Классика Алмазного огранщика: Верхний Срединный путь — Великие книги мудрости, занятие 41

[Speaker 1]
We are going to start with the lecture on the existence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and then we'll go on to the lecture on the existence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So, please join me in chanting the mantra, Nirmala Mata Nirmala Mata Nirmala Nirmala Sangye Choknam Sogye Choknam Lhag Jagjubardu Dagni Khyat Sujit Daggichan Yen Gyipe Sunam Gyi Drolabin Sir Sangye Drupal Chok Sangye Choknam Sogye Choknam Lhag Jagjubardu Dagni Khyat Sujit Daggichan Yen Gyipe Sunam Gyi Drolabin Sir Sangye Drupal Chok Sangye Choknam Sogye Choknam Lhag Jagjubardu Dagni Khyat Sujit Daggichan Yen Gyipe Sunam Gyi Drolabin Sir Sangye Drupal Chok Smoky Toky So real quick, real quick guys, please remember Microphone, microphone Please remember that in one week's time from today Starting tomorrow, counting tomorrow You guys, each of us translators that is the primary translator Are we all here except for Adam right now?

No, Seiji's also not here Stanley and Allison are all here Five of them are not here All the people that I desperately need to remind Okay, I'll send an email tonight For the four of us that are We got to submit a thing in a week That has three real apps made from the material we covered this term Of your own translation? Of your own translation Of your own translation, three real apps These are for our illustrious doctor sponsor And he's paying our salaries And he's making this place possible So I just want to remind you It's not even that I care that much But you have to do it For that reason This is not it This is an example of a template that Tim Thank you Tim, started throwing together Because we were also brainstorming ways to use this information To find further sponsors So we're not dependent on one sponsor Luckily that sponsor's been amazing thus far But we don't know what's going to happen in the future We love our jobs This is the most amazing career that any of us could dream of And we don't want it to change And we want it to continue Make them happy Maybe we'll have raises one day Make your sponsor, raise, oh man You're having a

[Speaker 2]
We want to diversify

[Speaker 1]
You must be eating some marijuana Not lately We want to diversify Our sponsor portfolio So Tim and I along with other members of our staff Have been Brainstorming how to do that We want to use this stuff for fundraising We're also working on creating content That's available for subscription Which I'll tell you guys more about sometime in the future I think we're going to announce it this afternoon Oh cool Maybe I'll even do it online I'll see It's coming, we don't have much fleshed out yet I got a flyer From the That's about Subscribed content That's about the 108 books Oh you got a different idea We're talking about electronic stuff Yeah That's great, God bless So please do this thing And we're going to use it for various things And on another note We're probably going to try to do some teaching Each of us teaching our texts Via Online means So that we can teach So that we can teach people How to translate our books into other languages So I hope that I'll work on managing that and creating a schedule And figuring out times that we can all participate In that together It's a long term view I think it's going to benefit all of us Thank you Homework time

[Speaker 2]
You were just saying something about real life format Is that a format that you

[Speaker 1]
That's what I was going to say I will send everybody a template Tim started putting it together I'm going to check it Send everybody a template Because it all has to be in the same format Explain real app

[Speaker 2]
Luna

[Speaker 1]
Explain real app Real app means You're going to take the information That's in the books that we're working on Translating, mine them We're going to find Information that can be converted Into stuff that we can teach To audiences who aren't necessarily Interested in Buddhist Psychology or Just the random things that we're studying Not random The various things that we're studying And make it applicable to their lives And everything will contain What did she say? A catchy title A beautiful photo It's going to be Authentic From the scriptures that we're studying And relevant to people's lives So we all have to do that We're going to make three of them From the content that we're digging out of our books We teach about, for example In Muslim countries Every year we teach about four or five thousand people So we want things that we can use For people By the way I'd like to welcome Victor Gonzalez Hi, Victor Who's working for the college He's going to take photos today Half the people are gone taking their final exams Try to take lots of photos of this handsome guy Christine, when you come sit here I feel a little lonely Aww Yeah, a lot of our staff Is gone taking their final My wife's building a yoga studio But Victor's done a very, very good job In keeping the college going He's helped Scott and Noreen immensely He's doing amazing Facebook posts Someone asked me a few days ago They said I can see you hired a professional company Do you do your Facebook? And I said, no, that's a guy named Victor So I want to thank you for that Yay Since we're thanking people I also want to thank Tim for archiving all this Yay He's the Butterphone master Butterphone master Without him We wouldn't be able to do our six weeks of translation Because he's making it all available to us And there's about 3,000 people have watched the videos, right? Yeah, 3,000 subscribers To the Tibetan language By accident, and we didn't tell anybody They just found it So if we really push it, we'll hit 10,000 We're very good at not sharing Our stuff on Facebook You're ruining our reputation Okay, here we go Sorry, homework first So here's the verse This is Nagarjuna's last verse And this is my very provisional translation Just for the sake of you guys Having something to look at for this If you don't read Tibetan perfectly Which we don't So this is the verse that we're looking at right now Explain it, I'm curious Well It's supposed to have a tengyur in it Two tengyurs Well, I'm just going to Give in to my homework questions Let's try that I'll go back to the verse if you need The first half of our Nagarjuna's verse is a What's it say for those people who can't read Tibetan? Tengyur What's a tengyur?

[Speaker 2]
It's an absurd consequence

[Speaker 1]
Give us an example

[Speaker 2]
Someone says All fruits are yellow And then you say Oh, I guess a banana is not No, they say

[Speaker 1]
All fruits are red Guess apples aren't a fruit then Or you can say I guess apples are Apples are vegetables

[Speaker 2]
But I guess oranges are yellow

[Speaker 1]
All orange things are fruits So I guess Traffic cones are fruit It's a sarcastic statement The first half of the verse Is a tengyur This is what Gyatsobje is saying So what are the components of the tengyur? Anybody remember?

Michael broke it down for us I did it super simple Yeah Oh, I'm sorry You want the actual content What are the components of the tengyur That Gyatsobje is implying Or saying Yeah Consider

[Speaker 2]
By the way

[Speaker 1]
Use their idea As the reason Let's take this I guess that Because according to you Okay, use it The second part is the absurd part Okay, good Yeah, go ahead Let's take nirvana without nirvana Okay, it's just nirvana In this case it's just cessation

[Speaker 2]
Later

[Speaker 1]
Let's take nirvana That's good Now you're going to say something ridiculous And then you have to say what he said Do you want me to go back to the verse? Good That's later That's later First half of Hari Nagarjuna's verse Look again It comes from I guess I guess it doesn't I guess it's not a knowledge of how things work Oops, sorry I guess it's not achieved through perfect understanding Of produced things Meaning of samsara Because Nagarjuna said a very Controversial thing What did he say?

Nirvana is the knowledge of samsara

[Speaker 2]
Nagarjuna said that And he's saying

[Speaker 1]
I guess it's not that Right Because

[Speaker 2]
It has nothing to do

[Speaker 1]
With understanding produced things No, because what he said Because it's accomplished through destruction Yeah, when you disappear That's nirvana So I guess according to you Then nirvana can't involve Understanding the emptiness of samsara Because it's the end of samsara

[Speaker 2]
Right Accomplish the destruction of each Then that also means you're shut off

[Speaker 1]
And Geshe-la threw this in Something like that The second half of Hari Nagarjuna's verse Discusses two things Nice question

[Speaker 2]
With remainder and without remainder

[Speaker 1]
Nirvana without remainder And nirvana with remainder Yeah, in this order for now Yeah, and it's kind of interesting That it goes in that order Yeah I guess No, you're right Well, I don't know Yeah, maybe I think it fits his argument better Right, yeah Because he keeps going there Talking about how the person's Briefly describe the problems With the lower school's versions Of these divisions of nirvana There's two specific problems Because if you Achieve nirvana without remainder If you blink out There's no one there that has achieved nirvana Yeah, for Khlaq Me there's no one who achieves the goal And then there would be no arhats The idea arhat would be impossible The person who reached nirvana Would be impossible If nirvana means you disappear Then there's nobody who can say We can say, oh, Victor reached nirvana Because the lower school Says you disappear when you reach nirvana So there's nobody around in the world Who reached nirvana Okay

[Speaker 2]
And if there's someone around who did

[Speaker 1]
If there is something Sorry If there's someone around who did achieve nirvana And they still have the suffering Then what the heck did they achieve? Yeah, what the heck kind of nirvana is that?

Yeah, because in the last class, right? In Stanley's class We said an arhat can still have their body Which was produced by Dirty things Right Okay, so if they still have a body Which is produced by dirty things Then how can you call it freedom from suffering? Cool I said no goal to achieve Just to sum it up real quick And keep the PowerPoint looking pretty Lots of words Yes Okay, a couple of Tibetan phrases Those were easy This is a little weird Oh, is it?

It's a head letter I don't know why it came out that way It's just some kind of program thing Yeah Okay So let's try the first one You got to get your Ts, man Ttak No No Trying nga ma together Is one thing Nga ma means Ngun ma Ngun ma Yeah, previous Basically Ttak Ttak Ttak Usually when they say Ttak Nga Ma It's often a split reason. I'm not, I don't think it's the case here, but normally it's the first part of a split reason. For the same reason?

That's right, yeah. This can't suck. Oh, it should be a...

It's supposed to be a head loader. I don't know why it didn't go. Sometimes the program's weird.

Word keeps telling me, Microsoft keeps telling me to download like a thousand more fonts. Do it. I will.

I just... Because I didn't say it again? No.

This is an important expression. It's an idiom? It relates to, I'll give you guys a hint, it relates to...

Didn't come before. Didn't come first, didn't come before.

[Speaker 2]
There's nothing there still? There's nothing left? I'm throwing an alipango.

[Speaker 1]
Larian, larian. We're all on to the right. Again, larian is again.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, Mickey. Mickey. Again.

Cannot start again. Cannot start again. Why?

[Speaker 1]
What's the usual reason? We had it in his text.

[Speaker 2]
Because there's nothing there.

[Speaker 1]
There's no fuel. Yeah, the causes and conditions choke off. You can have a seed there, but if there's no sunlight, if there's no water, if there's no fertilizer, the thing will die.

There's two, in Buddhism there's two ways to stop your negativities, and one is just to choke them off. Choke off their food. Okay?

That's called larmi gyuri. Cool. As opposed to pang.

Eliminate altogether. Yeah, as opposed to giving them up, you just choke off their food.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Okay, you take the plane, boss. Okay.

Provisional, okay? Baldly provisional. Baldly.

Meaning, I'm not claiming it's anything more than provisional. What do I do?

[Speaker 2]
Go to the text. You did it. You did the thing.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. I'm still working on it.

But here's where I got so far. We'll refine it by the time we edit it. So please read.

go jak la nyi pa med te pak pak sharipu la sok pe rang shing kye me khing go pa de ngun sung du je pe chir Delicate sentence, okay? That's Gyaltsabje. He's the hardest author I think I know.

He got the hardest book there is. Koachok, Us Guys. Okay, nyi pa med te.

Yeah, we don't have the problems that you have, okay? About our ideas on nirvana are better than your ideas about nirvana. Because we got...

Shariputra is speaking that sutra. Yeah, we have an Arya named Shariputra, who's the hero of the... Heart Sutra.

Heart Sutra. Why is he called Shariputra? Because he's the son of Sharika.

[Speaker 2]
Good, nice.

[Speaker 1]
Putra means son. And Sharika is his mom's name. So he's called Shariputra.

He also has another name which is centering, I think. Long fingernail. I have it in Sanskrit.

In a text I sent it to you. Long fingernail. Naraka.

Not... Nakana. Anyway.

It's... Kama? Nakana?

Kama. No, no.

[Speaker 2]
Fingernail.

[Speaker 1]
Nakana, I think. Nakana Radha or something. No.

Anyway. Something like that. We're coming.

It's coming. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Oh, we're going to hit it?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, we're going to hit it.

[Speaker 1]
Et cetera, and other such guys. They... What's munsum tu che?

It's an idiom. Directly... According to...

According to... Directly saw? No, che.

Not... Oh, it's called.

[Speaker 2]
By what they did directly.

[Speaker 1]
They actualized.

[Speaker 2]
Actualized.

[Speaker 1]
They brought into being. Okay. Okay.

They brought about. Say brought about. Brought about.

Munsum tu che. They brought about gopa. Your cessation or nirvana in this case.

Yeah. Yeah. In which there was no growing of stained things or pain, but which could have started on its own.

[Speaker 2]
Uh... Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay? Tricky, tricky, tricky.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
We don't have the problems that you have, because we say, Shariputra brought about a cessation of rebirth that could have come on its own. Brought about a cessation? Of rebirth.

Uh, what's that?

[Speaker 2]
The rebirth could have come on its own?

[Speaker 1]
Where... A cessation where there was no longer any birth, which could have started on its own. Okay?

So be careful. Yeah, that's...

[Speaker 2]
That's confusing.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. He brought about a cessation of any further birth... Which could have...

Which... Birth which... Birth which could have happened on its own.

Fascinating. Whoa. Because our big thing in this section is when we refer to the word birth or starting, we must do it in a Nagarjunian way, not from its own side.

[Speaker 2]
The cessation of birth, which could have started on its own, meaning cessation of thinking of births as things.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you could say that too.

[Speaker 2]
We hope he means that. Is it a totally recurring birth?

[Speaker 1]
A birth which is not coming from your seeds. Yeah. That's all.

Which is coming... It's a pen. It's a pen thing.

Okay. Okay, here we go. Okay.

This is a really tough, tough, tough, tough concept. Shenyang, moreover... I think it's a problem with the other guy.

Okay? But it could be wrong. I don't know.

But I think it's the other guy. Gopa Munson... Directly realizing the cessation is...

The concept of bringing about a cessation, okay? Which involves the word birth. Direct, okay?

Must be incorrect. Because to stop something, to put an end to something, assumes you have perceived that something. Okay, right.

I stopped my... I stopped my mind. Means you must have looked at your mind to know you stopped it.

So he's trying to support our position? We're criticizing them, because according to you, the mind would no longer have been there to decide it stopped.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. How do you know it stopped?

[Speaker 1]
But it could be him complaining to us, because we're the ones who say the mind's not really there. So it could be a counter-complaint. You know, he's saying, if nirvana is to see the true nature of samsara, which is to see the true nature of your heaps, which is to see the true nature of your mind, then how can you say that you had a cessation?

Because there's no mind to have the cessation. That would be stepping away from a very good point.

[Speaker 2]
I think it's us, though. Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So anyway, Gacchi, Pumbo. So Gacchi is where the absence is. Uh-huh.

You see? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the thing that's... We had Gacchi's in your text, because we could have...

[Speaker 2]
But don't give away the answers to my questions.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, really?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, let's not go there. Gacchi is where the thing is not. Okay?

The Gacchi of the cup is here. There's no... Okay, there's no cup there.

Got it? Yeah. So this is called...

In that case, the cup is the Gaccha, and the Gacchi is here. Location where the thing is not. Okay?

So Gacchi, Pumbo, okay? The heaps is where the thing is not. When's it the tokne?

The heaps is where your cessation is, right? Gopa shugla tok means, as you watch the heaps directly, then incidental to that shugla, sharla, shorla... Uh, that arising.

Shugla, yeah, yeah. Incidentally to that, you perceive the cessation. Okay?

Incidental... Cessation of the heaps, you have to have a heaps to see that it's not. Right.

Where the thing is no longer. Right. Okay?

Mithete. Because nekabdera pumbo khyelmin dupe eche. You say there's no heaps at that point.

So he must be talking to Shenlong. Yeah. But it's conceivable that he's describing Shenlong criticizing Ranglan, who said there's no real heaps there.

But is this Shenyang? So it makes sense... I think it's the way I said it, but I'm just saying...

[Speaker 2]
It's open.

[Speaker 1]
Be careful, because you've got a really tricky guy talking.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh. Okay. Okay.

It's not just like... like moreover you can't say that you've come to the realization of the absence of the heaps, because you said you ain't got no heaps.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's okay. Geshe-la, the name we found for Sariputra previously was Ashwajit. Uh, in...

Tatul. Horse.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh. Tamed horse.

[Speaker 1]
He's also going to be called that later today. We're going to come back to Tatul. Okay, go ahead.

Yeah, uh... The idea is when you perceive something directly, it must be rong-tsen, and it cannot be chit-tsen. That's the principle being discussed here.

Right. Translate. Uh, when you see something directly, it must be a manifestation, uh, not an archetype itself.

[Speaker 2]
Good.

[Speaker 1]
So whatever you're seeing is just like... When you... You know, so generally when you see something directly, it must be the actual...

manifestation of the thing. The actual characteristic. Yeah, and not the idea of it.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Maybe it's using the other guy's beliefs. I don't know. Okay.

So it's incorrect to say that you could have seen it directly, because when you use your direct perceptions, uh, when the subject must be perceiving a thing which is rong-tsen. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
You agree to that.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, so... But what is he... How is he saying that the guy's actually claiming the chit-tsen?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's for us. Well, uh, if it's Shenlok talking to us, then emptiness is a chit-tsen.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, because it's dakpa.

[Speaker 1]
Because it's a negative, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, right.

[Speaker 1]
Maybe you can't see a real case of an emptiness.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, so you can't have mimsum because you... It's a concept. It's a dakpa, and you can't have...

which we learned in Adam's text, that your shen-yul...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Right, can't be the actual working thing.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so these two sentences, we have to think about it. But if it's us talking to him, I wouldn't think they were talking about emptiness, because they just were talking about seeing... Well, in that case, it means that you can't perceive arhatship.

It's not possible, because it's an idea and not a concrete object, according to you. So it's probably not. Something there, some kind of problem with perceiving arhatship.

Just use mimsum to refer to that. If arhatship means a blinking out, then you can't perceive it, because it's...

[Speaker 2]
You can't...

[Speaker 1]
Then he's playing with mun-gyur, to achieve and to be directly perceived. Yeah, to be against a samadhi.

[Speaker 2]
You can't say you directly perceive a laksh, if you only perceive it through jiva.

[Speaker 1]
I believe that's what it is. But as you can see from the notes, I was having my own troubles with this.

[Speaker 2]
I'll leave, that's me. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
It's very difficult. Okay, let's go a little more. Maybe we'll hit something where you can understand.

By the way, when you get underwater, just swim ahead, and then come back to it. Yeah, don't keep beating on it. Come back to it the next day, your mind will work on it overnight.

And you'll come back and say, oh, obviously. Yeah. I'm calling in the special forces.

Overrun? In Battle of the Bulge or something? Dropping behind enemy lines?

I don't know what that means. Okay. I think so.

タワチマラツタワトンパニ フラッチェキネカナ タッキキキラ タッキ タッキ Wh-wh-what? Well, uh...

[Speaker 2]
Stop saying that.

[Speaker 1]
タッキ There's an interesting block here. Because it's...

[Speaker 2]
Whether it's...

[Speaker 1]
If it's タッキ or タッキ Or dakis. There's three choices. Well, there's only...

is one of them missing an R? The block... Oh, dakir, I didn't see that.

The block says B, D, G, dot, G, giku, and there's a piece chopped out of the block. Oh my God. And I think the Lama went back and said, take out this S or take out this R.

But the block has been...

[Speaker 2]
Mangled?

[Speaker 1]
No, the block has been altered, I think, purposely. But there is a space there, a blank space, where there was either an R or an S. If there was an S, it's more comfortable for me.

An R is possible, nothing is possible. You've got to find another carving. I haven't got a clue, I think.

Okay, and I'll talk about it when we get to it. But go ahead, Kiowa? Kiowa said, ching shik go nyam pe, she pa, ka nyam pa, ba, te yam jit da, ngyo te, mi rung wa ta, rang gi tse nyi ki, kiwe chi.

I'm going up or down, Nick. Am I right? Yes, I knew you were thinking that.

I'll go with the ambiguity. We don't even know who's talking yet.

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
ngen na to thang gyel lo. Let's just go to the wording, and I think we've got to sit with it for a while. I can't...anyway. So, in the latter proof...

The latter thang gyel, and, you know, if you go back and study this thing... Is he talking about the thang gyel that...

[Speaker 2]
Which is here.

[Speaker 1]
...Narayana proposed? Yeah. No, two thang gyels, right?

Correct. And the first one was nirvana with no remainder, and the second one was nirvana with remainder. Right, okay, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Which one is the latter?

[Speaker 2]
The latter of your two thang gyels.

[Speaker 1]
There were three thang gyels in the verse, really.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, man, I don't want to go there.

[Speaker 1]
So, anyway, first you've got to figure out what's the later thang gyel for him. Right.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, I believe it's the with remainder.

[Speaker 2]
Nirvana with remainder, yeah. I believe so, yeah. Last, sarva means...

[Speaker 1]
sarva means, are you telling me it's red? Yeah, right. Assertion.

Take all fruits, they are red, because whatever. They're red. Then let's take a banana, are you...

Are you telling me it's red is the telva?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Bananas are red.

[Speaker 1]
Selva. In this case, there's no... Red.

There's no... Bananas, red bananas. Right.

And in this case, it's that there's no nirvana to achieve, because what nirvana would you achieve? What's the equivalent of a selva in a normal selvagesm? The assertion.

The assertion, yes. Yeah, good, drup ca. Drup ca.

Yeah, here it's sel ca. Sel ca. And you can say sel way too, and you can say sel wa.

Okay, but sel ca, the statement. Yeah. Oh, bananas are red.

So, in a normal selvagesm, the drup ca is always correct or false? Correct. It's always correct.

[Speaker 2]
It depends on the structure. It's always correct. It's me talking or them.

[Speaker 1]
But in a telangu, the drup ca is always...

[Speaker 2]
Always a crazy statement.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's always banana... So, you're telling me bananas are red. Yeah.

Somebody said all fruits are red. And then you say, okay, bananas are red, right? Yep.

That's the selva.

[Speaker 2]
Bananas are red.

[Speaker 1]
So, just know where you are.

[Speaker 2]
For sure.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, selva.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Which kind of means the arhat still has a body... The arhat still has a body produced by mental afflictions. Yeah.

Okay? But he's reached nirvana. Wait, didn't he go even further and just say what nirvana even exists?

Nope. Okay, that's arhat.

[Speaker 2]
That's hlak che.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. That's shen luk. The other guy's position.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
The arhat. There is an arhat who still exists, who has a body, which is sansara. Right.

And he's out of sansara. Right, okay. Okay?

Yep. How does our rang ruk avoid this problem?

[Speaker 2]
Uh... Because...

[Speaker 1]
We don't see that.

[Speaker 2]
That's not the meaning of hlak che. ...different idea about what is remainder and without remainder.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. Yeah. It's no problem to have a hlak che.

Yeah, it's no problem for the Arya to come back to seeing things coming from their own side. That's our hlak che.

[Speaker 2]
Arya. Yeah, Arya.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, but when we talk about hlak che, we're not talking about our... Oh yeah, we are. Yes.

Even if you want to say arhat. Yeah. Uh...

Yeah. Do they still have a body... Yeah, you could say that.

[Speaker 2]
That's a profound force saying that he's still a lobha, anyway.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
He's not a path. So, let's go to the next sentence, which is the... which is the controversial one because of the carving.

hlak che kyi ne kam na... Wait, I'm sorry again. It says tumpa.

Does that just mean as we taught before? Oh, uh... To...

To show a... a selva.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, okay.

[Speaker 1]
When you point out the selva. Okay. Oh, bananas are red.

Because that's a high word for teach, isn't it? Not really. Okay.

When you indicate the... When you indicate that bananas are red. Okay.

Okay. hlak che kyi ne kam na... Oh, by the way, here you go.

This is indicating the selva. Uh-huh. Now we're supposed to get a ridiculous statement.

The ni. Is that what you're pointing to? Uh, no.

We're about to say bananas are red. Right. I'll give you the selva.

Here it is. I'll indicate to you the selva. Here it is.

[Speaker 2]
Ni. Ni means...

[Speaker 1]
Nirvana with remainder.

[Speaker 2]
Good.

[Speaker 1]
dak kyi... khyewa se ching... You've stopped...

shigo... You've stopped birth. shepa...

And... So, you do have a shepa. Uh-huh.

Consciousness. You do have a mental awareness where you are thinking... I have destroyed it.

I have stopped birth, rebirth.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
And I have destroyed it. Yeah, I see.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
In which case, kis would be totally comfortable here. I have stopped birth.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, by me, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I have stopped birth. Kyi is acceptable. My births are stopped.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
My births are stopped. Uh-huh. That's okay.

So, the carving has kyi.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Genitive, possessive. My births are stopped.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
It would have been more comfortable for me if it were instrumental. And someone messed with the block. Uh-huh.

Yeah, I see. There's an obvious gap in the block. But that would...

If it was instrumental... If it's locative, with me, that's okay too, but it's not that great. Births of myself?

But it isn't even in the carving. The R isn't even in the carving. It's some kind of typo.

Yeah. Or they were using a different addition. The instrumental would go along with what they were quoting Buddha as having said before.

The instrumental would be most comfortable, as I pointed out here. Would have been nice.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
I have stopped birth.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Because it also fits the tengyur. Yeah. Which is to say what?

If the guy's still there, saying... Yeah, if you don't got a mind... How are you going to say this?

How are you going to think to yourself, I did it. Yeah. That's...

that's the point of this sentence. Okay? Jitargyur.

Yeah. Kangyenpa. Who's state?

That state of mind. This kang means the shepa. Oh.

That state of mind. That state of mind. Jitargyur.

How is it even going to come to be? And then he says our rang-lug after te.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
It would be incorrect.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Because also, it would have... that thought would have come up of its own accord, in and of itself. Uh-huh.

And then he goes back to our samsara, direct perception thing. Why would the thought have come up in and of itself? I don't know.

Okay. Okay. Or the birth...

the birth would have been by itself, but I think it's the thought. No mind to think it. Yeah.

Oh, so it would have been a thought that the bodhannamati, the person to think it? Yeah. And then...

Okay, yeah. I mean, you've got to sit with that. It's...

Gyaltsabje is showing off.

[Speaker 2]
This is the essential.

[Speaker 1]
I don't know why I have to see it. Uh... But then it...

I mean, this is the easy part. Let's go there.

[Speaker 2]
Dön-la.

[Speaker 1]
Ho-dhangal-la. If you say he disappeared, if you say he had no state of mind that thought, I did it. The contradicting scripture.

Which is? Shariputra's... Yeah, and it comes later.

Okay. Okay. So they...

So, follow that. You cut that from a later part when you showed it to us last class, right? Uh...

He... He... He comes to it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's going to come to it.

[Speaker 2]
We didn't...

[Speaker 1]
It'd be nice if he came to it in this term, but we're running out of time. Okay. I'll rephrase it.

U-wa-pa-ka-ter-yang-rang-gi-tsen-i-ki. U-wa-pa-ka-ter-yang-rang-gi-tsen-i-ki. He-me-tu-ke-lem-pe.

N-do-tang-gya-wa-me-to. Translate. The Middle Way-ers, at that time, even the practitioners of the Middle Way would say there is no thought that could just come out of nowhere.

Uh... U-wa-pa-ka-ter-yang-rang-gi-tsen-i-ki. N-do-tang-gya-wa-me-to.

And they would not be contradicting that sutra? Yeah. Which I take to mean we don't contradict the sutra because we interpret nirvana as just seeing that that thought couldn't come up in and of itself, or something like that.

Because we interpret nirvana as being... The thought not coming up in and of itself, meaning understanding samsara. Oh, wow.

Ko-wa-yung-tsu-she-pa. I mean, you could go there. Oh, wow.

Right. Okay? So, if we...

Yeah, kye-me. We... We describe the gokpa, the cessation, as the no longer growing of thoughts that come in and of themselves.

Wow. Okay? So, we don't contradict the sutra.

Wow. Okay? Yeah.

Right. And I'll tell you, it may be significant that he has referred to Shariputra. Where did he refer to Shariputra?

I don't know.

[Speaker 2]
At the beginning.

[Speaker 1]
As the arya.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh. Not the... Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Not the arha.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
It may be a bigot, the other guy. Because there's... Because there's a high school arya.

Or because he's saying this is by our definition.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
By our definition, he reached nirvana. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he's just an arya.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, got it? Yeah, by your definition, he reached nirvana.

But it may be a bigot, the other guy, that he says, pakpa Shariputra. Okay. Instead of drachoma Shariputra.

Uh-huh. When in the Diamond Cutter Sutra himself, Shariputra describes himself as an arhat. Yeah.

Yeah, that's true. In the Diamond Cutter Sutra. Back when I achieved arhat.

Sorry, that's Sabuti, right? I'm sorry, you're right. You're right.

Okay. I'm sorry. Oh, it would have been cute.

Okay. Okay, Sariputra. Sabuti.

Now, go ahead. shik chepa te jitabu shepa'i ngyurthana do jik na la sungo by the Spanish Sikh. Yeah, this Sikh with B.

With B in front of it. Okay. Whose translation are you quoting?

This other guy. It's a shenlu. jitabu shepa'i ngyurthana.

Oh, wow. So, what translation gave it that way? Oh.

And he says, I'm following the spelling of the sutra. Sikh na means wording. Okay.

Suno. I choose to follow the reading of the sutra. Now I go back to Bishik.

Here's the verse. Oh, so when they're saying sutra here, they're referring to Nagarjuna? No.

Well, see here. Here's Gyaltsabje's spelling. In Nagarjuna.

And here's the tengyur. Right. So they're referring to...

They're using the word sutra to refer to Nagarjuna.

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, that could be. That could be. That's a smart idea.

That's a smart idea. By the way, I checked the kangyur. Bishik doesn't occur in the kangyur.

Hmm. Interesting. In the whole kangyur.

Wow. Okay? In ten thousand pages.

In a hundred thousand pages. Somewhere in the sutra. So, I...

If you say, sometimes, rarely, Nagarjuna's wisdom is called the sutra. But... I mean, it doesn't make sense.

Sikdhar means, you know, the literal... the ancient spelling or something. But that...

I guess it wouldn't make sense because Nagarjuna's a middle way godfather and he'd be proving to the lower schools, so he'd be running... Check basumi in the kangyur. I don't...

Sorry. I don't think it occurs. And Gyaltsabje is justifying keeping it.

He mentions it. The meaning is clear, in any case. Which has already fallen apart.

Which is already njik. Which has already njik. A body and mind which is already njik.

It's already gone. I'm just kind of confused, to get to a point here. If it's not Nagarjuna that they're talking about, the only place we've seen bishik here is in Nagarjuna.

So, who are they talking about when they say whose transition is it? He's got to be saying, look, I'm using an ancient sutra spelling. Right.

Now, in the present kangyur, they don't use that spelling. Okay. It exists.

It doesn't exist, but it's not misspelled.

[Speaker 2]
I mean, mama, now we're beyond my capacity, but there are 40 of them.

[Speaker 1]
No, you're... Do it one more time. Let me see the next hit in the kangyur.

[Speaker 2]
There are 40 in the kangyur...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you're right. No, he is following sutra. Yeah.

Okay, he is following sutra.

[Speaker 2]
Where's only 12 in the tengyur?

[Speaker 1]
Oh yeah, I said 35 in the kangyur. All the ones in the Sumbhum are eras for washik, that I could find. Washi?

Washi. Like a final wa of the word before. Yeah, check them, check them.

[Speaker 2]
Well, I mean, this is...

[Speaker 1]
This is yun ring washik. You see? A long time.

Chima... That's a bishik, yeah. Okay, and that's...

Go again. This is...

[Speaker 2]
That's got to be right.

[Speaker 1]
That's a bishik.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
This is rung washi. You see? So, half of them are wrong.

Yeah. Okay, so... Anyway, I believe he is correct in saying this is the spelling from the ancient times.

Yeah. That's all. He's just trying to say, I'm not stupid.

And that's when I went back and decided to keep his translation.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
We had an agreement, and I had to go back and put them all back in. It took me like a day, you know. Okay?

All right. Yeah. You ready?

[Speaker 2]
I'll do that nonsense. Go ahead. That important stuff.

[Speaker 1]
Go ahead. Where are we?

[Speaker 2]
Here.

[Speaker 1]
Here we go. Nibbala, plak chen mi te pak dang, plak me mi te pak ni. Yeah, here's a sentence we can understand.

And we're in the... We're in the expanded explanation of why, in the other guy's system, achieving nirvana would be impossible. Yeah.

And we split it into two, which is... Nirvana with a major, and nirvana without a major.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, those two would be impossible.

[Speaker 1]
Why is he correct at each of those?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, here we go to the first one. Uh huh. Yeah, this is okay.

Dhammo ni. Here's the first one. Uh huh.

When you say the births are finished, the birth is finished.

[Speaker 2]
When you say the births are finished. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
This is the other guy, okay? Shinra.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. This is the other guy. Uh huh.

[Speaker 1]
Uh... The... What's intended to say, gongpa, what is intended to say, go backwards, what it intends to say, is that you will no longer nyingtsamjor.

Be able to... Nyingtsamjor. I know, it's an idiom that we learned.

Nyingtsamjor? Nyingtsamjor. Oh, to cross the line.

Yeah, I... Okay. When they say, no more birth.

Okay. Sorry. When they say birth is finished, they are referring to future births.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. They are not referring to the non-self-existent arising of the current heaps. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is Shambhala saying.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Don't give me this, uh... to-see-samsara-is-nirvana thing. When it says, starting is finished, they are not talking about Nagarjuna's first verse, starting.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
That they don't start from their own side. That's not what they are talking about. It's literally, they are talking about future births.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, births aren't going to start again.

[Speaker 1]
Nyingtsamjor. And he nails it down with an indisputable... what do you call it?

Unambiguous word for taking birth. Nyingtsamjor. Make crossing the line into a new birth.

Got it. This... you have finished...

birth has been finished.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Right.

[Speaker 1]
Starting... starting is finished. Doesn't mean self-existent starting is cancelled.

[Speaker 2]
It just means your next life isn't going to happen.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it refers to your next life.

[Speaker 2]
Which actually does clarify our mess above a little bit.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, a little bit. Uh... It is not...

here we go. It is not meant to refer to the non-self-existent starting of your current heaps. Tathagatipurna.

It doesn't mean that. He says, okay, when you describe nirvana as not starting, it's talking about starting again next life. It's not talking about your own heaps not starting from their own side tonight, today.

Okay? Which is not a bad, you know... That's how 90% of people understand nirvana, right?

[Speaker 2]
And then, rather than answering that again, he's going to let Nagarjuna answer it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, by the way, we're supposed to be blocking the idea of Lhagche.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
We still have something left. Sure. Okay?

Of course. Okay. Alright, that's time then.

If it were that way, then Lhagche would still be incorrect.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Nirvana with remainder, in that context, nekabdhena, it's still impossible. But it's about to say how, or why.

[Speaker 2]
Or not, or he just kind of is explaining like Arya and Nagarjuna mentioned that previously.

[Speaker 1]
Right, that's true. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
You know, that this is Arya and Nagarjuna's complaint based on their position.

[Speaker 1]
Would still be impossible.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, then it's impossible because he ain't got no body according to them.

[Speaker 1]
Right, right, right. So, to summarize, Nagarjuna's son, Nirvana, is seeing the emptiness of yourself. Yeah.

And then the other guy said, no, no, no. Nirvana is when you blink out.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, and this is the fight. Yeah. Okay, and then now he said, look, no more starting means no more future birth.

You blinked out. And we say, no, no. No more starting means...

Instant by instant, your body is not starting from its own side. It's starting from your seeds. Okay.

Okay, got it? Yeah. As much as I can.

Okay. Good luck. Better you than me.

SAKSHIPURUKHI CHUKSHIMEDHO TRAM RIRAMLINGCHI NIMDE GENPANI SANGYE SHINGDU MIKTE UWAR GYI ROKUN NANGAR SHINGLA JUPAR SHOK IRAMGURU RANGAMANDALAKAM NIYATAYAMI DIHIKHE ROKUN SUMMA MESHE SOGSOK SHING SUMMA MESHE REGSU NANGAR KULDI THOBAR SHOK Shogi, shogi. Thank you, Geshe-la. Whoa.

Thanks for struggling with the text. You know, you just... Sometimes you just gotta sit with the text for a few weeks.

And then Sunday you wake up and you say, Oh, obviously.