Классика Алмазного огранщика: Нижний Срединный путь — Анализ зависимости, занятие 20

[Speaker 2]
SANGHE SHINGDUMIKTE GUWAR GYI DROKKUN NAMDAK SHINGLA DRUPAR SHOK KIDAM GURU RATNAMANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI SANGHE CHUDAM SOG GI CHOKNAM LA DANG CHU BAR DU DAK NI DAK SU CHI DAK GI CHUD NYEN GI PE SUNAM GI DROLA PEN CHIR SANGHE DRUPAR SHOK SANGHE CHUDAM SOG GI CHOKNAM LA DANG CHU BAR DU DAK NI DAK SU CHI DAK GI CHUD NYEN GI PE SUNAM GI DROLA PEN CHIR SANGHE DRUPAR SHOK SANGHE CHUDAM SOG GI CHOKNAM LA DANG CHU BAR DU DAK NI DAK SU CHI DAK GI CHUD NYEN GI PE SUNAM GI

[Speaker 1]
DROLA PEN CHIR SANGHE DRUPAR SHOK SANGHE CHUDAM SOG GI CHOKNAM LA DANG CHU BAR DU DAK NI DAK SU CHI DAK GI CHUDAM SOG GI CHOKNAM LA DANG CHU BAR DU DAK NI DAK SU CHI DAK GI CHUDAM SOG GI CHOKNAM LA NGON MONG PA There's a problem here. Can anybody tell me?

There's something delicate here. NGON MONG Why? Mental afflictions?

NGON MONG is not the same as NGON MONG PA Oh, right.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
That's a problem. It's important to not be dharma. So, NGON MONG means negative emotion.

But NGON MONG PA means anything involved with a negative emotion. Klesha and Kleshik. Okay, Kleshik.

I actually finished it yesterday, but it was around 9 o'clock. Okay, so be careful. And it may be important and it may not be important.

Okay. Hang on, I've got some medical report here. Okay.

KUNE LANG is a verb for KUNG LONG. And there's the past tense, okay? Which is motivated by SEM PA.

Any movement of the mind which is motivated by something involved with negative emotion, which is its cause. Now, when he takes the trouble to put the PA here, it may be important for us. We don't know yet.

Okay. Then, this is interesting. The movement of the mind, SEM PA, which is motivated, KUNE LANG, by KI YI.

The BAK CHA of what is involved with. Okay, again, he used the PA here. Of what is involved with negative emotions as its cause.

That's a SAK MEI, KUNE LANG. That's interesting. Yeah, it's kind of weird.

The definition of pure karma is that its cause is the seed for things to do with negative emotions.

[Speaker 2]
You think the SAK MEI is an error?

[Speaker 1]
No, because it's SAK CHE. He's giving both definitions.

[Speaker 2]
Right, right, right.

[Speaker 1]
So, apparently, if it's caused by the BAK CHA, it's clean. Well, yeah. But if it's caused by the, you know, manifest something to do with negative emotions.

That's interesting.

[Speaker 2]
What's the difference between...

[Speaker 1]
Excuse me? Its cause. Its own cause.

So, you could have said due. You know, the cause is blah, blah, blah, but he wants to be more precise. Its corresponding cause.

Its specific cause.

[Speaker 2]
Things motivated by negative emotion-ish stuff.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Then our counterexample. Please read, Mr. Suganya. SAK MEI KYE LEI CHO CHEN.

SUNG JA DANG PO DER THAO. SANG NYID DANG PO DEI CHYE TTE. RANG GYU NYUN MONG TE BAK CHAG KYI KUN NE LANG PE SEM PA.

KANG SIK. Wait, wait, wait. KANG SIK?

KANG SIK. Good. NYUN MONG TE BAK CHAG YIN NA.

RANG GYU NYUN MONG TE KUN NE LANG PE KYAB PE CHYE. KYAB PE CHYE. Okay.

So it's interesting. Our counterexample is let's take pure karma. Pure karma.

But that's kind of weird because it doesn't define pure karma. Yeah. Okay?

But he's going to do something cute. He's going to say, oh, it must be the first thing you're defining here. The first thing you're defining here.

What's the first thing we're defining here?

[Speaker 2]
BAK CHAG. Yeah, dirty karma.

[Speaker 1]
So he's like, this is tenure, sarcastic. What do you call it? Proof by absurdity.

Proof by absurdity.

[Speaker 2]
Absurdity.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, okay. So I guess dirty karma is pure karma. Oh, sorry.

Pure karma line. I guess pure karma is dirty karma, right? Okay.

This is sarcasm. It's like what your wife says to you. Okay.

She doesn't disagree. She just says, yeah, I guess. So I guess pure karma is dirty karma.

Dirty karma. Okay. It must be the first thing you're defining, which was dirty karma.

Why? TENI DANG PO DE'I PHYIR. Because the first definition fits it.

Your definition of dirty good karma happens to fit the second thing, pure good karma. Well, why? Okay.

Because now I understand that dirty good karma is RANG YUD NIRMAL PA'I BHAKTARATI KUNE LAM PASAR MOKSHA. It's a movement of the mind, which is motivated by the deep seeds involved with negative emotions, which act as its cause. Okay.

A. B. Then he makes probably a controversial statement.

Probably his knife is in here. NIRMAL PA'I BHAKTARATI. If something is a seed for what's involved with negative emotions, RANG YUD NIRMAL PA'I KUNE LAM PASAR MOKSHA, it must always be motivated by something which is involved with negative emotions.

Okay. Let's keep going. Don't move.

Don't move, Madhudna. Sorry.

[Speaker 2]
You're not coughing yet.

[Speaker 1]
Let's go slower. Let's take pure good karma. Pure karma.

Pure karma. By the way, which is always good. Let's take pure karma.

Are you telling me that I'm wrong? Why? Because your definition fits it.

Why? Two reasons. Two reasons.

[Speaker 2]
A. Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Karsik is A and B, right? Uh-huh. A.

As its cause, it is a movement of the mind which is motivated by its cause, which is something to do with negative emotions. Sorry, the seed is for something to do with negative emotions. A.

And B. If something is the seed for things involving negative emotions, it must have been motivated by its cause, which has to do with negative emotions. Okay?

Okay. Why? Why?

Because back here, he said that, well, I think what he's saying is, look, here, he's trying to make a distinction, okay? Here, let's drop the have to do because it's so complicated. If it's directly caused by negative emotions, okay, it's dirty good karma.

If it's caused by the seeds for negative emotions, it's pure good karma. Okay? And I think what he's saying here is, look, take pure good karma, it must be dirty good karma.

Why? Because it is motivated by the seeds for negative emotions. Yeah, but that's my definition of clean good karma.

Yeah, and they say, yeah, but what motivates that seed?

[Speaker 2]
Negative emotions. Right. So it is...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's the indirect result of negative emotions because it's coming from the seeds for negative emotions. Because the seeds for negative emotions are planted by negative emotions. Right, sure.

So clean good karma must be dirty good karma, according to you. Right, right.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, I'll say it again.

[Speaker 1]
He wants to try to say there's a difference. If you get, I don't know, let's say you kill somebody, okay? Dirty karma.

Then it's motivated by anger, okay? Then he says, but pure karma is motivated by the seeds for anger. So it's kind of protected from the anger.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay.

[Speaker 1]
And then we say, well then clean good karma must be dirty good karma. Why? Because the seeds are motivated by anger.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. I mean, it's catchy anyway.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Who can understand your husband when he says stupid things? Okay?

Don't try to understand.

[Speaker 2]
You're saying they're dirty good karma? I'm just trying to make it simple. I didn't see good anywhere when you're dirty.

[Speaker 1]
No, dirty can be good or bad. Sorry. Dirty karma.

Yeah, dirty karma can be good dirty karma, bad dirty karma. Bad dirty karma? Good, can it be sarticulate, which is good?

[Speaker 2]
No, is there another word for it?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, black and white. Oh. Is there good, which is sarticulate?

They're bad. What's wrong with that?

[Speaker 2]
It seems like what I was asking you the other day. Well, yeah, there is.

[Speaker 1]
If it's sarticulate, it has to be good. Yeah. But misunderstanding good.

Like people who do good because the church told them to do good, right? And they don't understand it.

[Speaker 2]
If it's sarticulate, right? No, I think sarticulate, Abhidharma at least, has to be wisdom, basically.

[Speaker 1]
Maybe, let's go see.

[Speaker 2]
But we're not in Abhidharma.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Talking about Dubna. If you disagree to the first, okay?

He had a God Sheik, right? A and B. So the guy said, I disagree with the first thing you said, which is that pure good karma is motivated by the seeds for anger, see?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Pure good karma is motivated by the seeds for anger. He said some of it.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
He disagreed with the first one.

[Speaker 2]
Disagreed.

[Speaker 1]
Then what's the problem with him saying that? That was his definition. Yeah.

That was his own definition.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
We didn't say that. He said that. Then we say korsum.

Korsum? Korsum, I like to think of it as a dog chasing their own tail. Right, right.

Korma is three times around. You know, you're biting your own tail. You're...

Just pruning your tail? Yeah. Koti korsum.

In a debate. Koti korsum. Right.

You just proved what you're trying to deny. You're running in circles. You know, you just proved yourself wrong.

Okay? I didn't do anything.

[Speaker 2]
Koti korsum.

[Speaker 1]
You're biting your own tail. Why three? I don't know.

Maybe if you do it three times, I don't know.

[Speaker 2]
You just put back on yourself. You go back on yourself. Why would you do it with three?

Okay. Korsum.

[Speaker 1]
You're biting your own tail. I don't understand that. You're the one who said that.

Why?

[Speaker 2]
Because of the definition.

[Speaker 1]
If it's pure... Korma.

[Speaker 2]
Korma. It has to be cut by the seed.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. I'm not giving you a motion. Yeah.

Okay. So he cannot disagree to the first half because that's his definition.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And then he says, well, then, okay, I agree. I like your... I like your...

I'm sorry. Yeah. Hmm.

This tal, he says, duh. What's that mean?

[Speaker 2]
To what? That it's the definendum. What's the definition?

[Speaker 1]
I agree that pure good karma is caused by bhaktyaks.

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
I agree that sattvikila is sattvikila. Oh. I agree that pure good karma is bhagavata.

Dirty good karma. He can't, but he doesn't know where to go.

[Speaker 2]
He just chased his money all the time. Okay, then I agree, I agree. It's like parole.

[Speaker 1]
Parole would do that. Alright, fine. No, you can't agree.

Why? Sattvikila yunpecha, because it is clean... Yeah, it's pure good karma.

It's pure karma. You can't agree it's dirty karma. It's pure karma.

I just said it was pure karma. It was my chitin. My example is, take pure karma.

Are you telling me it's dirty karma? Why? Does it fit your definition of dirty karma?

Oh. Then I disagree that it fits my definition of dirty karma. Oh, but your definition was blood over.

Oh yeah, okay, it does fit my definition. Then in that case, I agree. It is dirty karma.

It's not dirty karma, it's pure karma. Duh? There's a duh here, you have to put it in the translation.

[Speaker 2]
Duh?

[Speaker 1]
Duh. Okay, please go ahead. Sanyang.

Sanyang. Sanyang.

[Speaker 2]
Low tone.

[Speaker 1]
Sanyang. Sanyang. Satche khile chö chen.

To be dramatic, you draw out the chö chen. Satche khile chö chen.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Come on, you're so stupid, I got to say it slow. Satche khile chö chen. Sunjya kshima dertao.

Dertao. I think it's going to go dertao, but yeah. Yeah, dertao.

Still chö chen, right? Sunjya kshima dertao. Rang yu nyonmong pey kune, rang pa kang sik.

Nyonmong yin na, rang yi yul. Rang yi yul kyur pey, nyonmong pey, bak chak ki. Wang yi sak pey kyap pey chö.

Sak pey. Sak pey kyap pey chö. Sak pey kyap pey chö.

Good. What's happening now? Okay, so first he said, first he said, okay, well let's take clean good karma.

It must be dirty good karma. It must be dirty karma. And then we went through that.

Now he's, now he's saying, oh, well then let's take dirty karma. It must be clean good karma. Shenyang.

Shenyang is usually a different argument. So, Shenyang is a big break in an argument. They're usually going a totally different thing.

Okay. So Shenyang is more, you know, not only that, Shenyang is like not only that, let's take dirty karma. It must be the second thing you were defining.

What's the second thing he was defining? Just the clean. Clean, yeah, clean karma.

So dirty karma must be clean karma.

[Speaker 2]
Why?

[Speaker 1]
Because it fits the second definition.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Basically, it's created by the seeds. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
That's cool.

[Speaker 1]
Then he says, why?

[Speaker 2]
Why?

[Speaker 1]
Well, for two reasons. Number one, it is motivated by negative emotions. And two, it is established, shot by force of, okay, this doesn't mean power necessarily, of its seeds, of the seeds of negative emotions which act as its cause.

Ranggit-gyopo means which act as its cause. Ranggit-gyopo? Gyopo means which act as its cause.

Called which act as its cause. Yeah. There's the DENY, there's Utpala's grammar case.

How do you spell that? DENY D-E-N-Y-I-D Oh. Like suchness.

Suchness. Touch that. You can call me DENY.

Okay. Hi, DENY.

[Speaker 2]
DENY.

[Speaker 1]
Just that. Suchness. DENY.

He has DENYs which are different. He's got Sankhya DENYs. Tatvas, right?

Subtle elements. Okay. Anyway, so I agree, it was, so let's take dirty karma.

The point is, dirty karma is also motivated by those seeds. By those seeds. Okay.

Which are its cause. The seeds which are its cause. Now, Wangyishakpa, he didn't really say motivated.

You see, he switched verbs.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, no, shakpa means established. This is the tastans of jok. Jok meaning to establish.

Okay, so it's not, he's kind of, yeah, he's kind of not been too tight here. He didn't say kunilam. He didn't say it's motivated by the seeds.

See, in the guy's definition, where was he? Kunilam. In the guy's definition, pure karma had to be motivated by the seeds.

Okay? Had to be motivated by the seeds. But we changed the verb.

Are established by the seeds. Established. Oh, okay.

Okay, when it's not really fair. Who's being unfair? We are.

[Speaker 2]
But you're saying it's motivated by negative emotions, by the power of the seeds. the power is providing the negative emotions which provide the motivation, right?

[Speaker 1]
Well, this shakpa's jokpa is more like philosophically it's established. It doesn't mean they produce the seeds or something like that. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. So if you disagree to the first part of our reason, right?

Here's a two-part reason. Kashi. Before it is A.

After it is B. Okay? So, and the reason starts here.

It is motivated by, I'm going to say simply, for simplicity, I'm going to say negative emotions. Technically, it's everything, things involving negative emotions. You could get a lot of things there.

It is... Okay? So, he says, I disagree with the first part of your reason.

Okay? Dirty good karma, okay, is not motivated by negative emotions. When you said ghello, you contradict yourself.

Because you said about... this was your definition, it's motivated by negative emotions. That was your definition.

So ghello means you contradict yourself. Similar to korsu. Okay?

Then he says, well, okay, I agree. Dirty good karma is the second thing I was defining. Dirty good karma is...

Sorry, dirty karma is the thing I was defining. The second thing he was defining was clean karma. Clean karma.

You know? Then that's just... he's just desperate.

That's just a desperate last thing. Okay, I agree. You can't agree.

It's dirty. It's dirty. Okay?

Okay. All right. What do we learn from here?

[Speaker 2]
What do we learn from here?

[Speaker 1]
The distinction between dirty and clean good karma is not to be found in saying that it's caused by seeds or it's caused by the manifest negative emotions or the seeds of the negative emotions. You can't draw the distinction between dirty karma and clean karma by its cause. You know?

Was it by saying if the cause is still a seed, then it's clean. If the cause is manifest, then it's dirty. That's not going to work as a distinction between clean karma and dirty karma.

We don't propose an alternate yet. We'll do it in the wrong loop. And sometimes you can skip ahead and just see how do we do it before you forget about this argument which is going to happen in about 30 seconds.

But let's go on. The next one is very interesting because they're going to get into if you do see emptiness directly, what happens to the second link? Okay?

And that's kind of the point of teaching the dependent. How do I shut down this thing? Oh, that's cool.

So the next arguments are quite important for us. Okay, okay. Okay, Kachindari.

Now, you've got to know something here. This is Kunjun Dhamma.

[Speaker 2]
What's that? The truth of the source of suffering. The second truth normally.

[Speaker 1]
You can present it first. But it's normally presented as second. So let's take this truth of the source of suffering.

Okay? Now there's always two divisions of it. The source of pain always has two divisions.

[Speaker 2]
The mental functions and the seeds?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. You're close.

[Speaker 2]
Karma in that way.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Leda-nyama. Karma and negative emotions.

These are the two parts of the truth of the source of suffering. All pain comes from karma or negative emotions. There's two divisions.

So he's saying... What's he saying here? What's he saying?

Karma. Yeah, the karma half. The karma half of this truth of the source of pain.

Let's talk about the karma half. He's not talking about the...

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, the negative emotion part.

[Speaker 1]
So he's restricting it to the karma half of the truth of the source of suffering. Source of pain. Okay?

If something is the karma, which acts as a source of pain, right? Then it must always be karma. Fresh karma of the second link.

The karma, which is acting as a source of pain, must always be the karma, which is the second link.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Is there any other karma in the twelve links?

[Speaker 2]
Ten.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, number ten is also karma. Two and ten are karma.

[Speaker 2]
Which he's about to say that you perceive it.

[Speaker 1]
And you can think of it as the difference between a watermelon seed just planted today and a watermelon seed three months later, still underground, hasn't opened yet. That's ten. But it's getting very fat.

[Speaker 2]
But is ten linked?

[Speaker 1]
What do you guys think?

[Speaker 2]
I don't know.

[Speaker 1]
Is link number ten the source of pain?

[Speaker 2]
I was kind of thinking that as well. I think so.

[Speaker 1]
I think so. By the way, all the links are involved with those truths. Okay?

I mean, the wheel. So when you say something's a link, it's already messy. It's already bad.

And as you study the wheel more and more, you start to realize every single link is nasty. There's nothing good in the whole wheel. There's no good version of any link.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? All right. As you study more, you'll understand that.

I see.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
All right.

[Speaker 2]
This must be a cut sheet that wasn't around for our first debate.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Right? About mixing up the second and the tenth.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, by the way, our counterexample makes it very clear.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Go ahead. Oh, I like your ch'en ch'en. He just learns things.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I know. It's obnoxious. YouTube, right?

[Speaker 1]
He's a good teacher.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
By the way, okay, ch'en ch'en. Der... Good.

That's the whole argument.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, and then he just goes on. So let's take the tenth link. Are you telling me it's...

The second link. Are you telling me it's the second link? Why?

Because it's...

[Speaker 2]
Part of the source. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
It's part of the karma half of the truth, of the source of pain.

[Speaker 2]
All right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Okay. Then here he says tsa ma drub.

In here he says tsa ma drub. I disagree that link number ten is part of the karma half of the source of pain. Then we say, yes it is.

Ch'en ch'en di yin bi ch'en. This is an unsatisfying reason and it's almost illegal. Oh.

Because it's what I said it was.

[Speaker 2]
In this case it's more straightforward, though. He's pretty clear that...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I mean, maybe. No, no, no.

[Speaker 2]
That's not true because his... Dertel is just saying that it's the second link. And then he's saying it's the second link because it's the karma half of the truth.

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry, what?

[Speaker 2]
His, Dertel, is saying it is the second link.

[Speaker 1]
Are you telling me it's the second link?

[Speaker 2]
He says...

[Speaker 1]
In between here he says, why do you say that? Yeah, Ch'en ch'en. And we say...

[Speaker 2]
Because it's Lekhe K'unjun.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. And then he says, I disagree that it's Lekhe K'unjun. And we say, of course it's Lekhe K'unjun.

[Speaker 2]
No, he doesn't disagree that it's Lekhe K'unjun. He disagrees that it's yinlak nibba. He's good.

He's good at that. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
No, between here he disagrees that it's Lekhe K'unjun.

[Speaker 2]
Ch'en ch'en di yin bi ch'en.

[Speaker 1]
Isn't he disagreeing that it's yinlak nibba? No, I don't think so.

[Speaker 2]
Let's say it again.

[Speaker 1]
Let's take the tenth link. Are you telling me it's the second link? Why?

Because it is the source of pain. I disagree. It is the source of pain because it's number ten.

Yeah, ch'en ch'en. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Then he switches. He says, okay, it is the second link. Duh.

[Speaker 2]
No, you can't say that.

[Speaker 1]
After the tal, he says, duh. If he says, I agree after this tal. Okay.

Okay, he's got two possible answers to tell, right? Ch'en ch'en or duh. Ch'en ch'en means, why do you say it's the second link?

We say, well, it is the source of pain. Well, why do you say it's the source of pain? Well, that's what we said it was.

Well, then I agree it's the second link. Come on. This demon is like, come on.

Now you're getting desperate.

[Speaker 2]
Right. You okay? Right.

Yeah, so he has to be saying that it's the second link.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, tal goes down, right? Are you telling me it's the second link? Because we just gave it ch'en ch'en.

So God has figured out that the first tal after ch'en ch'en goes down. He doesn't necessarily understand it. He just goes down.

And it's true. It's correct. He's figured it out.

I didn't even think of it myself.

[Speaker 2]
You're covering my mind.

[Speaker 1]
It's true. It's true. Okay, now here's where they get into an arya's karma.

And that's a fascinating subject to me. Go ahead. Ch'en kachit pakpe tenlai yang si chi me nam nim gyip phungpo, ch'en penche kile sa du sokpa yut sem.

You guys want to take a shot? Pakpe tenlai. This 10 means body and mind.

Okay, so sometimes R-T-E-N which means foundational basis can mean the equipment you're born with. Your home base. Okay, the home base for Nick.

Nick's body, Nick's mind is sometimes called the home base. The headquarters. So be careful with the word 10.

So let's take the body and mind of a person who saw emptiness directly. I say there does exist, yeah, okay. I claim, well he claims, I do say there does exist.

This is a verb from sok which you have in the prayers at the end of class every day.

[Speaker 2]
Collections.

[Speaker 1]
It means to put together karma. Okay, to accumulate karma. In that case we're praying that people accumulate the karma for the body and mind of a Buddha.

But here he says, I as do have, they do accumulate sattva, fresh, they do accumulate fresh karma, which will project, which will throw into the future. The classic use of pen outside of, exactly. I'm glad I didn't put any money on it.

It's da pen, da pen. Da is the arrow. Pen means shoot it.

Okay, so some people translate this as shooting karma. I don't think it's too professional. But that is the verb, shoot the karma.

So he claims they do collect new karma which is going to shoot into the future, Heaps. Heaps, always remember, 99% of the time, heaps implies subject. Mortal.

Subject. Okay. And Namin, it's a question Stanley asked me yesterday in the ACI class.

What's the first of the flowers in that list?

[Speaker 2]
Ripening result.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, this means, which has ripened from karma. Which has ripened from karma. Nimba means ripe.

For example, we're not supposed to teach tantra to someone who's not nimba. Who's not ready, who's not ripe. So this means, this implies ripened from karma.

Ripened from karma. Okay. And then, yang si chi ma, a later rebirth.

A later rebirth. Yang si means again existence. And it's an ancient word for rebirth.

Another existence. Another existence. So be careful with it.

By the way, this is the modern colloquial term for a tuku. Oh, this is Rinpoche's yang si. So if you meet Rinpoche's rebirth, his reincarnation in Delhi, who's about ten now?

Ten. Then you call him, oh, yang si na. You're a rebirth man.

So if you want to be cool, if you want to show how smart you are, when Geshe Lothar comes, and we're trying to get him here pretty soon, he got his visa. He's so talkative. He's a fountain of Tibetan knowledge.

He'll just talk your ear off. You can learn Tibetan in about three weeks, if you hang out with him. Because he can't stop talking.

So yang si chi ma means future rebirth. So chi ma means after. We had a chi with an s in it yesterday.

Who had that? Later. Later.

Somebody had a later that was really important yesterday.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I don't remember it. Probably my text. I can't remember every word right now.

I didn't go yesterday.

[Speaker 1]
Anyway, it means later. It also means outside, and that's a problem. So anyway, now, his assertion is that an Arya can still collect karma fresh, meaning not that fresh is supposed to disallow what?

[Speaker 2]
Memory? No, it's the seeds that he has stored up from before.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the big deal about an Arya is they don't make new seeds for future lives, but they still have past seeds for future lives, and a normal Arya will live seven more lifetimes before they attain enlightenment. So why? They never collect new karma to have a future life, but they still have a bank account of seven lifetimes worth of karma to be reborn, unless they practice Tantra.

[Speaker 2]
So what does the new mean?

[Speaker 1]
So they don't collect new karma for future lives, according to us, but they do have karma for future lives, which they collected in the past. Oh, so these are the Kachiks? Yeah, these are the Kachiks.

He says they do make new karma for future lives. And the way he said future lives was which is going to throw the dirty body and mind, which is going to ripen in the next life, in future lives. Okay.

That's a note to myself. Okay. Good.

I'll kiss you, but your wife is here. They never talk. No, he doesn't have that kind of karma.

Why? Okay, good. A commentary to the sutra on dependence.

It's probably Vasubandhu. I'm guessing. We'll go see.

The commentary to the sutra on dependence says, and this is very, very, very, very, very, very, very famous. Why should I see into this directly? Why are you always talking about that?

[Speaker 2]
Because if you see the truth, you don't throw it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, there's no throwing. There's no arrow shoot. There's no arrow shoot with a person, la, with a person who saw the truth, saw the truth, emptied it.

It should be on your tongue like a mantra. Now, this is tricky.

[Speaker 2]
So yangsi, you know now, means rebirth.

[Speaker 1]
There's no rebirth. This tel means connected. Here, watch.

[Speaker 2]
I like to demonstrate. That's tel.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, rel is the sound of ripping. And now these are tel. They're separate.

So tel means separate. If you put an i, it means connected. Like tendrel.

So if there's an A, be careful. It means separate. If there's an E, it means together.

It's nafti. The sound is the same, almost. Both are the same, except the tendrel has the au.

Yeah, exactly. Don't show off. Just kidding.

Just kidding. There's no rebirth with a person who's free from. Now, some texts say si, and some texts say se, and it's about 50-50.

These are two different links of the twelve. Unfortunately, they're spelled almost the same. So ever since forever, people have miscarved, mixed them up.

This is gyepa sepa. This is chupa sipa.

[Speaker 2]
What's gyepa sepa? Desire.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, initial desire. Initial desire. Then gupa lemma is strong desire, which in the wheel means misunderstanding the seed.

It doesn't mean desire. And misunderstanding the seed activates it. It makes it pregnant.

It's very interesting. So this is light misunderstanding the seed. And this is the seed that's already pregnant because you misunderstood it lightly and strongly.

This is link number eight, sepa. This is link number ten, sipa. So which one do you think an ayah doesn't have?

Eight. Yeah, good. I say it should be sepa.

Oh, okay. Kirup Tenpa Dagye prefers sipa. He never uses sipa in this quote.

He uses this quote a few times. Other authors will use sipa. Okay, so.

Okay. All right. They both work.

They both work. We need to find the Sanskrit. We need to find the Sanskrit.

So maybe Christina and Kasika can help us. Vasubandhu's Commentary to the Citra Dependent. It's big.

It's 130 pages in the Tibetan. 260 pages. It's big.

I translated it recently for fun.

[Speaker 2]
My copious research. Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I get addicted to something and I couldn't stop. So for like two weeks I translated it. But anyway, based on my research, I think it's sepa.

Sepa. Okay. Sesam bheja.

If you don't have this light, this initial misunderstanding of the seeds, then you're not going to be reborn. Not possible. So the implication is an Arya has jao from se.

[Speaker 2]
Has jao from se.

[Speaker 1]
They have freed themselves from link number eight. Therefore they cannot be reborn. They will never be reborn.

But they also don't have se. Because they didn't have se. They never activated the karma.

That's why se makes sense. Yeah, so people who chose se are not crazy. Yeah, not wrong.

Here's the quotation. It certainly says, as this is repeated by the commentary, something mati, gunamati. There's a commentator in the Tengyur who keeps saying se.

I think he's right. Gunamati. But it would be nice to note in your footnote why sepa is so common and why it's not crazy.

Then you can look really smart, which is the main purpose to translate.

[Speaker 2]
Are we still on the quote?

[Speaker 1]
This is my notes. Oh, okay. Or is it?

[Speaker 2]
It's not in bold.

[Speaker 1]
Maybe the quotation, I think. I don't remember. I think I added this.

Anybody have an older copy?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Of the original input? It's in the database. Sure.

You're already pulling it up, Apollo?

[Speaker 2]
What do we call his text?

[Speaker 1]
An analysis of dependence? Is it the chido or the tachi? Oh, it's the tachi.

Tendril tachi, right?

[Speaker 2]
Lower middle way? Yeah, it will be lower middle way.

[Speaker 1]
Do you have a category?

[Speaker 2]
Sorry, I didn't know what you were asking.

[Speaker 1]
Anyway, this is how he spells it. In his commentary. In India, from India.

It appears you have it. Oh, okay. It's not in the original?

Okay. I think this is from Gunamati. Okay.

I took a shot at it. When things are finalized, that is birth, and the problems of aging and so on. Those of you who are interested, this is an ancient, ancient form of Sok.

Wow. Like complete? Finalized?

No, et cetera. Oh, oh. Okay.

Cool. And in this ancient form, you see a connection to Tsok.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, from Sok.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
La Sopa?

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. And anyway, those are the two lines that come before these two lines. The two lines that what?

These two lines come before the two lines we have. Oh, okay. The two lines we have say, if you see the truth, there's no more shooting.

I see. If you don't have initial desire, you can't have a rebirth.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Then the two lines before that are, they're not so important. Okay.

Okay, got it. Oh, it's over here. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I would note that. Okay.

You have to understand that what activates the seed, what changes a seed from two to ten, what makes the watermelon seed ready to make a watermelon sprout while it's been in the ground for three months, which, you know, is water in a garden. But what activates the seed is eight and nine, which is initial desire and strong desire. But that desire is shamba.

[Speaker 2]
Shamba. As attachment for attachment, misunderstanding for misunderstanding.

[Speaker 1]
It's an attraction towards thinking. It's coming from itself. Okay, it's not desire in the sense of, you know, I want a hamburger.

Okay? It's not that kind of desire. It's a, in the wheel of life, a lot of what they call desire is really the desire to think the wrong way.

Okay?

[Speaker 2]
That's what I'm trying to say.

[Speaker 1]
So eight and nine, what activates karma is that you're thinking the wrong way. And even, especially about speech. Okay?

You're thinking the wrong way about thinking the wrong way. You see what I mean? And that's what activates karma.

And that's why an Arya can't make new karma. They can't make new number ten pregnant ladies. They can do things.

They can do lean number two, but it's never going to work. Okay? Because they don't think the wrong way about it.

So what's the right way? Sorry? Exists from its own side.

I just... The desire here. I think you've got to say it in your footnote.

The desire in eight and nine, initial desire and advanced desire, how we should translate them. Desire and grabbing is not a good translation, which is what the words mean.

[Speaker 2]
So what word do you use again?

[Speaker 1]
Well, Rinpoche used to prefer initial desire and advanced desire. One is just a stronger version of the other. But it's important to note, I think, that what it really means is thinking the wrong way about things, and especially deceit.

If you think... It's interesting. If you think about the seed the wrong way, you activate it.

It's very interesting. You can have lots of lean number twos running around, but they will never be activated if you don't think about them the wrong way. And that's what an artist is not doing.

They're still doing stuff, and they're still doing stuff motivated by ignorance, but it will never arrive to them. It will never throw a future life because they don't think about it the wrong way.

[Speaker 2]
Because the inborn tendency is not enough to activate it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, right. Wow, that's why the pen is so important. Yeah, that's why it's crucial.

And by the way, that's why understanding the pen well can keep you out of the lower realms. You can go there. The seed's not strong enough to project the lower realm.

It's weakened by a person who understands the pen. They beat up half the ignorance. It's too weak to show a lower realm.

Just to keep the pen alive. Ten minutes. Let's start the next one and we can...

Okay, go. Kachi, pakpe ten lai yang si chi me nan min gyi pung po drup che kyi le sa du sokpa me sokpa me ser na Yeah, and let's stop there for today. But it's a very controversial statement.

The only word that has changed is druphen je became drup che. Drup che. Someone tell me the difference.

[Speaker 2]
Established versus motivated. What's pen je? It will project into the future.

[Speaker 1]
What's drup je? It will take the old karma and make it happen. Oh.

Drup che kyi le. Establishing karma. Do they have...

Do aryas make new karma that will project the future life? No. No.

Now, and so the other guy... What do you call it? Kachi.

Naively says... Naively. Naively says, Oh, well then they don't have drup je either.

They don't make new druping karma because they don't make new tenbaing karma. He assumes, Well, if they don't make karma to throw new lives, then they don't make new karma to complete new lives. Ah, the completion.

So it's the same as... To bring about. Drup means bring about.

Bring about. And now, yeah, I'm just going to leave you there because it's sexy. You'll come back in two days.

Now, I'll say it again. The other guy naively assumed, Oh, well if they don't make new karma that throws a future life, then they don't make new karma which manifests a future life. So there's both.

[Speaker 2]
Which can't be true because there's nothing like that.

[Speaker 1]
Well, sensei Kachi keeps saying it.

[Speaker 2]
He has an officer also. Because you're Kachi.

[Speaker 1]
So all karma... By the way, drup je kye lay, classically in DCI and in the Abhidharma, it's compared to the painter and the painter's assistants.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, so drup je kye lay is not like...

[Speaker 1]
Is it the same as drup je kye lay then? Similar, yeah. So you've got the Michelangelo sketching out the thing and then he tells the student, you paint this blue, you paint this green, you paint this yellow.

So one is called pen je. He's the sketcher. And then the details are filled in by the drup je.

Drup je. Okay, thank you. By the way, now your text is getting into serious stuff.

Now your text is getting into, if I understand this stuff, I don't go to hell. If I understand this stuff, I can become Buddha.

[Speaker 2]
SANGYE SHINGDU MIKTE YUWARGI DOKUN NAMTAK SHING LAJUPAR SHOK HIRAMGURU RANAMANGALAKAM NIRATAYAMI GYEWA DIGYE OKUN SUNAM YASHE SONG SOK SHING SUNAM YASHE LE JUNG WE DANPAKUNI DOBAR SHOK Shogi, shogi, shogi.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. Thank you for coming. All this way.

Just to talk about this great stuff.