Ник Лашо — Книга 2: Ратнамала, занятие 4

[Speaker 1]
Wow, that's a good one.

[Speaker 2]
Believe it can be done.

[Speaker 1]
Believe it can be done. Yeah. It's that way, I mean, you either fall off on the left or the right, right?

Yeah, exactly.

[Speaker 3]
Left side, right side, USA.

[Speaker 1]
I'm still thinking about it. I didn't want to, I wrote down ideas that I had, but I didn't feel ready to commit to any of them. You know, I think I can say you'll know it when you see it.

Yeah, cool. I just, because I know it's like we're committing to it for a long time. I know we're going to commit for many years.

For many years.

[Speaker 2]
Many years.

[Speaker 1]
We're going to commit for many years. Okay, here's my quiz. Make sure I whited everything out.

Okay. I'm sorry, Nick, I don't know where that came from.

[Speaker 2]
It was only three seconds, it's okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I like that. I like trying to make it three seconds long. YouTube doesn't mind.

Okay, Nick, you're up. Sorry. For some reason, Aldo, you're leaking into the.

Sorry. I know. It's cute.

Yeah, it makes me happy to hear your voice. I miss those guys. I know.

What are two ideas that Yeltsin credits Aria Nagarjuna with establishing? When I'm making these quizzes, it seems like easy and everybody's going to remember, but then now that I'm. They had 23 classes after you.

I know, I know. I'm foolish to think that way. We're recovering.

What book is this? So, but I'll give you a hint for this one. One of them is probably the main thing that Aria Nagarjuna is famous for, or it's like a way of describing one of the most famous things he's famous for in terms of the Buddhist teachings.

[Speaker 3]
Not the art of interpretation, is it?

[Speaker 1]
It's related to the art of interpretation. It is related to the art of interpretation. I feel like that should be enough of a hint for Ben or Utpal or Word.

[Speaker 3]
You don't have to say anything in Tibetan.

[Speaker 1]
It's this long. There. This is the first idea.

So, Yeltsin credits Aria Nagarjuna with showing something to the world. And it's that.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, that the second tuning is literal.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Awesome. The literal meaning of the sutras is the profound middle way.

And then the other one was a little bit more obscure. And let's see. I'll give you a hint.

It's something that.

[Speaker 2]
Establishing the terms.

[Speaker 1]
No. No. Let's see.

There is a term that is once you see the English, you're going to be able to figure out the Tibetan probably. And it has something to do with paths.

[Speaker 2]
Getting to emptiness through.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, all things are ultimately one path. Yeah, good. Oh, okay.

Word, I'm sure you remember the Tibetan. Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
In the end.

[Speaker 1]
Great. Nice. All right.

Here's a more fun question. I wanted to repeat that that principle is considered to apply to all religions in the world. Ultimately, they all lead to the same place.

Somebody sent me a direct message. Do we have a Chinese interpreter because somebody had sent me a direct message to set them as the interpreter but I'm not doing that right now. He's Catherine.

Junie should be Chinese, I think. She's the interpreter. Okay, good.

Thank you. Thank you. Sorry, I didn't see the message.

Name the six books of watch. So here's a kind of a harder. Whoa.

But this is fun. And it just it just came up like. And I when I read it because you might call it really does look like there's one paragraph, he's saying these are the books on reasoning, and then he gives six.

Oh, yeah. I think the question is whether your book is one of the six. He lists it as being one of the six.

I don't think so. And then I looked it up online and it didn't say it did seem to say that online to. Well, I don't trust online.

I know I know and I can probably if I Google enough I'll find things and say, I'm going to look it up for you in the meantime. Okay, sure. Yeah.

So here it's listed as one of the six I just gave you one of them.

[Speaker 2]
We have major. There we go.

[Speaker 1]
Got it. Wait, we're still up you guys still have to give me the other languages though. So, so what's for what.

Yeah, go ahead, word you're about to give me the first one. Okay, go ahead and give me the English and then Tibetan and Sanskrit. Well English is, there's different ways to say it but the wisdom is the simplest form or the root texts on wisdom.

Yep. And then the. I'm the Tibetan is solo shadow.

Yeah. And then the Sanskrit is fresh, fresh. Yeah, that's kind of like the Sanskrit nickname but I think that the full the official name in Sanskrit is Mula Madhya Mithya Karka, or that's how it's usually.

Okay. But, uh, but they also do say that. Yeah, I mean it probably his.

The gardener probably named it progeny. Right. This is what they call it now.

60 verses on wisdom is not next. Yep. Rick so true.

No. Is that the 60 verses on reason. Rick so true.

No.

[Speaker 2]
Rick. Yep.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, okay. And then Sanskrit. Anyone.

I share is here maybe. I don't know, I mean, that's the rest is just something. Yeah, I mean you it's it that's in there.

I know I know how to say 60 but vaguely so I don't know. Yeah, there you go. 60 verses on reasoning record to by you.

[Speaker 3]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
I'm crushing my foes I don't know what number it is but I know. Yeah, let me try to remember what are what order I put them in. Yeah, that's it.

That's the next one. Yeah, crushing, crushing arguments into fine powder or, I guess as we learned about something about fine powder like crushing their details and correcting the details that they thought were.

[Speaker 3]
They consider themselves to have like subtle arguments or something in their logic.

[Speaker 1]
I didn't go so far as to change the name to fit that but I did and then it was so long it took more than one line and I just didn't like it aesthetically on the page of my quiz. So I just went with the title that gets all I gave us last term, or last time. Something shit more, I forget the whole thing.

Yeah. Yeah, what's, what's destroying. I don't know, maybe, or, or.

So, or anybody remember we talked about it. Yeah, yeah. Good.

Sanskrit. The only reason I been you know it. Really, yeah, think of Georgia.

[Speaker 3]
I tell you. Although got it. It just says he could only speak in Spanish.

[Speaker 1]
So, um, so numb talk means crushing I don't know that one. Yeah. Okay.

Cool. Well you'll never we all know that you will now never forget it. I'll try though.

Don't do that for our benefit. Anybody remember any of them, any more of them. Did you say one Paula.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Stopping argument.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Sanskrit No. Yeah, why would.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, whoops. I didn't put them in that order. Here's one 70 versus on emptiness we're gonna talk about it in a second.

This is the one you were just talking about. Sounds good to that sub the shunyata or something. Yeah, it is something like that it's, but it starts with Shinya if I'm not ready to go.

I don't know what happened here. Oh, there we go. Shunyata subtlety.

Things are misspelled. Okay, this is the one, stopping all arguments and doc. Vigraha I can't remember this one to save my life.

Vigraha Vyavartani. And the sixth one, anybody. Ratnavali.

Hey. Or Ratnamala or there's like three ways to put it or something. That's it.

No Ratnavali and Ratnamala are the main two. I think there might be a third string of jewels. Oh, I should have waited for the Tibetan but yeah, French and Chinese.

Okay, Geshe Michael is going to tell us if this number six is correct. I. This is what I found in my research but I only, you know, I doubt my research.

When the boss is doing research. Oh, are you ready. Are you ready.

Ready. I'll show you a couple quotations I remember working on this a couple times. Let me get this.

On the left side is Tsongkhapa in his string of golden beads, you know, and let's count with him. Umazawa is number one of the six. Okay.

Then, Tsendok. Okay. Number two.

Then, Dongli Dunjupa, number three. Then, Rigpa Dugjupa, which you maybe know. He says, Deishi.

Deishi means we have four so far. Then, Namtak. Shimla, number five.

He says Nga'o, number five. Then he says, some people, okay, say Rinchen Tengwa or Kale Jigme can be added to those five to make six. Rinchen Tengwa or which?

Or a book called... Is it Kale Jigme? Fear of Nothing.

Chang'e Dripadang, Tsendok, Dongli Dunjupa. Okay. Anyway.

Okay, now here's Kirtip Temudagye on the same list. In a folder that you and I created many years ago, we had these six. Okay, and here's Kirtip Temudagye.

Okay, what are the six? Tsawasera, okay, is number one. Shimla Namtak is number two.

Dongli Dunjupa is number three. Tsendok is number four. Rinchen Tengwa is number five.

And Rikpa Dunjupa is number six. Okay. Okay.

So I don't know. We're missing one. Somehow I always think we're missing one.

I don't know. Anyway, there you go. So your list is correct, I think, yeah?

I think so. Okay, good. And you and I researched this together many years ago.

Yeah, many years ago. Okay, cool. My beard was less gray.

Keep going, Nicholas. Okay. If we were to collect the scriptures that prove emptiness using reasoning into groups, mainly, how many groups would there be?

Two. Yeah, good. Good.

Did somebody just say two based on the brackets that I left sitting there? Good, good. You're using logic.

You're using empty logic, logic of empty things. Like empty brackets. Does anybody remember what they are?

I'll give you a hint. The word mainly appears both times.

[Speaker 3]
Is it things itself?

[Speaker 1]
No. I'm looking sideways because the monitor of my computer stopped working, so I bought a monitor and now I'm looking. The camera and the monitor are not in the same place.

That's why I'm looking.

[Speaker 2]
The emptiness of dependent origination?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Right. Who's proving emptiness using dependent origination?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, that seemed unclear, but right.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it wasn't totally clear. But Geshe Michael seemed to settle on that interpretation.

[Speaker 3]
And the Buddha frees you from the two extremes.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, nice. It said scriptures which mainly teach that liberation from samsara comes from a path of realization which is free from extremes. All right.

By the way, Nick, I remember why I was disturbed. Shitting. I had a feeling.

Yeah, the letter to a friend.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
But isn't that more of a lamrim even than Ratnamala? No, it hasn't. The second half of the book is dedicated to proving emptiness.

Yeah. That's true. So it should be included among the books which are used to prove emptiness, right?

So anyway, that's my opinion. I think you could... I think this chedol, right?

What's chedol mean? It's explained that way. It bears further examination.

Oh, chedol, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I believe your list is the correct one. But I do remember some discussion about it, yeah. Okay.

All right. And now is this your translation, right? Chedol.

Yeah, chedol. Chedol means... I mean, that's when Tsongkhapa says he's stooped, and he says, I think someone else should dig deeper into this.

Of course, no one ever could. Sundog. Papaya argument and the 70 verses on emptiness.

Yeah, you and I discussed this principle a long time ago. Yep, five years ago. Yeah, from the root text on the Muslim.

They don't stand alone. I love that, don't stand alone, for Ram Kyawa. Very, very, very sensitive translation.

They don't stand alone as classical commentaries that teach the system in no way. Perfect. It's a great translation.

Yeah, that sentence is a good translation. Just technically, you should italicize book names. Uh-huh, right, right, right, right.

Okay, and it's slovenly to put them in quotation marks. Uh-huh.

[Speaker 2]
And it just creates work for me.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, quotation marks, because you're going to take them out.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good. Let's look at the next sentence and the next paragraph. Damboni, in the first.

,GAL TE DNGOS PO THAMS CAD KYI, ,DNGOS PO THAMS CAD ZHES SONG, RANG BZHIG GI STONG MA LA, ,THAMS CAD KYI Okay. This was a little harder. ,GAL TE DNGOS PO THAMS CAD KYI is a direct quotation from...

I gave it to you below, I think. Oh, no, I gave it to myself. I found these.

Okay, good. Oh, yeah, here it is, yeah. Yeah.

So this sentence that you're translating... Yeah, I didn't fix it after I found this. Yeah.

I like to use 16-point, by the way, just so it's inescapable. I see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just as a standard, let's do that. Okay. Okay.

Yeah, much better. Okay, good. Well, okay.

Okay, no, this still works, I believe, with... Sorry. Yeah.

,GAL TE DNGOS PO THAMS CAD KYI ZHES SONG, RANG BZHIG GI STONG MA LA, ,DGAG GRUB LA SOGS PA BYA CHE MI THEG PAR TSUL PA YIN NA, Wow, this is hard. ,THAM BO NI GAL TE DNGOS PO THAMS CAD KYI, The part that starts with GAL TE DNGOS PO THAMS CAD KYI, and you have to quote it, you see? Well, because it has a SO?

Yeah, it just means you're going to have to say, if all functioning things dot, dot, dot in quotation marks. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

So it's not statements-like. It's saying something really specific. Yeah, it's the section that starts with that, and it probably is the four lines that you blocked out.

Uh-huh, the section that starts with... Good, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then quote it.

Yeah, and by the way, if you want to have some fun today, okay? If you really want to have some fun today, that 16-point verse is a SHEN LUG. Oh, really?

Yeah, it's a... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Of course.

It's a criticism of nāgārjuna. Of course, yeah, yeah, because it's saying you can't debate. Yeah, listen, if all entities what?

Are empty of any nature of their own. Good, then you're at six. Then the words that you use when you debate are wrong.

Yeah, when you, nāgārjuna, debate us, then your words also don't have any nature. And how can they RANG BZHIN DO? How can they refute the idea that things...

How can they refute self-nature? Beautiful, beautiful, okay? So let's say it again.

It's so beautiful, you miss it. Here's the other guy. The other guy says, listen, if really, as you say, all functioning things have no nature of their own, then the words you use to attack me also have no nature of their own.

So how could you ever expect them to deny the idea that nothing has any nature of their own? This is the other guy complaining. So now that informs your translation here.

I understood that that's what he was saying. I was having trouble understanding how to translate exactly the words, you know, like... Do we do like, ,GAG GRUB LA SOGS PA BYA BYAS MI THEG PAR TSOD PA YIN, So he's saying it's incorrect to debate using things that prove or refute.

Hang on. ,THAMS CAD KYIS SHES SOGS RANG BZHIN GYI STONG PA LA, RANG BZHIN GYI STONG PA LA means in a world where nothing exists by its own nature. RANG BZHIN GYI STONG PA LA, in a world where all things are devoid of any nature.

In a world where all things have no nature. Okay, so I realized that I put the quotation marks in the wrong place. Then the whole CHA BYED means the way stuff works.

It's impossible. I see. Including GAG PA YIN me and GRUB PA YIN yourself.

Yeah, yeah. Then doing things... Then the way things work, CHA BYED is very, very famous.

CHA BYED MI THEG PAR means the whole system of the way things work in the world is impossible. That's a famous misunderstanding of Nagarjuna. Okay?

Nagarjuna responds, whatever farmers say, I agree. He says, I'm with the world. Don't think I'm denying the world.

So CHA BYED MI THEG PAR is a very famous expression that means nothing can work the way it seems to. Oh, I see. Including proving your own point and disproving my point.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

And that's... CHA PA YIN means that verse that starts with that line is an argument that the way everything in the world works would be impossible, according to you, Nagarjuna. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's an argument. I see. Wow.

I'll clean this up later. I just want to make sure. And that whole argument is actually a...

That whole argument is a... What do you call that? An extension.

Yeah, an extension. Or it's an enlargement upon something from the first chapter of Prajna. Wisdom.

The book called Wisdom. An elaboration? Yeah.

That whole idea is coming from a more basic idea expressed in the first chapter of Nagarjuna's most famous work where he says the nature of things. Dot, dot, dot. Oh, so that's just another quotation mark right there.

Yeah, but these two sections are related to each other. When you get this attempted denial of the power of words, it's actually just a... Nagarjuna is just writing a side book based on his main book.

Okay, that's all. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where he says...

Blah, blah, blah. All right, I'll clean it up later. And by the way, I believe it's in your text that the author, Gyaltsabje, is trying to make the distinction between books that take off on an idea from wisdom and have the whole explanation of emptiness and books that take off from an idea in wisdom that don't present the whole structure of emptiness.

I believe he's making this distinction. Some of the books that take off from Prajna, some of those books that are an enlargement of an idea first expressed in Prajna are standalone and some of them are not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. I put the little bibliography entry in here, too. God, I wish everyone could do that.

You want me to look at it?

[Speaker 2]
Dash out between middle and wave, please.

[Speaker 1]
Did you write it? No, no, I just copied it from... Actually, I think I did, but I copied it from my book.

I wrote it, but I wrote it a couple of years ago. Five years ago. So, in the new days, we would say Vigraha, space, Vyavartamayi, a capital V, Oh, wow, this is...

And then Karika would be a capital K. Uh-huh. I didn't realize we were doing this in the bibliography.

Yeah, that's what we do. It's correct, except it should be in italics. The Tibetan?

Yeah. Right, right, right, okay.

[Speaker 2]
And it includes that comma after the pa.

[Speaker 1]
Is it not? I forget what we do there, Utpala.

[Speaker 2]
No, I remember. I've done a gazillion of them. Dasala is now volume one.

It's not 96 anymore.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, did you just check?

[Speaker 2]
I'm looking at it right now.

[Speaker 1]
No, I was just curious. I believe you, I just...

[Speaker 2]
And the middle way section is now called middle way school section.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, because we renamed a bunch of things in the tenure.

[Speaker 2]
Yep, yep.

[Speaker 1]
And if I'm going to be... I think the whole thing is not justified. Right.

[Speaker 2]
That's true.

[Speaker 1]
Fully justified. No, it is. It is, it is double justified.

Well, something's wrong with the first line.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, there's an extra space in there, it looks like.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, that was weird. Yeah, there was a space. Yeah, the rest looks okay to me.

Utpala, what do you think?

[Speaker 2]
The dash between the folio numbers should be an end dash and not a normal dash.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, I don't know if I agree with that. That's a long dash.

[Speaker 2]
Not an M dash, an N dash.

[Speaker 1]
N is in Nancy dash. Oh, how do you make an N dash?

[Speaker 3]
I don't know how to make that.

[Speaker 2]
It's option dash.

[Speaker 1]
Just option dash?

[Speaker 2]
Correct.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
And that is just, it's a visual indicator that what you're talking about is a range of numbers. Some numbers have a dash and then another number, which indicates like a volume or a part. So it's just a visual support for the reader to understand what it is you're conveying to them.

[Speaker 1]
Also, I usually italicize the Tibetan letter.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, there you go. I think the rest is okay, but it's a very difficult thing to make a good entry.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, one more thing. Take the percentage sign away from the beginning of S1.

[Speaker 1]
Why?

[Speaker 2]
Because we don't use percentage signs in the bibliography entries. You just number them. And then when you refer to them in your translation, you refer to them with double percent signs.

That's a new way of doing it.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, double.

[Speaker 2]
So that I can easily search and replace when I'm in the editing process.

[Speaker 1]
Double percent signs.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. So from now on, you want us to do double percent signs? That's correct.

[Speaker 3]
Oh. Double percent signs.

[Speaker 1]
Well, let's send out an email so everybody remembers. Okay. And by the way, after we finish a book, we have to alphabetize the bibliographies.

And it's a mess. It's very, very difficult. So this helps.

There's many, many hours of work that you guys never see when a book like All the Kinds of Karma comes out. And by the way, I'm extremely strict about it because I think if you're not strict in your tools, you're not strict in your translation. You see what I mean?

If you can't write the tools properly, I don't see how you can translate. You see what I mean? If you can't write a bibliography entry with consistency, how can you translate a book?

And I've never seen a book of these genres that's ever been consistent. Never. I've never seen one.

Okay. So how can you translate if that doesn't disturb you? He's just bonafide.

All right. So N- is... Upala, maybe we can make a little style sheet together after a term so that we get all this stuff straight and what's italicized.

Yeah, and by the way, if someone pollutes the bibliography collection with a mistaken entry, it causes me a lot of trouble. So don't put entries into that document unchecked, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Well, we have to also remember, dear Geshe-la, that the standard has changed over time, so there will be a few differences.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, I'm okay with that, but don't put a bad entry in with all the good entries and then I use it and later I find out I used someone else's entry that wasn't clean. Yeah. Because nothing irritates Grandpa more.

Okay, let's get going, Nick. Please take the plane, sir. Yay, you did a good job on this.

And I appreciate that you're trying to do a bibliography thing. If everyone could just take responsibility for their own bibliography, it would save me and Utpala many, many, many hours of work.

[Speaker 3]
Is there a way to, like, are they all the exact same? Or should they look the exact same?

[Speaker 1]
They're all exactly the same. Templates and then something to validate them, maybe automatically? There are templates and people ignore them.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah, I'm not sure about validating automatically because the source that which we are putting in the entry is changing. Like, they change the name of a section or et cetera. They change the volume number.

[Speaker 1]
But there are six published...

[Speaker 2]
But the syntax is the same.

[Speaker 1]
There are six books published by the Mixed Nets that are clean and they have hundreds of bibliography entries. And if you're a translator and you can't read one and copy it, it's irritating. Okay, here we go.

Sorry, I didn't check this one. I just copied it from what I did five years ago. No.

[Speaker 2]
You have to let go of the plane, Nick.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, oh, that's why. Let me see where I am. You have to take the plane.

Let me see, what book are we in? Let's see here.

[Speaker 2]
Surfing the Middle Way, that's the book we're in.

[Speaker 1]
It's not this one. Hang on.

[Speaker 3]
There it is. Yep.

[Speaker 1]
Yay. Okay, now, Nick, here's the fun part. And I'm sorry, we used up almost the whole class, but here we go.

It says, those three and a half schools who believe that fire has its own heat, inherently, right? They made up something they want to prove, which is that the person and the parts of the person exist by nature. And that idea was attacked by Nagarjuna in his wisdom.

Okay. And, la, those wrong guys, the three and a half schools that have the wrong idea about things that function, they had false logic to prove their idea, that, for example, a fire existed by nature, that its heat was natural to it. So they have false logic.

And they purport, it purports to be subtle, but it's not, it's just wrong. And then when we say Nagarjuna crushed some wrong ideas into dust, it's a joke, it's a pun on the same word, subtle. He's smashing their subtleties.

And what they did to establish their wrong ideas, that some things could be self-existent, they tried to prove it with 16 logical devices. RTOG GYI'I TZIG BSTUN means devices of logic. And these devices are acceptable.

They are okay. They're just misused. They are acceptable tools.

They're all logical tools that are used by logicians. And since the Mixed Nuts has a policy, well, never to let a list like that go without explaining it all. Okay, we're going to go talk about the 16 logical devices that they used.

RTOG GYI'I means logic, right? TZIG BSTUN means here, devices. Please read here, Nick.

GZHAN BDE PA'I GZHAN BDE PA'I BDAG PA'I DANG NGOS GRUB BYAS RTOG GYI'I TZIG BSTUN CHOS GRUB NGAG PA SHI BA MO NA SHI BA, was it? SHIB MO Yeah, I was like, oh, is that what it said? Sorry.

I should have caught that. I didn't catch it. SHI MO Okay.

SHI BA NA Okay. Yeah, so GZHAN BDE PA'I DAG PA'I means made up by other people. This DAG PA is the one that means made up, right?

Made up by other groups. DANG NGOS GYI'I DNGOS PO Things which are true. Things which are real.

Functioning things which are real. Because the function of things is inherent to them. Fire is hot.

What things do is part of what they are, according to these schools. GRUB BYAS And to prove the idea of a functioning thing that's real, whose function is inherent to it, and not coming from me. And the example is in the kitchen, because husbands are inherently irritating.

RTOG GYI'I ZIG LTUN CHUD DU There's the 16 devices. Yeah. DGAG PA There are 16 logical devices that they use to prove that functioning things are real from their own side, right?

Those are refuted. Those are refuted in smashing to dust, okay? And this author, who is who?

Oh, it's our wonderful Mongolian scholar. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

He's great. We should translate something by him. Yeah.

Here are the 16 devices, okay? Number one, Nick. Sama, valid.

Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Accurate perception.

[Speaker 1]
We can't deny it. They're just misusing it. But it is a logical tool.

Nobody can say it's not. The concept of a shelja. A measurable thing, something you can...

Yeah, or Adam, what are we using nowadays? Object under control. Yeah, by object apprehended by the mind.

Object under consideration, I think. Okay, and then Nick, Tetong. Doubts.

Yeah, and then it says DGON PA, which is... True intent, but it's not really... It should be DGON PA.

Oh, the purpose. And, you know, there's a lot of people who use DGON PA by mistake. Oh, interesting.

DGON PA means the purpose. PE is clear. Examples or metaphors.

Yeah, DGUP TA. Sit down to a philosophical debate about it.

[Speaker 3]
YAN MA.

[Speaker 1]
Branches, in this case, I guess.

[Speaker 3]
Components.

[Speaker 1]
It's not clear what component. TOG PAS. Logic.

Yeah, good. TOG PAS. It'd be nice to find another word for TOG PAS and use logic for RIGS PA.

But anyway, you can say syllogism maybe, I don't know, or syllogism. I'm not sure. Maybe not.

No, I don't know. We often say reasoning for RIGS PA these days.

[Speaker 3]
That's fine.

[Speaker 1]
In TOG PAS we can say logic. That would be correct. DEN PEN is wrong.

It should be DEN PA PA. DEN LA PA PA. Oh, so presentation.

Yeah, good. Presentations. TSOD PA.

Debating. Arguments. DBYO PA.

Subject. Statement. Statement.

Right, right, right. Yeah, statement. SON CHIN PA.

Ripping out the wrong idea, probably. Yeah, which is, what do you call that? Destructing another person's viewpoint.

Oh, uh... Refutation. Refutation.

Refutation's pretty good. DEN ZHIG. Reason.

Yeah, or sometimes a logical statement. Okay? Reasoning.

Logical statement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. CHING DOR.

I guess it means throwing out somebody else's... Words. Words, yeah.

Objecting words. We don't know what it is yet. Okay.

Objecting words. BDAG CHUNG is a logical device. I went and looked it up for you.

I'll give it to you. Here it is. A false SON CHIN PA.

A false SON CHIN PA. In other words, a limb, which is CHING CHIN LOG PA. Oh, an incorrect answer.

Good, incorrect answer. So BDAG CHUNG means incorrect answer. TSAR CHOS.

TSAR CHOS. Cutting the time? The instance?

TSAR CHOS means to put a stop to somebody. Destroy... I don't know.

Destruction? It means to stop somebody else. Vanquishment?

[Speaker 2]
Annihilation.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. BDAG CHUNG PA. So those are the 16 according to Ngorong Beldung.

I don't think it's useful to go through all their definitions. It would take a couple of classes. Okay.

Here's an interesting piece by a great scholar, Gung Thang. I'm sorry, no, this is another Gung Thang. Gung Thang Lodro Gyatso, yeah.

This is a different person. He tries to expand on them a little bit. So if you're not sure...

He uses DGOS, for example. And he expands on them a little bit. And it's a little helpful.

Okay, so I'm going to leave that for you. Like here, TSIG DOR. What do you call trashing someone's words?

It says NGON PA. They're crazy. Yeah, crazy talk.

Trash words means crazy talk. According to this person. And that's about all.

So there's the 16. It makes a slightly amusing footnote. There's some more notes about it here.

I was trying to establish that the one was good. Okay. All right.

Go. Who's checking is Ben Kramer, I think.

[Speaker 2]
Those are the two you just did, right?

[Speaker 1]
Yep, these are the two I just did. Oh, okay, you finished these two? There's the relevant quotations, okay, Nick?

Oh, okay. Oh, cool. Yeah.

I didn't even look to see that you had already found them. I really wanted to impress you. I don't want to read a book unless I know the quotations, because they're often wrong.

So I never let a quotation go. I always go find it. Like that quotation the other day that even Tsongkhapa said it was from a book, and it was from a different book.

Okay, so anyway, NGON PA NI. Secondly. Oh, I mean, NGON PA NI.

Yeah, good. What was NGON PA NI? I'm sorry.

Oh, well, he was talking about the two books. So NGON PA NI was the first one. was stopping all argument.

And Nipa Ni was the 70 verses on emptiness. Yeah, so now let's talk about the 70 verses on emptiness. Probably showing why it's merely an extension of the root text.

Yeah, what part of the root text? Let's see. Rabja Dumba, the seventh chapter.

And I believe we've already covered that in ACI, right? 70 verses?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry, is it the 70 verses from the 70 verses? Yeah. This would be the best.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, no, no, no.

[Speaker 1]
Rabja here means it's a takeoff from the- In the seventh chapter of Arya Nagarjuna's book, yeah. Of Prajna. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

OK, and in the seventh chapter, which is the closing words of the seventh chapter, here it is. Mi lam je shing yu ma shin. It's like a- A dream.

It's like a- Illusion. It's like the city of the pretos. City of pretos.

Et cetera. Rabja chepa dumpa-o. That ends the seventh chapter, OK?

So I caught that in your quotation for you, OK? Yes, thank you. It is the final words of the seventh chapter.

It's part of the final verse, OK? Like a dream, like an illusion. She sok le la- It should be le, OK?

It'd be more clear, wouldn't it? I mean, you could say la, but it's not very clear. They usually say le.

Yeah. So this is the rest that takes off from that point. And what the point is, kyen jik ne su rang she yi drupa kakpa.

It denies any self-nature of kyen jik ne, like starting, stopping, and staying. Yeah. There's a famous $100 debate about why he messed up the order here.

Oh, really? Starting, stopping, and staying. Does he say ne because he doesn't want people to get depressed or something?

They add ne at the end? Yeah, it's true.

[Speaker 3]
It's true.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, traditionally, they play with this order. It should be kyen ne jik, right? That would make sense time-wise, yeah.

And then they put it purposely out of order. And then it's supposed to jog the student's mind. And the student's supposed to say, why did you put stay at the end, rather?

And they say, look, things don't really stay. They start and they stop. And it's like your life.

You have your birth, your death, and there's a little bit. I went to the gym today. The lady tried to sell me a $45 heart monitor thing.

And she said, and me and Veronica are like, we don't need it. We just want to exercise. And she said, no, no, no.

Did you know that a baby is born with their heartbeat is going 222 beats per second, per minute, or whatever? A minute, yeah. It decreases and decreases until it goes to zero.

Did you know that? Yeah. Oh, really?

And then I'm like, God, she's giving me an impermanence teaching. This thing can tell you when you hit zero. Oh, nice.

There are other signs.

[Speaker 2]
I'd love to tell other people.

[Speaker 1]
I'd love to pay $45 for that. I'll never know either way, with or without this machine. Anyway, that's why May is up today.

RANG BZHIN GYI GRUB PA RGA PA NA. It's denying, yeah. Then the guru says, if starting, stopping, and staying don't exist, why was it LUNG LA'I GSUNGS PA?

Why did he mention them in, why did the Buddha mention them in scripture? Why did Buddha talk about things starting, stopping, and staying? That would seem to be wrong.

MI DANG. And the purpose of this book that he's describing, which is the 70 verses, right? It's a response to that argument.

LEN DU BYED PA. It's a response to that debater. OK, good.

That's the purpose of the 70 verses. Cool. And if I were you, Nick, in my spare time, like while you're waxing your board or something, you went through this conversation already at the beginning of your last transmission.

Not to this extent. We just mentioned it. Yeah, and I'm curious.

I mean, it would be fun to give a graduate student the job of comparing the presentations of the six books in the opening pages of your two books. And then it'd be interesting to see which one was written first and did his ideas change as he got older. Did Gyatso Je's ideas change?

It'd be interesting to compare them. I mean, on this particular thing, all he said at the beginning of the 60 verses is that those two books, 70 verses on emptiness and stopping argument, are extensions of the root text. Yeah, he just lent one line to this.

What do you call it? Utpala maybe knows the word. But when you take a verse out of Christian scripture, for example, and then you expand on it.

[Speaker 2]
Annotation.

[Speaker 1]
You write another book to expand on a short quotation. And then you write a book on that. There's a Christian word for it?

There's a word in Christian commentarial writing. Revelations? There's a word for it.

There's a technical word for doing this. But anyway. I'll have heard it.

You've got one minute. Don't waste it. I'll check you.

TAGAL THUGPE LAM GYI KHORWA LAS BYO BA TSOG BAR DTUNG PA LA RIG PA DUG CHUB PA NI JA CHONG PA'I DRE BU THOG LA YANG THAN CHUNG RANG GZHAN GYIS STONG PA THOG PA DUG PA DANG You, OK, this is your book. Yeah. TAGAL THUGPE LAM GYI KHORWA LAS BYO BA TSOG BAR DTUNG PA LA As far as what teaches things that, the ones that are mainly teaching that freedom from samsara comes from the path of realizing that things are free from extremes.

We've got Rick Paducciuppa, The 60 Verses on Emptiness. And then here's in a line and a half, he summarizes your book purposefully. Chachampe Chewbutok.

So the result of becoming an arhat, achieving that result of becoming an arhat. Even if that's all you want, is to get to nirvana. TEN CHUNG RANG BZHIN GYI MTHONG PA'I THOG You have to realize the emptiness of dependent origination.

Yeah, you're still gonna have to. Even if you're a Hinayana person and all you're interested is in nirvana, the purpose of The 60 Verses is to prove you're still gonna have to see emptiness. Cool.

And we're out of time. Yay, but we finished your book. Expect a quiz on the 16th.

[Speaker 2]
Exegesis, that's it. Yay.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, exegesis, exegesis. Nice. Yeah.

That's good. Other than the Iron Maiden lyrics.

[Speaker 3]
Exit Jesus.

[Speaker 1]
Cool. Geshe Michael, can you assign me something for next time? Oh yeah, let me think about it.

Because it is not automatically the next thing. I've been doing that. The next three lines, the next three paragraphs.

Okay. Okay. They're not that hard.

The first one is a summary of your book, The 60 Verses. Okay. Cool.

All right. It looks fun. Thank you.

[Speaker 3]
Thank you so much.

[Speaker 1]
I love you guys. I'll see you. Don't do any parachuting or anything.

Once you're a mixed nut, you got to take care of your body. No parachuting. Oh, can I do a quick thank you?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Thank you, Geshe.

[Speaker 1]
Just so, thank you, Geshe Michael, of course. And thank you to the afternoon tech team. Francisco, Tatiana, Gina, and Alyssa.

Thank you guys for handling the technical needs. Thank you for the evening classes. We really, really appreciate what you guys are doing.

I know it's a lot of work that we just kind of laid on you and we appreciate you happily taking it on. And this way we can translate. So if you guys are interested in those good seeds, you are certainly doing a huge thing for affording us the ability to watch these videos and make good translations.

I got to also, I don't know if this is going to work. No, I'm trying to pin Gina. You are co-host, right?

I don't, I just lost her.

[Speaker 2]
Hi, Gina.

[Speaker 1]
I hear Tim saying something in the background. He's probably going to get it faster than me. Anyway, Gina Rivera and her team did those unbelievable drawings in the book that came out yesterday, which is one of the great, great books done by this team in the last five years.

And Gina and her team worked many, many, many hours, I think over a year, almost a year and a half. And those drawings are exquisite and beautiful. And I'm so glad we have you, Gina.

I just want to bow. I bow at your lotus feet. And please tell all your team.

Thank you, Gina. Great. You know what?

You guys did such a good job. Take two days off. Thanks, boss.

You too. You too. All right, I will.

Here comes Netflix. Here comes Casey Michaelson. See you in a couple of days.

[Speaker 2]
And the live translators too.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. You're getting thanked after the break. Alex, who's that?

[Speaker 2]
Well, I want to thank them now.

[Speaker 1]
Alex Rivas, who's that beautiful lady next to you, that guapa? Guapa.

[Speaker 3]
Wow. Hi, beautiful lady.

[Speaker 1]
Hi, Priscilla.

[Speaker 3]
Okay. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Bye, everybody. Bye.