Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 28

[Speaker 2]
I now have to install the Zoom audio device.

[Speaker 3]
I haven't seen that one before.

[Speaker 1]
Nobody saw that one coming. Sometimes Zoom makes you restart Zoom.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, to do something like that. The newer versions are a little bit thinner here.

[Speaker 2]
You see my screen?

[Speaker 3]
It's about... Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Welcome to the quiz for Class 3. Now, Class 3, as you recall, had the same content as Class 2. So what we're going to do for the quiz this time is there's this very popular game show on American television.

[Speaker 1]
Where... I'm sorry to ask this of you, would you try not using your earbud, Mike? Because something's buzzing really bad.

[Speaker 2]
So there's a very popular American television show. Is that better?

[Speaker 1]
I think so, yes.

[Speaker 2]
Where you are given answers and you have to provide the question that goes along with the answer. So instead of giving me answers to questions, you are going to give me questions for answers, okay? The fact that if taken literally, it would refute the truth.

[Speaker 1]
Something to be interpreted. What is something to be interpreted? I'm sorry?

What is something to be interpreted? Something figurative.

[Speaker 2]
Next.

[Speaker 3]
Good news and bad news about your headphones. Good news is you can use them. Bad news is it's still buzzing really loudly.

And I don't know if it has to do with your sound settings. Does it have a recommendation?

[Speaker 2]
Stop, never mind.

[Speaker 3]
It's really good and we really want to do the thing.

[Speaker 2]
Well, you know, if it's buzzing, it's buzzing. I mean, I have a computer, that's it. Goodbye.

[Speaker 3]
No, no, please don't leave. Do we have any other technical potential fixes? Are we just out of luck, Tim?

Do you have any thoughts? It's possible that the microphone is set a bit high. Oh, right.

Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
That's probably what it is.

[Speaker 3]
That's a pretty good idea in sound settings.

[Speaker 1]
Something happened.

[Speaker 3]
It's only when her volume goes up. If she talks a little bit louder. That's what I was thinking.

It's potentially just a microphone setting.

[Speaker 1]
Are you there, Upala?

[Speaker 3]
Maybe she's restarting.

[Speaker 1]
It probably is the sound setting, yeah.

[Speaker 3]
It looks like she fell off the call. It's possible she's restarting her machine. I'm going to reach out to her right now.

Thanks. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Hi, you guys. If it goes on too long, I can just start. Good morning, Geshe-la.

Hi. Are you in Phoenix? Yeah.

It's taking a while to get here. It's Valentine's Day. Somebody's asleep.

Gotcha. Just like Amalie. Yeah, hopefully for a while.

How about I just start? Okay. I think it sounds like a good plan.

We don't want to waste too much time. Okay. If Upala comes back, we can do that.

Yay. Oh, not that one. Okay, so today we're going to have...

Different people are going to read, okay? Mr. Tim, are you ready?

[Speaker 3]
Sure.

[Speaker 1]
And... Mr. Nick, can you check? Okay?

Yes, sir. Okay, I think this is where we start. Okay, cool.

[Speaker 3]
What's the difference? How do we pronounce the difference between the first chuh and the second chuh here?

[Speaker 1]
With a tah suffix, it's a little bit shorter, like chuh. It's just like the word cut. With a sah suffix, it's like a little bit drawn out, chuh.

[Speaker 3]
Okay, thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Sorry.

[Speaker 3]
What was that?

[Speaker 1]
The gong is when it has a... Since we have time, a prefix or a head letter, you can pronounce the G like a hard G rather than like a low K sound. So DG would be gong.

Gong, okay.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Tim, you're not finished.

[Speaker 3]
Where's the little tempeh? All existing things.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, here it's all things, yeah. ta ne lo chupay dun are objects perceived by a state of mind which is tulwa. What's that?

[Speaker 3]
Messed up.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. Mistaken.

[Speaker 3]
Mistaken, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Sam means... sam ma tong means just that and nothing more.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, sir. This is one that I was asked to try and translate.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, are you ready?

[Speaker 3]
You sound good so far.

[Speaker 1]
I'll stop sharing, you can take the screen.

[Speaker 2]
Well, let's go on with the class.

[Speaker 1]
Go ahead, go ahead.

[Speaker 3]
Sounds good, Utpala.

[Speaker 1]
I'll take the screen, Utpala.

[Speaker 2]
It's because I'm not sharing, so that's probably why.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, no, it was still an issue even when you weren't sharing. For whatever reason, it does seem a lot better now. Let's try.

Great.

[Speaker 2]
Here you go.

[Speaker 1]
All right, let's check this out. Can you make it bigger, Utpala?

[Speaker 2]
Oh my gosh.

[Speaker 3]
Can you make it full screen? Because it's only showing on a quarter of your screen. Can you make the actual...

Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
There you go, yay. All right. Okay, good.

Good. The first part is good.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that whole phrase is like ridiculous. Call Ranggi, call Rangtong pig, Rangtong yin.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you got to read it this way, and it's not easy, okay? Your text suddenly got really bad, difficult. So Rangtong, do you remember that idea that they had before?

That the fact that something is empty of not being itself is the emptiness of something, you see what I mean?

[Speaker 2]
The fact that something is not empty of itself is its emptiness?

[Speaker 1]
Is that what you just said? Well, the thing is called... Rangtong means empty of self, empty of itself.

Where... Okay, so you have to read it backwards, right? It is empty of itself, meaning it is devoid of being itself.

So that's as opposed to Shentong, right? So this is not a... This is the idea of some strange...

It's a strange idea of some groups in Tibet, right? That all things are Rangtong, meaning they are empty of themselves in the sense of not being themselves, okay? They are everything that they...

They are the opposite of everything they are not, okay? And in this case, they are empty of being themselves, okay? Kochu means...

Do you remember, Utpala, Kochu?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, right there it says what you could stand in for. That's the only...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, do you guys remember this idea that like... I don't know. Yesterday I needed to pry something open and I didn't have a hammer, and I used some other tool.

You see what I mean?

[Speaker 2]
A stand-in.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, a stand-in, yeah. Or, I don't know, a substitute. Acceptable substitute, okay?

ko chu kyi chu su chung se kyang nepar There's nothing... itself, or something like that. This is just a weird idea, okay?

[Speaker 2]
And even in the slightest? Yep.

[Speaker 1]
Wow.

[Speaker 2]
That makes absolutely no sense to me. I mean, I know those are English words and such, but...

[Speaker 1]
Take comfort, because Khenopje says the same thing. So, Dogongja Sutra and Commentaries I'm sorry. The Sutra of What I Really Meant.

And, okay. tokpay ku che kyi shung Yeah, good. drajesh Whether you claim that this is the nge dun Sorry.

Whether you claim that this is to be taken literally, okay? That this is their actual... This is their intention.

And it's to be taken literally. And you claim that this is what they really meant. nge dun dun mo-wa Okay?

And you keep... And you keep teaching it that way. je su jupa here means you keep repeating it to other people.

kye ma Anybody know kye ma? Alas. Yeah, alas.

You are doomed. Destined for ruin. This gyu nyi This is nothing more, nothing less than a cause which is going to destine you for ruin.

So, I'll give you a quick recap of the whole sentence. ngopo tham che thangye nopay chur dun yinpad tsam ma tok All things are the objects of mistaken states of mind. Mistaken conventional states of mind.

And they are self-empty in the sense that they are empty even of being themselves. And if you claim that there's nothing else in the world which can represent them, and then you claim that this is the real meaning, literal meaning, of the sutra, what I really meant, and also of the great books of the two brothers, and if you claim that this is what's really intended by those books, and you keep repeating that, oh my gosh, you're going to get in big trouble. Something like that.

Something like that, all right? Thank you. He's just, you know, it's just attacking weird ideas that were popular in Tibet, and if we had time, and we had the expertise, we could go find out who said that.

It's probably, I don't know who it is exactly. And he's going to keep going in that same vein, okay? Utpala, will you read this?

And Ben, will you check? Yeah, great. Two, two, one.

[Speaker 2]
Man, there's some ringing going on that's just killing my ears. So if someone could mute their microphone, please. Okay.

Boss, you're muted.

[Speaker 1]
I thought maybe I was the one causing the trouble. Moreover, if the meaning of something's being empty is that it is empty of being itself, is it me?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I'll just take my earphones out. Maybe that's the problem.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. If it's me, I can just...

[Speaker 3]
It's not you. It's not you, boss.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. So if the meaning, dun, of rangtong, something's being empty, okay? If the meaning of something's being empty is that it is empty of being itself, okay?

If the meaning of something's being empty is that it is empty of itself in the sense of itself is absent in itself, okay? Yena. Then it would have to be the case that...

What's gyun dre tabak, Utpala?

[Speaker 2]
There's no end to cause and effect?

[Speaker 1]
This tabak means tam che. All cause and effect. Yeah, all causes and all effects would have to be empty of gyun dre tabak.

Tabak. Of effect. Okay, all causes and effects would have to be empty of all causes and effects, okay?

And then cause and effect itself would become like the instrument... The rabbit. No, the ritual dagger that Seiji's lady riding on the Garuda was using.

[Speaker 2]
Oh yeah, right. The one, the black... No, the white one that's black.

Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and has a ritual dagger made of a rabbit horn, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yep.

[Speaker 1]
Ta chepa means... As an insult, it means worse. Worse?

Or, you know, hopeless? Okay, it means to cut the... It means to cut off the rope or something like that.

So what would be more desperate or ridiculous than that, okay? Di le ta chepa. Ta chepa means like, how could you find something more ridiculous than that, okay?

[Speaker 2]
I'm trying to think of anything more ridiculous than that.

[Speaker 1]
So some of them have an idea of shen tong, which is that the fact that something is empty of everything it's not, is emptiness. And then other people have this new idea that the thing, the fact that something is empty of itself, is its emptiness. That's rang tong.

So these are two weird schools that started up in Tibet, okay? You please read and... Kat wants to check you, I can see.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. gyi yong dun pa yin la, san gye pay druk thak ma wa suang, de tar nduk pa pakpay yul du ma jung mo. Good, nice.

[Speaker 1]
Kat approves. de way na. Therefore, kha chi kyir means some people who say that chod tham che, what's that mean?

[Speaker 2]
Everything.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's rang tong.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, some people who say that everything is self-empty, empty of itself.

[Speaker 1]
Good, good, auto-empty. Okay. kun dzok tsam rang tong dun ma wa nyi kang, and also that all kun dzok things, that all deceptive things...

Yeah, and what it means to be deceptive is that you are rang tong, okay?

[Speaker 2]
What?

[Speaker 1]
Okay. So there's two different parties here. Nyi kang means two different parties.

The first party says that all things are empty of being themselves, and the second party says only those things which are deceptive are empty of being themselves. Two different groups, okay?

[Speaker 2]
That makes a lot more sense.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. If you accept this as what it means for something to be empty, we would say rang tong means the fact that something is empty. You see what that means?

Not that it's empty of itself. Okay? That's its emptiness, right?

The emptiness of a thing. We can say rang tong, but we don't mean that it means that it's empty of being itself. See what I mean?

Yeah. So this rang tong before rang tong dun is actually correct. Something's being empty.

This rang tong in the end of the second line means the meaning of something being empty, okay? Okay. It does not mean empty of being itself.

They misinterpreted the meaning, okay? Okay. If you accept that as being the meaning of what we say is something being empty, okay?

If you think that the meaning of something being empty is either that all things in the universe are empty of being themselves, or just the deceptive reality of things are empty of being themselves, okay? If you accept that, okay? Land in the third line.

Then you are teaching something which doesn't relate either to the thekpa chenpo or the thekpa chungwa. Okay. The greater vehicle or the lesser vehicle.

Yeah. You've got a new kind of emptiness which was neither taught in the Mahayana or the Hinayana. You know, congratulations.

Got it? Yeah. And you also have a new idea which was neither in the drang dun gyi dos or the ney dun gyi dos.

The literal sutras or the figurative sutras. Yeah, you've got a... God, you're so wonderful.

You've got something the Buddha never taught before. Then Mahayana... Or would that be sutras which are literal or...

Figurative or literal. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
But you would start off with sutras, right?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. And then he says, and moreover, as far as Ben's siddhanta, you have found a siddhanta of the Buddhists, right? Sangyepe Dupta.

Okay. You've developed an idea that nobody in the past has ever had in any of the schools of Buddhism. Okay?

Okay. Quite an achievement. And never happened in Pakwa.

Pakyum.

[Speaker 3]
In India.

[Speaker 1]
The land of India, yeah. Yeah, the land of the Aryas, okay. And by the way, I mean, a lot of what you hear in Buddhism nowadays is the same.

It's indefensible in any Buddhist school that ever existed. Or in any scripture that you can find. And a lot of what's taught as Buddhism is nothing that ever came in the ancient books.

And it's nothing that was ever taught in the ancient schools. It's just made up. It's just somebody's yoga class idea, you know?

Okay. And it's very frustrating. If you know the teaching of the Buddha, it's very frustrating to hear a lot of the things that are taught as Buddhism.

Okay. Okay, two, two, three. Dr. Hagedy, you keep looking at me.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay, good.

[Speaker 1]
Now, in the Mind Only School, this is going off on an interesting subject, and it needs some background. In the Mind Only School, is the Shen Wong real or not? Real.

Yeah, it is. So there's three characteristics of the Mind Only School. One is Shen Wong, which means all changing things, right?

All things that are caused. Are those real? Yes.

Yeah. And is the fact that blue looks to be outside, is it true?

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
I mean, yeah, is it true that blue is real?

[Speaker 2]
I mean, it is true it looks to be outside, but it's not true in fact.

[Speaker 1]
We call that made up, or kundat, right? And then the fact that Shen Wongs are empty of being made up in that way is emptiness in the Mind Only School. Okay, I'll say it again.

There do exist Shen Wong things. They're real. They do things.

Fires burn people, okay? But it looks like the fire is out there, burning on a house or something. And that's fake, okay?

And the fact that that fake thing doesn't exist is emptiness in the Mind Only School. Okay, good. So in the Mind Only School, the one thing that is indisputable or real is the fact that things do things, okay?

That's real, okay? That's denpa drupa. Got it?

Say yes. Yes. Okay, good.

Sorry.

[Speaker 2]
No, you tell us every class, I'm sorry. Yes, I understand.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good. So now a guy comes up and says, but listen, in the sutra called What I Really Meant, Lord Buddha said that changing things are like an illusion. He's troubled by that.

That's supposed to be the one thing that's real. You see what I mean? That's supposed to be the...

[Speaker 2]
There's someone who has their mic open who's moving around a lot, or moving their computer or something. If you could stop, thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Well, sometimes it's going to... It might be me somehow, I don't know.

Okay, so the other guy comes up and says, you know what's interesting? You say that the Mind Only School says that the only thing which is the way it seems to be is the fires that make people hot. Shenmongs, okay?

But in the Third Turning of the Wheel, didn't Buddha say that Shenmongs are gyumatabu? They're like an illusion. Okay, got it?

Yes. Then he says, look, if something was denpa dupa, what's that mean, Upala? If something is true.

And then you say it's like gyumatabu. And then you say it's like an illusion. Yeah, wouldn't that be incorrect?

Ni tepa. Wouldn't that be incorrect? Chi chir.

Then, if that is correct, then why would you say that what this sutra is saying is that all functioning things exist in truth? Okay, got it? Yeah.

How can you, at the same moment, say that fires burn people and that's real, and then in the same text say that when a fire burns something, it's like an illusion? So, you know, it's weird. You guys sometimes say that Shenmongs are real, and then sometimes you say that Shenmongs are like an illusion.

Okay, got it? That's his problem. We're going to go on.

This is going to be today's topic. So, this is whose problem? Just some unidentified opponent.

Okay. And he's complaining about us, and his complaint is founded. It's correct.

Yep.

[Speaker 2]
Just that K.J.P. uses the shena, but he doesn't use the kachik at the beginning.

[Speaker 1]
That's correct, yeah. Sugeng, are you translating? No, I'm not.

Oh, can you irritate her with your corrections? Come on. I wouldn't dare.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Please do. It's okay. Oh, gosh.

I guess I do scare you. No, just key. Not too long.

No, I was doing it like, but.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, okay. Sure. Okay.

Thank you. Okay. RGYUD MA PHER BYED TSUL LA RAG TE It means, look, we're just using an illusion here as a pe.

[Speaker 2]
As an example.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and relative to that, TSUL LA RAG means relative to, we're just using an illusion as an example. It's not here that we are saying that functional things aren't what they seem. We don't mean that.

We're just going off on a small side example of illusion. It's not that we believe that functioning things are not real. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
But it is that they aren't what they seem. Correct? Because we see them directly.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah.

But they're still real. Yes. Okay.

So, U MA PA LTAR GZHAN DBANG MI BDEN GZHIN DU According to the U MA PA's, okay? According to the Middle East King, even though GZHAN DBANGs are MI BDEN, they appear as BDEN.

[Speaker 2]
Yes. Even though...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. We're out of the mind-only school. He says, look, from the point of view of the Middle East school, yes, when they speak of things not being what they appear to be, we are saying that they are not real.

Okay? But that's not the kind of illusion that we're talking about here in the mind-only school. PHER BYED PA MA YIN means...

We are not... When we present the mind-only school, we are not presenting the idea of an illusion in the same way that the Middle East schools are presenting an idea of an illusion. Okay?

In the Middle East school, the fire burning is not at all what it seems, and it's totally unreal. In the mind-only school, we can call the fire burning illusory, but in a lesser sense. Okay?

In more of a metaphorical sense. In the Middle East school, when we say the fire is burning, we're being literal. Okay?

When we say it's an illusion, we're being literal. In the mind-only school, when we say the fire burning is illusory, it's more of just an example. Okay?

Cool. Thank you. In both schools, we say the fire burning is illusory.

In the mind-only school, it just means it's slightly not what you thought. In the Middle East school, illusory means it's not at all real in the way you thought it was real. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Keep going. Sugeng, you didn't really have a chance to do much here.

I'll try harder now. Alright. Well then, how does that work?

Chi She Nam means. How does it work that the mind-only school calls it an illusion and then the middle-way school calls it an illusion, but when the mind-only school calls it an illusion, it's just kind of a light metaphor, and when the mind-only school calls it an illusion, they really mean it doesn't exist the way it looks.

[Speaker 2]
The middle-way school, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Middle-way, yeah. And then they said, well, the way in which it's an illusion in sort of a light way, in a metaphorical way, is described in the Gen, Dode Gen, Sutra Alankara, in the Thektu, Mahayana Sangraha, in the briefer presentation, etc. Clearly, clearly stated.

Okay? And then he gives us another Dode Gen quotation, which when I see quotation from Dode Gen now, I get nervous.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, so do I.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Let's see here. Stanley, wake up.

[Speaker 3]
All right.

[Speaker 1]
I hope you rested well. Good. So the ornament of the sutra says, JI LTAR RGYUD MA'I DE BZHIN DU As an illusion, just as an indication of an illusion, YANG DAG MA YIN It's not what it seems to be.

KUN RDOG DOD It's just made up in your mind. RGYUD NAS RNAM PAR JI LTA BAR When we talk about how something appears as an illusion, Okay? DE BZHIN GNYIS SU CHUG PA RGYUD We are talking about mistake, and a mistake, which is based on GNYIS RNAM What's GNYIS RNAM?

Very important. GNYIS RNAM Where is it? Could you highlight it?

Third line. No, I'm just filling in for GNYIS RNAM. What's that?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, okay.

[Speaker 1]
What do you call that? What do we call that? Duality.

Yeah, duality.

[Speaker 2]
If you highlight the word, I don't see it.

[Speaker 1]
No, it's not here. It's implied here. GNYIS SU means GNYIS RNAM.

It's not the way it seems. It appears one way, but it's a different way. Okay?

Now, in the mind-only school, that doesn't equal it appears to exist, and it doesn't exist. Got it?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It's not the same kind of duality. The duality here is, look, it seems to be a certain way incidentally, and it's not that way incidentally, but it's still for sure it exists. It's not that it appears to exist, and it doesn't exist at all.

That's the mind-only interpretation of illusion. Okay? Got it?

It's just different than what it seems. Okay? Hello?

[Speaker 2]
Yes, thank you.

[Speaker 1]
All right, here we go. Stanley, keep going. Wake up.

[Speaker 3]
Okay, okay.

[Speaker 2]
All right. Okay, good.

[Speaker 1]
By the way, we have to find this quotation. This is not a quotation, but it's a reference. Find this reference, not a quotation.

Got it. Okay? Okay.

Now, you guys know this story. What is it? Once I tell it to you.

DRUL ZHIG means the thing that you are mistaken about. Okay? The basis of the mistake.

Okay? The basis of the mistake. PHO LBA means a dirt clod.

Okay? A clod of dirt. A small piece of hard dirt.

Okay? We have them a lot in Arizona. All right.

Or it could be a small piece of wood, like this big. Okay? It's called a dew.

Right? Anybody starting to remember something yet? Well, the dew?

Yeah. Magician's story. Yeah, the magician's story.

Yay, word. I would give you some money, but nah. Okay.

So, in this case, they're saying you could take a dirt clod as well as a small piece of wood. And you could LTA PA'A NGAG on it. Anybody want to guess?

You could throw a spell onto it. Good, yeah. You could throw a spell onto it.

Mantra. This is the ancient meaning of mantra. Okay?

Of illusion. You could throw a spell of illusion on it. Okay?

And then this GZHAN DBANG Then even GZHAN DBANGs, even fires burning. Okay? YANG DAG PA MA YIN PAS KUN DO NYIN NANG PHYIR PA'I BAG CHAGS KYI LAS PA Because you are LAS PA What's that?

[Speaker 2]
Because you're under the spell?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, because your mind is polluted or affected, infected by BAG CHAGS Seeds. Which make you see things in a dualistic way. NYIN NANG Okay?

With some kind of incorrect imagination. YANG DAG PA MA YIN PAS KUN DO Okay? With some kind of incorrect imagination.

So it's like that. Then the DBANG BA What's DBANG BA? Some sort of tree?

Clog. Dirt clog.

[Speaker 2]
Dirt clog. Oh, the dirt clog.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, somebody typed BUD PA which means the Tibetan. Okay? Luckily I figured it out.

Okay. And it's hard because DBANG BA happens once in a hundred books. The dirt clog will NANG BA as a DA or a LUNG?

It'll appear as a horse or an elephant. This LUNG could be an elephant, yeah. So what is it that's happening with GZHAN DBANGS that is similar to the story of a magician's trick?

What is it that's happening with changing things or functioning things in the Mind-Only School version which is similar to a magician's trick? In the Mind-Only School we are not saying it implies that there's nothing there. Okay?

Even in the magician's story there's still a little piece of wood there and there's still a little dirt clog there. It's not what it seems to be but it's not totally non-existent as it would be in the Middle Way. Middle Way School.

Good. The higher Middle Way. Yeah.

So what is the illusion according to the Mind-Only School? Oh, in the Mind-Only School the GZHAN DBANGS, okay? The DZIN PA, the object, sorry, the subject state of mind and the GSUNG BA, the object, okay, the subject state of mind and its object appear to exist RGYAL CHE.

[Speaker 2]
I thought it was going to say outside, but...

[Speaker 1]
Well, a word can tell you. At a distance from each other. Oh, at a distance.

Yeah. Separated. CHE.

At a distance. RGYAL It appears that the blue is out there two meters away and that's all an illusion. Okay?

Now, Utpala, does it mean that the Mind-Only School says that blue doesn't exist?

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
No, it just seems to be at a distance, but it's not. And that's the meaning of illusion. That's the...

Okay? So don't hassle me that the Mind-Only School is saying that functioning things don't exist somehow like blue. It does exist, but it's not exactly what it appears to be.

Okay? Big difference. Big difference.

And by the way, we're headed towards an even more significant difference. Okay? Alright.

Please read. And... Who is that?

Alison? Oh my gosh. From the mountains.

[Speaker 2]
From the mountains. nyampa dukpay chir gyu mey pey dang.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, there's something wrong with the text here and... oh, in fact I went to... I find it.

Let me see. No. Yeah.

Sorry, he's not quoting directly. Okay. So thek du says, Mahayana Sangraha says, in the yulm gyi do, what's that?

In the Mother Sutras. When they talk about gyu me. When they talk about illusion.

And they're using the illusion as a metaphor, pey, for shen wang.

[Speaker 2]
For things at the mercy of causes.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and then pey ten jorwa, pey ten jorwa is an idiom in poetics, which means, let's look at the metaphor and what it represents. Okay, like if you say, like the chariot that's being pulled across the sky, that's the pey. Okay, and what's the dun of that one?

What does it refer to?

[Speaker 2]
The chariot being pulled across the sky?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah, I really don't know. A cloud?

It's the sun. Okay. Yeah, they thought the sun was on a wagon being pulled across the sky.

So the pey in that case is a horse wagon, and the dun in that case is the nyi ma, is the sun. Okay, so when we try to connect the metaphor of an illusion, right, of an illusion, to what it actually refers to, okay, what we're talking about, chi rul gyi dun me na, somewhere in here there's some mistaken language, but what it means is, we are not saying chi rul gyi dun me.

[Speaker 2]
We're not saying that it means there are no outer objects.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, we're just saying it doesn't appear as in the way that it seems to be. Okay, when we use the pey, the metaphor of an illusion, what we're talking about is not that those outer objects don't exist at all. We're just saying they don't exist.

We're trying to stop people thinking that they are the way they appear to be. Okay, that they are the way they seem to be. Okay, it's not that we're saying they don't exist.

That's what we mean by an illusion. Okay, something that does exist. Are we still mind-only perspective?

Yeah, because we take to Mahayana Sangraha. Okay, that's what Mahayana Sangraha is talking about.

[Speaker 3]
Okay, so we're mind only, not middle way though?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, right here. He's reporting what Mahayana Sangraha is saying. Okay, you have a mind, you have a middle way author reporting what the mind only really thinks.

Okay, because the opponent was confused. He said, if the mind only school believes that working things are real, then why do they talk about an illusion? Okay, okay, and then we say, well it's, they are not like the middle way school.

It's not that they believe things don't exist. It's just that they believe it's not what it seems to be.

[Speaker 2]
So this statement is saying that mind only does not mean, when it says that it's illusory, that there are no outer objects.

[Speaker 1]
Exactly, yeah, and if it were saying that, you'd have trouble in the mind only school.

[Speaker 2]
I thought they thought that there were no outer objects, so I'm a little confused.

[Speaker 1]
Everything is the mind. That's true, but they don't say that objects of the mind don't exist.

[Speaker 3]
The outer objects do exist, they're just not outer, so it's not that they don't exist. It's that they don't exist the way they seem to do, which is outer.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, let's leave it at that. Pasa, are you awake? I don't know, you got a picture there.

[Speaker 2]
DON MED NA, SEMS DANG SEMS BYUNG JI LTAR BSKYED NYAMS PA RTOGS PA'I PHYIR MI RGYU DANG, DON MED NA YI DU'ONG MI YONG LA JI LTAR BCOS NYAMS PA RTOGS PA'I PHYIR MI LAM LA SOGS PA, PHER ZHES PA'I NA U MA PA DANG SKYE BZHIN DU BYAS Good.

[Speaker 1]
DOND MED NA means if there were no objects at all. If there were no objects of the mind at all. If we took illusion in the mind-only school to mean what it means in the middle way school, then there wouldn't be any objects and then there would be no SEMS and SEMS CHUNGS.

[Speaker 2]
Mind and mental factors.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. And it's in order to stop people thinking that. In order to stop people thinking that there are no objects at all and therefore there could be no mind or mental functions.

It's in order to stop that thinking that we talk about a MIKYU, a mirage. So we don't want people in the mind-only school to think there's no mind and mental functions because objects don't exist at all. So how could you have a subject state of mind if objects didn't exist at all?

DOND MED NA and if there were no objects at all, then how could we have experiences of things being YI DU'O LO or YI DU MI'O LO? Pleasurable or not. Good.

Or beautiful or not? I always get confused with the O. It just means attractive.

Attractive. JI LTAR CHOS How could you have sensations or feelings of things as attractive or unattractive if they didn't exist at all? If the objects themselves didn't exist at all.

Therefore, in order to explain why we can still have mind and mental functions, and in order to explain why we can still have attractive, things be attractive to us or unattractive to us, in the mind-only school, we have to say that there is something out there, if only in the sense of a dream, MI LO. In both the case of a mirage and in the case of a dream, you do see something, right? And it may not be what it seems to be, but it still makes you happy and it still triggers different kinds of mental functions.

Cool? Yes. Therefore, U MAPA DANG KYE SHIN TU CHE'O, $100.

[Speaker 2]
Very difficult.

[Speaker 3]
The middle position is unique here.

[Speaker 1]
Say, no. What? No, it's extremely correct.

No. Cancel the bet. This is a shitload difference from the middle way.

Oh. Okay. All right.

SHIN TU CHE. All right. Excuse my interpretation.

Oh, a big distinguishing from... This K means, KHYAD PAR means, this is a zillion times different from the middle way view. Okay, got it?

Cool? We're out of time, boss. Okay, but it's interesting, you guys, right?

So, mind-only school does say that functioning things are like an illusion, but they don't mean it's because there's nothing there and you think there's something there. That's middle way. Mind-only school says things are like an illusion because they seem to be outside, but they're not.

Cool. But they still exist. Big difference.

Huge difference. Okay. Are you guys good?

Yep. All right. Okay.

We'll see you, Nick, this evening. Yeah. Yeah, right now, coming up, we have a question and answer session with Mr. Dr. Sugeng Shi. So you're very lucky to get Sugeng answering all your toughest questions. And then we have yoga with, I'm trying to remember. Aisha.

Aisha. Yoga with Aisha. Thank you for checking the schedule.

And Kitty, no doubt. No doubt.

[Speaker 2]
If anyone wants to stay on, there's one question I would really love you to see from my quiz, if you want to. But go ahead and do your break if you want to, too.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. All right. Grandpa's going to take a break.

Could you stop sharing? Thank you, Geshe-la. Thank you, everybody.

All right. Hang in there. Thank you.

Okay. Bye. Bye-bye.

[Speaker 3]
I'm so excited for this. I've been waiting for it. I was hoping we could go back to Jeopardy.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. We can do the whole quiz just for you, Tim. It's such a great idea.

I love it. That was that answer. It's one of the three aspects.

So we won't do the quiz. I'll go back to it if we have time. So here, we'll do the bonus round.

We'll start with the bonus round. So remember, this is the answer and what you give the question. Neither one nor many.

It's a proof of emptiness. Yeah, it's a proof of emptiness. But there's something particular about this proof of emptiness that's interesting.

Two different philosophical schools use the same proof.

[Speaker 3]
What is the proof?

[Speaker 2]
One is the Sautrantikas and one is the…

[Speaker 3]
Ah, yeah. And they're slightly different.

[Speaker 2]
And, you know, they're used differently. Yeah, sure. But it's used by two different schools.

And that is a segue to this.

[Speaker 3]
Hey, it's Ken Jeong. One at a time? You're a one-nutter?

So you don't make any decisions? Why are you buying mixed nuts and then unmixing them? Oh, you're a foodie now.

[Speaker 2]
Question on America's mind. Is it all or one?

[Speaker 3]
Who knew America would tear itself apart over a relatively minor difference of opinion? Not me. That's heavy.

Is that a Super Bowl commercial?

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 3]
The allegory. Tremendous.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that was amazing. We should put that on our website. You'll probably get sponsorship from Planters.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, there we go.

[Speaker 1]
Let's do it.

[Speaker 2]
Deluxe. Planters Deluxe Mixed Nuts. Thank you, Rapala.

[Speaker 3]
That was great.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 3]
All right. Have a great day, everybody. See you this afternoon.

[Speaker 2]
I hope we get more Jeopardy!