Классика Алмазного огранщика: Верхний Срединный путь — Великие книги мудрости, занятие 9

[Speaker 1]
So just to review, Nagarjuna's verse is controversial, and it says the meaning of dependence is emptiness, okay, and it's the kind of hyperbole or overstatement that he would do to stir up some trouble, which is more fun for people and they learn more, okay, but then less intelligent people end up quoting it for centuries, taking it literally. Anyway, so if the meaning of dependence is emptiness, then this guy, he kind of wants to talk about the causation at the moment that you go into the direct perception of emptiness. So what's the causation going on there?

You know, the moment before you just came out of Jorlam Chodro, you just saw the pot on the stove, you know, there's other perceptions in between, you have to walk to the temple, blah blah blah, but let's... you know, there's that last moment in which the mind is still in the normal world, and then it blinks over to the mind is in emptiness, and there's this... there's this feeling where the other guy is trying to...

he's trying to deal with Nagarjuna's set about emptiness being the meaning of dependence. Okay, so let's take dependent origination in the sense of the last thought I had before seeing emptiness, and the first thought I had seeing emptiness, you know, there's a dependence there, right? This is the cause for that.

Well, if that's... if emptiness is the meaning of all this, then I guess what you're saying is, my mind blinks out for 20 minutes. My mind just blinks out, okay?

Well, that's what the guy's gonna say next, okay? So, there's a discussion, we're entering a discussion, I just want you to know it's not as irrelevant as it sounds, it ties in to the verse, you know, so when you teach it at Diamond Mountain in Naktapura, or whatever it is, they're each gonna teach their own books, so get ready, get nervous now. It...

there's a question of what... what happens the moment after? You...

what happens in the moment that you enter the direct perception of emptiness? Do you have a state of mind, or do you not have a state of mind? Now there's two schools of thought, right?

First guy comes up and says you do have a state of mind, and it has a nangwa, yeah, implying a positive appearance, not a lack of something, so... so, you got to translate that sensitively, that nangwa, which is up here, nangwa dan chepa, it has an aspect, a positive aspect, okay? Full of something and not lacking something, full of something and not empty of something, you see?

And often times, nang tong, we say nang tong, it's a big tantric expression, no, it's the balance of the world, in that case nang means everything except emptiness, that exists, yeah, the appearance of things as opposed to emptiness, that's a different thing, so, but nang tong is a common opposition, what appears to me, and then the emptiness, okay? So, often times the whole, everything in the universe can be described as what appears to a normal state of mind, and emptiness, so that's how you have to take it here, that's what I'm saying, it's very loaded here, okay? It's very loaded here, and then...

and then, okay, just... and then your sensitivity has to extend to the following, you ready? Gyaltsabje's answer.

Wait, I missed something, I'm sorry, De La Deer, where are you exactly? I'm right here, this nangwa, right here. Oh, I see that, but I...

No, I'm not. Oh, because you put those two paragraphs together... Maybe I did.

Wait, hold that thought, wait, don't go there yet. Now, this is the joke, Gyaltsabje says, if you think that, if you think the mind that just went into the direct perception of emptiness still has a positive aspect to it, you don't have a clue, nangwa, of majjimika. Right, so he's playing.

Nangwa, there's two nangwas here, see? Here's one, and here's the other one. He's like, the great thinking of the Middle Way has never made its appearance in your mind.

Get it? Even a scent of it. Yeah, so good luck, you gotta catch both nangwas.

You have to make the first nangwa sound positive, and you have to make the second nangwa sound like the first nangwa. But it has a completely different meaning. It does.

Good luck. I'm just saying, if you accept this mission...

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
And then he concludes by saying, since you haven't got a clue about majjimika, you're not worth my time. Tu sung jinpa gyur. He doesn't say to disprove what you said, he says, to destroy you.

Okay, you're not... I could destroy you, just such a stupid idea, you know? But, I'm not going to waste my time.

Bepo mi je do. Bepo mi je do. It's not worth my effort.

Okay. Bepo mi je do. That's very gyeltsab.

I hope you don't talk like gyeltsab. Later. Probably you will.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Not me.

[Speaker 1]
Now! Gyeltsab, now we're ready to go on. Mepa chok chepa chak de.

You know, and gyeltsab je is saying, and forget my English there. Okay, because I was trying to figure out what the heck he's talking about, but I'm going to take this out. It's so wrong.

Okay. And then he says, then he says, you know what's really sexy to me? Who?

Gyeltsab je. You know, what's of interest to me is, let's talk about those people who say that... there is no state of mind when you go into the direct perception of emptiness.

That's more... that's something... now, that's worth destroying.

And taking my time. Yeah, because it was a... Yeah, since the time of Kamalashila, since the 8th century, it was bothering people.

Gyeltsab je is writing in the 15th century, 700 years later, but it's still... it was still a problem. Okay.

Yeah. Mepa chok chepa chak de. ne le glung tu gyurpa na chu la chu shakpa dang ma la ma shak gi tsu du yin mepe lo chu yin su gyurpa wo So, probably we...

you could divide this, you know. You could say... you could say it's Gyeltsab je saying, let's look at the viewpoint that says there is no mind at that point.

If you wanted to, you could translate that line as I want to look at how there is no mind.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Meaning the other guy. I think I would... because he said gyurpa chak.

But... up here he said gyur me chepa chakwa. That's definitely Gyeltsab je.

So, I would kind of separate this out and let Gyeltsab je say this. Let's look at those instances. Then...

ne luk means... ne luk means the condition of things. How things are.

How they lay. You see? The system, how they lay.

In English we say, what's the lay of the land? It means what's going on. Okay?

So, ne luk means condition. Okay? But...

in Madhyamika literature it can be a synonym for emptiness.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
The way things are.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, cool.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, you can translate it as the way things are. Because luk means way and ne means to be. Okay?

So, the way things are. When you munda gyurpa it... When you directly experience it, I guess.

Yeah, when it becomes a direct perception. Munda. Okay, when it becomes the object of a direct perception.

Which is only during the... I mean, for the first time it's during the Arya's tonglam, path of seeing. First part of path of seeing.

And here's this very famous, famous... Pouring water into water. Words, yeah.

Chula chushapa. It's like pouring water into water. Okay?

Chula chushapa. Chula chushapa. Or, in your Tibet, what's of more interest is mar la mar chupa.

Butter into butter?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah. Pouring... I've heard that one.

[Speaker 1]
No, they carry butter. Butter is one of the two most important things in Tibet. The first is tea.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
The second is butter, the third is salt. These are the three staples of Tibet. Oh.

Because they're one of the only things you can grow at 15,000 feet. So, anyway, so, to carry around butter, they would carry it around in a sheep's stomach. They would cut open a sheep, they would cure the meat, cure the flesh of the stomach and use it as plastic bags.

[Speaker 2]
Huh.

[Speaker 1]
It was their plastic bags. They last longer. But they store butter in it.

So, you would jam butter in it and then you'd get more butter and jam it in. That's called mar la mar chupa. You're putting butter over butter.

By the way, there's a tampe, or there's an idiom called mar la mar chupa which means rich people getting richer. He's he's he's he's jamming butter on top of this butter. You see?

It means he's getting the rich get rich and the poor get poor. I heard an interview on NPR this morning the guy was saying the only reason to change the Affordable Health Care Act is to get more money into rich people's pockets. That's the only motivation going on.

I don't know if it's true or not but that's mar la mar chupa. Okay. Mahayana Sutra, Yer Mepay that the mind and emptiness are Yer Mepa.

Indivisible.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, they become indivisible.

[Speaker 1]
When he says chu la chu shakpa and then he says mar la mar shakpa is he just saying... Yeah, he's just piling on two similes. It's like pouring water into water or because after you put it into the sheep's stomach and carry it around for a while you can't separate what was the earlier butter or the later butter.

That's the point. It gets mixed together. It's like I made icing for V's cake that you guys destroyed the other day that was half cream cheese and half Greek yogurt.

But after you whip it up who's going to separate them? It means that. That's what it means.

[Speaker 2]
Compounded interest?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, they can't be separated anymore. Okay, okay. Now, therefore the mind becomes emptiness.

That's what the Yer Mepay is saying? No, lo chu ying su churp. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lo means mind. Chu ying is a synonym for emptiness. Ying means the realm.

Yeah. The realm of all things. I like to translate it as the realm of all things.

Ying. Say ying. Ying.

Okay, it's a high tone and it's accented. Ying. And that's a DBY combination.

Ying. By the way, in modern Tibetan it means to have an interest in something. Kola ying yo mare.

He has no interest in this class. Ying me ma. Ying me ma.

It's a weird word. It just means ether or something. I don't know.

But you'll hear it in colloquial Tibetan. Ying yo mare. He has no interest.

He's not interested. That's how you say it. Passion.

Or curiosity. Ying yo mare. He doesn't have it.

Okay. Is that the same word as in Yip Ying's name? I don't know Yip Ying.

[Speaker 2]
Yip Ying. Oh yeah.

[Speaker 1]
No, that's yik. That's a G and not a NG.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
That yik is a very rare word for riches of the earth. Vasu. Vasu.

Okay, anyway, let's go. So, the other guy says, the mind melts into emptiness. Therefore, there is no mind.

So, and then Geshe Jay is saying, if you say, is that what the Shana is there?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Now, I'll give you $50 if you can figure out this sentence. It's not beyond your capacity. Alright.

$50. Now, this is Geshe Jay's reply. I'll give you that much.

Yeah. If you were to say that a mind dissolves into itself, like pouring butter into butter or pouring water into water when you see emptiness directly, hey, you're not allowed to try to throw me off. Oh wait, you're going to see my English there.

Yeah, I noticed that. I don't even see it. Oh no, don't look at it.

You don't get any money if you look at it.

[Speaker 2]
Uh...

[Speaker 1]
Okay, let me start again. No, wait, look up here. Oh, I don't have your...

Okay, good.

[Speaker 2]
Because that big cursor is there.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. There's the sentence we covered. Here's the sentence that you...

I mean, you get like $5... You're getting $5 a syllable. Which is the sentence you want me to get, this one?

This little tiny sentence. And anyone can help you. Anyone can help you.

Anyone in the room can help you. I'll give you a clue on that. It's the same as sung den, linked.

Equivalent. Equivalent. I'll give you that word.

If you say that, then it would be the same as saying that a reason... I'll draw your attention to the instrumental after. I think my money is safe.

Come on, anybody can help him. Wait, no looking at my English. That's cheating.

That's lower. Yeah, it's too low. Danny Grammar case.

It would turn into mind. I almost gave it to you now. By the way, I'm cancelling the bet.

[Speaker 2]
I gave you so many clues.

[Speaker 1]
What would become the mind? I'll kiss you, but you're too far away. Got it?

The guy said, there's no mind after you go into a position of emptiness, because it's like water poured into water, so the mind becomes the emptiness. Well, by the same reasoning, the emptiness would become the mind. And it'd be all mind.

I mean, what's the difference? Got it? You know how long it took me to figure that out?

A long time. No, I was like grumpy for half a day. What the hell is he talking about?

By the way, I'm not suggesting this translation, but I'm going to even erase it. By the same logic, gyu tsen sung, the reason is the same. By the same reasoning, then the emptiness should turn into the mind.

So the de tar na and the gyu tsen sung are redundant? If that's the way it is, de tar na, if that's the way it is, then chu yin, which is emptiness, the realm of is, I used it in Tantric texts, I called it the realm of is, which is not bad. That also, kyang, as well, that as well should turn into the mind.

The reason is the same. The logic is the same. The logic is the same.

Oh, I see, it is redundant in a way, but... What's that? If that's the way it is, the reason is the same.

Yeah, if it's like that. Okay, now let's keep going because I'm tempted to slow down because I don't understand anything exactly, but let's go, okay. jor lam chod chok you know.

Yeah, it's the part of the path of preparation where you... Yeah, fourth part of the path of preparation. You see the pot.

Yeah. He's using it as the last state of...the last moment before emptiness. The state of mind of the last moment before you see emptiness.

Technically, it might be an hour before. Right. But he's just using it as what flows into the emptiness, direct perception of emptiness.

If at the time of jor lam chod chok.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, good.

[Speaker 1]
lo yupa de. That presence of the mind.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, okay.

[Speaker 1]
That presence of the mind, or that having of the mind, right? And then, de la chima, as you flop over in the next moment. So, de la chima means in the next moment.

It becomes the simple fact of things not starting. Ma kye pa tsam. Ma kye pa tsam.

Oh. It becomes the fact that nothing starts. Where is the it becomes coming from?

De la. Yupa de la. Chima.

De la chima. If in the next moment it becomes the fact that nothing starts, which is the Nagarjunian way of saying emptiness. Emptiness.

The state of mind you had the moment before at the end of jor lam. The seeing the pot. Understanding the pot.

Seeing for the first time mental images coming out of your karmic seeds. Yeah. In the next moment, that presence, yupa, becomes a ma kye pa.

Everyone agrees you have a state of mind, everybody agrees you have a state of mind at the last moment of jor lam. And then some people will say, in the next moment it becomes ma kye pa. Yeah.

What's a more correct way to say it? In the next moment you... Dissolve into emptiness?

You perceive ma kye pa directly. Correctly specific. Rang shing gi ma kye pa.

Gi ma kye pa. You see that nothing grows on its own. S?

Yeah, you see that nothing grows on its own. But he's misunderstanding, got it? He's mixing up rang shing gi ma kye pa with ma kye pa, with the mind that sees ma kye pa.

He's mixing up these three things. Rang shing gi ma kye pa, not to start on your own, is emptiness. Okay?

Ma kye pa means nothing starts. And then, I don't know, emptiness. He's mixing them all up.

Oh sorry, the mind which sees that. You see? It's true that in the next moment you see ma kye pa.

But he's saying the mind becomes ma kye pa. Yeah, good. Yeah, he's saying nothing kyes.

Right. That's his misunderstanding. We got kind of a new guy here.

Oh, this is not... No, he's saying kye len na. If you think that's...

if that's what you're saying, is that what you're saying? You know, you're floating along in jor lam, you're seeing the part, you're understanding, you're seeing for the first time images coming out of the karmic seeds in your mind, floating out there onto the pot, and then suddenly what you see is rang shing gi ma kye pa, that things don't grow on their own. Nothing starts on its own.

He didn't say it here.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
The other guy took rang shing gi ma kye pa to be ma kye pa. Nothing starts. Oh, you go right from understanding mental seeds to nothing starts, right?

Well, yeah, in a way, you see that nothing starts. No, no, you go into nothing starts, and then nothing starts, and then there's no mind. Okay, so where are you getting the become from?

Sorry? De la chi ma. In the next moment.

So the become is just implied. I mean, it's just... Yeah, there is...

[Speaker 2]
There's no verb here.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you could say the mind. The mind becomes...

non-growing. Got it?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He's confused the instrument of perception with what you perceive. Okay. Geshe-la, what's a tsam?

Is that...

[Speaker 2]
Nothing. It's all.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. You could almost say nyi. Yeah, non-starting-ness.

The simple fact that... If that's what you're saying, is that what you're saying? Okay.

Is that what you're saying? De nyi. If it is.

Okay. If that's what you say, meypargakpa, there's nothing to stop you. No, be careful.

I mean, this is hard. That's just the meygak. That's just the meygak?

That's a meygak. Be careful, you gotta say a. That's just a plain old meygak.

Uh-huh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The absence of a mind is just a plain old meygak. Uh-huh.

Okay. It's just a thing to be denied. Emptiness is also a meygak.

Absence is also... Emptiness is also an absence of something, but of something which could never exist. Right, right, right.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
It's almost like gaccha. Yeah, no, meygak.

[Speaker 2]
Meygak.

[Speaker 1]
What you're describing is just a meygak. It's a plain old meygak. I mean, stones have no mind.

Right. Stones don't have kyepa, don't have kyepa mind. You know, what you're describing, if that's what you believe, that the fact that there's no mind the next moment, is your version of emptiness, that's just a meygak.

Even if it were true, it's not the absence of a non-existent thing, it's the absence of an existing thing. Right. The mind you had the moment before.

That's just a meygak. Meygak tsam. Meypa gacpa.

That's just a meygak. Okay? Big deal.

No big deal.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
That's not... That... mirung.

Yeah, it's not a suitable thing to... That couldn't qualify as the dön. The object of the realm of Is.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Of the ultimate reality. Of the object when you see emptiness. Okay?

When you see emptiness. Chuyin tong means when you see emptiness. Dön, the object you're focusing on.

Mirung. Come on, that's not even... That doesn't qualify.

[Speaker 2]
This is like sheer emptiness, which is not emptiness.

[Speaker 1]
That doesn't qualify. You know, the lack of a mind is not emptiness. That's just a meygak.

That's just a simple absence of something. A simple absence.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Sometimes they say meygak tsam. Meygak tsam. He stretched it out a little bit.

Okay, got it?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It's very difficult. The wording is very difficult.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And it took me a while. And I... Don't read the English, because I struggled.

When I can't understand something, I try to translate it. And then I throw out the translation later.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Just to clarify the thoughts. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, sure.

[Speaker 1]
That particular thing, I'm comfortable, familiar with.

[Speaker 2]
So, because it's a simple lack as opposed to an understanding, like, based on that lobby?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's a good question.

[Speaker 2]
It's just a lack of mind. It's not... So, it's not suitable to be the object of the mind?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's not a breakthrough. I mean, you could look at a table and see a lack of mind.

[Speaker 2]
You know? That's no big breakthrough. Right.

That's profound what we see already. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and by the way, it's not any old meygak. It's the absence of something that could never exist. That's emptiness.

The thing which is not there is something that could never exist. It's a pan which comes from its own side. A husband who's angry, because...

not because you did anything last week.

[Speaker 2]
But then he would still describe, I mean, we have to assume he'd still describe emptiness as a meygak, but he's...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's correct. Emptiness is a meygak, but not that kind of meygak.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. It's a meyak of something that never could have existed. Yeah, good.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Now it gets worse.

[Speaker 2]
Shit. I figured. It's just been waiting.

Finally something harder. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Now he says, you know what? When you go into the direct perception of emptiness, you still have the state of mind you had when you were at the last moment of the path of preparation.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Now that's his new thing. CI MA MA SKYE ZHING The next moment hasn't come up yet. The next state of mind hasn't started yet.

And the one that was there before, or NGA MA, NGA MA just means the one from before. It doesn't mean negative or female. Okay?

Right. So here CI MA just means the next one. Right.

[Speaker 2]
NGA MA means the previous one.

[Speaker 1]
So, if you say the next one hasn't come up yet, and there's just the one from before, DOD NA, so GCIG PA, I'm reading it here as one of a pair. The one. If you say it's the one and not the other.

[Speaker 2]
Which one?

[Speaker 1]
GCIG PA. GCIG PA, okay. Okay.

The one. The one in a pair. Okay, the one.

Because later he's going to talk about the other. In English we say the one and the other. In Tibetan you say the one and the one.

Right. The earlier one and the later one. It's the one.

Okay. So, apparently the guy switched his story, and he said, yeah, you know, you just keep going with the mind you had before. Okay.

CI MA MA SKYE, the later mind, the later one hasn't come up yet. NGA MA GCIG PA LA DOD, so it's just the one from before. Okay, DOD NA, if you say that, DOD NA YANG, even if you change your story, even if you say that, YANG, that's not DOD NA.

DEN PA.

[Speaker 2]
That's the ultimate reality. MIN GYUR.

[Speaker 1]
It doesn't, oh. Then that mind doesn't become, doesn't go into ultimate reality? Saying that the previous mind is hanging around, and that's not ultimate reality either.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That's not ultimate reality either.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
You still, yeah, okay. I mean, I think I get what he's trying to say.

[Speaker 2]
Would it be exist as? That doesn't exist as ultimate reality?

[Speaker 1]
Well, you could say the fact that the, I'm going to try a different thing here. The fact that the latter one hasn't happened yet is emptiness. The fact that the latter one hasn't started yet is emptiness.

Is what he's saying. Sarcastically saying that? No, I think, what if he's saying that?

I mean, let's take a shot at that. I'm just giving some proposal. Okay.

Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
The latter state of mind, the direct perception of emptiness, the fact that it hasn't started yet is emptiness. Because you said the meaning of dependence is emptiness. Starting from causes.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? So the non-starting of the second state of mind is emptiness. Okay?

He's... He wants to say there's no mind there. Right?

That's his thing. He's got to keep saying there's no mind there. During the direct perception of emptiness, there's no mind there.

Gachi? Yeah, that's his thing. He's like really attached to it.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
So he keeps trying different angles to say there's no mind.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
But then this is Gyeltsabje being like... No, now he's stating the shenlup. He's stating the other guy's position.

The other guy's modified position. Right. Each time he beats him, the guy's going to modify his position.

You know what? It's just the fact that the mind... But...

It's just the fact that the latter one hasn't started yet is emptiness. Okay, got it? That's, come on, that's not ultimate reality.

Correct. That's not din-den-denpa. Why?

Now, this is a tough sentence. If you understand the second part of the sentence, starting with mupo, I think you can reconstruct the first part. What must he be saying if Gyeltsabje answers?

Ready?

[Speaker 2]
Well, one's a function, but that's hard.

[Speaker 1]
No, listen, forget what you think.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
The one thing... The one thing, mupo chikpa, meaning of a pair, right? The one thing...

The one thing has arisen, kye, I'm sorry. It has arisen from the lack of sufficient... Causes and conditions?

I'm sorry. It has arisen from the condition of a lack of causes. It has arisen from the condition of a lack of causes.

It has arisen from a lack of causes. It has come from a ken, a condition, not a cause. We say causes and conditions, right?

What caused the coffee... coffee beans? What was the conditions and espresso machine?

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
So, if the... if the... insufficiency of causes...

Okay? Can that cause something? I didn't get a coffee this morning because the espresso broke.

The machine broke. Okay? The machine is a cause of the coffee.

The machine is the condition. No. The breaking of the machine is conditioned that I didn't have a coffee.

A coffee didn't arise because there was insufficient causes. And that was a condition. Got it?

[Speaker 2]
Can you tell us about lack of causes being a factor or something?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, right. That's all. Yeah, that's all.

That's all he's saying. There is a condition. What's the condition?

There's a lack of causes. That's what the se is? Gyu se means lack of causes?

Oh yeah, the gyu se means the causes wore out. Se means wore out.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, like... when you die, the causes for your life stay. Gyu se.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
So, what's the condition here? The causes wore out. Okay?

For the one. For the one thing. You guys struggle with that because I'm not totally clear myself, as you may notice.

Well, the two... But I think that... the clarity of the second half of the sentence might help with the un-clarity of the first half of the sentence.

Do you think it's correct if I say that the one thing is the previous moment and the other thing is the next moment? Like, one is the mind in the previous moment, the other thing is the mind in the next moment? Well...

Okay, let's go to chi ma ma kye. Okay? Now the ma kye has a different flavor.

Why? Because of the second part of the sentence.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, right.

[Speaker 1]
What happened in the second part of the sentence?

[Speaker 2]
The cause wore out.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and that condition caused something else to start.

[Speaker 2]
Right. Yeah. The condition of their non-mind.

Caused something else to start.

[Speaker 1]
A non-mind. Like a... He didn't say.

Well, he's kind of making...

[Speaker 2]
Well, that's the point.

[Speaker 1]
He's making fun of the guy a little bit, right? Well, it could be the causes for jor lam to go on ran out. Yeah.

And then something else came from that. He's making fun of him by saying... Then the direct perception of emptiness was born from the causes ran out for you to keep thinking about the part of the story.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, how's that? That's what I'm thinking he's saying.

Could be. Like he's saying, oh, so I guess the causes wore out for him to continue being in the path of preparation. So then since there was no more causes, he was just...

Well...

[Speaker 2]
The direct perception of emptiness, which is a nothing state.

[Speaker 1]
A state of mind called tong nam has arisen from the condition of the causes for jor lam wearing out. Right, right, right. But, and that's true.

I believe Gyaltsab Jey will say that's true. But that doesn't qualify as ultimate reality. Okay.

dun dam kyi tenpa min gyur You see, that's in the middle of the sentence.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
What is the one thing in the second?

[Speaker 1]
We don't know. We're not sure. Well, it's probably either the last moment of jor lam or the first moment of tong nam.

Probably. The entity.

[Speaker 2]
Could it be a statement to say that nothing can come to you?

[Speaker 1]
No, not that. No, not this wording.

[Speaker 2]
Could it even be the next moment of like active awareness? Like somehow your mind parks between these two and it's in some ceased state?

[Speaker 1]
No, I think he's saying chikpa chikpa. I think he's saying the one or the other. I think chikpa here means the one or the other.

And don't look at my translation because I was struggling. Okay. I don't have it in my version.

Yeah, so anyway, you got to cook that. Yeah. Chikpa means...

I'm taking it as the one. And the other. And the one.

Yeah, the chikpa being the other. Yeah, so you got to deal with that. This is going to take me all the way.

So, chi ma ma kye means the latter state of mind which I take to be tong lam. Okay. It hasn't come up yet.

Yeah, the first moment of tong lam. The latter state of mind hasn't come up. Okay.

Chi ma ma kye hasn't happened yet.

[Speaker 2]
And the previous state of mind...

[Speaker 1]
It's just the one previous one. Dön na, if you say that's what it is. Okay.

If you say tong lam is the non-growing of the latter mind after... and there's just the previous one. Because that's what he's saying.

There's no state of mind during tong lam. Okay. So you must be saying the latter state of mind, tong lam, doesn't grow.

And there's just that one before it, alone, with no result. With no result. Okay.

And it has come from the condition of the causes for the first one wearing out. Yeah. But that's not dön dön dön pa.

Uh-huh. I don't see how that can be dön dön dön pa. It's just like nothingness.

Yeah. The fact that the second state of mind hasn't arisen is not the absence of a non-existing thing. Uh-huh.

It's the same complaint from gyaltsabje. Yeah, as previously. Yeah.

That doesn't qualify as ultimate reality. Okay? Even if I were to agree that there's no state of mind, that's still not ultimate reality.

Because it's not the absence of something that you thought was there, the Discover card. That's not real. Not a real credit card.

Wow. You deal with it. Cool.

Yeah, I'm sure I'll spend many, many hours.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
But this is, I think I'm sufficient. Now, now, it gets worse. I'm sure.

It gets worse. I think we just keep digging. No, it gets worse.

I'm not even going to show you my, uh... Okay. Well, then, uh, if, if the passing, if the shift from one state of mind to another, caused by the lack of causes to sustain the first state of mind...

Okay, we, we skipped a part. Did we? Yeah, go.

Did we? No.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I'm sorry, okay, okay, okay. Sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, okay, okay. This is, this I'm a little more comfortable with, but not totally comfortable. And don't look into English, okay?

YOD MA NYON BA means its, its existence has not been experienced. Okay? YOD MA NYON BA means its existence has not been experienced.

But it's an idiom in Tibetan. YOD MA NYON means I've never been there. Oh, okay.

Have you been to the Grand Canyon? YOD MA NYON. YOD NYON NAS.

Have you ever experienced that? But it's an idiom in Tibetan for has it ever happened? Okay, so MA NYON means it's literally never experienced, but, but in colloquial Tibetan, YOD MA NYON means I've never been there.

Okay, meaning the going has not been experienced. ROL MA NYON. Okay, so LO NGAR NAS YOD MA NYON BA I take it to be a state of mind that you've never experienced before.

You know, un, un, what do you call it? Unprecedented state of mind. Okay?

DE LTA BU BYED PA MI'I RJUG GO This kind of examination you're doing, Gyaltsabje, about previous states of mind triggering later states of mind, a flow of mind, moment by moment, you know, triggering the next one, the lack of causes for the sustaining of the previous one, actually being a condition for the creation of the next one, that's fine for a normal life. I like it. But we're talking about a state of mind which is unprecedented.

In countless lifetimes, you have never experienced. This is NGAR NAS YOD MA NYON BA It's never been. It doesn't follow the same rules.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
I think that's what he's saying.

[Speaker 2]
Is it Pikachu?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's the other guy. MI'I RJUG GO ZHES NA BYED PA MI'I RJUG GO means you can't examine it the way you're used to. Right, right.

We're talking about a state of mind which is unique. YOD MA NYONG It has never, you have never had it in countless lifetimes, billions upon billions of years, you have never had it. You can't apply normal logic to this state of mind.

You can't think about the wearing out of the previous state of mind due to lack, the condition of lack of sufficient causes, somehow triggering the next state. No, come on. This is a different thing.

[Speaker 2]
These are all totally still arguments here.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Now this is a different thing. Sure.

[Speaker 2]
This is a unique.

[Speaker 1]
He's saying all that in the day, basically. DE DAG BU'I PHYED PA is like, that day is kind of like states of mind that discontinue because of a lack of...

[Speaker 2]
YOD MA NYONG All these different reasons. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, now...

[Speaker 2]
Sufficient causes, I think.

[Speaker 1]
Now I'll tell you what I think Gyatsobje is saying, and you know, it's all... I figure my guess at this age with my training is probably as good as you're going to get.

[Speaker 2]
No, seriously.

[Speaker 1]
I was thinking about it, you know. I don't think anyone's going to come up with anything better. I mean, if you guys work really hard on it together, you might.

Okay. But this is my take on it. So, MI GYI GAR BA Okay?

MI GYI GAR BA MI GYI GAR BA This is an idiom. GAR BA means to isolate, or to set... to set in a special place.

Like, MI GYI GAR BA means, if I say, Adam, you know, you sit right here. You know, I'm... setting him apart.

It means setting him apart. Okay? So, Gyatsobje says, well, what...

and it kind of goes with his previous statement of... what else did he say like that? Oh, in that case, the emptiness should become the mind.

Same logic. Okay, he's on this rikpa-gotsung role. Rikpa-gotsung means equal logic.

By equal logic, you know, the mind should turn into... I'm sorry, the emptiness should turn into mind, and it should be all mind here and no emptiness. Okay?

It's the same thing. Same logic. Now he's saying, okay, then this applies to every thought a normal person has.

Because they haven't experienced the next one either.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
It's also unique. Okay, if you decide to go to the bathroom after this class, and you didn't have that thought during the class, because you didn't have to go yet, well, that's also a unique state of mind. Why are you...

why are you setting apart Ayas?

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Why are you setting apart Ayas? Everybody's next thing is something they've never experienced. Okay?

That's great.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
That was cool.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, Gyatsobje's like, well then, sosokyewos. Normal people's next thought. I have to go to the bathroom.

But that must be the direct perception of emptiness. Why? Oh, it's an experience they've never had before.

You know, they haven't had that thought before. Why are you setting aside Ayas? Why are you focusing on the bridge between the last moment of jorlam and the first moment of tonglam?

Yeah. Oh, it's a unique experience. You can't describe it.

Okay, then if you decide to go to the bathroom, you can't describe it. Well, why? Because it's the next unexperienced thing of everybody.

Lo meypa is here, is what you're saying? Lo meypa is like a... They must also go into a state of no mind the next moment.

Oh.

[Speaker 2]
At every moment. Because it's a new thing.

[Speaker 1]
Because it's a new thing for them. It's unique. Okay.

Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah.

State of...

[Speaker 2]
Then...

[Speaker 1]
parkpa ba shik means only Ayas. Parkpa ba shik means only Ayas. Miki karawa gupa me, there's no...

there's no reason. There's no reason why you should treat Ayas differently. That's what I was looking for.

There's no reason why you should treat Ayas differently. Yeah. Miki karawa means to...

set aside. Special case. It's called to make a special case.

So treat differently would be fine? Make a special case would be more accurate, I think. There's no reason to make a special case out of Ayas.

Because it applies to normal people too.

[Speaker 2]
Cool.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, oh man.

[Speaker 2]
Wow.

[Speaker 1]
And that's kind of the same kind of logic he used with the mind turning into emptiness. In the mind, emptiness turning into the mind.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It's rikpa gotsung.

[Speaker 2]
Rikpa gotsung means... Equivalent logic. Yeah.

Yeah. It's the same thing.

[Speaker 1]
It's the same thing. Okay, I can tell you the wording. What happens next?

[Speaker 2]
Stanley. Or...

[Speaker 1]
Adam. It's Adam. Because we did Stanley yesterday, right?

Yeah. Okay, in his place. Okay, now let's go one more sentence.

SO SOGS SKYE... SOGS SKYE LA GNYIS SU SNANG BA'I BLO YOD NA BAR PA'I NYAM YANG GNYIS SNANG DANG BRAL BA'I BLO CI PHYIR MI ZHAG Chew on this, okay? I'll give you all the words.

It's not comfortable for me. SOGS SKYE LA... Okay, GNYIS SNANG.

Say GNYIS SNANG. GNYIS SNANG. GNYIS SNANG.

GNYIS SNANG means... it appears to you one way, but it exists a different way. Okay.

It's illusion. That's the real meaning of Buddhist illusion. It doesn't mean nothing exists and you think it exists.

It doesn't mean that. Things are... This pen is yelling at you, But the reality is it's coming from you.

There's a discrepancy. GNYIS SNANG means the discrepancy. Duality.

People translate it as duality. I think the discrepancy with a capital T might be interesting. I'm just saying it's an interesting translation which would more give the correct feeling of it.

Illusion means a discrepancy between the way something appears and the way it is. GNYIS SNANG means double appearance. Okay.

You might play with translating it as the discrepancy. Okay. Now, according to Buddhism, the only time you don't have the discrepancy is...

during the direct perception of emptiness. The... the person in the audience who came later.

To the magic show. They didn't get the magic powder thrown in their face and they don't see a cow. Even the magician sees a cow.

Okay, that's the Arya after the direct perception of emptiness. Who's the audience? SO SO SKYE BA They are non-Aryas.

Normal people. SO SO is like onomatopoeic. They're SO SO, normal people.

Okay. So... do they have GNYIS SNANG?

Do they have a mind which is caught in the discrepancy? They do. YOD NA If they could have a GNYIS SNANG state of mind, discrepancy state of mind, then NYAM NA ZHIG NA YANG Then even during the direct perception of emptiness, right?

It's not just Samappati in general. It's PHAG PA'I NYAM ZHAG. Then during the Arya's meditation, which always is a code word for the direct perception of emptiness, because obviously they can meditate on SDONG LEN and this is not.

It's PHAG PA'I NYAM ZHAG, but it's not SDONG NYID NGON TSUL DU RTOG PA. NA YANG GNYIS SNANG DANG BRAL BA'I LO Even they have this discrepancy. Oh, I just understood it.

Yay! CI PHYIR MI ZHAG means Why can't you posit? ZHAG here means posit.

ZHOG Present tense. Future tense. Why can't you posit a state of mind of an Arya during the direct perception of emptiness which is free of that discrepancy?

PHRAO PHRAO Free of that. I couldn't understand why Gyaltsabje said that. Now I just got it.

It hinges on LO. Someone tell me why.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, because he's saying there isn't a mind.

[Speaker 1]
Good, yeah. That's a big slap.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Like... Like, why can't you just say... Instead of saying there's no state of mind during the path of seeing, why can't...

If you're describing a non-Arya state of mind as one which still has the discrepancy, when you say still, I mean you're implying some other state of mind. It's a mainga. A state of mind which still has a discrepancy is implying that there's another state of mind that doesn't have the discrepancy.

So what's the problem? Why do you have a problem with that? Why can't he have a state of mind?

[Speaker 2]
Right. Is the goal not to have a mind or like to have one? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
If you accept that the state of mind of a non-Arya is fucked up, then you must be implying there's a state of mind which is not fucked up. Excuse me. But, okay, saying that one guy has a fucked up state of mind is to imply that the other is possible.

Then what's the problem?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Cool. Should we...

We'll stop there, I guess. Wrap up? Yeah.

I got excited because I just understood that one. That line I understood. Okay.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you. Whoa.

[Speaker 1]
But I still... I still feel like we should chew on that, that, you know, those past few sentences. I think we have a...

We're on a... We have a start on it, but I don't think we nailed it. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, we got it. You know, and I'll tell you a thing about translation. Look at it, don't understand it.

Look at it on a different page. Look at it one day, don't understand it. Translate it into something that doesn't make sense.

Then come back to it like four or five days later and suddenly you see it. Then wipe out the translation and write the right one. Okay, but that's the process.

Look, misunderstand. Take a shot, it's wrong. Wait two days, then look at it again.

And don't think... Never think as a translator you're going to understand it the first time. Don't make this mistake.

It's not like translating on the stage, right? Don't ever think... Don't ever expect to understand it the first time.

And don't force yourself to understand it the first time. You know, give it some space. Say, I got to take some space from this.

Then suddenly you come back to it. I translated Vasubandhu's whole commentary, 130 pages. You just finished three.

So far this year. I translated the whole thing, his commentary, The Wheel of Life, because I couldn't understand it, so I translated it into bad, wrong. I translated it wrong so I could understand it.

You see? And then I understood it. And it took me like four months.

Then I went back and, oh, that's what he's saying. So don't expect to understand it the first time. Just go ahead.

Oftentimes it helps to... There's a military strategy where you just jump over the enemy. They have front line.

In the Battle of the Bulge or something, I don't know. They have a front line. You have a front line.

And then you parachute 50 guys in the back and they kill everybody. You know what I mean? Just go jump over.

Skip this part, go to the next part. Translate for a few days, come back. And then from the other side you can shoot everybody.

Okay, like that. That was in World War II. And those guys were on the suicide thing, you know, and they're like...

They parachuted a couple thousand guys behind the Germans. You know? And then they attacked from the wrong way.

You see what I mean? So, that's the strategy. Yeah, jump into the next part and then come back.

It's not a totally satisfying commentary.

[Speaker 2]
Say again?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, Santana Antara. Santana.