Сугэн Ши — Книга 2: Колесо жизни (первый принцип и подразделения зависимости), занятие 69

[Speaker 1]
All right. Hi, everybody. Hi, Nick.

You ready? I am ready. Welcome to Schwenzhag Tower.

I hope everybody's doing great. And we've got class today, getting ready right now with Mr. Scott Reunion himself. So again, we're studying the Wheel of Life together.

Grateful to have you all here. And then after that, we have a treat. We had some last-minute schedule changes all over the place.

And Geshe Michael, as you know, is still recovering. I think he's doing great. But, you know, just we're giving him some time to rest.

So we're going to have a Q&A session after with Ben. So if you have tough questions, he's your guy. Thank you.

And Sugeng, whenever you're ready, take it away. All right. I didn't prepare the homework.

We only covered a few phrases the last time. So I think I'm going to start with the next verses from the book, if that is okay. Great.

All right. So maybe we can review a little bit of what we discussed previously, just to have some context. Yeah, that's always really helpful.

Thank you. Yeah. I reviewed it myself, but I think it's good to review again with everyone.

So we talk about it's meaningless. We were on the topic of about the collection of six consciousness. We are at the topic of six collections of consciousness and how are they involved with whether they are the ones crossing to the next link, link number four, which is name and form, and then how it is then related to link number five, which is the six doors of sense.

And then we are saying that if all the six consciousness from link number three, assuming they are link number three crossing over, creating link number four, name and form, and then link number four in turn triggers link number five with all the six doors of sense. If we have all the six consciousness, then there would be nobody ever be born with as blind or deaf. And so I guess this is this is us, right?

So we then continue to say that it is meaningless to talk about that even without saying about me. According to details of the specific karma, there are corresponding details of the consciousness, and that from those come details of the name and form. And it's only right that from that should come details of the six doors of sense.

So trying to make sense of this sentence, we are basically saying that only specific, only consciousness with enough maybe enough karma, enough seeds will cross over from link number three to link number four. And then correspondingly they will trigger link number five. To think more critically, since, well, I mean when we see people with complete six doors of sense, perhaps we can think that they are, they must have all the causes for the six consciousness to cross over together.

So I think we can, this is what we can conclude. And if the details of the result didn't come from details of the cause, then we couldn't even say that the former were a condition for the latter. So we continue our argument, right?

And also, so somebody, the other guy quoted Lord Buddha's phrase to Adam. And we say that also that phrase saying that the consciousness didn't enter the mother's womb is something we have to examine further. If someone were to ask, how do I interpret this meaning of if it didn't enter the womb, does it mean that it doesn't enter?

So we are, this is about, we are asking if someone were to come and say that if it didn't enter the womb, so basically we are questioning if that someone is saying that it doesn't enter the womb. I love the play of words here. Kind of fun, huh?

Yeah, everybody looks so serious. Nobody's smiling with me, except Venerable Kat. And yeah, oh Kazakova is smiling too.

How are you, Kazakova? I don't know. Slowly I will forget her real name, Marina.

Sorry. So it makes no sense to say that the consciousness which makes the crossing into the birth enters the mother soon. Wow.

I'm confused already. Is this us or is this the other party? Oh, we are saying if someone were to ask.

Anyway, and then because there's this last part of he, I put there, however, just a reminder for myself to check to make sure that it, there is something behind. And it's a reminder to myself that I need to take it out when it goes to the final translation. And what is reasonable is that consciousness which has been imprinted by fresh karma enters the mother's womb by way of the intermediate state.

Yeah, this is reasonable. So far so good. Yeah, thank you.

This is our review of last time, right? This is the phrase the, yeah. Yeah.

So I'm just trying, I'm just reviewing so that we have the context and we can continue. Due to the connection of those meaning the consciousness being imprinted the consciousness being imprinted upon the fresh karma entering the mother's womb. If the blood and cement then come together name and form will then ripen.

And where do we get the idea of calling it a fetus?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So we are basically saying that the fetus itself must have come from the connection of those. Instead of just the blood and cement come together. Which is still logical, right?

And that's where we stop actually. So this is the new this is a new sentence that the new, yeah, the new sentence. All right.

So shall we continue? Yeah. All right, let's continue.

Thank you. So let me read and then I need the team to help me decipher and translate. But Tim is not here today, right?

It's okay. People think that I'm Tim all the time. I know.

[Speaker 3]
And don't worry, Sugeng, I'm here. I'm just lurking in the background.

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm being, I'm trying to be very careful to say the terms correctly.

Okay. Let's continue. There we go.

Oh yeah, Venerable Pala is smiling. He's laughing at me. Geshe Michael left us a lot of notes.

So that's nice. That's nice. I love the notes.

I love the notes. Yeah. It's helpful.

All right. Okay. Okay.

However. However the the the the if if the meaning here I believe he's saying if the meaning here is that you don't take birth in the mother's womb. You don't take birth in the mother's womb.

Oh yeah. The meaning here that you don't take birth in the mother's womb. Then at that time they'd say at that time the the the the start of the name and form.

Yeah, I think it's kind of like how they come about. The name and form comes about. Yeah.

Just it seems like it's saying it just starts or it just it is. It's just the birth of name and form. It's just the birth of name and form.

And because of that birth is incorrect. You can't say that birth then it would be wrong to say that birth occurs due to that condition. That trigger I think is that trigger.

Yeah, I think so. Oh, cool. However, if the meaning here is that you don't take birth in the mother's womb at that time is just the birth of name and form.

And because of that, then it would be wrong to say that birth occurs due to that trigger. Oh, cool. Nice English.

Just a trigger. I would suggest is that because this is basically not true, then I would say at that time, it would be just the birth of name and form. It would be right.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
The birth of form. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

That sounds nice too, right? Nearly, just nearly. Yeah.

Okay. What trigger is it wrong to say? Yeah.

I think we are talking about either the connection or the blood and cement coming together. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Just like earlier, we had this question about do sense objects trigger sense awareness or does name and form trigger sense awareness since name and form is the link before the sense awareness even though we would normally say objects trigger sense powers, trigger sense awareness. Now we're saying do blood and semen coming together in the womb trigger entering of the womb or is it consciousness that triggers name and form?

Is the name and form of somebody in the womb triggered by consciousness or is it triggered by the coming together of physical stuff, blood and semen for example? Is that the debate we're having? I think so.

I think you sort of summarized the debate here, the discussion here. Okay. It's helpful for you.

Okay, good. I'm just banking on not being the only one lost. No, you are not lost.

I think you summarized pretty well. Thank you. Only one not lost.

You are the only one not lost.

[Speaker 3]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
All right. Venerable Khading, would you give us the honor of reading this next sentence, please?

[Speaker 3]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. Thank you. Nice reading.

But wait, there's more. Yeah, something like that. Daily.

Yeah, from that. Also more than that kind of. Yeah.

There is more than that. There's even more. There's even more.

Something like that, man. We'll see. This seems like a strange formation.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But where's the end from? I don't see the end, right? It could not be an interrogative particle.

Yes, it can. Maybe it's like, is that it? Or something like that.

Yeah, that's great. Or does something come from that? That's great.

I think that's got to be right. It's probably something more like that. There is something.

No, no, no, no. Yeah, it's like, or is it, or is there more to it than that? Yeah.

Say again? Or is there more to it than that? Or is there more to it than that?

Is that the interrogative particle for a word ending in Definitely don't know off the top of my head.

[Speaker 3]
Could this be ngam then?

[Speaker 1]
Should this be ngam? If I were to look at this right now, I don't know. Should this be?

No, I think it means there's another meaning for that word than just being like or. Oh, another meaning, okay. I see.

I think it's going to be an interactive part of it, but let's see what, let's see what comes next. Okay. We would have to have a misspelling indicator then.

Oh, you want me to put indicator? Okay. It only comes after a word that ends in na.

Not na. Na, right. So you want me to put something here?

Well, provisionally. Yeah. Yeah.

Maybe. We don't know. Okay.

Is it ngam? Is that what you mean?

[Speaker 3]
I'm sorry, what was the question?

[Speaker 1]
Do we know what it should be after ngam? It should be ngam. Okay, right.

Got it. Or is there more to it than that? Can I put a question mark here and then yeah.

Ngas, you want to dump a sip on me? Mashi bardu. This is.

It's something like consciousness not being pacified. Not being what? Don't write down what I'm saying.

Please. Sorry. No, no, no.

I'm flattered. Yeah. I mean, I wonder if this is before you've passed from the bardo.

I guess it would say bardo, but maybe let's see. Let's build from some more of the sentence maybe. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't. Right.

It is appropriate. Uh. Jordan way.

Uh. Oh, good. Right.

Good. Crossing the. So for consciousness to cross into a new birth.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

This is something about like we're talking about whether or not consciousness or what happens to it at death, I guess, or the as far as saying how consciousness doesn't pass away, name and form trigger the trigger of name and form. Sorry, guys. I got interrupted by something, by a sick child.

I was saying something about as far as consciousness not passing away, well, then name and form, the trigger of name and form, tempeh. What is this tempeh doing here? Yeah, I mean, directly taught, right?

Directly taught? Yeah, something. No?

What else is tempeh going to be demonstrated? Does this ngopo mean directly here? Typically?

Substantially? Really? Substantially?

Substantially. Yeah, I thought it was, hmm. Okay.

Yeah, you could say taught as a substantial trigger for name and form. I think it's something more like that. The foundation of the substantial context.

Indicates. Reveals, explains. I think it's the name and form are providing some sort of substantial foundation upon which you can say that consciousness is crossing into the new life or whatever.

Like, is it possible that this B-S-T-A-N is not taught at all, or explained, but it's more like the tempeh that we see in the Yelme text?

[Speaker 3]
Like, indicate or illustrates or demonstrates.

[Speaker 1]
Demonstrates. But doesn't it mean like the foundational thing also, or is that a difference? Hmm.

I don't know. Okay, isn't this the spelling that we used in the mind-only text? There's like the, when we're talking about the kunshi, there's the thing that things rest upon.

And then there's the thing which rests upon the things. And isn't this the spelling that means it's the thing that is rested on the foundation? Or is that a different spelling?

That would be a different spelling. Okay. Is that with an E or something?

[Speaker 3]
It's probably a B or.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, okay. Well, this is B-R, maybe. Okay.

Yeah, I think B-R. Okay. So, yeah, this is.

Yeah, it seems like, is this, yeah, demonstrating then a substantial trigger for name and form? Which, again, like, yeah, nopo meaning, yeah, I guess meaning substantial in the sense of, I don't know, a real trigger or something substantial is pushing it a little bit, but that would be convenient. It doesn't say ze, but when we're talking.

I'm sorry. I think the nopo is linked to the tempa, not to the ken. Oh, okay.

Right, right. Demonstrated as substantial. Substantially demonstrates.

Thanks. No text. So the condition of name and form, mingang suki ken, ki is doing something.

And nopo tempe, that's also doing something. Yeah. Mashiwar, as long as you haven't died, I guess.

As long as you haven't what? Died. Up until the time of death.

Like for as long as you have not yet died, then consciousness, ni is probably is, I guess. Consciousness is.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, as mingang, as ming tang suk, consciousness as ming tang suk.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Consciousness is, yeah, as name and form. Yeah.

I don't know that. Yeah. I don't know.

Oh, yeah, shows itself as a, yeah, as a nopo. I mean, this may just be nopo as in bhava, as a substantial thing. It shows itself as a thing.

Yeah. That was kind of my first thought about it. Yeah.

Triggered by. Yeah. Triggered by name and form.

Are we all not seeing the screen right now? No, we're seeing the screen. Oh.

Aha. There it is. Oh, okay.

Whoa. There's no zoom upgrade. Okay.

Interesting. And then because of that, hey. Yeah.

It is appropriate for consciousness to. Cross into another life. Yeah.

Ah. As far as how does not pass away. Well, it shows itself as a functional thing that relies upon the trigger of name and form.

And therefore, we can say it crosses into another life. And repeat again, Nick, as long as. As far as far as how it is that consciousness does not pass away.

Well, it relies. I mean, it shows itself as. A thing.

That is triggered by name and form. I mean, this has to be massaged. And thus we can say that consciousness crosses into another life.

And so we can say, I don't know if that makes total sense, but. That's what we came up with so far. Okay.

Yeah. And it's a problem, right? We still have this problem where we're talking about.

At the moment, link for somehow triggering link three. Right. Which is which is the way we think of things.

I mean, that is sort of the normal thought is that stuff comes together. And because of that stuff coming together, consciousness is triggered. Right.

But that's not the presentation. In the 12 links. And by the way, if you want to catch all the words.

Kelsey just pointed out that we need to put the word thing in there. Somehow we have to catch. So it shows itself as a thing or something.

Or just as something triggered by name and form. Yes. Something.

Where is the thing? Okay. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. Well, okay.

That's sufficient to mess as we can make out of that temporarily. Yeah. It looks pretty cool.

Thank you. Impressively provisional. Understandable.

We got the words mostly right. It's just now we got to figure out what the heck it means. Notes.

Wouldn't we consider that DG tar would be then. How would it be? How would it be suitable to say that consciousness crosses into another life?

Yeah, totally. Totally. It's funny that we just did all that struggling.

I don't know about you guys, but I didn't look once. Oh, yeah. Did he?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's amazing.

Would it be? It does give me some comfort, though, that he whenever he makes this much notes, it's a hard sentence. Oh, so it's.

And so, okay. And by the way, the nom. I don't know, but he didn't seem to treat it, but he just treated that first part of the sentence as and if from that.

And I don't. He then he says. Until one died, my she wanted to do number seven.

So sometimes something we've learned from Joshua Michael a few times, I think, and somebody's set me straight if I'm wrong, but sometimes when they use the negative particle, like, you know, does not pass away. Is how we translated it. Guess you said until someone dies.

Oh, okay. Perhaps. And I believe he's taught us this.

Sometimes the negative particle can mean up until that point. And doesn't doesn't pardon these until. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

With the party. Yeah. And.

And we were. Yeah. And I think he's not treating it as much she was.

My she wanted to. It's probably my, she. Oh, my, she.

Until you die. It means until you die. Totally.

It's just phrased as, as long as you haven't died. Right. That's the same, I suppose.

It's. Yeah. Yeah, it's fine.

I don't know that I would say consciousness didn't die. We said if consciousness. It was more like if consciousness does not pass away, which is a little different.

I would say if one hasn't died, as long as one hasn't died, consciousness shows itself as something. Because I don't think consciousness doesn't die. Yeah, one has not died.

But consciousness shows itself as something triggered by name and form. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so that how could it be? Yeah.

Okay. So. Right.

So then how could it be suitable? And you might want to say right after name and form there to gang or before how so then how, um, might even be a new sentence, uh, period. So then how, um, because if consciousness is showing itself independence upon being triggered by stuff, then when that stuff dies, how could we say that consciousness is going to be moving into a new body?

Because the stuff that's triggering it is dead. But you don't need to write all that.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
That's not what it says, though. Oh, like, you don't think that's all those links. All it said was, until death.

All right. So what's the problem? It's alive.

Right. But, but what's, what's the trouble? Why?

Why is it a problem that, um, sorry, oh, no, I was just, why is it a problem, uh, to say that consciousness crosses into a new life? You know, why does the, why does saying that consciousness shows itself as a thing triggered by name and form, why does saying that make it a problem to say that consciousness would cross into a new life? And that's just my guess at the moment, is because if you say that it's triggered by material stuff, uh, then when that, when one dies, the material stuff that would be acting as a trigger is no longer available.

And so how could you say that consciousness crosses into a new life if, uh, the trigger has died? It triggers to be around as long as the thing it triggers is? Yeah.

Yeah, it does. That is the nature of causation. A thing is caused if, yeah, yeah, it's true.

The, uh, uh, result can only exist in so much as it's sustained by its cause, I think. Is that, is that right? So trees don't exist?

Why would you say the trees don't exist? Because the seed goes away. Uh, the seed does not go away.

The seed continues to transform into sprout and then tree and then more seed in so much as, uh, sunlight and soil and water and all of the causes and conditions necessary to sustain that thing are present. And if they are removed, then that thing that is developing will die. So the seed, which triggered this whole, um, mechanistic process, um, it isn't around anymore.

I think when there's soil and sunlight and water and it is, it is, it is the thing that was the seed is still around, but it's not called a seed anymore. Really? I've never, um, I wouldn't consent to the word really, but, um, no, I've just never heard that before.

Okay. This is brand news to me. Okay.

But you know, it's good to be 65 ancient years old and learn something new. Yeah. So I'm just, I don't know.

I'm trying my best to understand what they could be saying and boy, am I open to alternate theories. Um, but it seems to me that we're talking about whether or not consciousness would depend on physicality, whether or not consciousness is rest, consciousness is resting upon physical causes like, uh, blood and semen. Um, and the blood and semen here are standing for name and form is, I don't know.

Again, I'm, I'm super open to other theories, but, uh, if we forward ahead, it may just be that clarity will come. Yeah. I forgot your otter just said it was leaving.

Just letting you know. Say again? Uh oh.

No, no, I'm good. I'm enjoying the Prasangika negotiations a while earlier. Thank you for showing it to me, Ben and Utpala.

I like the play of logics here. And although I tend to gear towards one of you, but I think it's a very healthy discussion. So thank you very much.

All right. Yeah, I'm struggling. I'm happily struggling.

Okay. Let's, I heard Toto's voice just now. Would you mind giving us the honor to read?

Thank you. Thank you. Nice.

Can I suggest that we read the English first? The proverbs first? Where's the fun in that?

I think it's great. I think I like that approach. Suddenly I think maybe it's more intelligent to read and then try to decipher.

But I mean, there is another problem. You know, we will be, Geshe Michael always said that all those are just notes and might not be accurate. And our mind might be shifted towards that and forget about how to really read the original language.

But anyway. I think it's great. Yeah.

Okay. So let me read. What this sutra is saying is that if the name and form consisting of the five heaps is manifested by the condition of consciousness, then how could the consciousness, which is doing the crossing into new life, act as a condition for the name and form, which were occurring simultaneous to it, since it is their causal condition.

Oh, looks like this is confirming what Ben was saying. Just now. It seems like it.

Yeah. Wow. That had not occurred to me.

Could you explain how this proves I'm right? Because I didn't get there yet. Help me.

I love to be told I'm right, but I'm not there. Occurring simultaneous to it. There it is.

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. And name and form consisting of the five heaps means if you depend on name and form, my goodness, which depends on which?

Name and form is manifested by the condition of consciousness, then how could the consciousness, which is doing the crossing, act as a condition? Is this because consciousness is one of the five heaps? Oh, no.

Okay. I mean, all those are good questions. Shall we go to the original language?

Let's read it. Yeah. Let's make a stab.

Yeah. What does it try saying? That's pretty straightforward.

Interesting. He used the word manifested to translate the verb tempah, here. Ah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right.

And that could help us a clue as to what maybe we should have done before. I mean, that's not...

[Speaker 3]
Well, we did.

[Speaker 1]
We said shows.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Which is not so far. No, pretty good. Pretty close.

Mm-hmm. So, by that trigger, which is consciousness, the five heaps, name and form, yeah, are shown, or something? Manifested.

Are manifested. And because of that... Oh.

Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, right.

[Speaker 1]
We said that. We said that. Okay.

Yeah. And because of that, yeah, consciousness crosses into a new life. If it's like that, arising at the same time, yeah.

If it is like that. Well, and he said, how could it be? Yeah.

How could it be wrong? How could it be appropriate? Mm-hmm.

How could that be appropriate? How could that be reasonable if it is arising at the same time as the name and form, which are its trigger? Oops.

That's the opposite of what Ben said. Oh, whoops. Yeah.

Well, I mean, yeah, but we sort of... Yeah, but look at him. I wouldn't trust him either.

If it's like that, how could it be appropriate? It is like that. How could that be appropriate to say that?

Oh, how could it be... Yeah. Yeah.

How could it be appropriate to say the above thing still, right? To say that... It arises.

It arises. Yeah. Yeah, so I think we're missing something here.

It's not... I think we should follow Geshe Michael's notes more closely about the meaning. Where we're splitting the meaning is...

He's taking the... Meaning the consciousness which crosses into a new life. Oh, great.

And how could that... He's taking that as part of the second sentence. How could that be the condition, the...

Let's see. Be the kin for human form which are happening at the same time. Great.

So... Great. So our first sentence will change.

Yeah. Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
And I think he did that because there are just so many clauses there in the Tibetan. And then we would say it the way he just said.

[Speaker 1]
Not that that's how it's really presented there. Mm-hmm. But it's a pretty specific meaning, isn't it?

I mean, it's different than what we couldn't... I couldn't construe that meaning from the way we had it written. I don't think it says in therefore consciousness.

[Speaker 3]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
No? Okay. Yeah, let's take that out.

[Speaker 3]
And therefore there's no... Take out the whole... Oh, okay.

[Speaker 1]
The trigger of consciousness, like parenthetically, the one that crosses into a new life. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

When it crosses to a new life. That's... No, no, no.

I'm just saying. Oh. That I think that phrase...

Mm-hmm. Is talking about the first... The first...

Yeah, the first moment of consciousness. No, the consciousness we're talking about... Oh.

Is the one that's... The trigger, right? Okay, yeah.

Oh, nevermind. No. So, something like maybe Sugeng.

Yes. If we go up to what the sutra is saying is that... And let's put a comma there, and give ourselves a tiny bit of distance.

Then maybe... Since name and form, which is the five heaps... Name and form, that is the five heaps or something?

Or maybe you could do a Geshe Mikelian M-dash or something. Name and form dash the five heaps dash, right? Yeah, it's kind of like...

Yeah, that does appear to be what it's... Are triggered by... Or, sorry, show themselves?

Or what was the other option, Nick? Manifest. Manifest, you know...

Either condition of consciousness in that case. Manifest, yeah, comma triggered by consciousness. Or that, yeah.

Yeah. Or triggered... Or manifested, yeah.

Yeah, you have to say both. Yeah. Oh, both, okay.

Yeah, because we're trying to get both words in there. Okay. In your final translation.

Yeah, you could change the slash to a comma. Oh, okay. Yeah, triggered by consciousness.

Yeah. Since name and form, the five heaps, are manifest... You could say, instead of are manifest, you could say manifest, right?

Oh, manifest, okay. Triggered by consciousness. Oh, cool.

Then, how could it be appropriate to say?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, then how could it be appropriate to say?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the consciousness that crosses into the next life. Yes, that the consciousness that crosses into the next life. Perfect.

That could trigger name and form. Wait, let him get that part.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Totally, totally. That the consciousness that crosses into the next life. Yeah.

The consciousness that... Right. To say that consciousness.

That the consciousness. Say that the consciousness that crosses into the... That the.

Say that the. Sorry. You got it.

Good. Say that the consciousness that crosses into the next life. Good.

Could trigger... Is it trigger or be triggered by? Could trigger the name and form.

Could trigger name and form. Could trigger the name and form. Yeah, could trigger the name and form.

Yeah, which arise at the same time as it. Yeah, there you go. As it, yeah, it's important.

As it, yeah, just as it does, that's fine. Yeah, as it does is fine. Nice.

Oh, God.

[Speaker 3]
Excuse me, where do we see this sense?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, it's the S in tempeh. Oh, right, right. Oh.

That's the reason. The genitive. Could it be appropriate, by the way, Sugeng?

Or not genitive, I'm sorry. How could it be appropriate? How could it be appropriate?

Thank you. Crosses into the next life.

[Speaker 3]
Name and form. Define.

[Speaker 1]
Manifest. Triggered by consciousness. Okay, how could it be appropriate?

Which one is that? How could it be appropriate? The dejitar?

The dejitar.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, the dejitar. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, durung, oh, okay. I see. Yeah, exactly.

How could it be? How could it be? Oh, cool, thank you.

But I think that if it's the case that this is, if the, the, I'm sorry, tejitar, tej, dot, dot, dot, durung. Uh-huh. Is like, then how could it be?

Then I don't think we would say since. I think we would say if. If.

Yeah. If were. If, you know.

Yeah. But I, you know. Yeah, we're manifest.

Put the word word before manifest that would make it more. Word to manifest. Yeah, great.

Oh, yeah. How could it be? Oh, yeah.

Isn't correct there yet now, but.

[Speaker 3]
No, that's fine. If name and form were to manifest trigger.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay.

Okay. That's good. That's good.

Yeah. That's good. Beautiful English.

Cool. Cool. Shall we continue?

[Speaker 3]
Can we do it?

[Speaker 1]
It's small. Yeah. We got this.

Let's try. 30 minutes for one 30 minutes for the next. We got this.

Okay. Let's move on. Oh, this is short.

Do she may can you know, say my young. And suppose is in the condition. Do she may a later time condition is.

Oh yeah, next life. Is it that the condition is. It's like.

Yeah, but it doesn't say next life. For the, for the next time or something like that. Yeah.

No, no, no, no. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got you.

Okay. Or it could just be sometime afterwards. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I think it's better to leave it more ambiguous. Sometime being one word. Oh, sorry.

No, no, it's fine. Thank you. Something.

I, I, yeah, I wonder if you can include. Oh, sorry. You wonder what.

Oh, I wonder. Oh, I'm wondering. No, no, no, no, I personally.

I've been. Vasu bondage doesn't wonder. But I wonder if it might even be appropriate to include the words name and form that are not at all present in this sentence.

Oh, no, unfortunately, that's not. No, it would be. um uh yes for suppose you say that it's the condition for yeah form right yeah for name and form at some time in the future sometime afterwards okay then it would be two words uh two words now oh which two oh sometime at some time yeah right i see oh okay yeah yeah cool is there anything else we can say about this sentence to avoid the next one no but let's look young young young uh well and um sort of like and something you know anyway however maybe say it or don't know uh should we um help us uh sugang that's okay now you have to help us make sense of this in our lives okay i think we've successfully stalled long enough to come to discussion appreciate that effort okay all right let's uh quickly go through a little bit of what we have just discussed today uh so we are saying that um if the meaning here is that you don't take birth in the mother's womb at that time it would be just the birth of name and form oh wow okay and because of that then it would be wrong to say that birth occurs due to that trigger okay name and form okay and if from that what is that is from can i say the argument that what is this that here yeah yeah i'm trying to figure it out let's see there we go that's good oh so now i'm wondering or is it even i think it's more like if that is if that were the case type of thing if that were the case but one it's a case i think so don't overthink it you have to help people even if you don't understand what it means you have to share whatever this general stream of thought has led you to contemplate in your life people no longer with the abstraction okay all right okay let's continue if that were the case as long as one has not died consciousness shows itself as a thing triggered by the name and form okay okay relevant to my life about this tell me nick yes i would have to say that it's often very difficult for me to find things in these types of presentations that are directly relevant to practicality practical aspects of my day-to-day life however something i find interesting is questioning what they're doing now and questioning whether or not something which causes something else can occur at the same time because i think that's really uh interesting thing to to examine like um if right now i have a cold right it's terrible it's awful uh and it can barely stand listening to you i don't blame you actually it's not so bad i i've gotten it way where this isn't that bad who knows if it's covet i see lots of people wearing masks and i don't know it's just a thing but just have to assume it is yeah so uh my daughter coughed in my face right she's got she's got the cold and it was uh so did that and then i got sick that same night you know so uh this is just a really small example but it's a it's a discussion it's a debate that we have in my house like is that causing me to get sick is that the cause because i got sick right away i'm like no i couldn't have manifested that quickly yeah i think this is this is very similar to my family's belief you know in the sense that my mom or rather my parents used to tell us the children don't play in the rain because you will catch a cold and yeah true enough i sort of believed to that and every time i was caught in the rain i will catch a cold but i saw many people who used to play in the rain and they were okay so i tried myself not to believe that and played in the rain and i didn't catch a cold so how do we explain the relation among both you know even until today when my mom got into the rain without umbrella anything she would then fall sick so how do we well to me it's obvious right the rain doesn't cause the cold because the moment i changed my mind not to believe on that i didn't fall sick the doctors would agree with you as well by the way they would say germs cause the germ right but how but does the rain trick yeah it's hard because also even nagarjuna right from whom we you know have most of our understanding of emptiness uh says that we also have to agree with farmers that watermelon seeds yield watermelons and not kumquats so somehow we have to find this balance that i find very challenging to balance between an understanding that uh watermelons lead to watermelon seeds which lead to more watermelons which lead to more watermelon seeds and to think of a thing as a watermelon or a watermelon seed is dependent on my mind and in fact right even this discussion we were having with paula earlier about the seed becoming a sprout becoming a tree the watermelon seed becomes a watermelon sprout becomes a watermelon plant becomes a watermelon when do we say in that journey this is a seed and this is a sprout and this is a melon i i planted watermelons in um in arizona it's very hard to know when a watermelon is ripe very difficult it's sealed you can try to smell it but it's sealed you bang on it you try to see is it hollow you know who knows when a watermelon is ripe before you do are the javelinas the wild pigs know when the watermelon is ripe and they will eat it before you do um on the day that it turns right so how do i only the mind differentiates when it's a seed or a sprout the day it becomes a sprout instead of a seed the day becomes a tree or a bush a vine instead of a sprout the day it becomes a an edible melon as opposed to a premature melon uh that line has to be drawn by a mind and so there is no watermelon without your mind drawing that line and so somehow these both of these models are true uh watermelons only exist in dependence upon your mind and uh only watermelon seeds cause watermelons and love makes love and a watermelon has to come from that and cause and affect work faithfully perfectly and it depends on your mind that's hard that's hard it's hard to maintain that i go hard on it i see i am a lot about how we have to we also can't ignore the stapler or the watermelon seed in this case uh because it's important like it's important to stay to keep your immune system healthy and eat good foods and to take care of other people's health and i like to think of it personally as as like because i take care of other people's health then i have planted the seeds in my mind to have the fortune to be able to buy good food and to know about it and to care and you know because i had some good seeds in my mind then i i have enough whatever good people in my life teaching me that you should eat these things so that you're not sick all the time or whatever can i can i go extreme in this so we are talking about cause and effect we are talking about the law of seeds right and then if we talk about the ideas from ariana gaju everything is coming from our seeds um if the law of seeds is also coming from our own seeds can i plant the seeds so that the lofts will work differently you know you know i mean so can i plant the seeds so one day maybe watermelon fruit does not have to come from watermelon seeds is that i mean logically it should be possible right if the pen if the pen is coming from our pen seeds and the dog and the tutor is coming from the dog's chew toy seeds and then we said that if we were to change the seeds into something else we will not we will not be seeing the pen if we are good we will see something better if we are bad we will see a chew toy so there's a paradox in there yeah so if i interest there's an interesting paradox in there where you uh where it's like if if the seeds have to function that way then since they function that way then you can plant to see that they don't function that way then they wouldn't function that way yeah so then in which case you couldn't plant that seed in which case you couldn't plant that right so can you plant the seed to see things as if you wanted to plant the seed to see things as being not empty you could only do that in dependence upon the fact that they are yeah exactly which means you can't and are you saying that the law of seeds is self-standing and substantial on its own oh it's so it's such a good question and it's so important to not confuse self-existent with always true they don't mean the same thing something can be always true independence upon the shape of our minds like everything depends on the shape of our minds and everything always depends on the shape of our minds and that is only true in so much as we draw a conceptual we are forced to see a conceptual division between things outside of us and our minds you see just to say there's things out there and there's our minds and that those are different things and one depends on the other those are like arbitrary made up useful distinctions they're not real we need them we use them and we're forced to see this separation between self and other but it's it is it is just an idea and that's why it's not self-existent because it's dependent upon name and label not because it's not always true because it is always true but it depends on the shape of your mind and always will so if i were to change the shape of my mind then what i'm seeing will also change it will yes but you can't change the shape of your mind that will force yourself uh to you can't change the shape of your mind to make the world such that it's not dependent on the shape of your mind that's not not possible that means that means i have the ability to change the shape of my mind to see the world change because if at the end of the day the shape of the world will always depend on the shape of my mind yeah what were you gonna say yeah i was i was trying to say um i have an interesting metaphor um how can a game player access the core code you know we are the game player we uh we abide to the law of karma but it's the law of karma is empty so how do we access the the coding you know and we change the coding i think it's by seeing emptiness directly but see emptiness directly we still have to plant the seeds we have to it's another paradox right yeah you gotta play the game to beat the game we gotta play the game to see inside you could self-existently try to say that anything is possible but if absolutely anything is possible then it should be possible for something to not be possible that's so so it can't be right it's not it's i don't i don't think i believe in paradox i think usually paradox is what we call it when we're wrong if there are two things that cannot coexist yeah they they don't i agree with you it's like um the idea of uh you know mathematic idea of infinitely small you know um the the size of the the thickness of a surface or um you know um you know how much space does your uh does your uh boundary um the physical boundary occupy you know things like that right yeah yeah right yeah and it goes there a lot actually which is really interesting yeah right exactly there's a cute one i'm just thinking this because i have the four of us on the screen here which is great there's this place in uh america we have to stop the four corners where the four states meet and then uh if you say the one are are these four boxes touching because if they're touching if the one on the upper left and the one on the bottom right are touching then the one on the bottom left and the one on the top right can't be touching because the other two will be in the way you see uh so none of them can be touching where they're all touching and yet conceptually they're all touching i think uh there's something else i want to say about touching is like doesn't touching means there's nothing between if there's nothing between how can there be such a thing called touch oh that's nice touches the thing that goes between them that's nice interesting so touch is a negative thing but it functions so it's just it's another another you know thing that you know i've been absence of boundary i mean i think at the end of the day it's about um how we define all these things in our language you know i mean maybe in certain i like you say touching means there is nothing in between so but i don't know i mean we need to well conceptually we can discuss but our discussion will also be limited by the by the what do you call it the language and yeah boundaries leave the discussion right which we should leave right you're always supposed to you know we all make this oath to promise to leave the discussion saying at the end that's why love always creates more love that's that's the reason why you can't somehow undermine it that's the reason why uh it is necessarily the case that kindness works and continues to work and you can't break it so don't worry keep being kind yeah let's uh with kindness let's end this discussion yes speaking of kindness we can't wait to share the global news with us thank you thank you team for the great discussion and of course thank you team for lurking behind it's always always a pleasure lurking uh yeah and thanks everybody for joining we had a really nice turnout today or we have and uh stick around for 15 minutes of world news with hasso and then we have q a session with ben kramer so we can continue right along with spain or any other that you'd like to so thank you ben for for doing that and um enjoy enjoy don't do take the chance to to have a q a with ben you can ask him anything and he'll give you great insightful answers

[Speaker 2]
okay take it away juan good to see you thank you guys for your amazing discussion now i almost feel guilty to take the the time from you because i was really really interested about these concepts i think it's wonderful to give ourselves time to be here like every week i do appreciate that and i see how the numbers on this program keep going up and up and i keep encouraging people to either invite your friends if you enjoy this too much or invite people that you don't like if you find this boring but anyways invite people because it's so wonderful like these kind of things uh hearing you guys talking um i'll say among each other affects me in a very beautiful way so thank you but of course here i am and i have to report the news which i do also very gladly uh what is today today is monday november 11th and in just three more days we're gonna be starting the wonderful ysi program jata yoga number four chapter four very excited um we hear last week that the morning classes are gonna happen at the sedona college in sedona and the evening classes are gonna happen at the poco diablo resort it's a very nice hotel in the area with a big conference room uh some other organizations have been renting this space and the events there usually go very very well so it's like a new seems to me um i'll say milestone for ysi that now the the attendance are so many that a bigger venue is needed so congratulations and we are very excited to hear the content about it if you haven't signed up yet either online or live this may be one of your last chances you can follow the qr code for it okay and then after that after november we are aiming for kyoto the as i like to say the world view organization summit happening because many different organizations and many different events are taking place there starting with of course steps on the path the grand finale of these 14 years of teaching is gonna be there wonderful from the first to the seventh and just after that perema together with ysi are organizing this yoga retreat with great great teachers um very experienced teachers they are providing a platform for us to digest or put into practice everything that we learned also in the retreat and um with them along the year so you can see how even the title is an inner exploration retreat yes this is the poster also in chinese for people who may be interested or yeah i think it's chinese well japanese is also the same characters i didn't know that but many of the characters are the same although the pronunciation is different but the characters is characters are silent something happened my zoom uh how's it kicking me out but i wanted to show you the next picture which is the the the the next one please that's part of the prema event but the next one is the other event happening at the same time together with steps on the path the skaa reunion on the this 2024 and if you have ever attended the sedona college you are somehow a candidate to attend to this kind of events in the next picture we can see the cure codes and of course you can talk with mr sugan with xing tian uh how to be part of it but the content and the conference seminars are happening in the same hotel so it's like a congregation of many things and as a special surprise or like a how's a cherry on the top of the cake uh on december the seventh mental seed along with other organizers there in japan are organizing this wonderful talk with mari kondo which happens to be a very famous um how call it like a show in netflix mostly on how to type your life using intuition and energy together with geshe michael teaching about how you can type your life but the pen and seeds principle they're gonna be co-hosting a very wonderful conference soon we will be sharing the qr code to sign up for this either live or or online but letting you know it's happening okay and today just before we move to the next q a yeah remind you that we are planning something for december 31 and we want to invite kat with us today because she has a very cool project first we're gonna show you a cool video and then a quick talk with her so if tech table could help me with uh the video we prepared today and share with the volume please thank you so much hope you

[Speaker 3]
enjoy three years ago michael started sky harvest a non-profit for ecological restoration land use practices are very controversial in arizona and especially water usage is very controversial and he said we cannot make enemies with our neighbors we have to help them be better in their business so that's what's fair harvest is doing he assigned us to diamond mountain for a reforestation town of buoy for food and water security local ranchers to restore grasslands damaged by cattle grazing the quarry i don't know how we're going to help the quarry the fort for buoy and the net orchards so we have plans for all those land stakeholders to help them improve their businesses so so well welcome to the buoy community center and project oasis headquarters thanks for coming this was gifted to sky harvest by the palmas family when she passed away and there's over a half an acre here and we have a pole barn here inside with an adobe floor that diamond mountain students put together in 2005 2006 this is going to be a community center for the town of buoy sky harvest will offer ecological restoration workshops buoy is very under resourced 28 percent of the people who live here are below poverty level there's a population of 312 people living in 100 homes the first focus will be operation kitchen garden we're going to set up a model which will turn into a community food garden so we're going to provide a source of food locally and then we're going to be installing individual kitchen gardens at each home so then the second part of operation kitchen garden is to install at their houses gutters sometimes to replace the roof we'll install storage tank and irrigation systems that feed their kitchen garden there's more we're partnering with green stretch pen so we will be having school children work in the community garden we will be teaching them how to make good healthy food from the food that we grow as well as teaching them some of those stretch exercise things that green stretch pen does we're also working with benji bridges from ysi he's developed a permaculture plan for the whole town of buoy and we're going to be doing earthworks improvements to catch rainwater so we can plant fruit and nut trees throughout the whole town and you can just walk through the streets pluck an apple or some nuts for no cost and the project will live up to its name project oasis it's a town of 312 people we're really feeling optimistic and excited that we can make an impact in this community with the half an acre especially when we have supplemental gardens installed at each of the 100 homes i want to thank singapore group for helping to fund the young apache man from san carlos reservation who did the painting mr joseph brown eagle he did a beautiful job don't you think so welcome to the inside of our community center and project oasis headquarters you can see the sanskrit graffiti left over from the day when we got this building going for a pomo and we're going to be having ecological restoration workshops here our first focus is going to be establishing food and water security for the town through our installation of small kitchen gardens at participating homes and we'll be having potlucks and fun get-togethers here in the building otherwise so we'll look forward

[Speaker 2]
to keeping you posted okay wonderful so this is a expedition kat and i had the chance to do just last retreat in diamond mountain i would like to uh ask the tech table if you can help me to yes highlight cat how are you thank you so much how are you doing great thank you for having sky harvest on board tonight my pleasure so last time we were there you were telling me about how almost uh ready to implement the whole plan uh you're getting over there so today we would like to just ask you how's it going and how can we all support if we want to help the the project

[Speaker 3]
there oh thank you for asking yes there's lots of ways to help um we're introducing food and water security to the town of buoy with individual kitchen gardens and that we're installing in each person's home who participates with the program and we're installing water catchment equipment onto each participating home so they can irrigate with confidence that they have enough water for their food as well as not have to pay for the water from the water company so we have a program where you can fund a family's food source for 250 dollars which will provide seeds soil and raised garden beds and then we have an option for 1950 donation that you could install the gutters the downspouts the water storage tanks and the irrigation system um so thank you very much if you would like to help empower this town with some healthy food uh it's interesting to note that the united nations created a designation for towns such as buoy which is diamond mountains backyard by the way called food deserts and if a town is 25 below poverty level and more than two miles from a healthy food store it's considered a food desert and buoy is 25 miles from the nearest store so having healthy food locally is going to radically improve their quality of life and food available in their own backyard with free water is going to be wonderful

[Speaker 2]
yeah i think the project is really capable of making a big impact on the community and i like to think how diamond mountain which is this big retreat center in the town of buoy is also spreading the light you know to all the surroundings it's very wonderful this idea like you are planting a big seed and then all the fruits all the light all the resources are spreading out so thank you so much for doing this i like this idea there are 100 homes and with this like average of two thousand dollars each house can do amazing things that's gonna make them very sustainable in the future i think when this project how say ripens it's gonna attract a lot of good energy a lot of good people into the area so thank you so much for saving this area i will say thank you thank you so much thank you for your support very welcome and we will keep talking with you to see how it's going so if anybody wants to support please just approach us ask questions we will help you and then soon we will keep checking on how the progress is going in this wonderful

[Speaker 3]
wonderful project excellent and you can make donations directly at that qr code thank you so

[Speaker 2]
much good to see you kat and we will see again soon for now we're gonna move on with uh colonel ben kramer he's ready to answer all your questions either right or wrong i don't know we're about to check just kidding see you later thank you one that's awesome thank you