Сугэн Ши — Книга 2: Колесо жизни (первый принцип и подразделения зависимости), занятие 54

[Speaker 1]
Oh, good morning, boss. Sorry, good afternoon, boss. Hello.

It's morning in Indonesia now. Oh, can I tell it's not quite awake yet. Yeah.

Can I start with the homework. Yeah, don't forget the rule grandpa doesn't have to do the homework. Yes, definitely.

We have Rob Haggerty here. So I'm safe. All right, let's start.

What does the terms substance really mean in this phrase, make a wish for its substance to transform as they desire. Anyone remember. Wow, good luck.

You mean like referring to energy like the earth and such. Yeah, that's what we think but it is not. So instead.

Yeah, I mean that's a good try. In fact, that is the discussion in the book.

[Speaker 3]
We and all that. No.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that is what we thought but it's not really. It's not really it's something. Towards the person instead of the object.

[Speaker 3]
Is it that they transform within themselves.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, close close in the mind in the mind of the meditator. So, yeah, that's very close. So, so it is not referring to the characteristics like earth solidity etc.

When we talk about a meditator with wishes in front of the same tree trunk we are not talking about the elements instead, we really mean to say that they are many elements possible in the mind of the meditator. Otherwise the tree trunk would have infinite elements inside it which is not correct. So, what really happens in the meditators mind.

I know this sounds confusing but it is confusing. So what really happens in the meditators mind. What are we talking about here.

What are we doing with the elements. Sorry, what's that. Who is that.

It's mine. Okay, I'll try to make it louder.

[Speaker 3]
No, I mean, okay. You're transforming the elements in their own stuff like the elements that within the seeds of themselves.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, very very close, very close. I would say 95% Yeah, we are not talking about a meditator changing the elements because constituents piece in the tree, but rather changing the casual capacity of the elements in the tree, which is the ability to cause something. Okay, I hope this is this.

I hope this English is easy to understand. So basically we are changing the money, the meditator is changing the elements. No sorry the meditator is not changing the elements but changing the casual capacity of the elements in the tree.

So, yeah, this is what the book says. Okay, the last one. What are the two things that always have to come together when we talk about the misunderstanding them, and what it triggers.

[Speaker 3]
I checked the Sanskrit word for the element. This word itself could could mean causes.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, yes, it could mean causes. That's why we are saying we are changing the casual capacity of the elements.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. What is it. What's the Sanskrit word that you have to adapt to.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, this word itself could mean like categories of elements but also to the cost.

[Speaker 1]
That's, yeah, okay, thank you, that to like come back to something right. Yeah. Okay.

So, yeah, what are the two things that always have to come together when we talk about misunderstanding. Hi Venerable Phil, nice to have you here. Venerable Phil.

[Speaker 3]
Conditions and the result of the conditions.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, bingo. Is that Oscar. Yeah.

Yeah, there are always those two of the conditions and the results of the conditions, if they were not fixed together there would be problems. Yay. Yay.

All right, the Tibetan words. Melt. Melt.

Thank you. It can also mean to digest but not here. To digest.

Okay. And it's, you can see digestion is perceived like melting the food. Oh yeah, that's right.

Oh yeah. Yeah, so I have not melted any food yet. This morning.

Your wife's waiting for you to cook. Okay, then that has to wait for another hour. What is he or she desires.

As desired. Yeah, thank you. As desired, right.

Paper, paper, this is a special word that Geshe Michael give some clue, explanation further. No, no, I mean I was saying that you gave us a further explanation. I gave you a trick for remembering it.

Yes, that's true. Paper. To strengthen.

Yes, that's right. Chloe says strengthen. Say again Geshe-la.

Chloe says strengthen. She said she'll take 90 instead of 100. Is that same as the discount.

Okay, yeah. So Geshe-la was saying that the trick to remember is to take the B and the S away. So it, it is it means a horse and horse has this connotation of being strong in the, in the old Tibet.

Old Tibet. Yeah. All right, let's move on to the text to the attempted translation.

Yes, it's going to be painful today. Even for me.

[Speaker 3]
You actually translated. Yay.

[Speaker 1]
This is an attempt at translation. So yeah, Geshe-la this is the text I hope the English is acceptable. Okay.

If the first thing is only the cause of the second thing, which are meritorious memories and the shifting given me given on dominance whenever you worry about something. Oh, have we done this by. This sounds so familiar.

We're supposed to start with Kanyang. Yeah. Yeah.

So yeah, we did that. Sorry. Okay.

This is Kanyang. Okay. Let me, let me read.

Okay. Yeah. Now Vassapandu has been saying that the cause of dzu-che, which is Karma, factors, second link, is the first link, which is misunderstanding.

And then our opponent here keeps saying, but if you emphasize that misunderstanding is the trigger for the second link of karma, even if you call it factors, then what about statements from sutra that say there's a lot of other factors involved, like intention, etc.? And doesn't another sutra say that there are three roots of virtue and three roots for non-virtue, and that these three are the foundation and the source of karma good, which seems to contradict the statement that there's only one cause. One cause.

Yeah, so this is the other guy. Yeah, okay. By the way, I think he's going to bring up...

I think he is... I think these three paragraphs are all the other guy. Okay.

And the same point is being made, which is what? There are more than one cause of karma. Yeah, there's more than one cause of karma.

So there's one quotation from sutra which contradicts what you said about misunderstanding being the single cause of karma. Okay. Here's another sutra that says there's three causes of karma.

Okay. Okay, sure. All right.

So, yeah, Geshe-la, I'm just thinking that maybe I should just italicize the statements that are supposed to come from the other side, right? That would be helpful, yeah. Okay.

Instead of all we have in this new book by this guy from Singapore. Okay, sure. Thank you.

Okay. Yeah, by the way, I just saw a mistake in this, an important mistake. The dak is ngak.

The dak is ngak. N-G-A-G. In the second line.

In the second line. Yeah, it's N-G-A-G. Should be N-G-A-G.

Okay, good. Okay. So he says...

If you read it now, it makes more sense. He says, ngak je... What's that mean?

Ngak je, second line. Ngak je.

[Speaker 3]
Words of praise?

[Speaker 1]
We speak. We say... We...

We... Speak. Okay.

We speak speech, or we give... How do you say? We emit speech.

Anyway, we speak speech through a lot of factors. And he has a list here. You know, we express speech.

How's that? That's better. We express speech through a lot of factors here.

There has to be tsorwa, which is triggered by rekpa. There has to be a feeling triggered by the contact? Yeah, contact with the outside world.

So to speak, number one, we need feeling. Okay. Number two, we need dushe.

We need the... Conceptualization. Okay.

We also need... The mind? The mind?

Sam? Not Sam. Sampa.

Oh, the movement of the mind. Movement of the mind. There has to be a movement of the mind.

Before you speak, there has to be feeling. There has to be conception. There has to be...

The mind has to move. And then, this next half a line is a long version of tokpa dan chupa, tokpa dan chup, tok chu, vittarka vichara. It's just a long version.

It's just a long version of that that we already know. Okay. So the vittarka that I read.

No, no, second. So now, repeat back to me again. If I want to say something, what has to happen first?

The movement of the mind. yeah followed by feeling to contact there's five things here that have to happen yeah I have to have feeling resulting from contact number one I have to have the concern conception conception yeah and I need movement of the mind I need to think about what I want to say and then that thinking involves topa and shopa yeah examining and realizing noting roughly well things you don't need to ship me in the epidemic roughly I have to note something and then in detail I have to examine it five different states of mind have to precede speaking okay which means that what's the second kind of karma verb speaking body speech in mind right so if you're gonna talk you there's got to be five factors but you said misunderstanding was the only reason the only cause of karma you said link number two is always caused only by link number one but here's Buddha saying you need five different things going on to say something which is verbal karma got it complaining that though that the teaching on dependent origination in twelve links only identifies misunderstanding as the trigger for karma he said here's you got five triggers just to say bop okay the guy and he's in peace complaining right by the way he started the complaining in the last paragraph okay oh yeah that's true yeah okay yeah all right but Japan might you know my dog my chip on in my you know also people in the world say by the way this is a common expression in the ancient books you shouldn't ever open your mouth my dog much it yeah in ancient language it's called my dog much it means don't open your mouth without thinking about what you're gonna say first then our other guy says what that's been talking to each are our kinds of misunderstanding why you said there's only one trigger for karma the whole world says don't open your mouth until you think about it but that can't be a cause of karma because opening your mouth is verbal karma he's complaining the other guy okay got it yes you are all these things you are you contradict all this all this thing yeah this story that the only cause of karma is the first link which is misunderstanding it's wrong there's lots of things going on there's lots of other mental stuff going on before you do before you speak for example you can't say that there's only one cause of karma you can't say there's only one link number one before link number two got it yes all right sure thank you please reads again yes on day on day do check on a can marik by intake data Kone can marik by in key in key shanky my nani marik penampar mim pay drew dre boot on shang you tune pay dre boom a park your water hmm however if if nice if my misunderstanding were the only condition for fresh karma good and a fresh car and the only thing triggered by misunderstanding that kind of getting murky in key and nothing else were involved nice marik paying number member debris young and nothing else were involved and there would be neither ripening from misunderstanding well what he's saying when he says then there would be neither ripening right when it says there your third point of English in your third line of English yeah okay but now it's the end of the second one if they're okay so listen again if my position is that the only cause of fresh karma is misunderstanding right then what kinds of results would I observe in the world all karmic results would be the results of misunderstanding and and then you would never see here's the third line okay you would never see results issuing from other causes you wouldn't see consistent results in other words matching results coming from anything else if karma were only caused by misunderstanding then there would be no other results in the world which are karmic results which resulted from your intention or your your emotions or or your your what was that example your conceptions as you do an action right all of the other factors involved with a karma they would not have their corresponding results according to you okay okay there would only be one the one from ignorance the one from misunderstanding okay so only misunderstanding would have a matching zone and all the other factors that go into saying something for example would not have their own results they would not have matching results because according to you there's only one cause of karma sure all right so okay so the next line Shenyang Dodele Marikpani Kuntun Ducak Parjawe Chirdang Kuntu Shedang Jarwa jar sorry Shenyang Dodele Marikpani Kuntun Ducak Parjawe Chirdang Kuntu Shedang Jarwa Jarwe Chirdang Kuntu Timuk Parjawe Chir Sejawadang yeah and then he says moreover doesn't don't the sutra say that misunderstanding makes you have dutcha beside yeah misunderstanding makes you have desire meaning ignorant desire meaning desire where you would hurt someone to get what you want right okay so listen does sutra say that misunderstanding leads to ignorant desire you say yeah does sutra say that misunderstanding leads to getting upset or angry because you don't realize the person's coming from you at that moment yeah it does doesn't doesn't sutra even say that misunderstanding produces a state of stupidity Timo could do Timo okay yeah right so can we say understanding creates wrong desire wrong this wrong liking wrong disliking and and more misunderstanding can we say that no you can't but there's only one cause that misunderstanding only creates fresh karma you just said that the guys the guys says look you can't say that link one causes link to there's lots of non link ones that causes link to and by the way there's lots of link to's that aren't caused by link one and there's lots of link one else that are not in link to okay yeah I don't know why you got this hung up on one two okay all right okay what does the kundu here means it means full of it means all messed up oh yeah it just means you know overcome by overcome by ignorant liking overcome by ignorant disliking and overcome by stupidity ignorant stupidity and those are all classic those are all classic results of misunderstanding so how can you say it's a one-to-one correspondence link one cause it's too simple link one causes a bit of things and there's lots of things not in link to that link one causes like that okay I don't know why you get this I don't know why you get this misunderstanding causes karma there's intention section there's you know okay history with the person all right so yeah this is supposed to be the end but I try to continue further so do you want to take the plane okay I'm gonna take the plane just so we can torture other people all right sure okay thank you good job on your homework I'm really in this term I think every it's not it's working hard on their homework almost okay okay like who was that who was okay again you gotta choose somebody and then you have to check you can do or you can do people online I'll start with the room I hope I hope I think Chloe's see in the room I'm gonna try to turn the camera around a lot of people they were begging me to read the game okay who is who is who is asking to read otherwise then I will invite all oh they're all on their knees now yeah I don't know I mean the first the first one nearest to you guess you love who is the one in front the one in front is not in front it's kind of an emptiness thing well there is a book that says the first shall be last and the last shall be first hustle I guess hey if you're if you want to see more of this handsome guy come to peach tree world news broadcasting from Guadalajara Lam Rim retreat on July 8 July 8 what in Asia no in a yeah in Asia the night 9 a.m. 9 p.m. in Asia the 8th of July yeah you can see two handsome guys yeah two three all right so please read check-ins again okay my

[Speaker 2]
Kuntu Chungwa lay sack but Kuntu Chungwa say Chihuahua he's going can't eat but can't can't eat but Miguel way to turn them Miguel way to Nampa do my Kuntu Chungwa they talk Tom Cheney my big pay you Chen you know she cha-wa-la sopa

[Speaker 3]
sumpa tae-tang gale war guru just want to make myself a nose I don't forget okay

[Speaker 1]
try to read Marik but again no what's in my misunderstanding yeah misunderstanding what's kunju the source of suffering from the source called misunderstanding flows all suckers Oh all impurities Mala if that's the Mala in Bimala she sucked that's no Mala what's an English word that has malicious yeah malfactor okay so he says he says what about the sutra that says from the source of suffering called missing misunderstanding comes the source of suffering called impurity what about that sutra so are you saying that if something comes from link number one it has to be linked number two then all then all then there's only two links in the Wheel of Life because all 12 links are soccer all 12 links are impurity okay so according to you if there's a one-to-one correspondence between link number one and link number two then the rest of the wheel is link number two every every unclean thing in the universe is link number two there's no in the whole wheel in the whole picture within the circle of the wheel there's nothing pure at all nothing zero it's it's a circle only the person outside only the person else okay so he's given another example of why it's not true that the only thing that comes from misunderstanding is factors in the sense of fresh karma and what's hustle that Dean okay he needs to threaten somebody actually deeper McGee which the unhappiness yeah in those things or what phenomena non-virtue non-virtue stuff many kinds do more could a gentleman's they flow out of they flow out of misunderstanding they don't come Jamie all of them according to sutra are you Chen of Maripa because yeah that's the place dream no can you say this is cause because yeah you chin they have their cause misunderstanding why didn't he just say they are the result of misunderstanding why did he say they have as their cause misunderstanding he wants to emphasize okay so he called result here the thing that has the cups do chin okay like symptom so he says he said in sutra who Lord Buddha what did he say oh all of these problems all of these impurities all of these bad days bad karma they all come from the cause of misunderstanding right okay he's quoting sutra I have that's very tricky so I guess in a way is right no because didn't didn't Vasant Bhandu already say that the second cannot be called karma he wants to call effects don't call it you on don't call it good karma back home that's not the name of the second leap so the guy says look everybody knows the you get bad deeds and bad karma from misunderstanding why aren't we allowed to say that according to you you're not supposed to refer to the second thing guess we're supposed to do this any factors or something and then he says Buddha call the karma you have a problem with that okay yeah gal with the symbol of the Buddha what's that you you are with the teaching of the Buddha you contradict the word of the Buddha Somba is a high word that only refers to this well normally your mama speech on Buddha speeches all right I think it was so shorts again yes

[Speaker 2]
please continue on me yeah so if you say what's Nika

[Speaker 1]
things that he's complaining about conditions and the result of the conditions it's understanding creates factors and factors are created from misunderstanding okay thanks according to you one causes the other and the other is caused by the other okay if it's if it's fixed according to use you got kids from both sides problems you have problems you got problems from saying one causes only two mm-hmm and you got problems from saying that two can only be caused by one and I just listed for you like ten super quotations that you have problems there's problems now you gotta by the way he's still picking on us here comes the she knows who game finally when someone complains to you in the scriptures he gave his complaint comes at the end and you don't know how many lines back is here there's only an invitation mark in Buddhism you never see you never beginning there's no beginning quotation so you gotta figure it out all right who's gonna read this once again I'm tired of this guy let's get some ah we got the Israeli scholar here sitting yeah back from yes direct from telling me you're so lucky okay here we go okay I'm well you are the cursor wait let me give you a big cursor if you're gonna curse you got a crispy right that's what she didn't tell me okay there you go I'm taking a break on tema Wow

[Speaker 2]
NEPA in me my Rick Bay can she do she do she do she don't buy don't buy in

[Speaker 1]
in in no China stay for one more he wants you to I know oh and then the guy says by the way this is still the guy complaining to us and he says oh and we say well look it's not always the case that two comes from one or one causes two I mean it's just a general rule and he says Oh general rule my name by you know well I guess when Lord Buddha said factors are triggered by misunderstanding it was meaningless oh I guess Lord made a mistake right he didn't know he's talking about why oh because sometimes one triggers two and sometimes two is triggered from one but it's not exactly fixed my name it's not it's not always fixed okay there could be intention there could be you know we call conception right what are they emotion intention conception okay these three there's other factors that create now how are we gonna answer this guy I'm always right no needs gonna read one yeah and so gang I want you to translate this but I'm gonna give you a clue okay don't forget the word tongue a don't forget the word what's tongue a reputation some of what Buddha said was literal has to be interpreted okay what's me literal literal okay so think of me as literal here okay and and this is a very profound statement by bus abundant to 1,300 years before it's on copper road tongue a okay okay so he had a head foster bond who says look regarding Lord Buddha's statements about one link one triggering link to there's NEPA and there's money Oh literal and not literal but we turn literal yeah there's there's parts that are literal and there's parts that are not literal both okay but but even though that's true a ship but doesn't become doing me the teaching the what it is not the meaningless right yeah it's it's a very beautiful statement some of what Lord Buddha said you have to take it as he said it some of what Lord Buddha said you cannot take it as he said it but the fact that there's both of those doesn't mean that he said anything meaningless everything had me whether he meant it literally or he meant it figuratively and here's here's Vassapan is saying that 1,000 how many 1,700 long time now before it's on cover 1,300 years before it's all right it's a beautiful sentence now Rony you have to choose the next person oh that way they hate you instead of me and

[Speaker 2]
today behind Chloe behind Chloe now that's kind of a big space

[Speaker 1]
Jacqueline Jacqueline we got Jacqueline coming oh can you text me tell her not to forget the dog treats she said she wanted to bring something from Lucas yes please and you got the cursor okay okay so gang I'm taking a break you talk you talk with this lady yes please correct me please re station do Tampa yeah so somewhere in the sutra it mentioned like that and Vasubandhu says listen all they're saying is marikpa is the token of duty the main factor is the main factor we didn't say it was the only factor you keep saying Kona Kona Kona we were just saying told to a tall mainly okay that's all we ever said okay now the guy not satisfied he says well how is it so well okay how is it so okay

[Speaker 2]
Jacqueline's gonna lead you through this one so so so so Ken yen Zana so gang

[Speaker 1]
yeah so why why why is the misunderstanding the main fact main main cause of the factors of the press karma yeah so the guy you know the guy lost the debate and he's like but but okay but why is it the main factor he's not quitting it's like now what is mainly okay and I think Jack Jack was begging

[Speaker 2]
me to do one more sentence so now so pay Lana do they know they name do J me

[Speaker 1]
you can yen pay chair oh yeah thank you okay escape but be ready to tell me who's the next person so Sonam LaSopa is again the the virtue the merits and etc what's what's the etc here in the classic three married non-married and unshifting nice nice those guys lay them now here he calls them lay okay they are do Jenny they are what we are talking about when we talk about the second link okay karma which merit non-merit unshifting they are what we're referring to when we say factors okay and they because of that because of them okay and because they are the by the way he said soul right he's trying to say soul how is his question was how is misunderstanding the main factor in the factors and we say because it it is what brings the factors together it is the one thing neat that brings the factors together okay misunderstanding is the one thing that me is the one thing here's do Jay you have to read it as literal that brings together the different kinds of karma okay misunderstanding is the main cause of of karma okay because it's the it is the one thing me that brings together all the different kinds of karma okay me a wonky then it's due to that that we say that it's soul marik but is that so again it's the main cause okay main trigger okay so when we say when we say misunderstanding is the trigger of fresh karma we just mean it's the main trigger of fresh karma okay why because it's always the main element whenever karma is produced and then he made a joke whenever you bring together a car which is the name of the second layer yeah yeah good you are you couldn't couldn't a jewel not young cheeky in BH and listen it's the general cause of all in all the sources of suffering okay you talk about where suffering comes from it's them it's the principal factor therefore we call it main factor because the guy asked him a question why do you say main factor why did he say main factor because he wanted to get out of the problem of calling it the only factor yeah and then he says well what do you mean by main factor it says well it's the main thing involved when in suffering and the source of suffering okay yay next Jacqueline who's next don't get she's gonna get a fire me she said so gang if she has to read she's not gonna finish your book you got the curse you got a correctus again I'm taking a break okay he's gonna prove why ignorance why misunderstanding triggers factors of karma by by saying it in a negative way okay here we go Rigpa if if Rick was the opposite of words again Marika Marika yeah so he's gonna flip it around we're gonna bust a bun is gonna flip around if you don't care if we don't start the understanding if you don't start understand yeah if you don't understand then things will come together for you to go into a young see Reba yeah and by you know this to better word to cool yeah which reincarnated teacher right young see is another name in colloquial Tibetan so you say oh he's probably young see okay here it means rebirth okay so if you fail in this life to reach the direct assertion emptiness which here is called understand as a misunderstanding you will have to you will be collected together into a new birth and he's making a pun because we're in for the second ring okay and if Rick but gay do get that wisdom understanding occurs if you have understanding he will not have this because it is the ultimate source of all non synonyms non-merit unmerit karmas DJ okay because it is the ultimate source of all non merit karmas okay and because it is linked mentally with every no more but negative or things with emotions because it's linked with what's linked he doesn't mention what we're talking about Maripa yeah misunderstanding is ultimately responsible for all negative karmas and misunderstanding is mentally linked with all negative states of mind therefore we can say she they are the general condition general you know condition we didn't now if you can give me the next words again hundred dollars for the triple-a scholarship fund his three kids name starting okay now shin chance pinching him and I forgot what the question was what word did he use for cheese so far he by the way it was a response to the accusation that only misunderstanding was the cause guess they gave you a hint but it was too soft Oh general he he said I don't like it when you say misunderstanding is the only cause of karma and then we came back with no misunderstanding is just because I'm gonna spread the money out in the room here big and and here instead of soul he said she yeah it's just another word for soul okay it's it's a trigger it's an all-purpose trigger okay cool again oh cool thank you the last class for this term so for the next term I'm gonna have to go to peach tree and eat cinnamon rolls all morning that's really sad that I continue with a few more paragraphs Gershwin these are big I want to go down to this to this poem on okay okay sure he says yeah he quotes something that says Maripa is so cool yeah we'll have to see if we can find that I by the way I think it's a park up could see sometimes to give you a break they'll make a little poem which is not from he's just making you a little poem did you get it that it wasn't the meat that it was just the main and it wasn't the only did you get and he'll write a little song so you're gonna finish that one okay all right Mr. Nicholas what's up next cool cool thank you thank you thanks everybody and I'll real quick Diamond Mountain is hosting an event that and they're looking for volunteers and it's an earth summit or consent Marina who was it whoever that was Maria please post the link in the chat if you're interested in volunteering at Diamond Mountain I'm not sure of the date so check out the link there it is August 13th 19th few of you have made donations to the Mixed Nuts we're really really really grateful for your support um and I'll write you guys individually and let you know how much we appreciate you but anybody wants to support the Mixed Nuts uh we have a long-term vision for translating a lot of books so we do need your help so please uh please me and Veronica will match three thousand okay but we won't give it we won't give it unless it's matched that means I'm going to be reminding y'all it's 5 28 p.m. uh June 2nd so everything that comes in from here will count towards that three thousand yeah all right if you get three thousand I'll match it what since I said hey 1500 already all right since I said all right I promise um he's supporting the translation efforts that promises to spend a long time and we have many many books with many cool ideas and I'll hit you up again later so take a take a five-minute break thank you very much thank you thank you Gisela please uh take care

[Speaker 3]
and uh stay yeah I love it yeah okay five minutes