Адам Андраде — Книга 2: Логика. Рассеивая тьму, занятие 3

[Speaker 1]
Try to sleep with your thinking cap on. Try to sleep with your thinking cap on. That's the target, you're kind of falling off.

See you guys tomorrow. Don't forget, everybody, tomorrow at 7 AM Arizona time again. So the schedule alternates from here.

We have early days, and then some days are one hour later. So just look at the schedule to know when to join the call, this call for these classes. So anyway, have a great Q&A, Adam.

Cool, man. Yeah. Thank you.

Thanks for setting all this up, brother.

[Speaker 3]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
We'll see you soon.

[Speaker 3]
All right.

[Speaker 1]
Adam, you'll become host, and then you can just stop the recording when you, you will automatically stop the recording. Tim might ask you to stop the YouTube, which would just mean you click on the top left YouTube button and say, oh wait, no, that's not, Tim might ask something of you. Totally.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Yeah, I'll ask something of you.

[Speaker 1]
Something very easy. It's basically what Nick was saying, Adam. At the end of the Q&A in the upper left, you'll become a host.

There's a little button where it says live on YouTube. You'll see a little down arrow that allows you to select on it and stop the stream before you end the class. That's all.

OK, that sounds good. Super simple.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you very much. Hi, Tim. Yes.

Can you set Isabelle? I can. Thank you.

And she's set.

[Speaker 1]
Love the crickets, Adam. Yeah, I know. It's kind of appropriate, isn't it?

I went and got a couple just specifically for the low sections of the Q&A. All right, so I'm promoting all the participants to panelists so they can share their screen and just be able to talk and ask questions. Cool, that sounds good, man.

Cool.

[Speaker 2]
Everyone's there except for everyone. Cool. All right, so you can get started.

[Speaker 1]
All right, brother. Thanks, Tim. So if you guys want to ask questions, you can ask in the chat.

You can speak. You can type in the Q&A.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah. Are those crickets real or just sound effect?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, they're real, actually. They're real. Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
OK. Wow. Sounds so good.

You have them in your house, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, in the house?

[Speaker 2]
In my living room.

[Speaker 3]
I give them some time. It's really hard. Keeps me awake at night.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, totally. I've learned to kind of drown them out a little bit. I've learned how to catch them.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, I should probably have said it. You keep them as pets?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I'll start naming them and charging them rent.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, really?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Hey, Adam, what was the third way to get disciples? Encouraging them to, oh, gosh, it was, sorry, one second.

The crickets. Giving gifts, encourage them, practice what you preach, and then reaching one. Yeah, so I'm pretty sure it was encouraging them to do good things.

Yeah, encouraging them to put the teachings into practice. Sorry. Yeah, so not just leaving it in the books.

Get them to learn. Yeah. Cool.

So yeah, he was saying that you've got to kind of, that, sorry, Catherine's asking me to make Isabelle an interpreter, and I might have to just figure out how to do that. So Adam, yeah, so down at the bottom right of the screen, there's a button that says interpretation. Interpretation, right.

Click on that. And then where it says, no, no, keep it, say, on your side, say off, but at the bottom it says manage interpreters or something like that. Yeah, totally.

Yeah, and then at the top where it says interpreter one, in that box type in Isabelle. Yeah. And then at the bottom say start or update.

Okay, cool. Yeah, that's pretty straightforward. Yeah, so I think, you know, I've got a big problem with this because with the third quality or the third characteristic for how to attract students, I think the problem for me is really, sorry, somebody's knocking at the door now.

The problem for me is that I take so many teachings from Geshe Michael that, yeah, one second, guys. And yeah, so I take, it seems like I've had so many teachings over the years that we've just been given so many meditations, so many instructions that it's, you know, I find it really hard to kind of focus on them all and really put them all into practice. And I was reading part of the Lam Rim that was saying that you can become hardened to the Dharma if you don't actually practice the teachings.

So you might get the impression that the teachings don't work or that a certain meditation isn't good for something if you don't actually do it. And so you've got to make conscious effort to kind of make the teachings a part of your life. And, you know, I know that's something I struggle to do just because it feels like we have such a holy teacher and he's always giving us such like really, really, really beautiful and practical teachings.

I mean, the way that Geshe Michael teaches is really for us to practice. He teaches in such a way that makes it really easy. So yeah, I guess, you know, rather than answer the question, because we've already answered it, I was just kind of trying to give, you know, a little bit of, just a little bit of personal experience with that one.

And I can say that it is, it's a big, you know, I think it's a big, you know, it can be a big problem for students because if they don't practice what you're teaching them, then, you know, they can become hardened to the Dharma and turn away from it. And, you know, it's very precious, this opportunity. So you don't want to squander it by not practicing it.

So anyways.

[Speaker 2]
I think there's a tendency for people who are studying a lot to just get into studying and take it as an academic pursuit rather than as a practice.

[Speaker 1]
I think that's something to be careful of. Yeah, totally. Yeah, and I know, you know, I don't know because I obviously, I can't get, I don't personally know the level to which anybody else is studying.

But I, you know, I could definitely see how that would be a problem, especially at universities or, yeah, I think that's definitely a big problem. So Rick was saying, Rick was asking if I could start a study group based on the Dura. And yeah, that's actually something I've been planning on doing.

So I've kind of been working on developing a, like a course, like a lecture series to go along with it. We tried to do like debate kind of classes at the Lam Rim retreats. And we would never, we were kind of, we were never given the opportunity to really go to get into deeper and deeper material because we would have new people come into the class each retreat.

So we would kind of have to stay very surface level. But so that's been something I've wanted to do for years, man. I think it's a great idea.

Rick, I'll tell you what, if you want to, I'll tell you what, I'll put my email address in the chat and you can send me an email and we can work something out together. How about that? Sorry, I'm a little bit scattered too right now.

So I may not be, I may not be doing too well, you know, with the questions. I think the crickets are getting to me.

[Speaker 2]
Can you post the list of the books again that you had in your homework?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so I can, I'll put the list in and I can get the Sanskrit as well. I've got the Sanskrit memorized, but I don't know if I'd be able to get the pronunciation.

Right, so I'll just give you the Tibetan and the English.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, mama. Oh, hey, Ava. Yeah, totally.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, throw some questions at me. I'll be here all night.

[Speaker 2]
Why do you think that he went in the order he went in to thank people or to bow down to people?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, well, he was giving parallels. So like, for instance, like what comes to mind is Geshe-la was saying that he bowed down to Master Dharmakirti and Master Dignaga, and then he chose to bow down to his yong-zin, his tutor, which is Jetsang Khapa. So he bowed down first and then he said, like, he bowed down to Master Dharmakirti and Master Dignaga.

And then he was like, but I bow down to my holy tutor because they're, you know, so amazing. So, you know, there are parallels. The first, I think he bowed down to Ishvara and or Shiva, Lord Shiva.

And I'm not sure who it was after that. I'll have to go back and look. But once again, there was a reason.

And I'll have to look at it for one second. Oh, yeah. So then it was kind of the same thing.

Like he was saying, you're really cool and you're really cool. But my teacher is like the most amazing. And so that's kind of what he did in the first verse is he bowed down to or he said, um, what was it?

He was talking about Lord Shiva and his crowns and his crown. And he called him the black throated one. He said he was burdened by a crown of dreadlocks.

Um, but then, you know, he said that even Lord Shiva is like a, was it? It was Pabmor Bonwashin, Shabki Pabmor Bonwashin, that Lord Shiva comes to, Lord Shiva comes to the feet of Lord Buddha, like a bee to a lotus. Um, and I think in the verse after that, he says, I've got it right here.

Yeah, so he's, yeah, he's kind of doing the same thing. He's saying, Lord Shiva is really cool. But he, he finds Lord Buddha really, really cool.

And Master Dharmakirti, Master Dignaga, they're cool. But, you know, my Lama is like the most supreme. My Lama is the most amazing.

[Speaker 3]
Hey, Adam, can you remind me again? Why did Ketap J bring Lord Shiva into the discussion? Sorry, I might have missed this part.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I, you know, because Geshe Michael was saying that, that Lord Shiva has some pretty amazing qualities himself. Like, Lord Shiva is able to, like, the, the analogy or the, the example that Geshe Michael always uses is that beings on the level of Lord Shiva are able to play marbles with planets. And so he's kind of saying, like, these beings are pretty magnificent.

Like, they can do some pretty cool things. But even they, you know, bow down to Lord Buddha. They run to the feet of Lord Buddha.

So he brought Lord Shiva into the discussion as a way for drawing an analogy, um, to say that he, he specifically compares Lord Shiva to a bee going to, going to collect nectar from the Buddha. You see?

[Speaker 3]
I see. Okay, got it. Thanks a lot.

So it's just like a metaphor. That's something, yeah, this is much better than that. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, totally. It's so beautiful. It's really, I mean, yeah, I'm looking forward to the philosophy, but I find the poetry, like, uh, you know, I think it really says a lot because, um, I've read some of the poetry that Geshe-la has translated, um, obviously in a lot of his, a lot of his translations, but specifically in Gomba Raksal.

And, um, I just fell in love with it, really. And I was like, if I could, if I could learn to translate poetry the way that Geshe-la translates, you know, then I'll know that I'm a real translator, you know? Um, it's obviously, that's like, it's really, really hard to translate poetry and to do it well.

Um, so yeah, I, I like the analogies that he's drawing. I'm looking forward to getting into the philosophy though, too.

[Speaker 3]
Thank you, Adam.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, man, of course. Am I, am I, am I speaking clear or am I like, am I going off on too many tangents? Oh, here.

So, um, this is a question from my mom, actually. Um, my mom's been listening to the, the teachings. Um, so she said, recently I heard it's best to stick with one form of meditation, but as a new meditator, um, how do I determine which one to follow?

Um, so there's an example from, um, there's an example from the Lam Rim that Pabonka Rinpoche uses. Um, so you guys have heard of, uh, friction fires, right? Like where you take two sticks and you kind of set one on the ground and then you get it going for a while, right?

And it takes like 45 minutes, an hour sometimes to get a friction fire going from rubbing two sticks together. Um, Pabonka Rinpoche uses that analogy because he says that switching meditation objects too soon is like letting the friction fire die before it's ready to ignite, you know? So you, you, when you, well, first off to find a proper meditation object, you really need to find a teacher who knows you well.

Um, and they'll, they've got abilities. Um, they have ability, they, they have the ability to really, um, they know you in a certain way that most people won't know you. So they can find a meditation object that fits you like just well, right?

Um, I've also heard that Geshe Michael says, um, I've, I've heard Geshe Michael say, um, that, um, usually about six weeks or so. Um, but it's usually whenever you feel like the meditation is getting a little stale, right? Like it'll lose a little bit of, of luster.

Um, you, you, you'll want to, you want to switch it off at that point. Um, so that means you gotta be kind of, um, you gotta be practicing daily and you've got to be, um, you've got to have a certain amount of personal kind of connection with your meditation object to know when you're losing interest in it and when it's starting to get a little stale. And I think at that point, um, you know, um, you should probably look for a new meditation object or ask your teacher at that point, but generally speaking, yeah, you don't want to switch meditation objects, uh, frequently because you're trying to ignite that friction fire within your mind.

So, um, you want to hold it, you know, and I just love that image that Pankaj Rinpoche used. So, um, so Rick says, um, we were told by J.B. Atharva that the invited teacher in a meditation is breaking one of the Bodhisattva vows. Any idea why so?

Um, that switching the invited teacher in a meditation is breaking one of the Bodhisattva vows. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I, I'm not sure I understand the question, Rick.

Um, um, give me a little bit more context. Um, oh, switching teachers. Um, I'm not sure.

Um, I'm really not sure. I haven't heard that before. Um, you know, I'm not sure why, and I don't want to tell you anything that's incorrect.

Um, I have heard Geshe Michael. Oh, you're talking about like during a single meditation session. So you sit down for a meditation session, um, and you switch teachers.

Um, you know, I'm not, I'm not entirely sure why, um, why that would be breaking the Bodhisattva vow. Um, maybe Venerable Jigme or, um, somebody who's been studying the Bodhisattva vows for longer than I have would be able to help.

[Speaker 3]
Um, I honestly haven't heard it either.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I'm not sure. To a specific vow that I can think of, so maybe by extension from some other vow. Might be best to ask John.

Yeah, totally. Um, and I'll be happy to ask him for you too, Rick, if you want me to. Um, you know, it's really interesting though, and that's why I'm saying I don't want to tell you anything that's incorrect, is that, um, Geshe Michael said a few times that, um, he, you know, after he had been practicing for a while, and, um, he started to see, um, a couple of his teachers were the same being, you know.

Um, so I think it's interesting too, because sometimes I play with that, and, um, yeah, I don't know. Um, I'm not too sure, Rick. I'm not too sure.

Um, like he, you know, he started to see that Ken Rinpoche and, um, and one of his other lamas were, were kind of the same being, like the same being wearing two, wearing two different masks, you know.

[Speaker 2]
If they're both coming from the same karma, from your same karma seed, then they could well be, you know, because they're all coming from you.

[Speaker 1]
Totally, totally, and, and I think also by, you know, a logical outflowing of that too is obviously that, that all beings are like that, right? That all beings are kind of masquerading as our, as our personal teacher. Um, oh, I see what you're saying.

It might be due to disrespect. You know, I'm, I'm sorry, Rick. Uh, yeah, I wish I, you know, I feel like you, you've got a really good question, man.

And I wish I could give you something more solid to go on. Um, but I also don't want to tell you anything, um, that might be incorrect. Um, but it's really interesting.

Um, I, but just for just, you know, in my personal practice, um, I, I don't switch teachers within a single meditation. Um, and I don't know if that's just habit. Um, but, uh, so I've, I've never had that problem before.

Um, but please, man, I, you know, uh, you, you've got, uh, you've got some, some really good questions. And, uh, I remember you were so passionate about, uh, logic in Thailand, um, the first year I met you. So I know you've got some good questions, man.

Keep firing. Oh, what's Chi Chedrak? Uh, so Chi Chedrak, um, you translate it as quality and characteristic, right?

But, um, it really does have some deep meaning. Um, Geshe Michael says that it's the key to, it's the, it's the, it's essentially the, it's the dynamite that'll, that'll kind of open up the ability for, um, that opens up the, uh, how can I put it? It's the most powerful thing you can study to, to really, um, if you want to see emptiness.

Um, so there's a few ways I can answer the question, man. Uh, because Geshe Michael has taught Chi Chedrak on, um, a few different levels. Um, and it usually tends to be how you choose to translate it, right?

So, um, if I say, um, things to drink out of, right? And then I have teacups, right? Can you see it?

So this is my coffee mug. I drink tea. I don't drink coffee.

Um, so you've got things to drink out of, which is kind of like a general category, you know, but then I have teacups, which is a specific kind of member of that category. If you think about it, all things can be broken down, um, underneath a single heading, right? So there's a over, I don't want to, um, trying to make sure I'm not getting too, uh, too detailed.

Um, so you guys have, you guys are pretty familiar with like, uh, DCI level seven, right? Um, so in DCI level seven, also in ACI four, um, Geshe Michael presents what's called the categories of existence. Um, when you look at the categories of existence, we're talking about everything, right?

Everything that exists, right? And even within this, uh, things that don't exist as well. So you've got, um, you've got one category, okay?

Um, that single category you could say is everything that is without a self, everything that is, that is selfless, okay? Everything that is empty, okay? If I say everything that is empty, that covers everything, doesn't it?

You know, cause there's nothing that isn't empty. So everything that, that everything that, everything that is empty covers things that exist and things that don't exist. Within things that exist, you've got what's called Sheja, and that's the overarching category of Sheja, right?

So if you look at Sheja, you can start to break it down into three different categories as well. So you've got working things, yeah? Um, maybe we don't need to go that far.

Basically, basically, uh, Chi Chedrak, um, is the study of qualities and characteristics. Um, and if you, I guess I'm trying to give you, um, the broadest, I'm, I'm trying to give you guys the, the insight that I got after studying it kind of deep, deeply, um, was that, um, Chi Chedrak essentially, um, is the study of all phenomenon. Um, so you can take anything, right?

Um, if I say, um, you've got a general category of glasses, right? If, cause I, I see a picture of Sugeng, and I see a Sugeng, and I see a picture of Jigme here, and they're both wearing glasses, right? So if I say the word glasses to you, then you get this mental image in your head, right?

Um, and it's kind of this, like, perfected version, this, like, um, this perfected version of, uh, of, of, you know, um, it's an unchanging thing, right? You get this mental image of glasses in your head. But then if I, you know, ask Jigme to, uh, to turn her video on, and you guys actually see a, an image of, of her, her glasses, or you can look at her picture and see her specific glasses, then that's, um, yeah, totally, totally.

Thanks, Jigme. Yeah, now see, now you've got, that's a specific, that's a specific example, right? So here's this, this changing version of an unchanging thing.

In the highest school, they say that there is no difference between the actual, the object, Jigme's glasses, and the mental image in your head. And I think one of the things that Geshe Michael did when he was trying to demonstrate this, um, maybe in Germany, um, or India, he drove a car into the lobby of, um, one of the convention centers, one of the arenas where he was speaking, um, to demonstrate that there's no difference between the mental image and the, um, in the actual object, that they are, in fact, the same thing. Um, what's interesting about Chi Chedrak, though, um, is that, I don't know, do you guys want to know more?

I mean, because I can, I can tell, I'm, I'm, I think I'm, I'm having, I'm having trouble explaining it, because I'm doing a lot of editing, self-editing, and so I just needed to know what, you know, how, how deep you guys want to go. So we can get into subtle impermanence, we can get into, um, we can get into subtle impermanence, um, we can get into, um, the direct perception of dependent origination and how that leads to the direct perception of, uh, emptiness. So when you think about mental images, right, um, those are unchanging things, you know, um, when you think about, um, actual objects, like the actual jigme's glasses, right, um, those are changing things, yeah.

So how do things change, and what's the nature of something that changes? Um, well, we know from studying with Geshe Michael that it's images, it's a series of images, right, so kind of like a, a very fast, coherent, um, movie that's playing, yeah, you get this set of glasses, and if I was to take that, that, if I was to take those glasses and put them on a table, um, they're constantly changing, aren't they? Like, even on a molecular level, um, they're degrading, right, um, so if you look at this, this, this, this pair of glasses and you were to leave it out in the sun over like a, you know, let's say 50 years, 100 years, they would eventually lose shape, lose their color, right, and all these interactions would be taking place, and they're not stable, right, they're changing moment to moment, but what you're finding out, though, is that it's a series of mental images, and it's just like a seed sprouting, the seed to see the glasses come into the world, right, and it begins to get to grow taller and taller, and then eventually it begins to die, um, and you start to see the seed, right, just like a plant, um, actually begin to wither and die, like the glasses going out of existence, so you have these seeds producing images, um, so how does that tie into subtle impermanence?

I ask you guys, what's the difference between subtle and gross impermanence? And I, believe me, I haven't lost track. This is, this all has to do with chichedron.

Anybody, you can just turn on your microphone if you want.

[Speaker 2]
Um, I think gross impermanence is like when you see a friend, and you haven't seen him for 10 years, and you say they haven't changed at all, but actually you're thinking, oh God, do I look that bad? You know, like lots of wrinkles and stuff. Is that correct, Adam?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, totally, um, yeah, I think another good example would be, you know, if I was to take this, this cup, and I was to drop it on the floor, right, or throw it against the wall or something, it would break, you know, um, so what's the difference between gross impermanence and subtle impermanence? And I had a talk with one of the monks when I was at Serra about subtle impermanence. Like the emptiness of the objects, um, coming in and out of existence?

Yeah, there you go. Totally. Do you want to do it?

So, so essentially, what, what, what is it about, um, subtle impermanence, right, that is tied up to the fact that emptiness is 100 percent empty? There's a good analogy in Course 13.

[Speaker 2]
Can you tell us a good analogy?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, um, so, um, Geshe Michael was saying that, um, like, you know, something's either 100 percent empty or it's not, right? So, you've got a cup that is, um, or let's say a pen, right? You've got a pen, and it begins to run out of ink, you know?

Well, is this thing, um, let's say each image that you see, right, is coming into and out of existence. It's blinking in and blinking out of existence, yeah? Each image is 100 percent empty, yeah?

So, subtle impermanence is, is this, subtle impermanence is linked to the changing nature of all phenomenon. So, I had a talk with monk, with, with a monk at, at Serra, um, and I was, at the time, I was convinced that if we developed a powerful enough microscope that we could look at, um, like a pen or a cup, right, on a, on, with an electron scanning microscope or something, and, um, that we would be able to see, um, its atomic nature kind of changing over time, that we could watch it degrade. And he said, no, no, no, no, no, you, you, you can't see subtle impermanence with a microscope.

You, you can't. You can't see something subtle, you know? You can't, you can't watch something, like, change on a subtle level like that.

So, it's more of an understanding or a realization, subtle impermanence, and it's tied to the changing nature of all phenomenon, right? And so, you're supposed to take that and apply the subtle impermanence of all things to yourself and to your mindstream, right? And so, studying Chi Chedrak can get you to look closer at mental images and their relationship to actual objects, which should be able to bring you closer to subtle impermanence directly, which they say is actually, um, sorry, Rick just said something.

Let me just finish up this one thought. Um, so, they say that subtle impermanence is, you have to have the direct perception of subtle impermanence before you have the direct perception of dependent origination, and that you have to have the direct perception of dependent origination before you have the direct perception of emptiness. So, if you want to have a clear-cut kind of set of, um, like, a step-by-step instruction for how you see emptiness directly, right?

Um, a cool thing you should do, I've played around with this, um, and I think it's a really good practice, um, but take the lion's dance, get really, really good at the lion's dance, yeah? Then, when you get into, um, this level nine, right? Um, start to do a Mahamudra meditation, yeah?

And I think that would begin to prepare you for, for having a direct perception of the subtle impermanence of your own mind, you know?

[Speaker 2]
Um, I guess. You guys still there?

[Speaker 1]
Sorry about that. Yeah, okay, cool. Coincidentally, I had this thought, uh, for the longest time, I was thinking about people who were born, uh, that lost a sense in their body in the later part of life, um, eyesight, hearing, speech, but ironically, their other good sense became so strong, uh, recall Geshe Michael mentioned, like, eyesight can be planted within this life.

Does he mean that the other defective senses can be planted in this life, too? I've witnessed a blind friend planted his eyesight back within a 20-year period. Wow, that's really cool, man.

Um, you know, yeah, there's nothing, you know, I would specifically say to stuff like this, that, um, there's actually a quote from Arya Nagarjuna, um, that he says, um, he says, for he whom emptiness is possible, all things are possible, right? Um, Master Dharmakirti, Master, Master Chandrakirti was able to milk a cow in a painting, you know, just for an example. So, um, you can do anything, you know, you can do anything if your meditation is good enough and you understand emptiness well enough.

You can, you can do miracles. So, uh, you know, personal, like, personally, um, you know, yeah, I, I, I wouldn't say that, that it's outside of the realm of possibility to plant seeds for any of the other senses. And sorry if, uh, if it seemed like I was getting off on too many tangents, but, um, and, uh, with the chi chedra question, um, uh, you know, it's, uh, it's a, it is a really deep topic and you could spend, we, we could spend hours talking about each one of those.

Um, so it's kind of hard for me to talk about it without just going full bore into it. Um, so yeah, nothing's outside of the realm of possibility. Like Arya Nagarjuna said, for he whom emptiness is possible, all things are possible.

Any more questions? Personally, I think it's great to have somebody riffing on, on emptiness and chi chedra. Yeah.

I mean, even if people can't follow all the logic, it plants a seed. Yeah, totally. It's, you know, it's very beautiful.

And, um, you know, I think one of the biggest things for me really was just the understanding that, um, because usually when Geshe Michael presents, uh, the categories of existence, he, he presents, um, and I'm not saying there's any fault in the way that he presents it. Um, but, um, when you look at everything that exists and even things that don't exist, like rabbit's horns or like a turtle with fur or a unicorn, right. Um, all of those things still fall underneath the, the overarching category of things that are empty.

And I never hear him say that, you know, like, obviously he, he does in his, in his, in his own way, because he says that, uh, obviously there's, there's nothing that you can point to and nothing that you can think about that isn't empty, you know, cause even we can think about unicorns, but they're empty too, you know? Um, so I just think, uh, there's a lot there. There really is a lot there.

Um, there's a lot to unpack too. I mean, the direct perception of dependent origination, you have to have that, right? Like you have to have that before you have the direct perception of emptiness.

Um, so how does the direct perception of dependent origination, um, blow out of the direct perception of subtle impermanence? Well, I think Maha Mudra meditations, like prepare you, like specifically prepare your mind, um, for the, like, for the state of mind that, that, that you have to have to watch a single seed pop out of, pop out, right? You see what I'm saying?

Um, like Maha Mudra seems to be specifically designed to watch seeds pop out of your mind. And I think the, um, the lion's dance was uniquely designed to prepare our mind to be agile enough to have, um, a deep Maha Mudra meditation.

[Speaker 2]
Um, so yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Sorry. I said definitely. Yeah.

Um, so I think combining the two, um, is obviously a really good practice. Um, and what you want to do is cause Maha Mudra, what you do is you take every existing thing as a possible meditation object. Um, and you can, so everything that can appear to your mind becomes a meditation object.

Um, and, uh, yeah, then you can learn to get, use the present moment meditation, which is kind of, uh, you know, tied into the, you know, a good Maha Mudra meditation, um, to still the mind, you know, um, and then you can... Oh, sorry. What was that?

Are you meditating on them as a group or individually? Oh, you know, I, I think just individually, whatever, whatever appears. Uh, and I think there's a couple of different ways that, um, I think there's a couple of different ways I took that.

Um, whenever Geshe Michael first told me was that you could have a Maha Mudra. Well, so the object of good meditation is to stay single pointed on a meditation object. Right.

Um, and if you, if you take, if you take all existing things as your meditation object, then your mind is never off the object. Um, yeah. So it's kind of like, um, like when you do a, like I, I do the Jor Chu practice every morning.

I'm like, I'm trying to memorize it. So I, I just, I'm getting really familiar with it. You know, um, I've been, you know, I've been studying it for like, what is it like 10 years now?

Um, I just feel really familiar with it. Um, but there are many different sections to the Jor Chu, um, and these many different, uh, yeah. So the Jor Chu, um, specifically means that it's called a necklace for the fortunate.

It's a ritual. Um, it's, I don't want to say ritual. Um, it's a, it's a, it's a meditation practice.

It's a series of prayers that you do that prepares your mind, um, to, to meditate on the long run. Um, so, um, yeah, the force and, and totally, I see your, I see your question, Rick. I'll get to it just a second.

Um, so when I practice my, when I do my Jor Chu practice, it's like 200 verses long and it's got many different sections. So, um, I take the, the, the practice itself. Um, yeah, you know what, uh, Isabel, I can send it to you.

Um, I'll tell you what, did you get my, um, did you get my email, um, above? If not, I can write it down here again. Um, okay, cool.

Yeah, just send me an email and tell me that you need the, um, you need a copy and I can send you a PDF, okay? Um, and you can use it. It should be on the knowledge base along with teaching.

He gave teaching, I can't remember which one it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, um, back in 2013, I think we, that's about right.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Um, yeah, totally. If you guys, yeah, I can send it to you directly.

Um, it's, it's so beautiful. I, I really love it. Um, and I really do.

I, I try to do it every morning. Um, um, it's, it's a, it's really, really beautiful. Um, you guys will enjoy it, but to get back on topic, um, the George Chu has many, many sections to it.

Um, and so you're kind of, your mind is moving between many different objects, but the idea is that you take the whole prayer itself, um, as your meditation object and you try not to let your mind move off of, you know, of the visualization that you're currently doing. Um, so I think the same thing with, um, kind of applies to Maha Mudra as well in that, um, you're learning to watch the mind and you're learning to categorize what your mind is focused on. Um, so you can, you can use the present moment meditation, right.

To figure out whether or not you're, you're being distracted to things in the past or things in the, things in the future. And then you can, you can start to identify what types of meditation, um, like antidotes to correct, you know, whatever problems you're having. Um, so it's just a really good way to look at the mind.

And they say that when you see emptiness for the first time, um, you actually, oh, perfect, perfect. Thank you. That's it, Gina.

Yeah. Um, they said that when you see emptiness for the time, um, you actually perceive the emptiness of your own mind. So, um, that's why I think Maha Mudra is such a great, great way to get into that.

Um, plus it's also a great preparation for the direct perception of, uh, of dependent origination, which like I said, has to happen. So, um, I I'm, I'm an engineer. I studied engineering.

Um, and my mind kind of thinks about how, how you can reverse engineer a process. How, how, how do I reverse engineer Buddhahood, you know, and what are the steps that have to happen? And that's one of the reasons that the Galupa path, you know, that's one of the reasons that I find myself particularly attracted to this path, um, is because it's all very meticulous and laid out and it's all graduated.

And, and I can, I know exactly where I am within the process. Um, and that allows me to kind of, to move up a series of levels and steps. Um, so, um, that's Chi Chedrak in a nutshell.

Um, I mean, I could obviously talk about, um, members and members of a set and members of a group, right? Um, we could go into, and I think we will if we start the, um, the study group, um, the Dura study group. Um, what we'll do is we'll go in to talk about, well, what is a, what does it, you know, what is, what is, what is the definition of a member of a set?

What is the definition of a group? Um, and what does it take? Or can you have a group of groups?

Can you have, you know, all of these things are more technical and they help kind of reinforce a lot of the ideas. And it's very beautiful because if you bathe your mind in all the technicality, um, you find that you just start having these very beautiful kind of realizations regarding it. Um, so yeah, it, it might, it might be a little bit, um, I might, I might, I might not have given the most clear presentation.

Um, but, um, I'm more than happy to, to try to clear anything up. If, if you guys, uh, if you guys have any questions about anything I've said so far, because I know there was a lot in there and I even knew as I was saying it, that it wasn't the most clear presentation. Um, but it's, it, you know, the thing is, is about a lot of these concepts is that I can't, I can't necessarily tell you, um, I can't, you know, I, you have to think about it yourself in order to really make the connections.

Like you've got to meditate on it. Um, uh, so it might seem like I was making connections and I wasn't giving detail of why they were connected. Um, but a lot of that comes from really, um, thinking about it yourself, you know, um, and you'll start to see the connections.

They'll start to pop out to you. Um, but I'm totally here to help too. And, you know, if, um, if you want some, you know, if you want me to keep throwing stuff at you, um, you want to keep asking questions.

Um, yeah, but just asking like, what is Chi Chedrak? There's like, we really could spend like a long time talking about that. There's a lot of different things to talk about.

Um, yeah, but, uh, you know, really, if you really want to study Chi Chedrak, um, yeah, we can totally go really, really deep into it. And I can, I can spend a lot of time talking about each one of the things that I was, I brought up, um, which will kind of make things a little bit more clear. And especially if you guys want to do a study group of some sort, I'd be more than happy to do that because that's honestly, that's, that type of forum is much more, um, caters much more to talking about, um, concepts that are difficult to grasp.

Um, it's kind of hard to, to go really, really deep into Chi Chedrak, um, you know, in 20 minutes. Um, but I gave you guys a lot of, a lot of things to think about, I think, you know, so really take away, right? Uh, Chi Chedrak should prepare you to have the direct perception of sublime permanence, which should prepare you to have the direct perception of dependent origination, which should prepare you to have the direct perception of emptiness.

And so that's how they're linked. And really you just kind of have to flesh out each one of those points. Love you guys.

Really. I'm so glad you're all here. I appreciate the questions.

Oh yeah, there definitely would be a lot of people who'd be interested in the Chi Chedrak group. Definitely. Um, and maybe that's something we can do in the, um, maybe that's something we can do in the Dura study group is as we're studying the text, um, we can take little side trips and we can go, um, we can go kind of deep into, um, into the different subjects we're, we're talking about.

So, um, oh, people have been asking about groups in general. Oh yeah, totally. Maybe that's something we should all set up, um, the different mixed nuts groups, uh, the different mixed nuts.

Um, you know, yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

[Speaker 2]
If people are into it, because I know a lot of people want to go deeper and there's just isn't the opportunity all the time.

[Speaker 1]
Totally. And you know, and there's also, I, I find really that, you know, for me personally, um, a lot of these things, um, it helps, uh, for me, um, if I can talk about personal stuff that I've kind of wrestled with whenever I started studying the different topics. Um, so like if we're, if we're going to do a, um, if we're going to do a, like a, uh, collected topics or a logic study group, right.

Um, we can kind of, we can kind of go off on these tangents and I can tell you why I think they're really important, you know, um, like what is color and shape, you know, like how does solidity arise, right? Like what is the quality of hardness? Um, I mean, these are all like, they're philosophical questions, but at the same time, um, thinking about them prepares us for, you know, prepares us to understand our world correctly.

Um, and. And other people are looking with the mind of an artist or a poet or, you know, whatever. And so everyone has their own take on it.

And I think it helps to be able to talk to each other about it. Oh, without a doubt. Yeah.

Without a doubt. Totally. Yeah.

Cause I think there's a lot of people that would bring, bring things to the, uh, to the table. Um, like Rick had some, some beautiful insights and I remember having some really good conversations with Rick, um, and in Thailand a couple of years ago. Um, yeah.

So I think it's, it's, it is, it's really beautiful to get a lot of different perspectives. Totally.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Um, well it is nine o'clock. I'm, I'm more than happy to stay if you guys, if you have anything. Um, yeah.

ACI 13 is, um, it's pretty difficult. You know, I wouldn't say it's too difficult. It's just, um, don't get scared.

Don't get scared of it. Um, you know, with ACI 13, you just want to make sure to not go through it too quickly. You know, you want to look at each one of the syllogisms and as, as they're presented in the reading, you just want to sit with each one of them, even if it takes a week or two weeks, just with one syllogism.

And you'll start to find that it's like a piece of candy. And the more you kind of sit with it, the sweeter it will taste. Uh, and you'll start to get more and more, you'll start to get more and more out of it.

And just when you think you've gotten like, like, Oh, I finally get it. Then, you know, you'll have another realization. So yeah.

Oh, you guys are skipping 13 and going into low tone, huh? Yeah. That's a good one too, man.

I memorized, uh, the eight verses. That's really good, man. All right, guys.

Yeah, totally. Guys. I love you guys.

Thank you for coming. Thank you too. All right.

Well, I'm going to head out if nobody else has, uh, has anything. Hope, uh, hope you got something. Uh, hope, hope you all got something from it.

Okay. See you tomorrow, guys. Good night.

I got to stop the, uh, I got to stop the recording.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, it stops itself.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. When you, when you leave, it'll automatically, because I'm the host. That's right.

Cool.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
All right, guys. Okay. Take care.

Good night. Bye.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.