Бен Крамер — Книга 2: Драгоценность истинной мысли (Геше Йеше Вангчук о Дхармакирти), занятие 6

[Speaker 2]
Is something about yogurt? Yeah, sashimi. Oh totally, I will, I sashi you.

I sashi every one of us.

[Speaker 1]
Great, I prefer yogurt though.

[Speaker 2]
This is a tricky homework folks. I did my best but we are just doing lists of books and lamas and scholars and translators. Anyway, we'll just do our best, no?

Yes. Name a translator from the first wave of the arrival of the teachings in Tibet and how many classical commentaries on accurate perception were translating during that time? Uh, 61 or 65 depending on how you do the math.

No. No. Okay.

During the first wave, our author mentions two waves of the arrival of the teachings, two waves of translation and the one that was mentioned in the first wave is a very, very, very famous one. Um, perhaps the most, perhaps the most famous, uh, um, no, in the history of Tibetan scholarship, uh, as a language, the most famous, uh, scholar in history of the Tibetan language, by far. Way more, more vital to, uh, to the, the scholarship of the Tibetan language than any other scholar.

More. No, you tried that already. This is such a good, uh, um, okay.

Nobody that's all right. What's another clue? I can't give you another clue.

Um, well, right. Um, yeah. Who, uh, why, why is that, uh, in Ben's opinion, uh, were the most, uh, important, um, scholar in the history of the Tibetan language?

Yeah. You're right. Why we're why I think that that's the most important scholar in the history of without him, there couldn't be scholarship because he invented the letters.

Right. Yeah. Cool.

That's my position. That's what I'm going to try to argue on the debate ground. Okay.

Uh, how many classical commentaries on accurate perception were translated during that time? Utkala tried 61. Keep that, uh, answer in your pocket for later.

[Speaker 1]
66.

[Speaker 2]
No. During the first wave. Oh, it's okay.

This is hard. Um, but, uh, none.

[Speaker 3]
Um, it wasn't 36,000.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, only, uh, at that time, only a few sutras were translated and no commentaries on accurate perception. Um, during that first wave, it was just a handful of sutras. He mentioned a couple sutras, uh, I kindly didn't ask you the name of the sutras, but, um, again, uh, you know, I, uh, this is what I had to work with.

Um, but now we'll remember how many, uh, how many Sanskrit, uh, works were translated. However, uh, during the time of, uh, oh, how many during the time of the Dharma King, uh, Trisong, uh, Detsen. Oh, this is not your moment, uh, Utkala.

Uh, how many, a lot. Okay. Uh, where, uh, he said something like, um, yeah.

Where were, where were those words translated? Let's try that. This was sort of interesting.

And, uh, our, our Lama, our teacher claimed it was news to him as well. Not Katche, right? No, not Katche, not Tuscaloosa.

Limited number of ancient places that we know. Throw some out. Malandra.

Maybe. Uh, right. India.

[Speaker 3]
India.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Uh, the, uh, hundreds of translators went to India to, to, uh, translate what sort of books? Open and secret teachings.

Many sutras and commentaries. Yay. That's exactly what I'm looking for.

Um, and what particularly important translators of that time does our author mention by name? You threw one out, Word. Okay.

Um, yeah.

[Speaker 3]
What year-ish? Give me. Oh, man.

[Speaker 2]
I don't know. Didn't come up. Wasn't mentioned.

Uh, recording. We'd have to look into that. Um, uh, no.

Uh, in the great three. Yay.

[Speaker 1]
Kawa Peltsek is one of the great three.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, well done. Okay. You got me there.

Kawa Peltsek. You're absolutely right. See, I don't remember these guys' names.

Um, yay. You win. Cool.

Okay. According to our author, how many classical commentaries on accurate perception were translated from Sanskrit into Tibetan? Yeah.

Yeah. I see you scratching your head. Oh, according to our author 61.

Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

Great. Um, boss, are you here? Boss is here.

Okay. Boss, we, we got to have a talk about my assignment. Uh, I think you're muted.

You're, you're muted.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, me and, me and, uh, Maitreya are muted. What's, what's the talk?

[Speaker 2]
Well, uh, I didn't do a great job. I, I, I earnestly tried and, um, I'll show you the results that I came up with, but it wasn't fantastic. Uh, I found less than I was hoping to find.

[Speaker 1]
Um, Oh, the, uh, the number of books, right?

[Speaker 2]
Uh, well the, uh, Oh no, the chapter, the chapters.

[Speaker 1]
Yay.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Well, don't get too yay. Um, so, uh, right.

This, uh, this teacher here, right in this book, and I forgot who the name of the author is here. Okay. Uh, the, in the front, uh, prominent of our tick, uh, uh, Tika.

Um, okay. So we have right. An initial reference, uh, to the first chapter, um, uh, being the chapter on, uh, just to pop off or on, on deduction for ourselves, uh, which he then, um, Oh, uh, I'm sorry.

I just got a pop up here. Oh, there we go. Which he then, um, uh, really reiterates, um, here, right.

Uh, uh, okay.

[Speaker 1]
And then, um, wait, wait, wait, uh, there's, there should be two J Bach chapters, right?

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Uh, he doesn't specify in that second citation. He doesn't specify if it's wrong or shins.

[Speaker 2]
Right. And Leo Niva, it just says, um, correct.

[Speaker 1]
Some, uh, that doesn't help at all.

[Speaker 2]
That was a lot of not helpful stuff.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I know. I, I, that's why I gave it to you. Cause I was tired of, right.

Of not getting results.

[Speaker 2]
Uh, yeah. Great. Here, um, here is, uh, uh, the, go back to that last one.

[Speaker 1]
Go back to that lesson. One more last one. Yeah.

Oh, that's crazy. Okay. Nevermind.

Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Here's the Vartika itself.

[Speaker 1]
Right.

[Speaker 2]
Though we don't know whether to attribute it to the editor or not, but it, uh, so, uh, for the first one, uh, establishing Tsema itself, uh, as the second one, um, by the way, that's a Domba Tsemerdupa. Oh, yeah. Right.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. I believe it's, uh, proving that the Buddha is, is, uh, uh, Tsemerdupa, right. It's not a proof.

It's not a proof of correct perception. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay. Establishing the one who is Tsema.

[Speaker 1]
Good.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Okay. And then, um, uh, doesn't say for who, uh, but then Shengidun, um, uh, Shengidun, uh, Shengidun, right.

Uh, which is also, um, Shengidun Jaypak.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Right. Uh, then, then we take that to mean Jaypak for ourselves because, uh, but it's not, again, wasn't, wasn't a hundred percent clear without reading them, which I'm sure we'll do over the next 50 some odd years.

[Speaker 1]
Um, uh, but, but I want to, yes, I want to say something about this for, uh, Rangden Jaypak. Oh, Mike, he agrees with me already. Uh, Rangden Jaypak means, you know, deductions to help ourselves, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
That we're trying to prove with logic. What's the classic thing we're trying to prove with logic?

[Speaker 2]
Um, the, uh, existence of, of being who, um, who cannot be wrong and thus who revealed a path, which we can follow to reach such a state ourselves.

[Speaker 1]
Yay. So I'm just giving you a theory, a theory. This is my theory.

Okay. Cool. First, we try to prove that the Buddha, first we try to, we want to prove Buddhism and Buddha.

So first we need to know how to prove something. So that's the first step. First chapter is how do you prove something?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And then the second chapter is how do you use that to prove the Buddha and Buddhism?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
And then if I, my new theory is that after the discussions of deduction for myself, which I would count the first two chapters here, almost as for myself, right? Uh, then I have to confirm the tsu sum.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. The, the three relationships.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. And somebody said that had to be done with direct perception, which is pretty cool. Yeah.

So that's my new theory of why they, that's my new theory of why they ordered the check. And then once you get everything straight for yourself, you teach other people. And that's, that's easily the fourth chapter.

Okay. That the only confusing thing for me was always that the study of direct perception would seem to be the place where you start and then you study deduction. Right.

But, but we had this section in somebody's text, I forget if it was yours or Adam's.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
That said that the three, the three relationships had to be confronted with direct perception.

[Speaker 2]
Right. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
But I'm not even sure about that. That sounds funny to me, but anyway. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Right. I, yeah. I mean, I like it at least from the perspective of this school as we understand it preliminarily, but I guess we've got a lot of stuff to learn ahead of us or else what the heck are we doing?

[Speaker 1]
I always got confused about the order of the chapter. I think in the debating ground we have, we were always confused about it.

[Speaker 2]
Here is someone saying, right. Oh, right. For, oh, here we go.

Right. Who's saying the second chapter is unfortunately not matching up with what we got before?

[Speaker 1]
Well, what this says is direct perception is something that both you and others have to confirm. Therefore, that topic, I'm not going to expand on in the second chapter.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
This doesn't, this doesn't mean bliss as it did in Seiji's text this morning. Gashintoa. What were the two Gashintoas?

[Speaker 3]
Without a doubt, I'll bring them all to enlightenment. Chakisachi. Oh, oh, the burning hot.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. With joy, with pleasure. So this is, yeah, this throw, I take it not to be joy.

I think it'd be true. I will not go into it here. Yeah.

I won't expand on it. Sorry.

[Speaker 2]
The last reference also isn't necessarily useful. We don't know just because that's the second chapter of the, the Tikka, that that should follow the chapters of the book that it's tiking.

[Speaker 1]
Well, it should, shouldn't it? I don't know.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, but I wouldn't call it a kyap per se. I'd have to know more.

[Speaker 1]
So that, by the way, the next quotation you have here, the next citation here confirms that there's disagreement about the order of the chapters.

[Speaker 2]
Well, but that's what I'm saying is that the next one just shows that the, what the second chapter of this Tikka is. It doesn't necessarily, you know, whoever wrote this commentary, at least in the second chapter.

[Speaker 1]
That's true.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Especially if he's the guy who wrote this, the commentary to the last three chapters.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh. Right. Yeah, right.

So it requires further research, unfortunately, is all I can tell you for now. I did dig and I'm sorry, I don't, I don't yet have a stronger bunch of stuff for you.

[Speaker 1]
So I'll make a suggestion for your, if you want to, just for fun.

[Speaker 2]
Sure.

[Speaker 1]
Check the Tibetan commentaries next.

[Speaker 2]
Right. Yep.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, there's a bunch. We've input like 15, probably. Yeah.

So see which, see what they call their chapters.

[Speaker 2]
We'll have to. Yeah, we'll have to. And I'm sure, you know, Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk will assert some opinion on the matter.

[Speaker 1]
But I like this opinion that if the original commentary, if the first commentary to Dharmakirti's four chapters, he started and only finished the first chapter, and somebody else did the last three chapters, then it makes sense that the second chapter in their book would be the third chapter in the root text.

[Speaker 2]
That's right, right, which happens to be Munson.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so we didn't, maybe we can't decide until we study the Tibetans.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Cool.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Nice job. That's so good. I like it when you guys do research, and I don't have to spend hours at home.

And I can sit with staging and do administrative stuff. Just a lot more fun. Just kidding.

I'm not kvetching.

[Speaker 2]
Just, yeah, okay, cool. I got a bunch of chats from people while I was sharing my screen, but I can't say just things that I should share my screen different. But generally, it's really hard to read chats while you're sharing your screen.

So I'm sorry, I missed everything everyone said to me during that time.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true. Okay, I think we're here.

I think we covered this part here. Are you finished? These two, we did you finish these these two paragraphs?

Yes. A lot of, a lot of ideas here. If you want to, if you're bored someday, you can read all these notes I took.

I studied Birutana and those guys. Okay, you could work up a little bit of biography about them. There's about, okay, here we go.

I'm going to split this up kind of artificially and we might not do the finished book that way. Okay, and Allie's sitting here and she said she's dying to check Ben Kramer. It's the first sentence there.

[Speaker 2]
You're right here.

[Speaker 1]
All right, here we go.

[Speaker 2]
No time for putting down a notch. So the compendium and the commentary to the compendium right? You?

[Speaker 1]
I don't, this doesn't make sense. A sentence doesn't make sense.

[Speaker 2]
They were not translated during the earlier wave of the teachings, which seemed to have been implied already, but I don't know about Gashé.

[Speaker 1]
It's just, it just seems like there might have been, may have been, been a may here. It doesn't feel normal Tibetan. There's something wrong with the sentence.

Okay, and you'll get to know that after 50 years of trying. All right.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, the compendium. Samachaya.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and Samananda.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, Dharmakirti's commentary.

[Speaker 1]
Etc. It's weird for a sentence to say few, not translated in the first part of the translation effort by the Tibetans. Okay, it just doesn't, the sentence doesn't make sense.

If there had been a Gashé lay, that would make sense, because then it would say, except for the few, you know, super classics, except for these few super classics, nothing else was translated during the first translation period in Tibet.

[Speaker 2]
So if that lays there, then it means the opposite of what it otherwise seems to.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, because you wouldn't say they didn't translate a few. You see what I mean? It doesn't make any sense.

In Tibetan, it doesn't make any sense.

[Speaker 2]
Maybe by some extreme, extraordinary error, maybe even the Gashé is lay.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, that's very possible. Yeah. So, that would make some sense.

Maybe the, or the Gashé was lay. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Doesn't it say the Samakundu and the Samanamdrel weren't amongst the few that were translated?

[Speaker 1]
No.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
It doesn't say that. Yeah. Yeah.

It's just the sentence is something wrong with it. I'm telling you. Okay.

By the way, do we have any other statement in your text so far that says during the first translation wave, any books were translated? Didn't they say no books were translated?

[Speaker 2]
They said, yeah, they said none of the works on accurate perception were translated, I thought. Only a few sutras, and they mentioned two sutras, and...

[Speaker 1]
I tend to think that's correct.

[Speaker 2]
Right. So, that makes this...

[Speaker 1]
That means you don't lay here.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
But there's no sense to make a sentence like this. A few were not translated during the first translation period. It doesn't make any sense because none of them were.

[Speaker 2]
No, and if he keeps bringing it up, then you would think that at some point, he's going to tell us when they were or were not translated. So, it's either going to come up again, or this is when they were translated.

[Speaker 1]
You know, if you read the next sentence, this first sentence would make more sense if it had a lay in it.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Let's go to this. Let's go to the next sentence. Cool.

By the way, are we sure that they were talking about the Nadar and Siddhar above?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, well, I, you know... No, I mean, I'm not sure. That's what I tried to say in my assignment, and you accepted it provisionally, but you're always allowed to re-review it.

I think it was even the prior paragraph to the... Exactly the prior paragraph to this.

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry to wait.

[Speaker 2]
No, no, no, no. Let's be sure. This is what we do.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it clearly says that in the first wave, just a few odd sutras. So, it doesn't seem like this should say no more than a few during the first wave. Okay.

It's just that ga she means few. So, let's check elsewhere. Let's check another source, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Let's check another source. And I don't know, I mean, I assume that a lot of these books were translated into Chinese before the Nadar. You know what I mean?

But I don't think they would bring that up here. Okay. Okay, keep going.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Ellie still wants to check you. She's just jumping up and down and insisting.

[Speaker 2]
That's nice of her. I appreciate the support. Temba chidar kap lo chen rin chen sangpo ya shung po ke tu gyurwa shinduman.

[Speaker 1]
Yay.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. The latter wave.

[Speaker 1]
By the way, this is not a translation wave. It's a teaching wave, right? Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, right. Yeah, the latter wave of Temba, of the teachings.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Lo chen rin chen sangpo.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, by the way, what's lo chen stand for?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, big, big, big year?

[Speaker 1]
Lo tsawa chenpo.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, lo tsawa chenpo. Yeah, the great lo tsawa.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. All right. Lo chen is an abbreviation.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, good.

[Speaker 1]
For great translator. Big lo. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Yeah, just that individual, I guess, translated a heck of a lot of shungs, of Sanskrit works into Tibetan.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I mean, you should confirm that he didn't do it from Chinese. Okay? Because it could, it would say gyal also.

I believe it's Sanskrit. I believe it's Sanskrit. But you could check from, you could just look up his name in...

What's the person's name? Shu chen sutrim, rin chen sutrim or sutrim rin chen?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It's sometimes extremely useful to search that single volume of the dergay, teng gyur, dergay, yeah, dergay, kang gyur, and teng gyur catalog. Okay. Yeah, and you can, you look up rin chen sangpo, and you see if they mention gyal nar ever.

Let's do it together. Yay! Okay.

Here we go. So, I'm going to share. Okay, good.

Here we go. So, here's how we would check that. Okay, search setting rin chen.

I'm sorry, we're looking to see, what was the translator's name, rin chen sangpo?

[Speaker 2]
I don't know. I'm looking. Let's see.

[Speaker 1]
Rin chen sangpo.

[Speaker 2]
Well done.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, and do we find him anywhere near the word china or gyal, okay? Okay, and then we're going to go to that single catalog, which I happen to keep down here. Okay.

[Speaker 3]
And there's also a biography of him in Sikh.

[Speaker 1]
Good, okay. Does it mention gyal gor or gyal nar?

[Speaker 3]
I'm looking right now.

[Speaker 1]
We got to refine the search, Ben. We got to put a space before gyal.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, good, of course.

[Speaker 1]
Because otherwise we're hitting too many eights and hundreds and jewels and, okay. All right, here we go. Okay, that's not helpful.

[Speaker 2]
Gyal gor.

[Speaker 1]
Here it mentions he was working with an Indian.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, he was working with an Indian.

[Speaker 2]
Yes. Should we just go straight for gyal nar? Because if we find that at all, that's pretty bad.

[Speaker 1]
Let's do gyal nar and gyal gor. How's that?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, great. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Speaker 1]
For fun.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
There you go. Okay, so here he's working with that Indian. Here he's working with an Indian.

Here he's working with an Indian. Here he's working with... Okay, cancel.

Okay, good. So it's definitely Sanskrit. I'm going to put confirmed Sanskrit.

Okay. So he translated many, many texts. Awesome.

[Speaker 2]
You got to switch your screen share again if you would.

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry. Okay, and we're going to go to the next line. And Tim was jumping up and down asking if he could...

That was too cute. I'm sorry.

[Speaker 2]
Go. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And I was going to suggest for our next class, I know it's not till next term, but I don't know much about these two dharwas. And I thought even if you use... I think this is something you could trust a Western scholar on.

It'd be interesting to know the rough dates and roughly what happened. There were two waves of the teaching spreading into Tibet, called the earlier wave and the later wave. And it's just...

I don't know the history very well. I don't know the history at all. So it'd be interesting.

Okay, so Tim ran away. But I guess Seiji had to do it. Oh, I'm sorry, you finished.

Okay, you guys don't know the word tute. Tute, with a slightly different spelling, means a kind of sampa cake.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And with the M, it means... What do you call that? One thing stops and another starts.

They're like...

[Speaker 2]
Sequential.

[Speaker 1]
But there's an English word.

[Speaker 3]
Overlapping?

[Speaker 1]
Not overlap. One goes into the...

[Speaker 2]
And then it... Consequential.

[Speaker 1]
Anyway, I translate... No, tute means like if you have two pieces of rope and you tie them together.

[Speaker 3]
Consecutive slice. Sequential slice.

[Speaker 1]
It means they got connected historically. The end of one period tute into the beginning of the next period.

[Speaker 2]
In series? Overlapped.

[Speaker 1]
But no, it's that one stopped and then the other one started immediately. Not that they overlapped. There was a continuity.

Tute means continuity or something between two things. Okay. What he's saying here is ching juk nyi tute means, you know, one just piled in after the other.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
So first one translator worked really hard. And he translated a lot of books. And then there was a pile of translators.

One after the other, after the other, after the other. Okay. And they started translating everything.

Okay. That's what happened with your students. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
They picked up what they left off, sort of.

[Speaker 1]
Exactly, exactly. And it just became a lineage. Okay.

What's got in?

[Speaker 2]
The kindness of a teacher. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Who's got in?

[Speaker 2]
This is, I'm guessing, of each previous teacher?

[Speaker 1]
No, the Loan Sellers are cut in.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, right. Oh, through the kindness of the translators.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you never see the translators get any credit. Ever, never. Nobody ever thanks the translators.

And they worked for 700 years. Okay, it wasn't just a couple of mixed nuts. Okay.

So, God bless him for thanking the translators. Okay. Kātencheno.

Kāten means kādantendra. You good for that? Kāngir and tendra.

Kāngir. I'm sorry. It means sutras and śāstras.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Tumā.

[Speaker 2]
A lot.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Translated into Tibetan.

[Speaker 1]
So, the qīdār was gepa compared to the ngādhar.

[Speaker 2]
The qīdār was big, vast, extensive compared to the early wave where not much happened.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the second wave was much, much bigger than the first wave. Yay. And now, not only does he refer to the translators as being kind to all of us, he says, let's name the major ones.

There's Seiji. There's Ben. There's Utpala.

Let's say their names just out of respect, and then we're not going to do anything with the names, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, and who's checking you is Christina Gathica. Yay!

[Speaker 2]
Yay! Yay! Yay!

[Speaker 1]
Yay!

[Speaker 2]
Oh, Maitreyi knew that guy.

[Speaker 1]
What's that last line mean? After Lodro Temba.

[Speaker 2]
After Lodro Temba, all these guys, well, I guess all of these guys translated teachings on accurate perception into Tibetan.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yay. Now, I just want to teach you guys something since we have a big long list of Tibetan names here. Yeah.

I want you to separate out when they say Ben Kramer from Indiana. When they say Indiana Ben Kramer, I want you to separate it out. I don't want you to be lazy, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I'm just going to give you an example, okay? Ma is probably a place name in the first line. Okay.

Narzo is a place name. Okay. I'm not sure about Nache.

Martung is a place name.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Ngok is a place name. Vande just means Buddhist monk. All right.

And it's not Pandita, it's Vande. Patsap is a place.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Sankar is a place. Tro is a place. And that's all.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
I'm not going to go as far as to say from Tro. I'm just going to say Indiana Geshe Michael. I'm not going to say Geshe Michael from Indiana.

[Speaker 1]
I'd like you to say of. Okay. Just to show that you know that it's, like, you can say Sutrim Gyawa of Naxo.

Oh, or something like that. Yeah. I don't want you to say Naxo Sutrim Gyawa.

Okay. Because they are place names.

[Speaker 2]
Makes sense.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. That means you kind of have to find the places.

[Speaker 2]
It's true.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. It'd be interesting to know where they came from. Like, were they all from the same state?

Or were they from all over Tibet? Or what was it? Okay.

Oh, I see.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Yeah. All right.

Sure.

[Speaker 1]
Seiji wants to check in next. He told me.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Good.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, cool. Hmm. He identifies the translator of the sutra.

An Accurate Perception.

[Speaker 2]
Right. Yeah, and also the commentary.

[Speaker 1]
Uh, no. Yeah, well, yeah, Dharmakirti, right?

[Speaker 2]
Right. Yeah, both, right?

[Speaker 1]
By the way, Ngoc London Sherab, I forget why he's famous. We were working on him for a while. I forget.

We were working on him for like a couple months one time. You remember? I don't remember.

Anyway, Sakya Kunga Gyeltsen is the Sakya Pandita. So you should note that. He wrote some early logic works.

And we're going to get them quoted in your book. Or somebody's book. So he's exceptional.

And he basically is the reason why the Mongols didn't wipe out Tibet. Okay. So anyway, those three guys, they're both translated and they Chöpa.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, and they also taught. They wrote books on the topic.

[Speaker 1]
Uh, they fixed it.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, they fixed it. Oh, that's interesting.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, they had different teams translating and fixing. Or updating the translations. So maybe Utpal was born in the second team.

I don't know.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Can that Chöpa, can it also just mean they commented as well?

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry, which word? Oh, no, no, no. Mm-mm.

That's, Chöpa means they edited. Yeah. They repaired.

Sometimes the king would say, I want a different translation standard, and they had to update everything. Okay. The Sakya Pandita is famous because he memorized the 8,000 verses in Sanskrit.

And he would recite it for fun. I don't know if he was in a bathtub with sesame oil or not. And so, Chöpa Sok Nangte, Tathe Dusu, Chen Yen Kyi Tsowa Tse To.

And those two works became the ones that we focus on nowadays in Tibet. Okay. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Sure.

[Speaker 1]
And Dharmakirti. Okay. All right, keep going.

And who's checking is, I don't know, Utpal is available. Yay.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Yeah. Part of the book that was promised above.

Where, oh, I'm sorry. Right, well, okay. So, well, I mean, I know from above that now we're talking about uh, you know, with native Tibetan commentaries.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. Yeah, so, pu-rang-gi-tsong means uh, written by Tibetans themselves. Okay.

Tsongche. Tsongche. Yeah.

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Alright, on the topic of accurate perception.

[Speaker 1]
Good. Good, good. Yeah.

Now, it's funny that he makes the next sentence. You guys can work it out. You work it out, Ben.

He che-pa, he che-nyen ze-pa. In the Lam Rim, che-nyen means to study and teach. And there's the etiquette, the, uh, what do you call that?

The protocol. The protocol, exactly. For che-nyen, it's one of the Lam Rims.

It is one of the Lam Ki Rims. Okay, the protocol. So he, he did do che-nyen about tse-ma.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
But the le is, the le is disjunctive, disjunctive.

[Speaker 2]
Right. Okay, but he didn't, he didn't write a book about it.

[Speaker 1]
Good, yeah. He taught it a lot. He translated it, but he didn't, uh, write any books of his own about, uh, tse-ma.

[Speaker 2]
Right, the first ze-pa is different than the last ze-pa. Uh, I mean, he che-nyen ze-pa. So he, what did...

[Speaker 1]
Oh, he, he, he did oral teachings, but he never wrote a book about it.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, so ze doesn't have to be composed here. I mean, it's not, it's just kind of...

[Speaker 1]
Oh, right, yeah. It's just a honorific, honorizer, honorificizer.

[Speaker 2]
Just did that. Right, it's like a...

[Speaker 1]
He honorably, he honorably taught, and he didn't honorably write. Okay, okay. Okay, good question, good question.

Okay, we keep going. And Word is going to check. Yay!

[Speaker 2]
Uh, cha-pa-chu-ki-sen-ge tse-me shun-la, tse-nyen ya-che-ze, uh, du-ra she-pe shun-ze, uh, den-i tse-me ten-chu-la, chuk-pe go-ta-bu-hin.

[Speaker 1]
Nice. Uh, cha-pa-chu-ki-sen-ge is a person's name. I assume cha-pa is a place name.

Okay, you should check it out.

[Speaker 2]
So, he also... And then, uh... Sorry, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It means, like, Dharma Lion, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. He also mostly just studied and taught on the topic.

[Speaker 1]
Uh, extensively. It just means extensively.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He was involved with the oral transmission heavily.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
But he also...

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, he wrote a book of collected topics.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
We'll have to probably footnote what that means so people understand that it relates to the topic.

[Speaker 1]
He's going to talk about it. Oh, good.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Right now.

[Speaker 2]
That... Uh-huh. Uh...

Was, um... Yeah. Uh...

On the, um... On the commentaries... Uh...

Uh... Was, um... Yeah, was a way of entering through the Dora commentaries on...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Uh, the Dora became a standard go for entering the Tantras.

[Speaker 2]
Cool.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
And it is that, right? So, this is the... The way in which one engages through the commentaries on accurate perception.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. So, like, Adam's first book, which is done but not done yet, Uh... Mm-hmm.

It's a door for people who want to study the great books on Pramana from India. Okay? If you want to study the classics by Dignaga or by Dharmakirti, first study Dora.

Okay? And Dora was invented by Chapachukhi Senge. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. We have that book. That's kind of interesting, huh?

[Speaker 1]
Well, I'm going to give you a whole thing, and I want you to add it to your footnote. Okay? Here we go.

We're going to go off on a Chapa journey. Okay? I don't know why, but his name has always fascinated me.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And I don't know why. I have something about him. So, here's the first thing I want to say.

You see his name also spelled Piyapa and Piyavapa. Really unusual. Okay?

I think these are probably correct. And so you have to – BDRC has an interesting function of place names, and it's mostly useless, and it has a few great things in it. So, I mean, they rarely update it or help.

It's not very helpful, but sometimes you can find something. That someone took the time is amazing. It's probably Gene Smith, right?

Okay. So, I went and found as many duras as I could. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And I was curious to try to find a dura by Chapachuky Senge.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
And I didn't find that dura. I found other duras. There's many other duras.

It became a genre, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I started with Chapachuky Senge. The most famous one, the greatest one, is the one that Adam's working on. By Seng Ngawang Tashe.

Who was the student of, the direct disciple of... What's his name? The...

Ngawang... Jamyang Chepa, sorry. Yeah, Jamyang Chepa.

Who also wrote the history of Tsongkhapa that we translated.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
The biography. Okay. Now, what I want to point out here is that if you want illustrations for your book, and black and white lawn drawings are cute in a book, I think they're nice in a book, we're going to put, for example, we already did put sections from the meditation poster into Utpalasni book.

So, when we cataloged the 141,000 books in Russia, Yes. we noted the carvings.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
And we named every single one. There's maybe half a million, okay? And that's where I found the only carving of Choney Lama.

Okay? So here, check here in the color form. When it says AL, Yes.

or AC, these are carvings. So here's all of the guys. Here's many of the great early Tsema people, including Chapachuki Senge.

Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Here he is here. Durjor Sulje Choseng. Okay?

Chap. Durjor... Dura Sulje.

Shinde Sulje. Dura Sulje. He's the guy who invented the Dura.

And they have a short name, Choseng. Okay? So I thought it'd be fun for you.

Getting them out of the Russians is not an easy thing. They change their staff every few years, and it just depends on what kind of staff you run into. They might charge you $300 or something.

I don't know. They get crazy sometimes. Okay, anyway, these are all Duras, but the...

I'm sorry, and there's more pictures here. The same carving, different... There's a lot of repeated...

Many, many of the books in St. Petersburg are copies. Why? They were stolen from the Mongolian monks who were murdered, and then the books went to St. Petersburg. Okay? So it's their personal books. So there's 20...

There's 500 of the same carving of the Heart Sutra, for example, or something like that. So, anyway. Yeah, these are all Duras, okay?

And it's not there. There's no Dura... There's no book by Champa Chuky Senge called Dura that I could find.

And I looked hard, but I found a bio of them, a mini-bio, and I think a mini-bio would be nice. So let's read it. Do you mind?

[Speaker 2]
I don't mind.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, here we go. This is a mini-bio from Mingde, the Treasury of Names, which is a very important catalog of Gelugpa books, okay? And the author put tiny mini-biographies of every important Lama, and they're very helpful.

He figured out their birth years, their passing years. Whoever did that is a good piece of work. Here we go.

What if they spell his name correctly?

[Speaker 2]
Okay, we feel this is the correct one because it's got the most letters?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. The more letters has to be correct. You're right.

Translate that much. By the way, when you're speaking in the third person about another person nowadays, and you say, Kong, it's honorific. His Honorable Self, Kong, he was born in the...

[Speaker 2]
1109? Come on, you're cheating.

[Speaker 1]
He was born in the second cycle of 60 years, after some great king. So we count cycles of 60 years. There's 12 years, combinations of animals, animals and elements, 12 animals, 5 elements, something like that.

And then gender also, male, female. And... I want to show you something, okay?

[Speaker 2]
I mean, this is not something I've ever learned.

[Speaker 1]
Say again?

[Speaker 2]
It's not something I've ever learned.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, it's very helpful.

[Speaker 2]
I bet.

[Speaker 1]
Let me see. Let me see here.

[Speaker 2]
You'd be amazed at the stuff I don't know.

[Speaker 1]
Well, I'm going to... This is a tool. You know, probably I should have tool classes with you guys, but I'm just too lazy.

So we're going to use SIG, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
And we're going to search for 1109, just so I can do it quickly, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Are you going to show us your screen, Geshe-la?

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry, that's not... That was not very clever.

[Speaker 2]
We are at time. You know, I should just...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay, I just want to show you something. Now, when we input the Great Dictionary...

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
We put it in files by letter. So if you look at the bottom here, this is the letter T. Okay?

This is the letter T. We want to go to the letter YRS.

[Speaker 2]
Why?

[Speaker 1]
That's the chronology at the end of the Great Dictionary. And it's extremely valuable. It's extremely valuable.

So there's a... Each chapter is called by the main letter, T-A. Okay?

And YRS is what I named the file that has all the chronology in it. Okay? So we're going to next file until we hit...

Years. There we go. Yeah.

And here's 1109.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And I want to show you something. You have two fire years, followed by two earth years, followed by two iron years. Okay, got it?

[Speaker 3]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
And then one is male and one is female, and that tells you whether it's the first one or the second one.

[Speaker 2]
Okay? Okay.

[Speaker 1]
So there's two earth years. So you say male earth year, and then you say female earth year. And that nails down which earth year.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, it's in that order?

[Speaker 1]
I think so, because I think we're dealing here with a female year. So male first, female second. And then the author of the Great Dictionary, who's unbelievable, and I rarely say that, right?

He put in the rab chungs. He put in the 60-year cycles. So that too, after 1109, means second 60-year cycle.

Okay? Second cycle of 60 years, since the Tibetan royalty started or something like that. Okay?

And many, many colophones, they didn't know about Jesus's birthday, so they would say the second cycle of 60 years since the Tibetan kings of the classic. So if you know the cycle, and you know the animal, you can nail down the Christian year. Okay?

Got it? Yeah, so now we got, according to the author of this biography, he was born in the female earth year of the second cycle of 60 years. So you go here, it says earth, female, second cycle, 1109.

Okay? And by the way, the author says here, chapa chuky senge tung.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah, she does. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Chapa chuky senge was born in 1109. And I don't trust 80% of the work done by Western scholars. But if I find it in the great dictionary chronology, I believe it.

He's good. He's really good. Okay?

So you can trust those years. Okay? Yay!

And we'll just have to finish this guy later.

[Speaker 2]
I mean, I guess I can also comb TBRC, just in case.

[Speaker 1]
But you see, who wrote TBRC? Oh, yeah, yeah. I have a theory.

I have a theory that his dura is not called a dura. I found a book that I think is the one they call a dura. I don't know if he ever called it dura himself.

And I totally would approve of taking any book by chapa chuky senge in the BDRC and inputting it before the next term. Okay. But I'll tell you an interesting thing.

And this is something that's important to me. We should have a core database, and we should have a secondary database. And chapa chuky senge should be in the secondary database.

Because... Because he was a sakya 200 years before Tsongkapa, 300 years before Tsongkapa, who did not accept Madhyamika. Who specifically didn't accept Madhyamika.

So do you want that in your core database? Do you want baby students hitting that as their opinion of Madhyamika? So I would put it in a secondary...

I would call it the secondary database. And that's why the decision of which book goes in the main database is extremely delicate. And right now, Geshe-la is 68 years old.

It's pure. There's no corrupt, stupid opinions in the database. But if you just start throwing in any book you can find, you will corrupt it.

And then when you search it, you won't get answers. Yay! So quote me.

Later. Don't throw books into the database. Screen them carefully, so that anytime you hit something, you know it's philosophically correct.

And then we should have those other guys, but they should be in a secondary database. Okay. Cool?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
All right. I spoke my piece.

[Speaker 2]
Taranata would be another. Earl's asking about Taranata. I'm imagining something similar.

[Speaker 1]
Well, you see, that's a judgment call. But Taranata's historical works are already in our database. And things like that.

You see what I mean? So that's a judgment call. And that's why somebody who's very sensitive has to decide what books go into the database.

Okay. Thank you.

[Speaker 2]
My last class of the term. So, you know...

[Speaker 1]
Yay! Congratulations.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I'd like to imagine what if there was a whole world where everybody understood this book? That'd be nice.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. We'd be out of a job. I don't know.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Great.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. Thank you. Feed Ezra well so he can take over after you.

Fine.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, we're working on him.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good.