Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 3

[Speaker 2]
NAMDAK SHINGWA DUPHAR SHOK YIDAM BURU RATNAMANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI SANGYE CHUDAM SUKHI CHOKNAM VA CHANG CHU BAR DU DAKTI KHYAB SU CHI DAKTI SHUN YIN GYI PASENAM PHI DROLA PHEN CHIR SANGYE DUPHAR SHOK SANGYE CHUDAM SUKHI CHOKNAM VA CHANG CHU BAR DU DAKTI KHYAB SU CHI DAKTI SHUN YIN GYI PASENAM PHI DROLA PHEN CHIR SANGYE DUPHAR SHOK SANGYE CHUDAM SUKHI CHOKNAM VA CHANG CHU BAR DU DAKTI KHYAB SU CHI DAKTI SHUN YIN GYI PASENAM PHI DROLA PHEN CHIR SANGYE DUPHAR SHOK

[Speaker 1]
Yay, the suffering of homework.

[Speaker 2]
So thank you all for your attendance and your interest in this text because with this text you can, as K. Drupde is going to show us, remove, you can see the nature of reality directly, you can realize that and reach enlightenment. So last class we spent a lot of time, most of the day, speaking about blindness and there were three different metaphors for blindness in different ways.

First we had one from K. Drupde, then we had one from the Diamond Cutter Sutra, and then we had one from the Exalted Brief Presentation of the Pashnaparamita. So how does K.

Drupde use the metaphor of a blind person to talk about the six perfections? Does anyone remember?

[Speaker 3]
I remember you talked about it in terms of wisdom and if you use the six perfections without wisdom it's like being a blind person with no guide.

[Speaker 2]
Right, and that's the only path to achieving omniscience. Yeah, thank you. And now from the Diamond Cutter, this metaphor about blindness is about a person who has eyes and yet cannot see.

So how does this apply to the practice of the perfection? Sitting in a dark room. Right, so that's the person.

What's the, what's going on? They've fallen into the things of giving or something, like coming from its own side. They have fallen into things, yeah, and that's what it means, seeing them as coming from their own side, right?

And what happens because that's their situation? Because then they have fallen into things such as the thinking, the gift, the giver and the giving come from their own side. Right, and because of that they abandon giving.

And then, so then what's the rest of the metaphor as it applies to the perfections? Or what, I guess the remedy, I'm sorry. Oh, when the sun comes up?

Yeah. And they see all kinds of things. So someone who has not fallen.

I guess then if they see things, then they would change the way that they give and all that. Right, they see that all things come from seeds, so they assert themselves in giving. Okay, thank you.

So now we go on to the exalted brief presentation of the Prajnaparamita. And this is a metaphor for reaching enlightenment. Does anyone remember?

Blind leading the blind, remember?

[Speaker 3]
Oh, it doesn't matter how many blind people are leading each other, they still know where to go.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, how could they ever reach their destination if they have no guide and they're all blind? So like that.

[Speaker 3]
In the same way, you just need one sighted person to teach you wisdom, like wisdom is like one sighted person. And it's better than a million people who don't know and are blind.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, those who practice the five, the other five perfections without wisdom are like sightless people without a guide. And they are incapable of making contact with enlightenment. The drava, the trap or a net.

Yeah, this is how it is.

[Speaker 1]
Fallen into.

[Speaker 2]
Fallen, yeah. Thank you. Oh, I forgot to give you my dessert.

Yeah, the dessert.

[Speaker 1]
Where's the dessert?

[Speaker 2]
There it is.

[Speaker 1]
What is that?

[Speaker 2]
It's a blind person. Blind person. With eyes who cannot see.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, I got it. Yeah, that's cute. Okay, that makes the homework more palatable.

Yeah, sorry. No, I like it.

[Speaker 2]
I'm not a very good student, so I apologize for wasting everyone's time. That was really good homework. No, I'm not asking for praise.

No, but it was, actually.

[Speaker 1]
It was very clear. Yeah, okay, okay. Here we go.

Are we... Is this where we are, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yes, it is. Lung De.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, we had quoted some kind of tantric scripture which seemed to indicate that the emptiness of the heaps wasn't real emptiness, or something like that. And Dalai Lama says... Sorry, K.W.J.'s goal was to try to prove that you need to understand the same emptiness in the open teachings and the secret teachings. But then the secret teachings were describing some kind of strange emptiness. So somebody said, I don't think it's the same. And here's his response.

Who's going to be your checker checker?

[Speaker 2]
Hasso.

[Speaker 1]
Hasso. Who's up, Hasso?

[Speaker 2]
Or Thangkang.

[Speaker 1]
Who's up, Thangkang?

[Speaker 2]
Let me see. Tim?

[Speaker 1]
Okay, Tim, check Utpala. Here we go. Lung De Döni.

[Speaker 2]
Lung De Döni.

[Speaker 1]
Thanks for being perfect. Okay. All right.

Now the meaning of that Kalachakra statement, I think it was, right? Yeah. Is...

RIG PA'I BYAS PA'I GNYIS DON SEMS MA YIN GYIS MA YIN GYIS It's not talking about the DON that you GNAS PA by doing a BYAS PA with RIG PA.

[Speaker 2]
It's not talking about the meaning that you find when examining with logic.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, or DON here means object, okay? So, what is the object that you locate when you use, when you do a examination with logic? DBANG PO NI Yeah, good.

Emptiness. Good, good. So, he says look, that quotation isn't talking about the thing you find when you look for emptiness with logic.

Okay? And it's not talking about the fact that you DON LA PA PA the PHUNG POS as being DON MED when you RIG PA'I BYAS.

[Speaker 2]
It's... okay, it's not talking about... DON LA PA PA But it's not talking...

[Speaker 1]
the PHUNG POS as DON MED when you use RIG PA.

[Speaker 2]
It's not falling down the... established...

[Speaker 1]
what? DON LA PA PA means established, yeah?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, established.

[Speaker 1]
It's not talking about establishing that the PHUNG POS are DON MED.

[Speaker 2]
That the heaps are not real.

[Speaker 1]
Good, by using RIG PA.

[Speaker 2]
By examining with wisdom.

[Speaker 1]
I mean reasoning. Sorry. It's a repeat of the first part of the sentence, but he just mentioned the PHUNG POS, okay?

It's... this statement in the Kalachakra Tantra is not describing what it means to... to determine that...

That's good for DON LA PA PA. To determine that the heaps are empty by using logic. It's not talking about that.

What it's talking about is... If you use your RIG PA and then... by the way, this C-A-D should be C-A-N-G.

This C-A-D should be C-A-N-G. In the third line, in the middle of the third line. Which means it's an abbreviation for CI YANG.

CI YANG MED. CI YANG MED. ZHANG MED.

Okay, so what's CI YANG MED mean, you guys, in the lion's dance?

[Speaker 2]
Nothing at all.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. We had it in Sugeng's text for the third formless realm result level. Okay.

When you meditate on trying to stop the mind, if you do it for a long time in this life, you will end up in a formless realm called CI YANG MED, okay? And that formless realm... Yeah?

Is it the causal meditation or the resultant realm? The resulting realm is called CI YANG MED. But you always...

You always... You're always meditating there also, actually. Anyway...

So ZHANG MED means nothing at all. It's not... I'm sorry.

This is a GOG PA. This kala chakra quotation that you pulled out is a denial that...

[Speaker 2]
That nothing exists.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that when you use your logic you will find out that... You will find out that the pumbos are CI YANG MED. Okay.

All right. Got it? This kala chakra quotation is not attempting to describe that when you examine the parts of a person, you find that they are not coming from their own side.

What this quotation is talking about is be careful about using the emptiness logic and coming up with the conclusion that the pumbos are CI YANG MED. What's that mean?

[Speaker 2]
Don't exist.

[Speaker 1]
Don't exist at all, okay? So this was not a... This was not...

Listen, this description of the heaps as being nothing at all is not... it's actually a GAG BYA. They're trying to disprove that that could be emptiness, okay?

Now, why did that guy, why did the opponent pull out a kala chakra statement that said the meaning of emptiness is that the heaps don't exist at all?

[Speaker 2]
Because Khedrupji just told us that there is no difference at all in the emptiness between the open and secret teachings.

[Speaker 1]
Hundred dollar answer. My gosh. Okay, Eli, hundred dollar answer to a zero dollar question.

[Speaker 2]
That was Utpala, right? Yeah, that's a great...

[Speaker 1]
No, it was Utpala, I think. And it's a perfect answer. It's a perfect answer.

Yeah, okay, got it? So the other guy's trying to say, no, no, no. The emptiness they use in the tantric teachings, when we graduate the tantra, the emptiness we have to use is the one that says you don't exist at all.

And Khedrupji says, no, no, no, no, no. That was criticizing someone who thought that emptiness meant that nothing existed at all, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Why should we practice tantra if it means there's nothing?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, now last line here. CHE STONG POG PA means it was a refutation of the idea that emptiness means you should cut all existence.

Check. Okay, it's like Dorje Chupa, okay? Different tense.

Okay, it was a denial of the idea that emptiness could be the obviation of existence, okay? All right. Obviation.

Yeah, that's a good $20 word right there. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Venkalmi, can you please check? Oh, I don't think I have this text, Geshe-la. I know I'm open to the one you just sent me this morning.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I was doing corrections during your homework.

[Speaker 2]
Could you send that to me, please?

[Speaker 1]
I didn't do much. Oh, yeah, I did do much actually.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Let me see here. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Just so I can make notes because if we go through this thing, if we're not going to go through that substantiation of the quote, then that's okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, we're not gonna. Okay. Wait, who's checking this lady?

[Speaker 2]
Venkalmi. Venkalmi.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, Venkalmi. Hey, Venkalmi, did you eat a crepe with Nutella for me? Can you just eat one for me?

We'll do this, yes, with great pleasure. Okay, thank you. Take me a photo.

Send me a photo to prove it. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
All right.

[Speaker 1]
You want to struggle with this? By the way, what it says is that's why the Great Commentary to the Kalachakra, which is called Vimala Light, says, that's why the Great Commentary, this famous Kalachakra commentary says, now struggle with these two lines and make them sweet. RING Oh, I'll give you a clue, okay?

RING DU BYED means RING DU BYED means try to remove yourself as far as possible from this idea.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, so we've got the body and mind, emptiness, body and mind, examining, no. I don't know.

[Speaker 1]
I'll do the...

[Speaker 2]
I know the words, but I don't know how to do it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I'll do the syntax with you. Try to, what do you call that when you set yourself far away from somebody? Try to...

Distance yourself. What is it called? Distance yourself.

Yeah, great, great, great. Yeah. Try to distance yourself from the idea that the SDONG PA NYID of the PHUNG PO that you find when you NAM PAR BYED PA, that the emptiness that you find of the PHUNG POs, of the body and mind, when you NAM PAR BYED PA, when you examine them, yeah, distance yourself from the idea that that emptiness consists of BYED PA'I STONG NYID.

[Speaker 2]
Consists of an absence of emptiness.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, or no, an emptiness which is the absence of any existence at all. Okay. Okay, BYED DA, BYED DA, BYED DA, right?

The extreme view that the meaning of emptiness is that there's no husband in the kitchen at all. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. And so this guy keeps hitting on the Kalachakra tantra saying, it says emptiness is nothing at all. And we say, okay, then why does the most famous commentary to the Kalachakra says, try to distance yourself from the idea that the emptiness of your body and mind that you find through examination with logic is nothing.

Okay. It's emptiness in the sense of nothing at all. BYED PA.

Okay, got it? Thank you. I found a slightly relevant Kalachakra commentary, but I'm not satisfied, so I'm gonna not use it yet.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And I'm gonna go back and find you a better one. Okay, who's checking?

[Speaker 2]
Christina, Christina, Kaska. Yay. GZHAN DU NA GCIG DANG DU BRAL GYI THAG DANG RNAMS SKYE MED TOGS KYI PAS RNAMS SHES KYI PHUNG PO RANG BZHIN MED PAR BYED PAS KHO NA'I U MA PAS DE KHO NA GNYIS RIGS PA LAS DNGIS PAS RDOR DU BDUN PAR GSUNGS PA DANG RGYAL LOS Yeah, GZHAN DU NA means moreover.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, moreover, you GYAL LOS, your idea GYAL LOS conflicts with, contradicts. Yeah, good. The DOR DU BDUN PAR means the seventh brief point, the seventh brief point made in the LUS GNYIS PA, the second chapter of the Kalachakra Tantra.

Of the Kalachakra Tantra.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, and Kalachakra is divided into little vignettes which are called DOR DUS. So in the second chapter, in the seventh vignette, it makes statements that contradict what you're just saying, okay? Because in the seventh vignette it says, I don't know, the reason I'm using that word is because he promised me a crepe with Nutella.

And so I'm trying to use a French word. Okay. That chapter describes CIG TU RDOL.

[Speaker 2]
One and the same?

[Speaker 1]
The reason for proving emptiness, which is called there's no one and there's no many. Yeah, neither one nor many, right? And moreover, it gives the BAS of a NAM KHA'I MED TOG.

[Speaker 2]
It gives the example of a sky flower.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, a flower that could grow in mid-air, okay? I think that's a good translation because the point is there's no water, there's no soil, there's no sunlight. It's just growing in mid-air, okay, with no sustenance, okay?

And it says, NAM ZHIG GI PHUNG PO RANG BZHIN MED PAR BYED PA'I SGO NAS, When you examine whether the heap of awareness comes from its own side, you can understand DE KHO NA NYID.

[Speaker 2]
You can understand substance.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and so it uses, that chapter uses the famous Middle Way argument about one and many, and it uses the famous metaphor of a flower that could grow in mid-air to say, okay, it's instrumental on the PAD, right? To say that you can understand emptiness as the Middle Way guys do if you examine the heap of your own mind and find out that it doesn't have any nature from its own side. It doesn't say there's no mind at all, okay?

CHEB, CHEB, CHEB PA, okay? So, by the way, what did I tell you he was going to do after he said he didn't want to go on too long?

[Speaker 2]
He would go on too long.

[Speaker 1]
They always do that. He said, I don't want to go on too long.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I'm not going to use too many. There's so many quotes I could give you.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, but I, you know, I'm not going to go on too long and then he went on too long anyway. Okay. Who's checking?

Ella Lu.

[Speaker 2]
Yay, Ella Lu. GZHAN YANG CHOG MIN RGYUR GYI DOR BDOD LAS GZHAN YANG CHOG MIN RGYUR GYI DOR BDOD LAS PHYI'ANG YID MA PHYI'ANG YID LA MIN RJE'I PA DE KHO NA NYID GOM PA YIN PA'ANG GOGS PA'I KHABS GZUGS Say me?

[Speaker 1]
Okay, GZHAN YANG CHOG MIN RGYUR BA'I DOR DOR DOR BDOD LAS I don't know, I don't know this expression. It's a briefer presentation of a Kalachakra tantra, maybe, called CHOG MIN RGYUR, but that's a weird name for a scripture because it would mean...

[Speaker 2]
Not becoming high?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, not the best one. And I wonder if it's MIN RGYUR in the sense of unchanging. In fact, it's certainly MIN RGYUR, meaning the unchanging supreme.

The immutable supreme. And from the briefer presentation of that, which it must be some Kalachakra scripture, and I'll find it for you. I just didn't have time today.

PHYI'ANG YID MA PHYI'ANG YID LA MIN RJE'I PA DE KHO NA NYID GOM PA YIN GOGS That scripture gogs the idea It refutes the idea that PHYI'ANG YID MA PHYI'ANG YID LA MIN RJE'I PA could be We had it in Nick's text. We had a long discussion of it at the beginning of his text. So I'm becoming familiar with it.

Nick, go for it. Oh, no, it's PHYI'ANG YID MA MIN RJE'I PA DE That meditating on emptiness, or the direct perception of emptiness in the case of what Counselor Jay was talking about means that there's no mind at all. Yeah, and we go by that.

Yeah, we refute that idea. Yeah, thinking about nothing is what meditation on emptiness is. In the Kalachakra, in this Kalachakra commentary, they refute that.

They refute that. That's correct. So, actually, he's giving more and more detail.

Alright, who's checking next?

[Speaker 2]
Gibson. Uh-oh, he's thinking. ZHUGS PA'I YA ZHES NI CHOS THAMS CAD KYIS RANG BZHIN MED PA'I NYID THOB PAR BYED PA'I DE DNGOS PO MED PA'I TSE NYID BZHIN DU NYID LOGS PA'I SEMS NI MA YIN NO ZHES RANG BZHIN MED PA'I CHOS THAMS CAD KYIS DE'I KHO NAR GSUNGS NA Good.

[Speaker 1]
And this is a very, this is the quotation it sounds like. DER DE ZHES BYED PA'I YA ZHES NI What does it mean when we talk about the wisdom of the Buddha? It's a state of mind in which you realize that nothing in the universe has any nature of its own.

I don't want to see the translation all the things in the universe don't have a nature. We're going to say nothing in the universe has any nature. And then he gives a very, I'm going to give, I don't know, 50 bucks for this next line.

DNGOS PO MED PA'I TSE NYID BZHIN DU NYID LOGS PA'I SEMS NI MA YIN NO BZHIN DU NYID LOGS PA'I SEMS NI MA YIN NO 50 bucks. So it is something about things, the definition of things is not very I'm not saying that the DE BZHIN ZHES PA'I YA ZHES is BZHIN DU NYID LOGS PA'I SEMS. That's what it says.

[Speaker 2]
That the wisdom of the Buddha is Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Okay, cancel that. It's a sleep in your mind. It's something that's late, Mr. Banker. I was waiting for Venerable Upala. Okay, okay, okay.

[Speaker 2]
I'll give you my $100, no worries.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, Mr. Banker, if you can give it to me very sweetly. Okay, let's go.

[Speaker 3]
DE BZHIN ZHES PA'I YA ZHES NI BZHIN DU NYID LOGS PA'I SEMS NI MA YIN I'm not saying that the wisdom of the Tathagatas is something that is a sleep in your mind and that you It's a SEM which is BZHIN DU NYID LOGS PA'I Right, it's a mental state that is like very Yeah, it's a sleep in your mind and you can just wake up and understand it.

[Speaker 1]
Nah, cancel that money, okay? Okay, yay! We saved some money.

I'm not saying that the wisdom of the Buddha is a state of mind in which you are deeply asleep. That's what it says. What's the LOGS PA doing again?

NYID LOGS is the idiom for sleeping asleep. Deep sleep? Yeah, sleeping sleep.

LOGS is the verb for sleep. NYID means sleep. I guess it means to blank out or something.

I don't know man, if you can't make a life tool out of that. The Kala Chakra Tantra is saying I never said that the wisdom of the Buddha was to achieve some kind of deep sleep. In other words, Chiang Mai, right?

Thinking about nothing. About deep sleep, about how things have no nature.

[Speaker 2]
Can you get that teleprompter thing for the...

[Speaker 1]
It's on. Okay. What that's saying is that the real DE KHO NA NYID is RANG BZHIN MED PA.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, real suchness is no self nature.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the fact that nothing is itself. Now, he's not done yet. Okay.

I'm going to split this one and make it a little bit easier. Okay, who's checking?

[Speaker 2]
Annabelle Kelsey. Yay! NYID PAR RANG BZHIN MED MONG BAR BYED PA'I THA DAG NYID ROL BA NI SDUG BSNGAL DAG LAS SDUG BSNGAL RDZIN BAR BYED BYED PA'I RDZIN BAR Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I really like this. In the second chapter of the Kalachakra it says RGYUD MED MONG BAR BYED PA'I THA DAG All of those who are made stupid by the illusion. All people who are blinded by the illusion.

They want to escape suffering but they are grabbing it. They are grabbing it. BYED PA'I RDZIN BAR By the way, I think that's the root text of the Kalachakra.

In the commentary to that it says Please go.

[Speaker 2]
INA Dear Corwig, RGYUD MA RNGAR RDZIN PA DANG RNGAR RDZIN RGYUN RDZIN RGYUD MA RNGAR RDZIN PA'I DAG NI CHEN GYIS MONG BAR BYED PA NI NYAL BA DANG YI DAG DANG RDUN DROL SDUG BSNGAL DAG LAS SDUG BSNGAL RDZIN BAR BYED PA'I

[Speaker 1]
Those who are wrapped up in the illusion of samsara who are grabbing to me and mine, RNGAR and RNGAR RDZIN PA DAG NI CHEN DAG NI CHEN here means the nature of the ignorance is that it grabs to me and mine.

Those who are made blind or are in the dark because of that habit, they want to escape the hell realms, the preta realms, the animal realms. But actually they are embracing them. RGYUD MA RNGAR RDZIN PA They are embracing that suffering.

Keep going. Who's checking? This sure is an interesting nod going on about it.

[Speaker 2]
ZHES NGAN TANG NGAN YON RDZIN PA KHOR BA'I SDUG BSNGAL GYI RTZA BAR ZHES PA'I KHOR BA'I RTZA BAR CHOS CHEG GYIS NYAN PO NI DAG MED RTOGS PA'I ZHES RAB NYID YIN PAR ZHES PA LA PA'I ROL DU BYIN PA'I DUNG MA PA'I DANG MI DUM PA TSUNG ZHES KHANG MED DOG ZHES No, ZHES ZHES PAR BYA'O The ZHES PAR BYA'O at the end is frequently a little what do you call that?

[Speaker 1]
It's frequently a little rough. ZHES PAR BYA'O Okay, so come on, try to understand, this is something you've got to understand. And it's almost insulting, or putting people down.

Hey, try to get it, just try to get it, all right? Try to get it. What?

That SNGA DANG SNGA YARD ZIN PA The tendency to hold to a me and mine is the root, RTZA BA, of the korway dunya, of suffering of samsara. ZHES PA That's what the book is really saying. And therefore, korway RTZA BA CHOS BYAS KYI NYAN PO The antidote which cuts off the root of samsara is DAG MED RTOGS PA'I ZHES RIM What's that?

[Speaker 2]
It's the wisdom of realizing that there's nothing that has a self-nature.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and now give me the meaning of NYID.

[Speaker 2]
Itself. The wisdom itself.

[Speaker 1]
Nope. GCIG NYID Alone. One and only.

Yeah, it's the one and only, okay? It's that and nothing else, okay? It's that and nothing else.

YIN PAR ZHES That's what the Kalachakra teaches. That's what the Kalachakra says is their own RANG LUGS. ZHES PA means this is our position.

What? That if you want to cut the roots of samsara, the only thing you can use is wisdom which perceives that nothing is itself. Now, there's absolutely no MI THON PA with the UMAPAS.

[Speaker 2]
There's nothing different with the Middle Way?

[Speaker 1]
Who are PAR DO THU CHIN PA side of things.

[Speaker 2]
Who are on the perfection of wisdom side of things?

[Speaker 1]
Meaning the open teachings here, right? Here it means open teachings. Remember we said PAR DO THU CHIN PA can be opposed to SANG SNGAGS.

Then he says, hey, ZHES PA BYA'O.

[Speaker 2]
You got to understand that.

[Speaker 1]
Try to get it, man. Try to get it. I explained it to you for three or four pages now.

Try to get that there's not the slightest difference between emptiness as taught in the Middle Way, open teachings, and tantra. There's not the slightest difference between those two emptinesses. Okay, who's up next?

[Speaker 2]
There's more. Rick, can you do it?

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Okay. Good.

Okay. By the way, he's already mentioned CIG TU BRAL, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Classic proofs for emptiness found in the open teachings of the Middle Way. Now he refers to THA SHI'I SGOG PAS RIGS PA in the third line. THA SHI'I SGOG PAS RIGS PA Which was in your first talk.

[Speaker 2]
I know.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the four possibilities. Good. Here are the four possibilities.

DRE BUS come from themselves.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Causes come from themselves.

[Speaker 1]
Results. Results. They also don't come from GZHAN.

[Speaker 2]
From anything else.

[Speaker 1]
They also don't come from GNYIS KA.

[Speaker 2]
Both of them.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, both themselves and other things. They also can't happen without a GYU.

[Speaker 2]
Without a cause.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. By the way, he's quoting the second chapter of the great commentary to the Kalachakra. Here's this classic open teaching Middle Way proof.

Therefore... Then it says... If you want to get more details about emptiness, you can go read the open teachings of the Middle Way, says the Kalachakra.

Don't tell me there's different emptiness in Tantra and in Sutra. Don't try to sell me that.

[Speaker 2]
You could have just used this one.

[Speaker 1]
By the way, the guy's not giving it up. The guy's not giving it up. Here you go.

[Speaker 2]
Emily Chen, can you please check?

[Speaker 1]
Uh-oh. Two lines, Utpala. Two lines.

[Speaker 2]
Keep going. Okay, cool.

[Speaker 1]
Hey, but don't... The guy's not giving it up. He says, hey, don't we see in the same Tantra that it says that emptiness is explained as something you can see with your normal perceptions?

DMIGS BYAS It's not DMIGS MED. DMIGS MED TSE BA'I LTAR BYEN CHEN RIGS SU It's not that you see there's nothing. Doesn't that Tantra say you see there's something?

They describe emptiness as a case where you do see something. It's not DMIGS MED. Doesn't that Tantra say that when you see emptiness, it can be DMIGS BYAS.

You can have a normal object in your mind. Then we say ZHES MED. Okay, now listen.

It says that. Yeah, I admit it says that, but it's not talking about real emptiness. It's talking about...

DU PHRA RAB ZAGS PA'I BSTAN PA'I STONG PA It's talking about how there's no physical matter which is really composed of partless atoms. That's just a refutation of partless atoms, the concept of a partless atom. It's not a refutation of the concept of a self-existent thing.

Okay, got it? The GAC CHA, in the case of that quotation, is BAN PO, physical matter, which could consist of accumulations of partless atomic particles. It's just calling that STONG PA NYID.

THA NI'I TSE means kind of like a nickname, but it's not the real emptiness. Got it? It's saying that the table that your computer is sitting on is empty of partless atoms, but it's not talking about real emptiness.

That's not real emptiness. He never said that was real emptiness. He's just using that emptiness word to describe how we reject the idea of partless atoms.

Okay, cool? The GAC CHA there is not self-existence. Okay, got it?

Now, you want the real emptiness? Well, NAM PA'I THAMS CAD PA'I GSUNG KHON RDZOGS PA STE Now, if you described all physical objects as being deceptive reality, then you would be getting to real emptiness. If you described all physical manifestations as lying to you, well, then you would get to the real GAC CHA, which is DEN GRUB, that things could exist from their own side.

But that's not the suchness here, MA YIN. That's not the emptiness he's talking about here. He's not talking about real emptiness when he says you can still have an object in your mind when you perceive emptiness.

He's not saying that. He's saying that's just a GAC CHA of an argument about partless atoms. Okay, cool?

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Yay, okay. Next, who's checking?

[Speaker 2]
Alexandro Rivas. DE LTA BU'I GSUG LAS KHYAD PAS DE BA CHEN PO'I YAS HE NI DE KHO NA NI LA DMIGS PA'I PHYIR DE BA DMIGS PA'I DUS LEN GCIG MA YIN PAR ZHES DU Yeah, okay.

[Speaker 1]
But, okay now, there is a wisdom of great bliss which can be triggered based on that kind of physical matter when you're doing partner practice in Tantra. There is a wisdom of great bliss which keep us from those physical objects. And that wisdom, which is triggered by your channel work, it can focus on real emptiness.

Therefore, LEN GCIG MA YIN PAR means the Kalachakra Tantra, in not a few places, calls it DMIGS MED. They call that bliss, DE BA, DMIGS MED bliss.

[Speaker 2]
Bliss with nothing it sees.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the bliss of nothing it sees. So don't go telling me DMIGS BYED in the last line. Where is that?

Here, three lines above. Yeah, okay, it talks about DMIGS BYED emptiness, where you can put your mind on something, but that's just talking about atomic particles. It's not talking about emptiness.

When they get to the subject of great bliss, which comes from the physical matter that doesn't have partless atoms, they constantly call it DMIGS MED bliss. Not once, not twice, a thousand times. Got it?

So don't tell me the emptiness taught in Tantra is different from the emptiness we're going to learn in this book. He's advertising his book, by the way. Ned, keep going.

Who's checking?

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Thank you. DI DAG LA SPYOD PAR BYA BA CHE MANG DU YOD MOD KYIS THON MONGS DU NYE PAR BYA BA MA YIN PAS CHOS THANG KHAB MA YIN PAS CHIN GYUR MA BYUD LA Okay, this is so funny.

[Speaker 1]
This is so funny. Hey, SPYOD PAR BYA BA CHE MANG about this subject, about these points. About these points, DI DAG LA There's a SPYOD PAR BYA BA CHE MANG So many?

Yeah, there's so much I could say about these topics. YOD MOD KYIS But? But?

[Speaker 2]
I don't want this to go too long? No.

[Speaker 1]
It's not something we're supposed to talk in a THON MONGS DU setting.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, a setting where everyone's around.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, in an open scripture setting we're not supposed to be... NYE PAR means we're not supposed to be talking about it. NYE PAR means to give utterance to.

It's a very ancient word and it's perfect here. These subjects about how bliss has no object it sees when you use the physical parts of your body that have no atoms. Now listen, it's cool stuff.

I admit it's cool stuff, but it's not something you're supposed to give utterance to in a shared teaching. And moreover...

[Speaker 2]
SKABS MA YIN This is not the circumstance, the right circumstance?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, this is not the context. We're not talking... this is not a tantric book.

I'm not writing a tantric book. So first of all, it would be improper to talk about tantra too long in this book. And secondly, it's not what I'm writing about today.

So I'm going to MA BYUD.

[Speaker 2]
I'm not going to talk about it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I'm not going to go on about it, although I just went on about it. Okay, one more paragraph.

[Speaker 2]
Bertha, could you please check? Sure, thank you. Good.

GZHAN THAMS CAD PHUNG BAR BYED PA BYED MANG DU MTHONG BA'I DGOS TZAM ZHIG SMOS PA YIN NO Good.

[Speaker 1]
UN KYANG Now he's going to justify why he did go on. UN KYANG But... TSUL DI LTA BU'I LOGS PA'I LAM LA BRTZAL NAS We see people who are spiritual searchers using this kind of wrong path, where they try to perceive emptiness as nothing and then have sex with everybody as tantra.

We see these kind of people. That kind of approach is a big gig. Blockage.

Like spiritual constipation. For those who are really parinpa, who really want to taste, TZAM MO STONG PA NYID. What's that?

[Speaker 2]
Profound emptiness.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and then these kind of people, PHUNG BA themselves and other people. We had this meaning of PHUNG BA in Seiji's text, wasn't it? Yeah, PHUNG BYED.

Yeah, PHUNG BYED RTOG PA'I DGOS LA CHEM ZAD CHEM PHUNG BYED RTOG PA'I DGOS LA CHEM ZAD CHEM They're dancing on the head. RTOG PA'I meaning wrong ideas. PHUNG BYED, which ruins my life.

Which wastes my life. Look, you can TONG.

[Speaker 2]
CHE MUNG So many great...

[Speaker 1]
So many people. So many. CHE means many.

This spelling with an S means you can see so many people.

[Speaker 2]
So many many? Isn't MUNG DU many too?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, CHE MUNG means extremely many. People who are PHUNG BA-ing themselves and others.

[Speaker 2]
Who are creating? No. Barricading themselves and others?

[Speaker 1]
They are ruining their life and other people's life. Therefore, I had to MUD PA DGOS TZAM ZHIG I had to talk about this just a little bit. Yeah, DGOS TZAM means just introduce you to it.

It means just the door. Just the door, right? I just gave you a little peek into it.

Because I see so many people in the world ruining their life, ruining other people's life, by teaching that emptiness means nothing at all in tantra. Okay? Cool?

Yeah. Thank you. Yay!

I think we're done. Am I right? That's a pretty good place to stop.

Yeah, it's perfect timing again. No, it wasn't me. It was a kid in me.

By the way, the whole book is worth those few pages, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
That would really help people. If nothing else happens in this book, even if the lion's dance wasn't taught for like 10 pages in this book. By the way, it is the most exquisite teaching on the lion's dance that I've ever seen.

The lion's dance comes from the ancient sutras. It's mentioned many times in the Kangyur. All right.

Here we go.

[Speaker 2]
SASHI PUKITI SHINGE TORO TRANG MI RA VING SHI NINDE GYEN PA DI SANGE SHINGU NI TE U BAR DI DROKUN NAMDAG SHINGWA DU PAR SHOK HIRAMBURU RATAMANDALAKAMYURTANAM GYE WA DI GYE WO KUN SU NAM NYE SHE TOK SOG SHI SU NAM NYE SHE LE JUNG TAM PA TENG YI TAO FA LU SHOK Yay, Utpala. Thank you, Geshe-la.

[Speaker 1]
Nice choice of books. Thank you, Geshe-la. Thank you, Utpala.

Who's sponsoring it today? Erin. Ooh.

Live from the patio.