Классика Алмазного огранщика: Верхний Срединный путь — Великие книги мудрости, занятие 40

[Speaker 2]
Dear Guru Nanak, Shree Ikhlas Gurbakshu,

[Speaker 1]
Nidam guru ram namandala kam nirvayatayami Sange chudham sokhi jog nama

[Speaker 2]
Yam chu bardu dhammida psuchi Dakhi chun yin gyi pe sunam gyi

[Speaker 1]
Drola vincir sange drupar shok Sange chudham sokhi jog nama

[Speaker 2]
Yam chu bardu dhammida psuchi Dakhi chun yin gyi pe sunam gyi

[Speaker 1]
Drola vincir sange drupar shok Sange chudham sokhi jog nama Yam chu bardu dhammida psuchi Dakhi chun yin gyi pe sunam gyi Drola vincir sange drupar shok Talk about your text first.

All right. Tell these guys about your text. Hey, you guys.

Oh, there you are. So this is a text that is a commentary on a 60-verse poem by Arya Nagarjuna. You guys heard of Nagarjuna, probably.

He wrote a poem called 60 Verses on Reasoning that are explaining why the lower schools of Buddhism, meaning the listeners and self-made Buddhists, or the lesser vehicle for Theravada, why they already accept the true views of emptiness, what we consider the true views, which are the higher school's views, Middle Way. And he is credited as being the founder of the Middle Way philosophy. And so he's showing them that they already accept the truest explanation of emptiness.

And Yeltsin J., one of Je Tsongkhapa's greatest disciples, who's very difficult to understand, wrote a commentary on those 60 verses. Oh, can you fill him in? I realize that.

But you know all this about my book. You can just fill him in. Nagarjuna and Yeltsin J.

60 Verses on Reasoning, proving that the lower schools already accept the higher school's perspective on emptiness. One of the differences between the Buddhist schools, maybe the most important difference, is how they think about emptiness. So he's going to try to prove to them that the Buddha did teach them emptiness, they just didn't get it.

Homework time. I'd like to talk apart now.

[Speaker 2]
Just kidding.

[Speaker 1]
All the build-up to this, we've been covering it together here upstairs and downstairs, so why not solidify it in our minds? Give, where is Dr. Smith? We're going to need you if you want.

Give three ways of presenting the two parts of the path of seeing. Each one, we'll do it in English and then Tibetan for each one. You guys know.

Say that again? Yeah. She's also a language freak.

You're going to be in trouble. What does nyam shak mean? Emptiness?

Yeah, cool.

[Speaker 2]
Did this number just come up, or what's the other number?

[Speaker 1]
Jetot yenshe. All right, okay. Well, I'm not going to highlight that one yet because it comes after the others in my thing here.

Anybody, any others? Any other ways of dividing the two parts of the path of seeing? Parche lam lam shul lam.

Yeah. Parche mey lam.

[Speaker 2]
Parche mey lam. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Which means?

[Speaker 2]
The uninterrupted path.

[Speaker 1]
Namyam.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Where you're already free of those three things. Okay, third one? This is the one that came up.

[Speaker 2]
That's difficult.

[Speaker 1]
Chu ku and chu shui. Close. Chu shui and chu shui.

Chu shui and chu shui. Which means? Chu shui.

Shui is parche mey lam. Yeah. Well, I agree with parche mey lam.

Yeah. He seemed to be equating it with seeing the Dharma, but, yeah, mastery. Cool.

Chu shui, chu shui, chu shui. And then you guys already said the other one, higher meditation and the aftermath. Okay, cool.

Cool. So somebody can tell the people who can't read Tibetan, what that word says. Obstacle.

Good. What kind of obstacles? Shades.

Omniscience. Yeah. What stops you from knowing all things?

Are shade drips, they're called shade drips in Tibetan, obstacles to omniscience. Are they eliminated on the third path of the greater way, or during the path of habituation? Thank you.

Tim always busts out. Wait, what's the trick? Why, Tim, is it a trick question?

[Speaker 2]
I saw your website.

[Speaker 1]
That's a good skill.

[Speaker 2]
The path of habituation doesn't remove the obstacles.

[Speaker 1]
That's a really good, I didn't put an answer nearly as sophisticated as that. He says neither. Hopefully we'll find out more today.

Oh boy. I have a Tibetan one for you.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, there's a little bit more. That doesn't make me feel hopeful.

[Speaker 1]
There's a little bit more in the next question. Tibetan, this one's easy, so if you know it, don't answer.

[Speaker 2]
Like I like to say. Problematic.

[Speaker 1]
Tek chen tong pao.

[Speaker 2]
Tek chen you get rid of during the liquid wave.

[Speaker 1]
Path of seeing.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. During which path? Path of seeing.

Good. Path of seeing on the greater way. You got a hundred extra points.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you give him a hundred bucks.

[Speaker 2]
Not ducks, bucks.

[Speaker 1]
I've got twenty-five right here. Next one. Alright, so following up on that question, explain the reasonings that Gyaltsabje gives, and I'll give you a hint, one of them is supremely unsatisfying so far.

Explain the reasonings that Gyaltsabje gives for why each of the two options are wrong. What's the options?

[Speaker 2]
What two options?

[Speaker 1]
Are they eliminated on the third path of the greater way, or are the shade drips eliminated on the third path of the greater way, or are they eliminated during the path of the situation? So let's start one by one. If they're eliminated on the third path of the greater way, what's a problem that he says?

If they're eliminated on the third path of the situation? Yeah, you'd be a Buddha at the third path. That's a good answer, but that's not what Gyaltsabje gives as reasoning.

He's too complicated. He is too complicated. He says, the fact that a listener, Arya, has not given up these obstacles is thrown into question.

[Speaker 2]
That's unsatisfying.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, the next one's even more unsatisfying. But this is like, I put this because it brings us back where we're at in the text, right exactly where we left off. We're confused as we were last time.

I don't know what's going on. Gyaltsabje just said, like, is it here that these are given up, or is it here that they're given up, these shade drips? And he's like, well, it can't be there, because then it would call into question whether a listener, Arya, has not given up those obstacles.

Okay. Called it into question. He doesn't even say it wouldn't be the case.

Then he says, for the other one, things we get rid of on the path of seeing, he says, would become, would, would become, things we get rid of on the path of habituation, supremely unsatisfying. He did say that. So let's look at a picture of my dog.

[Speaker 2]
His new dog, new dog.

[Speaker 1]
Woldegogo. Woldegogo. Ah, Woldegogo.

What's Woldegogo? My, my little dog. Woldegogo.

Woldegogo. Okay. What's gogo mean?

Little doggy.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
Xiao. Now you take the plane to try to resolve this.

[Speaker 2]
Xiao gogo.

[Speaker 1]
Please, Lama, help us resolve some of these. Om mani padme hum. Okay.

Sorry about that. I just wanted to understand that, to see if everybody was as confused as me. Please read.

Ah. So just to bring our listeners up to date, Nagarjuna made a very controversial statement. And he said, nyang de korwa yong su shepa.

What's it mean? Really understanding, or understanding, figuring out samsara, is nirvana. Yeah.

See, samsara is suffering life, the wheel of life, suffering. Our suffering life is called samsara. And Nagarjuna said, if you understand it perfectly, that's nirvana.

To understand the trouble you're in, is to be free from the trouble you're in. It's very controversial. You know, that's all I have to do?

You know, I go to a Siddhagang's class, I reach nirvana. You know, if I understand... You don't have to go to next class.

You don't have to go to next class. Yeah. Okay, so that's a very controversial statement.

You know, which it kind of means, if you see emptiness directly, you're already nirvana, which is too early. It doesn't mean that. So, so, okay, here it says, by the way, sorry, it was missing.

That should wake them up. The word Luke was missing in this sentence, okay? That's a little irritating.

It was in the scan. It was in one of the scans. So, your version of nirvana, okay?

The way you want to say nirvana. Who's you? You lower school guys.

That's miktepa. Incorrect. Yeah, your nirvana is incorrect.

My nirvana is correct. Don't complain to me about my nirvana. Your nirvana is incorrect.

They're having a nirvana fight. And there's going to be two divisions to this fight, dorten and geshe. Brief and extensive.

Yeah, first he's just going to talk briefly about it, and then he's going to talk about details, okay? And here comes the verse. Uh-huh.

Okay. I'm just going to read the verse roughly, okay? And then we'll go to the commentary, okay?

So, this is Nagarjuna 2,000 years ago. One of the oldest books, and the grandfather of all emptiness teachings. Okay?

And he said, how do you stop suffering? How do you stop the Wheel of Life? You disappear.

Number jik. You just disappear. Your mind stops, your body stops, okay?

You reach nirvana, you just disappear. Who's school? Yeah, it's the guys he's fighting with.

They say, when you disappear— Stanley, Abhidharma definition of nirvana, bhem rik gyun chepa. She says, you want to know about Nevada? We know about Nevada, it's okay.

Definition— That's amazing. She didn't learn Abhidharma. Definition of nirvana, bhem rik gyun chepa.

What's it mean? Bhembo, and rikpa, gyun chepa.

[Speaker 2]
You cut off all the...

[Speaker 1]
All physical parts of you, and all mental parts of you. And that's the definition of nirvana, in the low, low, low school. And that's—you heard that before, you know?

Some—like in Japan or something, you know? Reach nirvana, you just disappear, you know? Go borrow a lot of money, then get to nirvana.

[Speaker 2]
You don't have to...

[Speaker 1]
You don't have to pay. You just disappear, you know? Okay?

So he said, number jikpe go gyur kyi. If cessation, meaning our heart, nirvana, is to be destroyed, okay? Then who is it?

Oh, sorry. It's... Sorry.

Cessation is when you are destroyed, but the key, okay? But it's not through understanding, change, produce things, which means suffering. Samsara.

Here it's a synonym for samsara. So who said that? They said, but it's not just by knowing suffering.

Who's talking? It's still the lower school talking. It's...

Well, no, the first two, it's lower school talking. Look, you get to nirvana by disappearing. It's not by seeing emptiness, okay?

That's their school. No, it's by understanding totally, produce things, which means the emptiness of samsara.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
By understanding samsara. That's... Your statement is kuku.

That's not nirvana, okay? Then... Then Nagarjuna comes back with, yeah, so you like disappear when you reach nirvana, right?

Okay? Then he says, who reached nirvana?

[Speaker 2]
Yes, sumit.

[Speaker 1]
Who reached nirvana? Because nobody left. Okay?

Okay? How can you have arhat? Now, now, now, he asked a good question.

He said, what was the Sanskrit? Here's your answer. Okay, this text has never been found in the Sanskrit.

There's a scholar in Beijing who found pieces, and he gave them to us. And we have about half of it. But we're missing about half.

So it doesn't exist anymore. So we cannot check the Sanskrit, okay? All we have is the Tibetan, and the Chinese.

Okay, so... So that's a funny question. Here's Nagarjuna coming back.

Who reaches nirvana? Okay, because you're gone, right? So, literally he's saying, who directly reaches that?

Yeah, who actualizes. It means who reaches. You know?

Because a shikpa, how could they do it? A destroyed person? Yeah, how could someone who's gone reach nirvana, right?

Okay? And by the way, here's the Tenggyur version. Shik.

Okay, and they took out the B. Okay, so Gyaltsabje is using a different ancient translation. And later he's going to defend that B.

Just, I'm just pointing it out. Because later he's going to defend his B. Okay?

And, it's interesting that the she is illegal in any case. After ka, if you're going to say quote mark, it's got to be che. So this is already an illegal spelling.

So it's, the whole thing here is a little uncomfortable. Something's corrupt about it. Yeah, something's uncomfortable.

And we don't have the Sanskrit to check. You see? We could use the Chinese, and Stanley would look it up.

Okay. I need a time machine. Here we go.

Please read. che dang phur thewa kut me che chi me phak me mi thepa thong phak che mi thepa pak mi ki selwa dun pha phong Okay. che dang phur means the first half of, the first half of the verse, which in Tibetan is two lines, and in Sanskrit is a single line.

So the first half here. It's interesting he didn't say the first two lines.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, because he's... Oh, because he's Sanskrit. Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
No, he's smart. He says the first half. He doesn't say the first line or the first two lines, because it's different length.

Yeah. Okay. He's a logician.

Uh-huh. The first half...

[Speaker 2]
He wants his commentary to work.

[Speaker 1]
...is giving a telgir.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Uh-huh.

He doesn't mean it.

[Speaker 1]
Nick, explain what's a telgir with relation to bananas being yellow. Okay. Can I just give one?

I guess, so, consider fruits. Good. Keep coming.

He's going to give you, this is a kind of logic. They're all red. Oh, so I guess bananas are red.

That's all. The other guy said, every fruit in the world is red.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
And you don't say, no, no, that's wrong. You say, oh, I understand. So, bananas are red, right?

It's a sarcastic logic. We call sarcastic logic. And it's very famous in Buddhism.

And he's the best one. So, somebody comes to you and says, every fruit in the world is red color. And you say, oh, I understand.

So, bananas are red, right? And it's just you fight with him by being sarcastic, you know. You say to your wife, let's go to Japanese restaurant tonight.

It's really good, you know. And she says, yeah, the food we sat there for three days. It's good, right?

She doesn't say I don't want to go. She doesn't say it's not a good restaurant. She says, oh, it's so yummy.

When they made the sushi three days ago. It's just great, you know. It's like sarcastic fighting, okay?

Wives are really good at it. Okay. So, here we go.

So, he said, the first half of this verse is a sarcastic statement. Okay. And, and the second half has two subjects.

The second half has two subjects. Number one, the first half of the second half is talking about BHAG MEN YANG DE. So, nirvana where nothing is left and nirvana where you still have something left are two famous divisions of nirvana.

Okay, explain the controversy about those two divisions. I'll say it again. Everybody agrees, every Buddhist agrees, there's two kinds of nirvana.

In one kind, you still have something left. In the other kind, you don't have anything left. But they have a disagreement.

Explain what the two schools say. Lower school. According to the lower schools, when you achieve nirvana, you cut the flow of your mental and physical stuff, so then there's nothing left.

Well, a little bit higher than that. Oh, are you talking about... You can cut out the tumor.

Oh, okay. But the brain will still be there. Well, there's a disagreement in the mind-only school.

No, no, we're not going there.

[Speaker 2]
We're not going there.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Lower school would say, first, you stop all your negative emotions, but you still have a body. And then your body gets old and then it dies.

And then you reach nirvana with nothing left. Okay? Got it.

Now, the higher school... First you achieve... When you get to the direct perception of emptiness, at that moment you have achieved nirvana with nothing left, and then you come back, and then there's something left.

So the disagreement is about which one you achieve first. And in the lower schools, they say that first you achieve nirvana with something left over, and then you get to nothing left over. And in the higher school, they say that first you achieve something with nothing left over, and then you come back...

Yeah, okay. ...nirvana with nothing left over, and then you come back, and then you have nirvana with something left over. So, in the lower school, you got rid of your anger, but you still have a body produced by anger, okay?

And it's going to die, okay? It's not good. But you got rid of the anger, then you won't have to do that again.

You will be free when you die. That's the lower school. Higher school, when you see emptiness directly, you're not having other thoughts.

So, that's nothing left. And then, when you come out, and you start thinking about all those things we talked about today, you come back to having stuff. So, they say the order is reversed.

First nothing, then something. Lower school, first something, then nothing. Okay, got it?

Nirvana with something in the lower school means you still have a body. Nirvana with nothing in the lower school means you got rid of your body, you died, okay? In the higher school, perceiving emptiness without wrong ideas is nothing left.

And that comes first. Then you come out, you come back to reality, you sell your car. During that time, you are having regular thoughts again.

So, it's this way, okay? No, but that's how they explain it. Because according to Nagarjuna...

Yeah, seeing emptiness directly, seeing samsara's nature directly is nirvana. Okay, got it? Now...

So, the second half of the verse has two parts. The first part of the second half says, your idea of nirvana without remainder is wrong. And the second half of the second part says, your idea about nirvana with leftover is wrong, okay?

And he's going to do it with a selva. Selva, it's like the reason in the... Yeah, or is it the assertion in the Tantra?

You can say it's the... It's the third part of the logic.

[Speaker 2]
It's the drupcha.

[Speaker 1]
It is, okay. Okay, okay. Let's take bananas.

They must be red because they are fruit, okay? Let's take bananas. They must be red because they are fruit.

Okay, yes, it must be red. So, in a normal syllogism, one plus two is what you're trying to prove. In a sarcastic statement, one plus two is what you're trying to deny.

Selva, clean it. You're trying to say selva, okay? So, it's called the selva...

Yeah, don't tell me all fruits are red. Oh, no, the reason is called the selva. Exactly, yeah.

Which is exactly the selja. You want to remove this idea. Take a banana, it must be red, right?

Why do you say that? Because it's a fruit. And you said all fruits that are yellow are red.

Is the prasannika a selja? For the third part, is it selja? Ah, they don't talk like that.

You could say that. You could say that. There is no text which clearly breaks down the parts of the text.

I know, we looked for it. We tried. It's just something you have to learn.

Anyway, the selva here is the sarcastic statement. Oh, bananas are red?

[Speaker 2]
I guess they're red. You're trying to prove that you don't believe.

[Speaker 1]
Exactly.

[Speaker 2]
Trying to show that they can't believe.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so I tried to write them out for you. I took two attempts. One was a few days ago, and one was this morning.

I like Mr. Yeh's idea about doing important things when your mind is clear. There's certain times of the day when I try to do more important things, because it takes less time. Because your mind is more clear.

My mind is more clear. I understand what he's talking about, because my mind is more clear in the morning. I always translate in the morning.

I never translate in the afternoon. What he's saying is, pick your time carefully. You can get more done, and you manage your time better.

So anyway, I like it. I agree. So I did the translation again this morning, with coffee and sleep.

Okay, the two important things.

[Speaker 2]
Your boss thinks clearly in the morning, but you think differently.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. So here's my attempt at the sarcasm. Here's my attempt at the sarcasm.

Okay, ready? Let's take nirvana. Are you telling me it's not achieved through a perfect knowledge of producing things, which means through understanding samsara's emptiness?

And he says, why do you say that? Because the cessation, meaning nirvana, okay, I'm using his language, is accomplished, mungyur, through the complete destruction of the heaps, which he refers to as the destruction of the flow of produced things. And then he says, yes, I agree.

Okay, I agree. So are you telling me, that seeing the true nature of samsara is not nirvana? Okay, you be lower school, I'll be higher school.

Is that what you're telling me? Yep. Okay, good.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Then you say, then I say, why do you say that? You say, well, nirvana means you disappear. Yeah.

It's not understanding emptiness. You just disappear, that's nirvana. That seems to be what he's implying or saying.

Okay. Then you're the other guy, okay, you say, yeah, that's what nirvana is. You disappear.

That's right. Then I say, oh, so I guess there's no one gets nirvana, right? Bananas are red, right?

You see, it's sarcastic. Okay, got it? He said, what?

Yeah, your body and mind disappear. Then I say, oh, that's too bad, because there's nobody left to reach nirvana. Okay, got it?

That's a sarcasm. That does seem... I mean, just reading the verse, that's the flavor of the verse.

That totally... Yeah, and there's nobody there at all, you see? This is two selvas.

This is selva for nirvana when the remainder comes first. I think he's making a point. In his verse, he's sarcastic first about nirvana without remainder, which is how the higher school sense comes first.

Oh, get it? Nagarjuna. And then he criticizes nirvana with remainder.

You would expect him to do it the other way. Yeah, because he's trying to prove it to them, and he just seems like a wilder kind of guy. It's cute.

He's being cute. Okay, so now we get commentary by Gyaltsabje, which is usually more difficult than the impossible verse. Okay, and the black, black parts are Nagarjuna's own words.

Okay. Go. Gyalta.

Okay. Okay. So, when all your five heaps, which Adam just gave you, Adam's text just gave you the five, all these texts are going to support each other.

Okay? We just had in Adam's book the five parts of a person. We just had it.

What are they? Physical, feelings, discrimination, other stuff, and your mind. Okay?

Then it says, they all ji. They all get destroyed. And then he gives an apposition.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. They're destroyed.

[Speaker 1]
They go away. They go away. Okay?

That's what we mean by... Nothing left. Yeah.

And he glosses cessation as nirvana. You see? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, when I say, stop, I mean nirvana. Okay? Nirvana.

[Speaker 2]
Cessation with nothing left. Nirvana.

[Speaker 1]
So, are you telling me that's nirvana? What? When all your stuff disappears?

When all of nic disappears? Are you telling me that's nirvana? Uh-huh.

Is bananas red? Okay, got it? Okay, got it?

Uh-huh. He's starting with the sarcasm. Oh, I guess that's nirvana, right?

Why? Next line. phukpo yukhyam nirmong sepa lak che sukham Because you say, nirvana with remainder is...

uh... nirmong, so the extinguishing of your mental afflictions. Even though you still have...

uh, heaps. Yeah, the rest of you is still there. According to you, you still got a body.

Uh-huh. You still got a mind. Uh-huh.

But you... you cut the tumor out. Oh, so now he's doing phuk che.

Yeah. And that's according to you. Uh-huh.

Nirvana with... you can reach nirvana, and then for twenty more years, you walk around in that old lousy body, which was... which is still...

the seeds are still there. You... you make no new seeds.

And when the body dies, you'll be free. Okay? So that's what you call nirvana with...

remains or... I like to call it with something left over.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
You still got some stuff. Yeah. So since there's a tell followed by a tell, what I throw in...

This is called tel-pung.

[Speaker 2]
It's tel-pung. This is called tel-pung.

[Speaker 1]
This is called piling up tells.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Tel-pung. Oh, oh, yeah. It's coming.

Old sushi must be delicious. Uh, old... Old rice.

Old rice must be delicious. Uh, old sake must be wonderful. Old, you know...

You pile them up. Your wife... It's like when you talk to your wife.

It's just... You're saying, oh, yeah, old, old... And expensive prices must be wonderful.

And, uh, an inconvenient location must be nice. And no parking spot must be nice. And...

She just... It's called a tel-pung. You pile them up.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
So in this case, what I say, like, or is it that the body is left still, like, once you... I just say and. And.

And.

[Speaker 2]
And.

[Speaker 1]
When you finish off all your negativities and your body is still hanging around. But right before that, he just said, when all your stuff disappears. This is general nirvana.

General description of nirvana. But now, if you divide it into nirvana, while you still have something left over. Oh, it's like a zen?

Like a progression in time? Uh, kind of. He just says, oh, that must be the definition of nirvana, right?

Yeah. And it must have two parts, right? Yeah.

And one part must be left over something. Yeah. What's left over?

Your body. Okay. Okay, got it?

Yep. But you, but, you and your monks are sick. Yep.

Extinguished. Okay. Lei, Nyo, Mong.

I guess I gotta read that part. Uh, Lei, Nyo, Mong, Rang, Sen, Pei, Gyu, Gen, Se, Kyu. Yeah, you can say, just go here.

You ready? Yep. Lei, Nyo, Mong, Rang, Sen, Pei, Gyu, Gen, Se, Pei, Kyu, Po, Lar, Mi, Kye, We, Nyan, Re, Sun, Kyok, Pei, Kyir.

Yeah, and, and if we go to words text, Yeah. we had Lar, Mi, Kye, We, Po, Kyok, Gen, and we had Gok, Pei, Kyur, Gen, but Lar, Mi, Kye, We means, the thing stops because of lack of fuel. Okay.

Oh yeah. The thing stops because of lack of fuel. No more negativities, no more hatred, no more desire, no more jealousy, and your body has to wear out.

Something has to wear out. You cut off the fuel. Okay?

You cut off the fuel. Okay? You cut off the conditions.

No more fertilizer, no more sunlight, no more water. It doesn't matter if the seed's there, it's not going to grow, okay? That's called nirvana.

That's the kind of nirvana, okay? Okay, got it? What's...what did you cut off? Gyus and khyent. You cut off the seeds, and you cut off the fertilizer, the sunlight, and the water, the conditions. You cut off the main seed, you took the seed out of the ground, and you cut off all the conditions that help it to grow.

You cut off both. But, listen, listen, listen. According to you, those causes and those conditions are rang gyi tsen gyi gyur drub pa.

Yeah, that's the problem. That's the problem. You want to talk about a seed which comes from its own side.

You want to talk about a pen that comes from its own side. You want to say nirvana is when you cut off conditions and causes that are coming this way. So, here you're saying that karma and afflictions come from their own side?

Yeah, self-existing karma, self-existing mental afflictions. You finish them, and then the heaps can grow. So, gyur khyent is a...

It's laya-nyoma, very famous. Yeah, very famous. The two fuels for suffering.

The bad things you did to other people in the past, and your negativity thoughts that are going to make you do more bad things. Cut those two off, you got to nirvana. Unless those two things are coming from their own side, because that...

a pen which comes from its own side, it never existed. Okay? That's what's wrong with your nirvana.

Got it? He's complaining to them, okay? You want nirvana to be something that comes this way.

It comes from you. It comes from here. See it in your mind.

[Speaker 2]
It's the same as a pen.

[Speaker 1]
He's being a little clear-ish. Ah, don't worry. And then he's saying that la-nyi-kye-way, kun-po, la-nyi-kye-way.

So, you're saying the heaps are cut off because of lack of fuel, that's the nirvana that you're positing? Yeah, exactly. That's what you call nirvana.

Okay. Now, go ahead. Ah, du-je-rang shing-yi kye-me ku-yong-su she-pe, nyan-me sung-gyor-wa nim-pa-tel.

Nim-pa-tel. So, if shutting off two self-existent causes is what nirvana means, according to you, right? If shutting off two self-existent causes is what nirvana is, then are you telling me, that if you understand the true nature of samsara, that's not nirvana?

You're the other guy. You're the other guy. I'll say it again.

Look, according to you, right? You shut off these two causes, which come from their own side, and that's nirvana? Is that what you're saying?

Okay, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, and then you're saying, if you see the true nature of samsara, that's not nirvana? Why would you say that? No, you should say, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Okay, yeah, right. Got it? Who said, understanding the emptiness of samsara is nirvana?

That's our side, yeah. So, if you stay together, you get hot, you know. Are you telling me, to cut off two self-existing causes, is what nirvana is, you say?

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. And, and, oh, and you're saying, seeing the emptiness of samsara is not nirvana? Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Look, cima cinta dur. I, I super agree.

I super agree. Yeah, this crap about seeing emptiness directly is nirvana. Come on.

Who ever got to nirvana ten minutes after they saw emptiness?

[Speaker 2]
You know.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. Okay, he's back happy. Yeah, that's fine with me.

That's fine with me. Okay, got it? Yep.

All right, that's fine with me. De la lak che mi tepe tawa pemba yin no. De la lak che mi tepe tawa pemba yin no.

Okay, so then. So, nirvana with something left over is incorrect. Tawa pemba, because I just proved it to you.

Yeah, this is confusing. You got to read my notes. You might notice that the notes are more than the text.

Uh-huh. Okay. That's a lot.

That's a little tricky. Let's go on. Let's just go on, okay?

Tepe che kyu me chen na. Yeah, tepe che kyu me chen na. If I agree with your statement, it's like, are you telling me the end of self-existing causes is nirvana?

Yes. Yes? Are you telling me, understanding the emptiness of sansara is not nirvana?

Yeah, I ain't got no problem with that. Tepe che kyu me chen. I agree with everything.

No problem. Takme kyu nyam de teni. Teni.

Teni. Takme. Yeah.

Then, we come back with... Now, this is our comeback. Ah, sulabhan sum tu kirtan.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Can you just clarify for me? Who is it that achieves nirvana? Yeah, what's in our heart.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's someone who reached nirvana, if they disappear? Now, it's us talking.

We come back.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
It's incorrect to say that someone can reach nirvana? Yeah, you come back to me with tepe che kyu me. Yeah, I agree with everything you said.

Then we say, oh, you agree? Well, I got a problem with you. I guess it's incorrect that someone achieves nirvana.

Yeah. Who is it? Sula.

Who is it that gets nirvana? Uh-huh. You know?

Okay, who is that? He's still being sarcastic. Ngun sum tu chepa po.

That's the direct realizer of nirvana. Yeah, yeah. Who got to nirvana, please?

Yeah, yeah. Mi te. I can't say anybody.

Yeah, what are you talking about? Yeah. That's nirvana.

Who gets to nirvana? Uh-huh. There's no one to get to nirvana.

Okay, chepa po me.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Nge... Nge...

Nyang de ngun sum tu che. Nge... What's that much mean?

Nge... Nyang de ngun sum tu che. Don't look at my notes.

Uh... I achieved nirvana. Nge...

Nyang de... Yeah. Who's going to say to their friends, I achieved nirvana?

They're gone. They disappeared. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Who... Who's going to say, quote...

This is a quotation, I did it.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Come on. Okay. Who's going to say, che so, tai ni mite.

It would be incorrect to say the words. Yeah, the sentence doesn't make sense.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I did it. That sentence is illegal.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Why? Because there's no I. There's no mouth to say it.

[Speaker 2]
Right. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Mite. The word itself is wrong.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I did it. Who... Who did what?

Okay, okay, come on!

[Speaker 2]
Mite.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Okay, keep going. Kyaw che ki me ka na ni phung pa ma luk pa rak pa may pae un me du ha me du cha kyu gyu may pea Gefühl It's okay, listen.

Before your body disappears, you still got a body. Yeah. Okay, no problem.

There's a remainder, there's a pufff. You achieve nirvana, your body goes on. Later it dies.

Don't tell me there's no mount. Okay? My system is, nirvana has two paths.

You reach nirvana, and you hang out in your body for a while. That's called having remainder. Then you die, and then there's nothing left.

That's our way. That's no problem. Okay?

Right? So you still have suffering, right? In nirvana.

Yeah, you still got suffering? A guy who reached nirvana still has suffering? He's saying there's two steps in nirvana.

You reach nirvana, you hang out in your suffering body, which is called with remainder. Then you die, and then you reach nirvana with no remainder. Then we say, if you disappear, then who reaches nirvana?

He says, no problem. There's this period where you still got a body. Then we say, oh, no problem.

A guy who reached nirvana still got suffering. Still in samsara. I like it.

Got it? Can you explain it from the... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Not taking that neck up now. Oh no, no problem. There's this gap between, you reach nirvana and you die.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
That's called nirvana with remainder. You still got a body. Oh, you still got all your heaps, huh?

They haven't stopped yet. Then, what kind of nirvana have you achieved? Okay?

So, what was the first criticism? There's no one to achieve nirvana. What's the second criticism?

There ain't no nirvana to be achieved. So, nobody achieved nothing. I got it.

It's a joke in Bombay. Mumbai? Okay.

There's a famous joke in the diamond business. Diamond business is big in Mumbai. Then, this was taught to me by a seven-year-old.

Geshe-la, let me tell you a joke. Yeah, tell me a joke. There's three guys.

There's three guys, they're friends. You know, what's the name? Oh, one guy named somebody.

One guy named nobody. And the third guy named crazy. Then I'm like, okay.

And his father is a famous diamond dealer. He's like, you understand? I'm like, no, I don't understand.

He said, well, but they got in a fight one day. Oh, what happened? Oh, terrible fight.

They had a big fight. There's violence, everything going on. Then what happened?

One of them called the police. What did he say? I got to report something.

What? Somebody killed nobody. Tell me, what did the police say?

Are you crazy?

[Speaker 2]
How do you know? How do you know?

[Speaker 1]
Why am I talking about that?

[Speaker 2]
Come on.

[Speaker 1]
Nobody achieved nothing. Nobody achieved nothing. What?

Well, first of all, there's nobody. Why? Because you blink out when you achieve nirvana.

No, no, it's not like that. You achieve nirvana, then you have a suffering body for a while. And then the suffering body dies, and then you have nirvana.

Oh, so being in a suffering body is nirvana? It sounds to me like nobody achieved no nirvana. That's Gyaltsabje.

He's so cool.

[Speaker 2]
He's so cool.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's very difficult.

[Speaker 2]
It's very difficult. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, I got it. So, nobody killed somebody. Yeah, okay.

I got it. Yeah. Nobody, who's left after nirvana, achieved a nirvana, where you're still suffering, right?

And that's nirvana? Yep. So, we're criticizing both, the achiever, and what they achieved.

Got it? Nobody kills nobody. Okay?

Got it? I got it. So, ngundu cha gyu, right?

That thing which is achieved, okay? Ngundu cha gyu, me. There's no nirvana, because you still have suffering.

No, no, you don't have suffering. Okay, then there's nobody left. Why are they calling it gyu?

Cha gyu means to be achieved.

[Speaker 2]
It's future tense.

[Speaker 1]
Future tenserizer. Yeah, don't forget. Did they take your money?

Stop doing that. That is not a thing to be done. It's the future participle.

[Speaker 2]
So, if it's a thing to be done, cha gyu, then it's not reasonable to say they did something.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, ngundu cha gyu, maybe, sure. If there's nothing to achieve, why are you working to achieve nirvana?

[Speaker 2]
Chepa nite.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you can just relax. Got it? Now, here's our other problem.

If you mean Lakme Cup, oh, I'm talking about when you have nothing left over. Well, in that case, there's no chepa po. Yeah, we already talked about that.

So, there's nothing to achieve, and there's no one to achieve it. Got it? Yeah.

Yeah. Now, now, Rangluk. Let's do one more sentence.

Rangluk, Rangluk, read. ko chak la nye pa me te, pakpa sharipu la, sokpe rangshin kye me khingo, pakpe te, ngundu chupa che. Ko chak means us guys.

Us guys. We ain't got the problems, you guys. Who's talking?

Nagarjuna. Well, we don't got your problems.

[Speaker 2]
Why?

[Speaker 1]
Nye pa me, we don't got any of those problems. Why? Because Shariputra, who's the hero of the...

[Speaker 2]
Heart Sutra.

[Speaker 1]
Heart Sutra, okay. He reached nirvana, which was perceiving directly the fact that things cannot start on their own. Okay?

He saw emptiness, and that's how he reached nirvana. And the cute thing, super cute thing, okay? I'm just going to go ahead, okay?

We start quoting a... where is that? We start quoting a scripture, which is called this, in about two pages.

chen de che cha... oh. Where is the name of it?

sharipu yin... Read it. che de che cha...

che che do de ni... sharipu yin yang yin deng, neng du che ne she pa yin... $100...

$200 question. $200 question.

[Speaker 2]
Translate it correctly. Wait, wait, wait.

[Speaker 1]
Think about it first. Okay, $200. Diamond recitation.

Yeah. In the sutra, it's called the diamond recitation. Where did you get diamond?

Oh, je. Sorry, je. Jason Dawa.

Yeah. Oh, after the... Verb, dawa.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah. The recitation is there. It says there that Shariputra directly achieved nirvana.

He experienced nirvana. Neng du, directly.

[Speaker 1]
Come on. You can give us about a 50 cent answer, if you have it. One dollar answer.

Did he directly? Did he directly realize?

[Speaker 2]
I'll give you a clue.

[Speaker 1]
No, I won't. By the way, this is the colophon of an actual sutra. This sutra, which is named, spoken afterwards.

Oh, and then Shariputra... This was spoken after Shariputra achieved nirvana. Yeah, by whom?

By Shariputra.

[Speaker 2]
By Shariputra. Yeah, right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, don't give me this shit about nirvana with no remembrance. The sutra's name is spoken by Shariputra after he achieved nirvana. Don't give me this crap.

Don't tell me the guy who's up there, he spoke a sutra after that. And the sutra's called afterwards. And this is the lower school sutra.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, it is? Okay, that's nice. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's cool. I'll give you a hundred bucks. Ah, that's okay.

That's okay, catch up. I wouldn't even know what the heck was going on. I went looking for it.

It is quoted in the Tengyur, it doesn't exist anymore. No, I'll give you 50%. So, it's going to the mix now.

Okay, don't give me this stuff about he disappeared, he was around to recite the sutra afterwards. Okay? Yeah.

Cool. Thanks, Geshe-la. By the way, that sentence is impossible, but we'll get there.

The whole thing. Although, some of this is somewhat clear compared to the whole rest of the text. Don't worry, it gets less clear.

[Speaker 2]
Where are we?

[Speaker 1]
Somewhat, anyway. Okay, so, there's no problem with our position, because Shariputra achieved the one we're talking about. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
SAKSHIPUTI CHUSHING VEDO KHAM RIGA VINCI Thanks, Geshe-la.

[Speaker 1]
Nice.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you. Awesome.

[Speaker 1]
Really quite good. Yeah.