Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 29

[Speaker 1]
Hi, Utpala, hi. Hi. Hi, okay, I'm going to do my spiel for ten minutes, okay?

Great. Here we go. I'm almost done, you guys.

I'll do it every five years or so. Uh-oh, let me see. Yeah, so I really encourage the translators to get your courses into the Worldview courses.

For example, here's the SCIM College, and they're using a lot of your books in their courses already. And Nick, venerable Nick, venerable Nick, sorry. Nick is helping to get those books into the DCI courses.

And Amalie is helping a lot. Hi, Amalie. Geshe Michael wants to say hi to you again.

Hi, Amalie. Hi, Amalie. Hi.

Where are you going? Oh, you're going, yeah, okay. Yeah, then it's up to you guys to sell your books.

You could go to Seiji and say, look, my Emptiness Meditation book is perfect for your next course, and I'd like to see you guys use these sections. And all of the people who are watching right now, the Mixed Nuts course, you could all help us. We need passionate, creative people to help make this happen, who can invest their time.

And we need the same kind of management people to direct them to be more creative in creating courses and programs based on these books. These books are priceless sources for courses. I use them every single day for amazing courses.

I'm working on a fiction book this week, and I'm using the translations. So please, please, you translators, you're not just... In Tibetan it's called, you're not just exchanging words.

You're not just trading Tibetan for English. You're creating courses that can help the whole world. That's part of your translator duty.

All right, what's the next thing here? We need more English editors. The one great editor we have is overworked completely.

She's underwater all the time, about 3,000 feet down. And we really need help. Right, Utpala?

We really, really need help for English editors. Rebecca has been helping with some work. And if you can help, if you guys can help with the editing, or maybe you know some marketing.

Arina Garcia helped us recently with some of the marketing. Just anybody can show up and help us. And we need passionate people.

We need excited people like these guys. And that's the opposite of nyop dop for $50. Nyop dop.

Something that proves it based on the power of the thing? No, that's nyop dop. Nyop dop is a colloquial word that means uninspired, unpassionate, not exactly lazy, but just uninspired people.

They don't think about what courses could be made from their book. They're not out trying to get their book into the mainstream of the world civilization. Like that.

They're just kind of hanging out. That's called nyop dop. All right.

I wanted to say a little bit about Mixed Nut Standards. In case you guys, Nick, ever want to buy me another car, a second car, I appreciate the blue Toyota.

[Speaker 3]
You're ready for the robots?

[Speaker 1]
This is a 1955 Bentley Mini Chomp. And I looked it up, and I think we can get one for $1.4 million. And you know what's happening now?

Google is swamping all my online work with antique cars over $1 million. Along with the underwear I bought last week for myself. So I'm getting those two ads.

So why am I – why do I talk about this car? And I really want our standards to be first class, you know? This is the ultimate, in my mind, the ultimate automobile ever made.

I'm sorry, Stanley. It's not Tesla. I'm sorry, Seiji.

It's this Bentley. It is the most elegant and best running car, I think. One of the best ever made, you know?

So I want Mixed Nuts to have a reputation for excellent work. No compromises, okay? I don't want – if it takes us five hours to find a quotation, we take the five hours.

And I think you guys can see that this is the standard that I personally have for this work. I'm lazy about cleaning my house, right, Stanley? I'm lazy about my garden.

My garden looks like a nuclear bomb. I just gave it to the gophers. I gave it up to the gophers.

And they ate everything. There's like two plants left. But as far as my translation work and my Mixed Nuts teaching classes, I do not cut corners.

If I have to sit there for five hours to find something, I will do it. And I think Mixed Nuts, that should be our standard. And to be honest, the standard that we already have, the books we have already put out, for example, Venerable Utpala's book, the standard is extremely high.

And I was in Princeton University, and there's nobody doing work like this. Nobody. And I want us to keep that reputation.

I do not want to be lazy. I don't want to guess what something is. I do not believe the Internet.

I don't use the Internet at all. Rarely, to find out some Sanskrit mountain or something. But I don't trust the Internet.

I don't trust other people. I trust the great classics. And we always go to the great classics, and we find what we're looking for.

And our work is a Bentley 1955 Minichon. Okay. Stanley, you want the bad news?

[Speaker 3]
The bad news?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. You can get this one for $15. It's a plastic bottle.

I'm sorry.

[Speaker 2]
I thought so.

[Speaker 1]
We're going to get into that in Utpala's text. We're going to get into deceptive reality right now. Are we going to go now?

Yeah, I'm turning it over to you, and I'm just saying this is a segue to deceptive reality. Okay. I was deceived.

It's too clean, Stanley.

[Speaker 2]
Wait, where's Utpala?

[Speaker 1]
She's here, and she's going to make you suffer now. Oh, okay. Okay, so first I wanted to apologize for last time when I rebooted without telling you.

I just left, so I apologize that I did that. Yay, okay. So here we go, the quiz for Class 4.

So again, what we're doing is I'm giving you answers, and I would like for you to give me questions. The answer is, well then, all causes and effects would have to be empty of causes and effects, and it would be like a rabbit's horns. So there's something.

What is if karma's consequences was empty itself? One of those words was right.

[Speaker 3]
What is deceptive reality? I don't know.

[Speaker 1]
So we were talking about different kinds of emptiness at this point in the text. Remember the different kinds of emptiness? So what is the emptiness of cause and effect?

Is it the emptiness of emptiness? No, not quite. What if empty things didn't function?

What would be the logical consequence if the meaning of something being empty was that it was empty of itself?

[Speaker 3]
Oh, yeah. Totally going to say that.

[Speaker 1]
Nice, nice. That's nice. Yeah.

The object and the holder of the object appear to be separated at a distance. What is one of the mind-only cockjaws? Oh, nice.

Well, wait, what were we talking about in the text the last time? We weren't talking about cockjaws. We weren't talking about cockjaws?

What is it to be deceptive in the mind-only school? No. I'll give you credit.

What do followers of the mind-only school mean when they say something is illusory?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, that's pretty close.

[Speaker 1]
Pretty close. You've completely underrated reality. What is it you think because something is empty doesn't exist?

That's what I was going to say. How do followers of the mind-only school respond to a follower of the middle way school who says things are illusory and that they appear to exist from their own side but do not? Oh, nice.

Cool. Very nice question. That's a fun format.

YouTube just wrote me that Jeopardy is suing us. I never said the word.

[Speaker 2]
I never said the word.

[Speaker 1]
Does it have an English equivalent? Is that how many times they're going to sue us? Not even once.

[Speaker 2]
Not only once.

[Speaker 1]
Multiple times.

[Speaker 2]
Not only once.

[Speaker 1]
That's a big difference. That's a good one.

[Speaker 2]
Hopeless. Hopeless. Oscar?

[Speaker 1]
Who was that?

[Speaker 2]
Yes, Oscar.

[Speaker 1]
Oscar, you keep working like that, you're going to join Gibson someday, I think.

[Speaker 3]
Roughly. Rough way of going about stuff.

[Speaker 1]
This is, I bet it's Rock Lepa. Oh, how it depends. So close.

So close. Depends on how? Relative to or in the context of.

Wouldn't that just be Rock Lepa? I don't know. It was in the text.

It could be both. Cool.

[Speaker 2]
Cool.

[Speaker 1]
All right. Yay. So this is a picture of the Mojave Desert.

It's hard to find good pictures of mirages. I spent a long time trying to find a good massage picture. Mirage, not massage.

Okay, so now I'm going to share with you my homework. Ooh, now it's getting hard. And it was really hard.

Your book is basically impossible, so don't worry about it. You graduated from impossible to worst since your last book. Can you see?

Yeah, good. Is it big enough? It is, yeah.

It's good. It's perfect, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
The formatting is attractive anyway.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Somebody has welled in. If in that system, things like the mercy of causes truly exist, then why do what I really meant in Jull's Sutras We're describing the ultimate, ,DANG PO CHEN GYI SNGAG DANG BZHIN PA'I PHYIN TU, as possessing, as explaining, as the absence.

That's a perfect sentence, and I don't know, I'll give you a thousand dollars for that sentence, okay? Wow. That's extremely difficult, and it's an extremely good translation.

So just tell little Jigme that she owes you a thousand bucks. I'm serious, okay? It's worth a thousand bucks.

Okay. I know a good deal when I see it, even if it's a model. And from a summary of the outline, I'm going to do it again.

,RNAM PAR RTOG PA KUN TSOR TU YOD PAR SPYOD PAR BYA'AM, ,RNAM PAR RTOG PA BYA'AM CHEN GYI SNGAG DANG BZHIN PA'I PHYIN TU, That's what I can say. It's being deceptive or ultimate. The reply is that it should be described as being deceptive.

In what way are these explanations? That's also perfect, but I think a thousand is enough. So I'm just taking that extra part for free.

It's a perfect, it's a very, very- Happy birthday. It's a very, very high quality translation and it's a very difficult section. And I'm really proud of you.

Okay. Thank you. All right, here we go.

Man, I can see my retirement looming.

[Speaker 2]
Everybody got a promise to screw up the next try.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I know, I know. Okay.

[Speaker 3]
But on the other hand, if you keep making money from him, he'll have to keep working.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's true.

[Speaker 2]
There we go.

[Speaker 1]
Good one. I still want to buy that car. Stanley, I'm not settling for some used BMW.

The problem is to fix that car in Rimmark, Arizona is going to be a challenge. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
I should say.

[Speaker 1]
Now, Venerable Upala, we got this here, we got this, at this section, theduk, where they explain ultimate, you know, ultimate reality, dundampa, okay? The ultimate, okay? As having five characteristics.

Okay? So what would a mixed nut do at this point? Go find the five characteristics.

Now, what places- That something like a lack, an absence, a negative could possess. Yeah, and what sources are we going to look in? We are going to look in Gongdrel and Dode Genre.

Yeah, we're going to look in the sutra called What I Really Meant. And we're going to go look in a Sangha's kind of a commentary on it called Sutra of Lankara, okay? And here's the section.

I'm going to have you read it. The big letters here. Please, please read.

Nek is going to check you. DER NA'I SBYANG CHUB SEMS PA TSUL SHING PHUN DRIG GYIS CHOS DU MED PA DANG GNYIS SU MED PA'I TSE NI DUNDAM PA LAS TZAM DER NA'I SBYANG CHUB SEMS PA DUN SAB GONG PHANG NI PHANG DREL PA LA DRI BA DRIG PA Okay, good. So there's a bodhisattva whose name is Tsul Shing Khun Drig, okay?

And you know that Tsul Shing from the famous Tsul Shing Mayimpa Yidlat Shepa from Sugeng's text. Where things are- Yeah, or correctly, okay? In the proper manner, Tsul Shing.

Khun Drig means, what is that?

[Speaker 2]
Asks a lot of good questions.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it is, paripracha. Yeah, at questions. I thought the spelling can also mean accustomed to.

But his name in Sanskrit is pariprachaka, which means to ask questions, yeah. In the proper manner. Yeah, good.

Which must be viddhi-vat, okay? Viddhi-vat means in the proper manner, okay? So he's one of the bodhisattvas in the sutra called What I Really Meant.

And don't forget, I think that has, how many chapters, Stanley? Was it 10? And we're just, we mainly just study one.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I think it's 10 different bodhisattvas ask questions. Anyway, he says, he talks about jyotimepa. We said that a certain experience is jyotimepa.

Inexpressible. Inexpressible.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Direct perception of emptiness is often called inexpressible. Cannot, what's that mean, inexpressible, Utpala? Well, that says it's jyotimepa.

No, I mean, when it refers to... Oh, what that means is that your teacher can't describe it to you and you see it right then and there. Good, perfect, perfect.

So it can be expressed, but not in a way that you have a personal experience of it after two minutes. And then the second one is ultimate reality also has a quality of being indivisible. Nyi sumepa, okay?

Indivisible, all right? And this description of being indescribable and of being indivisible starts off from the concept of ultimate reality, dundamba, okay? So here's where you get the first two of the five actually are clustered together.

I think the other three may be pages away, but we can refer readers to this section. DUM PA LA'I TZAM STE BYANG CHUB SEMS PA'I DUN ZAB BSGOM PA LA NGES PAR BRAL BA LA'I RGYUR BA'I PHYI PA I don't know what that means. Okay, let's stick to the first sentence.

Anyway. So here it clearly states that at least the first two of the five qualities mentioned by Khedrub Jey refer to the ultimate, okay? And I warn you, Utpala, that there's gonna be a big distinction in your section here between ultimate and ultimate reality.

Okay? There's gonna be a big distinction made between things being ultimate and things being ultimate reality and things being deceptive and things being deceptive reality. Okay?

And in fact, that's the theme of the next few pages. Okay? And that's where he's going.

That's where he's going. So we only got two of the five in the sutra. Now let's go look at what?

[Speaker 2]
We're gonna go look at Jula the Sutras.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. He said it was Jula the Sutras. It's that there's actually a better one in Dua, okay?

And here they are, okay? Five. So please read them.

Yeah, we got all five. Please read the bigger letters. Okay.

DUN DAM PA NI SINI NGA DANG DEN PA YIN TE CHU DU ME PED SINI DANG NI SU ME PED SINI DANG THOG KYE CHU DU LE YANG DAG PAR DEN DEY PED SINI DANG Where was I? I'm sorry. Thank you.

THAG TE PA DANG THAG TE PA MA YIN PA NI LE YANG DAG PAR DEN DEY PED SINI DANG DANG PHRAD DU RO GCIG PAS SINI DO Good. So they're very clear here and they're very mystical, okay? So the ultimate, and we don't know if he's talking about ultimate reality yet.

So be careful. The ultimate possesses five different qualities here, okay? Number one, it is DU DU MA What's that?

Inexpressible. Yeah, inexpressible. The quality of inexpressibility.

Yeah, it has a quality of inexpressibility. Or the characteristic of, yeah. Good.

Feature. Two. It has the feature of being indivisible.

Yeah. Yeah, or yeah, or one more. It has the quality of being DOG DE CHU YUL LAS YANG DAG PAR DENG PA DOG DE means, DOG DE means deductive perception.

Based on reasoning, okay? So it is- To use deductive reasoning. Reasoning.

Okay, we're definitely not talking ultimate reality.

[Speaker 2]
No, we aren't, because it's DENG PA, that.

[Speaker 1]
It's beyond. Oh, beyond, sorry. It's not just beyond, it's totally beyond.

Oh, totally beyond. The sphere in which you can use logic. Okay.

All right. Number four. It has DENG PA YANG DAG PAR from being DAG DE and from being not DAG DE.

It has gone beyond. Totally beyond. Totally beyond being different and not different.

Good, yeah. It kind of sounds like the long part we've been having in words text. Yeah.

I don't know how long that DAG DE has been going on. Two terms- That one's not a sphere, right? It's just, it's just totally beyond.

Well, it's NYI, don't forget it. Yeah, what is that NYI? In a translation from Sanskrit, it's DAG, as in SHUN YOD DAG.

So you can always translate it as the quality of being separate or not being separate, okay? You can always translate NYI when the text was originally written in Sanskrit as being the quality of something, okay? It's like emptiness, okay?

SHUN YOD DAG, DENG PA YI. The NYI is a translation of DAG. And that means quality.

The quality of being separate or not separate, okay? So it's the characteristic of going, of being totally- Beyond the quality of being separate or not separate? Exactly, very good.

You're really hot this week. I don't know what's happening. Number five.

This is kind of sweet. Yeah, so it's the single taste of everything. Yeah, yeah.

I like to call single song, personally. Yeah, it's the fact that all things are a single song, okay?

[Speaker 3]
All right.

[Speaker 1]
And by the way, this author, which is a sangha, I guess, he quotes the section from the Gomba. What's it called? Dodeganga, okay?

And with a little more detail. Okay, all right. So do we want to just use this one?

Well, I would use both, okay? Okay, but so here's where I'm a little bit nervous about using the first one. And that is to say it starts- Well, I would just be- It's on this page when we don't know what all the pages are that it's on.

I actually looked at it today. And if the other thing is, if the other three are there, there are very many pages past that. So I would just say the first two are found here.

Okay. Yeah, or a sangha mentions it here. If a sangha is quoting from that, then could I just search and find the other pages?

Yeah, you could do that too. Okay. A sangha's version may not match our ten-year version.

Okay. I don't know why I cut this out. Okay.

Yeah. We're going to have this. Well, yeah.

These are quotations that apply to Shen Wangs, okay? And the question here, which is also a sangha, is, are Shen Wangs kunzop, or are they dun-dang, okay? You asked him, they're dun-dang, yeah?

Yeah, because he said there's a little trouble here that we know that the Mind-Only School believes that Shen Wangs are denpa dupa. They exist really, okay? We know that in the Mind-Only School, Shen Wangs are denpa dupa.

In fact, they're the only thing that's denpa dupa. But they are still described as being illusion. Oh, right.

So they're using kunzop here to mean illusion? Yeah, I mean, it's all getting mixed up here. Okay, so just be aware.

Just be aware that this debate is a thorny point. It's a difficult point. It's not a small point.

The Mind-Only School insists that because functioning things do something, they must be real. But at the same time, they say that the concept of illusion does apply to functioning things. Yeah.

Okay, all right. That's what we talked about last time, right? Yeah, and there's a problem there.

Here's the section, okay. All right. I just wanna make sure I got everything covered here.

These are your footnote fodder. Footnote fodder? New word.

[Speaker 3]
Don't mutter, but don't fodder.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, please read. And Stanley is dying to check you. Oh, don't die, Stanley.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, I'm dying.

[Speaker 1]
I'm dying, that's true. MI RGYAL TE MI THAR KUN ZOP DANG DON DANG PA'I DANG BA BYAS PA NI By the way, when a BA is obviously, obviously a BA, I'm gonna change it. But I'm gonna do it very carefully because sometimes it's, it is, it's correct, okay?

Okay, that's the first time I've seen you break that rule ever. I know, I know. But I was doing another text and there were like hundreds of them.

And I thought it's just gonna get distracting, you know? Your curly coats got worn out. But I'm pretty, I'm pretty sensitive to when it might be okay.

Okay. I feel better if you said you were certain it was okay. Pretty certain.

No, I'm not pretty certain. If I'm not certain, I don't change it.

[Speaker 3]
How's that?

[Speaker 1]
Okay, okay. DENG PA'I DRUG PA MA'I DRUG SANG GI'I NYOG PA MA YIN GYI O NA CI ZHIN NA RGA'ANG LA DMIGS NAS ZHES BYA DRUG PA RNAM PAR BDAG PAR NYID RWAS DMIGS PA LA NI DUNDAM PA'I DENG PA ZHES BYA Okay, nice. This is an extremely important and beautiful point.

And if someone doesn't make a business program out of it, I wanna see it in China's soft power within the next few months. Okay. There's no contradiction.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, there's no contradiction.

[Speaker 1]
Between being deceptive and being real. Okay? And here's what it means, okay?

Here's the point, dita. When we talk about kun dzob and dundam denpa, okay? Which means what?

When we talk about deceptive and ultimate realities. Yeah, yeah, okay. It is not something which is merely established through being denpa drupa or ma drupa.

Or ma drupa. So, yeah. So, when we talk about something being deceptive reality, or ultimate reality, it is not something we establish merely by it existing in truth or not existing in truth.

Not existing in truth for the kun dzob. Existing in truth for the dundam, okay? So, he's gonna try to drill into us.

That there's a difference between kun dzob and kun dzob denpa, okay? And there's a big difference, okay? So, here we go.

He says that the question of whether something belongs to deceptive reality or ultimate reality is not answered by checking whether it exists in truth or not. Right, how nice. Okay?

And the psalm there is, is that only by doing those two things? Yeah, not only by, yeah. And it's a beautiful distinction.

So, let's keep going. You'll be comfortable, don't worry. Wa na chi she na.

Well then, how do you divide between deceptive reality and ultimate reality? And here is one of the most beautiful sentences in all the books we're doing. Okay, right here.

kang la mik na she je jepa nabar dakpa That's dundam denpa. What's dundam denpa? When you mikpa at it.

[Speaker 2]
When you look at it.

[Speaker 1]
When you look at it. When you see it, it cleans you of your she je du. Oh, it cleans you of your obstacles to knowledge.

Yeah, and we don't establish something as ultimate reality through its level of truthfulness. We establish something as ultimate reality if when you see it, you get your mind purified. Okay, it's very beautiful, okay?

It's really beautiful. It's very Tsongkopian. Actually, you're gonna see this a lot in Tim's text, okay?

So, almost the definition in our Tsongkopian lineage of ultimate reality is not that it's not lying. That if you can perceive it, your mind will be purified. Okay, cool?

Yeah. Yeah, wow. All right, and now here's the opposite, which is a little more depressing.

[Speaker 2]
And I think we're gonna have- Yes, She Je Dripa, this is not, it's not longhand for She Drip, right? Like it's obstacles knowing in general, or is it specific to obstacles?

[Speaker 1]
Your She Je Dripas will be cleaned away. Okay. Your She Drips will be cleaned away.

Okay. It's the same, Nyomongpe Dripa also, right?

[Speaker 2]
Right, that's why I asked.

[Speaker 1]
I would say Dripa in general, but anyway. Haso, let's get to work. You've been taking a break.

DANG LA MIG MED KUN NAS NYOMONG PA SKYE BA'I MIG PA LA KUN ZOB KYID DEN PA SHE JA SHING SHEN WANG NYID DEN PAR DRIP KYANG NAM PAR DAG PA'I MIG PA MA YIN PA DE'I CHI'IR Hey, hey. Oh, oh, thanks. MA YIN PA'I MA YIN PA'I DE'I CHI'IR KUN ZOB DEN PAR SUM PA YIN NO I'm gonna challenge a word to translate this sentence.

It's a very significant sentence. And so go slow, and you're gonna open our minds. Hopefully.

If you mess up, I'll reduce $1,000. Okay. Okay.

KANG LA MIG MED KUN NAS NYONG PA SKYE BA'I So what is it? What is the thing you focus on which creates all of the bad things in the world? All the- Yeah, yeah.

So grammatically, you could start this sentence like this. You could say, that thing, which, comma, when you focus on it, what? It actually creates all the afflicted things.

Yeah, it stirs up your negative emotions. That thing, which when you look at it, stirs up your negative emotions, that's called- That's called what? Deceptive reality.

That's what it is for a thing to be deceptive reality. Deceptive reality, yeah. Cool.

It's not whether it's like an illusion. You see, that's what he's trying to say, Utpala. We don't define lying reality, deceptive reality, by being an illusion.

We define it by its effect on the human brain. Okay, it's very interesting, okay? Cool?

Yeah. Okay, keep going, you're not done yet. You haven't lost all the money yet.

And shenwangs, things that are dominated by other causes or factors, are in a denpa drup, or denpa druppa, are in truth real. Yeah. Even- But, but- Oh, hmm, okay.

But because they are not- Because they are not the objects that you focus on, that what you focus on- That would make you pure. That purify you, nampar dakpa. For that reason- For that reason, they are what we say is fake reality, deceptive reality.

Yeah, so the point here is that shenwangs, functional things, are denpa druppa, but they are still- Kunzab denpa. Kunzab denpa. What's that mean in English word?

Even though shenwangs are what the mind-only school considers to be real, they are still real in the sense that they are part of deceptive reality. Well, I wouldn't go that far. I'd say, yeah, in this school, the mind-only school, things that do something are real, but they are still fake reality.

Ooh, okay. They are real, but they are still fake reality. Word.

In what sense are they real? Somebody's birthday? I'm going to charge- It sounds like Tony is laughing.

Okay, so I lost my question. Word. Dang.

In what sense are they- In what sense are they real? In what sense are things that do something real? And in what sense are they fake at the same time?

That they come from causes. Good. Yeah, you can say that.

They're real in the sense that they come from causes, but they're fake in the sense that they're not, they're what caused them. No, they are fake reality in the, Kramer's got it. They're fake reality because- They can't purify you.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, the opposite. They make you worse. They cause all afflictions.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, when you look at them, they cause you to have mental afflictions. Now, how does that relate to gyang che? Right.

Oh, because they, even though they're in the- Oh, and word, I want you to take it to the kitchen and the husband. Yeah, even though the husband that yells at you when you come home from a hard day's work and just want a hug seems to be out there on his- Good, and therefore not your fault. Therefore not your fault, out there on your own, not giving you a hug.

In fact, he's not out there, gyang che. He is a manifestation of your kunshi that you planted when you yelled at your kids in the morning that just seems like he's out there. And why is that kunso denpa in this school?

Why is that fake reality in this school? Because that- Impression. That manifestation will increase your mental afflictions and not decrease them.

Yeah, and you are totally likely to answer him back with some kind of anger and therefore spin the wheel of life. Okay, got it? Got it.

Is he illusory? Yes, he seems to be out there and not part of my mind. When you focus on that, does it mess you up?

Yes. Okay. All right.

Then you yell back, okay? Yep. Whoa, these two paragraphs are, they should be carved on the wall of the school, of the Sedona building.

Okay, all right.

[Speaker 3]
Ishla, in the previous verse, when you said that it purifies your mind of obstacles, was it just obstacles in general? Any particular obstacles, omniscience, obstacles to knowledge?

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry, say it again. I'm sorry, Rabbi, I was distracted.

[Speaker 3]
No, no, so when we're talking about seeing ultimate reality directly, and that it purifies your mind of obstacles completely, what were those obstacles it was referring to?

[Speaker 1]
Well, that was a point that Ben pointed out. It seems to say obstacles to knowledge, but then when he says the opposite, when he says, what does the opposite do to you? He just mentions mental afflictions.

So I got to think that, I'm not sure about this obstacles to knowledge, Ben, here.

[Speaker 3]
It could be, okay.

[Speaker 1]
I mean, it's, you know, it could be assuming obstacles to nirvana also, you know? So, okay.

[Speaker 3]
There's also a whole big mess about, you know, which of the schools say you get rid of which of the obstacles at what points in the path.

[Speaker 2]
So maybe a technical issue there in the mind-only school where, you know, this sort of wisdom only gets rid of one, and we wouldn't necessarily agree.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Let's keep going.

We got some time, right? Yeah, we have three minutes. Okay.

Can I just check something with you, Geshe-la? Yes, sure. You used the word dempa druppa, which truly established, which...

Oh, no, I wouldn't say established. I wouldn't say established. It's confusing.

We never say that in common English. I'd say, you know, dempa druppa, does it exist in truth or not? Okay, because I was going to link it that it made total sense that if something was caused, it was truly established.

Yeah, I would never use that phrase because we never use it. Yeah, does it exist in truth or not? All right, let's try to get through this next piece.

It's not easy. DENG WANG DENG PAR DRUG PA NI, MING DANG DREG ZHAG PA TSA MIN PAR RANG GI TSE NI KYI DRUG PA LA BRJOD TE, DE NA, DENG DANG DENG PA DANG, DENG DANG PAR YOD PA TZAM LA KHYAD SHIN TU CHE BA DANG, KHON SOGS DENG PA YIN BYANG TSUM PA TZAM YIN NI DGOS PA LA TSOGS PA DRUG PA BTAG NI LUGS YIN ZHIG Okay, I'm sorry. I got distracted by my wife asking me about dinner.

Okay, GZHAN BA DENG PAR DRUG PA NI. When we... Yeah, this is all the same thought.

When we say that things which do something, exist... Is it the mercy of other things? Yeah, exist, well, yeah.

Exist in truth, okay? We are not just saying, we are not just saying, okay? As the Middle Way would say, that they exist only through MING and DANG.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, MING and DANG.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? We are not... When we say...

Yeah, when we say things that do something exist in truth, we are not saying that they are not something which exists just through concepts, okay? Okay, where's the not? MING, MING PAR.

Oh, MING, sorry, I didn't see that. We are not saying that. I'm looking at GZHAN, I'm like, what?

Yeah, we are not saying that. Rather, rather, we say they exist by definition. Okay?

In this school, in this school, okay? They exist in truth because they exist by definition, not because they are not made up with words. Yeah.

Okay, good. Therefore, DON DANG LDAN PA DANG, DON DANG PAR YOD PA TZAM LA There, here's the whole point of your book, of this section of your book. There is a SHIN TU CHE BAR BSKYED PAR A humongous difference Between DON DANG LDAN PA and existing DON DANG PAR Great.

Between ultimate reality and ultimate. And existing in an ultimate way, okay? And existing really, okay?

There's a huge difference here between being ultimate reality, which means if you can see it, your mind is purified, and existing in an ultimately correct way, which means it is what you see, okay? SHIN TU CHE BAR, okay? SHIN TU CHE BAR And moreover, just because something is KUN TZAB LDAN PA doesn't mean it can't be lying to you.

Just because something is... Sorry, no, sorry. Deceptive reality.

Just because it's deceptive reality doesn't mean it has to be lying to you. Doesn't mean it has to be lying to you. Okay, okay.

SOGS PA'I DROD PA'I THAG GIS LUGS That's the mind-only school. That's the mind-only school. And that's why a sangha, and even Lord Buddha in the third turning of the wheel, can keep talking about functioning things as lies and still believe they are true.

That they exist in truth, but they are illusory. Okay? And that's not at all what the Middle Way would say.

He's going to say that later, by the way. Okay? Yay!

Yeah, I really don't get that at all, Geshe-la. No, the Middle Way equates illusory... No, no, no, I get the Middle Way difference.

I don't get at all why something, deceptive reality doesn't mean it has to be lying to you. Yeah, good. Okay.

By definition, deception is lying.

[Speaker 2]
Well, you could be right about something, but still sitting there looking at it is making you dumber.

[Speaker 1]
That's a great distinction, Ben. Yeah, that's a great distinction. That's exactly...

That's exactly...

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I don't get it at all.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. No, but... I need more words.

Well, think about what Ben just said. Say it again, Ben. Say it slow.

[Speaker 2]
You could be watching the History Channel all night on your computer for entertainment, but you're still getting... And everything you're hearing is correctly reported to you, but you're still getting dumber while spending all night watching the History Channel. Well, I mean, conventionally, that makes sense.

Yeah, right. Yeah, so you could be looking at something and what you're seeing is not inaccurate, but sitting there looking at it is damaging your capacity in general to have knowledge.

[Speaker 1]
Perfect, perfect. Yeah, perfect. That's the distinction here.

Perfect. Yay, that's a... Boy, that book got sexy all of a sudden, and it's going to stay sexy for a few pages.

Are we staying in the Minoli School for a while? Yeah, by the way, Nick, when they leave the Minoli School, he really leaves it. I bet.

He doesn't come back to it. He doesn't come back to it for five years or so. And we're going to have a big pizza party when that happens, I tell you.

And it's coming up soon. He's going to drop the Minoli School completely and get into the middle way. I don't know actually why he spent so much time on it at the beginning of this book, but okay.

Thank you so much. Yeah, it's great. It's a great compliment to words to books.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
They really help each other, yeah. All right, we'll see you guys in how many minutes, Nicholas? Five minutes.

Five minutes, okay. Yes, five minutes. Okay, we'll be seeing you then.

Thank you. Thank you, Geshe-la. Thank you, everybody.

Thank you very much. Thanks to everyone.