Классика Алмазного огранщика: Верхний Срединный путь — Великие книги мудрости, занятие 8

[Speaker 1]
To go where we're going today, we have to review this verse. Nick, you want to review this verse?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, this is by Nagarjuna. The whole sixty verses doesn't exist, but we have quotations of it in other texts, so we're inserting that much Sanskrit. Go.

Yeah, how about Tibetan? Kang dak gi do yu me le, nam par ne shing ni ne pa?

[Speaker 2]
Ne pa.

[Speaker 1]
Ne means barley. Ne means to stay. Te dak gi ni ken gi dun, sab mo mik me nam par to.

To. To. Sab mo mik me nam par to.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, again. Again.

[Speaker 1]
Anything to say? I mean, anyway. Yeah.

So, just remember this verse, because it's a long explanation based on this verse, okay? Those whose minds have gone beyond the idea that things could exist or not, and who no longer stay in that idea, they understand that the essence of... They change it to meaning of cause.

Yeah, they understand that the meaning of cause is the profound truth that there's nothing to see.

[Speaker 2]
I like meaning better too.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so now we're going there, and...

[Speaker 2]
We're covering the one that we turned into a verse, that you realized was a verse.

[Speaker 1]
We finished that one, right? Yeah. Okay, so we're moving on.

That one took a long time, sorry about that. Lo ji tabu shi, no? What's that mean?

Just what kind of mind is it? Yeah, when they say lo in the verse, so you're going to have to block that, right? And it's going to have to be italicized here.

Okay, right? Needs both in italics here, that was my comment. Lo, and then...

So when the verse talks about lo, which is probably manas or mati, let's see what it is. That's the buddhi. Buddhi.

Mind. Awareness, okay? What kind of mind you're talking about?

Oh, it has namban de. It has gone beyond. Where else do we see this verb de?

Niang-en lay de. Nice, gone beyond grief, which is the Tibetan word for nirvana. So, it also means past tense.

In studying verbs, it means past tense, depa. Namban depa, completely gone beyond. Tongwa.

Seeing. Things as... Existence as being existent or nonexistent.

Yeah, and in plain English, in plain English, the extreme of thinking that things exist is you come home, you're tired, your husband attacks you before you say anything, right? So to believe that he's coming this way, in our, in DCI school, which is prasangika, is yupa. That's the extreme of believing he exists.

Meaning, from his own side. And then, meyapa is only 1% frequency of yupa. To believe that he doesn't exist is a philosophical position that you take.

Somebody says he's only coming from your side, and then you think, oh well, then everything's in my head. There is no real husband. It's just a figment of my mind.

That's another extreme. So, the first extreme, everybody has, even insects. The second extreme comes from thinking about a teaching the wrong way.

Oh, if he's coming from me, then I'm the most lonely person in the universe, and I'm just interacting with people that don't really exist. Okay? Those are two extremes.

And we want to go down the middle. Do you think it's okay to translate it as the extremes of existence and non-existence? Sure, I think so.

Ta, right? Ta. Now, there's a study of ta.

There's a whole section devoted to the study of ta. And if you're interested, that discussion centers on, is ta a state of mind, or is ta the idea that that state of mind entertains? Is it the subject state of mind, or is it the object state of mind?

Or the object of that mind? And they kind of decide it's a state of mind. It's not that your husband comes from his own side.

For example, in Utah, it's believing that he comes from his own side, is the ta. So, you know, if you're interested, you can study it someday. According to his text, right?

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, what kind of mind is being described in this verse? It's a state of mind which is staying in the middle, and doesn't focus on either one of these two extremes.

Okay? And... And by the way, there doesn't exist...

Here's u with a different spelling. Okay? With this spelling, it can mean center.

Or here it means middle choice between the two. That's why I don't like... One Buddhist scholar calls Madhyamika centrist philosophy, or something like that.

And it's not the point of a center, it's a middle between two extremes. But here he's used the word for middle, center. Other than these two?

Yeah, there's no other choice. These are pens and pangyal. These are an all-exclusive contradiction.

There's no other choice. Either you exist or you don't exist. There's no other choice.

There's nothing in between. Okay? And...

They hold to that... Oh, sorry. They don't stay in the belief that things is being real.

Yeah, and this belief, shambha, is to be attached. Like, you can be shambha to your house, or your wife, or whatever. Okay?

In traditional Buddhism. But when you add abhi to it, it's a philosophical attachment. You are seeing things that aren't there.

Yeah. A belief, strong belief in... But it means a misinterpretation of an object.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
So get used to abhi shen. Okay? Can I ask you a question?

Yeah. You said, catch the su de nyi. So, is this just as being?

No. No, you can't really catch it here. Oh, did I say that?

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't see things.

They have gone far beyond seeing things as existing in either extreme or something like that.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Is it kind of goes beyond seeing things as existing? Or not existing? Literally, it says as being either one of these extremes.

So, I don't know how you're going to catch it. Don't catch it so clumsily. Okay.

Catch it more smoothly.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Yeah. I don't know, what is long?

[Speaker 1]
Where is it?

[Speaker 2]
Dun and an or?

[Speaker 1]
Neither do they stay in any strong attraction to that. To that yu en me ta. Okay?

They don't stay... Neither do they stay in any strong attraction to that. So, this is to see it, and this is to believe in it, technically.

He's trying to explain why did Nagarjuna use two different words here. Got it. Okay.

tongwa and shenpa. Okay. kang tong na kyen.

Then it says they understand that... They understand that the meaning of emptiness is kyen.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, conditions.

[Speaker 1]
Conditions. Yeah. And then he says, what is it that they realize?

kang tong na. This is a question, rhetorical question. Starts with kang.

So, we should always translate it like that? Right. It's not if here.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
What is it they see? What is it they understand? They understand kyen.

And then this isn't a positive, a commentarial positive. He's giving you a synonym. They understand conditions, which is meaning.

They understand the meaning of dependent origination. They understand the meaning of things occurring in cause and effect. They understand the meaning of things occurring in cause and effect.

Yeah. ten ching doma. Things occurring in dependence.

They understand the meaning of things occurring in dependence. So it's not dependence on causes and effects? No.

OK. It just says they occur in dependence. The meaning of things.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Of how things occur in dependence? Yeah, you see, now, the den just means, he's tricky. It's very complicated.

What do they understand? They understand the meaning of dependence. That is what Nagarjuna here calls, with the single syllable, kyen.

So they understand the meaning of dependence, cause and effect, comma cause and effect or something like that? Comma factors. Comma factors.

Because that happens in one of Nagarjuna's verses too. Yeah, what he's saying, this whole ten ching doma jungway dun, ten ching doma jungwa, is his commentary on the syllable kyen. Because the verse only says kyen.

[Speaker 2]
Conditions.

[Speaker 1]
And that's very Nagarjunian. For the whole word, things occur in dependence upon causes and factors. And you're supposed to understand that that's what he's talking about.

On causes and factors.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And I think by adding the S you'll be covered. Factors. That the world is coming from you can be expressed in a single word.

Factors. With an S. If it were me.

Now, the den is the trouble here. Is it that they perceive the meaning of dependence? Or is it, down here, that they perceive that emptiness is the meaning of dependence?

That's tricky. Okay, I'm just telling you, watch out in this section. He's gonna say the point of dependence is emptiness.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? Alright? He's not just talking about understanding dependence.

He's trying to say, he's trying to overstate it. What is emptiness is dependent origination. Okay?

Which is a hyperbole. It's not technically true. One is an absence, one is a positive thing.

Okay, alright. DE YANG PHYI BU RNAM Now, this is cool because you have Tsongkhapa's regent. His name is the regent.

Gyaltsab.

[Speaker 2]
Gyaltsab.

[Speaker 1]
You have Gyaltsab Je telling you what's the meaning of the word mikme. Which is the first line of Tsongkhapa's mantra. The first word of the first line of Tsongkhapa's mantra.

What is it? It refers to a headstand.

[Speaker 2]
Near alambana.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, near alambana. So, what does unsupported mean? Mikme.

Okay? Love with nothing it sees. Okay.

What does it mean? Okay? Now, here you have a...

I mean, forever after in your life when somebody asks you, what's mikme? You say, well, his own principal student said, this is the meaning of mikme. So, here you have a technical discussion of the word mikme and it's difficult.

Okay? And it's sexy. Which is what I like.

Okay. Chibu nam tapar chebichun. I said afraid.

We don't say, you know, he was made afraid by the ghost in his house. You know, we just say the ghost scared the shit out of him.

[Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?

[Speaker 1]
Making it more... Yeah. My teacher in English class used to take off every time we used a passive form.

And it's much more difficult to use a single active verb in English. It's more difficult to find a single active verb. But my teacher harped on that.

I had her for two years. She's brilliant. And she was trained at University of Chicago.

And she said, use an active verb. Don't keep saying was, was, was. They are scared.

[Speaker 2]
Become afraid?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Or they just are scared? But you don't say that.

You don't say he became afraid of the ghost in his house. Are scared.

[Speaker 2]
Are afraid.

[Speaker 1]
Or the ghost scared him. You see? There's an active verb.

You see? Anyway... It scares.

Okay, understood verb, understood noun. Understood subject. It chepa.

Chepa means it functions to scare. It scares. Right, right.

Because... But it would have to be something like, because this scares? Yeah, you gotta...

Get the pieces and then you make a real sentence. Okay. It scares.

Chepa. Immature beings. I would call it infants.

It means infants. It's derogatory. Compared to an Arya, you are a two-year-old.

It means two-year-old. It literally means... In English, the perfect translation is two-year-old.

You know, the world is inhabited. The government of the United States is run by a two-year-old.

[Speaker 2]
You see?

[Speaker 1]
That gets scary.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
All the central bankers and... The whole world. If they're not Arya, I don't know.

But if they're not, then the world is run by dangerous two-year-olds. Okay? Who don't know anything.

They're playing with matches. You know? So, you gotta have this.

It's gotta feel... More feel. Immature beings like...

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That means your husband when he wants to do something.

Okay. All right. Chepa nam.

De nam kyi ting bak... And... So, he's giving two meanings of ming may.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. A, it scares the poop out of...

Infants.

[Speaker 2]
Two-year-olds. Babies.

[Speaker 1]
Two-year-old would be a perfect translation if we had the courage to use it. De nam kyi ting bak mi nubar chen. Ting bak...

They're incapable of fathoming such depth. That's perfect translation. Okay, so don't say I always criticize you.

[Speaker 2]
You're always saying that. Ting...

[Speaker 1]
Ting does mean the depths. And bak means plumbing the depths. I was trying to be cool like you would by saying fathoming because bak is also a measure of depth.

I'm just like a fathomer. Yeah, exactly. It's a perfect translation.

Mi nubar. They're incapable. Therefore, and because of that, the depths...

He must have used that in his root text, in his verse?

[Speaker 2]
Did he use the word... The profound, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so this is blocked. I can smell it. I can smell that he's weaving.

He's inserted a word here. And you can... After a long time of translating, you can feel it.

Oh, this is unnatural. He must have inserted it. Sammo, the depths, means...

An understanding of that depth doesn't just arise by itself? Is it correct? Is the instrumental correct here?

Yeah. You should check the scan, okay? I'm just curious.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
It's probably correct, but anyway. Rangshigi ma kepa nyi ki means due to the fact that things don't go on their own. Due to the fact that things don't go on their own.

[Speaker 2]
Oh. You see what I mean? Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

This one here.

[Speaker 1]
No, this one I'm curious.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
Kepa nyi ki. Which would be yupa, you see? To exist on its own is to have grown by its very nature.

So, rangshigi ma kepa is a synonym here for sammo. It's a positive for sammo. The depths, meaning the fact that things don't grow through any nature of their own.

Okay? And because of that... Like the fact that things don't grow on their own.

Yeah. It's tricky. It's a...

He's glossing sammo. Uh-huh. He's glossing deep.

You okay? You need some water? No, no.

I have. No, I don't. Okay.

Ma kepa nyi ki. Uh... Anyway, let's go to minyupa.

They can't focus on objects. Is it unable to see that it's holding to a mistaken object? Yeah.

They can't see that they are making a mistake. Uh-huh. Right?

And there's three versions of that mistake. They either think yupa, things exist as they seem.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Or mepa, if they don't exist as they seem, then they can't exist. At all. Or that there's some kind of pungsumba.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
So, see, u means somewhere between those two.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Somewhere between the two. Created by somebody or something.

But is it... that way between is a good thing, right? That's the middle way?

They can't perceive that that's mistaken. You see? They are incapable of perceiving that that is a mistaken idea.

chen chiyo loke yul tu mik minyupa.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
They can't perceive that that's a mistaken idea. Therefore, they don't perceive. Is it that...

Is it that they don't perceive that u? Or is that u also part of like what's included... It's one of three things they can't see.

Uh-huh. They can't see that the state of mind that either they believe that things exist or that they don't exist or that there's some other possibility. Uh-huh, uh-huh.

They can't perceive that that state of mind is mistaken. Therefore, we say they don't perceive.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh. But that's...

[Speaker 1]
mik me. Yeah. They don't perceive because they don't perceive that they're making a mistake in one of three variations.

Things exist the way they seem, coming this way. Or if they don't come this way, they can't exist or just the world is some figment in my mind or that there's some other choice.

[Speaker 2]
They don't see... Isn't that a third one?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. They don't... They're incapable of perceiving that what those three states of mind think are mistaken objects.

They're incapable of perceiving that what those three states of mind think is mistaken. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Why is it mistaken? Because in actuality, the fact that things are deep, meaning the fact that they... the very fact, this nyi, right?

The very fact that they cannot grow by some nature of their own means that that state of mind has a mistaken... is mistaken towards at something. Okay?

It's difficult. It's difficult.

[Speaker 2]
It is difficult. Okay?

[Speaker 1]
They are unable to plumb the depths. Therefore... By the way, you know, Russian class, cut it into sentences.

Cut it into simple sentences. When I can't understand a paragraph, I cut it into four-word chunks and I just make stupid little sentences. Then later I tie them up.

So, okay. There's something they can't... is too deep for them.

What? It's deep. What?

Nothing can grow of its own accord. Okay? That fact, this nyi makes it a fact.

Okay? That fact, nus, ta in Sanskrit, shunya ta, emptiness, the nus, okay? That fact that things are that way means that if you think things exist or you think that they don't exist or you think there's some third choice, then that idea is holding, is looking at a mistaken object.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. So the third choice...

[Speaker 1]
And when we say they don't look at that, they... means they can't get it. They can't see that it's mistaken.

Or... you can say they're afraid to think about it. They don't...

they don't learn. So, ming me. Like...

Whoa, that's too much for me. Even that sentence is too... You know, they're like this.

You know? They got this... They got this thing going on.

So, when we say ming me, we mean either it repulses them, they're afraid to think about it. You know, don't take me there. Don't...

I don't want to think about the possibility that my husband is coming for me when he yells at me. It's... I don't...

I just... I don't want to go there. The flow...

Either... they're called people who can't focus, either because they're afraid of looking at that, or... and then this whole second part of the sentence.

Okay? Or... that they fail to see that believing anything else is mistaken.

Since... gyi... things exist...

through emptiness.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Through emptiness. Gyi...

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Meaning that they don't grow on their own. Your husband doesn't yell for nothing. Something happened to create it.

Okay? Got it? And that's profound.

I'm just confused about that u there. It's not... It's not referring to the middle way, right?

No, no, no. Different spelling. S.

It means a third possibility between these two. Which is still incorrect. The middle way?

Yeah. Meaning an incorrect view between the two. Weird, because...

Yeah, it's other choices, like the world was made by God. That would be between these two. So, can I translate it as something like...

or another... or some other incorrect view or something like that?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Because he gave you that... back here. See?

He defined it for you. Two paragraphs ago.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, there's no...

[Speaker 1]
Third choice meaning something other than these two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which doesn't exist.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I mean, emptiness is also a third choice, but it's not between the two. Isn't it kind of between the two? It kind of is, but that's not what he's talking about.

Obviously, it's not what he's talking about. He's talking about other lousy viewpoints between these two.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Like it's not true that some things are self-existent and some things don't.

[Speaker 1]
And it's interesting he went there, because that means... I mean, if I were in the debate ground, I'd say, well, then that's not a pentabunga. You and me is not all the choices there are.

Okay. Because Gyaltsabje says there's a third.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
You could go to...

[Speaker 2]
Right, right.

[Speaker 1]
You and me are not all-inclusive opposites. Right. Okay.

Like changing or unchanging covers everything in the universe. Right. But now you say, Gyaltsabje, you say there's something in between.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
But since he's talking about silly viewpoints in between, there could be anything, because they all non-exist.

[Speaker 2]
No, he said it right after saying that there's nothing in between.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. A paragraph ago.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's what's so confusing. Yeah, it's hard.

[Speaker 2]
So this may be sort of...

[Speaker 1]
And he... Therefore, su pays migme.

[Speaker 2]
Migme. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Therefore, migme. So, it's huge, huge divisions in his description of migme. One, it's too much for me to think about.

Looking away, it freaks me out. This talk means freaks me out. Really.

Really. Literally, it means to be frightened or something. But it means it just freaks them out.

They don't want to think about it. Or, they misunderstand. Okay?

That's hard. He's hard.

[Speaker 2]
Gyaltsabje is hard. It's cool, though.

[Speaker 1]
It's... Most cool things are hard.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, anyway. It's pretty confusing.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. So this is not the migme of Tsongkhapa? No, it's not.

Sure it is. No. Sure, you could describe it as something that Shibas are afraid to look at, which, by implication, means that those who have seen emptiness are happy to look at it.

That's a couple steps of... It's a little bit of a jump there, but... Okay.

I'm troubled with this sentence. This morning I had a different idea of it. I wanted...

I'm going to take you back to the verse, okay? Way back... here.

Okay? He said, these guys who have lo... These guys who have a mind?

Yeah, meaning intelligence. These guys who have intelligence see that the meaning... I think I've been misstating it this morning.

I want to clarify. They see that the meaning of dependence is emptiness. Right?

A, B, C, S. The Daini grammar case, right? We elected Nick as president.

Nick, president as we elected. In Tibetan, syntax is that. Person who is something, the thing they are, as...

and the verb. Nick, president as we elected is the syntax. Syntax.

Here... dependent origination.

[Speaker 2]
I'm sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I'm confused. Yeah, I'm sorry. Emptiness is the meaning of dependent origination.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
They see... verb... subject of the sentence.

These guys whose minds have gone beyond is and isn't.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
These guys talk. They realize. They see...

that the meaning of dependence is emptiness or you can say don't see anything. Okay? You got to get the syntax right.

They see that the meaning of dependent origination is emptiness. Or you could say they don't see anything. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Gosh, that's a stupid question. But the...

How does the ni work after an agentic particle? Like that... deitaki ni can...

[Speaker 1]
Ni is a filler to make his verse. Great. You can be sure there was nothing in the Sanskrit.

Water. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Let's go look.

[Speaker 1]
There's an instrumental and then... Yeah, there's nothing there.

[Speaker 2]
There's nothing there for ni.

[Speaker 1]
He just needed a meter. He needed to make meter. Yeah, yeah.

It kind of repeats the same thing as the sap. No, I wanted to say something important here. What was it?

Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
We'll crunch our brains hypertexting. God, what the hell is the ni?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, there's two ways of reading the third and fourth line.

Okay? And if you're guilt-subject, you're very sensitive to it. And I can barely grasp it.

But here we go. You can say they are perceiving the point of dependence which is emptiness. And you're translating sabmo as being emptiness.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Sabmo mingme. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Or... or... you can say that...

a Daini grammar case here. They can... they see that emptiness is the meaning of dependence.

It's different. You can say I perceive the emptiness of the cup. Or you can say I perceive that the real cup is emptiness.

Different things. Very different, very radical. Guess what Nagarjuna, you know, he's gonna hyperbole, exaggeration, intended exaggeration, purposeful exaggeration.

In English we call hyperbole. He's gonna purposely exaggerate. It's like Trump all over again.

[Speaker 2]
You know?

[Speaker 1]
All Muslims are bad. You see? It's all...

too much. It's ignorant. Right?

So... this kind of... there's two choices of what he's saying here.

Either he's saying they perceive emptiness... which is the meaning of dependent origination. Or they perceive that emptiness is the meaning of dependent origination.

It's not here. It's understood. It's understood.

Now, Gyaltsabje in his commentary gets to a point down here. Yeah, this line drives me crazy. Or you can say I think he's being very radical.

Or you can say that they have grasped that the very meaning of dependence is emptiness. Dependence means emptiness. You see?

yang na. So, yang na means alternate reading. Or you can say...

Okay? Or you can say... So you have to make it clear that it's...

Or you can say... You can... jar means...

add. Jar means to add or to apply. Jarzi is glue.

Liquid jar is glue. It's the word for glue. Jorlam is the path that takes you to tonglam.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Yoga. It's yoga. Yuj.

Okay? So... Or you can...

Or you could... add. You know?

Or you could clarify.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
You could... How do you say that? There's a word in English.

[Speaker 2]
Append? Or clarify?

[Speaker 1]
When you add something to clarify something.

[Speaker 2]
Append.

[Speaker 1]
It's like append. Think about it. You could say that they understand...

that what they understand... is that the very meaning of dependence... is like that meaning emptiness.

Like that, in this case, means... To be as being sammo. As being the sammo.

Nyi. Right? Sammoness.

Nyi. Here. Ness.

T-I-O-N. The T-A in Sanskrit became T-I-O-N in English. Exaggeration.

Shunyata. Lange. Became T-I-O-N or N-E-S-S in English.

Okay? Ness. So, they either perceive...

emptiness of dependence... or they perceive that emptiness... is what dependence means.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Just two different things. What was the first one? Emptiness?

They perceive emptiness... as nothing, and just they perceive emptiness. Or...

they perceive that emptiness is the real meaning of dependence. And Nagarjuna and Gyaltsabje... are more likely to go for the second one.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And that's contained in detar. Yeah, detar means like that. Meaning empty of self-existence.

Referring to the previous verse.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He might have said that.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It's tough. It's really tough. I'm pretty confused.

Is it different... to see the emptiness of dependence? Is that different from seeing that emptiness...

is the meaning of dependence?

[Speaker 2]
For sure.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's a different thing. It's a totally different thing. Is it different to see...

the emptiness of the cup? Or to say that the cup is the emptiness? Emptiness is the meaning of cup.

That's... the second one is hyperbole. It's too radical.

Got it? And it's subtle. It's subtle.

The cup is empty is one thing. Emptiness is the cup. Emptiness is cup.

That's a different thing. Oh, yeah. Okay, got it?

So, the second one, he's suggesting that. Yang na. He's giving you...

Yang na means... I'll give you an alternate reading.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
You could... augment... supplement.

That's what I'm looking for. Jar.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
You could supplement the whole thing and say... emptiness is the meaning of dependence.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay. But then is that...

Is that detar is referring to the previous paragraph?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it is. Yeah, detar.

[Speaker 2]
But it's referring to a paragraph which... actually talks about...

[Speaker 1]
Subtle. ...mistaken people. It is, but...

they don't see the samu. Rang shing gi ma kye pa.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Nus.

[Speaker 2]
Brutal. So, detar refers to what was referred to as... being not seen in the previous paragraph.

[Speaker 1]
Right. Yeah. By the chibas.

Brutal. That is really subtle. Yeah, because...

we're talking about the people with low... who do see it. It's the chibas who don't see it.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Got it? He's just making a distinction. It's very deep.

Like, this would be a great class... in Diamond Mountain in October... where are we?

Is it November or October?

[Speaker 2]
It's in October.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I'd like you to teach this in... and you could... challenge people.

Is there a difference... between the emptiness of dependence... and saying that...

emptiness is dependence... or dependence is emptiness? Emptiness is what...

dependence really is.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It's too much. But it... Yeah, but it's sexy.

Okay. We're over the time, by the way. Come on!

Let's do a little bit more. Delan... what do I have to do next?

Another translation class. Okay, Stanley doesn't mind. Delan dir pakpay nyam shak na.

Now... Oh, it's going to get made up. Now we go into a huge, nasty, difficult debate.

Hopefully the rest of the book will be easier. Delan dir... So, delan dir is a subtle way to change the subject.

I think I told you guys before. Delan dir means... well now...

Okay. Okay, delan dir. About that, here.

Okay, about that here. It's like changing the subject. Your husband wants to go to the movies, you want to go to a restaurant.

You're like... You know, on that subject, do you want to go to Hudson's or... or Kuchina?

You know, it's just a... it's a soft change of subject idiom. Delan dir.

Delan dir. Well, since we're on that subject... and by the way, he's going to go into a long thing that's not in the Garjuna at all.

He's like, well, while we're on that... while we're on that, let's... let's examine the question.

CHE PAR BYA With a D and not an S. Let's examine the question of whether, as an Arya sees emptiness directly, they even have any mind or not. While we're on the subject of LO, while we're on the subject of this state of mind that wise people see that either the emptiness of dependence or that dependence is emptiness, while we're on the subject of their special state of mind, let's talk about BLO, B-L-O, LO.

Let's talk about it with regard to a person in direct possession of Arya. Emptiness. Do they even have a mind at that moment?

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Do they even have a mind at that moment? Because it was a big subject of controversy in the 8th century, you know, it was a huge subject of controversy. Does their mind just discontinue for a while?

Which is called DU SHES MED PA'I NYOMS SBYUG You know? The state of meditation with no awareness? Yeah, meditation with no awareness.

With no discrimination. Do they enter some kind of limbo? Do they enter some kind of limbo?

Because many people thought that's what seeing emptiness was. And it's not an easy question. It's not an easy question.

So, LO YOD MED Whether or not. Whether or not it exists. When you contrapose YOD MED it means whether or not.

Okay. Okay. So, it's nothing to do with the extremes of existence and non-existence?

No, no, here it's a different thing.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah, yeah, different subject completely. It was in the last paragraph.

[Speaker 1]
We're going to CHEN PO. We're going to examine the question. He says, you know, while we're on that.

So, I would segue with that. While we're on that. You know, let's examine the question whether or not during an Arya's...

Generally, GNYAM BZHAG means samapatti. Eco-poise is a good translation. Meditative eco-poise.

It's technically... It sounds technical, but it's a good translation. What's the eco-poise normally between?

Yeah, agitation and sleepiness. Sleepiness and thinking about lunch. Samapatti, to balance.

I call it balanced meditation personally. It's balanced between these two extremes. But, when you use the word with regard to an Arya, it always means the direct perception of emptiness.

It changes. So, it's a change of flavor. When you say PAPA in front of it, it no longer means...

The emphasis is no longer that he's not distracted or not sleepy. The emphasis is, he's direct perception. So, when you say PAPA in GNYAM BZHAG, it's not the same as GNYAM BZHAG.

Okay, got it? PAPA in GNYAM BZHAG means the state of meditation of an Arya. Well, they have meditation which is not direct perception of emptiness, because when they come out of direct perception of emptiness, they're still sitting there meditating, and they're still...

When they have bodhicitta experience, that's in meditation, but it's not PAPA in GNYAM BZHAG. It's the GNYAM BZHAG of a PAPA, but it's not PAPA in GNYAM BZHAG. Yeah, okay, that's what I want you to grasp.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Here they're talking direct perception of emptiness. When they say PAPA in GNYAM BZHAG, the deep meditation of an Arya, it doesn't mean the deep meditation of an Arya. It means specifically their direct perception of emptiness.

Okay. ,GANG DAG LOGS KYI LANG NAS, ,DE YANG SNGA BA DAG BYAS PA'O, ,GZHAN MA BA I should have left these two together. But...

Okay, those guys, DE DAG, I'm going to even paste it back up there. I was trying to make it easier for you. ,GANG DAG LOGS KYI LANG NAS, ,DE YANG SNGA BA DAG BYAS PA'O, Those guys, go back from DE DAG.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Those guys who MA BA, Who say? Yeah, those guys who say, quote, if you accept anyone, GANG DAG, anyone who accepts ,BLO YOD That it does exist. Yeah.

Then you'd have to say that it has a SNGA BA. It has an appearance. Yeah, now here SNGA BA is opposed to absence.

It has a presence. Like a positive presence. Yeah, it has a...

But it exists at all. Okay, so the word SNGA BA here is very loaded. Slippery.

It means... No. It means all states of mind must have an object.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
That we accept. That we accept. So do you...

So I'm GZHAN LUG GYUR RANG LUG. Do you believe that Arya and the direct perception of emptiness has a state of mind? Yeah.

Yeah, you do. We don't believe it just goes into limbo. We don't believe the mind is suspended during the direct perception of emptiness.

Right. Well then, the mind must have a positive object.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
That's the implication of SNGA BA. It has to be a positive object. Yeah, SNGA BA implies here a positive object.

It's also GZHAN LUG, and he's about to say those guys are idiots who say that.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
If he has... If his mind is operating in that moment, then it must have a... a bright...

SNGA BA means it must have something appearing to it which is positive. Oh, so SNGA BA is a positive object of your experience. The implication here is that.

That's the... Yeah, now you have to struggle. Literally, SNGA BA means...

You see, it's almost the opposite of an absence.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
You see?

[Speaker 2]
Something must be arising to it. So it's a YUL.

[Speaker 1]
Something must... Something bright and shiny must be in front of it.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Okay? Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Because it's LUG. It's mind. It's a YUL.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Because the definition of mind is the thing that... Yeah, YUL BRJAN.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, YUL BRJAN.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that which has an object is one of the definitions of mind.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So... So does it have some bright shiny thing in front of it? That's what it means here.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Implying a positive thing and not a missing thing. Right.

[Speaker 2]
As opposed to when you see... When you fail to find something.

[Speaker 1]
Some bright shiny thing in front of it. That's what SNGA BA means here. Okay?

Those who claim that... DE DAG U MED CHOG KYI CI TZAM YANG MI SNGA BA A single whiff... CI means whiff.

Oh yeah, right. Of the... Of MA JI MI KA.

Uh-huh. It's not known to them, man.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He uses the same verb. He uses the same word.

[Speaker 2]
Not appearing to them.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it.

[Speaker 2]
No, I get it. Got it? They're not...

Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Even a scent of the path... Even a whiff of the path in the middle way is not appearing to them. Good.

Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
And he's...

[Speaker 1]
He's doing a pun. They don't have a... They don't have a bright shiny whiff of MA JI MI KA.

Okay, got it? Now, how you translate that, you can spend a couple days, you know? I probably will.

But it's got to come out sexy, you know? If you think that an Arya, during the direct perception of emptiness, that if they have a state of mind, then they must have a SNGA BA. You don't have a SNGA BA of a sniff of middle way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And... Uh-oh.

He's really cool. SON YUNG means to tear out. SON YUNG.

That's that rape horn. Yeah, this is... SON GYIN PA is the present tense.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Future tense of that GYIN PA is YUNG.

[Speaker 2]
SON YUNG. SON YUNG BA.

[Speaker 1]
Again, you get this switch between N and NG. Oh, okay. You see what I mean?

Like, len and long. We talked about it. Sometimes you get it.

Yeah, so future tense.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
SON GYIN PA means to rip out from the roots.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
SON YUNG BA means to be ripped out from the roots.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
NE. A position. To be ripped out from the roots.

It's a position. SANGS RGYANG MI RUNG. It's not even worthy to be called a position that I should waste my time destroying.

Okay? BAD PAR MI BYED means that I should make effort to destroy it. It's not worth it.

You know? Tell me that...

[Speaker 2]
Bring it up.

[Speaker 1]
No, he's... I want to learn more about it. Those who say YOD, I'm not going to waste my time.

You know? Those who insist YOD, if they have it, that he has a state of mind, meaning a state of mind that has a shiny, bright shiny object. If by state of mind you mean a state of mind that has a shiny object.

But he doesn't say that, right? He just calls it a state of mind. No, he says NANG BA DANG PHYIR PA, which has a bright shiny object.

I'm not wasting my time on you guys. I'm more interested in Gyanakimbo, who said, no mind. Yeah, and that's the unnamed monk during Kamalashila's time.

And he believed CHI YANG MED.

[Speaker 2]
No mind at all. Nothing at all.

[Speaker 1]
Everything disappears. Yeah, I'm more interested in the Maybe Chok, which is the next... down here, see?

Let's talk about that guy. That's more interesting for me.

[Speaker 2]
You know?

[Speaker 1]
You guys who... you guys who have trouble, you guys who say he's got to have a bright shiny object in front of his mind, I'm not... you're not worth my time.

[Speaker 2]
Let's go to this other guy. He's more interesting.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, he's more interesting, this guy who says no state of mind during the direct perception emptiness. Now that's more interesting. And he spends a long time on that guy.

Yeah, we should go on. But it's hard, I mean, I sit there in the coffee shop with Mr. Ben and without drinking his coffee, I would never get this far. I just look at it for ten minutes, and then he says, have a sip of coffee, I drink his coffee, and I'm like, oh, I get it, I get it.

So you've seen his kit.

[Speaker 2]
He likes to grind everybody.

[Speaker 1]
She says thank you. Sashi.

[Speaker 2]
GYI WA DIN GYI ROL KUN SON NAM YESHE TSOGS TSOGS SHING SON NAM YESHE LAS BYUNG BA'I DANG BAR KUN NYID DOG PAR SHOG Awesome.

[Speaker 1]
I really want to hang on the yung, okay? You should appreciate the yung. So it's possible, between the future and present tense of a verb, that the suffix letter changes, between N and NG, but the vowel also changes.

Yeah, it was an I, it was a gyiku, and it changed to a shabgyu.

[Speaker 2]
Jin. Apostrophe B-Y-I-N.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yung. And len goes to lung. And the imperative goes to lung.

So you can have three different vowels in the same verb.

[Speaker 2]
Wow.

[Speaker 1]
And you've got to know that.

[Speaker 2]
And this is the passive, to be ripped out.

[Speaker 1]
Future tense.

[Speaker 2]
Future passive?

[Speaker 1]
Which is to be.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, to be, will be.

[Speaker 1]
To be ripped out.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, oh, oh, is, yes, to be ripped out.

[Speaker 1]
It helps that there's no S on it. Will be? If you're trying to decide if it's future or past, if there's no S on it, you can kind of swing towards the future tense.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, and then as opposed to jin, which would be to rip out.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, this is not, this is not even an appropriate point to be ripped out. To be. Future tense.

It's not an appropriate point. It's not something I'm going to waste my time on. Bepa mi jau.

Therefore, I'm not going to even try. Bepa, be-tsun. Tsun, be-tsun is half bepa, half tsundru.

Virya.

[Speaker 2]
I'm not going to use my effort.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to sweat. I'm not going to waste my sweat.

I'm not going to exert myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a waste of time.

We'll say something like, this would be a waste of my time. Now I, but the me-be-tshun, now that's interesting. Yeah.

There's a cliffhanger. Okay. Yay!