Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 73

[Speaker 1]
Oh, that must mean it's time. Welcome, everybody.

[Speaker 3]
I'm so glad to have you here. Welcome for another exciting installment this evening, this morning, this afternoon.

[Speaker 1]
I'm very excited to have my dear friend Utpala standing by ready to give us a class. Utpala, are you ready to go? Uh-oh.

Oh, I bet it's only a moment away. That's okay. Here, let me ping.

Oh, maybe I heard a squeak. No, no Utpala yet? Well, that's okay.

We're gonna have Utpala's class, I believe. And then I do believe that I'm going to host a Q&A. Okay, let's see.

Let me see here. I'll send a message just to be sure. Thanks for being patient with us.

She's here. Oh, she's here. Wonderful.

Cool. Hi, friend. How are you?

Wonderful. I'm excited to get to spend time with you. Oh, that's nice.

It tends to be. I enjoy our time together. So do I.

And I hope that the next 60 minutes are not a disappointment. Nah, we do a nice job together. We'll have an adventure.

Regardless of the level of challenge, we will stretch our brave little brains together. Our brave little brains. I like that.

Are you ready? You know, here we are. Okay, that's good.

I didn't wanna have to- Ready or not, as they say. Good, I'll take it. Go for it.

So I do not have a quiz because my brave little brain, um, you know, it would be foolish for me to try and suggest to anyone that anything that I said in the last class or that I'm gonna say in this class is something that should be retained for very long because we have not had the master translator um, uh, to be here with us on this particular content. But we can talk about at least what I think is going on. So can anyone tell us, you know, generally, what is it that we're discussing at the beginning of this part of the book?

We're talking about a particular being, a particular being who is fond of Nagas. Uh, is, uh, is that word in that being's name? You know, it just might be.

Is it Nagasena? Uh, no. Arjuna of Nagas, yes.

Arya Nagarjuna. Thank you, all of you brilliant women in the chat. Um, okay.

So we're talking about Arya Nagarjuna because we're about to dive into, um, what to take as literal and what to take as figurative from the point of view of the middle way, right? Those, that school of philosophy, as distinct from the mind only school, which we already covered, right? So we talked about Arya Nagarjuna, that he was prophesied by the Buddha, and that he wrote a gazillion billion books on many different topics.

And just when Geshe Michael turned his attention to other things, we got introduced to this idea that perhaps something's not quite up with regards to, uh, a book that is attributed to have been written by Arya Nagarjuna. But K.J.J. appears to be raising this issue. That no, this is not, uh, this particular text.

And the particular text is called, does anyone remember? It's kind of related to Jikme. It's called Nothing to Fear.

So Nothing to Fear is purported by some, K.J.J. says, to be an auto-commentary written by Arya Nagarjuna on his root text on wisdom. Okay. So K.J.J. started talking about, you know, you know, what are you crazy? The way he likes to do. And at last time, those of us who were here, the intrepid practitioners and seekers of knowledge that we are, we started to go deeper into this idea on Nothing to Fear. And we said that one of the problems with Nothing to Fear is that it contains something that would raise its authorship, that would raise the question of who authored it.

Because this book quotes somebody. And does anyone remember what Nothing to Fear quotes that would then raise a question? Wait a minute, who wrote this?

Well, so they say that Arya Nagarjuna wrote it, but Nothing to Fear, it does quote Arya Nagarjuna, of course. That's why some people consider it an auto-commentary. Look at this, someone is responding in Tibetan correctly.

Kalejikme, Kalejikme. And this isn't well known, but not quite, almost correctly. Thank you, Venerable Chunsam.

So Kalejikme is the book Nothing to Fear. That's its title. But at the beginning, it quotes another book, Good Morning, and Good Evening, and Good Afternoon.

I forgot to say, it doesn't quote that, no. Because that would really call it into question because that's what I say, and I lived a long, long time after Arya Nagarjuna. Okay, but in the same kind of way, this book quotes a book called The 400 Verses.

Does anyone remember who wrote the book called The 400 Verses? Yes, Aryadeva. And Aryadeva was whom to Arya Nagarjuna?

His teacher? Oh no, his student. Oh, how often do we see in the world where teachers are quoting their students when explaining something they themselves wrote?

No, we don't see that. So that's the first problem that KJJ brings to our attention. But someone comes along and says, well, you know, that can't be because somebody said it was an auto-commentary.

And I mean, what do we say when someone says, well, when so-and-so says, I mean, what do we think Jason Capa did when somebody says, so-and-so said? I mean, he looked into it, and he said, you know, no. Well, no, not so-and-so like Kachik.

No, this was a particular so-and-so. This so-and-so, his name was Avalokitevrata. And I don't know if that was a person of considered wise, or I really don't know.

I don't know this person. Does anyone in the room know this person, Avalokitevrata? So, I mean, at least we know that someone thinks that they're worth listening to because they raised the question.

Avalokitevrata says that it's an auto-commentary. So they must have thought that, oh, people listen to him. But K.J.J. responds and says, anyone who suspects that the omniscient Lord, meaning Jason Capa, didn't consider that commentary is making themselves understood to be an utter fool. So, okay, that's what K.J.J. says. So I don't know Avalokitevrata, but K.J.J. says, even though his commentary says that, apparently Jason Capa took a look at it and said, no, that doesn't mean that it is an auto-commentary. So, but he says also, not just because Jason Capa says so.

He says, number one, it would have the problem of a teacher quoting his student, which just isn't done, right? And then it would have another problem. Does anyone remember the other problem that K.J.J. talked about? Yeah, it's hard to remember things. He says, the next problem is that the commentaries of Buddhapalita, Chandrakirti, and Bhavaviveka, the commentaries that those three scholars wrote on, Arya Nagarjuna's root text on wisdom, that somehow they don't jive perfectly with nothing to fear. So if nothing to fear had been written by Arya Nagarjuna, those three scholars, whom everyone knows to be quite brilliant and thorough, they would have mentioned these problems.

They would have said, well, even though Arya Nagarjuna says X, in nothing to fear, I think it's Y. And here's why I think it's this way and not the way that Arya Nagarjuna talked about in nothing to fear. Does that make sense?

I'm extrapolating, I'm making all that up because all it says is that those three commentaries by those three scholars would have pointed out inconsistencies. I've made up this story, like what could those inconsistencies possibly be that they would be forced to talk about? Like that's all I can surmise, not having read any of those commentaries, any of the three or nothing to fear.

I mean, I've only received teachings a couple of times on the root text, you know, root texts on wisdom. So do I understand that thoroughly enough to talk about it? No, much less what anyone else says about it.

So this is why I feel like, I don't know, those of you, there may be two people in the room who understand this metaphor, but for me, it's like climbing on the sharp end of a knife or the sharp end of the rope. I'm climbing and the sharp end of the rope is where no one has put in those little protection things that you can hook into as you're climbing up a mountainside. So if you fall without any of those protections, you're gonna go down.

So that's what I feel like I'm doing. That's a great example. Isn't it?

[Speaker 3]
Yes, and I believe you're quite experienced on doing that, actually climbing mountains like that.

[Speaker 1]
Well, and I have fallen like that as well and hit my head against the rock multiple times down a chimney, but luckily I had a helmet on. And you guys are my helmet in this particular situation. Okay, so now we're going to get into, and I think let's just pick up and repeat a little bit of what we did last time in the text.

And I'll try to find the exact place. 469, okay. Interlude 519, interlude 519.

Oh my goodness, used in 714 class. Let's see if this is the right one. Oh, I don't think that's the right one because what I wanted to share is not showing up highlighted in green.

So I'm stopping that share. I'm sorry, I'm share impaired. I'm gonna share that one in a minute or two after we do what we did last time.

Okay, I feel really old when I can't share properly, but that's okay, because you know, I am really old. Okay, there, do you see this 469?

[Speaker 3]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Am I in the right place? Yay, okay, good. Oh gosh, you know, before we go any further, let's just take like 60 seconds and just think about what your motivation is for being here with the mixed nuts, wrestling with these ideas.

Wrestling in the sense of chewing them and trying to understand what they mean and how we can apply them to our lives. Are we here just to watch Apollo fail? No, no, no, I hope not.

I hope there's some higher purpose. I hope there's some purpose that will be of benefit to many beings. Let's just think about that purpose for a moment so that even if we flail around, we'll at least have the motivation to benefit as many beings in the highest way as possible.

Okay, thank you. Now, I think there must be someone in the room who would like to read this 469. Christina Casca, would you like to start us off?

Sure, I would be honored.

[Speaker 3]
Yay. Okay, let's see. Perna Drelpa Derni Chöjö Kikabsungangpa Mede Kewa Mpechir Sheköne Detagjupala Taglemayin Shenlemin Nilemayin Gyümemin Gyöpo Gangtag Gangnayang Kewa Namyang Yöpamayin Mpechir Sheköte Beautiful, thank you so much.

[Speaker 1]
So anyone know this word here? One of the first phrases I became familiar with. Is that well now?

No, it's actually for example. Yes, thank you, Inna. Perna, for example, Drelpa, commentary, Derni, in that, in that commentary, Ni, hey, to the left of this, that's what we're talking about.

In that commentary, Chöjö, Chöjö. That's the offerings or exactly verses of offerings. Yes, the verses of homage.

Thank you, Venerable Chönzang. Kapsu.

[Speaker 3]
That context.

[Speaker 1]
In that context, yeah, but I think it does mean like in those verses, right? That kap doesn't necessarily have to be a particular, well, it is a particular, but it doesn't have to mean situation. It can be a place.

Kappa. Kappa.

[Speaker 3]
Stopping.

[Speaker 1]
Stopping. There isn't any of that. There is no stopping.

Tekewa. Let's just do kewa. Oh, there it is.

Arising, says Ina in the chat. Yes, arising. Me, mepa.

Well, there ain't any of that. There's no arising. So there's no, there's no stopping.

There's no arising. And this chir means because. So there's no stopping because there's no arising.

And we have a quote. Shit. Then Kedrpje says, okay.

So what we have so far. Kedrpje says, for example, in that commentary, placed in the verses of homage, there is the quote. There is no stopping because there's no arising.

Deta drupala. And then to prove that reason, then he makes, he does another, there's another quote in that commentary. And remember the commentary we're talking about is nothing to fear, right?

That's the one he's got a problem with. Okay. Dak le mayin shen le min.

Ni le mayin gyu min min. Ngopo khanda khang na yang. Kye wa na myong gyu pa min.

Gyu pa mayin. So we start off here where like things don't, it doesn't arise, not from self. That's what that means, right?

Dak le mayin, not from self. Not from something other. Shen le min, not from other.

Ni le mayin, not from the two. Gyu min, not without a cause. We have those two negatives there together.

Lucky us, not without a gyu, a cause. Ngopo, things, khanda khang na yang. I translated this as whatever or wherever.

Khang is one of those words that can have many different meanings depending on the context. And hopefully you will get a brilliant clarification from the master translator as to how this can be better translated. Kye wa, we had that right above, right?

Arise, yeah. Nam or yang gyu pa mayin. You know, I don't know.

I really don't know how that goes. Anyone wanna give a good, like what I put here is the translation. It doesn't talk about all those words.

Yang gyu pa mayin. Never ever, that's what it is. Never ever arise.

Maybe this is a phrase. Nam yang gyu pa mayin. Never ever.

Yeah, yeah, none whatsoever. None whatsoever. There is no arisal going on.

No starting going on whatsoever. Okay, so KJFJ says, okay, you want me to talk more about what problems there are with saying that Arya Nagarjuna wrote nothing to fear? Well, let me give you an example.

In that commentary, in the verses of homage, there's the quote. There's no stopping because there's no arising. And then to prove that, the reason of that, it quotes because things whatever or wherever never ever arise from self, from other, from both or without cause.

Like, okay, so right on that, on the face of it, there doesn't seem to be a problem there, right? This phrase, ka pa me de ke wa me pa, oh, me be gyur, sorry, appears, I mean, I don't know where that came from. I don't know where nothing to fear took that from.

It, this phrase is found in nothing to fear, but otherwise I don't know where this exact precise phrase comes from. But this, this is in root text on wisdom. We found it there.

Like, okay. Now, let me ask you this. Do these words prove that there is no stopping because there is no arising?

Does saying that because things, nothing, any, whatever it is, never ever arises from itself, from other things, from both itself and from other things or from neither itself or from other things, does saying that prove that there's no stopping? Is anyone convinced? Is everyone convinced?

Am I the only one that doesn't see why?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, I don't see it either.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, good. It's you and me, Oscar. Oscar, if I'm wrong, at least I have a friend.

[Speaker 3]
I was thinking that maybe the last part, or without cause, might refer to no stopping.

[Speaker 2]
But yeah, I'm just trying to, you know, force it a little bit.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. But we accept it in general because it's already been proven to us elsewhere that everything that is caused stops. And if there was no causing going on, no causal relationship going on between any two things, then there could be no stopping going on.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. So we accept that. Okay, cool.

Venerable Shunzun, would you like to read this, please?

[Speaker 3]
Okay. Where? At the top.

Deitak. Deitak chupala noponam kirang shinni kenlah sopla yunmayin. Yunmayin.

Shepe datki mepa chukla datki nopo yinma minhap na. Chinngi nopo yunmayin. Shepe shenki mepa bat wad chupsheng.

Deni ki nila ke baang mepa chupa shene.

[Speaker 1]
Great, thank you. And I think I talked about this last time that I kind of like, when I approach this, because I'm a, you know, I'm a very, even though I've been doing this, trying to learn this for seven years, I'm still beginning to be a beginner. And so like, I break things up like, okay, what comes before the knee is what we're gonna be talking about.

And then I look for the connecting words or other words that indicate some sort of a breaking thought like, oh, mayin, there's a verb. Okay, cool. She, okay, that indicates a quote.

Great. Ana, oh, that's like when or if. Okay, so that indicates there's this clause that comes before it.

Mayin, okay. Not, oh, there's she again. Oh, there's another quote.

Okay, cool. Ching, oh, great, that's a connective word. And, usually, could be or, but probably and.

And yeah, that helps me sort of break it down. So starting off here, we got all this before the knee. And this part sort of hangs together well.

Deitak trupala, to prove that reason, right? So in the previous verse up here, this quote was given to prove this. And now to prove this, then we're moving on.

To prove that reason, we got another quote coming up. Ngopo nangkirangshini, so this is going to. The true nature of all things.

Yeah, right. Rangshin, the self-nature of things, related to the self-nature of things. Khen la sok la yot mayin.

The true nature of all things, mayin, yot mayin. Good to know. Yeah, and it doesn't exist in their khen la sok, in their, oh, go back, yeah, yeah, yeah.

In their causal conditions. Conditions. And such.

So, and such. Okay, so somehow, a true nature not existing in causal conditions proves, because things, whatever or wherever, never ever arise from self, from other, from both or without causes. Which proves there's no stopping.

Okay, oh, no, I'm sorry. To prove there is no arising from self, because what came after the quotation marker here, is dak kye me, me par dru padla. So, this proves, dru, no arising from self, no arising kye me par dak, from self.

There's no, that's what this quote proves. There's no arising from self, because the true nature of all things does not exist in their causal conditions and such. Okay, then next, nothing to fear.

Dak kye ngo po yu min na. Dak kye ngo po yu min na. There is no.

Shen gye ngo po yu ma yin. There is no arising from other. Did I forget this?

[Speaker 3]
You have it, and it quotes these lines to prove there is no arising from other.

[Speaker 1]
Dak kye ngo po yu min na. How much did I forget this? If there isn't.

I know, if there is no self-existence. A self to things.

[Speaker 3]
Well, you have it, if there is no self-existence.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, okay. Shen gye ngo po yu ma yin. Oh, sorry, that's here.

Yeah. If there is no self-existence. Shen gye ngo po yu ma yin.

There is no. No other existence. Other existence.

Okay, that makes sense. How could you have another other existence if that other existence didn't have a self-existence? Couldn't happen.

Right? If no self-existence, no other existence. Okay, cool.

And that proves that there's no arising from other. Okay, cool. Deng ni kye, ni ka, the two of these prove, or we know the two of these are gonna do something.

Ni ka le, from both. Kye wo ong le par dru par she ne. They're explained as proving that there is as well, as well, no arising from ni ka, from both.

Okay, so far so good, right? This next one is hard. And one of the reasons it's hard, there are multiple reasons that I found this challenging, but one of the reasons is that there's this sort of tradition in some people's writing that when they quote another work, they'll just quote the beginning of it, and they'll assume that you know the rest of what that verse says.

So in this particular, in this section right here, it happens three times where he says, oh, you know, when it quotes the four lines that begin with X, it means this. Oh, and then when it quotes the first two lines that start with Y, it's doing this. And then it does something really nasty.

He says, KWJ, we love you. You weren't being purposefully nasty. It's just I don't, a clear view of all the commentaries.

It says, she ma ni. The last two. And without saying beginning with or ending with, he just says the last two.

And it's like, oh my goodness, what last two is he talking about? I don't know. And I'll show you why I don't know.

We're gonna have to go to my other document that I've been playing with. And I'm just sort of sharing my thought process because I don't want, you know, content. Obviously, I'm not sure about any of this.

So I'll just share my process. Okay, so he starts off that, oh, let's be bigger word. Thank you.

Okay, we're just gonna break it down. So the next, oh, let's see, it starts off. Oh, did I miss the first?

I did. I missed the first part. Let me just quickly copy it in there because it's important.

That's the first part. Oh, do we wanna read this or do we just wanna read the sections? Any votes?

Does it matter? Up to you. Read it.

Read it. Someone says read it. So we will read it.

If I can find it again, here's the danger. There it is. Okay, who was it who said read it so emphatically?

Me. Okay, you are the one who gets to read it. Uh-oh.

The whole thing? Yes. Okay, I'll try.

Dave? Oh, you're the one who didn't want it broken up. That, you know.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, no, I didn't realize that. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, what should I do? Read the whole thing?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Tela. Tela. Tsopa.

Tsopa. Tsopa. Fongwei.

Tsopa. Tiannam. Shi.

Shi. Shi. Te.

Tetangne. Chetsok. Kangpa.

[Speaker 2]
Shitang. Deilentu. Ch altered.

Lempame.

[Speaker 1]
Lempame? Lempame. Cheksok.

Kangpa. Cheksok. Cheksok.

Kangapa. a tongue, pony, key, ken, she, po, day, nga, po, la, chay, pay, cha, wa, la, ken, den, pa, tang, mi, den, pa, kak, ching, ka, yin, pa, tang, ching, ma, ni, key, ken, la, ang, cha, wa, den, pa, tang, mi, den, pa, tang, ni, ka, yin, pa, tang, ni, ka, men, pa, kak, par, chay, pa, sok, song, kong, op, key, chok, ko, ri, chay, sok, jo, no, blep, jo, oh, jo, pa, shin, sun, pa, tang, chok, sen, yang, mi, jo, wa. Here you would have the prenasal, min, jo, wa. Uh, min, jo, wa, ta, po, de.

Very well done. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay. I mean, I've got an attempt, I've got an attempted translation here, but um, I do want to, like, share for some reason, um, why it was a challenge. But for some reason, the challenge can be just finding the darn thing I want to share.

There is the darn thing. Okay. So, it starts off with, de la, se pa, pong wei, se pa.

So, um, uh, uh, de la, to it, right? Se pa, pong wei, se pa. So, se pa, uh, it's arguments, right?

I'm sorry, I clobbered someone else who's speaking. You got it. Great.

Okay, cool. And what are we going to do with, with that argument? We're going to pong wei it.

[Speaker 3]
Smash it.

[Speaker 1]
Destroy it. We're going to smash it. We're going to dispel arguments to it.

Okay. How are we going to do that? Um, um, the next words are, uh, uh, we go along and, oh, then we see this che.

Then I see this che, which is another, uh, indicator for a quotation mark. Usually we see she. Usually we see she, like this, but sometimes we see che.

It means the same thing. It indicates a quotation. So, it's like, okay, so how are we dispelling?

I don't know quite yet, but this quote is going to have something to do with it. Qian nam she de gyu tang ni. It's like, okay, cool.

That quote, sok. And the rest, okay, something's happening here. Kang pa she.

Oh, kang pa she. The four lines, the four lines beginning with Qian nam she de gyu tang ni. Okay, great.

So, Qian nam she de gyu tang ni. That means, uh, these are, I don't know if you remember, but we are talking about, uh, causal conditions or conditions. And she, oh, there's four of them.

Oh, four causal conditions. They're just telling us, okay, take a breath, colon, gyu, tang, dot, dot, dot, causal. There's four kinds of causal conditions or four kinds of conditions, sorry, causal.

And, and so if we don't know the rest of the four lines, we don't know what the rest of it is. So, okay, cool. We go, I go to nothing to fear.

I find that line. Thank goodness. It's there exactly as KJJ said it was.

Then, then to make triple sure I go to root text on wisdom. And yes, there is that line in Arya Nagarjuna's root text on wisdom. So cool.

So I pull the four lines. So the four lines are, oh, there are four conditions. Causal, mikpa, observed object, tang, ni, tema, tak.

Uh, this means, uh, right after that. So immediately subsequent pause, actually, I think it means immediately proceeding that the cause itself is immediately proceeding. It's causing what comes right after it.

I think that's the way it works.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah. I think so.

[Speaker 1]
Uh, then we have takpo, uh, dominant, dominant cause all this together. Uh, I translate it as accordingly. Okay.

Cool. So those four lines, uh, which is just telling us the four causes. And I actually got to cheat a little bit because earlier in the text, we created a footnote that quoted the great Dickey, uh, the great Dickey, the great Dickey, the great Dickey, the great Dickey, which listed the four conditions and golly, if they don't match these.

So that's cool. So maybe I'll go back and change that footnote to say, oh, later on in the text, we'll, um, we'll use Arya Nagarjuna as, as the source for the four and not the great dictionary. Okay.

Anyway. Okay. So we got the four and this is supposed to be this quote.

These four lines are supposed to somehow be dispelling arguments. I don't know what arguments they're dispelling. Okay.

We will continue, continue marching on, but, uh, Oh, the next words are in answer to that, like, okay, great. In answer to the four kinds of conditions, we've got something going on. Oh, here's another chain.

So, okay. Okay, great. We got the first two lines of this quotation that begins with the first two lines that begin with, there is no Jawa action that Denpa possesses or has, uh, Tang Denpa, sorry, possesses or has a kin, a causal condition.

There is no action that possesses a causal condition. And then some lines after that, well, golly, but you know, I didn't find that exact quotation anywhere in the ACIP database. Those words don't appear anywhere, but one other place.

And that is Choney Lama in his book called Ship on the Sea of Emptiness, which is also a commentary on Arya Nagarjuna's root text on wisdom. So that's kind of comforting. And when I went to look at that text, Oh, it's talking about, you know, same kind of thing.

Okay. That's cool. So maybe there was another, what version of the Tengyur in existence, another version of Arya Nagarjuna's root text on wisdom that included this line that is exactly like that.

Um, what's interesting is that nothing to fear does not have it that way. The commentary that K.J. is talking about, right. As, as, you know, pointing out the different issues that he sees, but anyway, I found what could be, uh, at least I found how they're presented in these, in the two texts we're talking about nothing to fear and root text on wisdom.

And they are different from each other. So not only different from what K.J quoted, but the two don't match. Who sees the difference between Yep.

We got a ma here. We got a pa here, which is a pretty problematic difference. Yeah.

Right. So, but K.J says he uses the negative. There is no action that has a condition.

So it would seem that maybe this is a mistake in carving.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I tried to look in our, the second edition of the tenure that we found, but, um, all of a sudden my gopher wouldn't connect with the database. And so I wasn't able to find it. But also it's sort of like not categorized at all.

It's not organized at all. Like it is in the ACI, like the version that we have in the ACIP database where I can just go and find here's the text, right. I can just pull up one file, just that text in it.

No, it's like a file with 560 pages in it of multiple texts in there where, where one starts and one ends. I don't know. And it's like, you know, maybe what I should do is spend the two weeks, split this up.

Let's match this. So at least we can pull files. We find a file and we've got a question about something in the ACIP database.

We could at least easily find the same, the same text from this different edition anyway. So we've got nothing to fear saying actions. They don't have, they don't have causal conditions.

And then the second line is there are, there are no conditions. There are no conditions that don't possess actions. So if actions are not in possession of conditions and there are no conditions that don't possess actions.

Okay. And then what, what are those lines going to do? Oh, darn it.

We're out of time. But I mean, the confusion for me continues on. And in, in just in this one here where he says the last two lines, just as an interesting thing to share, nothing to fear in that commentary.

It takes a pairs of, of lines in Sanskrit, right? And then, which is four lines in Western Chinese. So it, it provides a commentary on each pair of Sanskrit lines.

Choney Lama in Ship on the Sea of Emptiness at this very point, he doesn't take just a pair of Sanskrit lines as a verse. He takes the next pair as well, because as it turns out the ending of the first pair of Sanskrit lines, it is like a question and it just doesn't make sense. These two lines, if we were to consider these two lines as the last two lines, it wouldn't make sense because it doesn't really say anything.

It's like, it's stopping in the middle of a thought. If we go Choney Lama's way and we look at the next two lines, then, oh, then we're reaching something that may make some sense. But we'll see if we even get this far when, when our dear Geshe Michael Roach next works with us on this text.

Yeah. Wasn't that fun?

[Speaker 3]
Lots of fun. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
So now what are we going to talk about? We've got 12 minutes and we should use them wisely to talk about how it is we can take what came before in the previous 60 minutes and apply it to our life. How can this benefit us in our practice?

How does this bring us closer to reaching our goals? Should we think that things don't have causes? Should we think that things don't have causes?

Is that going to help you reach your goal? It doesn't feel like it. Yeah, it doesn't feel like it to me either.

It seems like he was denying that. Can I use causes? I'm sorry?

Can I use causes? Please? Use causes.

But things don't come from causes? Who said that things don't come from causes? I think he said they don't come from causes.

Right? They said they, I think, did he not say that things don't come from any of the four types of causes? He just said there are four types of causes.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And he said that, and we don't know exactly why he said there are four. Mm-hmm. I mean, I would have to be able to, you know, read Tibetan well, just reading it, and be able to look at the four texts, like Nothing to Fear, Root Text on Wisdom, Choney Lama's Ship on the Sea of Emptiness, and some other books, and just have them all out there and go, oh, yeah, okay, here's the debate that's going on.

You know, I'll read five paragraphs in this book, and that book, and the other book, which I'm not there. So I don't know exactly what he's talking about. But yeah, if things didn't have a cause, then we should just all go to the beach, I guess.

And yet, he seems to think that there's some value in explaining things to us, which sort of makes you wonder if he thinks that understanding could cause something. It does, doesn't it? It does.

I mean, he started this by saying there's no stopping because there is no arising. Mm-hmm. Nothing stops because nothing starts.

Mm-hmm. Can that help me make dinner? Can that help me start dinner later tonight?

Probably not. Probably not. Well, I don't know.

But it will help you start dinner in the future if you, you know, we know the punchline. Um, they don't start from themselves, self-existently from themselves, self-existently from other things, not from both, and not from neither. So if we remember, while we're not just being the, the conductor of the coming together of all the different parts of our dinner, you know, we're not just like, I don't know, playing in front of them and they just come together magically, but that by creating the seeds of adding this to that and mixing and then offering to our family and they then take it and become nourished, then, oh, then we can be creating dinner in the future. Um, does, uh, I think Dennis has something he, he hopes to share.

Go for it. Yeah. Well, thank you, Paula.

Um, I really liked, I really liked this, like, part about rising in the text. And so that takes me, like dinner, I don't, I don't know, rising is a big word in meditation. Like, um, when we entertain ideas that take us away from what we were hoping to do in meditation.

And so, you know, um, asparagus doesn't always come up, you know, as part of the meal plan. Like it should. Um, the things that like really arise in meditation are like, you know, for me, they aren't, it isn't what I'm making for dinner because that's too far away in the day, but it's more like the things that plagued me during the day are what arises.

And so, um, for me to think that, well, is that coming from the self or it is like an examination is that coming from, um, the other, like the problem or the object is an examination. Is it coming without cause? Right.

So it's like these three things, I feel like are something that the author wants us to crunch on so that we can prove to ourselves later that they're all coming from causes. Right. And then the stopping, the arising and the falling.

So I feel like it's, it's more about the, the context, right? Like the, the context is, um, in like a meditation or in a place where we're trying to be more like this being rather than me and everyday life, you know, with objects that aren't necessarily, um, they're just not, they're not, it's not like, it's not relevant for me. Like it doesn't, it doesn't help me like in meditation to think of something so concrete because, um, I feel like there's that, then there's that falling where, um, oh, well, let's just look at something else, examine something else, you know?

So that's interesting. So, so for you, um, before you bring something into quote unquote real life, as opposed to meditation experience, um, you want to first look at it on the cushion in meditation. Ideally, I want to be able to look at it more lightly.

Yeah. Cool. And then I guess for the sake of the other, that would be the arising that is, I'm not in control of it.

It's coming up, right? It keeps coming up. So that's a karmic, that's a karmic seed too.

And so understanding that's not coming from self either, right? So where is it coming? Maybe it's a problem.

I want to get rid of it. So how am I going to get rid of it if I think it's coming from I think it's coming from out there or without a cause, right? So I think that the self in this case and the other in this case would, is related to the thing that's arising.

So, um, let's say the thing that's arising is some sort of problem. Does the problem arise from itself? He's asking, does the problem arise from something outside, something that is other than the problem?

Yeah. From both of those together? Well, that would be weird.

Both from itself and from other things and or from neither of those things, which there is nothing other than those two things from the problem itself and everything other than the problem. So it has to be like you were saying, um, I think what, what I heard you saying earlier is that in meditation, we look to see, oh, these are the four possible ways that, that things could be happening. Something is arising from itself.

Something is arising from something other, something is arising from both or something is arising from neither. Without cause.

[Speaker 3]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Without cause. Yeah. Yeah.

Those are the only four possibilities. Seems like. And the reason I want to make that distinction about what self is relating to is that, you know, because you know, we don't want to say that, oh, it's not coming from me.

I got nothing to do with it. I got nothing to do with problems.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
From myself.

[Speaker 3]
That's part of the examination of what self is it coming from. So maybe that's a good place to keep digging.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. Itself.

Is it coming from itself coming from something other than it? Well, do we, um, do we have a, a representative of the Peachtree World News standing by? Oh, look, we do.

We have a thumb directed skyward. Uh, highly encouraging. Yay.

Uh, Peachtree World News. The, the floor is yours. We will then.

Oh, but one moment, if I could just take 30 seconds and like, okay. So we finished discussing these topics in a way and how we can apply them in our lives. So please just, let's just direct the energy of our conversation, of our thinking about these things towards reaching our goal.

Let's make this, what we've done here today, what we, what they call a complete karma. Okay. Thanks.

Thank you. Okay. Peachtree World News.

Now Peachtree World News. Hello, Worldview Network. This is Sivan standing in for the legendary Juan Hasso.

You will see in a moment, Marina, please. Can we get the slides going? What's going on?

I've got some big shoes to fill, but very small feet. So please bear with me. Today is Monday, July 14th, 2025.

Oh, and here's Juan Hasso on an airplane. How sweet is this face? Just a little proof that I didn't hijack the program.

He handed it over wishfully. And in our news today, the team that was in Vietnam sharing a very exciting program is on their way back to the United States now. And they said it was super, super fun and want to extend deep thanks to Mr. Bin, Mrs. Yumi, here they are at the airport being welcomed warmly. Mr. Bin, Mrs. Yumi, Mr. Khoi, Ms. Nguyen, Mr. Tam, Mr. Thuy, and Mr. Seiji, and everyone else who made this beautiful event possible. And most especially, of course, to Geshe Michael Roach and John Foley for the amazing sessions and the wisdom. They say they will share more videos about the last day that I guess was extra exciting and the event in general coming up soon.

Next slide, please. In this Vietnam event, there was a G-Box program that was given. And I guess it was very exciting and they've made it available for everybody to see.

That QR code will take you to the YouTube recordings. And I am going to put it in the chat as a link. Maybe I'm not.

Yes, I am. So Mr. Bin was very pleased by these G-Box by this G-Box program, and he made it a video to show us. And Marina, can you show that to us, please?

[Speaker 3]
Sending regards with Mr. Bin. Super successful event.

[Speaker 2]
It's going super, super well. And we are just halfway through. Thank you for G-Box to come to Vietnam.

Vietnamese people love it. And we think we can apply in our life for better life and achieve our success. Thank you, Juan.

Thank you, team, to bring G-Box in Vietnam. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

And maybe hopefully we see you again next year. Sure. You should come.

Yes. Everybody else in G-Box, please come to Vietnam. We are welcome all of you.

[Speaker 3]
How about that enthusiasm? So on the subject of the great books, oral classic, oral commentary series, Bill and Ena and Bill McMichael just had their first session yesterday, I think with Venerable Utpala about the emptiness meditations and using the principles of emptiness meditations for gaining financial freedom.

[Speaker 1]
What a topic. The recordings will be available on YouTube soon. I'm not sure if that QR code is for registration or for the recordings, but I know that the sessions will continue on July 27th and there will be more information to come on that as we keep going.

Hopefully those sessions are well appreciated, well attended. And if you haven't been to the financial freedoms meditation sessions for yourself or to help others, you should attend. I have so enjoyed the G-Box series in general, hearing from these translators and these experienced teachers coming together to make a unique program.

It's a really beautiful merger that brings so much deep wisdom together in a beautifully accessible way. So that one's that. And then back to the theme of Vietnam.

If you haven't heard about it or if you have, there is a really cool thing going on that takes another lifestyle element and merges it with our wisdom. And this is the carrots and potatoes show that I know is a vision of Geshe Michael's that was brought into life in a really beautiful way. They share recipes from all over the world, along with interviews and along with wisdom segments throughout each chapter.

It's a video series that I believe is produced in a really high quality. I signed up for it and I hope you do too. This latest episode is about a super traditional, super classic Vietnamese dish that I believe is pronounced pho.

It's a delicious soup and I've had it at restaurants before. I haven't had a chance to make it myself yet, but I know the email is in my inbox and I can't wait to try it soon. If anybody wants to come over for dinner to give me an excuse to make it, let's do it.

This QR code will take you to register or sign up for the project, especially if you need healthy food seeds or healthy living seeds and or the people in your life need those. So it's a super, super wise way to plant seeds if you have these right ideas in mind and also as beautiful Upala just reminded us, dedicate these seeds to a good cause. And next on the news, we have, yes, this event with John Brady, Connie O'Brien, along with Kelly and Jean, who are going to be teaching, giving an event in the glorious, lushly green Chiang Mai, Thailand.

They will be giving a foundation course wisdom as well as tuning into the teachings that are being given live by Geshe Michael and others in Mexico. So it's a hybrid event, very exciting. Registration is still open.

Those QR codes will get you there. A cool thing to do at this time. And speaking of attending the teachings that Geshe Michael's giving, while not being there, Jasmine is producing a parallel simultaneous hybrid event also in Asia.

Marina, will you pass to the next slide, please? And maybe in the next slide or two from there. Anyway, we can go back to one more and I'll talk about that with Don and Connie.

Oh, there's the signing up for the hybrid event in Asia. Looks like it's happening in Japan and they will be broadcasting and participating simultaneously to the teachings that are happening in Mexico. Join that if you're in Asia.

Live event, be in a group of practitioners, have discussions. It'll be wonderful. Okay, now ready to go.

Thank you, Marina, for being patient with me. John and Connie. So John and Connie are also giving a really cool talk tomorrow morning, USA time, tomorrow morning, Arizona time.

That is a introductory presentation, probably super juicy, knowing who these two are and what they have to say about wisdom teachings and happiness and living a life in the teachings. And this is a precursor to the Ripples of Light event that sounds like it's going to be absolutely extraordinary. It will be teachings for 24 hours, meditations for 24 hours, by the sound of what Earl shared recently, that will be hosted by practitioners all over the world in different time zones all over the world, so that it will, it seems like it's going to create this beautiful mass of really cool energy that's going to wrap the globe and be a beautiful celebration of the teachings of Geshe Michael, of the results of the teachings.

[Speaker 3]
And tomorrow John and Connie will be giving an intro on that.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, moving right along. What do you have next, Marina? I'll go with you.

That's a QR code for tomorrow. That's Jasmine. Here we have, this is what's going on in Mexico.

Guys, I am so excited for what's going on in Mexico. Tim is going to lead off the event with an open talk. That's the registration for that event.

Looks like it's going to be broadcast all over the world, so you can see it too, even if you don't come to Mexico. And then after that, that'll be on Friday, July 18th, and then just after Tim's talk will be Geshe Michael's talk. It's going to be an open teaching for anybody who wants to participate, and the kickoff event of a beautiful series of teachings that will take place in Mexico.

Like I said, Mexico has a near and dear place in my heart. I have so much fun with that group, and I try never to miss an event with them, because they just they know how to do it in another way. Oh look, here's a photo where, I don't know how it happened, but I got to be part of the Mexican group.

I made it into the photo. I don't know if you can find me in there, squeezed between Alexa and Alex in the back row, but they included me. I love them so, so, so, so much, and you know, I haven't been around for very long, but the Mexicans, they just throw their arms around you and make you feel like family, and it's just such a fun, loving time to be with them.

So I really recommend that if you're not already signed up for that event, you should come, but I have someone else here who is going to tell you even more about that event, and to join us, and here she is. Miss Paulina, are you here?

[Speaker 2]
I am here. Thank you, Siobhan. You almost made me cry.

I'm so emotional before the retreat, and it's true, you never miss the retreat in Mexico, and when I saw your name in the registration list, I was like, yes, of course, Siobhan is coming again.

[Speaker 1]
So Paulina, I was just hoping that you were going to give a yoga class, and so I could soak my yoga mat in tears, because you always do something that makes me so, makes my heart be so open, and so happy. I thank you. Are you teaching?

No. Someone wonderful will teach, I know.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, yes, we had amazing yoga teachers. We have a special dance class, and it's just going to be very beautiful and magical, and you know, last year, when we began thinking about the name for this retreat, we chose to call it wisdom in the times of chaos, and at that time, we had no idea just how chaotic the world will become, or at least in my perception, right? So that's why I'm here for our final reminder before the event in Mexico.

It begins this week, this Friday, and we simply want you to start opening and preparing your heart to Geshe Michael's beautiful and powerful teachings, and you know, also a reminder to you and to myself that these upcoming retreats are the preparation for the advanced teachings that Geshe Michael himself will be sharing with us next year, but you know, Siobhan, and I think you notice it, or many people notice it, that during the last retreat in Atayaman Mountain in April, he already started teaching some of these advanced classes, and he said there is no time to lose. We need to start now, because these teachings work best in difficult and chaos times. So basically, yes, please come.

I know you will come, and I like to think of it as the second turning of the advanced teachings wheel with Geshe-la, so we must have amazing, good seeds to be alive to hear his Diamond Way teachings.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, yes, yes, dedicating these seeds to finding my passport so I can get on that flight and be there.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you. I can't wait to hug you very soon. Thank you, Siobhan.

See you all there, and online, of course, but by this time, whatever in person or online, probably online. See you all there.

[Speaker 1]
Thanks, everyone. Have a great class. Thank you so much, Siobhan.

Cool. Well, everybody.