Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 47

[Speaker 1]
Welcome back. For a minute there I thought you were being serious about taking an hour off. Wow, I was thinking about it.

Okay, everybody sit down. Gusuku is about to recite the sutra.

[Speaker 3]
All right.

[Speaker 1]
Please, please, Vimala. Please, please. Class, class time.

Okay, here we go. All right, let's go. Do you want to talk about, tell us about your book, Venerable Upala?

Okay, so this is a book called Interlude to Emptiness by Kedrup Je, one of the students, close students of Je Tsongkapa. And, you know, he says that we need to understand what emptiness is if we want to get out of the circle of suffering. And so because the Buddha talked about emptiness in ways that appear to be contradictory over the course of his, what, 80 years of teaching?

We should know when he was speaking literally and when he was speaking figuratively. And in order to understand the answer to that question, we look to two different, we'll say schools of thought. Master Asanga and his brother Vasubandhu were the mind only school, the charioteers, as Tim would say.

And then Arya Nagarjuna were the consequent branch of the Middle Way school. So we have been for many, many, many, many moons in the land of Arya Asanga and Master Vasubandhu looking into the mind only school and what it has to say about what's literal and what is figurative. We have been last term looking at basically sort of like how it is we perceive things.

So when an object appears to us, that appearance, like we automatically think, for example, this is black. And those words come to our mind and we learn that it's because of this propensity or bhakta called the propensity for articulation. So it's because of beginningless time for countless times over beginningless time.

We have looked at things outside of us, for example, and said, this glass is out here, over there, and I need to pick it up and bring it towards my lips in order to drink. That's the way that works. And so through that very, very strong propensity, that's pretty much the way we experience our world now.

So we then started looking at like how do the sutra school and the mind only school look at things a little differently? They both agree that the words, pen, that we apply to this thing do not exist by definition. But the sutra school would say that the way this appears in the way we think of it exists by definition, where the mind only school would say, no, that's not quite right.

And so we're kind of in the middle of that right now where K.J. has been talking about this. And now he's going to pull a quote that we're going to start with from The Essence of Eloquence on the Art of Interpretation by the glorious master, Jason Kappa. Okay, awesome introduction.

Let's get in. By the way, Utpala finished her first book, which is called Emptiness Meditations, and that took about five years. And it's our most popular book from the Diamond Cutter Press, and congratulations on that.

If you don't have a copy, you should try to get a copy. It explains the content of an emptiness meditation, and it explains in detail all the details of how to do the meditation and the different kinds of meditation that you can do. And it's a huge volume.

I think it's over 500 pages. I mean, if you go into retreat on a desert island or a diamond mountain, you should take that book with you. And it's enough material for a year or two to work on that.

So, if you're interested in meditation or you're interested in emptiness, get her first book, which is extremely... It's a masterpiece. The whole book is a masterpiece.

It's called Emptiness Meditations. There is a new... Is it out yet?

Diamond Cutter Press is working on a special app you can put on your phone. We'll give you the QR code any day. And it's a very elegant app and very beautiful app.

And it's chock full of all the books that we're translating. And we are working like dogs, not like John Foley's dogs who don't work at all. But we're working really, really hard.

And Venerable Utpala is probably the hardest worker of the Mixed Nuts. And she has... We depend on her for most of the editing.

And it's an extraordinarily time-consuming job. She works from morning to night, and we depend on her heavily. So, we're wishing you a long and healthy life.

All right. Speaking of health, how are you feeling, dear Lama? I got a bad cold, but I'm just toughing it out.

And that's what you have to do. Okay. Let's see here.

Let's go to this other book here. Come on. Here we go.

Okay. I'm coming back to you. All right.

Here we go to your book. Okay. Is that the right book?

Yes, but we're starting at 3.02. Yeah, okay. Let me do a little... Review?

Well, I'd like to do a progress report. Oh, yes. Especially for our great sponsors, especially the big one.

Yeah, this is 150,000 Tibetan words. It's going to take... The English book will be 2,000 pages.

We have to divide it into five different volumes. Her new book will go out in... Kative J calls his book a little emptiness break.

The word is tong tun, which means a tiny emptiness break, and it's 2,000 pages long. Those of you who studied The Lion's Dance, it comes from here. It's extremely deep.

It's an extremely important book in Buddhism. It's one of the greatest books ever written on emptiness. I think the first book of the five volumes will be done, I predict, in 2025.

We're working in that kind of timeframe. When I see Xiaoping, I always like to tell her that her new book, which she will be starting in a few weeks, after seven years with the beginner's version, is going to take over 50 years to finish. How we're going to do that, we just have to figure it out.

All right. Tim's book is 56 years. Okay.

As Venerable Utpal mentioned, he's quoting Tsongkhapa's famous book, Comparing the Mind-Only School to the Middle Way School, which was all taught as a reaction to an indignant question from a student to Lord Buddha. What the are you talking about? First you teach emptiness this way, and then you teach emptiness this way.

Which one's correct? That's a famous, famous argument. It's good.

It's heartening for me to see that the Buddha was hassled by his students. It makes me feel like I'm in the right place. I don't know.

She seemed to ask it very, very diplomatically and respectfully.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Maybe I'm just, what do you call it? Projecting. Okay.

All right. So, Venerable Utpal, let's have you read for a couple paragraphs, and then you can start picking on other people. Okay.

Nice. Okay. So, this is about the process of calling something, something.

Okay? And when you are, when you see a color blue, we can agree, we had Adam's text this morning, right? We can agree that this is a cup, and then you give it the name cup.

So first there's a cup, and then it's sitting out there on the table, and then everyone agrees on what name to call it. Oh, let's call it Shashko, and let's call it cup or Kayu. Let's give it a name, okay?

So that's how things feel. It exists first, and then you give it a name. Higher school of Buddhism would say, it exists because you give it a name.

It only exists after you give it a name, okay? So what does the Mind-Only school say about this question? We had Adam's version this morning.

This is a rongdo, there's rongchen. This is the cup exist in the world. And then there's chitsen, which is the archetype cup.

And you can think of the cup on the table in terms of the general category of... And then there's many kinds of cups under that archetype. But what about the Mind-Only school?

Because don't forget, they think the cup's color, for example, is actually in your mind, inside your mind, and you are watching a color come out of a bok chok. And you misinterpret it to be on the outside. That's the Mind-Only school.

What's the status of the cup in the Mind-Only school before you give it a name, okay? And, okay, in the higher school, only when you give it a name is it a thing. And the name is the picture.

In the beginning, there was the word, right? So, okay, here we go. suk shei tan yi, what's suk shei tan yi?

The phrase, visible form. Yeah, the word, quote, visible stuff, or something you can see, right? Tan yi tak pa means what?

Labeled with the words. Yeah, and we... When you label it.

We did a very interesting class for the university in Kyoto last week about the idea of parikalpita. What were we talking about?

[Speaker 2]
Leadership.

[Speaker 1]
Leadership, what did we do?

[Speaker 2]
Value-centered leadership.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, it's called value-centered leadership. Anyway, we were talking about how names are tied onto objects, almost like putting a halter on an animal or a halter on a dress, which is what comes from the word parikalpita. Kalpita came into English as halter, meaning you kind of tie a name onto the thing with this thing around the neck, you know?

So, tan yi tak pay shei, when you apply that name, nunpo suk tan yi dok pay shee kyenpa. The blue is the she for dokpa, the tan yi. The blue is the basis.

Yeah, first there's a blue, and then you call it blue. This is mind-only. First there's a blue, and then you give it the name blue.

Okay? Or a form, or a visible form. De jik dar nangwa depa na.

Now, how does the cup feel in the mind-only school, before you name it? How does the cup feel? Yeah, how does it feel to you?

It feels to be outside. Before you call it a cup. Do you mean it feels to be outside?

Yeah, or how does it feel to normal people? Oh, it's sort of automatically, the moment you lay your eyes upon it, it's a cup. Yeah, it can be out there for a small child who doesn't know the word yet.

We call dat jang gi kye bu mayinpa, a person who doesn't know the word yet, cup. It's still out there. There's still something out there.

He doesn't know, or she doesn't know to call it cup yet, but it's sitting out there. It's a real thing out there. Then later you give it a name.

So he says, de jik dar nangwa depa na. If we look at how this process appears to be happening, that cup is sitting out there, ne lu kyi wang kyi, in and of itself, from its own side. It appears to be, cup, before you call it cup, this white thing on the table.

It looks like it's sitting there on its own. It's not depending on you. It doesn't depend on you, okay?

And it hasn't gotten a name, sorry, it hasn't gotten a ming yet, and it hasn't gotten a da yet. What's that mean, Venerable Upala? A mental image.

Yeah, the da part means mental image. What's the ming part mean? The name, you give it, cup.

Yeah, so this is very, very important in Buddhism. There's a distinction between the name and the sign. Da means sign or indicator.

There's a difference between the name and the mental image. And it looks like before you give it a name, and even before you apply the image of a cup to it that your mom taught you, it's still something out there. It still feels like that.

Ming dang de shakpa mayin bar, min bar. Without names yet, without mental pictures yet, it looks like it's already out there on its own, okay? And that's everybody except the middle way school.

They would say that. Ne lu kyi wang gi means it's just sitting out there on its own, okay? Du pa shin du nang lo, that's the way it seems.

It seems like cup was out there on its own before you thought of it as cup, before you knew the word cup, and before you thought of it as cup. Even if you didn't ever learn the word cup, even if you're some kind of mentally handicapped person, you would still see some kind of thing out there, okay? Without the name and without the mental image, okay?

Shin du nang, that's the way things appear to be. Now, I guess he's gonna say something else. Can I ask a question first?

It sounded like you're talking about things happening in a kind of sequential order, and where is that in the Tibetan? Tani dope shi. Tani dope shi is a beautiful expression because something out there waiting to be named.

That's why I got the time, that's how I got the time here. This is the present future tense of apply a name. So something waiting out there to be named, and you haven't yet given the name, and it appears like that cup thing that's not cup yet because you haven't thought of it as cup yet, and you haven't named it cup yet, but there's some kind of white clump out on the table, okay?

Independent of names and pictures. Ming de shakpa mayinpa. And it seems to be sitting there, out there, of its own accord.

Of its own picture, yeah. Rang gi ne luk gi wang gi. It seems to be out there.

So get this, in these lower schools, when you name an object something, the object comes first, it doesn't have a name yet, then you come along and you choose a name and you put the name on it. And you also put the concept on it. That's not the way it's happening in the highest school.

You create it with your name, which, and in that case, name means your mental concept, and you don't see it as a chew toy. Got it? So how do lower schools feel about the object before you name it?

Somehow it's kind of out there, definitely in Adam's text this morning. And now we're kind of flirting around with mind-only school, that's more touchy. Here we go.

Okay, please read, Bedava Upala, read this one yourself and then we'll give it to somebody else. NGON PO DE CI THAR NANG BA BZHIN DU GRUB PAR BRDZIN PA NI NGON PO LA GZUGS SO ZHES MING DU THAG PA LA RANG GI BRTZE NI GYI GRUB PAR BRDZIN PA'I DRON DOG YIN LA Yeah, NGON PO DE CI THAR NANG BA BZHIN DU, if the blue exists in the way it seems to, and you hold it that way, then NGON PO LA GZUGS SO ZHES MING DU THAG PA LA and when you call the thing cup, okay, here it's blue, right? When you call the thing cup, it seems like RANG GI BRTZE NI GYI GRUB PAR, it seems like that name is natural to that object.

It seems like that name is natural to that object. It belongs to that object, okay? GRUB PAR BRDZIN PA, that's DRON DOG.

That's overestimation. Yeah, that's what we call in the study of the art of interpretation, that's what we call overestimation. You are overestimating.

You believe that the name cup belongs on the object that you're looking at, and you think that's a natural and automatic relationship. And by the way, that belief is the foundation for a lot of the conflict in history. Different parties, different countries, different people believe that something should be something automatically.

And we studied it this morning. We had a little private class this morning about these beliefs that tend to cause conflict, global conflict. And a lot of it comes from here.

It comes from the assumption that this thing deserves this name. Neil Young's music deserves the name masterpiece. Right, Stanley?

He knows how to make me happy. All right, Venerable Upala, how about you do one more, because it's kind of nasty. I know, I tried to translate this one, and it was a challenge.

Yeah, it's a terrible, Terribly difficult sentence. And that's why, by the way, we haven't tackled this book yet. I started it a couple of years ago, and I haven't finished it.

Chiba- I've been hunting all over for it. I was hoping that you had done this. Not yet.

Chiba-Namla-Yepa-Ngar-Shepa-Dey, Druk-Khu. So- As we explained earlier, this is rather childish. Yeah, two chibas, two of the perceptions of chiba.

Two of the perceptions, okay. What's a chiba? A child.

Two-year-old. I much prefer two-year-old. It has all the connotations in English.

It means a person who has not seen emptiness directly yet. Anyone who has not seen emptiness directly yet, relatively speaking, is acting like a two-year-old all the time. Okay.

Yeah, my tree's already two and a half, so. Okay. Dey, Druk-Ching, Den-Dang, Zin-Tang, Dey, Tey, Den-Du.

And they believe that the way they hold it, zin-tang, is correct. There's a clump out there that deserves to be called cup, and then we come along and we give it the name cup. Somehow there is a...

Somehow there's an archetypical cup on the table, and then we come along and we name it cup. But it deserves the name. It is deserving of that name, okay?

We don't call it a fish or something like that, okay? Tey, den-du, dun-ma. Dun-ma, dey, nyi, what's that mean?

Those are the two schools known as objectists. By the way, if you had to add a word to dun-ma, what would it be? It would...

chi-rul-dun-ma-wa? Yeah, nice. Chi-dun-ma.

Chi-dun-ma. What's that mean? Chi-dun-ma, it's about outer objects.

Yeah, they believe things are outside of us. When they see color blue, they believe it's outside of us. Those are the two lower schools of the four, Abhidharma and logic schools.

They believe the cup truly is outside of us. And the color blue. So collectively, we call them objectists and talkers.

Okay, who's underwater? I don't know. Chi-dun-ma-wa, dey, nyi, those two schools, all right?

Kyang-du-pay, they can accept all that. There is a thing out there. It deserves the name we give it.

Dray-ju-jey rang-do, tok-tak yin-kyang. Dray-ju-jey rang-do, tok-tak yin-kyang, dey shin-do, rang-ten, ong-way, nuk-ten, kal-at-sung. Kal-at-sung means, how could you say that they are the same?

Right. How can you say that somebody's thinking the same as somebody else, okay? Who are the two people?

I'm not sure yet. Kyang-du-pay, dray-ju-jey, dray-ju-ja means the thing that the name is, of what the name is referring to, the clump out on the table before it got the name cup, rang-do, in and of itself. And rang-do can mean rang-ten, okay?

The cup out there on its own before it got the name cup. Okay, it's out there on its own before you give it the name cup. Ju-ja means the thing you are talking about when you say cup, okay?

So the clump out there on its own before you call it cup. Tok-tak yin-kyang, that's a theoretical thing. It's not a solid thing.

Okay, tok-pay tak-sam means just the creation of your mind. Okay, tok-pay tak-pa. Sam, yin-kyang, the shin-dok, the shin-dok, the archetype, du, rang-ten du-ongway luk-teng-ka-la-tsung, how can you say that the actual object is what you come out with after you apply the name?

The pen was a pen before you thought of it as a pen. Lower school. Higher school?

The pen was a pen. After you say there was an object. Before you thought of it as a pen, okay?

So, ka-la-tsung means, how can you suggest that these two systems are even similar? This morning it was more clear. It was in the highest school, once you give it a name, it is the thing, right?

And then in the lower school, it's waiting to get a name, okay? It's named from its own side. There's a thing there of its own, and then there's an archetype applied to it.

A name is applied to it, and it's coming from its own side. And then in the highest school, the pen's a pen when you think of it as a pen, because your seed's opened, okay? Tsunpay deng dey-ta shepa chok.

You can understand everything from this quotation. I always go and check the quotation, and we're not done with the quotation. We should work on it more.

It's enough for today, but it's good to go check the original data in John's database, and we did go and check it, and at least he didn't misquote his- Teacher. Teacher, okay? So he took the quotation correctly from Je Tsongkhapa, okay?

This is, K. Duk-che wrote this book, okay? Okay, okay.

K. Duk-che is special because the day he met him, Tsongkhapa took him into a tantric retreat. He gave him initiation and took him into a retreat the day he met him.

He saw that much promise in him. So every time I tried to do that, it was a miserable failure. So, just so you know.

All right, here we go. And you want to choose somebody else, Utpala? Yeah, sure.

Venerable Chinzum, please.

[Speaker 2]
Venerable Chinzum speaks in Cherokee. Okay. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Dena, therefore, wang che la, to the eye consciousness that's perceiving blue, for example. We've been talking about how you identify the essence of the object, and you say something about the object, okay? So that's called ngo dang kyepar.

Say ngo. Ngo. Dang.

Dang. Kyepar. You not only call it blue, you might also call it impermanent, or changing, or something like that.

So it's one thing to call a color blue. That's called the essence name. And then you have the detail name, which is called panyi.

Oh, sorry, kyepar, which is to say this blue is impermanent, or something like that. It's not going to last. Okay.

So he says, you apply these names to the color. You say, A, this is blue, identifying its essence. And then you say, that's going to pass.

This too will pass. Okay. And then you identify its quality, which is impermanence, in this case.

kyepar kyi tanyi de dakar la jukpay. When you look for the thing that you are calling blue, or you are calling it's going to change. Okay.

shir nangway nangso tar shen ne. And you have a certain feeling about how it appears to you. And you say, this is blue.

This sukso, this is a blue. shesokyi tanyi jepe topa mi. Would you think that the state of mind that calls blue, blue, is mistaken or correct?

Well, the Sutra school would say you're correct. Yeah. Okay.

The state of mind that calls blue, blue, is not wrong. So here it says, topa ni, that idea that blue is blue, lok shay mayin. It's not what, lok shay?

It's not wrong. It's not a delusion. It is blue.

Can you call it blue? Yeah, you can call it blue. But, de shen so tar kyi tanyi tsam du yupe kun tat la.

But, does it exist the way you think it does? Okay, how do you feel about the blue? Do you identify it as blue?

Yes. How do you feel about that blue? What's sitting out there?

Okay, you're already wrong. Why? It's not out there.

We're in the mind-only school. We're in the mind-only school. It's part of your foundation consciousness.

You are watching a blue appearing in your own mind. Okay, the minute you think it's outside, the minute you feel it's outside, you are mistaken. Is it wrong to call blue, blue?

Is it wrong to think of blue the way you feel it is? Yeah, you're wrong, okay? In the mind-only school, okay?

Therefore, the existence of blue, that a blue which exists the way you think it exists, as an outside thing, is kun tak, in the three qualities of the mind-only system. shen wang, yong du, kun tak, okay? We had it 25 years ago at the monastery.

You probably heard the tapes are great, by the way. Okay, shen wang means? Changing things.

Changing things. Things which are at the mercy of other things. That's literally what the word is.

Changing things are at the mercy of their causes. So we call them at the mercy, shen wang. They are at the mercy, okay?

And then there's, shen wang, yong du. Yong du is the lack of... Totality.

Yeah, yeah, it just means emptiness, okay? The lack of being, the lack of being outside, for example, in the mind-only school. The absence of a thing being outside is called, in the mind-only school is emptiness, which we call yong du, totality, okay?

And then the third quality of the mind-only school is kun tak, which we were exploring last week with the university students. But in mind-only school, kun tak means fake, or just called that. Is the blue outside?

[Speaker 3]
No.

[Speaker 1]
If you say it's outside, that's kun tak. Kun tak. And there's a famous formula among these three, which we taught in CSP seven years ago.

There's a famous formula here. shen wang minus kun tak equals yong du. You could say that, yeah.

If you take all the things in the world which are caused by other things, and you subtract all the misperceptions you have about them, you reach emptiness. And that's the formula. It's called the mind-only school formula.

The blue, which is, is there a blue? Yes. Is it at the mercy of other causes?

Yes. Why? It comes from a seed in my foundation consciousness.

Is it a created thing? Yes. Is it a made thing?

Yes. Why? Because it's coming out of a seed in my foundation consciousness.

Does it exist outside? No. Does it look like it exists outside?

Yes. Is there a fake appearance of it existing outside? Yes.

Does that fake appearance exist? Yes. Can we subtract it from the way it really is?

Yes. And when you cancel a blue that could exist outside the way it seems to be, you reach emptiness. You took the gaccha out, and you got to emptiness, okay?

That's the mind-only formula, okay? So here, so he says, look, it's no problem to say that this is blue. That's not a problem.

To say, to give qualities of the blue or characteristics of the blue, this blue is changing moment by moment. That's okay. You can give those qualities.

Can you call it blue? Yes. Is there anything about that that you're wrong about?

Yeah. What? Shambha.

In the next to last line. It feels outside. It feels to be outside of me.

I don't naturally feel, until I go to Buddhism class, that mind-only Buddhism class, that I'm looking at it inside my mind. It feels outside. Why does it feel outside?

It's the... You articulated that for countless eons. Because we called it outside for countless lifetimes, it starts to feel outside.

The reason blue feels outside to you is that you called it that for countless lifetimes. For lifetimes without beginning, I'm looking at Connie's coat. For lifetimes without beginning, me and my family and my country have called that an outside object.

And then it starts to feel that way. It starts to feel that way. And that's ignorance in this school.

Okay, cool. But the seed for that is very interesting. It's countless lifetimes of calling it outside have made it feel outside.

And specifically, the feeling of how many inches away is a result of countless lifetimes of using the word over there. It's really interesting. The feeling that she's over there, the feeling that Connie's coat is over there and like three meters away is only a result of countless lifetimes of thinking of it the wrong way.

The feeling of distance between me and Connie's blue coat is real. And it's a result of countless lifetimes of thinking the wrong way. It's very interesting.

The word outside came from billions of years of talking about it that way. And then we started to believe it in the mind only school. All right.

RANG BZHES SU GSUNG BLO DANG KHYAD PA'I KYI THA GNYEN NAS ZHUGS RANG BZHIG RIGS PA'I NYES RIGS PA'I YING DGAR GZHAN PA'I DRAG PA NI GZHAN TSUL DGAR If we believe it's outside the way it feels to be outside, then THA GNYEN DU DBANG, this THA GNYEN, by the way, doesn't mean a term applied to the object. This just means even nominally, not even talking about ultimate. So when you say THA GNYEN DU DBANG, it's not the same as THA GNYEN we've been having through this whole discussion, meaning the word that you apply to blue.

So it's be careful with this THA GNYEN here. It doesn't mean in name only. It just means, even just in normal conversation here, it means that MA GRUB PA'I LOGS SHES YIN PAS RTOG PA THAMS CAD CIG TU MI GZUNG NGO MA GRUB PA'I LOGS SHES YIN PAS It's a wrong...

That feeling is mistaken. So therefore, RTOG PA THAMS CAD CIG TU MI GZUNG NGO Therefore, all ideas you might have in your mind don't have the same ontological status. Some of the ideas in your head are correct.

Many of the ideas in your mind are completely wrong. The feeling in your mind that blue is outside is completely wrong. But that doesn't mean that all feelings you ever have are completely wrong.

Okay? That's what he's saying. Who's next, Venerable Upama?

Rebecca, are you here? You want to come up and suffer?

[Speaker 2]
Yes, I'd like to suffer.

[Speaker 1]
Come on. Yeah, it's a mom. Yeah, make her suffer.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, boy.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Hi, Upama. Hi. Okay.

NGUN PO NGUN PO'I THA GNE K'I SHI RANG DEN GYI TSE NI K'I MA GRUB KYANG NGO PO NGUN PO RANG GI TSE NI K'I GRUB PA THAR WANG SHE LA NGUN PO NGUN PO'I THA GNE N'GRUB PA'I SHI NANG TSUL THAR RANG GYI TSE NI K'I MA GRUB KYANG NGUN PO NGUN PO RANG NGANG WEI NANG TSUL THAR RANG GYI TSE NI K'I GRUB LA NANG TSUL DE THAR NZIN PA'I THOK PA'I SHEN PA LA THAR YANG SHEN PA LA THAR YANG RANG GYI TSE NI K'I GRUB WO

[Speaker 1]
Wow, GRUB WO. Okay, good. Which we said more frequently, NGUN PO or RANG GI TSE NI K'I GRUB PA?

Very good. RANG GI TSE NI K'I GRUB PA means exist in and of itself. Exist by definition.

TSE NI means definition. RANG GI TSE NI K'I GRUB PA exists by definition. Think of it as automatic or natural.

RANG GI TSE NI K'I GRUB PA That's going to come up a lot in this sentence. Is it natural? Is it existing from its own side?

Does it exist by definition? In higher middle way? Nothing is.

But in this school, some things are natural and some things are artificial. LUM PO LUM PO THAI NYID KYI SHER Is blue what you call blue automatically?

[Speaker 3]
Not even in this school.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, he says RANG GI TSE NI K'I MA GRUB. It is not natural. It is artificial.

Is blue what you call blue automatically? No, we could have called it fish, and we could have called it yellow. It's not natural.

RANG GI TSE NI K'I MA GRUB KYANG But is blue naturally blue?

[Speaker 3]
What?

[Speaker 1]
Is the fact that blue is blue natural? No. Okay, the first question was, is blue naturally called blue?

And he said no. I mean, every language has a different word. If it were naturally called blue, everybody would call it blue.

But we call it TSE NI or some other word. So is the fact that blue is called blue, does that exist by definition? He said no.

Is the fact that blue is blue, does that exist by definition?

[Speaker 3]
I guess in this school it does.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, in this school they say it is. It does. Blue is blue by nature.

Blue is not called BLA LA WU by nature. But blue is blue by nature. WANG CHEN LANG MONG PO NGON PA'I THA GNYIS DUG PAS KYI SHI NANG TSUL THA RANG GI TSE NI K'I MA GRUB KYANG Does blue exist as the object of the name blue from its own sign, naturally?

Is blue what you should call blue naturally from its own sign?

[Speaker 3]
No.

[Speaker 1]
No. No. Okay.

RANG GI TSE NI K'I MA GRUB. MA GRUB. KYANG.

What's KYANG? But, but when blue appears to be blue, is that natural?

[Speaker 3]
It is.

[Speaker 1]
They say yes. It is. It is natural.

So, Is it natural for us to interpret blue the way it feels to be?

[Speaker 3]
No. Careful.

[Speaker 1]
Is it natural for us to think of blue the way it feels to be?

[Speaker 2]
It's a visual.

[Speaker 1]
Is it natural? We're not pushing it. No.

Listen. I'm going to say it again. Is it natural for us to feel that blue is outside?

Yes.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
RANG GI TSE NI K'I GRUB. He says here. Okay.

All right. That's natural. Is it correct?

[Speaker 3]
No.

[Speaker 1]
No. Is it natural?

[Speaker 3]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Yes. Okay. Ah, since that one was so easy.

Maybe. Who do you want to go?

[Speaker 3]
Is it natural meaning of feeling about blue being outside or deserving the name blue? That feeling is natural or RANG GI TSE NI K'I GRUB PA?

[Speaker 1]
Here he's kind of saying the feeling that it's outside when you hold it to be outside is natural. The feeling is natural.

[Speaker 3]
What does it mean?

[Speaker 1]
Everybody has it. It means it's normal. It's wrong, but it's normal.

Things can be wrong and normal. All right. I like a lot of things.

Okay. Do you want a new reader, Utpala? I would like Rebecca to please continue.

[Speaker 2]
All right. NGOS PO MA YIN KYANG Good.

[Speaker 1]
MIG SHES LA NGON PO NGON PO'I THA GNAD GYUG PA'I ZHIG RNAM SONG Does it appear to the eye consciousness that blue should be called blue? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. It feels like that should be blue to your eyes. But that's just the LANG RJE.

I don't know why, but they pre-nasal it. LANG RJE. What's a LAK RJE?

Impression? Yeah. Here's LAK.

LAK means hand. And you have some mud and you press your hand into it. That's called a print.

So RJE means a print. LAK RJE means it's an imprint. LAK RJE means the result of a mental imprint.

It means handprint. And then we have GANG RJE, footprint. Okay.

So, and RJE means an after effect. Okay. Like, okay.

Anyway, why does MIG SHES LA NGON PO NGON PO'I THA GNAD GYUG PA'I ZHIG RNAM SONG Why does blue appear to be... Why does it appear to you when you look at blue that it should be called blue? Or it deserves to be called blue?

And any reasonable person would call it blue. Why do you think that way? Why does it feel...

Because of the imprint of the potential for articulation. Yeah. I mean, or to put it in normal terms, it's called the billions of years of calling it that.

Okay. You have called that color blue for billions of lifetimes. Now you think it's natural.

Okay. And that's a LAK RJE. That's a...

It's like a clue that a detective finds after a murder in the apartment, and they go find LAK RJES. You know, so the fact that you think blue should be called blue, or any other opinion you have about life, is just a... It's just a clue left behind by the criminal.

How's that? All right. All right.

Billion-year criminal. All right. LAK RJE YIN PA'I.

Therefore, DER DE'I NANG ZIL THAR GYI SDOD MING DANG THOB PA'I THAG PA TZAM GYI SDOD NYIN PA'I PHYIR Therefore, the fact that blue appears to you as something that you should call blue, is just MING DE'I THAG TZAM. It's just in name only. It's not real.

TZAM GYI SDOD. That's real KUN THAG. That's real made up.

That's a fantasy of your mind. And in the mind-only school, KUN THAG is a way of saying gotcha. Something made up by your mind.

Creation of your mind is another way to say the thing that emptiness is emptier. To think that blue should be called blue, to think that blue is over there, those are all clues that you must have been thinking the wrong way for billions of years. And it's only in name that her code is over there.

It's a sheer creation of words. And in the highest school, that's everything. That's reality.

In the mind-only school, that's gotcha. That's just a creation of memes. You call it blue for millions of years, now you think it has to be blue.

But it's just a fantasy. It's just a made up thing. It's a creation of memes.

In this mind-only school, that's fake reality. That's unreal. That's what emptiness is emptiness of.

Empty of, it's gotcha. Okay. Therefore, this way that blue appears to you is not even a lupo.

Not even a real thing. It's not even a real thing, okay? Lupo mayi.

It's not a functioning thing in any way, okay? Does it appear to... Does it appear that blue is out there all along?

Yes. Is it just something you say that and it's not real? Yes.

Therefore, can it be a thing? No. Is the impression a thing?

Yes. Is the truth of the impression a thing? No.

Got it? Does it appear that way to everybody? Yes.

Is that real? Yes. But is it correct?

No. Got it? Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Did we just differentiate between the... I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry.

The...

[Speaker 1]
We started late.

[Speaker 3]
The kundat of a thing being out there or deserving its name by definition versus the feeling of a thing deserving its given name by definition and one of those existed by definition, the other didn't.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the feeling existed by definition and it does exist. But the... Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Is the feeling the state of mind which is engaging in that kundat?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and it's mistaken, but it's totally real. Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Because it's Shiva, it's mind.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and in fact, the evidence that it's real is that it can cause so many wars, for example. It's... Opinions about millions are real.

They... The fact that they can cause wars means that they are true causes because they have results. So misperceptions are very real and they have their own repercussions and that those repercussions confirm that they are real.

[Speaker 3]
Thank you, Fos.

[Speaker 1]
I deserve some healthy Chinese food. No. Yes.

Okay, we'll see you guys in 10 minutes. The Sedona crew is going to be busy.

[Speaker 2]
What is today?

[Speaker 1]
Did you want me to do anything for next time or did you want me to edit the other book? I think that the next two paragraphs would be nice. Okay.

Okay. What's the date today? Okay, see you guys soon.

Oops. Thanks, Geshe-la. Thank you, Geshe-la.

10 minutes. 10 minutes to eat, Micah? Even my boss in the dining business gave me 15 minutes.

He sounds like a nice guy. However long you want, Geshe-la. Take your time.

[Speaker 2]
I'm just kidding. I'm going to eat.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, bye. See you guys soon.