Бен Крамер — Книга 2: Драгоценность истинной мысли (Геше Йеше Вангчук о Дхармакирти), занятие 9

[Speaker 2]
But yeah, I can start. I don't think the boss is that excited about my homework.

[Speaker 1]
In fact- Is that his two-ferry breakfast? I'm as excited as Ezra looks.

[Speaker 2]
Wow, that is excited. Cool, all right, great.

[Speaker 1]
You never made that kind of food for me.

[Speaker 2]
No, and I didn't this time either, but I would take you someplace where someone else would make it.

[Speaker 1]
Well, it won't be around here.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Not yet, anyway. We visited the cafe today, Geshe-Li, it looks really nice. Oh, I haven't been there for a while.

Okay, here we go. I got this mixed nuts to take care of.

[Speaker 2]
Hey, Ben. Yes, boss.

[Speaker 1]
I'm just telling you what happens when your hair gets thinner at the top. You get a shine, you see?

[Speaker 2]
It's amazing, that's incredible. You really buffed that thing up tonight.

[Speaker 1]
Like John Brady has a better one.

[Speaker 2]
Do you have to wax that, or? Oh, that's disappointing. No, it's just natural.

[Speaker 1]
You gotta eat it.

[Speaker 2]
Pouring out of your head.

[Speaker 1]
You gotta drink a lot of flax milk, that's the only thing. Okay, get going. Stop talking.

[Speaker 2]
Sorry, great.

[Speaker 1]
Start talking.

[Speaker 2]
Would someone please give me the Sanskrit and Tibetan name of the Indian master who was the direct link in the lineage between the spiritual father and son of the teachings on accurate perception?

[Speaker 3]
Cricket?

[Speaker 1]
I agree there was a guy like that.

[Speaker 2]
Chopper? Chicky? Dengue?

Nah. Nah, okay. No, they never met, he's later.

Okay. It's a try. It's a great try.

That is definitely a guy that we talked about last time. What do you mean by the link? Well, let's try this.

Who are the spiritual father and son of the teachings on accurate perception? Dharma, Kirti, and Aryadeva?

[Speaker 1]
Master Dignaga.

[Speaker 2]
Not necessarily in that order? Who's daddy and who's the little boy? Dignaga's daddy.

Dignaga's daddy. And maybe we could say technically, now here's the question. Did they ever meet?

You mean, did they ever touch? Like a Nagarjuna touch? Or did they?

I don't know what a Nagarjuna touch is exactly, but. I think they didn't ever meet. Yeah, I bet.

[Speaker 1]
Wasn't Dharmakirti the guy who erased all his stuff in the cave?

[Speaker 2]
Is he?

[Speaker 1]
Dignaga's stuff.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah. So were they direct? Did they directly meet?

Were they direct spiritual father and son or not someone? No, I think there was someone between them. Yeah, I guess just because you asked the question, it means no.

Well, this is my way of asking the question which answers your question. Do you now know the answer to your question? The link means the guy who was a direct disciple of, who's the dad again?

Dignaga, Master Dignaga. And who was a direct teacher of, who's the son? Master Dharmakirti.

Yeah, who's that guy? A very cool guy. I know, right?

He's gotta really be something special. Yeah, he did a Ramana Bhartika. To the best of my knowledge, he did a commentary that was not, he did a commentary on the compendium that was not translated into Tibetan, alas.

According to Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk, he did write a commentary to the compendium and it was not translated. Bummer. Are we giving up?

Did we officially give up all 874 of us? I'm willing.

[Speaker 1]
Was it Chiwo something? Nope, nope.

[Speaker 2]
Don't sweat it. Here we go. Cool.

Okay. Remember, this was a tough one, so I really had to dig, oh, oh, actually here, I had to dig deep to come up with questions, but this is an important one. Give one example.

Wait a minute, Ben. Okay, go ahead. He was a direct disciple of Master Dignaga and Master Dharmakirti.

Oh, and a direct thank you so much. No, it doesn't. What are you talking about?

Oh, well, I missed him. Yeah, it's okay. It's all right.

What happens to the best of us, don't sweat it. We still love you. Sorry, thank you.

Give one example, okay, A, of a situation, two-part question, get it straight, a situation in which the mixed nuts system favors a varying approach to Sanskrit or Tibetan bibliography styles across multiple texts in a collection, and also an example of a situation where the style would need to be adapted even within a single text set of bibliography entries. That seems pretty important.

[Speaker 3]
I'm sorry, what?

[Speaker 2]
A situation in which you would need to adapt the styling of a bibliography entry. A, okay, one example. Okay, for a time, you would have to adopt it across multiple texts, and especially also an example of a case where even in a single text, in the bibliography entries of a single text, you would have to use varying styles in the bibliography of Tibetan or Sanskrit.

Okay, you may do that, but I'm gonna get rid of it, but go ahead. That's correct. There is no such example of either one.

It is a hallmark of the mixed nuts that our approach to all bibliography entries is consistent. Good. See, I knew you guys could do it.

Great. Well done. I think Bets was about to have a heart attack.

That's the only answer I could have given. Yeah. Give, oh, whoops, four elements.

Don't look at that. Here we go, it's four. Four elements, typically, as a plural, four is more than one.

Four elements used to distinguish the names of years in the Tibetan calendar, beginning with the number of the 60-year cycle. So that counts as one of your four, okay? So that I can ask you, oh, is it five?

Well, we're gonna get there.

[Speaker 1]
I think it's five. Animals, animal, element.

[Speaker 2]
12 animals and five elements. Well, okay, slow down. First, what's the Tibetan term for a 60-year cycle?

Ramana. Great.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I'm sorry. I just meant five different elements. I didn't mean five different.

[Speaker 2]
Great, yeah. I think there's four, yeah. And this is confusing the way I wrote this.

Four aspects, what should I say instead of elements? Because that's gonna be confusing. Factors, qualities, factors.

Qualities, factors. I'm gonna say qualities, factors. No, parts, hey.

Categories, maybe? Parts, I don't know, something. Let's say qualities, factors.

Great. What's the first one I gave you, the first one? Okay.

It's like the Rob Chung cycle. What, ordinal cycle. Great, okay.

What's the second aspect? I would say factor, but it would be the element, the elemental year. Cool, yeah.

Or an animal. Element, yeah, by the way, there are five, right, yeah. In the Tibetan order, okay?

Not the order that you would translate it to in English, perhaps. Because I think you could make that argument. What's the third?

The gender? The gender. No, the animal.

I think Hasso is right. Whoops. I think in the order that we find it written in, whoops, don't mind me.

Well, that's all right. It seems to be, yeah, male or female seems to be next. Which sounds funny because elements aren't usually gendered and animals usually are, but here we are.

And then finally, yeah. So there are five elements. And then the last one that I already accidentally showed you and alluded to just now.

Animals. There are 12. Totally.

And there are how many? I don't see. There are how many again?

12. Cool, great. Yeah, super.

But actually. Cool, actually? Actually, the whole thing's backwards.

It goes the other way.

[Speaker 1]
It's from the animals down.

[Speaker 2]
I think I could probably quickly dispute that. Well, the 60-year cycle didn't start until relatively recently. Right?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, in fact, do I have- A thousand years ago?

[Speaker 1]
Hey, Ben, I'm going to teach the whole thing shortly.

[Speaker 2]
All right, we're going to do it again. We did it, right? You're going to do it again?

Few more details. Okay, cool. All right, fine.

So we can go back there and decide if I'm, well, I can't get back to this anyway because you guys are all in my way. You can't see it, but you're in my way.

[Speaker 1]
Well, can I just say why I'm saying that?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Because the Tibetan and the Chinese calendars are based on the cycles of Jupiter, which take about 12 years. So each year is given an animal.

[Speaker 2]
And then from there, the rest was developed. So the argument I'm making here, right, is, right, look at 1091 here, right? Second cycle, that's the first element we get, right?

Element, chalk, right? Steel, that's the second, sorry, factor, right? The first factor is two, the 60-year cycle.

The second factor, chalk, right? Well, we didn't get a- No, no gender. We didn't get a gender here.

Well, you know, look, Geshe-la's going to come back and do it.

[Speaker 1]
It seems- There are no genders in that list there. Requires- That list assumes that the first one is male and the second one is female. It just assumes.

[Speaker 2]
It just assumes that.

[Speaker 1]
This doesn't list each. It just lists one name for the pair or something. Funny.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, cool.

[Speaker 1]
That's just how it's written out. No, every element, like water, there's two waters, right? 1092 to 1093.

There's two waters in a row. So the first one is the male water and the second is a female water.

[Speaker 2]
That's how- So when do you say the gender?

[Speaker 1]
Do you say it- You say it after the element. So you say chu-mo, chu-po.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Would you provisionally, and you're going to teach more on this, would you provisionally accept this order? I like it.

I actually like it. Okay, but we'll talk about it more. And words- Yeah, we'll talk about it more.

His hits in on it.

[Speaker 1]
By the way, word is correct, but we'll look at it more.

[Speaker 2]
Great. All right, cool. Then I don't understand why yet, but I know just who to teach me.

Oh, by the way, how would we find the corresponding Western calendar year? Yes, great. What did, for anyone who didn't understand- Great dictionary.

Yeah, the Great Dictionary. Awesome.

[Speaker 1]
The last appendix in the Great Dictionary has a calendar, which will give you the corresponding year.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, the appendix, or as I called it, the end, because I'm such a sophisticated gentleman. Yes. Cool.

[Speaker 1]
Are you a waiter?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Now, Ross, I owe you a bibliography entry, and you said that I could ask you a bibliography question. Here, I'm going to bring this down here so you can get a full look at this entry.

And then I want to ask you about it.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good. I'm open to questions.

[Speaker 2]
Great.

[Speaker 1]
But the first question is- Wait, do I get paid on the word scale, or I get paid on your scale, or which- None today, twice as much tomorrow. Oh, okay.

[Speaker 2]
So question number one, would you be kind enough to tell me if this, what elements I can repair in this bibliography entry?

[Speaker 1]
I'm assuming that the treatment of the end of Drel She and the beginning of Tibetan, is that usually a comma? I don't remember. I think, okay.

[Speaker 3]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
You just want me to admit I can't find anything wrong with it, which is very uncomfortable. It's on the wrong place on the page. Okay, cool.

That's cool. Okay, great.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's actually- Wait a minute. Where's its number? Well, this, it's not in a bibliography.

There is only one entry on this page, and so it doesn't need the number, and nothing refers to it. That's one. Doesn't matter.

Give it a number.

[Speaker 1]
I'm not doing it. I'll take it. I'll take it as is.

It's perfect, actually. But be careful. That's like learning to make momos, you know.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's already happened. I already made a bunch of bibliography.

[Speaker 1]
People are gonna ask, can you do it on- It's good.

[Speaker 2]
It's so good. Okay, great. Then my question, all right?

And I'm gonna shimmy this over here so I have all the things I need to really ask the heck out of this question. Here's where I got this reference from you just now. This is, he clarified for us this question about, oh, it doesn't matter.

Okay, here's what matters. Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk says, he talked about K'ache, right? And also Bhutan Rinpoche, right?

Talked about K'ache. So that's how it came up, right? Is that we were looking for- Akash Muni.

Right, yeah, here we go. Master Jnanasri from Kashmir clarified in his commentary that Lord Manjushri said he would stay until Dignagamas reached enlightenment, okay? So, and then over here in 19 on the left, right?

This seems to be Master Jnanasri Bhadra, okay? Which is right how we made the entry. We found this.

Now, here's where I'm struggling, okay? Down here at 25, right, no, it's 24. Here we go.

Master Jnanasri from Kashmir, right? Wrote the great commentary to the commentary on accurate perception. I can't find this book, but it seems like this book is this book, but then he mentions it again.

So I don't understand, but he already mentioned Jnanasri Bhadra's book, but now he's talking about Jnanasri from Kashmir, which is the name of, but Jnanasri from Kashmir when Bhutan referred to him ended up being the entry we have as Sri Jnana Bhadra.

[Speaker 1]
Is that a problem? I don't get it.

[Speaker 2]
He's first, he says up here, right? So this is 24. First, he says in 19, he's going over books.

He says, Master Sri Jnana Bhadra wrote a commentary to ascertaining accurate perception. He's going through texts.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
And then he mentioned some by, yeah, Prajna Karagupta. He mentions Vinita Deva and Dharmatara and then Kamalashila and Shantarakshita and Jnanendra Mantra, Jamari, Ravi Gupta, Shankarananda, and then he's coming back to the same book?

[Speaker 1]
He might've made an error. You should see how it's listed in the tenure. He's probably just exerting this from the tenure.

So you should look it up in the tenure.

[Speaker 2]
I cannot find another one and I can't find another book here.

[Speaker 1]
Then you could say you think that he might've repeated it by accident or something like that. Okay? Okay.

All right. But I'll check it also. I'll check it also.

[Speaker 2]
I'll do that. You'll eventually get a chance to check it.

[Speaker 1]
But make a big obvious note so I don't forget to check it.

[Speaker 2]
I will do that. One last bibliography question about quotation marks. So like, for example, okay, yeah, the commentary on, yeah, this is good.

The ornament of the commentary on, or better yet, oh, this is a good one. Okay, so the commentary to the ornament of the commentary on accurate perception, right? So how many, what are we doing?

Are we switching back and forth between quotation marks and single quotation marks? Like if our standard is, right?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you should. If it's a commentary on a commentary, there should be single quotation marks around the Dharmakirti's work. Yeah, that's true.

[Speaker 2]
Well, logically, wouldn't it be that? Because you have an entry for the ornament of the commentary. And I suppose you have an entry on the commentary on accurate perception.

This book is called the commentary to the ornament of the commentary on accurate perception. Do you see what I mean? So the quotation would be around ornament and perception.

But the entry for the ornament of the commentary on accurate perception would have the quotation marks around the commentary on accurate perception. Commentary to the- Because what this author is doing is commenting on the ornament of the commentary on accurate perception.

[Speaker 1]
I don't get what you're just saying. I would put single quotation marks around commentary on accurate perception. That's all.

We can do that, but by the way- And that means there'll be three quotation slashes, yeah, after it. That's okay. I mean, by the way, boss, Accurate Perception is a book.

[Speaker 2]
So it doesn't- No, it's not. Technically- The commentary- That's its own book, technically.

[Speaker 1]
No, it's not.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, Accurate Perception- Oh, I see, I see, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
No, that's okay. You can drop that one. Okay.

You don't have to put that one. Okay. That's like calling entering the middle way.

That's like putting a quotation marks around middle way and entering the middle way.

[Speaker 2]
Well, I'm not going to be the guy who tries to get around the standard because I think you're allowed to, but I'm not.

[Speaker 1]
No, no. I just mean, it's not necessary. It's too much.

Yeah. It's okay. Yeah.

What I mean is, in the tradition, it's more thought of a commentary on the topic of Accurate Perception than it's thought of as a commentary on Dignaga's presentation on Accurate Perception. See what I mean? Of course.

Yeah, right. It's not even in the form of a commentary. You see what I mean?

It doesn't explain word by word or verse by verse. You see what I mean?

[Speaker 2]
Okay, so listen, because this is going to happen to me and I'm not going to have you nearby, okay? God forbid, all right, someone goes and writes a commentary on S24. Am I going to switch a third time between big, you know, double quotes and single quotes?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. I would just keep switching between them. Yep.

Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
All right, cool.

[Speaker 1]
You're talking about what's called nesting, right? Nesting.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Don't worry about it. That's okay.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
I got out of that one. Awesome. It was so helpful.

Unfortunately, I have them saved up, but I still got another one for you for next time.

[Speaker 1]
Oh yeah, I don't mind. I mean, I've been waiting for you guys to do the bibliography, so I don't have to do them.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. It's helpful. Yeah, it's very gratifying.

I've been saving up.

[Speaker 1]
I'm glad. I'm really grateful that someone cares about doing it because that's something you can do that will save me time.

[Speaker 2]
I really like my job.

[Speaker 1]
I like my job too, but- I really like my job. I'd like to give the dirty parts of my job to you guys who like your jobs. Okay.

Is it my turn, Ben?

[Speaker 2]
Please.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, here we go. This is a touch more about the 60-year cycle thing.

[Speaker 2]
Cool.

[Speaker 1]
You asked me when did it start, who started it, and I found a reference for you. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
So read definition number two here.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, wait. Let me get the Venerable Chunzom Cursor going. Okay, here we go.

Sorry, here. Logan.

[Speaker 2]
Logan. Logan Druk Chu Khor Chi Khi Ming Te. Bukyi Rob Chung Thang Po.

Go Tsuk Tsa Mi Chi Lo, 1027. Yin Tao. Yi Chou Lo Tsam Wa Da Wai Er Ser Gyi.

Tse So Te Pa.

[Speaker 1]
That's enough. Yeah. The third one is the definition of someone who left the home life.

You see what I mean?

[Speaker 2]
Yes, I will.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. So by the way, Rob Chung can be a name for the fire rabbit year in any given cycle, unfortunately, but it's rare. So here we go.

I'm going to help you with one thing.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
And I wonder if my... I have two Chinese friends here, one handsome one, one beautiful one. They brought me some dinner.

So Lo Gen, what do you guess it means, Lo Gen?

[Speaker 2]
The old year.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, old year. And by the way, that's the spelling of Gen, which is used affectionately for your scripture teacher. Okay.

You can call them Gen. Hey, Gen.

[Speaker 3]
Gen, means teacher, teacher?

[Speaker 1]
Just your usual teacher, you call them elder, although I'm so young. Okay. So Lo Gen.

So Gen means older. Lo Gen, Ben, is a synonym for Rob Chung.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay. Yeah, so Lo Gen as opposed to the Chi Lo.

[Speaker 1]
Well, actually, a Lo Gen Druk Chu is a synonym for Rob Chung. Okay, of course. Yeah, it means 60 old years.

60 years old style. Okay. So if you see it in a text, it means Rob Chung.

It means a 60 year cycle. Kor Chik means one cycle around of 60 years, right? Ming means it's a name for a cycle of 60 years.

It's a name for one round of 60 years. Okay. And now he's going to tell you how it got started.

Well, it got the Phuket Rob Chung Dambo.

[Speaker 2]
The first Tibetan year.

[Speaker 1]
Of 60, yeah. Go Tsuk means started or founded. Okay, Go Tsuk means started or founded by somebody.

Okay. And Tsam means the border, right? So the point in time when this custom was started was Chilo 1027.

Foreign year 1027. Okay. Who started it was a Lodzawa by the name of Daway Ussers, moon being, who came from a place called Gijo, which is like a small area.

Okay. Like, I don't know, Encinitas or something. All right.

Okay. And Si means calculation. This spelling means calculation.

Su means custom, Luxu. Okay. Dup means to found or to initiate.

Okay. So this system of calendrical calculation was started by the master translator, Mr. Moonbeam, who came from Gijo. Okay.

Yeah, so you can look that for your footnote. Okay. And just if you're curious, there's a nice explanation here of a 60-old-year cycle.

Here's the definition of a 60-old-year cycle. And it's in poetry. It's four lines of poetry, as if it were meant to be memorized.

Okay. And I couldn't find it. So either the author of the dictionary made it up, or it comes from some other tradition like Nyingma or something like that.

I couldn't find it anywhere in our database. So please read the poetry. Don't forget generally to combine two syllables at a time and wrap up with an odd number of syllables.

Here we go.

[Speaker 2]
I'm sorry. Don't forget to combine two syllables?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, go like this. Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. I'm sorry.

Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. Okay, here we go.

[Speaker 2]
Gyanak lukla lochu ni. Xingmei sa chakchu nga ni.

[Speaker 1]
Now, doesn't it sound like one of those eight-year-olds in the monastery?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Okay, go. Wanta kangrel ko dangmur.

Jar wey lo gyen dru chu chung.

[Speaker 1]
No, okay. What's gyanak?

[Speaker 2]
Gyanak, oh, it's- China. China.

[Speaker 1]
So what he's saying is the Tibetans took this system from China.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, right.

[Speaker 1]
So I wonder if you guys had it, I don't know. Luke means in the Chinese system. It's a Chinese, the system started in China and then spread to Tibet.

And it's, you take 12 different years, okay, as word said, based on Jupiter, I guess, which is also the custom in India with Burha Spati, which is Jupiter. And then you take these five elements, which are?

[Speaker 2]
Wood, fire, water, steel, water.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, earth, steel, water. Yeah, these five. And then, this is interesting.

He says each one is dominated by either a po or a mo.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, right, by a male or a female, or a mom or a dad, Yeah, wangtang means dominated.

[Speaker 1]
By the way, they settled for calm that you were struggling with, like to call it peace or part, or they used the Abhidharma word for category.

[Speaker 3]
By the way, Geshe-la, this male or female could be the yin-yang thing.

[Speaker 1]
Stanley says the male-female thing could be yin-yang thing.

[Speaker 3]
Because yin is female, yang is male.

[Speaker 1]
Yang is male, yin is female.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, and that's in Chinese calendar.

[Speaker 1]
And that's part of the Chinese calendar. I'm his translator. So, when you connect 12 years with five elements, doubling the elements according to male and female, you come out with lo gen duk chu.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And this describes, rülpo means a single complete, a single complete. Rülpo means a single complete, okay? So, I have just described to you a single complete cycle of 60 years, okay?

Which in Tibetan is called rupture, okay? Cool. Okay, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
So, the order then, right? We were clarifying.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, well, the order is how they have it in the dictionary, actually.

[Speaker 2]
All right.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
There's a great Tibetan grammar book for beginners by a scholar named Lobsang Shalungpa. And it's in English. And I met him many, many years ago.

He died long ago. But it has a great presentation of the calendar system. If you can get a hold of it, it would be great.

It also has a great presentation of tampe, which are the, what do you call that? Sayings? Yeah, what's the other English word?

Idioms? No. Adages?

No, there's another idiom.

[Speaker 2]
Axioms? Aphorisms?

[Speaker 1]
Aphorism. A stitch in time says none. They have a weird name, I forget.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
What's the name of the book, boss?

[Speaker 1]
It's a Tibetan grammar by Lobsang Shalungpa. And it's way out of print, so good luck.

[Speaker 2]
Just about to post a link. Well done.

[Speaker 1]
And it's a great book to learn Tibetan if you're starting to learn Tibetan, like Tam or something. It's a great book. It's a very good book.

Yeah, I used it when I started. Okay, here we go. We're back to Chapachukesengi.

Please read. Please read up the commas, because this was typed in this way. Alison offered to check you.

[Speaker 2]
Rapyung sumbe sammo gleng lo te chi lo. Oh, thank you, thank you. Good, good, good, good.

1169, Lord Kushe. Am I, I'm sorry, am I reading across?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, Lord Kushe, I'm sorry, you're right, you're right. I'm sorry. By the way, here's the answer to your debate with word.

Cool. Okay, this is how a Tibetan author lists it. Element first, male or female, and then animal.

Okay, that's how a Tibetan writes it, yeah. Okay, in the third, what? Give me some more trouble.

Oh wait, are you paying me $1,000 if I get it right? What? I wasn't talking about how it's listed.

I was talking about how it was created. Okay, got it. You're right.

You're right, because of that China thing we just had. Okay, rapyung sumbe, in the third cycle of 60 years, okay, in the male earth bull year, okay, which corresponds, the te means, which corresponds to?

[Speaker 2]
Let me ask you, if it had been a female year, would you have said cow instead of bull?

[Speaker 1]
No, it doesn't matter, actually. It's independent of that. All right.

I just don't remember where, this can also mean elephant, so I was kind of hesitating. Chinlo, corresponding to 1169, hi ku shek. What do you guess that means?

Deigned to take birth. No, shek. Shek.

Went, left. Yeah, he traveled, he passed away. He passed away.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that's quite different.

[Speaker 1]
He had his birth long ago. Here's his birth, it was 1109, okay? And now he passed away, okay?

Who did he study with? Please read, and Stanley's gonna check your pronunciation from kong gi up to the next comma.

[Speaker 2]
Kong gi tu lung ja mar wa chang chup chak la sok pe ge we shen yin nam la ten e do ngak rik ne tang che par jang pa chi chin ba de de ke pa chin bor kyur.

[Speaker 1]
Good. He studied, kong gi means he. Studied with a person named Changchup Drak who hailed from the Gyatmar region of Tulum.

And oftentimes they'll put the place where they came from in front of their name, like Arizona Michael Rhodes or something. Drak la sok pe. Ge we shen yin.

He had lots of teachers, like Changchup Drak. He tamed those teachers.

[Speaker 2]
He relied upon them.

[Speaker 1]
And he mastered do. Sutra. And, well, open teachings and ngak.

[Speaker 2]
The secret word.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, whenever do comes before ngak, you change it from sutra to open teaching, right? Okay. Open teaching, secret teaching.

Sorry, that's the ice maker, Japanese. Rik ne here means the secular scientist. Okay, at least four of them.

Okay, so he studied the open teachings, the secret teachings, and the secular sciences, along with the secular sciences. Jangpa, he practiced. And then he brought his practice tar chenpa.

Chi chenpa and tar chenpa, same thing. He brought it to a successful conclusion. And by doing so, de means, this is called the conjunction of, conjunction of progression in time.

Okay, he studied, studied, studied, de, and then kyepa chenpo gyur.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, came to be a great master.

[Speaker 1]
A great master, like Amalie. Okay. Okay, keep going, and Nick wants to check you.

I can just see it from his eyes. Hey Nick, hey Nick, if they don't have, if they don't sell razor blades in California, just let me know. I can use it.

Okay, okay.

[Speaker 2]
No, Amalie, I didn't even try yet. De ne, sang ke ne, po ki, den sar pep shin lo, ngo chok ke gyurin gyurin. Chok ke.

Chok ke, thank you, Amalie. Rin du den sar kyang te.

[Speaker 1]
Good, yeah, we're putting all this money into our scholarship, finally. We want some corrections. Den sar pep means.

[Speaker 2]
Would you put that on one page?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I can do that, hang on.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you, I'm sorry, I don't want to make you do the whole thing, but it's right here.

[Speaker 1]
No, it's okay. Den sar means the, what do you call it? He reached the abbot, abbessy, okay?

Den sar pep, okay? He reached the abbessy of the monastery called Sangbu Nyutok, which is still there. It's just south of Hwasa, I looked it up.

And lo ngo means, lo ngo, when you put ngo on a year, it means a total period of how many years? So lo ngo means a total period of 18 years. He was the boss for 18 years.

He was the abbot. Den sar kyang means he, what do you call it? What did he do?

Served. Like directed, okay? He directed the monastery, okay?

What do you call it when an official carries out their duties? Execute. Yeah, he executed his duties.

That's pretty good. I have an English teacher here. Okay, keep going.

Oh, Nick wants to keep doing it, he told me.

[Speaker 2]
CHOS NYAN ZAS SKABS KHONG GYIS TSA NA PHRAD MA RIG PAS ZHUNG RNAMS DU TSEN DGOS NAS LOB CHUNG BYAS TSUL BRDZOD RA ZHES SOGS THOS PHYING Okay, cool.

[Speaker 1]
CHOS NYAN ZAS SKABS means during his years as a professor or a teacher, okay? So CHOS NYAN means education, right? During his years as an educator, he divided DGOS.

He divided the subject of pramana, the classics, into briefer sections, DU TSEN. And he sort of instituted a new way of studying them. And that was called?

[Speaker 3]
DGOS RA.

[Speaker 1]
DGOS RA, yay! Did you put the brackets there or was that? No, they did.

And I'm sorry to say, this is very common in languages around the world where they're trying to look cool. So they try to do some Englishy and they mess up their own language. I think they should stick to their own language, but anyway.

Yeah, he invented a thing called DGOS RA, all right? So TSUL LTOS means to institute a new custom. TSUL LTOS.

We had a TSUL like that this morning. I don't remember. Okay.

Okay, keep going. And who's checking? It's Tim.

Yay, Tim!

[Speaker 2]
TSE NI GYI LOB NYER BA NAM DZIN DRAG DGOS NAS TSUL LENG CHE DE RIG LAM GYU PAS LOB PHY SAR WA CHE TSE PAS TSE NI RIG PAS LOB NYER PEL GYE CHO BAR KHU CHA CHEN PO TEP PA SO?

[Speaker 1]
Tep So. Forget the pa, it's just the name of the volume.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, sure, of course.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, it's the volume number. And this is printed in, this page number indicates it's not a Tibetan-style book, it's a Western-style book. Okay, TSE NI GYI LOB NYER BA NAM Those who were studying logic, okay?

TSE NI, in the monastery, it means logic, right? It doesn't mean definition. Those people who were studying logic in, or I'm sorry.

Those people who were studying the philosophical scriptures, right, TSE NI, as opposed to Tantra. Okay, so sometimes TSE NI means the open teachings, okay? Or the technical teachings.

Sometimes TSE NI, in the monastery, refers to the philosophical classics, the five great books, okay? Sorry. Okay.

So those guys who were studying the classics, okay? He also grew them into DRA. He also split them up into small classes.

And he had them debate with each other. TSOS LENG means debate with each other, okay? And so in a way, he instituted a whole new system for studying Buddhism in a monastery, in an institution.

He split it into classes like a Western university. And then he got the classes to debate with each other every day. Yay.

So it's cool to have him in here, right? TSE PA'I. TSE NI RIG PAS BLO MNGAL PHAL GYI'I DRO.

And because of him, the study of the classes in the monasteries, PHAL, PHAL GYI', it blew up. Everyone started doing it. They started doing serious studies in the monasteries, okay?

Because of him. He was the guy who got things going. What's a KUL CHAGS?

Anybody want to guess? I mean, Stanley's cool, but... Like a whip or something?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. CHAGS means a whip that you use on a horse.

And KUL means to instigate. So it's like the spurs. He put the spurs to the whole logic system and he got everything going in high gear.

We would say in English, American English, he got everything going in high gear. TEP SO means started this system. All right?

This is from THAB, from CHAGS RGYAL THAB, to put a stamp on something. Okay? Okay.

So really he started the system of the Geshe courses, I would say. Okay, yay. Now you get the bad news about him.

We're gonna, hey, what do we call that, Ben? We're gonna hang out his dirty laundry.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, we're gonna dig up his shit nest.

[Speaker 1]
I want the Tibetan.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Sangju.

[Speaker 1]
Sangju. Yeah, Sangju. Okay.

Remember Datsang. Remember Datsang.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Please read. And Tim's still checking.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Geshe-la, can I ask a quick question first?

[Speaker 1]
Yes.

[Speaker 2]
I sent you a picture of a book that I think may be the one you're talking about. Could you please verify? It's over in the chat.

Second from the, or the last message there.

[Speaker 1]
I'm curious, what book are we talking about?

[Speaker 2]
The grammar book.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, wow, that'd be exciting. What do I do, double click on it? That's it, yeah, that's it.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, I'll get it. There's only one copy.

[Speaker 1]
It's a great, great book. And it would be worth inputting, for example.

[Speaker 2]
For example, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
That we could, I don't think anyone would care. Yeah, and by the way, George Roerig at the bottom is Yori Roerig, and he's the son of the great Nicholas Roerig, the painter, one of the most famous painters in Russia, who went to Tibet and painted. And his son translated the Blue Annals, first person ever.

And he spent his whole life in the Himalayas, the sun. He just ended up getting stuck there. His book collection is sitting in Moscow, waiting for John Brady to get permission.

Oh.

[Speaker 3]
We can take a rest there.

[Speaker 1]
No, uh-uh. No, he's, yeah. And it'll be difficult to get access, but somebody should try.

Okay. Here we go, the bad news. Okay.

Who's, wait a minute. Who's that? Word?

Oh, sorry. Venerable Utpala. Can you check him?

[Speaker 3]
Sure.

[Speaker 2]
Chidamawa Tongdodewa. Probably the Deva, right?

[Speaker 1]
It's a dumb car. It's a dumb car.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Chidamawa Tongdodewe Lugla Shelgi. Shelgi.

Low tone. Shelgi. Shelgi.

She-i. Oh, Shelgi She-ching. Keep going.

Lopung Dajaki Lugla Khenjo Mangdudze Khenchikyin.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. Translate.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So, he, I guess he taught a lot on the Vibhashika, on the detailists and the sutras and the logic school.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. By the way, Shelgi She-ching means he followed. He, what do you call that?

He belonged to that system. He accepted that system. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
And there were a lot of problems with the way he presented the system of Master Chandrakirti.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. When you join problem to Je, which means to express, it means he used to.

[Speaker 2]
Say. Chidamawa Tongdodewe Lugla Khenchikyin.

[Speaker 1]
No, he used to bad mouth Chandrakirti.

[Speaker 2]
The nerve.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Yeah, so now our respect for him just dropped a bit. I'll say it again.

He accepted the system of those stupid Abhidharma guys and the system of the sutras, the logicians, but he constantly criticized the system of Master Chandrakirti. Khenyin means, this khen doesn't mean master. Never respect khen.

Never confuse khen with khe, okay? Khen is a ER in English. Doctor, teacher, plumber, just the ER.

He was a committer of many bad talks about Master Chandrakirti, I guess. Uh-huh.

[Speaker 2]
How fascinating though, right?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it is.

[Speaker 2]
You teach the Dura, especially that you still teach the Dura from the perspective of Soutrantika, even though we don't accept Soutrantika, but the kids all have to learn Soutantrika for what, like 13 years or something?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's because it does present a good theoretical framework. Yeah. Yeah, that's all.

[Speaker 2]
What a great guy to create that framework in good faith to the system, you know? Like at least he doesn't like setting up straw men. He believed it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, he did. It's kind of funny. Keep going.

So gang, let's get to work.

[Speaker 2]
Gang.

[Speaker 1]
GANG NI SANG PO'I DEN RAB DRUG PA YIN Yeah, by the way, DEN RAB, with a number, means he was the sixth throne holder of Sangpo Monastery. Okay? So he held its throne for 18 years, right?

And that's still there. That monastery is still there near Lhasa. Okay?

Right. By the way, here it is, the monastery. Sangpo Monastery, Sangpo Monastery, Sangpo Monastery.

[Speaker 2]
Sangpo Sena.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you told me. Cool?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it is.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. That's a nice reference, the treasure of life. It's, I mean, by the way, this is your homework reflecting your homework question, right?

BRDUR Here they have Tibetan transcribed one way, then they change to another way. Then they have the Tibetan in pronunciation. They have the Sanskrit in diacritics.

It's all messed up, okay? And the name of the monastery is the General... They've messed up three systems in one sentence.

It's kind of an achievement, actually. Okay. Pet peeve, in case you noticed.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
You're still up, Sugeng.

[Speaker 2]
GONG GI LOB MA DRAG CHAD BA NI SENG CHEN GYI YOD TE Stop there and translate.

[Speaker 1]
The Seng is for Senge.

[Speaker 2]
I got lion. Shoot. Big lion, there's eight, big- Yeah, the eight great lions.

One of the eight great lions. Is he the greatest? Is he the most famous of the eight great lions?

[Speaker 1]
No, his- His most famous students. Yeah, his most famous students were the eight lions. Now, there are eight guys whose name all has lion in it.

Okay. So, you can read their names, just for good luck, okay? Tsang, Hasso's checking you.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Tsang Ngakpa- Hasso, just Hasso. Tsang Ngakpa- Tsang Ngakpa Tsundru Senge.

[Speaker 1]
There's one lion.

[Speaker 2]
Tsang Tempak Mawe Senge.

[Speaker 1]
There's two lions.

[Speaker 2]
Dusha Sunam Senge.

[Speaker 1]
There's three lions.

[Speaker 2]
Maja Tsupet Senge.

[Speaker 1]
The lion of the peacock argument, Seiji. Number five.

[Speaker 2]
Tsak Wangchuk Senge.

[Speaker 1]
Yep, number five.

[Speaker 2]
Nyen Dren Chik Senge.

[Speaker 1]
Good, six.

[Speaker 2]
Demak Ponchok Senge.

[Speaker 1]
Seven.

[Speaker 2]
Nyelpa Yonden Senge, Chai Thang Chos.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, pause there. Just for your information, okay? Not that it matters today.

But normally there's a four-syllable personal monk's name, and everything in front of that is usually the state or province or town that they came from. Like Tsang is a state north of Lhasa. Geshe Tutu Rinchen is from Tsang, for example.

Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Now, he not only had eight guys as grade students who had lion in their name, he also had four students that are called students of the Lord, sons of the Lord. Okay, princes, princes, okay?

So there's four that were called the four princes. Here we go.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, so you got kun jay se tse mo. Good. pang ngok se ram mo.

[Speaker 1]
Good.

[Speaker 2]
ku jay se ne tso.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, ne tso means, what are those birds that I repeat what you say?

[Speaker 2]
Parrot?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, a parrot, yeah, sorry. Nyo.

[Speaker 2]
Nyo jay se pel le chak. Nyo jay se pel le chak. Chay.

[Speaker 1]
Pel le, chay means the list is finished, okay? The four is finished. And again, it's the same pattern.

The first part of their name is to where they came from. Black Shenzhen, family, shaman, shopping. Okay.

And there were four who had a special what?

[Speaker 2]
Four of them had, I mean, they had a special wisdom.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, who's that?

[Speaker 2]
Well, I mean, for example, there was Ngar Wong Tru. Gar, Ngar. Gar Wong Tru.

Hong Po Jak Chung.

[Speaker 1]
Good. We should do, yeah, okay, Lhoa, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Lhoa Kok Sen. Yep. Yeah.

And Par Pua.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good, good. Those are the four smartest ones, okay? Okay, now they're gonna, by the way, these short biographies are just golden.

They're really, really good in this book, which is called, what's it called? Treasure of Names, Ming Tzu. Okay, very, very valuable biographies.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
We are over, oh yeah, we're over time. Two minutes over.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, okay, well, from here, which is a good place to break, they're gonna start his sung tzom, which means the important books that he wrote.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, do you wanna give me an assignment?

[Speaker 1]
Why don't you translate the important books section?

[Speaker 2]
Okay, is that what's gonna happen like now?

[Speaker 1]
Yep, from Kong up to Mengdu Shuk Tso.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, Kong up to Mengdu Shuk Tso.

[Speaker 1]
That's kind of too easy, though.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, well, give me some more of us.

[Speaker 1]
Let me see. I wanna give you a little bit more than that.

[Speaker 2]
Cool.

[Speaker 1]
And you can go all the way down to, I want you to go down to this paragraph that starts Den Leng Den. Do that one also.

[Speaker 2]
And is that, are we still, is that still Chapa, or did we just go?

[Speaker 1]
No, we're breaking back into Yeshe Wangchuk there.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, okay, cool.

[Speaker 1]
And in fact, at that point, Oh, of course. Yeshe Wangchuk starts listing the traditional Dura topics that Chapa Chukyi Senge instituted.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, sure enough. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Which is very fascinating.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, great. Colors and shapes, look, there it is. All right, that's gonna be a hoot.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay, I'll see you hooting.

[Speaker 2]
And you're gonna tell me, maybe you just went past it, right? But you found his Dura? Are we still getting to that, or we're gonna talk about it?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's the last two books mentioned here.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, all right, cool.

[Speaker 1]
And by the way, the name, the original, what I believe to be his original Dura is called Yiki Munse.

[Speaker 2]
Wow, is it big?

[Speaker 1]
Wait, you have to say, ooh, K.W.J. stole the name from Chapa Chukyi Senge.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, wait a minute. Adam stole the name from Chapa Chukyi Senge.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so Adam's new book, the name was stolen from Chapa Chukyi Senge's first Dura.

[Speaker 2]
Adam, Adam, Adam. Cool. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
We do- Oh, and by the way, those two books are in BDRC.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
But they are in Ume.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, no.

[Speaker 1]
We can input that. It'd be great. They do it, they've done it for us a bunch, it's just a little slower.

That would be wonderful.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It's in script.

[Speaker 2]
Are they big? Yeah. I can look, I don't have to ask.

[Speaker 1]
Well, here's the references right here. One is four pages, the root text is four pages.

[Speaker 2]
Wow, we're talking.

[Speaker 1]
And the commentary is five pages. By the way, I suspect these are just the outline, subje, see, subje. So maybe nobody ever found the actual book.

[Speaker 2]
That just got a lot less sexy all of a sudden.

[Speaker 1]
But cool. Yeah, I'm sorry about that.

[Speaker 2]
All right, we're still friends.

[Speaker 1]
But maybe if you dig around the website, you can find it.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
It may not still exist. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, thank you.

[Speaker 1]
All right.

[Speaker 2]
Sashy boss, that was awesome.

[Speaker 1]
We'll see you guys in, super sashy.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Okay, we're gonna try to lose some of our beer here when we talk to you later. Right.

Cool. Bye. See you guys in about five minutes.

Okay. Thanks. Catch you later.