Классика Алмазного огранщика: Верхний Срединный путь — Великие книги мудрости, занятие 38

[Speaker 1]
What does Nagarjuna say we should call Nirvana?

[Speaker 2]
Samsara?

[Speaker 1]
Say, say, what?

[Speaker 2]
If you really understand samsara, you would understand Nirvana.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, or that's what we call Nirvana. That's what we call Nirvana, yeah. When you figure out samsara.

[Speaker 2]
Good.

[Speaker 1]
Here, vocab question. What was likely the Tibetan word I translated to say figure out rather than understand? Wow.

I'll give you guys a hint. We talked about this today. Yeah, we did.

Along with every other school of Buddhism. It's not the way you're thinking. I know, because I studied it.

I almost put ken instead of figure out. I might confuse the noun. Now you're along, you're almost there.

If I put, if you said let's... Yes, yes. All right.

Yeah, yeah, very good. Yeah, and that's a good translation of Yomsushepa. Yeah.

Yomsushepa. So that's cool, I got a China. Nice.

Appropriate what we learned today. Not bad. How does Arya Nagarjuna refer to the process where things occur and then are destroyed?

You either remember this or not. It's in one of the verses. Nice.

So it's pretty much a question for word. Just kidding, anybody might remember. It's just a word, it's just one word.

Do you know it, Tim? Yeah. Oh, that's okay.

Stopping. He calls it stopping. A stopping.

And he specifically says that's what we call stopping. You know when things are created and then they're destroyed, we call it stopping. Okay.

What does Gyatsobje say would be the logical consequence if samsara and nirvana existed ultimately? What's the consequence if nirvana were nothing?

[Speaker 2]
If samsara and nirvana existed ultimately, it's the opposite of that. Everyone would be an arhat seeing it. Arya would see them.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you guys got it. Wait, say it again. No, I just want to hear the answer.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, go ahead and say it. Yeah, okay, and?

[Speaker 1]
And then the second part of the question is what's the consequence if nirvana were nothing?

[Speaker 2]
If all the people who reach nirvana will disappear? That's kind of close. I'd reach nirvana if I smoked a dude.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, people wouldn't reach, there's no nirvana to reach. People can't reach nirvana. Oh, okay.

That's all. That's what Gyatsobje says. Okay.

Aryas would see them and if nirvana were nothing, they couldn't achieve it, Aryas. He specifically says Aryas would achieve it. Okay, okay.

A couple more vocabularies. Oh, I see, okay. So you can kind of figure out what it means.

And I guess I'm really just saying what did it mean in this context because I guess it could mean a few different things. So we're talking about in the context of the question that I just asked, what does it mean?

[Speaker 2]
Wouldn't it be reasonable to say you could do that?

[Speaker 1]
You wouldn't be able to achieve it. You could never achieve it. Unreachable.

[Speaker 2]
What?

[Speaker 1]
Nirvana. Yeah. Yes.

And? Nesum.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, Nesum. No. No.

Nesum. This is a weird one.

[Speaker 1]
No, you got it right. You got it right. They don't got it right.

You got it right. Actually, you've gotten this one before, I recall. Because I was like, yeah.

Maybe it wasn't Nesum, but it was Nesum. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it means to.

You're so close. That's mu. This is mu.

But they're related. It's easier than what you're thinking. Yeah.

I'm going to put it out. Okay, here we go. Recognize.

[Speaker 2]
Identify.

[Speaker 1]
Identify. Nesum. It can mean, like, recognize or identify.

To grab the face.

[Speaker 2]
To identify.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. It's cha-ra-shab-kyu-ru. Just so you can learn how to pronounce it, it's cha-ra-shab-kyu-ru-cha-ru.

To the action. Cha-ru. Oh, yeah.

God, his eyes are amazing. Yeah, he's a pretty girl. 11 months.

He's going to be really big. But he's already a ki-gen-gyo. He already has.

He's a ki-shun-gyo. Ki-shun-gyo? Young dog with a beard.

Ki-shun-gyo. Young dog with a beard. Do you take the blame, boss?

We've got to bring that up in the debate ground, see if anybody figures it out. I got a ki-shun-gyo. Ki-shun-gyo.

A young dog with a beard. Cha-ru. Those eyes are intense, though.

Yeah, yeah. He's a good boy. He's like, did you remember my doggy treat?

Yeah, basically. Our adopted, our borrowed, our temporary dog has a tongue like that because we took out all his front teeth. So there's nothing to stop it from going...

Oh, it just hangs? Yeah. It always looks like he's...

[Speaker 2]
That's right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. I take the blame. I take the blame.

Aaron, crush it.

[Speaker 2]
He was relating to the word my. Also true.

[Speaker 1]
So we're working on the same thing. Can you just read it for good luck? Stanley want to take the blame?

Crush it? Do you want me to read the other version? No, you're trying to find him to say something wrong.

There's only one word difference, so... Find something wrong with his pronunciation. Nge-po chung-wa shik-pa-la.

Chung-wa. We just had that. Nge-po.

And Geshe-la was just proved wrong on that. Shik-pa-la. That the past, that the present, chung-wa, happened already.

Chi-tar-ngok-pa-pa-pa-shin, te-shin-tong-pa-nam-hi-kyang, gyu-ma-chi-tai-ngok-pa-she. There you go. Okay.

This ngok-pa is just baba, okay? When a thing starts and stops, okay? Then, we can just label it a stopping.

It came up, it went down. That's the kind of thing we can label a stopping, okay? In the same way, the dhammas, the holy ones, okay?

They also she... assert. They also assert a kind of cessation, which is...

yeah, which is like an illusion. Oh, I'm sorry. I got a gyu-ma-che for you.

Gyu-ma-che. I'm going to read it as gyu-ma-ken-gi-che-pe. Gyu-ma-ken-gi-che-pa.

Gyu-ma-ken-gi-che-pa. Yeah, the condition of illusion. What's a gyu-ma-ken?

Some words of illusion? M-K-H-A-N. Are they added to any word?

Someone who sees... Oh, someone, the illusionist. Yeah, a magician, okay?

So, you know, because of the che past tense, which otherwise wouldn't make any sense at all, I'm going to take it as a gyu-ma-ken-gi-che-pa, which has been conjured up by a magician. Conjured by a magician. I don't think it's, he did an illusion.

You see what I mean? And here we go with the commentary. ngepo mi takpa mi rang gi ngo-wa dukpa me kyi ngepo ngar chung shing kye pa shikpa la jitar ngepa de mi takpar nampar takpa Yeah, now, when you go to translate it, you know, take the jitar out and put it at the end, and your life will be easier.

In your head, in your head. Take the jitar out and put it at the end of the sentence, and it will be easier for you, okay? Because it's in the right position, but it's a very colloquial position, and you'll never get it, okay?

So... So it's like imputing... Yeah, when we say a thing is changing, okay?

When we say a thing is changing, what we're referring to... We say, when a thing is changing, it's not something that happens from its own side. rang gi ngo-wa dukpa mayin me It's not something that happens because the thing has some nature of its own, okay?

Rather, it is that, up to now, it has already chunged, okay? It has already come about. Which is to say, it has kye pa, and it has shi pa.

And we label those two parts, gok pa. The stopping and the... Yeah, yeah.

So it just exists in name only. We take the top of the pen and the bottom of the pen, and a karmic seed opens, and an image comes out and makes it a pen, okay? There's a starting of a thing, there's a stopping of a thing, the karmic seed opens, a picture comes out, and we call it impermanent.

Changing, okay? But it doesn't exist this way. It exists because the parts have been unified by a picture coming out of a karmic seed.

Okay, got it? Why are we talking about gopas here? Well, Nargajuna, Arya Nargajuna mentioned it.

Why he mentioned it, I'm just trying to... No, don't look. What's the last thing Nargajuna said?

He said that... Nirvana is... is samsara.

[Speaker 2]
Understanding.

[Speaker 1]
Understanding, yeah. Yeah. To understand what samsara is, is nirvana.

So he's on the subject of stoppings, because that's what Arhats achieve. Stoppings. Yes.

So now he's going to talk about stoppings, which is to say nirvana, okay? So now he's saying, look, even nirvana is apparent. Even nirvana is coming out of your seeds.

If there's parts of nirvana, start, end, then your mind, you know, makes a nirvana out of it. But never think that nirvana is coming this way. And is it getting so intense about stopping because it's so important to the lower schools when they talk about nirvana?

Maybe, maybe. But anyway, the point is that nirvana is the stopping of your mental afflictions, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Is he saying because you're labeling things that have gone out of existence already?

[Speaker 1]
No, he's just saying you take those two parts in time, the coming and the going, and you unify them with a picture from your mind called mitakpa. And in the same way, a gopa is created by having mental afflictions and losing mental afflictions. We call it nirvana.

Wow. He's saying that the advantages that Aryas have over other people is they don't think that nirvana comes from its own side, but they also don't think that samsara came from its own side. They are seeing a samsara which didn't come from its own side turn into a nirvana which didn't come from its own side.

That's all. They're both constructs. They're both constructs, and an Arya sees it that way.

Okay? And if you don't see it that way, you can't ...

[Speaker 2]
Reach it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good! Yay, mitopo! You had it on your homework.

Okay, good. There we go. Okay, now, why did I ask you to put the jita at the end?

Because it's how ... Oh, I'm sorry. I'm looking at the wrong one.

Hmm. You make a good instant packaged tea. Her real Indian tea is even better.

[Speaker 2]
You must need sugar.

[Speaker 1]
When you have jita, you're comparing one thing to another. We just had the thing that we're comparing to, and we're not got to the thing yet that we're comparing to it. So, just as wise people, just as we call, just as we use the word mitopo, it's a picture glued on to a beginning and an ending.

In the same way, what's he going to say? Don't look. In the same way as that, we got another gopa to discuss.

This thing we call nirvana. That's all. He's going to go on to another gopa.

The word mitopo is a concept put on a starting and a stopping. And the word nirvana, which is a stopping, is a concept put on, and he's going to say something. So the jita should be then, because what's being compared to is what comes in the next bunch.

Yeah, it should go between. And it's okay to say it this way, but it's very colloquial, and it's confusing. Okay.

In the same way, it's almost like de shindu. It's the same as de shindu. De shindu...

Yeah, there's a shindu. Oh yeah, shindu... Yeah, see, this jita goes with the shindu.

Yeah. In the same way...

[Speaker 2]
Right. I'm sorry, Mother.

[Speaker 1]
Read it first, then have Jigme correct your pronunciation, Om Mani Padme Hum. Be hard on him. Yeah.

If you were compassionate, you would have mispronounced some things on purpose. Okay. Okay.

Töpa. Töpa means to listen. Töpa means to depend on.

I'm waiting for the day when Sigeng can tell me what tö means. Sigeng. In the...

Yeah. What? For $25.

No, now, you know, you know the day is going to come when you have to start paying me if you can't get it. I'm just setting you up. We need more sponsors.

Tenjungi Teni Shok. Tenjungi Teni Shok. Give me the definition of tenjung.

Tendrel. Tendrel, give me. Come on in, Tibetan.

Give me the definition of dependent origination, the short one. In English.

[Speaker 2]
Tö drup.

[Speaker 1]
We've only done it 12 times, but now it's 13. Tö drup.

[Speaker 2]
Tö drup. Here's the tö.

[Speaker 1]
Different spelling, but, you know. Okay, tö drup. Okay.

So, not only when a coffee cup breaks, do we call it impermanence because it started and it stopped. And it's a label we put on the starting and the stopping together. In the same way, nirvana...

Doesn't have an essence that can be used. Yeah, it doesn't exist from its own side, but rather, is a unification of two parts by the mind. Korwa.

Uh-huh. Rangchen Mepa. Same thing with samsara.

Yeah, samsara is korwa rangchen mepa. Uh-huh. Oh, nirvana is...

Oh, no. Yeah, nirvana is korwa rangchen mepa. The lack of self to samsara.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Nirvana is the fact that samsara doesn't come from itself. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Wow. That's...

[Speaker 1]
Profound. Nagarjuna. Nirvana is the fact that samsara doesn't come from itself.

Yeah, cool.

[Speaker 2]
Beautiful.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yinpei, uh... So, for that to make its appearance to your mind, for that...

to get an image of that in your mind, requires getting an image of samsara in your mind. Uh-huh. What's it?

The first it. For you to get an image of that in your mind, you've got to have an image of samsara in your mind. It's the samsara that doesn't come from its own side.

Or you could say... Well, I'd say nirvana. Yeah.

You think? Yeah, I would say. Getting an image of what nirvana is in your mind requires getting an image of what samsara is in your mind.

Uh-huh. Okay? Uh...

Depends on drupa, right? Uh-huh. Uh...

Go ahead. te, te, shindu, pakpa, tampa, nam kyi, khyang, gyu, ma, kye, pa, ta, bu, yi, phun, po, khyen, yin, go, pa, she, to, u. Yeah.

In... In the same way as this example of... What?

Uh... Now, samsara nirvana? What's nirvana being compared to?

It's a lack of self to samsara? Impermanence. Mitapa.

Mitapa is a word put onto two events. To the beginning and the ending of an object.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
In the same way, uh... The holy ones, the Aryas, this must be root text. It's not pakpa.

Tampa. See? Because pakpa is artificial here.

It feels artificial.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
It's just in a positive. The holy ones, the realized forms. Yeah, and I didn't black out the root text, because I thought it would be more fun if you had to struggle with it.

All right. Okay. Uh...

In the same way, the holy ones referring to the... Realized ones. Aryas.

Uh... She... Assertive.

Yeah. They say... What they say, the position they take, is that there is a kokpa, where the pungbos never happened.

Never started. Okay. They accept a cessation, which is the fact that the heaps never started.

And don't forget in the lower schools, which are the defenders of his sixty-verse book, right? The pungbos are the ultimate example of... Contamination.

Sansara. They are sansara. Okay?

So just read sansara for pungbo here. It's what he's trying to say. Those saktsikhi pungbos from the Abhidharma guys, which is sansara.

Okay?

[Speaker 2]
They're...

[Speaker 1]
The fact that they don't start, is Nirvana. The fact that they never started, meaning the fact that sansara never started, if you understand how sansara never started, yong su shepa na, that's kokpa. That's...

That's a higher kokpa, because he was talking about a smaller kokpa in his comparison. What was the smaller kokpa? Good.

Of a coffee cup. Okay, got it? The impermanence of a coffee cup is an idea that we put on two events.

And, the similar cessation of sansara is an idea that we put on the fact that sansara never started. Okay, got it? And in fact, the fact that sansara never started, those...

That sansara which is your parts of you, the parts of you, sansara, which in the lower schools especially, is equivalent to the parts of you, the five parts of you. Okay? That one is like a gyuma chepa, like an illusion created by a magician.

You see, all he says is, is, created illusion. But what it means is, by a magician, you know, an illusion created by a magician. So I would gloss it as gyuma khen kyi chepa, created by a magician.

Okay. Illusion created by... Yeah, all it says is, illusion made.

Yeah. So, but it seems hard to explain.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Your body and mind are nothing more than a rabbit in a hat, pulled out of a hat. Okay? And may it be as easy for Katie as it is for pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Okay? So, they recognize, okay? They, what they say is, yeah, there is a cessation of samsara, but it is equal to the fact that samsara never started.

And it's a nice pun, because, what is the end of samsara? The fact that it never started, please. Okay?

Got it? It's a, it's sweet. And this is Nagarjuna.

He's just got, he's got stuff hidden everywhere. You know, if you chew on it, you're like, oh my god, he's saying the ending of samsara is the fact that it never started. In this tiny little phrase.

He's so, he's so off the wall, you know.

[Speaker 2]
Where's the but?

[Speaker 1]
What was the but?

[Speaker 2]
He said, there is a cessation of samsara, but it is equal to the fact.

[Speaker 1]
And, I mean, it is. Uh, I just, uh, no, it's because. For you to see, for you to see what nirvana is, you have to see what samsara is.

Okay? Depends on that. Okay, keep going.

By the way, I put a yay there. That's where, there's where Stanley's extraordinarily smart comment, which is very rare.

[Speaker 2]
Natural.

[Speaker 1]
Uh, okay, it's confirmed right here. Okay, go ahead. I also said yay to myself, because I thought that's what it was, but I wasn't sure until then.

Lopur jigrel ki ngo pa yin no. Okay, good. Uh, let's identify the nirvana which is equal to the complete understanding of samsara.

The one we've been on. The one we've been on. Okay?

Let's identify which one he's talking about. When he says, yeah, when he says to understand samsara completely, his nirvana, which nirvana is he talking about? Because there's different kinds of nirvana.

Then we say, oh, he's talking about lam shing gi nyang yin me depa. Natural nirvana, which is the emptiness of all things. It's not the state of stopping your mental afflictions.

Okay, got it? Uh, uh, lam kyi tope nyang yin me depa. Uh, just translate that much.

The nirvana which you achieve by the practice of the path, through the practice of the path, that nirvana is a cessation. And you know this, but I think you've got to sit with it for a second. Something about the books?

Uh, qi zhao yin no. Zhao wa, not connected.

[Speaker 2]
Zhao wa.

[Speaker 1]
Not connected? No, it's not n-zhao wa.

[Speaker 2]
It's zhao wa. Not natural nirvana?

[Speaker 1]
No. It's connected? Oh, oh, oh, oh, I see.

We had it as D-B-R-A-L in somebody's text recently. I think it was a word's text. D-B-R-A-L.

D-B-R-A-L. Split, separated.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, separated, not connected. Oh, I thought I said that before.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so qi zhao means freedom of, from malas. Freedom from malas. Lo bor wa?

[Speaker 2]
Lo bor wa.

[Speaker 1]
No, lo bor means advantageous.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, advantageous.

[Speaker 1]
They are not part of your mind. They can be re... The tumor can be cut out without cutting out the brain.

That's called lo bor. And, and the good news is your misconceptions are lo bor. They are removable without destroying the mind.

The rig yin can be qi, without the zig yin qi. Okay. Right, right, right.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, got it?

[Speaker 1]
So this is a big deal in Buddhism. Oh, you're so lucky that your qi mas are lo bor. They are, they come and go.

Lo bor literally means come and go. They are, they are entities which come and go. They are not a permanent fixture of the mind.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Now, this sentence is really difficult, okay? This says, this last part says, the nirvana which you achieve through the use of the practices of the path is a cessation where you get rid of your impurities which were in your mind not permanently, not as a... Yeah, come and go impurities.

Okay? Why did he say that? Why is this sentence...

Because he's talking about how samsara doesn't come from its own side, and... I'll give you a clue. The key is this la, which is more disjunctive than you look like.

Usually la is a soft conjunctive. The nirvana that we're talking about is natural nirvana, however... Yeah, good.

Say as opposed to. As opposed to the nirvana that you reach by practicing the path, which is the elimination of all the stuff that comes and goes. Yeah.

And, and natural nirvana is the opposite of low buddha. Because it's always there. It's always been there, always will be there, always was there.

Wow, that's tough. Okay? And his language here is terrible.

He should have had a knee there, if it were me. In fact, I bet you can find a carving that has a knee there. Just crazy.

Then it would be more clearly saying, but, this nirvana that you get through practicing the path, well that one, well that's just a cessation of stuff that could have been gotten rid of, but this one, is natural nirvana that all things have in them from the factory. Yeah. Which is the opposite of low buddha.

Okay, got it? In factory settings. So finally, you breathe a sigh of relief, and you say, when he said nirvana was to no samsara, what he was referring to was the emptiness of samsara, which is natural nirvana.

Wow, cool. Okay, when you see nirvana, when you see samsara for what it is, you see emptiness, and that's natural nirvana. But, la, whereas, the one you get through practice of the path, of that one, oh, that's just, you practice, practice, practice, and you clean out all the crap.

That's not what nirvana is referring to here. Okay? Which is helpful.

Yeah, and so glad he said it, because otherwise, it's really confusing. I know samsara since I was born, and I didn't get to know nirvana. I've been having to grab my own life.

I didn't get to know nirvana. Okay, here we go. tong lam tok ne nyam de tok par dzok par yang drab pa ndi luk sum ni sel te do le dak gi kye wa ni sel to ja wa ni je sol she pa ni hyang drat chom ki ka konar nang we chir Again, it's a very difficult sentence.

And he's like that, and I wish he would just let up for once, but he doesn't.

[Speaker 2]
Okay? Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Now, I'll preface this, okay? If natural nirvana, where the nirvana you got by practicing the path, and removing impurities from your mind, which are not natural to your mind, which can be removed without destroying the brain, okay? Tumor which can be removed without destroying the brain, okay?

If nirvana in general is emptiness, then when you achieve tong lam, you should achieve nyam de dzok par in its complete form. In its complete form, okay? If it's true that knowing the nature of samsara is nirvana, then the first time you see emptiness, you should reach arhat in its complete form, okay?

Yang, drelpa di lusu misel te. I take the misel as not that it's not clear. I take it to be this is not the position of our commentary here.

This is not what Nagarjuna is saying. Okay? Nagarjuna is not saying that when you see the nature of samsara, you reach nirvana in the same way when you...

He's not saying that just by achieving the path of seeing, you would achieve arhat. He's not saying that. He's not saying that.

Okay? So what... Why not?

Let's see what sutra says. No, and then he quotes a dō. Dō le.

Because sutras describe arhatship, nirvanaship, as daki kyewa se dō. Daki kyewa se dō. You get rid of the self that came up.

I've got no more birth. Okay? My birth are over.

My birth are over. Chawa chepa. I did it.

Yeah, that's a famous synonym for an arhat. He did what he had to do. He's gone done and did what he got to do.

He did... He done what he got to do. He's finished.

Okay? It's very famous in the One Day Vow. Kurporwa.

Chawa chepa. He dumped the load. He did what he had to do.

So, because sutras talk in those terms about arhat, about nirvana, Oh, I stopped all my birth. Oh, I finally finished what I had to do. Then Nagarjuna can't be saying that nirvana is just to see emptiness the first time.

He can't be saying that. Okay? Got it?

When you see this kind of wording, My births are finished. I done what I have to do. It only occurs in references to Drak Chombas.

It doesn't appear in references to Aryas who just saw emptiness. So that's what he's saying? Yeah, that's our wrong loop.

That's our wrong loop. Yeah. This book can't be saying that seeing the nature of samsara is itself nirvana, because every time it talks about nirvana, it talks about it in terms of My births are finished.

I did what I had to do. Which of course is Milo blam. Fifth path.

Everybody knows. So Nagarjuna can't be saying that the third path is the fifth path. Okay?

Because every time you see nirvana, arhats described in scripture, it's in this context. I finished all my births. I did what I had to do.

They don't say, I saw reality. See what I mean? Sure.

That's all. Yeah. I'm sorry, what?

I think he's saying when words like this come up. Oh, we only see it. Yeah.

We only see it in scripture this way. Oh my God. Okay.

We only... Yeah, good luck. When there's more notes than text, you know you're going to have a bad day.

Did I say that?

[Speaker 2]
I'm sorry?

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry, what? Oh, I added that. I'll tell you why.

Let's go ahead. Okay? I'm going to go ahead.

Watch. Follow the scrolling screen.

[Speaker 2]
We're still in sutra.

[Speaker 1]
Ah! No. There's the next verse.

That's the next verse. Okay. And if you don't know the thing by heart, you don't know that he's referring to the verse that's going to come later.

Really? Yeah, it's coming. Okay.

It's funny that way sometimes. Yeah, he's quoting the next verse, and if I put the quotation marks in there, so I wouldn't forget.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Because it took me a long time to figure out what the hell. Makes sense. He's referring to the verse that hasn't come yet, which he's not on.

And he's going to use it to prove this one. Thanks. Okay.

Okay, here we go. Okay. Okay.

Okay. So he's actually quoting Chandrakirti's explanation of the next verse. Oh, cool.

Okay. Okay. Now, to understand that line, you have to understand the difference between chosu and chushe.

Okay, this is a tonglam detail term. Tonglam detail? Chosu.

Okay, and it equals parchimelam and namdurlam. Chosu and chushe equal parchimelam and namdurlam. Anybody?

The unobstructable path. Unobstructed path and The path with no obstacles. And the path of freedom, liberation.

These are two expressions when we study the details of the path of seeing. It can be divided into two parts. One is parchimelam, which refers to the period of the direct perception emptiness.

Namdurlam refers to the period after that, when you are already freed from the three mental afflictions that are the only ones that the path of seeing eliminates forever, which are? The intellectual belief in emptiness.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Doubt about the path. The belief in aesthetic practices. And the belief in stupid aesthetic practices.

Okay, so those three. Now, the way they present it in the scriptures is, during the direct perception of tonglam, of emptiness, they're punching it out. Punching it out.

Those three mental afflictions and tonglam are punching it out. Okay? And then the last second before you come out, you know, the tonglam knocks out those three mental afflictions.

And then, the moment you come out, you are free. So they call tonglam, it's divided into two lams itself. Tonglam is divided into parchimelam, and namdrulam.

Parchimelam, there's no pause in the fight. Oh.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
They're in direct conflict. And those three afflictions are going, do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do, you know. You know.

And then, the last moment, damn, namdrulam. And you're still in meditation, but you come down. And the direct perception is over.

Okay? So, sometimes, the first one is called chusar. And the second one is called chushe.

You are mastering, and you know.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
You are mastering the thing, and then you're enjoying the thing you finished. Sometimes they're divided that way. And roughly refers to parchimelam and namdrulam.

And there's a third famous division, do you remember? Of the path of seeing? Yes.

Bhakti-nyamshak and jato-gyeshe. Nice, perfect. You should have waited till I offered some money.

That's okay, Geshe. Explain, explain, explain. There's the period where you're meditating on emptiness.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
The combination of shakti and vipasyana. Yeah, so you're in the direct perception of emptiness. And then there's the wisdom that comes subsequent to that, comes after that, where you realize the sixteen aspects of the four higher truths.

Yeah. So it takes about another hour or something. Something like that.

Okay? It's the hour after that. You're still on your meditation cushion.

Okay? But you're not in the direct perception of emptiness. Okay?

Cool?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So, there's three ways to divide tonglam. So... One way is what I just said.

Bhakti-nyamshak and... Nyamshak and jato. They just call nyamshak and jato.

Nyamshak and jato. In direct perception, and out of direct perception, but still in meditation. One other way is cheson and cheshe.

Yeah. You're mastering the thing, and then you're enjoying the thing after you've mastered it. And then another way to put it is the...

no obstacle. Yeah. Parche, melam.

Uninterrupted... Uninterrupted path. Flow on emptiness directly, and then...

Freedom. Liberation. Namdrolam.

Namdrolam. Okay? Now...

You've got a line coming up that says, if just after you understood the thing. If just after you understood the thing. Okay?

Which is kind of the wrap-up of tonglam. Okay? If just after you wrapped up your tonglam, and you went on to gomlam, you're ready to go on to gomlam, right?

In the next... You know, in the next few minutes. Maybe an hour later.

Okay? You enter gomlam on the same day. Tonglam takes like 20 minutes for direct perception, maybe an hour afterwards, and that's tonglam.

Then you're in gomlam already. You're already a fourth pather. Okay?

So... What do you think is gonna come, if somebody says, well look, if it happens just after the second half of tonglam, what's it?

[Speaker 2]
Nirvana.

[Speaker 1]
Good. Perfect. Okay?

Got it? If... If...

If... When you say nirvana is knowing samsara, right? Which really happens at tonglam, then you should be in arhat the next moment after chushe.

Okay? So that's what he's gonna say. If it happens just after chushe, he's gotta be talking about the nirvana that didn't happen after chushe, which is the natural nirvana.

Okay, got it? Okay? Got it?

[Speaker 2]
Yep.

[Speaker 1]
If that were the dzogtang... Dzogtang. For a hundred dollars.

The entry point to the... Yeah, the finish line, basically. Of what?

Of your mental... of samsara. Of samsara, yeah.

Of everything.

[Speaker 2]
For you, the goal, the prize.

[Speaker 1]
That dzog... No, that's not what dzog means.

[Speaker 2]
Complete...

[Speaker 1]
Completion line?

[Speaker 2]
If that's all it was.

[Speaker 1]
If that's all it was. Uh-oh. Uh-oh.

That's the point where you cross... Never mind, I'm canceling the hundred dollars. If that's the point at which you are dzogpe dracomba...

Uh, complete... Yeah, it's not finished. Dzog here doesn't mean finished.

Dzog means complete. If that's complete nirvana, if that's where you got your nirvana 100%, when? Uh, right after the second part of the path.

Good, right. If the moment you entered the path of habituation was total nirvana, total, call it total, okay? Then we got problems, okay?

All right, tenzin derwa chungwa... Okay, so tenzin derwa chungwa. Uh, yes, so dependence.

When... The meaning of dependence? Yeah, good.

Sannyācīpa I take to be Sabda, because the big selling point for Madhyamika, and the reason we praise Tsongkhapa for teaching dependent origination, is that he did it through Sabda. He always explained it with Sabmo. Yeah, he never talked about dependence without talking about emptiness.

Okay, that's why we should always praise Lord Buddha. Okay, that's why Tsongkhapa has a crush on Lord Buddha. Yeah, yeah, no, in the praise, he says, you're so cool.

Not because you taught dependent origination, because you taught it profoundly. Emptiness-ly. Okay, okay, so, if you interpret the meaning of dependent origination as that one perfect thing, meaning emptiness, okay, jitāvaśiṁ, okay, now, now that, that thing, okay, if you meditate on dependent origination flavored by an understanding of emptiness, okay, rimkī komna, chepay, if you do that, then you will eventually be able to gākpa, all your marikama.

And that's a gradual practice through the practice of the path. And please, it's not something that pops in the first moment you see emptiness in tonglam. So therefore, the Garjuna cannot be referring to the nirvana which happens directly after, which takes time, yeah, by understanding the deeper meaning of dependent origination.

[Speaker 2]
Got it?

[Speaker 1]
Okay, okay, so yeah, so, he's, Gyaltsabje is saying, the Garjuna cannot be referring to, that, he cannot be saying that you get to nirvana two, ten minutes after you see emptiness directly. He's saying, you have to see dependent origination, you have to study sub-gangs tags, then you got to study udpala tags, and you understand the deeper meaning of dependent origination, and you, rimkī, step by step, gradually, gradually, gradually, gradually, kom, you get used to that, and then you get to cessation, yeah, then you stop all your ignorance, and you gain the wisdom which sees the real nature of dependent origination, okay? Okay, got it? That's what we call real, nyāṅgde, that's what we call cārcepa, nyi, nyi means, that's what we call cārcepa, and nothing else.

What's cārcepa? I did it, I did it, I did it, okay, which is what Buddha said is the definition of nirvana, okay? So, it's not that you see emptiness directly, and ten minutes later, you're like, cārcepa!

You know, it's that you see it, and then you work, work, work, to apply it to the second husband in the kitchen, countless times, and then you reach nirvana. No, really, really. It's not gonna happen the first time you try to use the second husband in the kitchen, it's not gonna happen.

That's what Gyaltsabje is saying, it's not gonna happen the first time you remember the second husband in the kitchen, it's gonna happen a thousand times later. Damn. Yeah, easy, nābhāṣyāṇḍu mayino, but it ain't any other way, okay?

That's what's nirvana, nyāṅgme devayin, that's what's cārcepa, that's the only thing that's cārcepa, that we say is cārcepa, number shot. That's the only thing that we say is real nirvana, it ain't something that happens the moment you see emptiness, and that's not what Nagarjuna is saying. End quotation, by whom?

Chandrakirti. In his commentary to...60 verses. 60 verses.

Yay!

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Don't think that's nirvana, and don't think that's the nirvana being mentioned here. Does he assert that something is nirvana? No.

Yeah, the only one that's real nirvana is the one that the Buddha described as, I did it. Which he's saying is the one that's not rākṣiṇī. Yeah, which is laṃkī, rīṃkī, rīṃkī, rīṃkī, by seeing...

Yeah, interesting. It's not by seeing the emptiness of saṃsāra, you suddenly reach nirvana. Rāla, he studies the Ganga text over a long period of time, then you sprinkle it with Utpala's text, and then you get...

work on that with the husband in the kitchen countless times, rīṃkī, rīṃkī, rīṃkī, then you get to nirvana. Okay, got it? But it's not, to go back to the beginning of this paragraph where you have more notes than text, it's not something kṣuṣe tokṣu, juktokṣu.

That's achieved directly. Yeah, it doesn't happen ten minutes after... It doesn't happen during the kṣuṣe stage.

It doesn't happen during namda-laṃkṣu.

[Speaker 2]
I find it kind of encouraging to see that he's worked up correcting the same wrong ideas about Buddhism that we still have. We're not just newly, freshly dumb. A lot of these problems have always been problems, a lot of these confusions have always been confusions.

Do you find that comforting, or do you find it sad? I don't know, I was afraid we're getting dumber if we're only as dumb.

[Speaker 1]
I think Gyaltsabje and Chandrakirti are scared to death that there's going to come some movement of people who say, the moment you see emptiness directly, you're in arhat. That's nirvana. You know, they're scared to death that someone's going to say that, and probably countless people did say that.

Yeah, and he's really afraid of that. So he's nailing it, nailing it, nailing it. That's not nirvana, that's natural nirvana.

As predicted by Professor Chen. That was the smartest thing you ever said. Which proves, if a monkey types on a typewriter...

[Speaker 2]
You're so young to have done that already.

[Speaker 1]
Sangye shindu, bhikte uwar, Giro namda, Simha chupasho, Hiram kuranda, mandala kandeya dayami, Sangye shindu, bhikte uwar, Giro namda, mandala kandeya dayami, Sangye shindu, bhikte uwar, Giro namda, mandala kandeya dayami, Sangye shindu, bhikte uwar, That was a hard one.