Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 52

[Speaker 1]
Let's go to your text, Utpala. I'm gonna go to your text, okay? Should I show it on my screen, right?

Yes, please. Let me go get it up first. Shantideva, you go take a break.

Hang on. Okay, translation. Translation.

Interlude, current.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, now, we're going to your text.

[Speaker 1]
Let's see. Betz, do you wanna talk about your text a little bit? So this is K.

Drupche's little book called Interlude on Emptiness, which is gonna be five volumes of 300 pages each. So it's not such a little book, and it's not really such an interlude. But we're at the very, very beginning of the beginning, where he raises the question like, okay, the Buddha taught so many different things about the way things are.

How do we know which is the one that we should put into practice so that we can see emptiness directly and get the heck out of this wheel of suffering? And so K. Drupche says, well, there's basically two different opinions about what is literal and what is figurative.

First, we've got the brothers, Masters Asanga and Vasubandhu. And then next we have Arya Nagarjuna. So he dives first into Masters Asanga and Master Vasubandhu, which is the mind-only school's ideas about the way things are.

And we've been in this for, I don't know, how many millions of minutes? And it will be many millions of minutes more before we get into Arya Nagarjuna. Okay, good.

So yeah, we are in the middle of a very difficult discussion about how did Arya Asanga and his half-brother Vasubandhu, what part, especially of the second turning of the wheel, let's say the Heart Sutra or the Diamond Cutter Sutra, what part did they think was literal? What part did they think the Buddha really meant? And which parts did he not mean?

Okay, and we're in the middle of a very difficult discussion on that. And here we go. This is one of those classes where the benefit is subconscious.

And if you don't understand what the heck's going on, you're in the right class. And it's going to have subconscious power on your mind. Trust me, and don't give up and don't turn off that.

You can still go to the refrigerator, but don't turn off altogether. And so I'm going to have Beth read the Tibetan just to get back in the saddle. And then we're going to talk about these quite difficult ideas.

Okay, Beth, I'll follow you with my cursor. NAM SHES DENG PAR DRUG KYANG NAM SHES NYID NAM SHES SO ZHES PAS THA NE GANG LAN DRUG PAS ZHIR DENG BAR MAN DRUG CING DENG DENG DRA'I THA NE KYI ZHI YANG NI ZHUG GYUR PA KUN THAG YIN LA Good. So what does Kuntak generally mean in the mind-only school, roughly?

It's concepts, conceptual. It's just an idea, just a thought. Yeah, something is called something.

Yeah, something is called something or we think of something as something, but it's not real, okay? It's not, in this school, it's not actually real. It's just an idea.

The name applied to something is an idea. It's not the cup itself. The application of the name cup to a cup is just...

But the cup is real. The cup is real. But calling it a cup, you can debate, it's a mental construct, right?

So these are referencing the three great principles of the mind-only school, one of which means, hey, it just exists in names and it's not the real cup that you can drink your coffee out of, okay? So he says, namshe itself, consciousness, your consciousness of the world, would you call it nominal or would you call it real? Real, he says.

Is it more similar to the cup or is it more similar to the name cup applied to a cup? It's more similar to cup. It's not visible.

It's not something you can hold in your hand, but it's real. It's not something that's just a concept. You have a mind or you couldn't be in this class right now.

Okay, hopefully. All right, but when we say this event in my mind is referred to as consciousness, when we say that, I'll say it again, there's the fact of consciousness in your mind. You are aware of this class.

But when you look at your consciousness and say, I have an awareness of this class, that is an awareness of this class, that goes into the realm of names again. You see what I mean? There's the awareness of this class exists really in the mind-only school.

But if you say, I think I'll call my awareness, awareness, then you're in the realm of names again, because you could call it fish or you could call it pizza. And that's artificial. What you call it is artificial.

The fact of consciousness is real. How you call it is artificial. That's just an artificial decision.

He says, dempa ma du, what's that mean? It doesn't exist in truth. Yeah, it's not real in that sense.

What you decide to call your consciousness is just a decision. You can call it sas nyanya, or you can call it consciousness, or you can call it anything else. That's just names.

But the fact that you're aware of this class is dempa dupa. That's reality. That's real reality.

drup ching, deng deng tar nyi kyi shiang ne si gyur pa. The fact that consciousness is what you can call consciousness, how about that? Is that kind of more of a name thing, or is that more of a thinking thing?

Awareness. Say that again? The fact that consciousness is what you call consciousness?

Yeah. How about the fact that you can call consciousness consciousness, is that in the category of real things like cup, or is it in the category of, I'm going to call a cup a cup? I'm going to call a cup a cup.

Yeah, it's more of the calling thing. And he says, therefore, gun ta. Therefore, it's a mental concept.

Yeah, it's just a mental concept. In the three great principles of the Mind-Only School. Okay, by the way, Mind-Only School, we had an earth-shaking comment recently where Je Tsongkhapa said, I think if you have a deep understanding of the Mind-Only School, you could practice the secret teachings.

You know, you could succeed in Vajrayana. That's wow. You know, that's his opinion.

Okay, here we go. Who's going to read? Betsy, you want to read one more time, and then you can have the pleasure of picking on other people.

Yes, please. YOD PA MA YIN TE Yeah, and, okay, un-count means but. DBANG ZHES LA SNGON PO NANG BA NA When SNGON PO, what's that, Bets?

When blue appears to the sense consciousness. No, the sense power. Yeah, sense consciousness.

Yeah. By the way, what's the status of that in the Mind-Only School? Blue, the color blue, is appearing to your eye power, the sense, what do you call it?

Sense faculty of the eye. And then you're aware that blue is appearing to the sense faculty of the eye. When that happens, is it somehow fake or not real in the Mind-Only School?

Somehow fake. It is fake, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Why?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it is fake. Oh, yes. It appears to be...

Outside. Outside. That's all.

Mind-Only School, it's a four-letter word to say this object is outside. Blue has five letters, but that's a problem. But to say that the blue is outside of your own mind is grasping to self-existence in the Mind-Only School, okay?

To think that the blue that you see is somewhere outside of your own foundation consciousness is ignorance. That's ignorance, okay? So, when you say, wang che la ngompa la ngompa dennyi di ngompo, when you say that this is blue, which is to identify that object's essence, ngo, okay?

And then you can say this blue happens to be impermanent, which is identifying a quality of the blue. So here they say you are identifying the essence of the object, blue, or you are saying things about it. It's not going to last forever.

It's going to turn to yellow someday or something. I'm not going to see blue all day, okay? With those two attributes of the object, its essence or its nature, and its features, khyepa, mo and khyepa, khyepa, kitanyaki, shir, when you think about the blue and you say, this is what I think of as blue, is that a correct perception?

When you call blue, blue, is that a correct perception in this mind-only school? I'll give you the easy part of the answer. When you see blue and you think it's outside, are you correct?

No. No, that's the ultimate no-no in the mind-only school. But if you look at blue and you say, this is blue, and this isn't going to last forever, is that a correct perception?

Yeah, that's okay. You're identifying. That's ranggit-sannigit-drupa-nirvana, nam shen nyeway ranggit.

Now, they get to a very deep idea. How many, generally, how many kinds of consciousness in the mind-only school? Eight.

Eight. Nice. Six are the normal...

Seven. Yeah, that you read in the Heart Sutra. Migme, nangme, nangme, chenme, nirme, yinme, surme.

Okay? Six, we call it nam shen sok drupa, the group of six consciousnesses. Then number eight is what?

Yeah, that's the foundation consciousness or storehouse consciousness where all karmic seeds are stored. And what's number seven? Nyonyi.

We call it klishta-jnana. We call it messed-up mind. What's it do for $100?

Kristina... Nyonyi? Oh.

Hey, hey, hey, Kristina Katsukasana. What does messed-up mind do relative to the other seven consciousnesses?

[Speaker 2]
It thinks that the refrigerator is self-existent.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. It thinks that the storehouse consciousness is me. Okay?

And it's ignorance. Therefore, it's called klishta-mind. Klishta-mind, number seven in the mind-only school.

Okay, so here is, now he's throwing in a number nine. Which we have not dealt with, we have not studied it. We did it in the long ago in the Bodhisattva Chakravartara when the bear got bitten by the mouse in the winter.

Yeah. Okay, and that's the study of rangrik. Say rangrik.

Rangrik. What? Apperception.

Perception. Apperception is a fancy psychology term for the ability of the mind to observe the mind in a single moment, not by memory, not by recalling the mind. It's not thinking, at two o'clock today, I saw this.

It's not that. It's a perception of the mind by the mind in the single moment of the mind. Sometimes they call it a knife-cutting itself or a man riding on his own shoulders.

Okay? In other words, it seems like an impossibility. But this school accepts the idea that you do have an awareness of your mind as you are thinking, all the time.

You always have a self-awareness of your thoughts. And that's called rangrik, self-awareness. In psychology, it's called apperception.

Now, question for you, Bet. The state of mind which looks at blue and thinks it's an outside object is mistaken. The state of mind that sees blue and says, this is blue, is?

Mistaken. Correct. It is blue.

Oh, sorry. I thought you said the same thing again. Sorry.

The state of mind that looks at blue and says, this isn't gonna last forever, is?

[Speaker 3]
Correct.

[Speaker 1]
Correct. What about rangrik? What about the state of mind that says, I'm being aware of blue at this moment?

Is that a classic mistake mind, in the mind-only school? Is it somehow holding something to be which is not? No, it can't be.

School is okay. It's correct. So the perception of blue by apperception doesn't hold the same ontological status as the perception of blue by, let's say, messed up mind that thinks it's outside.

Okay, cool? You can look at blue two different ways. One is correct.

One is wrong. ,THAG NYID KYI SHES NANG BA YOD PA MA YIN TE, ,KHYAD PAR NAM SHES DE NYID NGOL DANG KHYAD PAR ,KHYAD PAR THAG NYID KYI SHES NANG BA YOD PA MA YIN TE Okay? What's appearing to it doesn't have the same status as, for example, the opinion that blue is outside.

It's very interesting. There's a part of your mind which is correct about the blue. And that's the apperception of blue.

I am seeing blue. That's correct. And it happens in the moment that you see blue.

The mind is entertaining two thoughts at the same time, according to the Mind-Only School. Okay, let's go to 337. Utpa Abess, you want to read this one and we'll have some fun?

Okay. ,DBANG SHES LA NGO SOGS SNGA BA NA, ,NYID NANG DANG BYAS PA'I, ,NANG YANG NAM SHES NYONG BA'I RANG RIG, ,NAM SHES LA NYID NANG NUS PA'I, ,DGOS NAS NYONG SHES YIN PA'I PHYIR RO, Yeah, and you know, I spend hours with this stuff every day. And I get deeper and deeper understandings of it every day.

And for me, it's extremely pleasant and I use it for my whole life. I use it for everything. And it makes my life amazing.

So, here's a word called NYID NANG. Beth, what does it mean generally, NYID NANG? Where is it?

First line, 337, NYID NANG. Oh, it appears as two. Yeah, it appears as two, which is usually translated as...

Duality.

[Speaker 2]
Duality.

[Speaker 1]
Now, oftentimes in English, the word duality in psychology refers to the duality of subject and object. Okay, so the subject's over here, the object's over there. But in the study of the validity of perception, NYID NANG means, is there a duality going on where something seems to be one way, but it's not that way?

And that's called dual appearance, NYID NANG. It doesn't have to do with the feeling that I am separate from the object. In Buddhism, that's not a mistake.

And a lot of people think it is, or they think that's what they're talking about here. It's not that. Of course, the subject and object are different.

The word for object in Buddhism is... You'll share. That which holds the subject.

The thing the subject holds. The word for subject in Buddhism is the thing which holds the object. And then these people say, oh, Buddhism says you'd sink into the object and you're all one.

Chula chushapa, pouring water into water. Nobody ever said anything like that. NYID NANG doesn't mean that.

Duality doesn't mean that. Duality means it looks one way, but it's really a different way. Okay, got it?

So whenever you see the word NYID NANG, please, please, please, don't think it refers, duality refers to the separation of subject and object. It doesn't have to do with that. It has to do with, is the object what it seems to be?

Because you've got the real object and you've got what it seems to be. And those are two. And that's called duality.

I much prefer to call it discrepancy. Okay, there's the way it looks, the way it is, okay? In Tibetan, that's NYID NANG, okay?

Duality. All right, now he says, when you see blue with your wang che, you got lots of NYID NANG going on there. You have lots of it?

Okay. You got lots of duality in the sense of, something seems to be a certain way, but it's not. Why?

The blue seems to be... Appears to be outside. Outside, but it's not.

That's duality in the mind-only school. Okay, there's a duality going on. In the higher school, it means a feeling of self-existence.

In the lower school, it's a feeling that it's outside, that the thing is outside. When it's really, you're just looking at a part of your mind, your own mind. Okay, got it?

So, if the perception of blue with a sense consciousness is infected by duality, okay, got it? Now he says, you guys think that rangrig is infected by duality? What do you think?

Rangrig, when the mind sees itself. So, it doesn't see itself as being outside? Yeah, there's no duality going on there in the mind-only school's idea of duality, okay?

Because in the mind-only school's idea of duality, if you're thinking it's outside and it's not outside, you are infected by duality, okay? But if you're just aware that you're aware, if you're just aware you're not dead, for example, which is rangrig, which is apperception, okay? Is that infected by duality in this school?

No, it's all inside. There's no outside discussion. It's just your awareness.

It's your inner awareness. Is it mistaken in this school to say to yourself, I'm thinking of blue? No, it's not mistaken.

If you say, I'm thinking of a blue, which is outside by itself, that's a new one, okay? But if you're just thinking, I'm thinking of blue, that's okay, there's nothing wrong there. And we call- Wait a minute, you can't have a rangrig of yourself seeing that the blue exists outside?

We're not going there.

[Speaker 3]
All right.

[Speaker 1]
I'm just saying, in this school, it's not ninang yupa. It's not ninang dang chepa. It is not infected by ninang.

The ninang has third line, end of the line. What's the verb? Notepad.

Word for west, the western direction. It sinks, or subsides, or goes away, or? When you do in yoga a paschimottanasana, paschima came into, vashchima came into west.

It refers to the west, okay? And in Tibetan, the way you say west is nupa, which means it has set in the west. In meaning, referring to the sun, okay?

Nupa is what Vasubandhu says is going to happen about something in the final lines of his kosha. The teachings. The teachings are going to nupa, okay?

And Dharmakirti was whining about it when he died, right? Anyway, here it says ninang nupa. What's that, Beth?

Oh, so that the duality disappears. Is suppressed. Oh, so it's suppressed?

It's suppressed. Nupa means to suppress. Psychologically here, it means the feeling that the blue is outside of me and I'm over here is suppressed in rangi.

Okay. When you perceive your own mind, when the mind is aware of itself, it's not infected by worrying about things being outside but that aren't outside. The duality has nupa.

The duality, the sensation of duality has subsided. How's that, okay? It's not infected.

Rangrik is not infected. The perception of blue is infected in the mind-only school but the perception of your own mind is not infected. You're not thinking it's outside somewhere, right?

Got it? Cool. So I'm wondering why isn't this a ninth consciousness?

Because it's not... Why is this not a ninth consciousness? Because it's not infected.

I bet it is a ninth consciousness but they don't count it. They probably throw it into storehouse consciousness somewhere. I guess, okay?

I think it's built into each of the other perceptions. Oh, okay. Okay, so nyongje in the last three, three, seven, nyongje means that's how our perception experiences its objects, okay?

In a manner in which duality has subsided. Ni nung nupa. Cool, got it?

Cool. By the way, Upa, we understood two sentences in a row. I think it's gone.

It's amazing. It's amazing. Forgot to hit one, we have no idea.

We're gonna have somebody read for you. Yes, I would like Venerable Chin Sun please to read this. It's tough on her, isn't she?

Okay. New Yorkers can take it. Just make sure she has some coffee.

[Speaker 2]
Ready. Nyen ko de ni ki ma duwar nupa. Wang she ki nang yul rang gi sen ni ki ma.

Drup na yu pa njok mit mi she la.

[Speaker 1]
Nice, thank you. Okay. Beth, translate nyen to de ni.

So those two are the details in the sutras. Yeah, the two listener groups, okay? Which are the two lower schools of the four schools, okay?

They didn't even get as high as mind only, okay? They're below mind only. And he describes them as listeners, meaning they don't really get it, okay?

They say, wang she is ma duwar. They say that the sense consciousness is not deluded. Good, is not mistaken.

They say the perception of blue is not mistaken, okay? And nang yul rang gi sen ni. And they say, if the object which is appearing to a sense perception, nang yul, if the object which is appearing to a sense perception, such as the perception of blue, if that object did not exist in and of itself, rang gi sen ni, then yukpa jok mi she.

They wouldn't know how to describe it as existing.

[Speaker 2]
Right, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? If the object of a sense perception doesn't exist the way it seems, then it can't be real, and it cannot exist at all. They would say, if the blue is not what the blue appears to be, the blue doesn't exist at all.

The mind-only school would say, the blue is not what it appears to be, but it sure is there. Of course it's there. When you look at the sky, it's blue.

But it's not blue out there, it's blue in your head. Got it? Are you okay?

So that means that they wouldn't be able to establish... Not sophisticated enough to say, if it's not outside, it could still be real. Okay?

Got it? The lower two schools would say, then it's not real. If it's just in your head, it's not real.

And the mind-only school says, because it's in your head, it's real. Okay? Got it?

Good? Okay. I got three sentences, oh my God.

Who's next, Beth? Is Inna available? I like having a meeting here with you guys because we get to show off some more.

Are we more animated today? Okay, go. Inna is not available.

I gotta quickly look through 459 million names. Is Svetlana available?

[Speaker 3]
Yes. Yay. Lovely.

Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
The camera's whistling. I'm gonna cut your... No whistling.

All right. Here we go. Okay.

What's a nam rikpa, Beth? Oh, it's a mentalist. It's a nickname for the something- Mind-only school followers.

They're called mentalists. Okay? And when you see mentalist, when you see nam rikpa, you have to think samtsampa.

Okay? The mentalist, meaning the mind-only school. Okay?

They got this idea called bakchang tenjung, and you're gonna describe it to us. I have a clue there in the English. Yeah, so for beginningless time, we have been calling things what...

We have been thinking of things as being outside. Yeah. And by having done so, like a gazillion times every 10 minutes, for a time with no beginning.

So we're talking about numbers we can't even imagine, conceive of. We just can't. It is now that way for us.

And my favorite example in the mind-only school is the feeling that objects are separated from me by a distance. So I'm looking at a white pillar right now in the lounge here, and it seems to be about three meters away from me. It definitely seems to be outside, but more specifically, it seems to be about three meters away.

And then somebody challenges the mind-only school and says, well, if the object's not outside, where did this sense of distance come from between me and outside objects? And then the mind-only school's answer is, if you think about something the wrong way for enough zillion eons, it'll become inherent in your thinking. So this called, and the seed, the mental seed that causes that is called tenjungi bachak, bachak tenjungi.

Tenjungi means firm because of repetition by billions of years. So the feeling that the pillar is out over there is coming from billions of years of mistaken talking about it. It's interesting.

They say it's talking about it. Referring to it as over there a billion times is enough to make it seem that way automatically. Yeah, sure.

Yeah. Sorry. Isn't it usually nunjungi bachak?

Is it the same thing? Yeah, you can say, yeah. Tenjungi wangshen la nangway dun yang yin.

It's an object that's appearing into the sense consciousness in a certain way. And ranggi tseng gyi ma du pa. It's not real, okay?

It doesn't exist by itself, okay? It's not real. That blue that's outside does not exist in a real way through any nature of its own, okay?

Ming dang de shakpa tsam yang yin. Can we say, though, that the pillar is just call over there? Yeah.

Yeah. Even in the mind-only school. In the middle-age school, that's the basis of all reality.

You just call it that. But in the mind-only school, this feeling that the pillar is over there is the same sort of thing. If you talk about it that way enough, it becomes over there for you, okay?

Ming dang de shakpa tsam yang yin. Shi tun jok she. Jok she means they know how to reconcile those two ideas.

What? Number one, it's not what it seems, but it is something that exists normally, because we've said it so many times. It feels like it exists, okay?

Does it really exist that way? No. Does it feel that way because we talk about it that way for zillions of years?

Yes. Can you reconcile those two? Jok she.

I can. I can. She means know how to.

Jok means establish it. It can be fake, and it can feel real, okay? It can be fake, and it can feel real.

Now, so that kind of reconciliation, they can do who? The mentalists. Yeah, nice.

The nam rikpas, the mentalists, okay? Third school knows how to do one kind of reconciliation. Is it over there?

No. Is it what it seems? No.

Does it feel that way? Yes. Can you reconcile the two?

Yeah, you can say it's over there, okay? But now, apparently there's another reconciliation that the mind-only school cannot do, and we assume somebody else can. Oh, yeah, and so here, Vimala, are you in the building?

Yeah, let me see. Anticipatory translation, okay? Where is he going next?

He says the mind-only school, they can reconcile that something's not really out there, but that it feels that way, because you've talked about it that way for billions of years. That we can reconcile, okay? But what can they not reconcile?

What two ideas are too strange for them?

[Speaker 3]
Here we go.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, something about cause and effect, right? Well, that's half of it. When we say reconcile, it's two ideas.

So cause and effect cannot be reconciled in their school with? With not being real. No, read the sentence here.

Oh, sorry. I was trying to find someone to read it for me. Ming dang dui shak pad sam la gyi dui juk mi she pad te dang ngo poy shi tun mi duk dong.

Yeah, so they cannot reconcile. They can reconcile appearing to be a way with not being that way. They can reconcile that.

As far as the distance of the pillar, okay? They can reconcile that. But what they cannot reconcile is that things could exist through ming and dang, and still be- Through name and, yeah, mental picture.

Still be gin dang. And still be cause and effect. Could the apparent distance between me and the pillar actually create another thing?

Is it real enough to trigger something else? And they would say, no way. It's not real.

And then, but the highest school, middle way says, yeah. It's so damn good, it can make stuff happen. In fact, that's the only way it can make stuff happen.

Yeah, well, okay. So here we get to this big, big reconciliation. Can you reconcile the fact that one thing triggers another when both of them exist only in name?

And they have no reality of their own, okay? Is it possible for something you think is there to create another thing you think is there in a way which you just think is there? And it's all real.

And the highest school says, that's exactly how things happen. When you write on a piece of paper with a pencil, the pencil's not writing on the paper, your mental seeds are creating the writing. The mental seeds create the paper, the mental seeds create the pencil, and the mental seeds create the appearance of letters when the pencil moves across the paper.

And it's all in your mind. And it's all happening through mental seeds. And it doesn't exist out there, okay, in that way.

They can reconcile it. A pencil can create letters, even though neither the paper, the pencil, or the letters exist on their own side. Okay, got it?

So the mind-only, sorry, the middle-grade school can reconcile that stuff, but the mind-only school cannot, okay? So they say, gyun de jog mi shepa. Jog mi shepa means they don't know how to reconcile it.

Their school is not that sophisticated, okay? Dang ngopi she teng min du do. They would say, if something is ming de shak tsam, it cannot be, at the same time, a ngop.

Yeah, they'd say that if something is merely established by name and mental image, then it can't be a functioning thing. Yeah, if something is a creation of names and thoughts, it cannot do something. But the high school says, that's the only way it could have done anything.

All right, got it? Okay. It'd be interesting to take this class and apply it to real life, but we won't.

All right, next dance. Who's gonna read for you? See, Fernanda Jimenez, would you like to read?

Okay, I can try.

[Speaker 2]
Yay, thank you.

[Speaker 1]
It's nice to have you here, and congratulations on your marriage, by the way.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you, thank you so much. Oh, I love you. I love you, too.

[Speaker 3]
They fear drang ner ram, bied lam on kyang, ming dang brah, sapa tsam, jin pin, tsa de lar ju, brah mi rung, bardi pam dod do.

[Speaker 1]
Nice. Thank you. You did that so well, you wanna do the one right before it?

Yeah. Can you do 341 also?

[Speaker 3]
Okay. dum ma thar Uma. Uma thar.

Uma. gyur ba ni ming tsam gyi sak pa la ryu brah jog shak pa po du byung ba jin no. Nice.

Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Very nice, thank you. That's, let's translate it. What's that Uma tell me your one?

So, you know, a middle way, a consequence branch of the middle way. Yeah, and by the way, he's done a very sensitive sidestep. He said, those middle way, those mind only guys don't know how to explain this.

But middle ways go, at least the higher half. And I was waiting for that. I'll say it again.

That mind only school, they don't know how to say something's cause and effect if it's created by your names, right? And then he says, but the middle way school, at least the upper half, you know, they know, they can establish you and Jay. Cause and effect.

With things that are only ming tsam. Things that are only established by name and mental image. And because they know how to do that, shepa, they are Atisha.

Yeah, in Sanskrit, Atisha. Perfect. They are far, they're great.

Okay, put the two, they are Atisha. That's Atisha's name's meaning, right? Put the two, ming tsam.

Yeah, okay. They are ming tsam, they are put the two. Okay, good.

Okay, Beth, who's the next victim? Oh, the next victim. I mean, the next lucky contestant on the Do Perfectly in Tibetan is Inky Dai.

Would you like to read?

[Speaker 2]
Inky.

[Speaker 1]
Inky.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, Singapore Inky?

[Speaker 1]
Yes, yes. Well, driving's the only way she's gonna be able to do it. No, she's driving, I think, somewhere.

Driving, oh, darn.

[Speaker 2]
How about Janine? How about Isabel? Isabel?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, thank you. Day, cheer, drunk, name, numb, way, lay. Jay, lay.

Jay, lay, thank you. Ong, yang, nung, dang, yang, ming, dang, zha. Jay, pa, tsam, ing, ching, cha, day, lar.

Dew, zha, mi, rang, ba, dee, pa, da, do, do. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Yay, thank you. Thank you. What's Chang'e Namdze, Beth?

It's Jason Kappa's book on the essence of eloquence. Yeah, separating what was meant only as a metaphor or figurative and literalism. Divide, Namdze here with the prenasal means dividing the literal from the figurative, right?

And by the way, the idea to write that book was one of the greatest philosophical achievements in the history of this planet, okay? And someday you'll appreciate it, okay? He said, ing yang means what?

What? What? Okay, if something is established only in chung, ming, and da.

Name and mental images. Yeah, names and mental images. Ching chay means from that point on.

Ching chay means from that point on. Once something, once you say that something exists in name only, once you say that something exists in name only, gyun de miru. Oh, then it's not suitable to talk about a causal, its ability to be causal, right?

Once you say something is made up by names alone, it's out of the realm of cause and effect. Something that exists just by calling it something puts it outside of the realm of cause and effect. Now, who would say that?

Dipa. Very tough word here, dipa. Di means what?

Some guy? Di means this. And dipa means this guy.

Who's dipa here?

[Speaker 2]
Thambikvas?

[Speaker 1]
Thambikvas.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
The mind-only school. And so Kappa doesn't do us the honor of identifying him. He says, this guy, this guy.

And you have to work backwards. If you're a translator, you have to, who the heck is he? Who's this guy for him?

It must be the mind-only school, because they think once something exists in name-only, it can no longer trigger something else. Got it? Cool.

But in the higher school? That's the only way I can. The trigger, the triggery, and the trigging, triggering, are all name-only, okay?

Okay, cool. Ditto, that's what they think, okay? We always, in Mixed Nuts, we always go to the original quotation in the database, and we always confirm that he's quoting it correctly, because sometimes they...

Yeah, go ahead. And am I also going to try and look for where he's, where mind-only would be the, that which is referred to by dipa? Yeah, we try to get a little context if we have time, which we don't.

Okay. Oh, there it is. And he did quote it correctly, okay?

Which makes sense, since he's so-called a student. All right. That's, who would you like to read, Bess?

I would like Jerome Giovinazzo to please read. Jerome. Jerome, wow.

Maybe.

[Speaker 2]
Come on, buddy.

[Speaker 1]
You gotta turn your microphone on. At best, I like it when they fake that the microphone's not on. I know.

He's probably making tea or something. Venerable Kari, would you please like to read? Uh-oh, she's making tea, too.

How about Katerinia Krania? I probably said that name really wrong. Katerinia Krania.

Katerina. Katerina? Krania.

No, I've said her name 40 times. Okay, how about Le Tuyen? How about, what?

Greer. Okay. Let's go to the Joc Michel, because it's been repeated here.

Yeah, they wouldn't be able to reconcile it. Yeah, they don't know how to. Once you say something exists in name only, we don't see how it could do anything.

They don't know how to establish that. Okay, Joc Michel. The Dun Mawangis, what's Dun Mawang mean?

So these, they would be the Sutras and Detailers, the Objectists. Yeah, and people who say there are things. The two schools are referred to collectively with the name, those who say that things are there.

But what things? Physical things. All things that are made up of little parts.

Individual parts. Outside. Outside things.

The full name is called Chiro Dun Dun Mawang. Oh, okay. So say that outside blues exist.

They got the blues. Okay, all right. The Detail.

Tso'i sap tokpe she shi dang dang, tokpe ne se rang gi tse nge gyur tu pa kyek na, de la yor pa jok michi na. If you refuse the idea that they could exist in and of themselves, okay, outside blue, okay, if you say they don't exist in and of themselves, and if you say somehow they are the result of dan tokpa, creations of names. Right.

If you say somehow they are the creations of names and ideas, then they would say, then I don't see how they could even exist. Okay, if you say to us, if you say to the two lower schools, they are simply creations of names, they will answer you, I don't see how they can exist. Okay, if they are creations of names, I don't see how they can exist.

By the way, and it's something, there's a link here to the mind-only school. There's a link here to one of the three characteristics of the mind-only school.

[Speaker 2]
An important link.

[Speaker 1]
Shenwang? No. You got two left.

It's gotta be a kundak. Kundak. Yeah, kundak, made up with names, right?

So, it's very interesting. It's very intriguing. He's describing how the lower schools can't handle it when something is described as existing only through name and thought.

But in the mind-only school also, that's the only category of the three which is unreal. Okay? That's the only category of the three great categories of the mind-only school, which is not denver dupe.

It's not real. It's not true. It's very interesting.

If you're very sensitive here, you can see he's playing with it. He's criticizing the lower two schools for something that the third school also has trouble with, because they misunderstood the second turning of the wheel. Okay?

Very interesting. It's very fascinating. Okay, here we go.

Before we go down, could you translate for me nesu? Yeah, it's a topic which they are incapable of reconciling. Yeah, nesu.

So nesu would be topic? This is not the shenshida. Yeah, oh, sorry.

In this case, something cannot be the thing, something cannot simultaneously be the object of our conception, and at the same time exist only in name. And that's the exist only in, nesu. Okay.

Exist only in, okay. Yeah, or an object of name only, you know. Okay.

Thank you so much. All right, who's going to read the next one? I'm going to.

TSE MA PA LA DRAG PA'I RANG SEMS NI MIN NONG ZHES GSUNGS PA'I DON YANG DE LTAR ZHES PAR BYA'O Good. What's a TSE MA PA? It's got to be a sutra, right?

Good. I had trouble with this one, and you got it right away. TSE MA means what in Sanskrit?

It means accurate perception. Oh, in Sanskrit, I don't know. Pramanas.

Pramanas. Pramanabhas. It says those Pramanabhas, which is a word that we know, but Beth's figured it out, and she's right.

Meaning those, which school out of the four? The second. Those number two school guys.

Yeah, Adam and Ben. Yeah, yeah. The guys who follow Dharmakirti and Dignaga, okay?

Those guys, when they talk about RANG SEMS, yay, we have a link to Adam's text. We just spent like a minute. Oh, right, right, right, sorry.

Last Saturday, if you remember. That was like two days ago. It was a different universe called Rimrock.

We talked about RANG SEM a lot. What is the difference between RANG SEM and QI TZIN? So, I had to get this right.

A RANG SEM is the manifest object? Good, just a copy set. Yeah, and then a QI TZIN would be the archetype.

Yeah, the mental picture of karma, and that's very important in the second school. Now it's a little bit different. You can see how they all reflect each other and how they all tie together, but the big idea in the second school is there's the cup you're drinking coffee out of, and there's the mental image of a cup, which is the one that kind of popped into your mind when your mom taught you the word cup, okay?

So he says, you may think that the idea of a cup, cup, the real cup, okay? The manifestation of the concept cup in the real world, which is called RANG TSEN. You may think that there's some reference here to the second school compared to this idea that the third school can't take it when you talk about something existing in name only, okay?

You may find some parallel here to the second school's idea of an actual cup, which is a reflection of a, what do you call it? Archetype. An archetype.

You may find some parallelism here. He says, men. But...

Somebody says, if you find this to be a reflection of the second school's idea of the cup that your mom taught you and then the real cup in the world, nah. It's like, nah, okay? Where did you pull that out of?

And then you have to know, you have to have memorized the BYANG CHEN YIN PO to know that that's the next sentence in Tsongkhapa's book. He says, don't take this too far. Don't try to tie this back to the second school.

It don't work. It doesn't work, okay? And you have to know, a geshe is normally required to memorize BYANG CHEN YIN PO.

You get an award. You get an extra cup of tea or something. All right, I didn't go for it.

I could buy my own tea, okay? So, all right. Who's next?

I would like to have... Oh, okay. Okay.

Say Mapa, la dragpe rangse ni minno she pa'ang, dun ma ni wangse ma truwa la suk sok ta ne ki shir rangwe dun tingi shel ja ni shir se ma ni she sok ki kap su dragpe rangse du min du par dun pa min te. Okay. Yeah, good.

Okay, now he's going deeper on Tsongkhapa's side comment. Okay. The important phrase here is in the fourth line when it says, shel ja ni shir se ma ni.

And let's get that clear, and then we can see what Tsongkhapa's saying not to think about.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
In general, this is a quotation from Dharmakirti in the opening lines of the Pramana-varitthika. And he's saying, there are two kinds of, what do you call it? Accurate perception.

Because there's two kinds of objects we want to perceive. What's it mean? Stanley looks like he's on it.

No.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's the... Is it the chi shu shen?

[Speaker 1]
Pramana. What are the two kinds of perception according? I mean, the whole subject matter of the Pramana-varitthika.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, well, the perception of direct and indirect.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. Yeah. You can say sense perception, for example, of blue.

And then indirect perception, which is what's in my hand behind my back. And then you're actually seeing a phone, but that's an indirect perception. Right.

Because there are two tools of perception, there are two types of objects to be perceived, mungir and kokir.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I was gonna say, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Manifested and hidden, apparent and hidden. Apparent and hidden, okay? And that's the whole premise of the Pramana-varitthika, okay?

Because there are two things you want to perceive, there's two tools of perception, direct perception, valid direct perception, and valid indirect perception, which itself has three types, but that's another thing. Okay, ready?

[Speaker 2]
So, Keith.

[Speaker 1]
Great idea. So that I can go home and have pizza or whatever, why don't you translate this sentence for next time, Mary? Okay.

And it's not easy, but I- I can tell. I believe that if you chew on it, you can do it. Okay.

Okay. Thank you, Keshla. Thank you, you did a good job.

This is extremely difficult book, and I'm really happy that you're working on it, and it would be very valuable to have translated in the world. Thank you. Yeah, thanks.

We'll see you guys on Saturday morning, just before. Cinnamon rolls. Thank you so much, Keshla.

I try to make people hungry in the class so they'll eat more at my cafe. Nick, going back to you. I would just say, everybody, if you want to stick around for some basic alphabet classes of these languages that we study, stick around, and WordSmith will share a class immediately following this one.

So just feel free to stay on the same link. Thank you, Word, so much for doing that. And if Francisco or Marina, if you could hand Word the host credential, then he'll be able to host the call.

So stick around. Thank you so much, Keshi Michael, for another Monday Night Schoen Songs Tower. This was amazing.

Good night, football. We're so lucky to get to hear this. We are.

Get some good sleep, Nick. It's like 2.30 in the morning, right? Tomorrow will be the good sleep.

Thank you. By the way, Nick, in my opinion, you could listen to this on a delay or something. You don't have to do this.

And I think if it disturbs your health, I think you should think about doing it on a delay. Okay. I'll pay attention.

I'll keep an eye on it and see how it's going. Thank you. I don't think it's conducive to your health.

You see how you feel. Okay. We can have Ben Kramer host the show.

Yeah. Who lives in a more reasonable time zone. All right, cool.

I'll let you know. No pressure, either way. Bye.

Bye. Thank you, guys. Thank you for coming, everybody.

Thank you so much. Thank you, guys. Thank you, everybody.

[Speaker 2]
Stick around for after my class, if you want.