Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 64

[Speaker 1]
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Excuse me for a moment. I hope everybody's well.

Welcome to Xuanzang's Tower. We have another exciting day of deep, powerful learning for you. Utpala is here to guide us through her exciting text, Interlude on Emptiness, and Geshe Michael, are you standing by?

I'm assuming they're getting set up. Yes, I'm here. Hello, Nicholas.

Hello, sir. How are you? The question is, what color is your swimming trunks today?

Nobody wants to know, trust me. I'll leave it to the imagination. But I'll be there soon, so no need for swimming trunks in the Arizona ocean.

Yeah, that's true. I think we're going to leave tomorrow morning, maybe. I'm sure you have all your guitar parts learned very well.

Oh, well, I'm working on it. I bought a new tuner. Oh, that's a good sign.

You're serious. Exactly. Are you ready with the homework, Utpala?

Sir, good morning. All right. Good morning.

Welcome to Xuanzang's Tower. Welcome to Xuanzang's Tower, and welcome to another wonderful quiz on the Interlude on Emptiness. So it's kind of a good way to start if you see that the question is much longer than the answers, right?

Someone says that the Buddhist metaphor of the master jeweler teaches that the three turnings of the wheel purify, respectively, the gross, subtle, and extremely subtle stains of obstacles to the essence of one gone to bliss, and that's why only the last turning of the wheel is literal. KWJ responds with a twofold criticism. So what did he say in brief?

Rob says each step refines the student or something like that. So why does KWJ criticize that? I didn't hear what Rob said, but would someone like to give a shot?

Remember, this is KWJ. I don't know. Everyone here thinks it's not such a bad example for cleaning the bed.

[Speaker 2]
Unless there's something about thinking any of these topics are self-existent in nature.

[Speaker 1]
Well, that would be a problem for sure. But that's not what KWJ, that's not how he responded. First, he said what you've said is based not on scripture, but on a lack of investigating scripture.

Secondly, he said what you've said contradicts your own assertions. So let's delve into these a little more deeply. So KWJ says this misunderstanding is contrary to scripture.

What scripture did he reference and how is it contradictory?

[Speaker 2]
Is it what I really meant?

[Speaker 1]
Yay. That is the scripture. Thank you, Oscar.

And how is it contradictory?

[Speaker 2]
Is this something that KWJ is saying that because the Buddha said this is literal, then that must be the literal turning of the wheel?

[Speaker 1]
Um, no, he didn't. He didn't talk about that. That issue comes up in our last question for this morning.

But what he mentioned was that what I really meant explains that the three turnings of the wheel are for different types of students. It's not for one student to go progressively through the three turnings. So KWJ also says it's contradictory to what those who follow the mind only accept.

How so? Major hint. It's very much like the answer to the first part of this question.

What would the mind only say about the second turning of the wheel? About the three turnings of the wheel. I'm guessing they say they're progressive when they build upon each other.

Yeah, it gets better and better. No, they accept that there are disciples of different types and that the three turnings of the wheel are taught for the purpose of teaching different types of students. So that's the way in which this Kachik is making an assertion that's contrary to what he's asserted elsewhere in this text.

If it's the same person, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
And to clarify, I mean, that's the one that we seem to be agreeing with or KWJ seems to agree with?

[Speaker 1]
That there are different types of students?

[Speaker 2]
Yes, right, as opposed to progressive, that this is the reason for the three turnings. This is our position at this point in the text.

[Speaker 1]
I mean, but he did, the reason this Kachik showed up, as you recall, is that KWJ said the three turnings of the wheel are how they deal with the topic of selflessness. That's what defines a teaching, being a member of one of the three turnings of the wheel.

[Speaker 2]
Great. Yeah, great. That's great.

[Speaker 1]
So then the opponent says, okay, and here we go, Oscar, because the Sutra, what I really meant, says the final turning of the wheel is literal. It is therefore literal. And they also say, this person, that the perfection of wisdom sutras are of the final turning of the wheel.

What absurd consequence does KWJ present as following that belief or that assertion? Yeah, which means the third turning is the second turning. Tina says the third turning would be the second turning, or something like that.

Well, there is this issue that, yeah, the perfection of wisdom sutras are within the second turning of the wheel, not the third. But what's the implication of, from this person's point of view, of the perfection of wisdom, of considering the perfection of wisdom sutras as being of the final turning of the wheel? That they are literal.

They are literal. That they are literal, right? So then what's the issue?

What's the absurd consequence of holding that, what I really meant, and the perfection of wisdom sutras as both being literal? They contradict each other. They contradict each other, right?

So if it were true that what I really meant and the perfection of wisdom sutras were all literal, then it would have to be the case that an accurate perception would have no problem accepting two contradictory statements, changing things truly exist and all things lack true existence. I suppose there's no English equivalent to Rinchen. Successively or in stages.

Yay, thank you. Yay. I suppose there's no Tibetan equivalent to because it's contrary to.

Gyalwe Chir? Because it's contrary to. Dung Gyalwe Chir.

Dung Gyalwe Chir. Yeah, Dung Gyalwe Chir. And the English equivalent to Denmei.

Lacking in reality. Yeah, empty or lack true existence. Thank you very much.

That's the closest I can come to having three steps versus one that just parachutes you out of the whole mess of cyclic existence. Venerable Upa, do you have some translation? I do.

I just have to reshare a document and I have to find it on my, I think this is it. And I know it's tiny. I'm working on it.

Okay, it's medium. Oops. We can zoom in from our side too.

Like if people don't find it big enough, we can zoom in on it. Would you like me to read the Tibetan, Keshe Michael? Yes, please.

Yang Khachig. Yu Xing. Good.

So, we're getting into some very, very interesting... You know, did you notice that in words, mind only text, and in Utpala's Middle Way text, which is right now talking about the mind only school, they both start to address the issue of... If there's one path or three.

What did the Buddha... When did the Buddha say what he meant and when did the Buddha say what he didn't mean? Because the student was weird.

Okay, all right. And so, he's going to kind of try to define what it means to speak literally and what it means to speak figuratively, okay? And that's, we're getting into that subject.

By the way, after how many years? Four years of work?

[Speaker 2]
A gazillion, at least.

[Speaker 1]
We are about to leave the Middle Way school. We're about to go to the... Sorry, we're about to leave the mind only school.

And we're about to enter the Middle Way school in one of the greatest books ever written about emptiness. So, it's kind of a big day. This day or the next class that we have, we will be finishing the first half of the book.

And we struggle through the mind only. And the Middle Way, by the way, is all downhill. Okay, it's what you grew up on.

So, it'll feel familiar. This is not familiar. Okay, ka chik means what, Udpala?

Some guy. Yeah, some guys say, that sutra is gambayin sikson. We call it sikson.

Say it, sikson. Sikson. Sikson.

Sikson. Sikson. What sikson means?

Teaching, well, words. See, I didn't... It's an ancient term for literal.

Take it as the word say. Sin, sik. Sin is the past tense.

Ah, nzin. Yeah, hold. So, it means take it as literal.

Take it according to the wording. So, somebody said, what's interesting is they are trying to find a sutra which defines literal and figurative. Okay?

They're not trying to find a sutra which is literal. And they're not trying to find a sutra which is figurative. They're trying to find a sutra which gives us a final decision on how do you judge what the Buddha really meant, and how do you judge when he was speaking figuratively.

Which according to Tsongkhapa, is one of the most serious responsibilities of every spiritual person in the world. You personally have to decide when was the teacher telling the truth, and when was the teacher being figurative. And no one else can do it.

Not even the teacher can do it, because they might be speaking figuratively. Yeah. So, we're trying to find a sutra that tells us how to distinguish between what the Buddha really meant and what the Buddha didn't really mean.

DEN TSOS means... This TSOS is the TSOS in TSEMA, which means measurement. So, what's the measure of a scripture being literal or figurative?

DEN DES DE LTAR DU SGRUB PA NGES PA'I DOD If you can take it literally, that's the definition of literal. If you can take it according to the words. If your teacher says something and you can accept it on face value, according to what the words say, that's what we call NGES PA'I DOD.

Say NGES PA'I DOD. So NGES DOD means literal, literal. Together they're called DRANGS NAS, figurative or literal.

So that's literal. If you can take the words on face value of the teacher, then that's what we call literal. DE LAS RDOG PA The opposite of that.

Anytime you see ZL, anytime you see ZL, first of all it's a D. Don't tell me sloppy, or something like that. ZL is pronounced NGD, prenasal D, NGD.

And the classical example is NGDA BA, SEMS DA BA, which means the moon. Because it's the partner of the sun. It's the opposite of the sun.

So the word for moon means opposite. And the word for wife or husband is also NGDA, the other half. So DA means other half.

So RDOG has all these meanings of opposite. What's he saying here? You want to get to DRANGS DON, which means figurative.

Then RDOG third, NGES DON. Yeah, opposite of what I explained for NGES. NGES DON was, you can take the teacher's words on face value.

Therefore DRANGS DON is, you cannot take the teacher's words on face value. You have to interpret them. You know, what's the famous example of my teacher in the monastery?

Say it, KHYOD CHOG. My teacher had a student who was very careless. And every time he washed the dishes, he would break two or three.

So anytime my teacher was giving a class and he'd hear the student washing the dishes, and he'd hear him start the water and get the soap out and say, Hey, KHYOD CHOG, which means, could you break a few more dishes? Which means, it has to be interpreted. It means don't break the goddamn dishes.

Okay, got it? So the opposite of that kind of language is literal. Okay, RDOG PA is CHANG BA'I DON.

The opposite of literal is interpret. To be interpreted, CHANG BA'I DON. KHA'I LEN, that's what we KHA'I LEN.

Accept. KHA means what? KHA.

KHA means mouth. KHA'I means with your mouth. LEN means take it like DONG LEN.

Taking, right? So KHA'I LEN means to agree to something. Take it with your mouth.

KHA'I LEN is the past tense. Therefore, if this is how we define literal and figurative, then the Khorlo Tama, the final turning of the wheel, the last of the three... Now, traditionally we say Lord Buddha had three specific periods in his life when he taught much differently.

He evolved through the course of his life. And his first teachings are very dry. Abhidharma, we call the accounting teachings.

Sounds like we had it in Stanley's class this week. Very dry. Just numbers.

And then that was the first turning of the wheel. He did not talk about emptiness much. Then in the second turning of the wheel, everything is empty.

Heart Sutra, Diamond Cutter Sutra, all the Prajnaparamita Sutras. Everything is empty. Nothing is real.

Third turning of the wheel? Yeah, which means... Oh, maybe I went too far on that.

People questioned him. People criticized him that he said everything was empty. And he said, you know what?

Maybe some stuff is, and maybe some stuff's not. And that's the third turning of the wheel, traditionally. Here, Khorlo Tama means the last one.

Tama means the last one. Dodegongdel is what? Utpala?

The sutra called What I Really Meant. Yeah, the sutra called What I Really Meant. It's confusing because the name of that sutra is Drelpa.

Commentary. And usually commentary means someone explaining what Buddha said. Who's explaining what Buddha said in this case?

[Speaker 2]
The Buddha.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, Buddha. By the way, when I taught you everything was empty, I didn't really mean it. You know?

So that's the third turning of the wheel, okay? Very famous. And the book which defines the third turning of the wheel is a book called Hey, This is What I Really Meant.

Okay, clarification. Lhasapa. NGES PAS BDUN That last turning of the wheel was the NGES.

NGES BDUN That was the real one. The third turning of the wheel was the right one. The other two were exaggerations or something.

Because in the third turning of the wheel he said, Oh, I didn't really mean the second turning and the first turning. I mean the third turning. Okay, got it?

So they agree. That's the mind-only school. So yeah, third turning of the wheel was when he said what he really thought.

And Khorlobharpa, the middle turning of the wheel, yeah, what's the famous use of this par that you can remember the word by? BAR DO The state in between death and rebirth. Okay, say BAR DO.

Yeah, it's not an English seed. It doesn't exist in English. This beast sound does not exist in English.

It's BAR, BAR, BAR DO. Okay, BAR DO. So BAR DO means the middle turning of the wheel.

Those sher chen gyi dos in Chinese. BYONG BA'I DANG BORO BOR MI DO Okay, PRAJNAPARAMITA. Okay, the Paramita Sutra.

Okay, those sutras were BYANG DON. Heart Sutra, Diamond Cutter Sutra, PRAJNAPARAMITA Sutra. They were all...

Fingernails. Yeah, I didn't mean it. I said everything was empty.

I was just exaggerating to wake up the goddamn students. Okay? You know, I thought they'd go, And I'd say, Okay, now you're awake, I can tell you the truth.

Which is that not everything's empty. Because changing things are real. Changing things are real.

Things that perform a function are real. If you burn your hand on something, it's real. Okay, all right, all right.

Now let's look at the translation. A sutra's meaning is exactly as it's taught. Word by word is of literal meaning.

Good. And the opposite of that is accepted as being... Yeah, of figurative meaning.

Good. And the sutras of the final turning of the wheel, such as what I really meant, are literal meaning. Good.

And the sutras of the middle turning of the wheel, such as the Perfection Sutra, are figurative meaning. Perfect. Okay, let's go to the next paragraph.

So Geshe-la, I just want to say that I'm sort of over time on my part of the class. So if we want to go to you in the text, or do you want to get to... Yeah, no, we're okay.

We got to go here anyway. We might as well do it. Okay.

But thank you for being considerate of the other students. Okay, who's going to read 406, Venerable Upala? And you can correct them, okay?

I'm Venerable Chintzun. Okay, do you want to come here and sit? Quick, quick.

Wait, don't spill that glass. Okay, please read. Venerable Upala, you are correcting.

I am relaxing.

[Speaker 2]
Venerable Upala, you are correcting.

[Speaker 1]
chenpoy do la sokpa dak ni korlo ta me do ngeypa dun do du dun do dun do maway do maway do chenpoy do Okay, good. Citrus, such as the essence of those who have gone away, dewa shepa nyingpoy do Okay, and the shining jewel of wisdom sutra, ye shi nyeypa du Okay, good. Striking the Great Gem Sutra.

Okay, good. A teaching to help angulimala, a string of figures. What's the story of this guy?

His evil teacher told him... He killed people and collected fingers? His evil teacher told him, if you can collect a thousand fingers of human beings and put them on a string around your neck, you will achieve nirvana."

And he collected 999. He collected 999. Then he...

The last guy he chose was Lord Buddha. And he started chasing Lord Buddha. And that's a long story.

That's got to be Maitri. The Exalted Sutra on Dharani. By the way, this is all one word, okay, Udpala?

Pabpa here just means... Well, yeah. It probably just means Exalted Sutra.

And then Sunggye Wangchuk means the Lord of all Dharanis. And then apparently that's the name of a king. The King of Mantras or something like that is the name of a king.

Lord of Mantra is the name of this king, apparently. We'll have to go look at it. Shubha means he requests that sutra.

Did you? I tried to find all of them, and this one I could not. Yeah, there's a little tricky.

We'll use the database. The teaching that ever expands and never diminishes. It's probably no increase and no decrease.

Probably the may distributes to both. Yeah, okay. It means the dharma never gets more, the dharma never gets less, or something like that.

Then the Sutra of the Great Nirvana, which is a very amazing, important sutra, etc. My teacher would say, oh, so the rest are not amazing and important? Khor-la-tam-mey-do So all of these sutras, which, by the way, the sutras of the Third Turn of the Wheel are not famous.

The main sutra is what I really meant, and most people cannot name another one. So this author is saying, look, there's not just one sutra in the Third Turn of the Wheel, there's lots. And he gives examples.

These are all nge du. These were spoken literally. He said what he meant, and he meant what he said.

All right, good. Let's do 407. Who's going to read 407, Venerable Pala?

Ben, just because I can see you. And because you read well. Thank you.

[Speaker 2]
That's what you think. Let's see.

[Speaker 1]
This translation is great. I would just question Bertok's, okay? And by the way, Bertok, By the way, everyone misspells it.

Tsongkapa misspells it. So it means different things. Without the R, it means to impute or to give a name to something, which is what your mind does to objects.

In that case it's label, to label something. But when you put an R in it, Bertok's, Baha'u'llah Ratta Tattaga Sattag, when you add an R here, it changes the meaning to examine, to examine something. And as a criticism, it means you haven't really thought this out very carefully, have you?

It's a criticism here. This idea of you is not well thought out. Nambar means well.

So you haven't thought this out very well. And then the guy says, why are you saying that? And we say, well, these latter sutras, meaning the whole list of sutras he just gave, what they teach, what that list of sutras teaches, and what the sutra called, what I really meant teaches, are completely different from each other.

So don't put them together. Don't say they're all the third turning of the wheel. Some of them must be and some of them must not be, because they certainly don't say the same thing.

They don't give the same teaching. Only what I really meant. Sutra clearly says, I didn't mean what I said in those radical emptiness sutras, Heart Sutra, Diamond Cutter Sutra.

I wasn't literal. Don't overestimate it. And those other sutras that he listed, that was the other guy, and they don't have the same message at all.

In fact, it might be difficult to find another sutra other than what I really meant, which can be the third turning of the wheel. Okay, got it? Which means the third turning of the wheel took like 20 minutes.

Okay, never mind. Let's go to Grandpa's screen. Okay.

By the way, you did a good job and you spent a lot of time, and I know you had a bad cold or something, because I was there when it attacked you. And thank you for... By the way, thank you for taking care and venerable Jing Mei.

She got this bad cold at the hospital, sitting there for six hours or something, and driving both ways and stuff like that. So I'm very grateful for that. Thank you for being so glad.

We criticized him and said, look, the sutras you listed, and the sutra where the Buddha says what I really meant, they are not at all similar. Then the guy comes back with... Who's going to read, Utpala?

Let me find my people. Bertha, are you translating or can you read? She's translating.

Okay. Okay. I would like...

Catherine, Yang, are you translating or can you read, please? Yes, I can read. Thank you.

[Speaker 3]
My name is Shana. My name is Gondrel. I am from Jampa.

[Speaker 2]
I would like to tell you a story. My name is Gondrel. I am from Jampa.

I would like to tell you a story. Lovely. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Nice. Very, very nice reading. Excellent reading.

Very good. JI LTAR MI TSUNG We said to the guy, look, those sutras you listed are in no way the same, TSUNG, equal to the sutra where Buddha said, hey, here's what I really meant. They're not equal at all.

The guy says, well, how are they not equal? JI LTAR means how are they not equal? We answered, DO DE GONG REL, which means what I really meant.

I put in the translation what I really meant. GONG DU BYANG BA LTAR As we have read it above, we already covered this point to some extent, it teaches SHES PA THAR THUG THEG PA GSUM Very, very famous. Say, THAR THUG THEG PA GSUM What's that mean, Utpala?

There are three paths. In the end, there are three paths. In the end, there's three different paths to enlightenment.

In the end, there are three different paths to spiritual fulfillment. In the end, there are three tracks. And never the train shall meet.

It means they don't cross. There are three independent paths to enlightenment. That's the position of that's the position of what I really meant.

What I really meant says there are three discrete paths to enlightenment. And these PHYI MA PHYI MA means those later sutras you pulled out. There are like 70 sutras.

You said they belong to the third turning of the wheel. But they don't cover the same subject matter as the what I really meant. Why?

He says, well, what's different? And we said, well, what I really meant outlines three paths to enlightenment. Now, what's the second half of this sentence going to say?

We call it anticipatory translation. Yeah, it's going to say... As a translator, sometimes you just pause in the middle of a paragraph and you say, what's he supposed to say next?

And then it's a lot easier to translate it. So, Lancelot, what I really meant outlines three different paths to enlightenment. And those other sutras you mentioned, they only outline one.

Let's see if that's what it says. THAR THUG THER PA BYED So listen, you don't have to sweat so hard. You don't have to figure out every word.

Think about what you're translating. And think about what should be coming next. And you just save a lot of time.

Sometimes you're wrong, by the way. So make sure the words fit what you thought. Okay.

So what's the latter? What's the idea in all those sutras, which is not the same as what I really meant? They say THAR THUG THER PA BYED.

In the end, all spiritual paths go to the same place. Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Communist, they all go to the same place. They all meet in the same end.

They all meet end in the same place. And it's a very passionate subject in the Prajnaparamita. And Asanga talks about it a lot.

You can spend six months on that. The proof that all spiritual paths lead to the same place. It's a very beautiful concept in Buddhism.

All right. Let's keep going. Who's going to read next, Nupala?

Venerable Khading, could you please read? Certainly. Certainly.

[Speaker 2]
CHEK PA PEL CHENG PA PEL. Oh. HAK?

PAK. Oh, PAK. Oh, PAK PA.

Of course. PAK PA PEL PRENG CHI DU LEH NYEN CHENG. DRAK CHUNG PA MA RIG PAK.

CHA KEE TANG SAK PA ME PAY LEH KEE KIN. GEE YEE KEE RANG SHEN GEE LOO LEN PAR SHAY LA. DE YANG LAK CHE KEE KAB LA JAR ME RUNG TE.

DRA CHUNG LAK CHE KEE LOO NEE KAY BA PAD. KAY WA NGA ME LEH NYON GEE CHAK PAY DU PANG DE.

[Speaker 1]
PANG PAY DUG NYAL GYI PHUNG PO YIN PAY CHI RO. Lovely, thank you. Nice, nice.

Very, very good. Very good. Thank you for all the help at Diamond Mountain this week.

It was very pleasant to be there. You guys worked very hard and the place looks beautiful. The place is the best it's ever been.

Thank you. There's a debate in Buddhism, and there's a misconception about Buddhism, that Buddhism says when you reach nirvana you disappear, and somehow that would be wonderful. There was a band called Nirvana, and the leader of the band disappeared himself.

He committed suicide. There is this idea that Buddhism says that when you reach your final enlightenment, you just disappear. There's a lot of argument about that.

That kind of disappearance is called LHAG MED. Say LHAG MED. LHAG MED means nothing left over.

Just your pants are probably sitting there on the cushion, and the person's gone. Probably your underwear is still there. That's called LHAG MED, nirvana with nothing left.

Before you reach that final, final nirvana, there's LHAG CHE. Say LHAG CHE. LHAG CHE means there's still something left over.

You have some kind of physical and mental components are still there. In the lowest schools of Buddhism, Abhidharma schools, there's divided two kinds of nirvana, LHAG CHE and LHAG MED. Higher schools have a very intriguing take on that, but we don't have time to do that today.

Or we'll never finish this book. So, Bapa Belchen Gyi Do, he's taking a sutra named Belchen, Glorious Mala or Glorious String. We don't know what it is.

It's probably a business name. I think we've heard of the Glorious String. Yeah, that sutra says...

Let's consider DRAG CHEN PO. What's the DRAG CHEN PO? Our heart, enemy destroyer.

Of the NYEN TU, meaning lower track. Lower track. Basically, not Bodhisattva track.

They reach nirvana, but they aren't reaching nirvana for the sake of others. They are reaching nirvana for personal purposes, personal reasons. They're called listener, but the idea is they're selfish.

They still have some kind of self. They want to get to freedom themselves. They're not worried about other people.

They're called listeners. NYEN TU DRAG CHEN PO, MA RIG PA'I BA CHAGS KYIS By the way, enemy destroyer, the enemy you destroy, is generally explained as the final seeds of impurity. The final seeds of impurity.

Here it says... Here the claim is that those particular guys, our hearts, which means a person who has reached nirvana, but not necessarily Buddhahood. There's a big difference.

Nirvana could be lower than Buddhahood. It could be equal to Buddhahood. It depends on what your motivation is.

If you have a high motivation, then nirvana equals Buddhahood. If you have a lower motivation, nirvana comes first, and then you improve your motivation and you reach Buddhahood. These are guys who need to improve their motivation.

NYEN TU DRAG CHEN PO They still have some kind of BAG CHAGS. Some kind of seeds. Deep mental seeds for MA RIG PA, misunderstanding the world.

This sentence is really difficult, Utpala, because you have to go from key to key. Here's KYIS, and here's GYIS, and they are meant to be parallel. It's a very difficult sentence because of that.

They do something because of this, and because of this. That's all. Two things are creating a result here.

Two powers are creating a result. He says, buy that, and buy that. You have to understand, it's a sentence where there's two parallel phrases.

They get in trouble because of this seed, and they get in trouble because of this. There's two because of's. Is it common that they would repeat that article?

No, it's not common. Instead of just having one that distributes? It's not common.

As a translator, you have to think, why did he separate them? Why did he say... You want to say he's overweight because he doesn't exercise and he eats a lot of bread, which is my case.

You would just have one because. You see what I mean? He's overweight because he eats too much bread and he doesn't exercise.

But in this case, he said he's overweight because he eats too much bread, and, pause, because he doesn't get enough exercise. There is a reason why he said because twice. You have to figure it out.

As a translator, you have to ask the question. There's two because's here.

[Speaker 2]
That weird and, the tongue after the ki, is that our big clue? That's a pretty funky formation otherwise, right?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it is a clue. It is a clue. So, two things are creating a result here.

Ki this, and ki this. What's the first thing? marikpay barchak He still has deep seeds for misunderstanding the world.

Which is generally touchy for an arhat. He's not supposed to really, but that's a delicate question. And he still has le.

Karma. He still has karma, and it's a very strange kind of karma called sakme. Unstained karma.

We call it unstained, stainless karma. It's karma, but somehow it wasn't collected by misunderstanding the world, which is very unusual. So he has some kind of special karma.

You can say clean karma. It's a great question, and generally you cannot. So it must be some super subtle thing.

That has a special expression to it. And it's a weird kind of deep seed. Super deep seed.

What was the question, Geshe-la? How can he be an arhat and still have seeds for ignorance or misunderstanding? And the answer is, I would call it a shadow seed or something like that.

There's kind of a phantom seed that is described in some scriptures. So anyway, he's got these two kinds. Therefore, he is going to lempa, a new body.

Take on. He's going to take on a new body. He's going to go through a rebirth.

But that particular body is made of yi. Mind. Yeah, it's a mental.

This is kind of an answer to the ancient question to the lower schools. They say when you reach nirvana, you disappear. And we say, who?

So the guy who reached nirvana is called an enemy destroyer. So they say enemy destroyers, when they reach nirvana, they lose their body and mind. They no longer have a suffering body and mind.

So we say, well, where are they? And they're like, I don't know. They do disappear.

And there's nothing there. But somebody achieved nirvana. Got it?

If anyone ever tells you Buddhism says that when you reach nirvana, you disappear, the classic answer of the three higher schools is, who? And then that's traditionally enough to stop the whole first school. And the first school took 700 years to figure out their school.

So it's not a small thing. But one question can blow them up. Where is this guy?

Where is the Arhat? And they're like, I don't know. Does he have a body?

No. Does he have a mind? No.

Now, some people might say he had this special immaculate karma, sakme, vimala, vimala karma, and he took on a kind of a mental body. It's not physical. Because if it were physical, it would still be suffering.

It would still have to pee-pee and poo-poo and get heart operations and stuff like that. So he has a mental body. yi kyi rangshin kyi luk lenpa shepa Those books describe...

that sutra describes how an Arhat takes on a sort of a... I don't know, a miracle body or something. He still has a body, but it's not physical.

Not... Don't ask me.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Then we say, la, but, de yang klak che kyi kap klak che means when you still have something left over. So in the lower school they would describe a nirvana where you still have something left over. You still have a physical body that was projected by your old bad karma, but you're not making any new bad karma.

When that body dies, you're free. Okay? So that's called body created by dirty good karma.

And then in theory you'd have a body created by pure karma. Like you go to heaven and you still have a body. You have a different body there, like an angel's body or something like that.

klak che kyi kap la jang mi rung te You couldn't say that when someone still has a dirty body, they have this new mental body. Why? da chok klak che kyi lun ni The body that arhat has that's left over from their old bad karma.

klak che The body that hasn't... The old karma hasn't worn out yet. They are no longer misunderstanding the world.

They are no longer creating karma. But they still stuck with this body that was projected by their old bad karma. And it will wear out.

That projection will wear out. That body will disappear. They'll enter a new body, angel's body, heaven body, something like that.

lu kyi kyewa nga me le kyi le nyun gyi kyewa nga me le nyun kyewa nga means your previous lives. le and nyon mo Yeah, karma and negative emotions, which is enough to project a new dirty body, a new impure body. pangpay dun gyal gyi pungpo Suffering body.

So he says, yeah, you can say he goes out of his physical body and he enters some kind of mental body. But if that mental body is produced by the same karma and negative emotions that the old physical body was created by, he hasn't reached nirvana. It's still being projected by dirty things, by his bad attitude and his bad actions to other people in the past.

Okay, so this is not... How they treat arhats is different in the different turnings of the wheel. Okay, let's keep going.

Who's going to read this next little piece here? Little piece. I got lots of victims here.

Emily, Tom, can you please read? You can do it, Emily.

[Speaker 2]
It's not comfortable right now. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Inna, Svetsova, would you like to read? Oh, Inna's here. Our Inna?

No, the other Inna. Okay. Inna Gada Debi Well, the other Inna is not responding, so would the Inna in the room please like to read?

You do the cursing, okay? Go slow so she can correct you. You do the cursing.

Okay. Yay! Nice meeting.

Inna and I are working on a meeting with the overseas study group. Rebecca's group. DE BA'I NA Therefore, THAG MED KYI NYANG DE When you reach nirvana with no, nothing left, THAG MED By the way, in the highest schools, this idea of something left over or nothing left over is reversed.

First you reach nirvana with nothing left over, and then you reach nirvana with something left over. They describe it as the direct perception of emptiness. When you see emptiness directly for the first time, for example, you go into a body which has no remainder.

Then when you come out of that perception of emptiness, you go back into a suffering existence. So you achieve immaculate first and un-immaculate second in the higher schools. It's very interesting.

It's intriguing. In the lower schools, it's kind of like, oh yeah, you have this dirty body, dirty body, dirty body. You get better and better, and then finally the dirty body dies, and you don't have a new dirty body.

Then you get into an immaculate body, like an angel's body. It's an interesting difference. Here it says, BHAG MA'I NYANG DE, the nirvana when you still have something left over.

Where have you seen BHAG before? The word BHAG. BHAG MTHONG Vipashyana.

Yeah, it just means special or ultra. BHAG MA'I NYANG DE, when you achieve nirvana with nothing left over, LUNG DU BYED PA is a tricky verb because it means to actualize, and they don't like to use the word achieve. They try to use a different verb for bring into being, bring it into being.

Okay, why? It would be weird to say, I worked and worked and worked and got to nothing.

[Speaker 2]
You see what I mean?

[Speaker 1]
I achieved... I worked and worked and worked spiritually. Yeah?

What happened? I achieved. What did you achieve?

Nothing. So they use a different verb. Technically they use a different verb and it means you manifested it.

You manifested the absence of a dirty body. Got it? Okay, which is a clean body.

LUNG DU BYED PA'I BRAL CHEN PO LA BRAL GOS LA That's the kind of arhat you need here. But LHAG MA'I THOB PA'I BRAL CHEN When you say an arhat, nirvana, nirvanicizer, who has achieved nirvana with nothing left over, no dirty things left, no dirty mind, no dirty body left over. When you posit that there is a person who can be an arhat, who achieves a place where there is nothing left over, that severely contradicts the idea of three paths.

THAR THUG THER PA GSUM Say THAR THUG? THAR THUG THER PA GSUM In the end there are three separate roads to enlightenment. And now we are THAR THUG THER PA GCIG PAS What's that?

Yeah, which is sweet. I mean it's very attractive. In the end, all spiritual paths on this planet go to the same place.

To me it's very attractive. But he says, if you are one of those guys who says there are three separate paths to nirvana, then I don't see how you can talk about an arhat who reaches a place where they don't have anything left. Because that would be the same result achieved by other levels of people.

And then ultimately speaking, there would be only one path. See what I mean? If you are saying there is such an arhat like that, then what you are really saying is all paths end in the same place.

And you can't go around saying there are three. So the question of what happens to you at the end impacts on this question of how many paths there are to enlightenment. If you reach the same enlightenment, if these Hinayana guys reach the very same arhat shun, without compassion, without caring about other people, if they reach the same kind of disappeared body thing, then there is only one path.

And those books are wrong. Then the Thirteen in the Wheel is wrong. Because it says there are three.

If the result of practicing a lower path is the same kind of disappeared person that you get through with the other paths, then the Last Turning of the Wheel was mistaken. Got it? So his argument about what happens to arhats at the end and his argument about was the Third Turning of the Wheel the real one, the true one, or was the second one the true one?

It's all the same. And it all came about through that original discussion of the by cleaning the jewels. Gemstone.

Gemstone. So we had a long metaphor from scripture about a guy who found a rough gemstone and with three different kinds of processes made it into a finished gemstone, which means nirvana with no remainder. The whole thing ties together sooner or later.

It's all one talk. All right, who's next?

[Speaker 2]
We're out of time.

[Speaker 1]
We're out of time, Geshe Michael. By tradition, we go, by tradition, yeah, we haven't finished the minority section. By tradition, Venerable Utpala will lead a discussion in which we try to, what's the date today?

The 21st of September. We're going to talk about, Venerable Utpala is going to lead a discussion where we're going to talk about how can you use today's reading in your real life. But I request one minute of time before that.

And I got this thing, I got this cool, look at this. How cool is that? This represents Rob Hagerty, who has been my student for 27 years or something.

And in the last year, he has foolishly accepted the job to schedule my life and schedule my calendar. And you have a calendar? It's an extremely hopeless task.

And I like to show it off. There's the calendar for July, okay? And it's like that.

It's impossible. The work I have to do is literally impossible. And so, Rob, what we try to do is we try to schedule things.

It's called a schedule. And we are currently scheduling next year, 2025. And it will be finished shortly.

So if you have something to ask me to do, talk now or forever, shut up. And there's Rob's picture. I forgot, I misspelled his name.

E-R-T-Y, sorry, Hagerty. And he's writing the schedule for next year, for 2025. If you want to request some kind of teachings, programs, personal meetings, long personal meetings, things like that, I'm afraid you have to do it now, for next year.

And because people like DCRE, they work a year ahead. They need to know the dates now. And the university needs to know the dates now.

And so those dates will be fixed in stone in the next few days. So there's Hagerty's email. If you want to request something that takes more than two minutes, ask him.

And I said it a thousand times, my life is down to the minute. I judge everything by the minute. And you don't believe me, and you don't hear it.

And I keep saying it, and nobody hears it. But I must arrange my time. I must carefully manage my time to the ten minutes, or something like that.

If I lose ten minutes unexpectedly, it hurts somebody else. It will hurt somebody else the next day, or two days later, or three days later. So if something unexpected happens, or you say, you know what, I have a program, can you come?

Then someone else will get hurt, definitely. So just please, please, please, please. Today is the day.

There's his name, spelled wrong. There's his email address. If you want time, if you have something in mind.

I love programs, that's why we have a problem. So just ask him, and write him. Now this other lady, she is not my scheduler.

She's my wife. So if you have something you want to schedule, talk to the guy in the tuxedo. Because if you talk to the lady and she says, yeah, I don't see why Mike can't meet you next week for an hour, and then someone's going to get hurt.

Someone's going to lose an hour. So talk to Rob, he's my scheduler. Now, my wife, she has four full-time jobs.

She runs their B&B business. She runs the Peachtree Cafe quietly. She has a 30-year-old massage therapist business.

And she has an extended family of about 30 children. Not her own kids, some of them. But she has to take care of about 25, 30 children.

She has four full-time jobs. And please, please respect her time. She's working like insane hours.

She works harder than me. And she doesn't get enough sleep. And she can't take care of herself.

Because people are calling her, talking for an hour, stuff like that. She can't. She can't do it.

She's going to collapse. Okay? So she's more busy than I am.

It doesn't mean she doesn't love to talk. She loves to help people. That's the problem.

And if I was you, I would call her too. And in fact, I do. That's why I married her.

I'm here. She says it's fine. It's fine, Charlie.

So just what I'm trying to say is be considerate. You are all Buddhists. So be considerate.

Think about how much she works. Think about how hard she works. And she loves to talk to people.

She loves to bring special messages to me from people. And that's all fine. That's wonderful.

And she's extremely compassionate. And if I was you, I'd want to talk to her also. But at the same time, be careful of her time.

And don't take too much time for yourself. And then there won't be time for other people. So be considerate.

Okay? Good? All right.

That's my message for today. And over to you. Bye-bye.

Before you go, Geshe Michael, is there some translation homework you'd like me to do for October? Oh, yeah. Hang on.

Let's go back to the text. Like finish this part of the book? Yeah, exactly.

Really? Okay. Exactly.

Yeah. So 411, 412, 413, 414, 415. And then we have reached our inauguration.

Okay? So if you do your work well, in the next class we can graduate to the second half of the book. Okay?

And that's a big, big deal. And thank you for surviving till the second half.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, I'm getting out of here. Thank you. I'm sorry.

You're welcome. If you want to go over a little bit, I'm sure Nick will allow it.

[Speaker 2]
Sure, sure. As long as Hospital will allow it.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. So, remember we talked about what can be considered literal. How is it?

What's the test for whether something is literal or figurative? Was that a question you're asking us? Well, I'm just reminding you of what we talked about.

And then this business about what the glorious Garland Sutra talks about in terms of someone who reaches nirvana with or without a body that has seeds. You know, so how can we apply this to our lives? Speaking as one who has a body filled with the explosion of negative seeds lately, I'm looking forward to that day.

Anyone have any thoughts about these topics?

[Speaker 2]
Just thinking about all these people who think they have the right idea. And then we're so lucky to be exposed to the right idea. I don't know where my thinking is.

There's this famous story of Je Tsongkhapa asking his teacher, well, asking Manjushri if he was leaning more in his thinking towards upper middle way or lower middle way. And Manjushri said, you know, something like, neither, you dummy. And so it's nice.

It's reassuring to know that we're likely all headed in the same direction. But I also hear it as a warning for myself to not be so sure of where my thinking is and to listen, just listen so carefully. We're especially lucky to be surrounded by smart people and to have a community of intelligent people learning and to pay attention to the people in the community, pay attention to the people around us, pay attention to people in the world to listen.

There's more to learn. Geshe Michael, I remember him saying once, you don't need to tell us about your understanding of Nagarjuna.

[Speaker 1]
We can tell by how many times you got angry today. We already know how well you understand Nagarjuna because we saw you yelling at that person over there.

[Speaker 2]
So this is a good judge of whether I should be telling everybody how smart I am in my understanding of emptiness or whether I should be paying attention to the brilliant ideas around me.

[Speaker 1]
I don't know where I'm at. And all these paths around, right?

[Speaker 2]
Maybe we're all headed towards the same place. I hope so. And I can pick up clues from people that I meet anywhere in my life, hopefully to push me to a higher place.

[Speaker 1]
Ben, I just thank you for that. And I just want to say that, I don't know, having you in my life and in this group of people, and the way you speak at these times when we talk about how to use the teachings in our life, you pretty much always bring it to love. And I mean, not only do I agree with you, but it's just so refreshing.

[Speaker 2]
I love you, Frank. Thank you very much.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. And it's always really hard to follow you, right? Because I think like that's the thing.

Love is the thing.

[Speaker 2]
Dr. Martin?

[Speaker 1]
Yes. One text I just received. Rob Rossinger is leaving the hospital for home today.

I did want to end today and ask everyone to please make a special dedication of our work on this text of trying to understand the nature of reality, the power of those seeds, and just give them all to Rob, that he may quickly recover. He served us during a three-year retreat, and the man is quite extraordinary.

[Speaker 2]
I want to share, I did help with the innovation retreat for like five, seven days now. And I don't know how everybody can do this for three years. That's incredible, impossible, and absolutely out of this world.

So thank you for everybody who protects people for this love.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you, Chloe. I see someone has their hand raised, but I don't know how to read Chinese. So if you just want to speak, if that's why you have your hand raised, that would be fine.

Thank you, Ubala. Thank you, Ubala. I want to ask a question.

[Speaker 2]
You said that every 500 years, there is a witness. Why is it that in the Buddha's time, there were so many students? Unfortunately, I can't hear the translation.

I don't have the translation. All right, who's going to translate for us?

[Speaker 1]
Catherine, can you tell us what he is speaking in? I can translate for you. Oh, great.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you, Ubala. You said that every 500 years, there is a witness.

[Speaker 1]
So the teacher said that every 500 years, there will be Arya.

[Speaker 2]
But why during Buddha's time, there are so many Arya? By logic, it is contradictory. If it is every 500 years, there is only one Arya, then that means the rest of us won't be possible.

So some day, I heard that someone asked Geshe Michael, saying that, am I able to achieve the enlightenment this month? And Geshe said, yes. Then this is contradictory to what Geshe Michael is saying, that every 500 years, Arya.

There was a saying that there will be one Arya every 500 years. But actually, in the times of the Buddha, there was only one. So it makes us think that it is impossible for us to be Arya, because it takes 500 years to have one.

But I remember that someone asked Geshe Michael that question, that can we see emptiness directly, or can we become Arya in this time?

[Speaker 3]
And then Geshe Michael said, yes, we can. So it seems like it sounds like complicated, or yeah.

[Speaker 2]
That's my question. Contradictory.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it does seem contradictory. And I think it sort of highlights what we've been talking about in this particular piece of the book, which is what is literal and what is figurative. And as Geshe Michael told us in this class today, that Je Tsongkhapa says, only each of us as an individual can make that determination of what is literal and what is figurative.

And then I always like to think about Arya Nagarjuna, who says, in emptiness, all things are possible.

[Speaker 2]
I think you can do it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. We're all in agreement.

[Speaker 3]
You can do it.

[Speaker 2]
No problem.

[Speaker 3]
Okay. Yeah, I just want to respond to you. It's mute.

[Speaker 1]
We are dangerously encroaching on the time of the Peachtree World News. So I would love to hear what you have to say, but I think we have to go now to the Peachtree World News. Let's hear Tina, and then we'll move to the next.

Go ahead, Tina. Okay. And then we'll move to the next.

[Speaker 3]
Okay, thank you. I just want to quickly respond to the question asked her, because I experienced the same doubt during my journey. So I just want to change the question, because now you are in doubt.

You will say, I remember my experience. I will say, wow, so many people, you know, only 500 years, only one. Definitely not me.

But when I change, why not me? You can change from not me and then to, yeah, possible. There is always a positive possibility.

It's me. Why? You know, I can be the one.

So it just, it's dramatically changed my attitude and my journey. So I just want to offer this to the question asked her, to the gentleman. Thank you so much.

Ah. So you have the chance.

[Speaker 2]
Can I say, I think there are 230 people in this call, and I don't know how many people are in the room there. Something like 300, then people will say all together. And I have this sense that if you understand emptiness correctly, that you will come to see how there will be only one Aria in 500 years.

And each of the 300 people in this call will be the one Aria in 500 years in their world.

[Speaker 1]
If you don't have chills on your spine like me, I don't know. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, everyone, for your attention and your practice and your hearts.

And Juan, we left you with only eight minutes. I'm so sorry. No, that's okay.

No problem. I hope, because today we have a few people that are actually presenting very cool upcoming projects. I hope Nick let us go a little further.

On my side, I just want to say that very cool things are coming up very, very soon. Just to mention a few that we will be talking more in the next few days.

[Speaker 3]
In Argentina, there is about to be some very cool events regards the Latin America tour in the next few weeks. DSU is having big events in Sedona very, very soon. And actually today, we have a dear friend, Edmond, with us.

[Speaker 1]
After a few other announcements, he will be showing what's coming up. And of course, we have the upcoming events in Diamond Mountain. Just to remind you, if you want to register for the pre-retreat, we have the QR code.

You may still have time to sign up for it, which is like a preparation week, where you're going to get familiar with some of the practices that then Geshe Michael is going to be teaching on the 12th. Yes. On the 11th.

The 11th to the 20th. Also, just as a reminder, that's October, but in November, Hatha Yoga Paradipika is going to be happening in Sedona College here in Guadalajara. I hear a few people are thinking to go.

I think it's going to be a big room of people live there. It seems that way. So if you have wanted ever to take these classes live, I think you still have a chance to do it.

Just figure it out if it's possible. But I think a lot of people are planning to go live. It may be very exciting.

And remind you as well that in December, Geshe Michael is going to teach in Kyoto in Japan. December 1st to the 7th is going to be teaching these Steps on the Path. Sometimes it says that it's some of the last classes on this particular section of the book, and then new content is going to happen.

But it seems that it's going to be very, very special. Also, just to remind you, there is another event happening in October with David and Sarani. This is happening in Spain, just as a reminding.

And then I hear recently that they are organizing another event in Mexico, actually.

[Speaker 3]
This is going to be happening in January. This is a special retreat. It's planned for 15 people, and I hear it's almost sold out.

[Speaker 1]
There is still like four spots available. But if you are interested, it may be very, very cool.

[Speaker 3]
At least you know it's happening. Follow the QR code, or you can talk as well with Roxana. She lives in Hermosillo in Mexico, and she's helping to produce this event as well.

So just letting you know what's happening.

[Speaker 1]
We're going to be coming back with more news very soon, and other interviews, but for today, we want to welcome Edmond, which is going to tell us about DSU, this upcoming program, and some open classes where many people can join. Cool table, help me to spotlight Edmond. Hey, hello, Edmond.

Hey. Hi. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
How are you?

[Speaker 1]
Good to see you. Yeah. We just arrived in Sedona on Monday.

Wonderful. I will be arriving tomorrow. Yeah.

Oh, good. Cool. Yeah.

We arrived on Monday, and now we start the preparation for our coming event, which will be on September 26th. So all the people here in Sedona are invited to the class. We will have an opening ceremony, and then followed by open classes, including we have, actually there are two, there is a two-day event.

The first day will be on December, September 26th on half past three in Sedona time. And the second day will be at half past four. And then in both two days, we will have a ceremony and also the open class, open EMBA and MBA classes.

And then for the first, the topic will, actually we will have two open classes on each day. The first day will is we will talking about the emotion intelligence. This is one of the topic.

And the other one will be entrepreneurship and innovation. This is the two topic. We actually are going to share with us.

Of course, we will have some special announcement for the, actually we will have a new program, which is we will announce it in the, during the event as well. So all the people in Sedona here are welcome to join. And then if people who, for people who are not in Sedona, all people are welcome to join in Zoom online.

Actually, you can see in this poster, the first link is our registration for the Zoom. People can, you can scan the QR code and then register for the, for the email for the two days. And then for the, the, the rest of the QR code is, we have a WeChat book.

If you are in using WeChat and if you don't use WeChat, we have also have a Telegram group. Both in the group for in the two group, we will share the latest news about the event and all other stuff about in latest news for DSU. Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Okay. So you say Edmond for people who are in Arizona or in Sedona, it's okay to go live to attend the class as well?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And we will have, we will have also have a gala dinner at the, at the golf club too, at the 36th. Amazing. Amazing.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited that I gonna be there.

So it's sounds exciting. See you soon. So there you go.

On my side, I can say the classes that I have had the chance to attend for DSU. Amazing. Amazing.

Very, a lot of innovation, very creative, very practical, very deep. I strongly recommend anyone. If you have a chance, try to, to get a taste of what these amazing classes are.

So thank you Edmond. Thank you Xiaoping. Thank you for inviting us and happy to be there in the program soon.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay. See you.

Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you Edmond. And also today we have Ina with us on studio. She was telling me about a new initiative.

She and captain Bill having cooking in their minds lately. And I would like to hear from you Ina, what's happening. You reach out a few days ago and I thought it's very interesting, but I would like to hear more about it.

Whenever you want, we have the poster. So just ask for it. Okay.

Hi guys. And I will try to be real, really quick. So, you know, that Michael introduced the teachings in a very authentic and modern form.

Right. So, and being a medical doctor, I was asking, why doesn't he teach how to be healthy? Right.

And then I realized it's quite difficult if you don't have like medical degree, et cetera. Then I realized I actually have medical degree and I also have PhD. And it was in psychosomatic medicine.

I do not work as a doctor right now because I'm doing some cool projects, but four years ago, we organized the group because people were complaining they have health issues like over 30 people. It was called true healing project. This is how we called it.

And we were just doing what Gash Michael taught us to do. Just, you know, putting on the sorry translators. So we just kind of made the program to make people think about other people, like to take the disease or something like a tool to help other people.

And the program was crazy successful. I mean, we had over 30 people with different health issues and addictions and guess how many were successful. I mean, all of them, all of them.

If they had the, if they really followed the instructions. And the most cool case was stage four cancer. Many of you know, Lena Spellman and she will do a video with presenting all the things that she had.

Like I know her for many years personally, and she is cancer free now after she had her liver metastasis and the skin infiltrate, she could not wear her white t-shirts because of the blood that would come out. People who know oncology, they know what it means. I lost my friend was the same exact diagnosis one or two years before.

So, and then we had two more persons stage four that one is cancer free. Another one from stage four, she's like stage two or something. So the idea is that we want to run a support group for people who have these issues, because I think this is something that is really a sheer suffering.

And my husband is here. He can confirm the case because he really was against me running this group. He said that we cannot guarantee anything and we cannot, we cannot.

But if there is a chance for even one person, you know, to get healed, then we should use it. We should take, take it. Right.

And I was running medical, I was running clinical trials for over 15 years. I know what I'm talking about. You struggle even for one person, if you have a chance to, for treatment to work.

So if you yourself have any oncology issues or, you know, somebody who is really serious about working with this. So here is the QR code. We will, we will read attentively.

It's a questionnaire. Then we will read it and we will send you an invitation. First we decided to do it just in English.

Then we figured that we should do it in Russian and Ukrainian because I cannot avoid that because I speak other languages. So we decided that that's okay. I will spend my time and we have volunteers who want to support this project.

So you are invited to share this link. Just they will really need to be serious, you know, about if you want to live, you will do it, you know? So that's what I wanted to say today.

Thank you, Inna, so much. So as far as I understand, this is a group that's going to aim through different techniques and systems, how to support and heal people specifically or specially with cancer issues. Yes, cancer issues, because we decided that if it will be helping here, you know, like then everybody else will figure that this is helpful, right?

So this is the biggest issue I think as of today. And it's great. And we have a lot of, a lot of practical stuff, like practical, like I really have seen many interesting things with working with these people.

So I think I can really share this. Amazing. Okay.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for taking the time, taking the effort and for caring. I think it's a good, it's hopeful.

It gives us some guidance if we ever are in a situation where ourselves or family members or anyone, and we need some ideas on how to proceed, how to start our healing process or their healing process. So it's good to know that it exists. Thank you very much.

And sending my best and dear regards to all of you, the audience online and the people live in the Rimrock Palace. So hopefully I'll see you soon. Very not.

I see you very soon.

[Speaker 3]
And yeah, excited to be there. See you in Arizona very soon. Thank you.

Have a great weekend. Best wishes always.