Классика Алмазного огранщика: Верхний Срединный путь — Великие книги мудрости, занятие 42

[Speaker 2]
Nithyanandeshwara Samaarambhaama Nithyanandeshwari Madhyamaam So I think actually Nick's text is probably the most difficult, and it took me a long, long time to work on it, but I think we're okay now.

[Speaker 1]
And I told Nick this morning, interesting, Gautamji seems to speed up in about three or four pages, he's going to start skimming through this text pretty fast. So there's hope, okay. I think when you get to those later sections, you feel kind of let down, like, oh, he hasn't confused me for three pages.

Ben's text was like that. I feel almost guilty now, because it's so understandable. So anyway, here we go.

I'm at Nipala, is that okay? Wait. Yeah, we're going backwards one sentence, okay?

Yeah, and I went back and found the Nipa for you, and number two, it just says number two, right? And in Tibetan, they rarely identify what's number two. So he said, the second section from above, I went and got it for you.

It's a shen gi lug la nyam de, topa mi te pala. In the other people's system, it would be incorrect to say you could achieve nirvana, okay? According to their ideas.

And inside of that, we have two sections, dorten and geshe.

[Speaker 2]
A brief explanation and an extensive explanation.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so we've reached the expanded explanation of why, if the lower school's idea of emptiness is correct, you could not have nirvana. And we're going to discuss that in two parts, hlak che nyam de and hlak me nyam de. Nirvana with and without remaining there.

Yeah, nirvana with something left over and nirvana without something left over, okay? So first we're going to show why, if their ideas about emptiness are correct, you could not have nirvana with something left over. And then we're going to show why you couldn't have something with nothing left over, okay?

All right, go on.

[Speaker 2]
So I start with Dampo. Dampo ni. Dampo ni, kyewa se to shepa ni.

Maw pe kyewa ni, tsam mi jorwa la, gongpa yin ki, tad har ki, phung phong mi kyewa la, chupa ma yin no shena.

[Speaker 1]
And it gets hard right away, okay? It gets just tough hard right away. Now, the other guy, this is the other guy's opinion.

We're starting with the other guy's opinion. And he says, when the scriptures say, kyewa se to, which means, birth is finished. Kyewa se to, birth is finished.

It's talking about the fact that you will not have to nyingtsam jorwa. Yeah, you will not have to cross into a new birth, mongpa, in the future, okay? When the text says, birth is finished, growing is finished, it means you will not have to take a rebirth in the future.

But, la, that's what it's gongpa.

[Speaker 2]
That's what it's real meaning is.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, but it doesn't refer, this ki is the disjunctive, but it doesn't refer to tadhar, the phungphos or mi kyewa.

[Speaker 2]
They just go away.

[Speaker 1]
No, but what's it mean? They're not starting. Yeah, you guys, you Madhyamika guys, you're trying to say when the Buddha says, mi kyewa, which means, not grow, you think it means, nothing ever grows.

But that's not what it means. What it means is, in the future, you will not grow into a new birth, okay? Big difference, right?

So they say, when the Buddha said, things don't grow, he meant you can reach a state where you no longer have to grow a new body. But you Madhyamika guys, you think when Buddha said, don't grow, it means today, right now, the baby's not growing inside the urine, okay? Something's not growing, you know?

Okay, got it? Difference of opinion of what's grow, okay? And here we go.

Detta yena.

[Speaker 2]
Detta yena. Nikab tena. Lhak che kyang mi kye de.

[Speaker 1]
Who's talking now? If it were that way, who's talking? Yeah, our side, Nagarjuna is saying, okay, if it were that way, and the Buddha was just referring to future birth and not to the impossibility of growth itself, then lhak che kyang mi kye de.

Yeah, you could never have a nirvana where you have something left over. So first we're going to pick on nirvana with something left over, and then we're going to pick on nirvana with nothing left over. We don't have the Sanskrit.

So Nick's text has ... We have some of the Sanskrit because it appeared in other books, and we don't have the original Sanskrit of this book, but we have pieces. So we're putting in the pieces where they come, but we don't have all the pieces, okay?

So please go ahead. Just translate it so far. It doesn't make sense, but translate it.

[Speaker 2]
Kelte?

[Speaker 1]
Kelte?

[Speaker 2]
For example?

[Speaker 1]
If the pumbos didn't got, if the body and mind of a person don't stop, you could say you're nyoma, you could stop your mental afflictions, but you would not nyong-ngedne.

[Speaker 2]
Achieve nirvana.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? So that's all. It's kind of cryptic.

I'll say it again. If the parts of a person don't stop, then you could stop your negative emotions, but you still wouldn't reach nirvana. We don't know what that means exactly yet, okay?

Please go ahead. Yeah, stop there. That's a good place to stop.

Dolen? Sutra says, and by the way, we're going to have a sutra from Shariputra.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, right.

[Speaker 1]
And it says, dunyadhimalupapam.

[Speaker 2]
I've given up these various kinds of suffering.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you give up all these kinds of suffering. When it says that, it's talking about tatargipumbamike. Now my heaps aren't starting.

The heaps you have right now are not starting. The minded body you have right now, in the next moment of today, don't grow. Don't start.

But, samne malupapamne nupaypardu. Up to the time you rid yourself of all of those negativities.

[Speaker 2]
What's this kind of sam?

[Speaker 1]
Kevalasam gong.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, it is the meaning?

[Speaker 1]
It's meant to refer to. So, it refers to the not growing of Aaron's baby right now. Which is, you know, not true in a normal sense.

All the way up to the time when you give up all suffering permanently. So, nothing grows from this moment when you're studying this book up to the time that you become an arhat. All that time, nothing grows.

Okay, that's our position. They say nothing grow means after you die, you become an arhat, you don't have to grow again. That's what not grow means.

What's the whole premise of this book by Nick Arjuna? Proving that the Buddha was talking about emptiness all along. Which me and Nick were theorizing.

There's a way to interpret the third turning of the wheel according to the second turning of the wheel, which means there's only two turnings of the wheel. If the third turning of the wheel is not the minority school, but it's the middle way school, then there's only two turnings of the wheel. But if Nagarjuna is correct in this text, there's only one turning of the wheel.

And all the lowest teachings Buddha gave were meant to be interpreted in the higher school, as higher schools.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, next sentence. Okay, next sentence.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, If you take not growing to refer only to not being reborn in the future. If you take those words of the sutra to only referring to in the future, you will not be reborn, okay? Which is whose position?

The other guy's, okay. Then why does the sutra go on to say, di le sepa shen mi she so, you will never know another life? You see, if the first part of the sentence, which said there will be no more kyewa, there is no more kyewa.

If that's referring to future life birth, and not to moment by moment not growing, then why does the next part of the sutra talk about you will not have to take another birth? Why does he repeat himself? You see what I mean?

Got it? If when Buddha said things don't grow, he meant in the future life, if you get rid of your negative emotions, you won't have to take rebirth. If you're correct, and he was not talking about moment to moment not growing, then why in the sutra does the next line say, and you won't have to take a rebirth?

Why does he repeat himself? No, because he says, and you also won't have to take a rebirth.

[Speaker 2]
He repeated himself. It can't be true, because he doesn't repeat himself.

[Speaker 1]
She mi she so so so. Therefore, it's incorrect, mi te, to talk about ending kyewa only with regard to future heaps. Okay?

Only with regard to future heaps. It's incorrect to apply that word, kyewa, to that meaning, kyewa se, finishing your kyewa, the finishing of kyewa. The wrong look, our own system, is that finishing birth means it was never growing in the first place.

Birth has been finished dumane, since forever. Nothing ever grows. That's what we say that no birth means.

They think no birth means in your next life you won't be reborn. We say no birth means nothing's growing right now without your seeds. Without your seeds.

Got it? Okay. Now he's going to incorporate, now he's going to incorporate the root text.

Now he's going to actually gloss the root text. Notice the bold. The bold words are the root text.

Okay, here we go. Go ahead.

[Speaker 2]
...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. ... If in the future, okay, if in the future, that body and mind of the guy who achieved Dharha, right, which are self-existent, couldn't stop, okay, wouldn't stop, then how could you say just because he got rid of his negative emotions they're going to stop?

Because they can't stop because they're self-existent. Even your idea that the body and mind are going to stop in the future is wrong because they can't stop now either. Why?

Because they're not coming from seeds. And there's nothing feeding them. They exist outside by themselves.

Seeds can run out. Seeds can dry up. You can change your seeds.

But if things exist out there without seeds, you couldn't even lose your body when you die. Okay, that's us. Forget this future life.

You're not going to have a body and mind. You can't lose them because they exist out there and they don't, they're not going to get less when the seeds run out. Because they don't come from seeds.

They exist out there on their own. If they come from seeds, you can change the seeds. They can wear out.

So even your idea that not born means not future born, okay, after you die, forget it. Because according to you, that our body and mind can never die because they're not fed by seeds. They exist by themselves.

So even your idea of what no birth means is ridiculous. That's another reason why our idea of no birth is correct.

[Speaker 2]
Got it? The last moment of the stream would have to be a cause thing with no result.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. And so, nyangen le depar tompa mingyur The guy could never achieve nirvana because he could never get rid of his mortal body because his mortal body would never change because his mortal body wasn't created by seeds because his mortal body existed out there by itself. So you're also bullshit.

Your no birth is also bullshit. Don't call us a liar. Don't say our no birth is bullshit.

Your no birth is bullshit. Okay, sorry. Then he quotes a scripture.

Okay, here we go. For as long as you hold on to the body and mind, you will hold on to that body and mind as being me. Self-existent me.

As long as you hold to a body and mind that do grow from their own side, then you are holding on to me and you will suffer because that's the first link of the wheel of life. Jigta. Got it?

Now, we're going to have it. I'm going to give it to you in a second. Okay, here we go.

Let's go to his comment on it, though. Phakcheke. Now, that goes on to another line, okay?

Let's not go there yet. I'm going to go show you where his quotation came from. Where he said, as long as you're holding on to the body and mind, you are holding on to a me and you will never be enlightened.

You will never get free, okay? Where does that come from? Here.

Okay? Which is what?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He's quoting another book by Nagarjuna to shoot the guy. Okay? Don't give me this stuff that no birth means future no birth.

No birth means moment by moment no birth, okay? Why? According to you, you couldn't have a future birth anyway because the body would stay forever because it's not dependent on seeds, okay?

Got it? And then he said, by the way, as long as you think you have a body and mind, you're going to have the first link of dependent origination. You're going to be suffering forever anyway.

Okay? Don't tell me your body is going to stop. If you think you have a body and mind, it's not going to stop.

Okay, got it? And now, listen. This quotation said, che sok.

[Speaker 2]
Another such quotation.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so if it's only two lines, maybe he wants Nick to go make a footnote with four lines because he said, dot, dot, dot, because his listeners knew this verse by heart. So let's go look at the rest of the verse. Here it is.

ji si pungpo dzun yu pa, de se de la ngan dzun yu, ngan dzun yu ne yang me te, de le yang ni gyur yin, Boom! He killed the other guy. Okay, here it is.

ji si pungpo dzun yu pa, Here. As long as you hold to your body and mind as existing out there, by itself, then, for that long, you will hold to me. You will hold to me.

And, here's the next two lines that were dot, dot, dot. Good. If you do hold to me, you get le.

You create karma. And as long as you have karma, you have kye wa. He nailed the guy.

Okay. Who said that? Nagarjuna.

Okay. Yeah. You say no future birth, but as long as you keep thinking about the word birth the way you guys are thinking about it, Nagarjuna says you're going to have birth.

Because you're going to make karma. Because you make karma by holding to me. Because you hold to me when you hold to your body and mind.

Okay. So, don't tell me no birth. Don't even tell me no birth refers to future no birth because the way you're going, you're going to have a future birth.

Got it? Because Nagarjuna...

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It's kind of mean. Yeah. It's kind of mean.

They already don't like Nagarjuna and you feed them Nagarjuna. Now, this next sentence is a real typical G-Y-L-T-U-B-J-A-B-I-T-C-H, okay? And this key, okay?

So, key. This key, everything before the key is the subject of the sentence. By me was gone to the store.

Okay? Typical Tibetan syntax. Okay?

By me, to the store, was gone. Where's the verb? At the end of the sentence.

Subject, object, verb. By me, to the store, was gone. And so, this is a really nasty sentence.

Nick's got to go down, down, down, down, down, down, down. Pass the quotation to the word trunk. Okay?

Trunk. Okay? So that's the verb.

It's weird. You have a subject, okay? Then you have a four-line quotation, then you have some more stuff, and then you get the verb.

Okay? So, let's break it down for you in English order. Let's do it in English order, okay?

If you agree to all this stuff, okay? If you agree to a nirvana that exists on its own, then how do you interpret? Chi tar tong.

At the end. How do you interpret this other line? How do you interpret this verse?

Okay? Got it? So this sentence stretches across three paragraphs.

And you got to know. You got to know it. Okay?

I'll say it again. Look, if you believe this stuff, that, you know, when you reach nirvana with remember, it exists by definition from its own side, then how do you interpret this other quotation? How are you going to interpret this other quotation?

And we don't know the other quotation. Let's go to the other quotation first. It's what we talked about last time.

It is. Because I like it. It's sexy.

Okay? Let's go look at this other quotation. Okay?

And then we can go back to the question and how you're going to interpret it. Right. But let's go to the quotation first.

Okay. And it's kind of, it's really sexy. Okay?

Here we go. She-jay-denee. A hundred bucks to Nick if he can read these three lines correctly.

Come on. You've got to support your baby. Have some loyalty.

Take your time.

[Speaker 2]
Take your time.

[Speaker 1]
No, I didn't ask that. Just translate these three lines. A hundred bucks, okay?

I'm working for you Aaron. I'll give you a clue. This sutra is called Jendi.

Yeah, go. Dawa, to repeat, to recite.

[Speaker 2]
To recite the stone or something?

[Speaker 1]
The name of this sutra is described afterwards. The name of the sutra is the later description. The recitation after.

So Sharipu, after he reached Nirvana, he said, he explained, he said this. I'd say it's $75, okay? I don't think he deserves $100.

But what's it mean? He reached Nirvana, but how was he around?

[Speaker 2]
He said something.

[Speaker 1]
After he reached Nirvana, he wrote a book about it. So if he disappeared, then what the... Okay, then who?

Shariputra. Do we know him? Maybe from the Heart Sutra, Shariputra.

No, but by the way, the other guys agree because it's Shariputra. Lower school, lower school dude. And Shariputra said, this is how Nirvana felt to me when I got there.

[Speaker 2]
Where is this book though?

[Speaker 1]
It exists. I found it. It exists.

I think I quoted it here. I quoted it somewhere in here. I went and found it.

The sutra itself called... Oh, the sutra is only quoted in Master Charakirti. I don't see it anywhere else, even obliquely.

So anyway, now let's go to the whole sentence, because the sentence is going to say, if you believe that, how the hell can you explain this quotation? If you believe what you believe, then how can you say, Shariputra described his Nirvana after he got there? Okay, so what's the first part of the sentence?

We've got to go back. Lhagyeki ngenka.

[Speaker 2]
At the time of achieving Nirvana with the Nirvana.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, if you accept the idea that the Nirvana you reach, when you reach Nirvana with remainder, is not a nyamde sinipa. Sinipa means the real thing. The real thing.

If you go around saying, Nirvana with something left over ain't real Nirvana. Who said that? He said, because no birth means, after you reach Nirvana, you don't have to be born anymore.

That's a real Nirvana. So if you say, Nirvana where you still have a body is not the real one, not the real one, then how do you explain these lines, dakikewa sedho?

[Speaker 2]
I've done it.

[Speaker 1]
I finished my birth. Dakikewa sedho. I finished my birth.

Who? According to you, he's got to be gone already. How can he say, I finished my birth, when he's gone already?

Got it? If Nirvana has to mean no more birth, then how can Shariputra say, I reached a place where I have no birth. Who said that?

He's got no birth. He's not around anymore. If that's what no birth means, then how can Shariputra talk about his Nirvana?

Got it? I finished my birth.

[Speaker 2]
You're going to say he's not going to take another one.

[Speaker 1]
Well, anyway, she sumpatar di jitarjan means, how are you going to read these lines now? If you believe the only real Nirvana is when you disappear, then how are you going to read these lines where Shariputra describes his no more taking birth?

[Speaker 2]
Sure. He's trying to make the decision that Nirvana is not real Nirvana.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, let's go to the next line.

[Speaker 2]
Where are we? Shariputra? Shariputra...

[Speaker 1]
Shariputra... Make the pu-pu. You'll get used to that.

V was wiping Teo's bottom and I said, you look like you have experience with that. She says, about three times a day for the first few years. Translate it.

Good. I have achieved nirvana. First past tense, che.

[Speaker 2]
After I achieved nirvana.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I did it, and then, ne. Oh, here we go, trokpo shin. Yeah, my other trokpos.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, my homies.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and then I told my friends how I did it. Okay? Je su depa means I later described.

I later, not recite, but it just means I... Then I told my friends how I did it. Okay, so how could Shariputra say that if the only kind of nirvana is where you disappear?

And look, Shariputra is your lower school hero. He's one of your lower school arhats. I'm just quoting your own book to you.

Don't mind me. Okay? Okay, cool?

I went looking for this sutra, because that comes up, right? And the only place I can find it is quoted in Master Chandrakirti's commentary to the 60 verses, which Nick can do as dessert if he has nothing else to do in the future. Chandrakirti did write a commentary to this same book by Nagarjuna, and in that book, he quotes this sutra.

And that's the only place I can find this sutra. Wow. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
So...

[Speaker 1]
I don't think so. I don't think so. Okay, go ahead.

Deni... Where are we now? We're down back to...

We're coming back to the thing. Well, first of all, shena indicates... Yeah, it's a claim by another guy.

So it's supposed to be wrong. So get that in your head first before you read the sentence. Look at the end.

It says shena. Whatever this guy says is supposed to be wrong. Okay?

Then let's go see what he said. DENI NYONMO LOB PA LUNG DU BYAS KYI What he reached... LUNG DU BYAS KYI What he reached...

When he says, I reached it, he was only talking about the LOB PA of his NYONMOS. Yeah. When Shariputra says, I reached it, he wasn't talking about nirvana.

He was just saying he stopped his mental afflictions. KYI It's not KYI. It's not that he was saying, I LOB PA'd my PUMBOS.

Yeah. Yeah. He's not talking about his nirvana.

He's just talking about he improved his mental state. Okay? That's all he's talking about.

The other guy's... The other guy's trying to say you don't reach real... SE NYID PA real nirvana until you stop your body and mind.

[Speaker 2]
Did we just say he said that?

[Speaker 1]
We said he said that. But since we're always right... PEM RIG GYEN CHE Please.

I tried to drill into you for the last three days. PEM RIG Say PEM RIG PEM RIG GYEN CHE Discontinuation of your physical body and your mind.

[Speaker 2]
But they do describe a HOG CHE so they would have to have one...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, what do you got all left over in HOG CHE? I don't know. Okay, anyway.

We're not going there. Next... Next...

[Speaker 2]
Next paragraph. Next paragraph.

[Speaker 1]
So we're going to split our answer into two parts. Okay? Number one.

Your claim that when Sharipu said he did it Shariputra said he did it. He was just talking about stopping his negative emotions. He wasn't talking about Nirvana.

Okay? Now, if that can't be correct because the GYEN DE'I KYI RTO the sutra which was presented after he got there the name of the sutra is presented after he got there. Okay?

It says DNGAL DIG PANGS PA PANGS I stopped all my suffering. Yeah, I'm free of all my suffering. I stopped all my suffering.

Then what's the other guy going to say? I agree that the sutra says I stopped all my suffering but that was only referring to the suffering of his negative emotions. It wasn't referring to gallbladder problems and stuff like that.

Okay? So when Shariputra said I reached Nirvana all he's talking about is he stopped his negative emotions. He's not talking about real Nirvana.

And then we say but that's not right because the next sentence he says I got rid of all my suffering and suffering is a lot more than being upset. Suffering also includes your body. Okay?

So he must have stopped his body according to you. Right? Okay?

If he got rid of all his suffering. No, no, no. When he said I got rid of all my suffering he was just talking about a piece of his suffering.

See, the guy keeps trying to get away from it. Okay? Then we say and by the way don't come back to me with oh, I stopped a piece of my suffering because come dear in this particular context in this sutra the chi-ming is not referring to the chendak.

[Speaker 2]
The chendak name is not referring to the details of the to the whole the name suffering is not referring to Good. pieces of suffering.

[Speaker 1]
Good. What's the piece of suffering?

[Speaker 2]
His body.

[Speaker 1]
No, his nyomong.

[Speaker 2]
Mental afflictions. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Don't give me that BS. Okay? When he said I got rid of my pain he was not talking about a piece of his pain.

He was talking about all his pain. No, no. He was just talking about his mental afflictions.

No, no, no, no. You can't apply jorwa here the general name suffering to a piece of his suffering his negative emotions. That's not the point.

He meant I got rid of all of them. Okay? Don't give me this thing where he was just talking about a piece of his suffering.

Okay? Mite. That's mite.

Okay? Got it? Here we go.

By the way, see all the work I had to do on this? And suddenly we break out of the it's like those Brahma bowls that get released from the with the guy on the back and it's really difficult and then at a certain point he just seems to let go and he just makes normal commentary. But so far he still wants to you know make it complicated.

So that's why you have to have 25 notes in here. Okay. Here we go.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay.

[Speaker 1]
First of all I ask you to go back to section 63. Okay. Let's go back to section 63.

Okay. Uhh If the numbers haven't changed. Okay.

So way, way, way back when, we had Shariputra, and his teacher, Ashwajit, recited a single verse to him, and he understood emptiness. And this is the verse. It has been spoken by our guide that the world comes about through causes, and those causes that created it are our karma and negative thoughts.

The guide has also said that our karma and negative thoughts are the very things we need to shut down. Who is the guide? He's the leader of all.

It means, if you read the sutra, the minute he heard this verse, Shariputra became an Arya. He saw emptiness directly, just immediately after hearing this verse.

[Speaker 2]
Huh?

[Speaker 1]
He went into meditation. He had to. So, don't forget this line.

Gyatso Je wants you to go back to that line and appreciate it. So now we are here. DINI LA DALPA DIR TZEL GYI NGAR PAPA MA THOD KUN GYI MED PA'I SLOKA DE LA Something is clarified in this commentary by Chandrakirti, but it hasn't been clarified earlier when we had the lines that Ashvajit said to Shariputra that helped him to see emptiness directly.

At that point, when he got those lines and he saw emptiness, Shariputra THOPA THONG LA Achieved emptiness directly. But NYANG DE NI But his nirvana came later. When Kuntukyu and I said, see the note just following from Ben's text, which is some kind of Hindu school, the wanderers.

I went and got it from Ben's text, somewhere here. Here. This is from your text, somewhere here.

So Kuntukyu is a parivrajaka, a wanderer, and it was a Hindu school. And there was a Hindu teacher in your text called Long Fingernails, which is DIRGA NAKA. NAKA means fingernails, DIRGA means long fingernails.

So it's one of their teachers, called Mr. Long Fingernails. But I found out, somewhere here, it was Shariputra's name, also, in a previous life. He was also called Mr. Long Fingernails. So let's go there. And this is a huge amount of work, trust me. Anyway, NYANG DE NI, he got nirvana later, when he was the wanderer named Long Fingernails.

And to him, the Buddha taught the Dharma, the teacher taught the Dharma. And at that time, he achieved nirvana. He got nirvana.

Therefore, LHAG CHEN GYI NYANG DE DONG NAM NAS DZIN PA MI ZAL NO, it's not clear that you start to get nirvana from DONG NA. It's not clear that nirvana with remainder starts from the path of sin. It's not the point.

[Speaker 2]
It's not clear whether or not that's true.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
That's what we're saying, they're saying.

[Speaker 1]
What's the Prasangika position?

[Speaker 2]
You start. That is, in fact, where the...

[Speaker 1]
But when do you start? When is nirvana without remainder, according to the high school?

[Speaker 2]
During the direct perception.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, because you no longer have a remainder of wrong ideas. You are in the direct perception emptiness. So which comes first in the high school?

[Speaker 2]
Without remainder.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, first you get no remainder, and then you pick up a remainder when you come back to the world and start seeing things as self-existent again, which Aryas do. So in the higher school, you achieve the nirvana without remainder first, and then you come back to with remainder. But in the other schools?

[Speaker 2]
Without remainder.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you get rid of your mental afflictions. You still have your old body, which was created by mental afflictions. You don't create new karmas to have a body of mental afflictions.

And when you die, you enter nirvana with no remainder because there's no new karmas to create a new body, a new suffering body. So, by the way, which means that arhats can suffer. And the first dharma commentary starts with a discussion of how the arhat got...

[Speaker 2]
His head cut off.

[Speaker 1]
Got his head cut off in a whorehouse or something. Anyway, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Sounds like an exciting story.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. So, in the lower school, so hlak che is then defined, how we define nirvana in the higher school, like just getting rid of all your mental afflictions. I'm sorry.

Say again. So, in the lower school, you said venerable chit, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
For hlak me. Yeah. So hlak che is then defined as...

Yeah, it seems like, well, you still have your old body, but you got rid of your mental afflictions. But your mental afflictions are gone. I believe so, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
And do they represent an emptiness or not?

[Speaker 1]
They would say yes, I think. Okay. Yes.

Because anything less is just... I'm sorry. Chill.

Say chill. Yeah, anything less is just suppression.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Now, let's try to follow the logic here, because the wording is not easy. It's not correct to say that when Shariputra said, I reached my goal, he was just talking about getting rid of his mental afflictions, right? When he said, I got rid of all my pain.

It cannot refer only to getting rid of his mental afflictions. Okay? Because then he quotes it.

He quotes the same sutra that Shariputra spoke to his friends to describe what happened to him. It's clear in this commentary, which I guess is Chandrakirti, okay? That there's a distinction between the time he reached tonglam and the time he reached nirvana.

Because tonglam, he achieved the path of seeing due to a discussion with Ashwajit. And he achieved nirvana due to instructions he received from this Buddha in the time that he was Mr. Longfingernails. So trying to draw a distinction between...

It must be that the other school believes that somehow reaching tonglam is some kind of nirvana. And we're saying, no, no, no, there was two separate incidents. One, he saw emptiness based on the verse of his friends.

And then secondly, he got to nirvana due to teachings by the Buddha when he was Mr. Longfingernails. Say again?

[Speaker 2]
Longfingernails?

[Speaker 1]
Natural nirvana? I'm not talking about that. Not yet.

Not here. He's implying that the lower schools think somehow that during the path of the situation you are in nirvana? Right.

Yeah, something like that.

[Speaker 2]
They didn't say anything like that.

[Speaker 1]
Because they said nirvana was only the removal of your mental afflictions. Sorry, getting rid of your pain was only removing your mental afflictions.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? Now, if you want to know my sources for the long fingernail thing, I put it here. It's from the Vinaya.

And there's a discussion about Mr. Longfingernails. And he talks about his mother named Sharika. Got it?

So he's Shariputra. Mr. Longfingernails in this sutra is talking about his mother, Shari. And putra means son of, right?

So Shariputra. His mom's name was Sharika. So in this Vinaya scripture, Mr. Longfingernails is nailed down as the son of Sharika. He describes himself as, I am the son of Sharika. At that point, he's not called Shariputra yet. He's called Mr. Hindu Longfingernail Wandering Guy. Okay? So that's a long quotation. By the way, in that text ...

You found the eight vows thing? I think I found the vows that the boy took before he got on the boat with his friends. Wow.

So that bears going back. By the way, here's the final line of that Vinaya quotation. Tramsekyud, this son of a Brahmin, mother, was Sharika.

And because he was the child of Sharika, he got the name Shariputra. It's the punchline of that Vinaya. So that's the whole description about how Mr. Longfingernails got teachings of Buddha and reached nirvana. But that last line proves it was Shariputra. Because the sutra says this was Shariputra. Got it?

Yeah. That was pretty far out that I found the whole thing.

[Speaker 2]
Did he just happen to take those same vows?

[Speaker 1]
Well, he mentioned some, and I didn't have time to research it. Then I got this quotation from Ben Kramer's text about kshapanas and people with long fingernails. So don't confuse.

Short footnote? Don't confuse the two. Okay.

Let's go to number ... Here's Nyapani, okay? So go to ...

[Speaker 2]
Got it. Yeah. Oh, wait.

Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. So we finished defeating their idea of hlakchenyamde. And now we got to defeat their idea of hlakmenyamde.

If your position on what no more birth means is correct, then there cannot either be a nirvana without remainder. And we just supposedly proved that there can't be a nirvana with remainder if you stick to that idea of that's what no more going means. Got it?

[Speaker 2]
That was the most convincing part.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. And this is tough stuff. I mean, you're going to have to cook it.

But you've got everything you need. You have all the references you need. You've just got to cook it, okay?

Let's keep going. We have a minute.

[Speaker 2]
We're out of time. I don't care. I don't care.

[Speaker 1]
Which kind of means when that also stops, you reach freedom. Let's go see what it means. Let's do these two tiny paragraphs.

This dunayang means it's us talking to him.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
If you want to go some other way, and you want to talk about a nirvana where the body and mind have stopped, you want to go that way? Let's go that way. Okay.

So kangyinsen means, okay, suppose you want to change your course, and you want to say the body and mind gak, the end. And at that point, you reach nirvana. Okay.

Even if you take that detour, I'm going to prove you wrong. And here it is. Let me just read it, okay?

If your system, lower school guy, is correct, then even when your body and mind stop, that cannot be nirvana. Even in your system. Since the body and mind, at the point of nirvana with remainder, exist in and of themselves, okay, because they don't depend on seeds, okay, then, because you believe in a self-existent body and mind at that point, you are not going to stop.

Because you're going to make new karma. You're going to make new karma. Because of your wrong beliefs, okay?

Because you think that body and mind exist without seeds. The husband's not my fault. Then you're going to make new karma, okay?

So don't tell me your body and mind are going to disappear. You're making new karma to have a new body and mind. And ma'ongpa khyewa lak tun ne kyang, shepa dey charjipa jang, Okay.

Okay. You're still going to have a body and mind because you're still making karma because you think the leftover body and mind you had existed by themselves. And that caused you to make new karma.

So don't tell me about any nirvana with no remainder because you ain't going to go there. Because you still think they start and stop. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yay!

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, even relative to a future lifetime, how is it going to end? How is it ever going to end? Okay.

Because of the way you're thinking. I would check the... This chick is suspicious, yeah.

It could mean past tense destroyed. But it's a little uncomfortable. And you checked it.

Yeah, and it was okay? Okay. Who?

Who? Oh, he says things... He says the body and mind change from moment to moment from their own side and not from my system.

And therefore, if you think that even for five minutes, you're making karma.

[Speaker 2]
But they wouldn't accept that Shariputra believes that while he still has a body and hasn't run out of lives.

[Speaker 1]
They would say that.

[Speaker 2]
They wouldn't accept that Shariputra is still somehow wrong about his body before he runs out of his body.

[Speaker 1]
No, they wouldn't accept that. They wouldn't accept that. But just the fact that Shariputra talked about his nirvana after he reached nirvana is suspicious according to their beliefs.

[Speaker 2]
Why?

[Speaker 1]
He's supposed to disappear.

[Speaker 2]
No, it's function.

[Speaker 1]
That's what they call function. That would be the same case for the Buddha himself?

[Speaker 2]
Say again? That would be the same case for the Buddha himself?

[Speaker 1]
They're talking that this section is focusing on nirvana, not on Buddhahood. It's got to be an art form. It's an implication.

If you're enlightened, you're already in nirvana. So how the Buddha thought, how the Buddha... Yeah.

Ask the Abhidharma guy. Don't ask these questions to him. I'm not the Abhidharma guy.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, let's go, Nick.

[Speaker 1]
SAKSHI PUKHI CHU SHING MEDHO CHANG RIG PA MING SHING GYEL MING DE SANG GYE SHING DU MING DE GYEL SHING PAR CHOK YIN RANG BU RANG NAMAN DALAKAM NIRYAT DAYANG SANG GYE SHING SOG SOG SHING SANG GYE SHING LE CHUNG WEI Thank you.