Сугэн Ши — Книга 2: Колесо жизни (первый принцип и подразделения зависимости), занятие 71

[Speaker 1]
Good afternoon. Good evening. Good late night.

Morning, Nick. Hi. How are you, Sugeng?

I'm very good, thank you. Good. Where in the world are you these days?

I'm in Singapore now. I can tell by your picture. No, it is not.

Maybe I should change something more Singapore-y. Some noodles. Noodles?

No, I can't find... Oh, no, this is... It's okay.

I like it. Good to see you, everybody. In case you haven't guessed already, today we have a class with Sugeng on the Wheel of Life.

So, we're up for some entertainment and some amazing ideas from Master Vasubandhu. And... Yay!

Thank you for joining us. Thank you for continually coming to these amazing, mind-busting classes at Shonsang's Tower. And thank you, of course, to all of our interpreters.

We will try to go slow enough for you, right Sugeng? We will speak moderately slow. For the benefits of my seat in helping the translators doing translation.

Yeah. Thank you. Doesn't have to be too slow.

Definitely. Thank you. Yeah, are you ready, Sugeng?

Yes. All right. Thank you very much, the team, for supporting me today, or now, or tonight.

So, let's go through my homework. We discussed about, we spoke about this, we covered this when I was in Kyoto. So, I hope people still can remember what we discussed.

So, the first question is, according to Master Vasubandhu, why do we still see people who are blind, deaf, etc.? Does anyone remember? We see them because of our negative karma, but why are they blind and deaf and so on?

Yeah, I think Venerable had answered it in the chat box. Thank you. Yeah, I was happy that a lot of us were there and I got to see all of you in person.

Thank you. So, yes, basically, we say that not all six consciousness cross the next link. And like, as Venerable Khet pointed out, any details of the raw karma will create the corresponding details of the consciousness, and this will trigger the body and mind.

And then they will create the corresponding six doors of sense, just accordingly. Thank you. Next question.

So, following that discussion, the next question would be, what could be the implication to say that the mind entering the womb is the factor that creates the mind in the boat with two persons inside the womb? So, when we said that the mind entering the womb, which is number three, link number three, is the factor that triggers the mind in the boat, which is link number four inside the womb. So, I hope my question is clear enough.

Yeah, it might imply that the cause is not consciousness. The cause, yeah, yeah, that is pretty close. That is pretty close.

Or that there is no consciousness before the mind decides to enter the womb. Precisely, yes, that's what we discussed in Kyoto. So, we might think that there is no mind before we enter the womb.

And I kind of like the play of logics here. So, let's continue with that tone, right? Why were we discussing about cancelling link number three, which is consciousness from the will of life?

Oh, now I get to use my answer, right? Yes, please. What did you say just now?

Yeah, same as earlier, because we're saying that the baby in the womb before was the cause of the sense powers. And then? Oh, I don't know.

I'd have to go look at number two again. Oh, and then thus we wouldn't need consciousness to be the cause of the sense powers? Very close, very close.

Can you rephrase again? Can you rephrase again? Can I look at question number two again?

This is where I got it. Oh, okay, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah.

Let's see. Right, since the mind entering the womb is the factor that creates the mind in the boat, we don't need consciousness to act as the link which causes the mind in the boat? Yeah, yeah, because we agreed that link number two, fresh karma, triggers link number three, consciousness.

And it is also the factor for link number four, which is name and form. So we are saying that link number two triggers link number three and also triggers link number four. So if this is the case, then we don't need link number three.

We can directly jump to link number four. Right. So, yeah, we are in the midst of this discussion of, you know, coming from somebody who is the master in the mind only.

He was trying to argue that we don't need the consciousness. So, yeah, and we end up here. Before we go to the next topic, which is Geshe Michael was saying, a dead duck would still be quacking.

So we will look at that later. Yeah, Geshe-la said that right. It becomes the details?

Corresponding details. Thank you. Well, I mean, all these are mostly for my own record.

I think all these are good vocabulary for me to know. So I just make them into the homework so that I can always refer them back. I mean, that is like, what is it would be appropriate for that to be like that?

Yes, this is what I have in my note. Yeah. Thank you.

Okay. Okay. I hope this is accurate enough.

Me too. I'm not totally sure. Thank you.

I bet you're doing great. All right. Okay, let's go.

Oops. Sorry. I ran away.

Let me go back to the text. Okay, so this is the part that Geshe Michael asked me to attempt to translate. Translation.

Yeah, I think that's correct English. All right, so. Okay, let me read first.

So, yeah, I had a clue from Geshe Michael's notes. And then I checked the words and grammar itself. And then this is what I think the translation.

Forgive me. What happened leading into this? That was the topic about cancelling link number three.

About the being in a formless realm doesn't have the body, doesn't have the physical form. So the homework questions were the context leading into this part. Yes.

Yes. Okay. We also end this class with something about having to cancel link number two.

And someone came along and said, hey, we got to cancel link number two. We didn't really talk about link number two, but mostly on the link number three. Okay, let's have a quick review.

Hopefully that's helpful. I reviewed myself, but I think it's good to re-review again. So that I am more.

I have a better, even better understanding. So we stop here. So we started here.

Maybe I read the rough translation, right? It does not make sense to say that all six consciousness cross to the next link. Any details of the raw karma will create the corresponding details of the consciousness.

And this will trigger the body and mind. And then they will create the corresponding six stars of sense. So this was what the venerable kept mentioned just now.

Or type in the chat box. If the details of the raw karma didn't cause the details of the consciousness. Then you could not say that link number two caused link number three.

I think this is somebody else or we or I don't know who. I think somebody else, right? And then Lord Buddha asked Ananda whether the consciousness enters the mother's womb.

Or does it grow inside the womb? And. And.

We say or somebody say, what does it mean if it didn't enter the womb? And we say that you cannot say that the mind is created. By an object.

Instead, the seeds are carried by the consciousness, making the crossing into a birth in the mother's womb. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

So Geshe-la was saying that. Is it because of your seeds that you are seeing the pen? Or is it because the pen has been put in front of your eyes that you see the pen?

Right. What was the Tibetan we were using here for object? Kevalism.

Jodhved. Vipassana. Anima.

Gyaldo. Juparit. Yeah.

Where's the object? I don't know. I just transcribed what was discussed.

Mind being created by object. Yeah. Adam, are you not feeling well?

Your sound? Yeah. Yeah, I'm still not 100%.

I'm, you know, I told you guys my class I was getting over COVID. It's still kind of lingering a little bit. And then I got shot in the eye by a Nerf dart and had to go to the urgent care.

Oh, no. It was a Nerf dart. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Anyway. Thank you for coming.

I'm on the mend. The Nerf dart killed the COVID. Oh, my goodness.

That's the new form of injection. You must be doing some really hard work here, Adam. To have all these kinds of negativities popping up.

Yeah, I started reciting a diamond cutter. I think that's kind of in hand. Okay.

Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean to bog us down there. Oh, gosh.

Sorry to hear that. No, it's an interesting point. Yeah, we're looking at, this isn't a translation as much as it is a transcription of what was said.

Transcription. Yeah, I know. Sorry about that.

I didn't go through the corresponding words. Yeah, there is nothing about object here, right? It looks like it's saying, what crosses into a new birth.

The consciousness which crosses into a new birth. It doesn't enter the mother's womb. Looks like that's all, right?

Yeah. It doesn't make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It doesn't, it's not logical that it enters the mother's womb. Or it doesn't make sense. That's fine.

Is that right? Okay. Take out the doesn't in the end.

The doesn't at the end. Oh. Oh, okay.

That the new birth. Enters or something. Which crosses to the new birth, enters the mother's womb.

It does. Oh, okay. Okay, cool.

Thank you. Wow. I'm lucky that we go through this again.

Right. I'll put this. All right.

And then we continue. What you can say is that the consciousness, which is well smeared by first karma, enters the mother's womb via the objects ready to open in the mind to the in-between being. I don't know.

Is this how we. Yeah. So.

There's an Andrade objection here as well. Objection? Oh, okay.

An Andrade objection, meaning that there's no object. Oh, yeah, that's true. There is some smearing though.

Smearing. Some well smearing. Well smeared.

Come give me your objections. There's object, right? The objection of the object.

Oh, gosh. Yeah. You got to get rid of the objects.

Yeah. It's not even. It is logical that it enters the mother's room in a continuous flow.

A continuous flow. The continuous flow of the intermediate being. Yeah.

Yeah. Meaning like directly after. Yeah.

You could say in a continuous flow, but I think it just means like as as like a direct result almost. Yeah. Or as a continuation of or something.

Yeah. Continuation of it. Continuation of the intermediate being.

Yeah. Oh, I see. Right.

Because Michael said via the stream. Oh, look at that. Oh.

Stream. Stream. Oh, okay.

Continuation flow. Continuation. Okay.

Stream. And. Continuation of the intermediate being.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Logical that enters the mother's room as a continuation of the intermediate being.

Isn't it. It flows without.

[Speaker 2]
It is logical.

[Speaker 1]
Instead of saying it, you could say. The. The consciousness that is well smeared by.

Fresh karma. Probably well smeared, isn't it? Great translation.

Or did you have a suggestion? About the previous thing about well smeared. Imprinted or planted.

Yeah. Great. You're saying we should, I should be using.

Instead of well smeared. Well, what did you say? You could say imprinted or planted.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that we need to do anything to catch the young Sue?

Or is it kind of. Have we done it that way? Countless times in the mind only, but.

You could say deeply imprinted or something, but it's just a. Young Sue is the Sanskrit prefix. And.

Yeah, it does. It is an emphasizer, but. They often don't.

You don't really have to translate. You could say deeply, but I don't know. I don't think you have to.

I like the deep printed. Yeah. It's easy.

The question is. It's logical to enter. It is.

I would make it parallel to the previous. So if you start the previous sentence with it does not make sense. And I would start this sentence would say it does make sense to say that.

But you can change it around to input. Yeah. Okay.

Logical somewhere else or reasonable or whatever. And terse. Or is it.

I'm going to assume as a continuation of the intermediate. Okay. Thank you.

You can follow further with this thinking. When the blood and semen come together, you get name and form. It could be true, but then it would have to be senseless.

Therefore, on what basis do we call it a fetus? Spelling of fetus. Did I did I write correctly?

No, that might be like a British one or something. I don't know. I think it's made up.

It's made up. Yeah. Like that.

I'm sorry. Yeah. With the diphthong OE, the combined OE.

Oh, is that what it is? It is. Looks like an enemy fetus.

What? I was looking at the chat. Okay.

Yeah, this is true. It's now finally feels familiar. Okay.

I don't have any more object here. This one. Oh, you don't.

Minor thing. When you put a footnote marker. You do.

If there's closing punctuation. Oh, I put after the dot. After the.

Full stop.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
With no space before the number.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Or between the punctuation and the number. Which word likes that for some reason. It just automatically does things.

So I have to do it after the full stop, right? After whatever punctuation. After a comma.

[Speaker 3]
I see.

[Speaker 1]
After a question mark. Yeah. Okay.

Full stop and comma and whatever. Okay. Yeah.

This is all. This has always been my questions. Thank you.

I was always wondering where should I put them? Yeah. Can I ask you questions?

So at the footnote. We use the same font size. Is that right?

Things get changed later. Okay. Okay.

I'm kind of confused. But. But is this.

Is this way of writing. Correct. Yes.

Okay. Same font size. And then this Italic.

And the rest is. What do you call that? What is this?

This is called. Yeah. Justified.

Justified. Okay. Yeah.

All right. Okay. So.

Yeah. So. Does.

Do we want to. Does this sentence make sense? Do these sentences make sense?

Yes. Yeah, it does. It's interesting.

Just curious how we come to this. Standard. Right.

But to call something a fetus. It should have to have senses. But of course, our senses haven't come yet till the next link.

Yeah. So it's interesting that someone is making this complaint that in order to call something a fetus. It's, it should have to have senses.

Yeah. And you might want to consider using. Phraseology like it would have to be without senses, because we've just been talking about what's logical and not logical.

And when you have senseless show up like that, people may think that what you mean there is that. That's not a good idea. It would be senseless.

Oh, that's good. That's helpful. It's it's neither of those, actually.

Oh, yeah. The quintuple just means without consciousness. That's this form of it.

It doesn't mean without senseless or illogical. Guess what? Guess what?

Said senseless in Kyoto. Yeah. OK.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. This way.

But without consciousness is accurate. Right. You are saying without consciousness is is a logical way to say quintuple means means something like senseless.

Like if you got punched in the head and you fell down, you'd be senseless. But what or consciousness? Yeah.

Yeah. So. The wording needs to be worked out because of what Ben Upala is saying.

I agree. I totally agree. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. He's right there.

You could just say unconscious. Yeah. Unconscious could.

Oh, it would have to be unconscious. Yeah, that is. Yeah.

That seems safe. You don't want. You also don't want to make the mistake of thinking that it's because we haven't gotten to link five yet, that we don't have senses.

Right. Because we don't have Ayadana's, not to mention illogical. Thank you.

Which is how I took it. Yeah. Yeah.

That's what I thought it was referring to at first. Total. Yeah.

No, no. Look at it. It might be true.

But OK. All right.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
That's that's that's the big danger. OK. Well, good.

All right. Hmm. OK.

OK. Let's move on. Right.

So we continue. If you don't need your mother's room, why don't your body and mind just pop up? Therefore, I think it's wrong that you just need karma to enter your mother's womb.

I mean, Gisela put it in this interesting way. So I don't. I hope.

Oh, he said, why doesn't it pop out when the blood touches the semen? Yeah. There's no point of having a womb at all.

Yeah. I mean, that is the the implication of the discussion. Yeah.

And if you were working on the translation, I mean, just simply, it says if if you weren't born into the mother's womb, it doesn't say if you don't need it. It's probably doesn't say you don't need it. Right.

Yeah. Why don't you or just why don't your. Me, Kayla, if you weren't born into the.

Me, Kayla. Me, Kayla. Oh, it doesn't get you.

Michael's notes. If the person is not born into the mother's womb. OK, let me rewrite.

If the person. Is not. Born.

Me, Kayla. Does. Does not get born.

How do you say me, Kayla? It's not born. Is not born.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I didn't mean to. I was just correcting you before I noticed that. Michael already wrote it.

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Into. Mommy's. Into.

Mother's womb. Then. Oh, OK.

In any day. Are they being done? So keep on.

Oh, yeah. So it would just be birth of name and form. Yeah.

Yeah. OK. At that time.

Yeah. It can be. They kill or mimic.

So we couldn't say that. It would be incorrect to say that it came from that, that they were born from that condition. Yeah.

Started from that condition. It came from. It came from that condition.

Right. Yeah. I mean, it's the same verb as.

OK, well. Yeah. It started.

Or whatever you want. OK. It's the same condition.

OK. Meaning the mother's womb. This is the condition.

I think so. I think it must be the condition of being in the mother's womb. OK.

Yeah. OK. And this one.

So until the time that you die, your consciousness exists because you have body and mind inside your mother's womb. Then they made the crossing between death and rebirth. OK.

I'm not mad. I'm not mad. OK.

Something about if consciousness is triggered by name and form. Yes. Which one?

Something about triggering. If name and form are the trigger. I'm just looking at that phrase.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, OK. OK.

[Speaker 1]
That has to be in there somewhere. Yeah. I choose.

I put body and mind to instead of name and form. Oh, sorry. Body and mind.

For the Ming Dang Suk.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Because, you know. Is it possible that the Nolpor here is just means something. So is it saying something like as for the consciousness that exists up until you die or existed up until you died.

They rely on something that crossed into. Oh, they are the very thing that crossed into the new life as your consciousness. So name and form instead of consciousness.

Oh, yeah. It's a thing. Nolpor stay here, too.

Right. So, yeah. Whatever is appropriate for Nolpor Shepa to Nyingtsam Jorwa.

On account of teaching. Or, yeah, I guess Jitar, right? I guess in this case, right?

How could it be? On account of. Teaching that the.

Yeah, it's the direct. Right. Name and form are the direct factor.

For. Nolpor Shepa for awareness. Yeah.

So until the time you die, your consciousness exists because you have a body and mind. Oh, yeah. That's the Jitar, yeah.

Yeah. Right. So you have to.

Mimic this language, right, Sugeng? That says then from that, because it follows this reasoning. So they lay down, I guess it's.

But if from that or something. Young, there's a problem. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, we talked about it. We talked about it in Kyoto.

OK. Elaborate, please, if you would say. The argument is basically it's problematic to say that consciousness is the thing that can become body and mind because consciousness is nothing like body and mind.

Yeah, I was talking about that. Yeah, that's the gist. So, yeah, they lay down.

It. It can't be that way until the time you die.

[Speaker 2]
Mashi Pardo.

[Speaker 1]
Because consciousness. Consciousness is the thing that triggers name and form directly. That's.

Name and form are doing the action. No. No.

Not for me. Not for shape, but is equivalent to me. Ming dong.

So he can. That's what I'm saying. The tree.

All right. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's the knee is supposed to be showing that it's equivalent.

Somehow, it's it's the. This book is so hard. It's the trigger for what?

Consciousness is now the trigger for name and form, right? Well, it definitely is, three and four, three to four, but I hear what Vibhu Upadhyay is saying about the grammar too. Okay, so if that's true then, that up until the time you die, consciousness acts as the trigger for name and form, then how would it be appropriate to say that consciousness is the thing that takes another look, that takes another birth?

Yeah, so I still think that consciousness is triggered by name and form. Let's see, Namphar Shepa is the trigger of name and form. Namphar Shepa is the trigger of name and form, Ming Dang is the key, Ken.

I think the key, yeah, name and form, right, if we just take the key as an apostrophe S. It is. Then...

No, that key after Ken. Oh, the key after, oh, by that, it's... By that.

No, it's saying consciousness, the trigger for name and form, does this action. Does this action. I'll put it, do this action.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay, that's what action here, the crossing.

Yeah, how is it appropriate that it does the crossing into the next life directly? Well, the question that Geshe Michael asked in Kyoto was who makes the crossing if there's no body and mind until you get to the womb? Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

Right. I'm just a student of this language, I have no real grasp of it. Okay, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, but if Geshe-la said that, it's still saying, I think we all agree then, because nam par sepa, is it appropriate that consciousness, which is the trigger for name and form, is what crosses directly into the next life? He does, he does do it oppositely in the notes. I know that he has told us over and over again to take his notes with a grain of salt, but it does at least alert us that there's some ambiguity there, which is different than solving the problem.

Ambiguity of what? Oh, that it could, the tension between these two possibilities, whether consciousness is being discussed here as a trigger for name and form, or whether name and form are being discussed here as a trigger for consciousness. And it does seem possible to take it that way, nam par sepa ni, ming dang tsug, name and form, gi ken, that factor, the factor of which is, if you take gi to be, which is name and form, then they, you see, if nam par sepa exists up until birth, the consciousness exists until you die, you know, caused by gi, that factor.

The syntax is weird, the word order is a little funny, but I guess, yeah, again, just to another student of the language, which proves nothing. Okay. So, you know, but Gisha Michael Wright seems to be talking about the condition of name and form, which it's ambiguous even in the English.

But I think he means the condition that is name and form are what is sustaining consciousness until the time of death.

[Speaker 2]
Does that seem like what he's suggesting in the note?

[Speaker 1]
But it's true. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. When I read this sentence again, it seems that what Venerable Pala was saying, I mean, this matches what Venerable Pala was saying, right? It seems that name and form is the condition for the consciousness.

It does seem that way here. It does, I'm afraid, which is a little uncomfortable, but agreed. But that's okay because we are complaining about it.

Right. Exactly. So that's okay.

It should be wrong. This is supposed to be the other party. I don't know.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Right. Yeah. Well, but doesn't it seem normally right?

Isn't this the way the world thinks of it? So it's okay because, yeah, name and form stuff happens in front of your eyes. And then that fires laser beams through your eye holes, which makes your minds do stuff.

So, yeah, this would be a normal model that we're disputing. So I think that's okay. That's okay.

I can accept that. This is the fact of life. Thank you.

Yeah. Right. So if you say that, it's good.

So if you say that name and form is what's sustaining, right, triggering, being the trigger, the sustenance for consciousness throughout the course of your life, then what's allowing consciousness to cross from one life to another? There's some problem with name and form being able to be there to be the trigger during that process, or the, I want to say the, what do you call the guy in the movie theater with the flashlight? Flashlight?

The usher? The usher. Right.

Yes, that's it. Right. How will, if you don't have name and form, right, to usher consciousness over the line between death and rebirth, then how does consciousness make the crossing?

All right. I can get it. I mean, yes, maybe this is the other person making some wrong arguments.

Anyway, yeah. Geshe-la always said that continue and then we will come back when we get some clues along the way. Thank you.

Let's Ningsham Jarwa. Ningsham Jarwa? When we crossover?

Let us cross the line into the next section. Let us cross over. Yes, let's do Ningsham Jarwa.

If it's just body and mind that goes there to the next line, or if the consciousness also follows? Probably not consciousness. Yeah, this is, yeah.

So, what this sutra is saying that if the name and form consisting of the five hips is triggered by the condition of consciousness, then how could a consciousness which is doing the crossing to a new life, acts as a condition for the name and form which were occurring simultaneous to it? You were correct before, act. Consciousness.

No, when you say how could. How could the consciousness. Consciousness.

Consciousness is plural or singular?

[Speaker 3]
No, it is singular. If you didn't have that how could in front of you.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, okay. Yes.

[Speaker 3]
Then you wouldn't have it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I forgot it could. Yeah. How could it act as a condition for the name and form which are occurring simultaneous to it?

Thank you. Nice, Sugeng. Which one?

The how could or the. No, the delay. What is the sutra saying?

Ah, the delay. By the condition of the consciousness. So, the five hips.

Yes, that's right. The five hips, which are the name and form. So, the consciousness crossing.

Wow, this comes again, right? Wow, this is a useful format. How could if the name, oh yeah, if the name and form consists of five hips, it's triggered by the condition of consciousness.

Then how could a consciousness, which acts as a condition. I think this looks okay. Any comments?

No, this seems reasonable. All right. Thank you.

I agree. Let's move on. Yes.

And. Do Chime, can you know? Oops.

Why did I have so long? Oh, yeah. So, if suppose you said that the mind entering the womb is a factor that creates the mind and the body is in the womb.

Well, I mean, I just tried to explain this short sentence here. So, I don't know. I hope it makes sense.

Yeah, you might want to leave it a little bit more simple as what they're doing. The mind in the boat. The mind in the boat.

Well, I was using the same, I used the logic I had before in the previous paragraphs to expand this. But anyway, okay. I will put this in the bracket and simplify.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Yeah. It seems, it seems right, though, if you're saying that name and form are the factor that was necessary to trigger consciousness, then how can consciousness trigger name and form?

And then an easy answer would be to say, well, consciousness triggers a later incidence of name and form. You don't have the problem that somehow the cause is also, the cause of a thing is also its result because something is causing a thing and then a later instance is being a result, right? Yeah.

It seems like the perfect next question. It's not the same name and form that did the causing of consciousness that consciousness is causing. It's a later name and form.

Yeah, I think, yeah, this is the next question, right? Well, then what is the condition for the body and mind? Good.

Good. Good. Sounds good.

Okay. Sounds good. All right.

You had a good mind. All right, then let's continue. Must be my name and form triggering.

The previous or the next one? Yeah. Anyway, I'm confused.

Okay. I'm very confused. I need to listen to the recording again.

Do we want to make someone read? That's usually a good way to start. Oh yeah, I forgot.

Oh, sorry. Yeah. All right.

I was too engrossed here. Sure. It's very engrossing.

We made some progress. Maybe.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Well, let's see if we can put a stop to that by having someone read. Yeah. My reader, the first reader is always, as you can guess, Venerable Cat, please.

Right. Well, thank you, sir.

[Speaker 3]
Good morning.

[Speaker 1]
Good morning.

[Speaker 3]
Are you back in Diamond Mountain already? Yes. Yeah.

Came back pretty directly. So it's been a full holiday season in the neighborhood.

[Speaker 1]
Cool. Thank you. Thank you.

Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 3]
I remember why I forgot to ask.

[Speaker 1]
You did great. You did great. Thank you.

I was saying that I remember why I forgot to ask people to read because we are not doing something new. This is basically a review of what we had done in Kyoto. But I think it's good to read again though.

So yeah. So this is the English and Kendo Chino Shinrayo. Oh, good God, you're waiting for us.

Yes, okay, let's see, right, you said, if you reply that the trigger for body and mind and the wound is fresh karma. Oh, no, we're down here. Yes.

Then why? Oh, the trigger for body and mind. It seems like kendo-je, right, the trigger for fresh, like if you call it that, the de-ni, the trigger for both, right, the trigger for both name and form and consciousness, ni-ka, both of those, then, yeah, yenlock means later?

I don't see, this seems to be how Geshe Michael took it. If fresh karma is the trigger for both consciousness and name and form, then why do you need to He's saying, why would you call it a link, yenlock? Yeah, why do you need to give a named link after consciousness?

Just call that, call consciousness and name and form something, give that a name. And that can be the thing that got triggered by fresh karma, instead of having two things there. It's not after the consciousness, it's like a name.

Why would you need a link for consciousness?

[Speaker 3]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Jim Michael wrote named after, like. Why do you need to give a name for the consciousness link? Yeah, or make it its own link, I think is the idea.

Right. Why do you need to call it its own, why do you need to call consciousness a link? Well, this is what Geshe was saying.

The reasoning was, if Nampa Shepa was not like mind, and that was the link for mind, how could Duje be the link for consciousness, if Dujes are nothing like consciousness? Yeah, that's the idea behind it. I don't know the wording.

That's what he said. Um, right. What, what thing has written here?

Sorry, can you repeat again the background you're saying, the context? Well, we just had the, in the previous sentence, that short one, he said, when he taught it that generally speaking, mind creates mental events and physical things create physical things. Yes.

So that's his like, segue between the two. Yes. So, exactly.

So therefore, how can a, how can something, which is a Denman Duche create something which is mind? Right. And then if you say something which is a consciousness can't create a physical thing, then you're saying that two can't create three, because two is a Denman Duche and not a mental thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Right. Um, okay, but here in this sentence line, though, doesn't, right, it seems to be the solution that the guy is coming up with for that is somehow consciousness comes along with it. It's okay, because Duche, fresh karma is triggering name and form and consciousness.

So I don't have the problem, maybe, of saying that fresh karma is causing consciousness. I didn't, I'm not saying that, I'm saying it causes both, it causes name and form and consciousness comes along with it. So, which doesn't sound super satisfying to me, but maybe that's what the opponent is trying to get away with.

And then we say, well, okay, but if you're saying that fresh karma is the cause for both name and form and consciousness, then why do we call consciousness a link?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And then why call it a link? Unless it's caused by and causing something. Yeah.

Cool. So what is this car here called? Nika.

Nika. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Nika. Oh, both. Oh, I see.

I see. Okay. All right.

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Thank you. Okay. Okay.

Get someone to read and have them read slow. Okay. Okay.

I see. I think you're in China. Still.

Yes. Okay. Please.

Okay. Thank you. Okay.

Okay. So, Ming, Jiang, Su, name and form, Kona, just those, again, just the factor. I think now we're starting to take this formation as the factor, which is those, or no, here it is.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. But yeah, can you, okay.

Okay. Can you repeat? yeah yeah yeah what difference would there be between yes yeah yeah what would be different about the two moments uh-huh okay cheek Machima the latter moment that one day down cake cheek Machima the latter moment on K bar was what's the difference which two moments okay what great question exactly so the intake I think could be like a because so the first statement has to be some kind of setup for the second statement yes yeah yeah yeah so so right if do J is not oh fresh karma is not the trigger for name and form the only oh thank you thank you yeah right if fresh karma is not the only trigger for name and form then how how is the early how is that moment different from the later moment the moment I'm assuming what and what the moment of what is the difference I think that moment with other triggers with other factors yeah no factors he doesn't say no it's not written there so again we're just the logic he doesn't say if Ben I mean it would be helpful he doesn't yes but it seems it would make more sense if it is an if statement or like some kind of yeah I mean it's a little it's it's iffy uh-huh I mean I guess I'm taking K as like gosh what do you what do you part part participle this happening on because this is happening or something then then this unless you would article unless the young is like a even and like it left me we could change with the young chief shit and that could make sense like I mean I think I think in the especially knowing that this is Sanskrit I think that it's common for the Tay to indicate the past participle meaning like having done X then right um so so right um something like I'm sorry do J fresh karma not being the trigger for name and form only thank you thank you thank you just so just so right then then if you put she shit cuz whichever or whatever then you could it would make sense then I think uh-huh yes then right so keep going then where a young kid chick machima then at any subsequent moment is would wouldn't be different whatsoever or what other trigger I mean as I have been wants to avoid the word Kona I say to you keep our young she guys what what's the difference if I don't say Kona which I keep not saying yeah we need more clarity for this one and hopefully this is a question being asked which delightfully would be answered in the next however no we have reached the end of time and if you don't help us now suging to find a way to apply this to our lives then our hour is virtually lost other than yes no we're always planting seeds we don't have to be conscious of what seems to do exactly oh good okay I think it's all on suging okay sure thank you very much oh gosh check the translation again okay I'm confused okay let's see what can we get out of this discussion first of all I learn a lot about the language itself thank you very much and me go to my text again where did I have it oh here yeah so first I learned the language second I learned to be more careful not just to transcribe but to check through the language again the translation and to question the objects thank you Adam which is good yeah and I realized that yeah it's interesting to go through the translation again because it sharpens the understanding even more yeah all right so anybody does application is to nerf darts and then that'll help you remember to deny objects that were never there in the first place right as I forget who pointed out in the chat wisely that oh I think it was Aisha pointed out that Adam is under assault feeling I don't know if it helps transition us from the philosophical to the practical but I I find myself struggling with this tension right at least at this point in the text and maybe much of this text seems to be a tension between the way that our world is being created at us or by us and and of course a tension between the like like obvious physical causal realities of the world and and and the mental participation of the world is is it wrong for me to say that the Sun touches objects and light bounces off of them in through my eye and that I have rods and cones and and that those trigger some sort of an image that my brain interacts is that wrong just because my mind creates my world that in order for those things to have meaning my mind has to put parts together or has to isolate things from one another that the world is totally dependent upon the shape of my heart does that contradict a version of reality where light bounces off of stuff into my eye hole it seems like it right it seems like those two things are in tension and and I think this is the struggle that we're having here and they almost do seem opposite but I but I think there's a middle way to not at all coin a phrase where in the two should be supportive of one another I remember as a kid having this thought that if it is weird that the right side of a bridge holds up the left side of a bridge shouldn't one sort of have to come first how can the right side be the thing that's holding up the thing that's holding it up but it clearly is it clearly is somehow the mind and up the mind is holding up objects and objects are holding up the mind well mr. Chandra branch a lot independent branch of the middle way school is that why you don't if the independent branch says that the stuff kind of has to be there first this is very Nagarjuna from what I could see I think the independent branch that you need something you don't know what it is you can't talk about what it is but there's a there is a little bit of the left side of the bridge there first but we can't really call it the left side of the bridge yet because we didn't lean the right side against it but it's kind of like a left side but you can't really call it the left side yet until you lean the right side against it but it's already a little bit there how could you call the right side by that logic I think that's a good middle way complaint to the the independent branch builder of bridges chapter 347 union I'm looking at the translators and I'm wondering how they are going to translate all those things we have the best translators in the universe they will do it with a joy and a good sense of humor at what a bunch of turkeys we are what more could we ask for so yeah how does this I don't know right I guess what we're really supposed to figure out is how does this tension affect the husband in the kitchen for God's sake should should be our job right about now in the day is he is he triggered by traffic what is he triggered by if he's not triggered by traffic traffic is name-informed no I guess it's included in the name and form and his angry body are triggered by name and form his angry consciousness or are they triggered by karma which is it well how could it be triggered by fresh karma fresh karma isn't even in the in the condition of being able to do anything right it's fresh it's not just potential right able to be ripened into something well then why do we call it the trigger I don't know I'm just asking questions I'm saying what better way to avoid a question than to answer a with a question why do we call it a trigger this is a good question this is a new set of links how many questions can we string together as answers to questions it was a question I saw in the chat and I thought that's a good question yeah I don't know I mean I'm getting more and more confused now on one hand on one hand I like to believe the will itself because the Lord created the wheel and I if I'm lazy I will just take it as take it wholesale you know but but somehow I think it's interesting to follow Master Vasubandhu's thinking to challenge all these things or not just him actually all the great masters of the past Ariana Garjuna for example he would challenge all this all this thinking and I think that's how we can go deeper so I always thought that I understand the will but today I got a new realization there are still a lot of things for me to learn more so I totally don't understand anything from what we discussed today I think I need to I need to listen back to the recording that we had in Kyoto yeah so thank you for opening my eyes yeah this idea of a what a like a causal stream whether it's yeah again dying and taking birth or whether it's a stream of these factors right fresh karma name and form consciousness it's yeah same what's the when we look at the guy in the kitchen right and what do we we we're like how do we break the link how do we we're trying to figure out how to break cycles and and the simple cycle is of course it's just yelling back at people who yell at us and I had this talk with my kid yesterday I forget what he was talking about people who are mean and we were we were talking about being mean to people who are mean and the way we become mean when we're mean to people who are mean and it's the most natural thing in the world and this is samsara this is the the wheel yeah this is the wheel of course I'm gonna get mad if you get mad of course I am and and I'm entitled to yell at you if you yell at me of course I am and and it will continue it and and and by every especially in America I'm sorry America um I apologize to you know but it there is a sort of like American right of justice that I have the right to be a jerk face if you are a jerk face and and even if you decide that's true that's fine that can be your right but it will keep the wheel going yeah that's that's fine and and in America you have the right to keep the wheel of pain going um it doesn't have to just be America but I happen to be here and you know people like to stand on top of things and pump their fists loudly here um and sometimes it's the right to be a jerk because other people are jerks and you're right you're right they were being jerks you are correct and and you do have the right to be a jerk back but it will keep the thing going it will certainly keep the thing going of course it will it is it is the power of the machine so you know as you like yeah I mean like these few days my mom was going through some treatment and then she had some she she had to take steroids and because of that her mental was like affected so on one hand I was thinking yeah that is sansara you know yeah I mean she cannot think straight due to the drug's effect but on the other hand I don't know whether I should correct her I should just laugh at the situation so me and my wife we were like okay what should we do so I think it's like like your American concept is like being of uh under influence of drug so I guess I guess the first thing is to stop the drug I get I think so I don't know yeah no you had a good solution you said should I just love her um maybe you don't have to just love her but right there's that kona word again uh it doesn't have to be only that yeah but that sounds right yeah that's not what is what is comforting what is comforting is that the mother which is affected by drug must have come from my seat so instead of doing anything whatsoever I just changed my seats but this is a like a passive pacifist kind of movement I don't anything I will just sit back and and look at my seats and hope things will change I don't know is this the right move or should I do anything you know I think it's wonderful I mean and it's same we do a weird thing where when when when someone has a physical ailment we almost think of it more as coming from their seeds but when it's in this organ like any other organ of the body like oh they were just born with a weird kidney or something but if it's their brain somehow we're less patient with them um as if our thoughts and emotions are not also seeds ripening us you know ripening us and ripening upon us ripening as us so yeah that's that's you're right I'm gonna take your answer yeah you can yeah act lovingly towards these people uh especially when they yell at us that's when it matters it's not when when you're loving to loving people that's great keep it up but it it's it's when you're loving to people who are having a hard time of course thank you thank you for having this interesting discussion I think we have eaten into the pitch reward news time yeah Juan doesn't look so loving when we cut into his time look at him I'm sorry I'm sorry I don't really please please just kidding just kidding thank you thank you Sugeng thank you Ben and thank you Upala and everybody else who's um contributing to this very interesting discussion uh Sugeng that was great uh thanks for exploring this topic with us all uh so that's it for today's uh mixed nuts discussions and we just have a little bit of peach true world news and then everybody's free to go to bed or be on your way with your weekend um thank you so much and we'll see you soon see you Monday take it away Mr. Juan okay thank you so

[Speaker 2]
much so yeah I was thinking uh like no really don't worry that if you take time a little bit it's okay I don't really mind because then I feel less guilty when I do it for others so no it's okay I'm just joking but uh okay so what do we have today big news I think to me is that Geshe Michael went to to celebrate you know the Christmas and I guess in a way his birthday too to Tucson with family and then he is back in the meantime some of us were taking care of the cat and some other people were taking care of the garden and other things so the trip was a big success and if everything goes well on Monday he will be back as Nick just mentioned we're going to have a class again on Monday Tuesday for those who live in Asia and then Geshe Michael is back also I think very very big news he finished the first uh version of the illumination of the true thought for those of you who are linking to the good night book club especially those who sign up for the daily mailing list he a few days ago Geshe Michael sent this wonderful wonderful email when he communicates actually during Christmas that happened to be also Jetsun Kappa day that happened to be also Hanukkah it was like a very powerful Christmas this last Christmas a lot of things came together and that day also Geshe Michael finished illumination of the true thought and soon during our December 31st New Year's Eve program that I would like to share a poster with you there we will have Geshe Michael with us talking a little we're going to have a special interview and we will be talking about this book illumination of the true thought and he's finishing on the translation so everyone is welcome really if you happen to be in Arizona or around really doesn't matter but if you want to come we're going to have a little lunch dinner time after the program you're welcome just let us know so we know how many people are coming live if you're planning to come live if not you can sign up on Zoom and you can watch this time it's going to be one hour just one hour we hope to make it exciting and fun and short and quick so sometimes it's more enjoyable not too long but let's see how it goes everyone is welcome if you're planning to attend live let me know and if not just registering soon if you can come it will be wonderful it's going to be very very cool okay what else this program that we are producing is being held by the worldview production without them many of the things that we are uh watching will not be possible so I just want to thank them very much it's like many many people involved some of the people like running the operations are like Francisco, Gina, Brian and other people Marina helps a lot I just want to thank them a lot and they are looking for help if you're wishing to be a volunteer wanting to be a volunteer they can use your help and if you say like no you know I am not very uh very tech person they also have designed some courses so you become a no no level person tech wise at first I was not at all but over the years I have had to learn and I can say that it's actually very helpful it's like a good tool to have so if you want to learn some of these skills this website that Brian Mendoza put together for us it's a great great way uh like to access these tutorials that are going to take you step by step on how to use many different programs okay what else can we say oh yeah very important yesterday our friend Dinara from DSEU contact me and she say uh DSEU is planning a very special event coming up soon as some of you may know every let's say one year and a half or every two years DSEU finishes their program and people graduate and then it's time to find new uh people who want to take their courses you know they have the MBA and then now they have two new programs one is called the young leadership program and the other one is the stratospheric leadership program and these three are based on like different stages on life for different people like the young one is for people uh 18 years to 23 years old who are about maybe to start college or something like that then it's the MBA people who really want to push their their career and then the stratospheric is for people who may already have a very successful career but they want to take it to the next level so what they are doing is like they are opening the registrations for new groups I think it's March when they are gonna have their registration open and finalized but this December 30th they're gonna have a session where you can hear more about what these programs are gonna be about and not only that but also they are gonna be broadcasting one of the classes that Geshe Michael gave during one of the DSEU programs so you can sign up for this it's a pre-recorded class with Geshe Michael but the rest is gonna be live some of the students are gonna be sharing how their experience has been with DSEU and me personally I can say that they look extremely happy every time I had a little chance to go and and Jose experience a class with DSEU like the group there the people the vibe they look very very happy and me personally I can say the classes the content is extremely extremely amazing really it's Geshe Michael teaching so you know I'm a big fan but the classes are really really good so anyways you can sign up and then you can watch the event if you are interested and maybe considering to be one of the DSEU students it's gonna be December 30th oh yeah just just to finish the date December 30th 7 a.m Arizona time and again at 3 p.m oh no 3 p.m is for Europe and 4 p.m for UA I don't know where UA is but basically it's you know Rimrock time 7 a.m Arizona time uh okay and then in April that's the next picture please yes uh Stanley Chen is planning some uh series on the innovation retreat visiting the desert in Dunhuang China I think that's gonna be a very very cool and interesting trip Geshe Michael is planning to go as far as I understand oh thank you Dinara UA is Ukraine so that's April so you still have time if you're planning to go try to contact them there is a WeChat QR code maybe just scan the code and see what happens from there maybe I should do that we'll see what happens maybe we can be there in Dunhuang China in April and another thing happening in April after that so US people can start like planning ahead is gonna be Diamond Mountain the new beginning of the five houses I've been trying to catch Tim Lowenhaupt to talk with him but he's very busy he's always flying anyways hopefully he can be here soon and then he will be telling us more about number one his trip to Taiwan that just finished and number two these new beginnings on the five houses updates but we will have probably to wait until Monday or Tuesday when um yeah the New Year's event is and another thing I just want to say is uh oh I honestly I have to apologize I forgot to add the picture here but I want to congratulate our friend Gielsa because she's about to start her retreat in Diamond Mountain I don't know if the tech table will be able to find the picture of the retreat in Diamond Mountain that Gielsa is about to start tomorrow it's here in the presentation but I made a mistake and I didn't add it to this particular day I don't know it's a yay thank you so much wonderful for saving me so just to congratulate them and to wish them very very successful retreat and very very happy new year we will be sending best vibes while you guys are in retreat over there okay and just to finish the segment for today um in the sense in the context of December and Geshe Michael's birthday some of the teachers all over the world had a celebration the celebration on the rejoicing festival and then one of our friends Yvonne helped to organize and to coordinate this and she's here with us to share a little bit of how did it go so if tech table could help me to spotlight Yvonne if she's around.

Yvonne, how are you?

[Speaker 3]
Muy bien, gracias.

[Speaker 2]
Good to see you. Still in Guatemala?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah yeah still here wonderful how's the weather? Perfect.

[Speaker 2]
Does Santa Claus live there too?

[Speaker 3]
um YouTube videos I don't know if you've been on YouTube lately but YouTube's been telling me anybody could be Santa.

[Speaker 2]
Wow that's interesting no I haven't seen that. Suspicious.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah it's a new Coca-Cola ad for Christmas they seem to know something.

[Speaker 2]
Interesting you know in Mexico it's more sometimes it's more like uh baby Jesus the one who brings the presents el niñito Jesus it's like little baby Jesus is the one who brings the presents uh I think Santa was very busy and say well Mexico is like difficult why don't you take over Mexico I don't know what's going on even Mexico City is more crazy because Mexico City is that the three wise men you know baby Jesus like no man I'm not I'm not getting there and Brian knows because Brian lives there it's the three wise men it's like more for adults I guess can be dangerous maybe I don't know.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah maybe let the kids take a few years off before they put them to work.

[Speaker 2]
So can you share with us a little bit of how did it go for the December 17th rejoicing festival what happened?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah it was it was amazingly beautiful amazingly beautiful um picture 48 hours two consecutive days one session leading to another always open an open Zoom room where people were going deep you know 48 hours is a long time each hour was a long time to open a really beautiful conversation where practitioners all over the world in their own languages bringing their own hearts celebrating the things that Geshe Michael taught us celebrating the the transformation that they've experienced in their lives because of the teachings that Geshe-la gives us and you know they're they're rejoicing in the goodness that they see other people doing they're rejoicing in their own goodness they're rejoicing in the beautiful things that they're seeing in their world each session has its own specific topic so we're opening up these beautiful topics like how we help someone change a bad habit or the people that we admire or you know the times that we were patient and we postponed the gratification for another time and you know you know 48 hours of really really juicy juicy stuff about about these things that Geshe-la gave us you know in this spirit of thank you so much Geshe Michael and so it created this amazingly beautiful energy the people who came and I saw you came a couple times they came to more than one session and and they stayed and they and they really benefited and something that I saw was people who were had a tendency to back off of being happy that they did good things got it a lot of people got you know we do good things and we should be happy that we do good things because that's how we make a beautiful world and this coming together of people from all over the world in celebration of our individual goodnesses of the goodnesses that we see in our world of our precious precious teacher it it was miraculous and I am gonna be so bold as to say I saw seeds for world peace being planted and so this is the rejoicing mudra and we did a lot of it and we rejoice in those amazing amazing seeds planted and there were a lot of requests for more rejoicing so hopefully there's more to come and if you didn't join us

[Speaker 2]
you can join us next time very cool and question is there a way for people let's say you had so many different events every hour was let's say a different topic different event uh some people were guiding or you know sharing taking the spot is there a way people could watch recordings or is there a way we could organize them by topic and then if if somebody who may not have had the chance to attend it's interested in one specific topic maybe this is something we should talk with Francisco and the world view team but or I don't know if it's already cooking but it will be cool

[Speaker 3]
if people can access it somehow listen it's a really nice idea the recordings are present and we've been thinking if we should share them if there would be any value to share them but it sounds like this is a request and asking you shall receive we'll do it maybe okay yeah because maybe

[Speaker 2]
some people is like I don't know you were telling me like oh Jacqueline Rana uh one hour of I think was a partners and then you told me soo gang she also run what was this again running

[Speaker 3]
soo gang's talk was about so right we looked at we looked at a lot of different topics and we looked at the different kinds of giving and soo gang's topic was giving the dharma and people were rejoicing in times that they gave the dharma which could also you can extrapolate these things these seeds and look at you know times that I taught anybody anything new it is seeds is seeds for is similar seeds so that's what soo gang's topic was and I saw I unfortunately it was in the middle of the night for me I didn't catch it but I saw that people were really enjoying

[Speaker 2]
themselves in his in his session too yeah and then you also have a lot of like singing and rejoicing I even saw a birthday cake there we have a short video I mean we collected some a few spots here and there and then I just put them together you think it's a good time to show people the video perfect let's go okay it's just a little taste of what it was I guess cool all right all right so yeah I think it will be interesting for those who may want to actually hear the content about what happened in the sessions to eventually have them available then who knows maybe eventually having a collection of rejoicing festivals or something let's cook the idea and see what happens but thank you thank you for organizing that and I hear that the idea came from teacher Sarani also no so we thank her for having had this idea and celebrate Geshe-la's birthday and not only that but also his life work really and being here

[Speaker 3]
in this world for us thank you so much yeah thank you please stay it's the brilliance in this in this creation is is mega the event itself but also the seeds planted in this container are are so wise they're so beautiful so wonderful if we rejoice about the event we collect 10%

[Speaker 2]
of the whole event cool awesome awesome so thank you so much Siobhan thank you so much uh I think you'll be in Guatemala for a few more weeks but then we'll be very excited to have you back over here very happy so and everyone thanks so much for tuning up we'll see again on Monday and as I say the plan is Geshe Michael is going to be teaching on Monday so have a great rest of your weekend enjoy Merry Christmas and Happy New Year try to come to the New Year event if you can thank you