Сугэн Ши — Книга 2: Колесо жизни (первый принцип и подразделения зависимости), занятие 5

[Speaker 1]
Actually, it's going to be even cooler than that. You're going to become the host. Okay, do I need to record?

I should. I've put it on to YouTube so you should. Are you already doing it?

Okay. Okay, so there is no need for me to record locally, right? Okay, that's great.

Okay, yeah, maybe we have a short break of five minutes, Isabel, for you to rest for a while. And then I will move everybody to the panelist shortly. So you're becoming a host.

You're the full.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, thank you. Thank you very much.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. So do I need to stop the streaming or I just... I mean, you can if you want, but you can then just leave the meeting and it'll turn off and just get a notification.

I just end the meeting, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Okay, let's have a five minutes break to quarter past 10 Beijing time, Singapore time, seven, quarter past seven, Arizona time, and then we'll reconvene for discussion.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you. Have a nice.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. Thank you, team. Thank you.

Bye-bye. Is that Gina? Wow, you look so different.

Gina Rivera? Wow, you look so different.

[Speaker 3]
Sorry, again, I cannot hear you because I have a Spanish channel.

[Speaker 1]
You can hear me? You should, no? Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Hi, how are you now?

[Speaker 1]
I am good. You look so different.

[Speaker 3]
Yes, I changed my hair.

[Speaker 1]
I see. Wow.

[Speaker 3]
I have a friend and I have to plant the seed with him because he don't have much work. He put a place for cutting the hair.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, I plant the seed.

[Speaker 1]
So nice of you. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for staying back.

Okay. It's 7.15 Arizona time. So let's start our session.

Is there any question from the group? Anything all of you want to discuss? Even better if you want to turn on your video, otherwise it is kind of lonely here.

Fernando is switching off the video. Yeah, let's turn on the video. We just have a relaxing discussion on the topics that we covered.

Hopefully, I know how to answer. Yeah, thank you, Mary. Adam's mom?

Yeah, how are you? Wow, Isabel, thank you. Isabel is translating for me.

Yeah, I think there are still a lot of Chinese people. Okay, anything all of you want to discuss? If not, then we call it a day.

Oh, how do you all like the session so far? Ah, Juan is interpreting. How do you all like the session so far?

These two days? Ah, yeah. Thank you, Mary.

So the rest of the people? I'm looking at the list and it looks like all of you can hear me. Okay, loud enough.

Okay, okay, good. Loud enough. I see a lot of names here, but people are just...

Ah, Christy, thank you for turning on your video. I saw one question in the Q&A box by Rixin Dorje, but I don't think that's a question. That's more like a comment.

What Jonah burned in the belly of the whale? Was it a palm leaf? I don't know, maybe.

So, wow, all of you are still so shy. Yvonne, yeah, thank you. Ah, thank you, Yvonne.

Enjoying diving in the ocean? Catherine, okay. Okay, when I look at the schedule and Nick put me as number one, or rather Nick put me as the first person to answer the Q&A, I was kind of happy, you know.

Yeah, I'm the first one. Because normally the first one, people are still shy. They don't ask questions, you know, as compared to the last one.

After the first one, everybody will start to ask questions. Juan, you are the translator. Why are you asking me?

Juan is a translator. You are supposed to help me answer the question, you know. Okay, the circle of the wheel of life in three lifetimes.

Yeah, yeah, typically in the wheel of life, people like to, people like to, well, I mean, before I went deep into the learning of this wheel of life, I thought it only happens one life per circle. But after we went in, dive into the circle more deeply, I realized that typically the wheel is considered to happen in three lifetimes. Yeah, so the first and the second, after, so the first one will cause the second, that will trigger the second, the second will trigger the third, and so on.

And so it is said that the second will trigger the third, but this third will happen in the next life, next lifetime. So our third link in this lifetime should have come from the second link from the previous life. And then we go on, three trigger four, four trigger five, six, seven, eight, nine, and then ten will, ten is the ripen, and then eleven will happen in the next life.

So that makes the circle is to be completed in three lifetimes. Yeah, wow, I see all the questions are coming in. So yeah, so that is typically the three lifetimes that we are talking about.

And if you, if you go deeper, if you think further, second link will trigger the third link in the next lifetime. And then if you realize that in this lifetime, you, we are triggering a lot of link number one that will trigger link number two. And then if you imagine that link number two trigger the link number three in the next lifetime, imagine how many lifetime you may have already triggered by having the misunderstanding.

Yeah, so it's not just we trigger the first link once, and then we trigger our third link once. If every moment we are triggering, if every moment we have the misunderstanding, we are triggering link number one that will trigger link number two that will trigger link number three. It's kind of scary.

It's kind of scary. How many next lives are we triggering by being ignorant of the misunderstanding of the link number one? You know, and then another realization that I learned is that as long as we don't stop the misunderstanding, we are triggering the next life endlessly.

Well, that's kind of scary, you know, that kind of scary when we talk about this life, this will is as a will of suffering. We want to quickly end the will. We want to quickly end all the wills.

We want to stop the wills from being reproduced every time. And thinking that link number two is triggering link number three, triggering next life endlessly, that is kind of scary. So, yeah.

And yeah, thank you, Mary, for the comment. Yeah, all these books tie together. It really makes sense.

And understanding from one book will lead us to understand the other books more easily. And yeah, by listening carefully to all the books, all the discussions, it helps us to appreciate the content of the other books at the same time. That is my take on this.

And then Aria asked the next question, which kind of misunderstanding will lead to the first branch of the will of life? Aria was in my group in the SCIM term. And she asked me this question and I postponed the answer.

Aria, do you want to turn on your video so for people to see you? Okay, she's shy. What kind of misunderstanding will lead to the first branch of the will of life?

We say it's the view of destruction. It's a view of destruction. And what is this view of destruction?

It consists of not understanding the cause and effect, not understanding the cause and effect. So that was what Geshe Michael just now discussed in Adam's book, right? If that happens, this happens.

So that is basically the basis of the cause and effect. If we don't understand the cause and effect, that is the first misunderstanding. And then the second component of that is that misunderstanding of me and mine.

This is me. Mine refers to my part. This is me.

This is my part. This belongs to me. You know, that misunderstanding is these two.

These two components are the main idea that will lead, that will trigger the first link of the will of life. So we are learning so many things here. Basically, because we want to get out of this misunderstanding.

And Mary has a good question. If we can reach enlightenment and help all sentient beings to end their suffering, will they still have to go through all 12 branches? Well, first of all, we need to understand what is this will.

What this will is all about. This will is the, I would say, the metaphor of the suffering in this life. Suffering in the six realms.

And the suffering refers to the, basically, there are three kinds of suffering that we talk about, right? The suffering of suffering, all the negative things, falling sick, heartbroken, don't have money, you know, all these are the suffering of suffering. And then second is the suffering of change.

I call it the suffering of the positive. Seeds are being used up, you know. Suffering of the positive means today I have money, but if I don't continue to replant the seeds, my money will run out.

Today I have a good relationship with my wife, but if I don't plant the seeds, when the seeds run out, when the seeds run out, I will not have a good relationship. And so on. Or even the health.

I have a good health, but if I don't continue to plant the seeds, my health will run out. This is the second suffering. So suffering of the negative, suffering of the positive, and the last one, pervasive suffering.

Suffering because of the existence of being born. So we want to get out of this will, meaning that we want to get out of all these sufferings. And when we talk about enlightenment, enlightenment entails two things.

The getting out of the will, which represents the mental affliction, the negative emotions. And then second part is that the correct worldview, the correct worldview. Understanding about Geshe Michael used the term pen story, or the two husbands in the kitchen.

So if we get out of the will, that means we are out of the 12 branches. That is halfway through the enlightenment. So we have not even reached enlightenment.

So if we can get out of the will, that means we don't have to go through the 12 branches. So to answer Mary's question, basically enlightenment is much further along the way. Meaning that we are already out of the will, and then we have also completed the correct worldview.

So yeah, they don't have to go through these 12 branches. Okay, Aria, are you happy with my answer, or is it too simple for you? Okay, and anybody else has a...

Okay, yay, Aria appeared. Thank you.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it feels better, you know, when you turn on your video, at least I can see you. Yeah, Luca, thank you for turning on the video. Okay, Aria will speak in Chinese, and then we'll translate to English for Juan.

Or maybe Juan can translate directly to Spanish from Chinese. We never know. Yeah, Aria, please.

Aria.

[Speaker 3]
Okay. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
okay question from Aria is that when the seeds when the seed opens it it will open through one of the organs sense organs so how do we how do we how does the seed determine which sense organ to come out rather than all is that the question okay so well if I were to look at it from the wheel of life there is no mention about which sense of organ will the seeds will open and in fact from the wheel of life itself we only say that it will go through the sense organ the five or six sense organs as represented by the fifth link which is the house with six windows right so it is talking about the seeds going to come out from the sense organs before it interacts with the with the outside with the outside of the world so if if strictly from the wheel of life we we there is well we we can only say that the seeds itself will open according to to the nature so there is really no answer on this one and I would say I would say that there is another there should be there should be something else that determine how the seeds will open through the sense organ yeah so in short I can only say I don't know from the wheel of life I really don't know how which sense organ it will choose I don't know anybody has any other any other opinion on this one yeah I I really don't know yeah there could be some other factor that will determine which sense organ the seeds will open yeah okay okay Alaya Vijnana the storehouse consciousness okay yeah so yeah I saw another notes in the chat by Rick Sindhoji since all beings contain Buddha nature there is nothing to fix or liberate and bodhisattvas deliberately manifest like Lotus in mud we had a I think we had a discussion about this topic a while ago I I don't remember when I don't remember when when was it and I remember I had this discussion with some of the people and I think if I remember correctly if I remember correctly there is this discussion about the Buddha nature the discussion about this Buddha nature well I think there are I would approach from the from the statement that Rick Sindhoji wrote here since all beings contain Buddha nature there is nothing to fix or liberate so if we were to go into the division of the Buddha's body right so this we always say that Buddha nature is one quarter of the Buddha's body is part of the Buddha's mind so we divide the Buddha's body into the the rupa kaya and the dharma kaya the physical body and the dharma body and we know the physical body consists of the sambhogakaya the enjoyment and the what's the term wasan I forgot the English name emanation emanation so the enjoyment and the emanation body and then the dharma body is the yeah and then the dharma body is the Buddha's nature and the emptiness of the Buddha's mind right so based on these four division the the Buddha nature is 25% one quarter of the Buddha's body so I was saying there was a discussion on this one and I think it was pretty I would say it was pretty what to call that it was pretty controversial in our discussion so maybe I shouldn't bring it up here but coming back to here is one quarter one quarter so yes we don't have to fix the Buddha's nature the one quarter but what about the three quarter you know so based on this simple logic I would say that we still need to work on the three quarter one quarter is it's a good it's a good good good size and it will give us a good start but the three quarters is also important we still need to work on the three quarters and if we and then we talk about how do we have the physical body and how do we have the rupakaya and how do we have the dharmakaya right so rupakaya is produced by our deeds our deeds our virtues and then dharmakaya is produced by our wisdom methods and wisdom right the methods the ways the methods the top top share up method and wisdom so we still need to work on them so we still need to fix we still need to work on all the remaining and bodhisattva deliberately manifest like Lotus in mud yeah so the the analogy of this is that bodhisattva deliberately leave or appear in the in the mud so that they can become a lotus so that they can perfect their practice so that they can have the perfection so it's so beautiful right yeah so I think I think yeah I I I think we really need to remember that we are just like bodhisattva we are just like a lotus we are living among the mud and we really need to perfect our practice let me have a quick look at the link provided yeah well yeah I mean I don't know I don't know uh Riksin Dorje you want to let us know why you give the link here is that related to the statement or the seeds okay the seeds so you you want this is related to your statement is that right oh yeah talking about the Buddha

[Speaker 2]
nature right sorry somebody's saying something oh okay sorry you are pretty soft can you move closer to your mic I can't really hear you yeah I turn off my Bluetooth yeah I can talk directly to the phone thank you my comment just was regarding the Tathagata Garbha and the potentiality of the seeds these imperfections are actually the biju that grow the lotus yeah so there's nothing really to perfect originally the seed grows into the lotus in the alaya the samskara you know the impressions that we are you know the predilections that we're born with this is our this is our karmic body that we bring with this the stuff in which we bring with us to to obtain the spiritual path there's really if it's not something that we have to read like there's not like whack-a-mole you don't look at the world like you have to fix everything liberate all the beings you know there's really not anything to liberate everything was perfect already the bija is perfect that because why the Tathagata Garbha it's in the

[Speaker 1]
Dharma I see so you are saying that because of this Buddha nature Tathagata Garbha things already have the perfect nature in in themselves and there is nothing else to liberate is that what you're

[Speaker 2]
saying you just it's if you're if you're to really liberate one's view then it's a maybe a bad habit to look at the world with the idea that everything needs to go around and fix and all the beings are imperfect and you have to go and liberate them all this is fundamentally an imperfect view in not a good approach it's whack-a-mole you cannot fix everywhere you can whack that wall and then whack that one over there you're not going to fix the moles they keep popping up you're not a good approach to fixing the problem the moles are just naturally in the ground it's okay that's just the nature of the ground the seed in the ground are the nature of the Tathagata Garbha and the seeds will naturally grow and glow into a lotus that's okay okay I like your ideas

[Speaker 1]
here I like what you are thinking and I would say again you know I like to borrow Geshe Michael's term here we need to know what hat we are wearing okay as in which school are we we are talking about so the fact that you give the link that is talking about the Alaya Vijnana I would like to assume that you are talking about the mind only you I mean you are approaching it from the mind only school as compared to the Madhyamika the middle way right so yeah if we all right I would say even in the even in the mind only school sorry you're saying I'm sorry you are you are soft you are too soft I can't really hear you yes that's right yoga charia yoga charia on mind only or Chittamatra right well even even yeah even when we talk about the yoga charia school right we talk about the all the seeds are kept in the Alaya Vijnana and then and then what we see what we see outside is actually part of the seeds that that also produce us so from this perspective from this perfect perspective what we see well I mean then then we can come to a conclude we can agree that what we see outside whether they are good or they are bad they are also coming from from our seeds right they are also coming from the same seeds from our seeds so I can I think we can agree that well I mean I I think you are also correct to say that since Buddha nature is there it is already perfect so there is nothing to perfect outside you know because they have their own Buddha nature and along the same thinking we can also say that the seeds is also coming from inside so well I mean if we see it's perfect it's good means that we just let it blossom naturally but on the other hand if we don't if we see the mud surrounding the lotus it is also coming from our seeds it is also coming from our seeds so so we see both the lotus and the mud and it's good to focus on the lotus on the on the Tathagatagarbha but on the other hand it is also good for us to look at the mud as well and realize that those are those are coming from our seeds and I when I talk about perfection I think it is talking about making the mud making the mud I would say yeah making the mud the mud to become a beautiful environment for the making the mud into I would say Buddha's paradise Buddha's paradise so yeah so eventually we we still need to work on our seeds to make so I use the term perfect here to perfect the whole thing our practice and and to have the lotus living in the Buddha's paradise so yeah and and again I agree with you that we shouldn't be like you say whack-a-mole we just whack whack-a-mole like everything whack-a-mole like everything because we think that they we need to fix them you know so we always need to come back to ourselves and I would say fix what is in us that make us see the mud in the first place yeah so this is what I would say this is what I would say so instead of looking at thing as coming to us and we want to whack them all to liberate to fix and liberate them I would suggest that we look internally and so rather than seeing the lotus in the mud maybe I can make it to see the lotus in the surga Buddha's paradise Buddha's paradise and I like very much the I don't know I'm still very much influenced by the medicine Buddha's retreat that we went through in December you know so the idea there is that we should change or rather we should create our environment into Buddha's paradise as in we have the choice to make it into Buddha's paradise and yeah I think I like that idea very much so yeah I hope that address the questions anybody else has anything to discuss for some of you who might not be aware in DCI level 12 Geshe Michael has invented the ideas of the archaeological digs archaeological layers to represent the schools the different schools so some of you might have heard it when we had the mixed nuts reading club last Friday oh yeah last Friday and then you might also hear some of us referring to the schools as archaeological layers I guess Geshe Michael he mentioned just now he talked about the accountant so accountant is representing the Abhidharma school and then he used the term map maker for the sutras for the logician for the clear thinker and then for the mind only he used the term hippies hippies mind mind mind only oh yeah mind only is also called the yoga chara or citta mantra right the Abhidharma school is called Vibhasika and then the sutras is called Sautantrika and then for the middle way Geshe Michael is using the term swimmer swimmer swimmer because in the in the swimming competition you need to swim on your lane you shouldn't be moving to the left or the right so swimmer is the middle way and lower middle way is the shallow end higher middle way is the deeper end so yeah Geshe Michael used these terms interesting terms you know it I think it helps me to visualize better yeah hypocrites mind only okay well he no hippies he called it hippies not hypocrites hippies the hippies because the hippies have had many new ideas they had many new ideas oh he he even used the term psychedelics you know psychedelics but psychedelics is a bit negative so personally I like to use the term hippies yeah so yeah mind only had many many I would say ideas radical ideas radical ideas like the hippies did in the past yeah so so get used to hearing all these terms especially during the during the during the from now on you know I believe I think once we get used to the terms those are pretty convenient to use hypocrites want all the fancy and zen at the same time yeah they want everything they want everything yeah hippie crits interesting yeah okay anybody else anybody else Gina how are you so you are in Mexico City or Guadalajara hmm are you in Mexico City or Guadalajara Guadalajara Guadalajara okay so it's what it's nine o'clock now correct 9 p.m oh okay you look you look you look fresh huh you look fresh amazing amazing yeah wow how many years have we not met three years I think three years right two two years 2019 okay it felt very long wow okay anybody else I saw um um sophie oh one more risk okay etymology of the word scar and samsara sanskara okay scar scar okay and sanskara I don't know scar and sanskara what what what are you uh trying to say yeah I mean we are in the sanskara sansara so yeah we have lots of scars

[Speaker 2]
yeah there was a there was one really interesting discussion uh where we were talking uh through the karma that you bring with you from the past life okay I see I wanted to maybe suggest the technical term rather than using the karma from the past life etymologically the word scar the impression that's left in your flesh from a past wound is something which is actually you know the predilections that guide one to take birth in a particular circumstance at the moment of inception based on what that past karmic impression so a karmic impression where some people would say maybe an Ibrahimic residue maybe lead you to become you know born in a Christian circumstance because you're attracted to that you know in your spiritual nature or you may become born as some other being in an animal realm because you're attracted to that in the impressions of your nature yeah samsara is what carries that that scar that's all the trauma from all of your past lives

[Speaker 1]
yeah I think it's for in the in the negative sense it is it gives a good metaphor of the karma as scar so yeah we bring with it the the wound past wound scar yeah but how about positive you know because it has to cover the positive meaning too so I don't know whether

[Speaker 2]
then you use the term predilections predilection right yeah predilection it's the things that guide you towards either attraction or aversion which is inseparable that karmic matrix is sukkha dukkha right it is with attraction or aversion sukkha dukkha it's inseparable the two are bound

[Speaker 1]
sukkha dukkha well yeah sukkha dukkha well I mean scar people relate scar more to dukkha

[Speaker 2]
rather than sukkha you know so see that's the pre that's the predilection aspect you might be attracted to sweets to the point where you know you eat so much that you're you're you know you have a problem with your weight you know that's your that's your karmic you carry with you

[Speaker 1]
yeah I mean yeah predilection certain certain people has a certain predilection on that one yeah well I mean personally personally I relate this more to the negative sides rather than the positive so there are no negative positives right all things are samsara right that's true that's true yeah well I think it's interesting for a good discussion further discussion yeah well I mean yeah I mean in in DCI we are trying to use more neutral terms for modern people to embrace our ideas yes and I thank you I am just

[Speaker 2]
you know a sardonic imp a fly on the wall who has absolutely no responsibility to hold the you know professional image for a time yeah I can you know be just a fly in a suit and come in and out you know and leave a stain of mud if I care to yeah thank you I appreciate it I think I think

[Speaker 1]
stain can be a good term I don't know stain also negative yeah we can't say positive stain

[Speaker 2]
this is why I like to use the term sardonic imp because you know it's got to be so sardonic sardonic you know so okay oh wow as we were examining with logic you know the nature of the teachings uh with the tool of sarcasm right to to to test them then we use a little bit of sarcasm a little bit of of humor a little bit of edginess it helps us to sharpen our intellect to anneal the blade

[Speaker 1]
yeah so yeah I hope I hope uh our translators can follow our discussions we are using all the terms which are interesting okay uh we are at the hour so thank you very much for your participation thank you very much for the discussion especially uh rickson dodger and aria and somebody else right oh yeah mary yeah mary so yeah good vocabulary training isabel I'm wondering whether you got the last term sardonic anyway okay uh thank you very much for your time and uh we shall see you on the western side of the globe see you tomorrow morning on the eastern side of the globe see you tonight yes I don't need yeah okay so thank you very much and see all of you again and and thank you very much for supporting the mixed nuts program okay this is very dear to Geshe Michael's Geshe Michael and it is also very dear to me I'm doing whatever I can to promote this program to everybody so bye-bye see you I'm going to end the call thank you