Бен Крамер — Книга 2: Драгоценность истинной мысли (Геше Йеше Вангчук о Дхармакирти), занятие 11

[Speaker 2]
Yay, thank you. Okay, do we have enough people for homework?

[Speaker 1]
He's studying. Hey, I refuse to do the homework. I have enough time to teach, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay. All right. Everybody, please name.

We'll work through it together. Six topics for newer students found in Chapachiki Senge's book of collected topics. Give me one instead of six.

Topics such as colors and shapes. Yeah, look, it's the first one even.

[Speaker 3]
Opposites of what is and is not.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, what's the Tibetan for colors and shapes? Cool. What did you say next?

What's another topic? Opposites of what is and is not. Yeah.

Tibetan? Cool. What's next?

Oh, let someone else play. Wow. I feel like I just take over.

I think let might be the wrong word, but if someone wants to, they can assert themselves. You could say make someone else play. A lesser treatment of causes and results.

Yeah. Tibetan? Cool.

Very impressive. I bet you know the rest of the answers, and no one else wants to give them. Maybe.

Cool. Deal. Yeah.

Then?

[Speaker 3]
And it's opposite.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, right. Oh, it's down here. Contradictions and relationships.

Yeah, great. Cool. Great.

Well, then, while you're at it, how about for medium capacity students, for intermediate students? You only need three here. Right.

[Speaker 1]
Something about calculating the genitive grammar case?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, something like that. What's Tibetan? Yeah.

That's it.

[Speaker 1]
That's it. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Right. Cool. Right.

How to parse the sixth grammatical case. I'm not sure that that's actually what the topic amounts to, but that seems to be at least what it's called. And then?

The location of absence. Oh, right. Oh, I like that.

Tibetan? Actually. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

That doesn't need to be. And then? I don't know this one.

Oh, cool. I put down tripang, but I don't know. Well.

Tripang namshak. Yeah. Well, namshak is a what?

It's a presentation of. Oh, something about logic. So logical.

No. Well, I like you were going to say interrogations, which is a word for questions, which is the first one, which is the tree. And then the pong is apparently.

Expansion. Yeah. Expansion.

Yeah. Look at that.

[Speaker 1]
Uh-huh. Interrogation and expansion.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Apparently, but we don't know. Well, we did.

We actually read about it. And maybe we're not going to know much more until Adam eventually cracks it for us. Oh, yeah.

But in the meantime, I only had to figure out what the words meant. And then it's going to be his problem to understand them.

[Speaker 1]
What do you call it when you. I don't know. There's a brief phrase and then you.

[Speaker 2]
Stand on it.

[Speaker 1]
You expand on it. But there's another word. There's another expression in English.

But it's like that. It's like that. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Elaborate.

[Speaker 1]
Elaborate, as Dina says. That it has some kind of sense of stretching it out.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, elaborate. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Maybe elaborate. Yeah. Okay.

It means when you add extra syllables, then the meaning of the expression changes. It's too brief in its original form to understand correctly.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, to flesh out or something. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
When you expand on it or something like that. Yeah. And it's again, it's a parsing.

It's a thing about parsing. Correct parsing.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. So I only gave us two questions because there were what? Nine questions in the two questions.

And Udpala powered through them. So here, you gave me a few little spots here and there, boss. And this is one of them for your viewing pleasure, however.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I like it. The things we said about advancing clear reasoning through statements. Consequence, eliminating, I think it's not.

Engaging in elimination of primitive objects. Oh, man, this is disgusting.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, that's good.

[Speaker 1]
It's like two classes in a row.

[Speaker 2]
Isn't that nice when we've learned to be happy when you frown?

[Speaker 1]
What am I going to do? I'm going to have to retire. I don't know what I'm going to do.

I know what, I can work in the Black Hawk Cafe.

[Speaker 2]
Good news for you. I have yet to... Here, I'll screw up the next ones.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Screw up something, made me feel better.

[Speaker 2]
For example.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's also perfect. Disgusting.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Well, so here's a... I did a weird thing here and I might have to make this thing smaller to fit.

Oh boy. And I have so many faces.

[Speaker 1]
If it were me, I would cover the word mom or I would give it some weight.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, say that again. Oh, the word mom.

[Speaker 1]
Path of reasoning.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Yeah. And this is a thing, right?

This is a three-part study, I guess, that everybody knows about and everybody talks about or something. And I didn't really... It just felt like it must be a thing that I don't know about, but it's famous.

[Speaker 1]
Don't forget that every monk in the monastery has studied Dürer pretty extensively. So they know about the three different presentations. Like you spend a year on Rig Lam Chung, and then you spend a year on Rig Lam Ring, like that.

[Speaker 2]
And they all think of them as the three... Rig Lam, yeah?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, like Path of Logic or Path of Reasoning or something. Okay, okay. All right, cool.

[Speaker 2]
I'll play with that. I'll fix that up. Okay.

Some of these were hard.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. I like... Oh, so far it's good.

Examination of objects. By the way, what famous book's chapters are called Takpas?

[Speaker 3]
Arya Nagarjuna?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, Wisdom, okay? So he's almost making a statement when he calls his chapters Takpas. Oh, cool.

Yeah. Okay. Examination of objects.

Examination of the mind. We call it Encounterist Thing. This was a hard one.

Yeah, it's just... You could say expressions and... It's really...

Topics and expressions, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Whoa. Topics and...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Sorry, the next one. Oh, great.

[Speaker 2]
Sure.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, four was correct.

[Speaker 2]
That was upsetting. All right, cool.

[Speaker 1]
But literally, it means things to be talked about and the ways you talk about them.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay. So it's not...

[Speaker 1]
Subjects and...

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
We call the things that express subjects. Subjects and treatments or something like that.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, subject and...

[Speaker 1]
Treatments, I guess.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, boy. Okay, so it's not like what expresses things and... It is.

It's not expressions and what expresses them?

[Speaker 1]
It is, but DROD BYA came to mean a topic or a subject of a book. And DROD BYA means the book itself.

[Speaker 2]
Wow.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Examining relationships.

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry.

[Speaker 2]
Can we still talk about that just for another second?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, go ahead.

[Speaker 2]
Like topics and how we address those stuff? Like topics and ways of talking about them? Yeah, exactly.

All right, I'll play with it.

[Speaker 1]
All right, cool. But it could be more fundamental like expression and... Express that expression.

That would be a good name for it. Express that expression. Yeah.

Yeah, that'd be a good name for it. Six is examination of relationships. Seven is examination of contradiction.

Eight is... Yeah, what do we call eight nowadays?

[Speaker 2]
I don't know if I know that it changed.

[Speaker 1]
TSEN TSEN. TSEN TSEN.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I see. Definitions and the things that are defined and the things that are defined. Yeah, right.

[Speaker 1]
We're supposed to do that here, so I didn't...

[Speaker 2]
Definendum? Why? Yeah, nobody wants that.

Nine is... I played with this, you know. I thought that like...

Right, NGON SEMS can also mean obvious stuff. And I just had this feeling that in the book, he isn't necessarily just going to refer to perception.

[Speaker 1]
Well, you have to say nine relative to 10 and 11.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay, I just didn't know, you know, like until you read it. But okay, if we can assume that it probably means that.

[Speaker 1]
It does mean direct perception, yeah. Because the next two are deduction, yeah. Yeah, and everything else is good.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, everything else is good.

[Speaker 2]
Got nice.

[Speaker 1]
So you might see it as... It's kind of a bridge to the current Dora, right? From CHAKPA CHUKTI SENGE.

So CHAKPA CHUKTI SENGE is about 100 years before Sakyapandita. Okay, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, well... Oh, okay. And then...

All right, look. So I'm still, boss, struggling a little bit. Yeah, that's okay.

Ravi Gupta. I just want to talk about it real quick. We want somehow, right?

We found two Ravi Gupta books, one that seems like a general commentary and one that seems like a commentary to the third chapter, even though we would like the first one to be a commentary on both the first and second chapter. It's here, okay? Just in case, right?

And I did, you know... I mean, I can look... Here.

Liu. It does happen five times. But whoops, and I already just skipped the first one.

Okay, but look. I mean, we're already at Qi in the beginning, which is not what we were hoping.

[Speaker 1]
Well, that just says, you can refer to this when we get to the fourth chapter.

[Speaker 2]
Right. So we didn't, right? And we're already a little bit in.

So it means we didn't necessarily start with the first chapter. And then the next... Here, we're on the three.

[Speaker 1]
But that's the future tense. I'm going to cover this in chapter three, you see?

[Speaker 2]
Still future tense. Okay, so... Oh, Shepa, so does that mean, hey, we just finished the first chapter here then?

[Speaker 1]
Let me see. BSTAN GZE'I MA NGAN PO'I SHES LUS DANG MA BSTAN TOG That just is a reference to one line in the first chapter.

[Speaker 2]
It's not great. Okay, and then... Here, there's a...

[Speaker 1]
Oh, here's the real end of the second chapter, yeah. Okay, and then this is the end.

[Speaker 2]
I mean, it's like a colophon.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and there's no colophon. It doesn't appear. Yeah, it seems like it might be one of those books where the author never finished it.

[Speaker 2]
So, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Because there's no statement, like, I wrote this in such and such a place. And it just cuts off. It's one of those books that he might have passed away or something.

[Speaker 2]
But generally speaking, seeing that the pre-colophon or whatever, seems to end with chapter two. Are we comfortable in saying in this footnote that this at least seems to point to... Are we going to just refer to this book in the footnote about the one that's on the first two chapters?

Or are we going to say it seems to us... I mean, all someone would have to do is read it. I just didn't.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, I would say it certainly is the book on the first two chapters. Yeah, it certainly is.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, and then...

[Speaker 1]
I'll tell you something interesting now from Stanley. Go back to the first line of the text.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I mean, of the whole book.

[Speaker 2]
Welcome to the first line of the whole... This whole book?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, you're right.

Okay, cancel that thought. Okay, cool. I thought it was translated from the Chinese, but it's not.

[Speaker 2]
And then in the footnote, do you want me to go ahead and include a mention of the fact that we seem to have a commentary to the third chapter?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I would mention that. Okay. And by the way, if it were me...

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I would confirm that the one that's called the third chapter is not just a continuation of this one into a separate volume.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, yeah. I mean, it is the very next... Let's see, Tohoku number.

I mean, it looks like it's the next work.

[Speaker 1]
No, but it's also the next volume. So it's kind of suspicious. It might be that the two are one book and that he's correct in not mentioning a third chapter book.

You see? But... They ran out of pages on the first volume.

They might have... This work might have been split into a second volume, which would also explain why there's no colophon at the end of the first volume.

[Speaker 2]
So it might be Japan's fault.

[Speaker 1]
Uh, meaning...

[Speaker 2]
Tohoku.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I mean, it's a little strange because doesn't Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk mention that it's only the first two chapters?

[Speaker 2]
He does.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Here's the next... I mean, herein, we don't have a Sanskrit title.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, no, I'd go to the colophon there and see who's the author. Oh, this was completed by his student, Ravi Gupta's student.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, wow.

[Speaker 1]
His teacher did die or something. And then the student completed the third chapter and I guess nobody finished the fourth chapter.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. And so it still gets credited to him even though his student...

[Speaker 1]
No, it shouldn't. It shouldn't have been credited to Ravi Gupta. This is by his student, whose name is...

Nima Bep... Sorry. Lopun...

No, I'm sorry. It is Ravi Gupta. And he says he's a student of Prajnakara Gupta.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Prajnakara Gupta. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
So he identifies himself by saying he's the student of Prajnakara Gupta.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
But he is calling this at the end, right? A commentary to the third chapter.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and he doesn't call it the first three. So this is a separate work, yeah. Okay, cool.

[Speaker 2]
All right, so we'll mention it that way. Cool. All right, awesome.

Thanks, boss. That's great.

[Speaker 1]
I like this kind of stuff personally. I mean, nobody else does, but maybe you're getting the bug. I, it's a little bit, yeah.

Yeah, I like this stuff. She's been killing me on... I found those obscure references you asked for in the Golden Key, but I didn't send it.

Okay. Okay, here's a famous joke on parsing problems that you, I cannot not teach you.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay. Uh-oh.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. You, if you've heard this story before, don't tell the punchline. So in Tibet, there's a famous joke on parsing problems.

Gathering salt was a big business because it was free. You just went to a salt lake and collected the salt and then brought it back to Lhasa and sold it in India, for example. So it was very common for somebody to take four or five yaks and say goodbye to his wife and walk out of his house and walk a week or two to the salt flats.

And this guy was gone a long time getting the salt and he was afraid that his wife would be worried. And so he sent back this message and he was illiterate, but he had some, he read it, he said it to somebody else and they wrote it out, okay? So he took five yaks with him and he wrote the message, YAK NA RKA' ZHIG NGAN NA TZAM MED Okay?

Yeah, I mean, this is the... Anyway, the parsing comes between NA and TZA. He wrote back to his wife saying, YAK NA RKA' ZHIG The yak with the white tail died.

NGA MA And I'm fine, I'm feeling good. NGAN NA TZAM MED Okay? NGAN NA TZAM MED So if you gloss the NA and TZA together, I'm not, I don't have any sickness.

NGAN NA TZAM MED Good news, you know? Then when the note got to his wife and her illiterate friend read it to her, she said, YAK NA RKA' ZHIG NGAN NA TZAM MED Which means what? All five yaks died and I didn't get any salt.

NGAN NA TZAM MED Instead of NGA NA TZAM MED Okay? She sold the house to get emergency money. She bought five more yaks.

She was getting them all ready to go out to the salt flats and he came back loaded with salt and four yaks. Understand? So a monk, a Tibetan monk would be roaring with laughter at this.

They misparsed the note, okay? Instead of NGAN NA TZAM MED I have no sickness It became NGAN NA TZAM MED I'm sick and I don't have any salt. Okay?

Yay! So the MED turned to MED No, and the moral of the story is parsing is very important in these languages. In Sanskrit and Tibetan, parsing is very, very important.

Tibetan has dots between every single syllable. So lots of possibilities, right? No spaces, just dots.

[Speaker 2]
Sanskrit doesn't even give us that.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the Sanskrit has no spaces. So, okay. All right.

Here we go. Please read. You finished this?

[Speaker 2]
Yes, sir.

[Speaker 1]
You did. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, we're chatting.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, you finished that one. You finished that one. Okay.

By the way, these are the Library of Congress entries.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
These are books that were bought with the grain money that India owed to Kennedy. And they bought about 8,000 books. And the bibliography work was pretty good.

And I purchased the data from the Library of Congress and I massaged it into our system. So it can be useful. Wow.

The root text takes 49 pages. 46 folios or 91 folio sites. And the auto-commentary is 600 pages.

So it's pretty major. Yay. Wow.

By the way, we've imported all these works. We just haven't split them up and cataloged them yet. Okay.

Okay. What follows is a long list of Tibetan commentaries on the logic.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
And we study almost all of these. We study most of these in the monasteries. So they're all different.

They all have their strengths. They're all very interesting to compare. And when you debate with other colleges, you have to study their textbooks.

So in the field of logic, all the Geshe candidates from all the grade three monasteries, the sixth grade colleges, they study most of these books. And they're very, very beautiful. And if you live long enough, you can translate all these too.

Okay, here we go. Oh, I'm just checking. Wordsmith, are you there?

Yeah. Okay, let's check this guy.

[Speaker 2]
SEMS KUN TU GYIS NAM ZHES BYAS Nice.

[Speaker 1]
This is not very difficult to translate, okay? Jetsam Kapha composed, SEMS DE'I BDUN LA BCUG PA'I DGOS What's that mean?

[Speaker 2]
Entering the seven books through, the door to enter the seven books on accurate perception.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, a door for entering the seven great books of Dharmakirti, right? On accurate perception. Okay.

Maybe it's an alternate name is DUN YER YI GYI MUN TSAR Okay, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, just spelling the darkness from the mind. DUN YER?

[Speaker 1]
DUN YER means those who aspire to understand logic. DUN YER means those who aspire, yeah. Those who hope to learn about logic, okay?

Then there's a lot of SEMS YI LAM PHYS Okay, oh. I wonder if there's not a karma here, okay? Meaning, I don't know who wrote SEMS YI LAM PHYS.

I suspect it's either a general name or it's an actual book by Tsongkhapa, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Uh-oh, okay. Is this tree like a throne, long tree?

[Speaker 1]
No, with a D it means a teaching.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay. So teaching the path of accurate perception?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, a teaching on the path of accurate perception, yeah. I think it's a separate book, but it could be just describing Yaltsabje's books to come. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
The tong, oh right, so we don't know the tong, yeah, we just don't know yet.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I feel like there's a karma here.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
By the way, if you get that Tsongkhapa King of the Dharma book, me and Eva, what's her name?

[Speaker 2]
Natanya?

[Speaker 1]
Natanya. Natanya, yeah. We included a catalog of every book he ever wrote in that book.

And we did it by subject. So you can go see all his logic books listed in one place. Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Please go try and look right now.

[Speaker 1]
And then you'll get an answer to this question, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
That'd be great, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, now we're going to cover Yaltsabje Khyenpa.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, and yeah, the omniscient Yaltsabje.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, whose personal name was?

[Speaker 2]
Dharma Rinchen.

[Speaker 1]
Where the Dharma doesn't mean?

[Speaker 2]
It doesn't mean the teaching.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it has nothing to do with the Sanskrit word Dharma. It's just part of his personal name. So many people make this mistake.

He wrote TSE MA RNAM BDE'O KYI RNAM SHES.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, a commentary on the commentary on accurate perception.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, called TAR LAM GSAL BYED.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, light on the path to freedom.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and in the monastery, if somebody asks you what you're studying, and you say, I'm studying TAR LAM GSAL BYED, they'll say, which one?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Because the Gendun Dru, the first big teacher, he wrote a book called TAR LAM GSAL BYED to explain the Abhidharma. Yep, okay.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Light on the path to freedom. And Yaltsabje also wrote TSE MA RNAM BDE'O KYI THIG CHEN.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, the great commentary on ascertaining accurate perception.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and by the way, THIG is only abbreviated into THIG when you need to, when you need a one syllable instead of two syllables, okay? So THIG CHEN sounds nice. And THIG RGA CHEN is not ever used.

Okay, so got it. TSE MA RIGS THIG KYI RNAM SHES.

[Speaker 2]
RNAM SHES, a commentary on drops of reasoning?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, a drop of accurate perception or something like that.

[Speaker 2]
Accurate perception, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And then TSE MA KUN GDUG KYI RNAM SHES.

[Speaker 2]
And then a commentary on the compendium by Master Karmapaga.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, Pramana Samuchaya. Okay, so what did Khenopje write? Well...

Hey, Haggerty, you want to criticize him? It's fun.

[Speaker 2]
Go ahead. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I'm not finding that book at all.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-oh.

[Speaker 1]
Uh-oh. They made laundry.

[Speaker 2]
So what do you think?

[Speaker 1]
It may just refer to Gyaltsabje's books, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
So to his books in general, can we talk about that a second?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I want to check it myself, okay? So sometimes books have nicknames, okay? So let me check it, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay, for sure.

[Speaker 1]
All right, how about Khenopje? What did he write about, Maji?

[Speaker 2]
Well, Khenopje wrote a book called TSE MA KUN GDUG KYI RNAM SHES. DGOS KYI THIG CHEN RIGS PA'I RGYA MTSO THANG TSE MA'I DE'I DUN GYEN YIGYI MUN TZEL SNGON GSUM LAS YUG THIG Yeah, THIGA, maybe, CHE THANG? Do we want it to be THIGA now, or THIGA?

Yeah, maybe LAS YUG THIGA because we don't need a second syllable.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, SNGON GSUM LAS YUG THIGA. It could be THIGA. It probably is THIGA if there's two Ks actually.

Okay, so what's MA WA'I NYI MA? Khenpo-chen, we know, but what's MA WA'I NYI MA?

[Speaker 2]
The propounder of the sun? I mean, the speaker of the sun? Take MA WA as teacher here.

Oh, the, I mean, yeah, the, oh, the son of the teacher?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that bright sun among all teachers in Tibet.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, that bright sun, okay, that's nice.

[Speaker 1]
That bright sun among all teachers, in like some, sorry, I have a cold, or something. Zepei Semenamdokyi Chikchen, he wrote the great commentary on Semenamdokyi called Rigpa Gyatso.

[Speaker 2]
Called, okay, called an ocean of reasoning.

[Speaker 1]
Good, by the way, I think Tsongkhapa's commentary to wisdom is also called Rigpa Gyatso, so be careful.

[Speaker 2]
I think so, but yeah, but that's cool, right? Like also maybe he's drawing a connection there.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, good. TSE MA DE NUN GYIN, the ornament to the what?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, to the seven books on accurate perception, which we know, Dharmakirti.

[Speaker 1]
Called, yeah, and notice they are all swiping what?

[Speaker 2]
They're all, oh, swiping names from Je Tsongkhapa's books.

[Speaker 1]
And earlier from, Chapa called his books Yigin, Muntsum, and Fei.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah, okay.

[Speaker 1]
And so it's kind of interesting that Tsongkhapa would use the name, and then Idubje would use the name, okay. And then he wrote a commentary to Muntsum.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, the commentary to the chapter on direct perception?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and I warn you that people will avoid mentioning first, second, third chapter, because there's a debate about which chapter's first. Okay, so they'll say, oh, the chapter on direct perception, and they won't say chapter one or chapter two or something like that, okay? All right, here we go, there's one more.

By the way, he's doing a review of the important works on logic in Tibet, and they are, and these are the classics. And I would say it's an excellent list. I agree with his list.

[Speaker 2]
I mean, you know, right, Regal sent some notes to the effect that there's some popular opinion that Dignaga wrote the book in a certain order, but that because Dharmakirti commented out of order, that some people reordered it to follow the root text by Dignaga, and that maybe this caused some of the confusion.

[Speaker 1]
That may be it, yeah. I never heard of that, but it makes sense. It makes sense, okay.

Geshe-la.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Tsemei Lamtri is a nickname for Gelsup J's book.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay. It's so weird that it comes before his name, though, right?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it does, it is weird, but okay. Are you sure a word?

[Speaker 3]
It's in the Namtar, the biographies. Yeah, I mean, I found it in the database. You can double-check, but yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Iqbal said Tsemei Lamtri, Selje, according to the great scholar. Words.

Okay, okay, okay.

[Speaker 2]
I'm like suddenly now comfortable, right?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's more comfortable, yeah. Especially because Iqbal didn't find any such word. Even though Iqbal didn't find any such word.

[Speaker 2]
By an author, then the name of the author, then two more books by the author?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's pretty weird. But if it were me, I would read it, which is why I hesitated in the beginning. I believe all his books, I would translate it as Gelsup J wrote books explaining Tsemei, including the following.

You know?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
See what I mean?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
I think it's just all his Lamtri's on Tsemei.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, right, okay.

[Speaker 1]
That's why it comes before the name.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, okay, that's it.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, Gyalchok.

[Speaker 2]
For now, yeah. Gyalchok Kuteng Tongbo, J. Gendun Druk-Gyi, J.

P. Tsemei Lamtri-Gyi, Laiyue Shi-Dun-Tang, Tsemei Rik-Pei Kien.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. Gyalchok is normally a word referring to the Dalai Lamas. Okay, the victorious victor, the great victors.

Kuteng Tongbo means what?

[Speaker 2]
The first, like holy body, holy birth of that.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the first of the lineage, Lord Gendun Druk. And he wrote a brief commentary to Laiyue Shi.

[Speaker 2]
To the fourth chapter of the...

[Speaker 1]
No, Majjhipa, he...

[Speaker 2]
Oh, to all three?

[Speaker 1]
To all four.

[Speaker 2]
To all four, rather? Sorry, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. And by the way, it's pretty common not to finish all four. So, you know, in Geshe-Geshe Wongchuk, we edited and published the first two chapters before he finished the third and fourth one.

So, yeah, but he got all four. It's a very nice, short text on all four, which is almost impossible.

[Speaker 2]
Well, even Dharmakirti only managed the auto-commentary to the first three, it seems.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's true. And then Semenuk begin.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, ornament on the reasoning of accurate perception.

[Speaker 1]
Good, yeah, okay. Keep going. Ward, can you check him?

[Speaker 2]
Sure. Yeah. Jamyang Tsangpa Dungyee-Gee Drak Drey, oh, Drey, okay.

Ganden Chitok Gye Pa Jey Munlam Pelway Jey Pei Tsemanondrelgyi Tikka.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, this is interesting. I had to look it up because I wasn't familiar with this expression. Tsangpa Dungyee-Gee.

I'm gonna, here's the definition of it. Why don't you read that? And then you'll understand it better.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, Tsangpa Dungyee-Gee. Tsongkhapa Shek Jey Ganden Tripa Jey Munlam Pelway Ken Tsangpa Kona Yimbe Gyaltsab Jey Tangkejab Jey Shalupa Lekpa Gyaltsen Lodru Chukyong Vasochiki Gyaltsen And Lodru Temba and then Munlam Pelway. Pelway, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so apparently Tsangpa is the state name, right? North of, the state is called Tsangpa. Lhasa is in a province called U, central province.

And Tsangpa is the province to the north of U, which is where Lhasa is, okay? Dungyee means the lineage of seven masters. Okay.

That's the lineage of seven masters from Tsang. Cool. From the state of Tsang.

And if you read the definition, Tsongkhapa Shek. What does Shek mean? He went.

Yeah, he passed on, okay? And after that, there were Ganden Tripas.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, throne holders of the Ganden.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. People who performed that function, Chekhyen, of throne holder, they were all Tsangpas.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, they had all been from Tsangpa.

[Speaker 1]
The first seven. And then he'd list them. The first is Gyaltsabje.

The second is Kedugje. Usually it's Shaluwa.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, Shaluwa, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Lekpa Gyaltsen and then Lodru Chukyong. Basoje is a great, great author. Lodru Demba.

And then Munlabbel or Munlabbelwa, you can say it either way. So these are the seven guys, okay? Wow, neat.

All right, so I think our author wants to include Tsongkhapa at the beginning.

[Speaker 2]
Oh?

[Speaker 1]
Because he says Jamyang. Oh. He says the lineage of seven masters of Tsang, of Manjushri.

And I think that's Tsongkhapa, okay? J is an idiom. Do you guys know?

Sorry. No. It means member of a lineage.

Oh, okay. Okay. Okay, Gandhen Chitok means holder of the Gandhentrum.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, number eight.

[Speaker 2]
Oh. Number eight.

[Speaker 1]
That doesn't make sense, does it?

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
Was he in that list?

[Speaker 2]
Well, if you include Je Tsongkhapa.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you're right. You're right, okay. So that supports my opinion that Jamyang here represents Tsongkhapa, okay?

Which makes Mun Lamphel number eight instead of number seven. In the lineage of seven. And he wrote a commentary to Tseman Lamphel, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay, so this is the eighth guy in the lineage of the seven.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, exactly. Yay, that's gonna be fun.

[Speaker 2]
Oh my God, I'm gonna be making so many momos in the break again.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and here's my... Here's the text I would quote to prove that Jamyang refers to Tsongkhapa himself. Because it says Jambun Lama.

He's referring to Tsongkhapa. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Keep going. Okay, Sarah Jetson, Juky Gyeltsen, Gyi Tsepe, Nandrel Liu, Thangpo Tatjagam, Je Tok Dangpo, Thangpo Jetak Nenpa, Liu Shipa Tatjagam Nyan Cha Circle.

[Speaker 1]
Good. I don't recall seeing Citta Monastery with a wasser. RGJU Wangchuk is a very careful guy.

That would almost be- That would almost support reading it as the fence or the enclosure of the monasteries. I don't know. Because Sarah, anyway.

Okay, Jetson Chukwigyantsen, the famous textbook writer from?

[Speaker 2]
Sarah J.

[Speaker 1]
Who was the teacher of?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, Jamyang Shepa? Kedrup Demdage. Oh, Kedrup Demdage, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Who is our great textbook writer.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
And the tradition, according to Sarah May is?

[Speaker 2]
That the student surpassed the teacher.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and that's the book that Tim's going to translate.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, but the Sarah J. writer, he wrote a tacha, which means what?

[Speaker 2]
An analysis.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, dialectic analysis, to the first chapter only.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
And he wrote a dretog part one, and he wrote a dretog part two, okay? I'm going to treat that later, okay?

[Speaker 2]
You're going to treat dretog later?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, in this class.

[Speaker 2]
Good.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Then he wrote a tacha to the Leo Shepa.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, he wrote a dialectical analysis of the fourth chapter.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and I want to introduce you to a word called circle. Say circle.

[Speaker 2]
Circle.

[Speaker 1]
Everybody say circle. Leah Krieger, circle, yay, circle. Circle means you take a major monastic textbook and you extract a certain topic, and you write a separate book on that.

Okay. The famous, and we were the first people to say the circles of Sereme. And so, kul means to extract the essence from an herb, and sur means to set it aside separately.

So it's like this separated, set aside essence, okay? Hang on, I'm not going to make you listen to me.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, God.

[Speaker 1]
,RTEN CING BDEL BYUNG LUG TUN LA, LUG MI BTUN LA RTOG PAR BYED ,DE NAS SREN GYIS NANG RGYUN PA'I SDUG BSNGAL NAM YONG ZHUGS MED, ,RTEN CING BDEL BYUNG LUG TUN LA, LUG MI BTUN LA RTOG PAR BYED First you should practice the lion's dance, and then you should study dependent origination. You should meditate on dependent origination. Okay?

Those two lines, the second two lines are the only mention of dependent origination in Maitreya's great Abhisama Ankara, right? And then somebody from Sereme took those two lines and wrote a circle, and that book's a couple hundred pages. Okay, so that's what a circle is.

Got it? What does NYAN ZHA mean?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I don't know, to equalize something to think about?

[Speaker 1]
It's kind of the definition of sound. The object to be listened to? Yeah, the object of hearing.

Okay, and we'll talk about it in a moment, okay? Let's finish off these RTOGS, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And I didn't know the word, and I went and studied it for you, and here it is. The Great Dictionary has a nice definition. Please read it.

[Speaker 2]
RTOGS TSE MA'I BRAS BU DE RANG YOD YANG DAG PAR RTOGS PA'O Yeah, now you can translate it. Let's see. So, what is this, to realize?

I don't know correctly the...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's object, it's own object, okay? No. A realization which perceives its own object correctly.

It's called a RTOGS.

[Speaker 2]
A realization which perceives its own object correctly, okay? And that's a TSE MA'I BRAS BU, right?

[Speaker 1]
As a result of a correct perception, as a result of an accurate perception, is called a resulting realization.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, wow, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, and there's three of them, okay? There's three famous RTOGS. So, this author, Sarah Judson, he only wrote commentaries on the first two.

There are three famous topics called the realizations you get as a result of correct perception. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay, and what are those topics come from?

[Speaker 1]
They are called RTOGS DANG PO, RTOGS NYID PA, and RTOGS PA. Okay, they are called number one, number two, and number three. Okay.

Now, here's the very useful definitions of all three from the Great Dictionary. So, we might as well footnote it, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
So, please read, and who's going to check you? Tim.

[Speaker 2]
RTOGS DANG PO, RTOGS GZUN GYIS YAG YAL GZHAN ZHIG GIS TSEN DRES DE SHUNG NAM GYI SHEPA NAM GYI RANG YUL THOK PAI CHA SUNG JA YUL SHEL JA ZIN JE GYI LO YUL DE NAM PAR SHAR NE YUL DE LA SAR DU MI LU WE SHEPA TSE MA RANG YUL NGU SU THOK PA DRE PUR JOK PA DE DO SEM THUNG MONG BA'I TSE ZHEN DRES GYIS NAM ZHAG DGOS Nice.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Tim was waiting for something, but he was disappointed. RTOGS DANG PO, the first realization resulting from accurate perception is defined as follows.

RTOGS GZUN GYIS YAG YAL Okay. Yag Yal is the same as Nangse that we just had.

[Speaker 2]
Nangse.

[Speaker 1]
Member of a group, member of a group.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay, it's one of the three DRE TOGS.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, nice, nice, nice. And this is the TSEN DRES, this is the result of an accurate perception which we like to generate as opposed to RANG RIG.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, perceiving other minds?

[Speaker 1]
No, what's RANG RIG?

[Speaker 2]
RANG RIG is perceiving your own mind.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, apperception, the perception of the mind by itself. So everything, sorry, everything that's not apperception is called SHEN RIG.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, so perceiving everything that's not the mind, this is just, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, perceiving other stuff rather than my own mind.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And by the way, RANG RIG is momentary, right? In the same moment, the mind perceives itself, okay? And if you look ahead to DRE TOGS NYID PA, here's the RANG RIG.

RANG RIG, uh-huh, yeah. Okay, so first of all, the first result, the first realization resulting from an accurate perception involves the perception of things other than your own mind, okay? Okay.

And it has different topics. One is GSOS RNAMS. That refers to the aspect of the object held rather than GSOS RNAMS. What's GSOS RNAMS?

[Speaker 2]
The aspect of the mind holding the object?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. And what's the famous line in the Vajrayogini prayer?

[Speaker 2]
GSOS RNAMS CAN, the vines of grasping and what is grasped?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. Yeah, CHI SHING, okay. So this means from the point of view of the object and not from the point of view of the perceiving mind, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
RNAMS KYI RANG YUL RTOG PA'I CHA, there is a part of the perception of the perceiving mind which involves the object that it holds, okay? So if you're looking at blue, then there's a part of the mind which involves the blue, perceiving of the blue, okay? Especially in the mind-only school, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Then there's the GSUM BYAS YUL, the object you're holding, which is your shell jar.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, your consideration of it?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the object that you're considering or the object that you're thinking about.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, all right.

[Speaker 1]
Then there's the DZIN BYAS KYI LO.

[Speaker 2]
The mind doing the holding?

[Speaker 1]
Good, nice, excellent. I'm sorry. YUL DE RNAM PAR SHAR NE, once the object has made its appearance, you get a SAR DU MI LUI RIG PA towards that object.

[Speaker 2]
Great, a fresh unerring state of mind.

[Speaker 1]
Good. And the result of all these guys is RANG YUL NUS SU RTOG PA.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, the result is realizing the actual object of that perception.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. SBYOG PA STE. And this- SBYOG PA STE.

The position- Sorry, SBYOG PA STE. Sorry, we're getting there.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, sorry.

[Speaker 1]
The position that the first JDOG involves these topics is to MONG BA TO DOG SEM.

[Speaker 2]
This presentation is shared with the Mind-Only School.

[Speaker 1]
Sutras.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I'm sorry, with DOG DEB PA and SEM TSANG PA.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you wanted to know SBYOG PA established as being the result of the perception.

[Speaker 2]
Fascinating, okay.

[Speaker 1]
And by the way, I think it means that the RANG YUL NUS SU RTOG PA is the DEBU.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, the, yeah, the, right, the realization of the object that you're looking at is the result of looking at the object.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you get an object aspect.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
You could get a part of it in the mind.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, so there's an object, there's an appearance of it in the mind, and there's the mind that's holding that object or maybe that appearance. And these come together and there's a resulting realization of the thing that you're supposed to be looking at. And this presentation here is called The First Resulting Realization.

[Speaker 1]
Nice, good.

[Speaker 2]
Or something, okay.

[Speaker 1]
So now- Over time, just so you know.

[Speaker 2]
Wow.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Hubba hubba. This is cool.

[Speaker 1]
It is cool.

[Speaker 2]
So we covered- And something about a name for a topic or a book. What did we say? Oh, DRE DOG DANG PO.

[Speaker 1]
Well, he wrote a book called DRE DOG DANG PO and he wrote a book called DRE DOG YIN MA.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Or maybe he wrote one book at all. Okay. And let me show you something.

Hang on. Don't stop yet. I'm not going anywhere.

Yeah. Sorry. Way down here.

[Speaker 2]
Wow.

[Speaker 1]
I got you the book, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
All right.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. What does that mean?

[Speaker 1]
It means that we'll be able to tell whether DRE DOG DANG PO and YIN MA are two books or one book.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, good.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, way down here.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-oh.

[Speaker 1]
All right. Way down here. Okay?

All right.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
All right. And by the way, if you're listening in on this incredibly difficult classes, don't get discouraged, don't get depressed. When this guy starts getting into the actual ancient book, you're going to be sorry you didn't enjoy these lists of books because these you can understand.

When this guy gets in to really doing his thing, you're going to wish you were back here in this list.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. All right. And then we're still going to come back and we're going to treat, when we get back together, we're going to treat the other DRE DOGS and...

[Speaker 1]
We're going to treat the second one and the third one. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
And also there was a... Nyam, what was it about listening?

[Speaker 1]
Something about... Oh yeah, there's a circle.

[Speaker 2]
Nyamvin?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. And I got that for you.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. So we'll do that next time also. Yeah.

Do not fear. All right. Thank you.

And... Okay. Do you have an assignment for me?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Why don't you try the definition of DRE DOGS YIPA here?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Fun. Okay.

I was going to...

[Speaker 1]
And if it's too easy, add the third one.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Not much threat of that, but if I suddenly find it's so lost that I'm just have to go on to the third one, then that's what I'll do.

[Speaker 1]
They're not very hard now. Yeah. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you. Cool.

[Speaker 1]
All right. You're welcome. Nice to see you guys.

Hang in there. If you're listening, you know, the way you learn something is, it's uncomfortable. When you're learning new stuff, it's uncomfortable.

If you were comfortable, you wouldn't be learning anything. Okay. So it'll all be clear later.

[Speaker 2]
Sashi, for a nice day's work, boss. Thank you so much.

[Speaker 1]
Sashi to you. I'm going to go eat dinner. Yay.

Enjoy. Bon appetit. Thank you for all the great classes today.

Okay. See you guys. Thanks, everybody.

See you in the morning. See you guys. See you guys tomorrow.

Thank you. I'll do a Q&A tomorrow at 8 a.m. Arizona time. So if you guys want to come.

Yay. Yay. All right.

Good night, you guys.

[Speaker 2]
Good night. Bye.

[Speaker 1]
Thanks. Thanks, everybody.