.

Yeah, like the jung ne of dewa. They're like Akhara, right? Yeah, they're like the source of bliss here, or the source of joy, the source of happiness.

I bow down to the source of happiness, those people who return injury with love. I go to them, yeah, for refuge. I go for refuge to them, okay, but cool.

Yeah, yes. I got to split this one. Nah, if you want to really torture somebody, give me this one, Ben.

Yeah, Alex laughed really hard when you said that. All right.

[Speaker 3]
Dene sugyel nang dey luklan jukgyung yang yin shak ne chi nang gi chuk tan talad sud.

[Speaker 1]
Let's stop there. Let's stop there and read that much, Ben, and then we'll continue with the rest. Okay, sure.

Sugyel, the gyel is verb. Whoever gyels this debate. Yeah, whoever wins this debate.

Yeah, then the other should juk to his luk. Yeah, they're going to have to join or enter that one's system. Yeah, and they place the wager, okay?

And the gyel means where they would have to enter. You see what I mean? Yen shak is a verb that means to place a wager.

Yen shak, right. And they started the tsultpa chi nang gi dukta. Yeah, they started to debate the, yeah, I mean, inner and outer, meaning Buddhist or non-Buddhist philosophical systems.

Yeah, and that's kind of an interesting debate because they both agreed to debate the other person's system also. Yeah. Uh-huh.

Then, Alex, let's go. Tumba.

[Speaker 3]
Tumba shun nu rol parang gi tumong ma yin pey dam cha nga gya de dat re re lalo punchu ki trak pe nu che kyi rikpa nga gya re.

[Speaker 1]
Stop there, good. Ben, tumba shun nu rupa. Yeah, the teacher, Kumarila.

Kumarila, he had dam cha and how many? He had nga gya of them. He had 500 reasons or positions.

Yeah, he had 500 special positions that were tumong ma yin pa to himself. Oh, that were, that contradicted himself? No, tumong ma yin pa means special.

Oh, of his own, unique to him. He had his own special take. Logical weapons that he had never shown anybody and they were, he had figured them out.

But for each one, lopun chu trak had a nu che to each dam cha, nga gya. Oh, he had 500 ways to destroy each of the 500 special positions of Kumarila? I guess it's 25,000, you see what I mean?

Good reasons to fight each argument of the rock. Thank you. Okay, 500 per 500, yeah, for Ben.

And let's go, Alex. Nam chak.

[Speaker 2]
Nam chak, ki tuk tar, pa pa.

[Speaker 1]
Tok tar.

[Speaker 2]
Tok tar, pa pa, shun nu. Pa pa, shun nu ropa dam cha nam. Chak dar, chuk ki, kung po, lung gi, gyerwa, tar sung, nye re.

[Speaker 1]
Good. You guys know nam chak by now, I hope. It's a kind of lightning.

It strikes out of nowhere. Yeah, it's that lightning with the, they think it was made of steel with a diamond tip. Okay.

Nam chak. Nam chak. Okay, they thought that's why, they thought lightning bolts had diamond tips on them, and that's why they could break trees.

So, and that they themselves were made of electric steel. Okay, so an electric steel diamond tip, nam chak, tok tar, pop, pop in the sky. Oh, okay, it burst in the sky?

Yeah, as if one of those diamond tip steel lightning bolts had fallen, had, I don't know. Struck? Yeah, struck him.

The dam chas of shun nu ropa. Yeah, his positions, his special positions. Oh, his special.

Chak dar means rubbish on the street. It means rubbish. Like his work is in Manhattan on the street, okay?

Okay. Chua means from among them. Pumbo, like a, like a, like a pumbo chak dar.

Yeah, like a, yeah, a heap of rubbish. Like a pile of newspapers, discarded newspapers. Yeah, they were carried by the wind.

They were carried away on the wind. His great 500 arguments were carried away like cigarette smoke on the wind or something like that. Kyer te dar sum le.

Then, Alex, you got to finish, shun nu ropa.

[Speaker 2]
Shun nu ropa ma wei go tsum, te yid jikpa dang shunpar gyur rang. Shun par.

[Speaker 1]
Shun par, gyur rang gi dam chala sum, ni yung te. Chung te. So Ben, shun nu ropa.

His ma wei go tsum. Yeah, by the way, when you want to say shut up to somebody in Tibetan, these are the only words that my students remember. You can say ka tsum.

Say it, practice. Ka tsum. Shai ma ka tsum.

Okay, never say it. It's very impolite. Thanks.

But his ka tsum, he got... Yeah. Yeah, and he became all jikpa, jik sto.

Oh, he got scared. Yeah, and shunpa means he got despondent. He got depressed.

He got brokenhearted or something like that. Shunpa. And then he started to have som ni about his own dam chalas.

Som ni is an ancient word for tetsam. For tetsam, yeah, right. He started to doubt his own positions.

He started to doubt his own philosophy that he spent his whole life with. Kind of depressing. Who's next, Dr. Ben?

We have one minute. Yeah, we can do it. Oh boy, let's see.

Ben, how about you read it? Let's go fast. Okay.

chak tar saway dam chak ngap gyal la ji go gang gyi sun jen mi nukpe mi nukpa chuk gi drakpe rik lam nam chak de lak me chongpay dak mi yi muk gyur Yeah, this is that Hindu teacher. He says, chak tar saway dam chak ngap gyal. I used to have 500 positions that were as strong as steel.

ji go gang gyi sun jen mi nukpa Nobody, no debater in the world was ever able to destroy them. Then here comes chuk gi drakpe. His rik lam is like a nam chak.

Yeah, not like a lightning bolt. His path of reasoning. And dar without the S means a bolt, or a spear or an arrow.

You can say spear. His diamond-tipped iron bolt lightning spear has chongpa on my dam chak. It's chak tomepa, chak me.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Every one of them with nothing left over. And I feel yi muk. Oh, yi muk.

I mean, so, yeah, like in darkness? Yeah, I'm bummed out. Yi muk means I'm bummed out.

I'm sort of sad about life right now. Probably went over and hugged him or something. Reminds me of that debate in Canton.

What's the date, nine? Nine, yeah. All right.

What kind of fool is up next, Nate? That'd be me. The foolishest.

Chief, fool and chief. How much time we got? The limpa-est, nine minutes.

Wow, that's enough to build a new university. All right, thank you. Thank you, Geshe-la.

Thanks, thanks everybody. That was fun. Thank you, Geshe-la.

Yeah, that was fun. Let's go back. Okay.