Классика Алмазного огранщика: Нижний Срединный путь — Анализ зависимости, занятие 45

[Speaker 1]
ROKKU NAMDAR SHING LA CHUKPA SHOK YIDAM GURU GATNA MANDALA GANHYA YATTA YAM HI CHEN DAN SOG GI CHOK NAM LA CHEN CHUG PA DUR GAT NI GYAM SU JI DAG GI CHEN YIN GI PASEN NAM GI DRO LA PHEN CHIR SANG GI DUR PAR SHOK CHEN DAN SOG GI CHOK NAM LA CHEN CHUG PA DUR GAT NI GYAM SU JI DAG GI CHEN YIN GI PASEN NAM GI DRO LA PHEN CHIR SANG GI DUR PAR SHOK CHEN DAN SOG GI CHOK NAM LA CHEN CHUG PA DUR GAT NI GYAM SU JI DAG GI CHEN YIN GI PASEN NAM GI DRO LA PHEN CHIR SANG GI DUR PAR SHOK So again, wait one minute, okay?

What was that? Okay, I'm going to take over the plane for one minute. This one?

And you're going to explain to Dr. Ereko what's your text about? In Japanese. Come on.

I didn't get to that level yet. Come on, you can do it. For Ereko, for Ereko.

Do simultaneous translation. Really. Okay, here we go.

My book is about will of life. This book is called Will of Life. Basically we talk about the twelve links of the life, from birth to death.

The twelve links are the process from birth to death. Process is not Japanese. Same word.

Actually inside there are six realms of realms and all the other components, but we don't really talk so much in this book. We started from the first link until now we have the tenth link and we actually go very deep inside. Wow.

Cool. Okay, you take the plane. That was impressive.

I hope the translation was close to the English. That's very bad Japanese. It's like primary three school children.

That's okay, but we don't know.

[Speaker 2]
What do you know?

[Speaker 1]
Okay, let's talk more. What is the definition of the initial desire? Oh my God, it's like two pages long.

No, this is easy. There are only three components. Definition of the seventh link.

Yay. Definition of the ninth link.

[Speaker 2]
Yay.

[Speaker 1]
And it's a link between. It's a member. Excluding those three.

Come on, anything. Anything. I bet it's a Mindawa Dupa.

Desire not to be separated. I'm just trying to help you. No, this is the definition.

The wrong look. Oh. Oh.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Oh.

[Speaker 1]
I can just shut up. We don't talk about link number six, three knees, and then link number seven and link number nine starting. Oh, usually we do talk about that.

Yeah, but I don't know. For this link eight, they don't really talk about that. Give us a clue.

Okay. Okay. This function is to arm the press, camera and so on.

Wow. Operating on this stone and the movement of the anterior mind. That is one thing.

Something. Oh yeah, somebody, I think somebody talked about that. Oh nice.

Okay. What is the Tibetan for the phrase to arm the arm? That's a nice question.

What's that verb? Strange verb. Strange verb.

[Speaker 2]
What's it?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Not can, that's trigger, right? No, but it's related to the monks' and nuns' ceremonies.

Ah, yeah. Oh, sow something? Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Sow something.

[Speaker 1]
Sow something. Thirty percent. One third.

Sun Dep.

[Speaker 2]
Sun Dep.

[Speaker 1]
Sun Dep. Sun Dep. I got it.

[Speaker 2]
Nice, Geshe-la. We knew Tibetan's really coming along.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. Sun Dep Chepa. There it is, Sun Dep Chepa.

Yeah, you guys should remember that. Oh, okay. The initial desire, sling number eight in the Wheel of Life, is typically divided into three types.

Yeah. Oh. What are they?

Describe in simple sentence. Jig Tse. Jig Tse.

[Speaker 2]
Tse Tse.

[Speaker 1]
Tse Tse. This is the last moment before you die. Craving, desire, desire for life, well, but that doesn't really mean that.

Destruction, yeah. And what are the, give up that fucking animation.

[Speaker 2]
He said he might want to change that to the initial desire to avoid destruction.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, that's very metal. Destruction. Destruction.

Okay. Destruction. Okay, we got it.

Ooh, nice. Very nice. Picking closely.

Ooh, nice. That's a hard question. What are they?

You had too much time off. The material cause of something? Yeah, like you're taking on the heaps, taking on a herd.

Pumbo, you remember? Yeah, Pumbo, I remember.

[Speaker 2]
And Kessler's money, you remember?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Mostly taking on herds.

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry, I don't remember. It's quite difficult, actually.

[Speaker 2]
He says four, I remember. Desire, existence, existence. So, Baratheon, you remember?

[Speaker 1]
He said Martin, Martin, you remember? Taking on meat. Yeah, they are difficult, actually.

Let's take a look. Let's take a piece. Yeah.

One thing, wrong view. That some exist with morality and with spiritual practices. Oh, this is totally different than what we had.

Yeah. Oh, sorry.

[Speaker 2]
I had good notes.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, that's good. She's got German notes. Very good.

Impossible. Very precise. Very precise.

I love German notes. And what are the German men? Pumbo, you remember?

Pumbo, you remember? Pumbo. Pumbo, you remember?

And then? Dark. Dark.

Dark. Dark. Dark.

[Speaker 2]
Dark. Dark.

[Speaker 1]
Dark. Starling. You're not going to write it in Japanese?

I am. How's your writing, can you write in Japanese? Yeah, of course.

Wow. Now I'm getting jealous. Japanese is much easier than Tibetan.

Oh, really? Yeah, Tibetan, you see, all these... How do I...

That's why I feel not Japanese. Japanese is, we don't have stack up, stack down. Japanese no accent?

No, there is accent. Oh, yeah? Not so much.

Not so much. The smaller is misspelled, it's not stacked right. That's okay.

[Speaker 2]
Second.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, the S should be on top of it.

[Speaker 1]
Ah, okay. Yeah, but next time. Oh, wow.

I don't even know how to do the SMRA properly. There you go. Okay, thank you.

Okay, thank you very much. Yay! That's pretty cool.

We are rock stars. Rock star. Not all these, thanks to Venerable Pong and Dan.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
We had the morning, early morning Zoom call. Really? For me, early.

10 o'clock? No, 6 a.m. Oh, my gosh.

[Speaker 2]
It was like 3 a.m. Arizona time. We were very excited to help him, and we got on the phone, and he suddenly could already read Tibetan.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you, thank you. I watched some videos, he said.

[Speaker 1]
No, but only Tibetan. Okay, now, link ten. We got to link ten, which is generally what?

What's the picture? The pregnant lady. Pregnant lady.

It means your karma is ready. The fertilizer, the sunlight, the water made the karma very fat, like a pregnant lady, and it's about to explode into a new life. And the other guy is going to try a definition.

Okay. So, this definition should be slightly wrong. There should be some small wrong thing here.

Okay, here we go. kuchik yenlak chungyi ki nangtsen du gyur pey gyur. Not ji, not a ji.

du gyur pey selen gyur. gyur pey selen ni ki sutakpe sakje gyur le yenlak chungyi, yenlak chupa si le ki tsen yi serwa Yeah, we call it simpa, right? Number ten.

But he called it si le, which kind of means ripe karma. So, it's the same, but he's making it more clear. That part he did well.

Mayangak. And let's look at some pieces of it. First of all, it's sakje gyur le, impure karma.

Past tense of sundep, it has been armed like a bomb. By sepa and lempa. Yeah, initial desire and so on.

What's the energy that makes bad karma ready to open? Yeah, misunderstanding it. It's very interesting.

If you don't understand negative karma, it makes it strong and ready to open, ready to explode. Okay. And then just here, what's that?

Sugeng knows this one. Yenlak chungyi kyi ngang tsultrim. Yeah, which is one of the twelve links.

It looks like a good definition to me. Like, what's wrong with this definition? Something's wrong with it, okay?

I don't know what. It looks like a pretty good definition. The karma is dirty karma.

It's ready to blow up. The two kinds of misunderstanding it made it ready to blow up. And it's one of the twelve links.

I don't see any problem. It doesn't say what? Oh yeah, it doesn't say in one wheel.

Yeah, that might be it. Let's try. Here we go.

Oops, sorry. Yenlak chungyi kyi ngang tseng du gyur pe, sen pe, su tap len pe, suma tap pe, yenlak chupa, silay chur chen. Tsengyi der tal.

Tal or tal? We're giving our counterexample. Yeah, it should be dal.

Are you telling me? Hundred bucks. It's an early start.

What? Hundred bucks. There's one main point here.

Hundred bucks. If you get the point, I'll give you a hundred bucks. If you're worried, I'll give you fifty.

There's one main point here. Counterexample. Good.

You're halfway there. Hundred bucks. Hundred bucks.

Say it again. Say it again.

[Speaker 2]
In the counterexample he's saying, in the first one he said that it is armed by eight and nine.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, his definition is link two armed by eight and nine.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
And then we gave the counterexample.

[Speaker 2]
And we said it is armed by eight, but it's not armed by nine.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's halfway through the arming. Yeah. Are we saying consider something that is armed by eight and not armed by nine?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah. See?

[Speaker 1]
It's armed by eight, sepa, but it's not armed, ma, by nine, lemba. So, word nailed it. I don't know.

It just got lucky. Got it? So, how do you treat a karma which is halfway armed?

Okay? It's armed by initial desire, but not by strong desire yet. You kind of misunderstand the karma, but you don't misunderstand it completely.

Where do we put that karma? It still gets to be number ten. Okay?

It still gets halfway misunderstood, but you're on the way to misunderstanding it completely. Okay? That's our counterexample.

Oh, you want a microphone? Okay. Okay.

Okay. sundjab de chennyi dertal Are you telling me your definition fits that? Why?

Because that's what you're defining. Why? Because it's what I said it is, which is a bad reason.

Okay, here we go. de yud pay chir te yenlak nyipa nyu che kyi le de la dang dang or se te su tak de chen len te sundab pa yin pay chir Yeah. de yud means what?

This kind of thing exists. Halfway armed karma. Halfway armed karma.

You misunderstand it, but not completely yet. Okay? You're dumb, but not completely dumb.

How's that? But you're on your way. Okay?

So, there does exist a yenlak nyipa. Yeah, no, second. Which is?

Fresh karma is armed by the first ... armed by number eight, but not armed by ... I'm sorry.

He says, link number twos are always armed first by eight, and then after that, de je means after that, okay? De je, after that, they get armed by number nine. Okay?

It's always a two-step process. You start to misunderstand the karma, and then you really misunderstand the karma, and misunderstanding bad karma is equal to twenty dollars? Coffee meditation, twenty bucks.

Yeah. If it's a good karma, you activate it by being happy about it. If it's a bad karma, you activate it by misunderstanding it.

Okay? In two steps. In two steps.

Next karma, you're happy and you misunderstand. You're happy that you misunderstand? Are you misunderstanding you're happy?

I don't know. Okay. Okay.

So the guy says, we say, yeah, oh yeah, no, sorry, we say to him, he says, yeah, I agree. You can't agree. What do you agree to?

There is that.

[Speaker 2]
There is one that is armed by eight, unfortunately, but not armed by nine.

[Speaker 1]
No, this is talking about eight first, and then nine, right? Ah, we got to go back to the Tao. Oh, are you telling me it fits your definition?

Yeah. Because that is my example. Yeah.

I'm sorry. We got to find the Tao. This one, right?

Here, right? Zenny De Tao. Yeah.

Hmm. And then we, this is us also, right? We are telling the guy that number eight first, and then number nine.

Hmm. Are you telling me it fits your definition? Hmm.

Oh, yeah, yeah. He said it had to be armed by both. That was his definition.

And then we gave a split, a two-step, first step of two. Ah, good question. It's as opposed to the jay.

So, first number eight, right? First number eight arms it, and after that, de jay means after that, number nine arms it, okay? Then he said, yeah, your example fits my definition.

And we said, no it doesn't, because we gave a two-step example. And your definition said they both had to be there.

[Speaker 2]
I have a question, but arming was only part of number eight and part of number nine in the definition.

[Speaker 1]
Was it?

[Speaker 2]
Arming is only part of the definition of...

[Speaker 1]
Of number eight and not number nine. Yeah. Send a letter to Khenpo Dargye.

When I don't have an answer, I say send a letter to 500 years ago. Okay, here we go. Next step.

So what did we learn from that argument? It's not simultaneously, but... Nice, yeah, it goes in stages.

Yeah, the triggering goes in stages. So we have pen je kyi le, and we have dzog je kyi le, and we have duk je kyi le, okay? So what's pen je kyi le?

Throws your next life. Then what's dzog je kyi le? Finishes the details.

This is also called finishing karma, or accomplishing karma. I don't know if it's the same as dzog je. Okay, let's see.

Let's see where he's going with this. This guy said, if something is A and B, shi tun, if something is both a finalizer and a karma, it must be finalizing karma. If something is both a finalizer and a karma, it must be finalizing karma.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
I don't think we've had dzog je kyi le yet. And I'm not sure if it's the same as dzog je kyi le. Let's see.

So what's the principle of dzog je and pen je? What's the famous metaphor? Michelangelo and the Sistine Chapel.

First he outlines it, which is, throws your next life, and then the assistant comes and paints in all the details, when you meet your wife, how you have your first pizza, and all the other important milestones. Okay. So we're going to take as our counterexample.

Here we go. Yeah, are you telling me the second link, which is fresh karma, is a finishing karma? Because it's a finisher, and it's a karma.

Okay? Are you telling me it's finishing karma because it's a finisher, and it's a karma? Now we have to prove those two points.

Okay? Go to, let's read this one. Dambod...

Now, yeah, we believe it. Dambodartha? Yeah, so what we learned just now is that if it's a throwing karma, if it throws your next life, it must be a finisher.

It does something. It makes something happen. Makes something happener?

What? It throws your next life. Okay.

Well, now we have to prove it's a karma. Oh, we don't do that. I guess we just go straight to that.

Go ahead. Kyapte? Yeah.

He said, just because it's a karma that throws your next life doesn't mean it accomplishes something. Just because it's a karma which throws your next life doesn't mean it's an accomplisher. And we say, yes it does, because if something is a life-throwing karma, pen chek yin na, yang si ching me pungpo chik kye pa'i kya pa'i che, it creates...

And I would read this as the heaps, but we got to think about it. Yeah, I believe that. A set of heaps.

I would read it as a set of heaps. It creates a set of heaps. Because it's biskyed, which is the D, which is the active form, right?

Creates something. Not birth. Create.

See? See the difference? Birth is passive, create is active.

Because it creates, it droops. Yeah, because it creates, it accomplishes. Okay, got it?

Uh... Then if you agree that the second link is finishing karma because it's karma and it finishes, okay? If you agree that the second link is finishing karma because it finishes and...

Karma. Döner. No, it's not finishing karma because it's...

projecting karma. So it sounds like his finishing karma here is similar to dzogche kyi le. The detail painter karma that paints the events of your life as opposed to the pen je kyi le which throws your next life in general.

Okay? Cool? So how do we define dzogche kyi le?

Here it must be finishing. I think we have to say finishing. Although normally that's dzogche kyi le.

Okay, so it sounds like he's using it the same way. And don't think that just because it's finishing... Don't think that everything that finishes something is finishing karma.

Yeah, okay? Alright. Here we go, next one.

... Thirty dollars. I'm in a generous mood today because I don't have to give a teaching.

Thakur's giving a teaching. So I get to relax in his class. ...

Okay, not bad so far. But I think the car is stuck. ...

Let me see. You're saying it's not possible, right? Yeah, say it more clearly.

[Speaker 2]
It's not possible that those two are separated par chö, par chö into two separate lives.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, here's par chö. Par chö means an obstacle, right? Here's a verb, but it's separated by a bunch of syllables so you miss it.

Par chö is a verb here.

[Speaker 2]
Par chö. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So link ten is the karma which is ready to blow up. Link eleven is the karma blew up into a new birth. And this other guy says it's not possible to have other lifetimes in between those two.

Once the karma gets fat and it's ready to explode, you must go to the next link, eleven, rebirth. And it's not possible that you just mess around for a few lives in between. But the other guy said that, which means it's wrong, which is interesting.

Karma is totally charged, totally triggered, what do you call it, armed, by both forms of misunderstanding. It's ready to blow up, and then something else happens for a couple of lives. According to us, it seems.

Let's go see. We're going to take a famous example. I have key gen gyal at my house.

And it's not me. And it's not Phil. Okay.

Theo. Maybe. Yeah, Theo.

Key gen gyal is sipa dangrel thang. Ke wey dangrel ni kyi pa du tse sen kyi chupa ni sipa pao. Good.

His tells are almost perfect. Ni sipa pao. Dam chak.

Seiji is the dam chak expert. Because he's the dam chak expert, and they're not the same. What's dam chak?

A position. Take a position. What's dam chak?

Pledge. Yeah, pledge. So, dam chak tepay che means because your position is correct.

Because your position is correct. But what's our statement? Key gen gyal, old dog with lots of hair, like me and Phil.

Key gen gyal, sipa dangrel, yeah, the tenth link of the old dog, and his rebirth link, between them, it's not possible that seishen par chod. That they can be separated by another lifetime. And then he says, well, why do you say that?

And we say, that's what you said. That's what you said. Now, hopefully we're going to get some clarification.

I don't know. Here we go. Luna, de sipa thang, te nyi ki bardu key gen gyal yi bardo yi se chupay chey te.

Okay. Fifty bucks, but not the regulars. Not Word, not Nick, not Ben, not Gibson.

No Geshe-la. Okay, fifty bucks. Come on, come on.

Bust your brains. We're saying, is it possible something happens between link ten and link eleven? Is it possible something happens between the karma is ready to blow up and you take a rebirth?

Is it possible? Fifty bucks did I say, or twenty? Twenty.

Wait, wait. Yeah, anybody except the mouth. Anybody.

There's a single word here which is going to give you the answer. Nope. By the way, chey chupay, I'll give it to you for free.

Separated by that lifetime. Separated by that life. This is like dorje chupa, diamond cutter.

Separated by this lifetime. But that's not the essential word here. Come on, you guys are asleep or what?

Man, I'm an old dog that just came out of the hospital. You guys are asleep.

[Speaker 2]
Nice, say it again.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, who said bardo? Did you say bardo? Okay, he gets the money.

He gets the money. So he's saying there is a life between those two. What is it?

The bardo. He's counting the bardo as a separate life. He's counting the bardo as a separate life.

So it seems to be rang ruk that between ten and eleven there's always a separate life, which is the seven weeks you spend in the spirit realm after you die and before you're reborn. Maximum seven weeks. No, maximum.

Could be ... No, in the formless realm there's no bardo because you don't have to go anywhere. If you die, you're reborn right here.

Is there always something between ten and eleven? Maybe not for formless realm people. Yeah, maybe that's true.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
We have to look it up. I'm not sure.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Anyway, here we go. Yeah, it is possible because the old ... We're talking old dogs here, not hell realm beings.

There's the bardo between ... Now, question for you, technical question. When you say old mangy dog's bardo, are you talking the bardo after the mangy dog or the bardo which is going into the mangy dog?

Well, that's another possibility. Yeah, normally the word before bardo is what you're going to be, normally. If you say ...

I'm not sure you would say a bardo for a mangy dog or a bardo to be a mangy dog. Normally, I mean there may be exceptions. How can you be an old dog when you're just reborn?

That we have to study. I think Phil came out as an old dog.

[Speaker 2]
I don't know.

[Speaker 1]
Just kidding.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, go.

[Speaker 1]
... ... ...

... ... This is tough.

... The spirit between death and rebirth of the old dog is not a lifetime of the dog. It's not a lifetime of the dog.

Why? Why? Because bardo-wa is not among the trovaric troop.

It's not one of the six kinds of life. Bardos don't get to be counted as one of them. But doesn't that defeat our position?

He said it's impossible to have a tse, a lifetime, between dying and rebirth. Then we said it is possible because you can have a bardo between. And then we said but the bardo is not a lifetime.

It seems like we're contradicting our own position. ... It is us and it's a little bit weird because we're beating ourselves.

We said there is a lifetime. Who said? ...

... ... Yeah, he said it's impossible to have a life between 10 and 11.

We said take the bardo of this old dog. It is between the two. And then somebody said the bardo of an old dog is not a tse.

The tse of a bardo is not a tse. Somebody said the tse of a bardo old dog is not a lifetime of an old dog. ...

... ... ...

Yeah, okay. It sounds like this. We're saying there is a life between.

There is a bardo life. But by the way, it's not a real life. Why?

There's six types of rebirths you can take and it's not one of them. Where is the bardo in the Wheel of Life? Yeah, in the center.

It's in the center. The demons are dragging them down and the lamas are taking them up. So they don't technically count as one of the five or six kinds of rebirths.

And then to prove that bardo spirits are not one of the six forms of life, he quotes ... It should be we, right? Somebody.

Yeah, whoever. Probably us. Please read.

Good. Your tells are almost perfect. So Shintiani does do something well.

Not much, but ...

[Speaker 2]
Okay. ...

[Speaker 1]
... ... ...

... ... What's it mean?

Sipa-parma means bardo beings are not included, dok means included, into the forms of life. The bardo beings are not included into the forms of life. Now if you go searching for this quotation, you won't find it.

Because the actual quote is different. And I went and got it for you for free. Where is that?

By the way, why we have so much in front is, I wanted you to have the page number for your footnote, so we go to the end of it. Semchen Shecha Parsin Min. He misquoted it, or he changed it, okay?

I remember translating it, so I went to my translation and I found the verse number and then I worked backwards. Okay, that was 25, 30 years ago, okay, okay. But what's this one mean?

It's the same, it's the same, but he just misquoted it, which is common in the debate ground. Good, yeah, nice. Spirit beings between death and rebirth, we don't call them Semchen.

They're bardo kind of beings, how's that? Like jelly beans, okay? And I went and got you my translation.

This is my ancient translation that's going to be replaced by Stanley's, and then I don't have to publish it. Okay, the five types of birth, hells and the rest in them. I tried to keep to the verse, I tried to keep to the ...

I wouldn't do it nowadays I think, but it's kind of interesting. It comes out by sounding like code, which is what it is, and then the last line is known as ... these five are known as Semchen beings, but the in-between are not.

Yeah, and there's the verse number. Here's the first Dalai Lama's commentary, okay? Well, how'd we get there?

Oh that's, yeah, yeah, you write to Vasubandhu. He'll probably say, look, it's not my school. I'm just reporting.

I always put the ... I decided in my translation to put the line number of the Tibetan. Divide by four gives you the Sanskrit shloka, so divide by four gives you the Sanskrit, because unfortunately the four line structure breaks down in about one page.

Then it's not four lines anymore. Yeah, this is the root text, yeah. Well, what happens is, you're in the debate ground, you're under pressure, you remember something, and you make up a quotation, and then that spreads like fire through the debate ground, and then in six months everyone's quoting it wrong.

So you can kind of tell when a book was written by a debater, because, yeah, he's just like, I heard this when I was a kid, now what did they say? And then he'll quote it, and I don't think ... I think he knew it was wrong, but he's just paraphrasing, okay?

I don't think he made a mistake. Should we set it apart then? I think you just make a note in the footnote, say this is a debater's version, which is more clear.

It is more clear, yeah. He's clarifying the line, yeah. Thirty bucks.

I'm really in a mood today. I guess it was dinner. Thirty bucks.

Just give me the general idea. You don't have to be precise.

[Speaker 2]
Once again, he's saying it's not possible that there could be ...

[Speaker 1]
Who said? Yeah, the other guy says it's not possible that ... There could be another life in between those two ...

But he says other twice. Oh, other twice, between Bardo and the ... Yeah, if you don't count the Bardo, he got the Muna shopping for his kid.

Yeah, he's taking his kid out for ice cream. Thirty bucks?

[Speaker 2]
No chance of that. I'll take the thirty bucks then.

[Speaker 1]
It's possible your wife will be busy and you guys can go out for ice cream.

[Speaker 2]
You don't give toddlers ice cream if you know it's good for them.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, you don't give them good ice cream. They go nuts. But adults don't.

Okay. Yeah, so the other guy says, okay, I admit this Bardo thing, but I'm talking any other life than a Bardo. See, this means bardo tse le, other than a Bardo life, there's no other life between ten and eleven, which must mean we think there is.

So let's see what our counter ... Between ... Yeah, bardo.

It's tricky because the second bar means Bardo. This bar means Bardo, and this bar means in between.

[Speaker 2]
And there's nothing in between. Well, what about the in between? Exactly.

[Speaker 1]
Nice. I'll buy you ice cream for that.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Then, I'm going to cut it at gong shek because it's too long. Wow, this is ... He was on acid.

Okay. They say, Rtao, it is possible to have a life between ten and eleven which is not the Bardo, because Kigeng Gyalwa takes a birth, has taken a birth, past tense of len, past tense of len, took a birth as the Bardo, and then after that, before he took his kesi, so kesi is another ... Kesi is a word that means rebirth.

Kesi. Kepesipa means a being who is at birth. A being at birth.

Okay. Yeah, parsi, kesi. I don't remember.

What's the last word? Yeah, parsi. I think it is.

Anyway, before he takes birth as a being at birth. Okay, so kesi is an idiom in Tibetan that means a being at birth, okay, as opposed to cisi, of being at death, or parsi, of being in between. So, without him taking a kesi, he's born as a human.

What? As a human, mir kye wa lempa, he takes a birth as a human before he goes into the rebirth that he's supposed to go into, after he takes his Bardo. No, I don't understand.

He dies, he takes a spirit birth, he's headed for a rebirth, but he decides to take a little detour to a human birth in between.

[Speaker 2]
He's not sentient, he can't decide.

[Speaker 1]
I don't know. Kang shik, it means that's only the first part of our reason. Now, here's the second part of our reason.

Wait a minute, I'm going to push this down so you can see the whole thing. Okay. kyi gyen gyalway parsi tu kye wa lempa la, kyi gyen gyalway nam nying kyi pungpo pen che kyi le sokpa ngun tu dro nge pa'i ngu pa'i kye pa'i kyi gyen gyalway parsi tu kye wa lempa la, if the old dog wants to take birth as a Bardo being, then kyi gyen gyalway nam nying kyi pungpo pen che kyi le sokpa ngun tu dro nge pa'i kye pa'i then first he has to collect the karma, sok, which will throw the body and mind which ripens from that karma.

He has to collect karma. If he wants to be born as a Bardo being, first he has to collect the karma to do that. Must.

He must. Good. Ngun tu dro means that karma must proceed.

Precede. Okay. That's weird.

Okay. Here we go. More confusing.

Yeah. The karma, reading backwards, the karma which throws the body and mind which is ripened from karma for an old dog, first it must be setapa by eight and nine. Karun.

Either one or both. Yeah. Very difficult idiom in Tibetan.

And I don't know any translator that gets it right, except for us. And it makes sense, right? Either eight or nine or both.

And when it's setapa, what happens? It becomes nupa tu chen. Yeah.

It becomes very highly potent, very charged, highly charged, activated, ready to blow up. Chen du che, chepa chik gupay che. There has to be some force which takes that karma and activates it to a high point.

And then to prove it, here we go. Chi den na tokwa den na nepe kyang ne sok go. He's quoting Ngun tu.

[Speaker 2]
Probably the Abhidharma. Samuchaya.

[Speaker 1]
There's two famous Samuchayas. Pramana and Abhidharma. Shikshasamuchaya.

Shantideva's other book. Oh, yeah. Collection of the trainings.

Pramana also. Oh, there's a Pramana Samuchaya. Okay.

Anyway, it must be the Abhidharma one, right? Yeah. So I went looking for you.

Here it is. The Abhidharma Samuchaya is considered a mind-only text. It's not in the Abhidharma section of the thing here.

Okay. Yeah. I think it is.

Den na... Where is that? Yeah, where was that?

What was the quotation? Chi den na dokwa. Where did that go?

Chi den na dokwa den na nepe kyang ne sok go. I don't think this is in verse. Chi den na dokwa den na nepe kyang ne sok go.

Okay. Chi den na dokwa den na nepe kyang ne sok go. Yeah, it's not in verse.

It's just stream of consciousness. Okay. Chi den na dokwa.

In any case, something is reversed. Den na nepe, you stay there, and you collect karma. So what's it mean?

How much time I have to stall before I get to it? That's too much time. Maybe we could read it backwards or something.

Let's go back to the argument. Okay. Okay.

When the old dog takes birth as a bardo, there must be first, before that, there must be... There must be before that, rung du dro. Somebody's collecting karma, which will throw that body and mind as a result of karma.

Okay. So even if he wants to be born as a bardo, he's got to make karma for it first. Okay.

That's what it says so far. And that karma which is going to throw his bardo body, he doesn't repeat it. It's got to be armed by eight, nine, or both.

And it must become potent, very potent. Okay. Because Abhidharma Samuccaya says, chi den na dokwa, if you reverse it, it must stay there, and even for that, you must collect karma.

It seems like he's making the point that it can't be considered as a separate birth because it's coming from the same karma that's going to throw forth that life. But what's the dokwa? We need a commentary.

I think we got to go find a commentary. Okay. Let me find it for you and let's go on.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I think we'll cover this next time. Okay. I don't know why he said dokwa.

It may be the bardo is called the reverse. I don't know. Okay.

It may be he's talking about... or the reverse of your life, something like that. Stopped hopelessly here.

Hopelessly here.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
We got to do it next time. I'll look up some commentary. Sastipukhi kushimetho tram nirhavin siddhim dekhen pari sangye shindhum ikde uvayi drokunam dasin majupasho vinam guru radhamandala kam niryatayami ri kevokam sanam yeshe tsam tsok shing sanam yeshe nay chungway dhamma kunyi tovayisho So dying is something everyone has to do.

Everyone has to die. And everyone has to die, and no one tells you anything about it for your whole life. And so this is a special class, I think.

It's a special chance to hear someone talk about what happens to you, because everyone else in the world is pretending it doesn't happen. Okay. Yep.

So at least you're going to go into it with some kind of ... You will remember this debate, right? Okay.

Thank you, Geshe-la.