Классика Алмазного огранщика: Верхний Срединный путь — Великие книги мудрости, занятие 39

[Speaker 1]
Okay. And, uh... kyelte chushe juktoksu.

Say, kyelte... kyelte chushe juktoksu. And, unless you know, if you don't know, you'll never...

it'll seem confusing. He's quoting the text to come. And here's the text to come.

Oh, sorry. I'm like, showing everybody everything. Okay, so here it is in Gyaltsabje.

He starts the paragraph, kyelte chushe juktoksu. kyelte chushe juktoksu. But you gotta understand that it comes later in the text, okay, in verse twelve, which we're not at yet.

And it's, uh... here it is. And, uh...

And here is Gyaltsabje's verse. Gyaltsabje's version. Because we noted that his and the Tengyur version are slightly different.

So, then to understand chushe, you have to know chusuk. So we started talking about the two things that happened in the past.

[Speaker 2]
So chusuk...

[Speaker 1]
Mastery? Yeah, chusuk means sometimes mastery. It doesn't mean patience all the time.

Okay. So chusuk is the parche melam. And chushe is the namdula.

Explain the difference. The parche melam, the uninterrupted path, is during the path of seeing, when you're seeing emptiness directly, and you're duking it out with your mental afflictions. Yeah, well, somehow, you're unaware of it.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And in the back of your mind, they're duking it out. Yeah, right. And then?

And then there's, sorry, namdrolam, which is the freedom path, which is where you're eliminating the obstacles permanently on the path to bodhichitta. Sorry. So while you're sitting around after seeing emptiness directly, and you're having all this bodhichitta experience and stuff, that's called chushe.

Or namdrolam. You know the thing. You already know the thing.

Or you're free. The battle's over. And they call it the scale.

You know? When you go into direct perception of emptiness, they start to fight. And then they go like this.

Wow. And then finally, the tongpangs, the three tongpangs disappear. So, don't forget the subject we're in.

When does nirvana happen? When does nirvana happen? And Nagarjuna made the drastic statement saying...

What happened? Well, he said that... Nirvana happens.

Nirvana is natural nirvana, which is emptiness. He didn't say it is. That's skeletonism.

But what did Nagarjuna equate... When you understand samsara doesn't come from its own side.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
When you understand the nature of samsara, you have reached nirvana. And then... So, that would mean...

You kind of reach nirvana at ksheset.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Right after you see emptiness directly. Okay? So, ikelte ksheset, juktoksu.

Juktoksu means right after. shesokyi drape, dzogsamsu. I take dzogsamsu as...

They're discussing what's the point at which you really complete arhatship. Okay? Dzogsam.

Means what's the point at which you really finish your nyangde, nirvana, arhatship. It's when the single meaning, or the single defining characteristic of dependence, which is emptiness. It's a famous joke.

And I think it's even in the opening lines here. Or when Tsongkapa says... He praises the Buddha for teaching dependence through emptiness.

sab dun gyi don ne, go ne. So, when you understand it with that one quality, jitawa shintoma de nyi. So, that's the point at which you know samsara.

That's the point at which you know the nature of samsara. You see the essence of dependent origination, which is emptiness. Okay?

And if you take that de nyi, and you rim gyi rim gyi rim gyi kom, keep meditating... Sometimes rim gyi can mean eventually, okay? Then at some point you will gakpa all your marikpa.

Okay? And really... And then...

[Speaker 2]
chen chenpa gyur ma nye rang chen...

[Speaker 1]
And then the wisdom, in which you perceive the real nature of samsara, of dependence, which is the nature of samsara, right? nepa nyi, becomes a tongway chur. A tongway chur has two meanings.

dursdara dursdara janma vedanya... Oh, this life or next life? Life?

This life or life you can't see? Yeah, seen in this life. Result, karmic result seen in this life.

Or it could be a pun on tonglam gyi chur. I'm thinking it is probably. I think he wants it to blur.

I think he's being cute. He says, thing you see. Which normally means, the karma is so strong it ripens within this lifetime.

You kill somebody important in this lifetime, you are murdered in this lifetime. Then we call it, tong chuk gi de bu. The result of the karma comes in this life.

There's three choices, right? Remember? Which is?

This life, this life, next life, or any other life after that. Yeah, okay. So he uses the word tong chur.

But it could mean something you saw during emptiness, during the path of seeing. Okay? Which is what we're discussing.

As a tong chur, nyang le de pa, you reach nirvana. And you reach chawa chepa. Chawa chepa, I done did it.

Yeah, yeah. Nyi du nam pa shak means, that's what we call arhatship. That's what we call arhatship.

Okay? Okay? And, nam pa shen du ni ma ye no.

Nothing else is arhatship. And this is a direct quotation from Chandrakirti. This whole thing.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? And that's why the language sounds old. And what he's saying is, real nirvana doesn't happen when you see the nature of samsara.

You have to keep meditating on it, and then eventually, rim kyi rim kyi, you will reach nirvana. So he said, don't get confused here. Nagarjuna is referring to natural nirvana.

And, it became the subject of a lot of misunderstanding. Everyone said, oh, see emptiness, you reach nirvana. Yep.

Okay. First day. Sure.

Okay, so now we've reached, I thought you might like to go to the verse and see what it says.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, cool.

[Speaker 1]
That he stole one line from. Okay. So here's verse twelve.

de nyi tong chen yang nyen de. Read.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
de nyi tong chen yang nyen de, de shing chawa chepa'ang yin. gal te choshe juk tok su, di la chedra yonani. And you can pick it up with, here, ngepo.

ngepo shintu chawa lang, gang gi kye war nam takpa, nam par mi kye de yin ni. kye le jungway tu ma tong. Okay.

And I made a note to myself, that Gyaltsabje's version makes more sense. It's a kind of a cool, you know, his translation version, which was not accepted into the Tengger, makes more sense, in my opinion, on this verse. Should I check if Je Tsongkapa has coded it that way?

It'd be cute, because oftentimes Je Tsongkapa will credit the translator. He'll mention the translator's name. He'll say, and I forget there's one that he really likes, I forget his name, but he often says, this Lodzawa is cool.

Okay. de ni tong chen nyang ngen de. As a thing seen, nirvana.

de shing chawa che pang yin. Is that real nirvana? Is that really the point when you say, I've done all I had to do?

Okay. kyel te chu she juk tok su. If it happens just after you see emptiness for the first time, during the path of seeing, de la che da yun na ni.

I don't know why he threw that in there. We'll have to get there. It says there's a difference, maybe, he's saying?

Maybe he's saying there's a difference between real nirvana and the nirvana that we say that you saw the nature of samsara. Okay. de la che da yun na ni.

ngupo shindru tawa lang. Then what's going to happen in this section coming up is that they're going to talk about really the first chapter of wisdom. Which is no coming, no going, no starting, no stopping.

And the process of starting and the process of stopping is going to be examined. And really, stopping just means something was there and then something was not there. And you...

and a... what do they call it? A luminous image comes out of your mind and glues them together into something called stopping.

You see, that's why Nagarjuna says there's no stopping, from his own side. The stopping, when the nuts are all gone, that's because the nuts were there and then the nuts were not there and I glued them together into the difference. And that's called stopping.

So, that's a label. Stopping is a label. Things don't stop from their own side.

[Speaker 2]
It seems like, given the appendix that we worked out, there's something really special about stopping in particular as opposed to starting or staying that the Middle Way focuses on.

[Speaker 1]
Why is it important here in our discussion? I said, I don't... I'm really quite fixated...

We're talking about nirvana. Stopping your mental afflictions. So, it's going to go off on a discussion of stopping.

So, ngopo shindru tarwa lang, even in a very subtle thing, which means mitapa, itself, impermanence itself. kang gi kyewar nam tappa, when you just label something starting, okay, that nam bar mi kye de yin ni, people who don't understand the process, kye le jungway dun ma tong, they don't see how it is that things come from causes. You know, they think it's natural.

But it's really two parts, you know, not there, and then there, glued together by the mind, okay? And it comes from us, and not from them, okay? Cool?

Very cool. Cool. Cool.

Cool. Cool. Cool.

Okay, so that's, you know, we're going to get the commentary on that later. But, he's pulled it, he's pulled the trigger ahead of time, because he needed, he wanted to use it. He wanted to reference the moments after the direct perception of emptiness, trishe, as opposed to trishas, okay?

And if you don't know what trishe means, you're in big trouble. If you haven't studied Abhidharma at that point, you're in trouble. You'll say, no, the Dharma, what's that?

You know, how many things here are like that, and we don't know?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I mean, hopefully we're getting most of them.

[Speaker 1]
I have a theory, no one's going to understand it more than someone who's been a Geshe for, you know, twenty years or something. let's just go for it. But probably, you know, a hundred years from now, they'll say, oh, I can't believe they didn't know what trishe was.

Okay, so, then I found that Dongchen Chenpo has some comments on it. I don't think we should pause. I don't think, looking at it, yeah.

I don't think we need to, yeah, no. By the way, here's some kappa in his commentary to the Lent again, explaining this line. You might want to look at that.

Do you want to look at that? No, I don't think. I think it's going to make it harder.

I think we'll let it go. But that commentary is famous because he was like twenty-five, and it's like a thousand pages. And, you know, the poop is that it's immature.

His thinking is not mature yet. And I believe it. Yeah.

You know, he was a little too ambitious, I think. And it's not used very much. People don't use it much.

It's technically correct, but it just doesn't seem like his later, more experienced writing. So, anyway. It's rare that we see a quotation from it.

This is Khenopjuri... No, this is... This is his own lekshe serteng.

It's called lekshe serteng. Like string of golden beads. And it's a little bit too much, okay?

I don't think it's going to help you. Then here's the commentary by Chandrakirti to your text, and this is where he has that discussion. Okay?

So you got the page number and everything. Okay? It's not a small discussion.

I mean, is there something specific that I'm going to need to put? I don't think so. Just be aware that that section has been taken from Chandrakirti.

And I like his commentary, and as I said before, if you don't have anything to do in your old age, you should translate that one. Because you'll be able to, probably.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Okay, here we go. Let's continue with the text. Please read.

... ... So the various kinds of misunderstandings, stopping them from jumping around, temporarily, ...

Anyway, ... Stopping the various kinds of misunderstandings. Yeah, all of them.

Malupa. All of them. All of them.

Is missing.

[Speaker 2]
It's impossible at that time.

[Speaker 1]
Mayan make-up.

[Speaker 2]
They can't do it temporarily. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It's impossible that they could temporarily stop. This is not the make-up that means temporarily.

[Speaker 2]
It means the point.

[Speaker 1]
At the time of achieving arhat, of achieving nirvana. It's not possible to eliminate all misunderstanding at any other point than dracomba. So don't tell me, ...

That you could do it at the trishe. At a point other than the arhat point. So it's two negatives here.

At the non-arhat point. Yeah, it's impossible. Okay, double negative.

It ain't possible at a point other than arhat that you will eliminate all your misunderstanding. So don't go thinking that it's literal here, that that's nirvana, when you see the nature of samsara. Don't forget where all this discussion came from.

Nagarjuna is saying what? Understanding samsara is nirvana. Yeah, when you see the emptiness of samsara, that's nirvana.

And technically it's not. Okay, and we had the Chinese Master said he's talking about natural nirvana. Right?

Dr. Stanley. That's going to go down in history. They should carve that on the wall here.

Because you're not going to say anything that intelligent for the next twenty years, I reckon. So, they should have a plaque on the wall, you know. Stanley called it natural nirvana.

It's special. Yes.

[Speaker 2]
It is the two husbands in the room, though, right?

[Speaker 1]
Say again?

[Speaker 2]
Like, at the tip of time, the two husbands, when you don't say anything, you just go wash the dishes?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's true, but rim-ki, rim-ki.

[Speaker 2]
Step by step.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you got to do the two husband things like ten thousand times. Yeah, that's right. Okay, all right, go.

jukpar jukpar gyun shuk hi pongwar pongwar shepe nyam mongchen hi marikpa tonglam ne separ pangso nyam na Yeah, I think you might want to read this line together with the last line. Okay. It looks like that, okay.

But let's do this part. jukpar jukpar, if you enter... It's a reference to a text.

Yeah, in the jukpar, in the Avatara, Madhyamaka Avatara, it says, jikta is eliminated by a ginshu.

[Speaker 2]
A person, no.

[Speaker 1]
An ayah. Someone who just saw emptiness has eliminated... Say again?

The first link, jikta. Okay, me or mine. Ignorance about me or mine.

Well, no, okay, we got to go there.

[Speaker 2]
Good point.

[Speaker 1]
Perfect point. Maybe you put your plaque under his. Because that was close.

That was almost as brilliant. jukpar jikta gyun shuk hi pongwar shepa It is said in the Avatara, Madhyamaka Avatara, that when you get to stream-enter, you eliminate me and mine, misunderstanding me and mine. Therefore, it must be the case that misunderstanding, which is involved with negative emotions, is separ here as an adverb means...

[Speaker 2]
Oh, well, we would say extinguished, right?

[Speaker 1]
Don't forget, okay? Don't forget. In its entirety.

Oh, entirely given up. Separ. Is an idiom that means entirely.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you have totally eliminated classic misunderstanding when you reach tolam.

Because the Madhyamaka Avatara says, you give up jikta when you enter the stream. So is nahir aser? Nyamna?

Yeah, you might think to yourself. It is. Yeah, you might think to yourself.

Now, Chandrakirti said you give up this misunderstanding me and mine when you enter the stream. So it must be that you give up misunderstanding when you reach tolam. You would think.

Although we know that See, I would glue it to the last one.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I see.

[Speaker 1]
Although we know that it's not possible at any other point in arhat to give up all your marikpa. So you may be confused. You may have some problem here.

And it relates to our original question. You see? By reaching the path of seeing, do you reach arhat?

By seeing the nature of samsara, do you reach arhat? Because you do reach nirvana. Okay?

So we're just continuing on the same thread.

[Speaker 2]
Same thread, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Then I struggled. This is... I tried to do a little experiment where I put all the Gyaltsarjay's works together in one folder.

Because I wanted to see if he had quoted this line from Madhyamakavatara. Because then it would be more... Then I know I had the right line.

So I put all his works in one folder, and I searched it for this line, or this reference. And then I found out that half of Gyaltsarjay's texts are missing in our database. Arrgh!

They're all in there now. Sorry. So I didn't have them all.

So I couldn't use them. I got them in there that night. Yeah, I know.

He was embarrassed and... Why would you? Yeah, it's not his fault.

We're trying. We're cataloging like mad. There's a lot of books.

We've got hundreds in from your catalogs. Nick only just hit the scene. Oh, but...

Anyway, make sure I have it, okay? Or I have access to it. You have access to the Gyaltsarjay.

Everything... I mean the new Sumbo. I know.

I need to sit with you for five hours. Oh, right. Okay, five hours.

Yeah, okay. Anyway, I didn't... So I couldn't do that.

But then what happened was... I went... I found it.

And I searched the umla jukpa for jikta. Okay? And it only occurs like once.

It doesn't occur at all actually. Jikta doesn't occur in the Madhyamika Avatara. Yeah.

So I went for jikta latawa.

[Speaker 2]
And I found it.

[Speaker 1]
Where is this? Oh, there it is. And here it is.

And I think he's... he's certainly referring to this... this famous line from Madhyamika Avatara, which Nick is about to read.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh. The typewriter font?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, sorry. In the book. Okay.

This is... The first part is famous. It's quoted by everybody.

Usually they cut it there.

[Speaker 2]
The faults of mental afflictions?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, all these problems of our life with our anger, our jealousy, etc., etc., etc. All of them come from jung le jik sok la tak. So you have to read across the lines.

Yeah, jik sok. Yeah, that wrong word, which is jik sok. They come from thinking that me and mine are self-existent, okay?

And... and he's describing the path of seeing, par chen me lam, lo yi tong gyur shing. Then you see this fact with your mind, okay?

Then dag ni di yu du dok che ne. You realize the object. Having understood that the dog is the object of jik sok tawa, okay, the yogi gulks his dog.

[Speaker 2]
Stops itself, huh?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, stops his sense of a self-nature, okay. Wow. Okay.

And... and that's the quotation that's being referred to here when the guy has a question in his mind, and he says, but didn't the Madhyamika Avatara say that when you reach stream-enter, you give up jikta? Okay, that's the quotation he's thinking of, okay.

And I was hoping to search all of Gyalsug Je's works to see if he used a quotation in that sense elsewhere, which he probably would have. And it's a popular quotation, you know, like illumination and people use it, okay. Just to make sure, you do have access to that folder that I created that has all his work in it now, right?

Just give me the link. Send me the link. Okay, send it to me again.

Okay. Yeah, so let's split it just to make things easier. Loban Dawa Dharpa.

Yeah, he wrote a book which Stanley was talking about recently, called Uma Pumbonga. The Five Skandhas in the Middle Way. Okay, in the Middle Way.

And I think my friend Art translated the whole thing, and it's a book about this thick. I mean, he did a real bang-up job. Stupid guy.

So, anyway, he did a huge book about it, and it came out, and they sold ten copies, and that's the nature of these books. You're going to find this out.

[Speaker 2]
So...

[Speaker 1]
I'm going to put diamonds on them. I think you should put some pistachios in it or something. Anyway, in that book, okay, Tanya Peltzer, the majority of the Tanyas, of the language he uses, the majority of the language he uses in that book is Lumba De Dan.

Lumba, higher... Oh, from the Abhidharma basket. From the seven books of Abhidharma.

[Speaker 2]
No, I take it back.

[Speaker 1]
Seven books of Abhidharma.

[Speaker 2]
Yay! Okay. I say it like that, I can't speak it right anymore.

[Speaker 1]
Tsimpa Tse means that he tries to... he tries to remain in keeping with the language of the seven books on Abhidharma. I don't think that would be useful to us at this time.

He tries to stay... he tries to keep his language Abhidharma-ish in this other book, okay, in this other book, Tanya Peltzer, and then the Tsepe. Therefore, jikta la tongpang gi kyap...

It would seem that he's saying that all forms of... the view of destruction are eliminated at the path of seeing. Kyap tu chok.

You could say he's saying that, but... Okay, it looks like he's saying that, but he's just trying to fit in with the seven books of Abhidharma. It's not that he really believes it.

Because the book on the five heaps is... is a treatment of the theory of the five heaps from the Middle Way point of view, but he has to reference the original scriptures on the five heaps, which is the first chapter of the Abhidharma. Okay, so he's just making an apology for Chandrakirti.

Look, you can see in his other book, than jukpa, that he was trying to kind of retain this Abhidharma-ish flavor. And so it might look like he's saying that all forms of jikta are eliminated when you see the emptiness directly for the first time. Why would that look more Abhidharma-ish?

I guess Abhidharma people say stuff like that in the whole seven books, om mani padme hum.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, let's keep going.

[Speaker 1]
Keep going. Okay. Okay.

But, but, it is stated that there are types of misunderstanding which have to do with negative emotions, which are gompang. Yeah, they are, they are part of the group of things that are eliminated by gompang, which means you still have them after you come out of tongnam. Okay, so who's right?

You see, here, sharla means, sharla means incidentally. Okay, by the way, okay. Because it's been stated that you still have forms of misunderstanding that you have to eliminate in the gompang period, okay, as gomlam, in gomlam, okay.

So sharla, nyentu pakpe, we can say that lower-track Aryas have perceived the lack of a self-nature to things, but, kshetriya mappam. Of course, right? Döpa deyan chepa chate.

Therefore, this bears more examination. This idea bears more examination. Okay.

What idea? It's Chandrakirti's idea that at the extreme enter, you eliminate jikta.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
This needs a little more checking. Chepa chate means this needs a little more checking. I went and got you, Pumbonga, just to take your number and stuff.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
It's called chapters. Döpa deyan chepa means chapters on the five heaps. Pancha skanda prakarana.

[Speaker 2]
Is this actually an example of the Il Tsubje saying he's fuzzy on something?

[Speaker 1]
I doubt it, because it says, te.

[Speaker 2]
Which is the next sentence.

[Speaker 1]
I was surprised.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, by the way, it is that he clears up his own question Go figure. in the next breath, as predictable. Go ahead.

chep chen tong pang ki du pe shi chen te dak chö ki le lup nun sung ki sar du tok tam ki pong nam un te kom par Not gom. Kom. It's a big difference here.

It's a very crucial difference here. It's not gom. It's kom.

Okay. kom par chek kuh Chima mirike, gompang sungyodre, Chir, pang, pangpa, panna, Yid, pakpe, ma, pangpa, nyamso. Uh, important note.

There's a gompang and a gompang. This is not sugyodre. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Which means it's the optative, if it were to have been, instead of it is. This one means... Well, we'll get there, okay?

Thek chen pong gang, chek chen tong pong, kyi dupe she dupe dak. Okay? Obstacles to omniscience, which are included into the list of things you eliminate on the path of seeing, on the highest track.

Neluk de dak. Eliminated merely by perceiving, for the first time, okay? Directly, the true nature.

Neluk, okay? Don't be embarrassed to say true nature in a book where that's a dirty word. Neluk means the true nature.

It means it's the real true nature of things, okay? So, uh, we can say that these obstacles to omniscience, certain obstacles to omniscience, which are included into the stuff you eliminate with the path of seeing, are eliminated merely by seeing, for the first time directly, the true nature of things. Or, so he's giving you a first choice, and now he's laying out two options.

Is it that, okay, so this now becomes a big question, and we just finished the number one option. Is it that you eliminate all this stuff the first time you see emptiness? Okay?

Or, okay, or, and unte is also or, okay, nam, or is it rada? Unte means, is it rada that you have to calm, lower voice, calm, you have to get used to this idea, and it's not sadhu anymore. Okay?

It isn't the first time you see emptiness. It's like, or is it the case that you eliminate these, these misunderstandings by komba, and you have to, you have to calm, calm, calm, calm, and then you eliminate them. You want to know which one it is?

Chima Mirek. The ladder. Oh.

Chima Mirek. The ladder is incorrect.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It's kind of weird. Oh, yeah. I thought it was the other way around.

Well, we're missing something here. Okay, let's just say, Chima Mirek De, the ladder option is wrong. You said he was going to make his own decision on his own question, and he just did.

Okay? The ladder is wrong, because, now, if it says sukhyapa, it would mean, because those are gompangs. But rather it says, they would have to be gompangs when they're not.

Okay? They would have to be, that tompang would have to be a gompang. Okay.

So, it cannot be the ladder choice. It has to be the first choice. But, but if you take the first option, okay, then you would have to say, that a listener Arya had not, nyam here means, the idea that a listener Arya would have abandoned them, would have eliminated them, is thrown into question.

Nyam. Degenerates. It's thrown into question.

Okay? The idea that an Arya, who's a listener, has not yet eliminated these, is thrown into question. Oh my God.

Why? Listener, they're saying Aryas rather than Arhats, but they're talking... Well, because, that's because the Chershe Jukthongsu quotation.

They said right after Parche Melam, that you reach Nirvana, which is what Nagarjuna seems to be saying. All right. Then it creates all these problems.

Yeah. Yeah. So, what's the problem here then, a listener Arya?

[Speaker 2]
What's the problem with a listener? Why would that idea come up?

[Speaker 1]
It means, it is a fact, that a, that a listener Arya has not eliminated those things. It is a fact, it's true. But he says, that fact would be thrown into question, if you choose the first option here.

Oh, the fact that a listener Arya has not... Yeah, would be thrown into question, if we accept the first option here. That makes a difference, but...

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
The fact... That they could not have abandoned them yet, is thrown into question. Yeah.

Yeah. And they have not. Yeah.

Okay. All right. If you're going to say, the first time you see emptiness, you get rid of your obstacles, demolitions, then what?

Yeah, right. Yeah. Then the idea that listener Arhats haven't...

Aryas. Listener Aryas haven't eliminated those. And I like, it's thrown into question for Nyan.

It means that idea degenerates, meaning that idea is thrown into question. So that's cool. So he just blew up both options that he gave.

Yeah, he did. He gave two options, and then he was like, these are both...

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, he actually did. He actually did.

[Speaker 1]
He actually did. And he kind of said, up here he warned us, right? He warned us.

He introduced these two choices by saying... This needs more examination. Yeah, this needs more examination, because option one has this problem, and option two has this problem.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good. Yeah, God bless. We got through that section.

[Speaker 2]
I mean, it's going to...

[Speaker 1]
To translate, it's going to be quite a... I almost said a bad word. It's going to be an exercise that starts with B-I and ends with T-C-H.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Cookie. Birch. Birch.

Okay, let's do something easy for a few minutes.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Before Gyaltsabje notices. Let's put a different text up here. That's what I feel like, quick, read it before he says something.

Nibba shenki... shenki luk... Is that right?

Okay. Nibba shenki luk la nyam de topa mithe pala dor tenpa thang kye she to Yeah, now, what do I like to do when we get to a Nibba? Go out and figure out what is the second O.

Yeah, so go back to Dungpo. Because whatever list he introduced, he always says Dungpo after that. It doesn't matter if it's five or twenty, okay?

Now, I like to start my search right in front of a Dungpo, because I'm going to go backwards. And I don't want to go to 5,000 pages down. There's a Dungpo right here.

And then I do back, back search. Go back. That's, that's the first option in the debate.

That's not the Dungpo I'm looking for. Yeah, here's the Dungpo. Okay.

No, we finished the geshe. That was Dungpo.

[Speaker 2]
Dungpo had two parts.

[Speaker 1]
Which was a, which was identifying our version of nirvana that he's been talking about, which is only natural nirvana. Okay? We're identifying which nirvana we're talking about.

Okay? Now we're going to say, if we take nirvana according to your nirvana, your version of nirvana, you could never attain it. You lower way guys could never attain it.

If we take nirvana to be what you say, no one could. It's unattainable. And that's where we are.

So let's go back to Nyipa.

[Speaker 2]
We're out of time.

[Speaker 1]
Come on.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
So, shanky lukla, okay? And I felt it was missing, and it was. I have your scan.

It's a good scan. Yeah, I know. It's a good, it's a good carving.

And they left out a whole word, which is really irritating. Okay? This would mean there's no nirvana on the other guy's mountain pass.

Shanky la. Okay? So, shanky lukla.

Yeah, if we take nirvana in the way you guys describe it, topamite, you could never be achieved. Okay? Got it?

And that's where we are. Yeah. That's where we're going to pick up.

Am I right?

[Speaker 2]
Yes, sir.

[Speaker 1]
Stopped here. Cool? So, it's kind of going to be a little easier for about two lines.

Yeah, it seems. Then he does things like presents options and disproves both of them. Something like that.

Yep. Okay, cool. Yes.

And where the Sanskrit's available in your text, I'll add it for the fun of comparison. Okay. But it's not here right now.

Yeah. Okay. So, Okay.

That's it. Smogody bogody. Yay.

Thank you. Bye.