Классика Алмазного огранщика: Нижний Срединный путь — Анализ зависимости, занятие 3

[Speaker 1]
So we talked about, this is Sugeng's text about the Wheel of Life, the Twelve Links of Dependence, and we got you ready for the next argument. The next argument was somebody said the definition of dependent origination of produced things, of produced things, is when things which are produced, when they meet, when they touch, their causes and conditions. Give me an example of conditions, Ken?

Water, sunlight, so, what's gyu? Yeah, tree, seed, okay, gyu dang ken, okay. And we, so, the guy, the debater, the other debater, we shot the first one.

He made a big mistake. He said dependence means results depend on the causes. And then we said, well, what about empty space?

And then he said, oh, yeah, that doesn't mean. Now, this guy is more careful, because he said, du che kyi ten dra, dependence with produced things, okay, he's, he's cutting out du ma che, which is what? Yeah, unproduced things.

So, he said, he's more careful. This debater, and, and these guys are gonna get more and more and more and more and more careful. They get more and more smart.

They're still wrong, but they get more and more smart as they go. You know, we're just at the beginning, there's hundreds of them. Okay, so, this guy says, oh, okay, I, Sugarn, I'm just talking about dependence with changing things, okay, I'm not talking about unchanging things.

And, my definition of dependent origination for changing things is things that, where the result touches the cause or the, or the condition, okay, and it creates something, okay. Then, we're gonna give, first thing we give is what?

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
Why do we choose this subject? No, he, he gets, he says something wrong. Yeah, we give a counterexample.

Okay, everything that has a color is red. Oh, well, take bananas. Okay, all right, so the, oh, if, the point is that the student reading the text should already understand that suk is something which doesn't fit this definition.

Okay, so, immediately you say, oh, this doesn't fit suk. What's suk? Form.

We talked about it yesterday, two kinds, right? Sanskrit? Rupa.

How do you say dollar in, in Hindi? Rupee, okay. It means something substantial.

Okay, they don't say dollar, they say rupee. It comes from rupa. Okay, so, let's take form.

It could be a cup. It could be tsen den kyi chi.

[Speaker 2]
Tsen den kyi chi. The foundation of...

[Speaker 1]
Tsen den. It could be the smell of sandalwood. Okay, we had it yesterday.

But yesterday was long ago.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Suk chö chö. Okay, take anything physical. Doesn't take, let's take, let's take something physical.

You can say form. Okay. Now, the first thought goes up or down?

Good, down, because it is sarcastic. Ho ho ho. So, your definition, tsen means definition.

So, your definition fits that? What was his definition? Anything that touches its causes and conditions and is produced.

It's the definition of dependent origination. Okay, we said, oh, so I guess your definition fits this, right? Does it?

No, does it? Was this created by touching its causes and conditions? Cause is the clay from the ground.

Conditions is a machine to make it. Some human to design the machine. Okay, blah blah blah.

Was this made by touching those conditions or not? It was. It was.

It doesn't seem like a counterexample. Let's go deeper. Okay, so chö, are you telling me your definition fits that?

Duh, okay, understood. I'm sorry, understood chö chö here. Okay, Adam, Adam, what's chö chö mean?

Yeah, why you say that? Why you say it fits your definition? Tsön chö de chö.

Tsön chö is the opposite of chönyi. Chönyi means definition. Tsön chö means the thing you're defining.

Okay, chönyi, tsön chö, chönyi, tsön chö. One of his subjects is going to be tsen tsen. Definitions and definitums.

Definida. Okay, it's gonna be, so in this case, what's the definition? Sorry, what's being defined?

Dependent origination, for changing things. What's the definition? Anything that touches its causes and conditions and is produced that way.

So we say, okay, let's take any form, any physical thing, iPhone, cup, tissue, okay. Are you telling me it fits your definition? And he says, why do you say that?

Why do you say form fits your definition? He says, tsön chö de chö, because it's something which is produced by... It's something which exhibits dependent origination, for changing things, okay.

It is a changing thing that has dependent origination. So it should fit your definition. Okay, got it?

What's being defined here is dependent origination for changing things. Okay, what's being defined by the other guy is dependent origination for changing things. Okay, so we say, okay, take anything, take any physical thing, cup.

Is it your definition? Does your definition fit that? He says, why do you say that?

Because it's what you're defining. What is he defining? Dependent origination for changing things.

Yeah, for producing, okay.

[Speaker 2]
Tsön chö means...

[Speaker 1]
De chö means produced thing. You want to go deeper? You want to go deeper?

gyu dang khyen du pa le du pa le chepay chö. gyu dang khyen du pa le chepay chö is the full form of duje. gyu dang khyen du pa le chepay chö, du che.

Okay, that's the full form. Duje means produced, but the full form, the full wording, since you asked me, that thing which is produced, which has been produced by its causes and conditions. Did he use the word touch?

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, then... So, duje means produced thing. It's a synonym for mitarpa.

What's that mean?

[Speaker 2]
Changing thing.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, all right. It's just, they are, they are equal sets. All changing things are produced by causes and effect, by causes and conditions, and all things produced by causes and conditions are equal to all changing things.

They're equal. And there's some more synonyms, but it doesn't come to mind. Yeah, ngopo, functional things.

So, tsawa and dono means, if you agree back at the beginning, here's the beginning. Are you telling me your definition fits a cup? And he says, yes.

Tsawa means back at the beginning, at the root. Dono, so... And I'm sorry to give you so much information in such short time, but I don't care.

You flew here. I'm also only here for a few days. There are two allowed answers to tell.

There are two allowed answers to tell, okay? One is, duh. It means, I agree.

And one is, chi-chi, which is... Why do you say that? Why do you say that?

Why? It means, I don't agree, okay? So, in between here, he's understood the answer, chi-chi.

They don't write it down in the book. Why did you say that? And we beat him.

Okay, and then he just went back and said, okay, I agree to your... I agree that your definition fits a cup, or a thing, a form. What was his definition?

Let's remind ourselves. Anything which is produced by...

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
By contact, which is with its causes and conditions, okay? If you agree that the cup is produced by contact with its causes and conditions, okay? Tsawa dono.

Now, now he's gonna say, tsuk gi gyur yin no, if something is the cause of a physical thing, okay? If something is the cause of a physical thing, then it must have made contact with a physical thing. Yeah, dung che means contact with.

Dung is with. Che is contact. It must have made contact with a physical thing.

Why you say that? Because you just agreed to me. You just agreed that your definition fits a form.

Okay? Dung mi che. If you agree that if something is the cause of a physical thing, it must have made contact with a physical thing, okay?

Now, here's the punchline. Okay, this is the guts of our counterexample. Tsuk gi gyur gyur chu che.

So, there's two kinds of causes. We're gonna learn it in Adam's text, because Dharmakirti taught it. There's a mu gyur and a gyur gyur.

Watch, watch. Here's a mu gyur. Ready?

Okay, no, no. Not yet. Here's direct cause.

Okay, now here's indirect cause. Okay, when I cause Xiaoping to move through another thing, that's called indirect cause. Okay, I'm the indirect cause of Xiaoping moving.

He's the direct cause of Xiaoping moving. Got it? Okay, so I'm actually two seconds before.

Okay, got it? So, in Buddhism, we talk about two kinds of causation. Direct and indirect.

Now, now, here's the punchline. Did I contact Xiaoping? Okay, got it?

Therefore, you cannot use the word contact in the definition of dependent origination. Okay, because there's not always direct contact. There's indirect causation.

Yeah, he used it in his definition. Let's go back to his definition. Chep.

Which is pred, okay? Okay, you're right. He said produced through contact with its causes and conditions, okay?

And that, that's close. Okay, I'm going to teach you a new English idiom. Close but no cigar.

Cigar is the stinky cigarette that if you win a contest, you get a free cigar. So, close means, close means you almost won, but you didn't win, okay? His definition is close, but no cigar.

He didn't win, okay? His definition is close. We learn the most things in our life when we make small mistakes.

You know, we almost succeed and we do some small mistake. Then we learn a lot. Okay, so his definition is close, but no cigar.

Not quite right, not quite right, but we learn a lot from his definition. Oh, it can be dependent origination if it's indirect cause, you know, it doesn't cause directly, okay? Got it?

Yeah, gyu gyu. Now the word gyu, you guys know, we just discussed it this morning, but that was a long time ago. Stream, stream, okay?

The Sanskrit is Tantra. Yeah, which in Tantra is a string, means a stream, yeah. So, gyu gyu means indirect cause.

Well, how do you say direct cause? Mu gyu. D-N-G-O-S.

D-N-G-O-S. Mu gyu. Direct cause, okay?

So, he has an essay on it in his text, but we didn't get there yet. There's, it's called Gyundekinamshak, the presentation on cause and effect. And in his book, by next year, we'll start to discuss mu gyus and gyu gyus, okay?

Okay, sukhi gyu gyu chu che. Okay, let's, okay, so he's, we're giving another counterexample. Oh, let's take the indirect cause of a cup, which is the designer in the factory.

The guy who, on paper, he drew this cup, okay? He's not the machine that made the cup, but he's one step back. Okay, he's the indirect cause of the cup.

Okay, let's take the designer in the factory, who drew the cup and gave the picture to the guy in the factory. DER THAO. DER THAO.

Oh, are you telling me it fits your definition? Okay, which means, are you telling me there was contact? Did the person in the management floor of the building, who drew the cup, went to the factory and, and, and made this cup?

Are you telling me that? It's a sarcastic, right? DER THAO.

Why do you say that? DER THAO. That's your definition.

Don't hassle me. You gave me the definition. That's your stupid definition.

Don't blame me. I'm just asking you a question. Did the designer of the cup stand there and make the cup?

No, why do you say that? Because that's your definition. Okay, okay, he made contact.

That's your definition, not mine, okay? DER THAO. Because that, because of that, okay?

Then, DER MI NUS SO means, you, of course, you can't agree that the guy who designed the cup on the third floor was standing in the factory when they made the cup on the first floor. Okay, DER MI NUS SO means, you cannot agree. NUS means able to, MI means not, and DER means agree.

So, you can't agree. Of course, you can't disagree. NUS means able to.

Yeah, and DER means agree. Yeah. And what's the Sanskrit for DER?

[Speaker 2]
DER...

[Speaker 1]
DER PA'I DO, what's the sutra of DER PA?

[Speaker 2]
Sutra of DER MI NUS?

[Speaker 1]
Kama Sutra. Yeah, because it means desire. Yeah, it's the same word.

I agree and I desire. It's the same. Kama.

Okay, I do. Okay, it means desire. I desire means I agree.

Okay, okay, DER MI NUS SO. You can't agree. So, that was a general...

He promised us two parts to his discussion back before. He said, I'm going to talk generally about dependent origination, and then I'm going to get into the meaning of each of the twelve links. Okay, so he's just finished his general discussion, and now NYIPA means step two.

He's going to talk about each of the divisions of the twelve links, and this gets difficult. Okay, you really want to understand the real life? This is a dark deep forest.

You know, this is going to the bottom of the ocean. Okay, and it's scary. Okay, it's difficult.

Okay, but if you understand this, then to explain the painting to somebody is like, you know, easy. Okay, so you're going deep, deep, deep, and nobody went this deep. He went deeper than anybody, except for Vasavada.

So, I'm sorry. This is going to be harder. But you'll thank me later.

Is this an English idiom? You'll thank me later. Like, you'll get many headaches in the next few years, but later you'll say, Oh, Geshe Michael was so kind to teach me that.

Okay, you ready? I suffered with my teacher. Okay.

NYIPA CHE BA SO SO DON CHE PA LA. CHE PA means explain. DON means the meaning.

SO SO means individual. CHE BA means divisions or links. Okay, so now, secondly, I'm going to explain the meaning of the individual divisions of the twelve links.

Okay, the twelve links. Okay, of the...of dependence. In Tunisian.

And that explanation is going to take three parts. NAM PA SUM. That...that explanation has three parts. Okay. When I explain the twelve links, we're going to go in three steps. Here's the first.

He doesn't name them. Probably it's...

[Speaker 2]
Oh, it would be...

[Speaker 1]
Shen Luke. Yeah, somebody...the wrong guys get to come and say, I think this, and we say no. Wrong Luke Sharper.

Then we just present our system. Then they get to come back and continue their argument. After they hear our system, they get to come back and criticize us, which is only fair.

Okay, first we wipe them out. Then we tell them what we think. And then they get to come back and say, but yours is also stupid.

Okay, and then we have to beat them one more time. This is the way that Buddhists learn something. In a Western book, which of those three do you have?

You only have the second one. This is what it is. But they don't tell you what it's not.

And you learn a lot by what it's not, because of the principle...principle of DOG PA. DOG PA. Yeah, you eliminate what's wrong, and therefore you establish what's right, which is the definition of Siddhanta, his subject.

Buddhist school, the name for Buddhist school means eliminate the wrong ideas, and then you come to the correct idea. That's the name for Buddhist school. Okay, so we have to go through this three-step process.

What's the first one?

[Speaker 2]
Their system.

[Speaker 1]
In Tibetan?

[Speaker 2]
Shenmue.

[Speaker 1]
DOG PA. We destroy their system. DOG PA.

We destroy their system. Second step? RANG NU ZHAG PA.

[Speaker 2]
RANG NU ZHAG PA. Yeah, we establish our system.

[Speaker 1]
We present our system. TSOS PA PONG WA.

[Speaker 2]
They came back into beta.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and we PONG WA.

[Speaker 2]
We destroy their system.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, we destroy their...their...their reputation, okay? And that's such a common idea that Nagarjuna wrote a book called TSOS PA PONG WA. One of his six books is called Tsundog.

You know? You know, defending yourself from these debates, okay? Okay, got it?

Okay. I think that's the three. Okay, Dambala, here's the first one.

GA CIG RNAL NAS. Somebody comes and says, okay? Somebody comes and says, and this gets hard.

NYON MONGS CAN MA YIN PAS MA RIG PA YIN NA MA RIG PA YIN PA'I KHYAB. Okay? If there's...now, what's the first of the twelve links?

[Speaker 2]
Misunderstanding.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, I'm gonna kiss you. Because you didn't say ignorance. Thank you.

Okay, yeah, he didn't say ignorance, right? He said misunderstanding, okay? So, he's...the other guy says, if you have a form of misunderstanding, which is not a negative emotion, okay? It must still be misunderstanding. All forms of misunderstanding, which don't involve negative emotions, are still forms of misunderstanding. And you can also say, as the first link.

[Speaker 2]
There's a form of misunderstanding in the name of...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, okay? So, you can say it like this. If you have a form of misunderstanding, which is not involved with negative emotion, will it still cause you bad karma?

He says yes. The other guy says yes. So, the counterexample's gonna be tough.

The counterexample's gonna be tough. He jumps to the bottom of the ocean right away. He doesn't take us there slowly.

Okay, I'm sorry. But you will learn so much, okay? And I could have chosen you an easier text, but I know you want something harder to learn.

Okay, and you have Shintan dirty. Now, the counterexample has got to be subtle and sexy. The counterexample better be cool.

Okay, here's our counterexample. Okay, you think that? How about this?

Now, what is this? Bhaktshak. What's a bhaktshak?

[Speaker 2]
Seeds?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, mental seed. What DCI is all about? Oh, you're gonna plant a bhaktshak with four stems, you see?

In Sanskrit? Vasana. Vasana.

Yeah, it's mental seed. Okay, vasana. Related to getting dressed, okay, but I'm not going there.

Anyway, that's another subject. Let's take the bhaktshak. For denzin.

Denzin. Den means true or real. Den means true.

Jada and... Jenda. Jenda.

Real. And zin means to hold it. Or to grasp it.

What it means in the highest school is to think the flower is coming this way. Okay, this flower, because I like it, you have to say it that way, this flower, because I like it, is coming out of a good karma seed in my mind. If I'm allergic to flowers, it's coming out of a bad seed.

That's the emptiness of a flower. If I made a bad karma, it'll give me allergy. If I made a good karma, I'll say, oh, it's so beautiful.

But it's coming from... It's the same flower. It's a pen, it's like the pen.

So, in the DCI system, which is the highest system, which you're not in, It's... To grasp it as real means to grasp that it's coming this way. To believe that it's coming this way.

So, I translate denzin as the... you know, the tendency to believe that it's real. The tendency to believe that it's real.

Okay? And bak chak means the seed for that in your own mind. Because you did it your whole life.

Your whole life, you believed the flower's coming this way. And your mom told you that. Everybody told you that.

So, that planted seeds in your mind. And now, when you grew up, you still have that. Seed?

Seed to see it the wrong way. Seed to think about it the wrong way. Where'd this flower come from?

Oh, Geshe-la, it came from the store. What was the indirect cause? Oh, somebody planted it in Ecuador and it flew on a jet airplane here, you know.

You ask a Buddhist, what's the cause? If I like it, it's because I gave something beautiful to someone else. Okay?

Got it? Denzin means hold it the wrong way. In whose mind is this bak chak?

In whose mind is it? Gyu means mental stream. This gyu means mental stream.

We just had it as indirect. The same word. Indirect cause.

But here, it means stream. So, here it means the mind stream. In the mind stream, of a drachomba, of an arhat, person who reached nirvana already.

Okay? No more... What's the definition of nirvana?

A person who got rid of their negative emotions. Okay? Nyenta means lowest track.

Three tracks. Listener track, self-made Buddha track, Bodhisattva track. Especially in your school.

He's now our representative in that school. He's got a business card. I'm a Svatantrika school.

Hi, I'm Sugeng Shi. I'm from the Svatantrika school. So, in his school, this division into three tracks is very basic.

It's very important. Listener track, self-made Buddha track, and Bodhisattva track. Can these two reach our heart?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Can they see emptiness directly? Do they have compassion for the whole world? No.

And at some point, they will graduate to this path. And real Buddhahood only comes here, at the end of this path. So, sooner or later, these guys have to go up here.

You know, all the lamas say, you can save time, just jump right here. Okay? So, here we go.

Take a person, on the lowest of the three tracks, he's already arhat. Can he have mental affliction? Can he have a negative thought?

Can he get angry? Can he get upset? If you are an arhat, and you come home, and your husband screams at you for no reason, will you get angry?

Impossible. Not possible. Okay?

Why? Because you saw emptiness. What's the emptiness?

The emptiness of the husband who is not coming from you. Okay, got it? Got it?

Now, is this a good counter example? What was his definition? He said, any kind of misunderstanding in the mind of a person who doesn't have negative emotions is still misunderstanding.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
It's still misunderstanding meaning the first link. Meaning the first link. If a If misunderstanding is the first link, is it always going to cause you rebirth?

Yeah, it's a wheel. It's in the wheel. Okay?

It's in the wheel. So, here he's already talking about the first link. Okay?

Okay? Okay. Now we have some if it's a good counter example, if it's a good counter example, that mental seed must be a form of misunderstanding.

Okay? Must be a form of misunderstanding and it shouldn't be negative emotion. Okay?

If it's a good counter example. Okay? Let's go.

Let's go see.

[Speaker 2]
So, in this sentence context, how do we translate it? So, this is the counter example of the previous one.

[Speaker 1]
He said, if something is a form of misunderstanding which is not tied up with negative emotions, it's still misunderstanding, implied the first link of the wheel. And then we say, okay, take the seed for misunderstanding which exists in the mind of an arhat at the lower time. Take that seed.

[Speaker 2]
We're gonna find out.

[Speaker 1]
Are you telling me it's still link number one? Okay? Are you telling me it's still misunderstanding link number one?

Are you telling me it's still link number one? Why do you say that? Dei chir.

Because it is a form of misunderstanding which is not tied up with negative emotions. Now that's touchy. Because it implies that the seed for misunderstanding is still misunderstanding, but not first link.

Okay? It's not gonna get him in trouble. He has a vasana.

He has some old traces of a seed, but maybe that seed never opened. It's like after you do the four powers, you still have that seed but it's in the freezer. It will never open.

Okay, got it? Maybe that's what we're talking about. Dei chir.

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Arhat is still in this trial. Arhat is still in this trial. Okay.

No. No. No.

Does he?

[Speaker 1]
No. Well, yeah, according ... No.

Here he's calling the latent seed, the deep seed, just the touch seed. Here, yeah, we're still calling it misunderstanding. But it's not misunderstanding as the first link of the wheel.

Yeah. Okay? And that's what they're trying to teach us.

Okay, now listen. He could have written an essay, which is what they would do, a Western professor would do. Okay, there's different kinds of misunderstanding.

There's a kind that acts as its wheel of life and there's a kind that's just a seed that doesn't act as the first thing in life. But in Buddhist way of education, you say, somebody will come and say the wrong thing and then we have to prove he's wrong. And by this way we learn.

And you learn better. You will learn better. Okay, ready?

Are you telling me it's still the first link? Are you telling me that seed in that arhat's mind is still misunderstanding as the first link of the wheel? And the other guy says, why you say that?

And then we say, because it's a kind of misunderstanding that's not involved with negative emotions. It fits your definition. Okay, why is it not involved with negative emotions?

The guy's an arhat. Okay, got it? You guys okay?

[Speaker 2]
So which part is it here?

[Speaker 1]
Dechir. Okay. Is that...

So are you telling me dertao It's dertao. Are you telling me it's still the first link? Why you say that?

Because it's a kind of misunderstanding but it doesn't have negative... It fits your definition. Then he says, I disagree that it's a kind of misunderstanding that still has negative emotions.

I disagree. That doesn't have negative emotions. I disagree.

And we say, dertao. Yeah, of course it is because it's a shiddu. Okay, now you have to understand in your text will come this famous division.

All obstacles are divided into two kinds. All obstacles, spiritual obstacles has two kinds. Nyundib and shiddu.

Say nyundib, shiddu. Dib means a shadow or an obstacle. Dibma means a shadow.

I can tell you're a thampe and it's very nasty and I'm not going to tell you. But later when we're alone...

[Speaker 2]
Just the guys.

[Speaker 1]
Just the guys. I'm not going any further with that. It means shadow.

I got distracted. Okay, so nyundib and shiddu. Nyundib means obstacle to nirvana.

Something that prevents you from getting rid of all of your negative emotions. Something that stops you from getting rid of your anger, desire and jealousy. For example, If you think your husband is coming from him, you will always get angry.

If you understand he's coming from you, you will blame yourself and you stop angry. So, not understanding that your husband's coming from you is a nyundib. It's an obstacle to nirvana.

It's an obstacle to getting rid of your negative emotions. So unfortunately the adjective in the first kind of obstacle is different from the adjective in the second kind of obstacle. In the first one it's called negative emotion obstacle.

Which means the obstacle is the negative emotion. Or it's an obstacle to getting rid of your negative emotions. But the second one is called shiddu.

It means obstacle to knowing all things. Which is a good thing. So first one is called negative emotion obstacle.

Which means an obstacle that's made of a negative emotion. And in the second one it's an obstacle to learning all things. So it's very bad.

The two adjectives are contradictory. Okay, I'll say it again. The first kind of obstacle is the one created by your negative emotions.

The second obstacle is the one that keeps you from knowing all things. Got it? Two kinds of obstacles.

So here we claim shiddu vimbe chhu. Okay? It is a kind of misunderstanding which is not involved with with a negative emotion.

And I'll give an example. The fact that you cannot see the future ten million years from now. It's a kind of Now we might go to ignorance.

It's a kind of not knowing but it's not anger or it's not jealousy. It's just you can't see ten million years ahead. That's still a kind of marikpa.

So here you might want to say ignorance and then you're going to get in trouble. But let's see what he chooses. shiddu vimbe chhu.

It keeps you from Buddha. It keeps you from knowing all things. What?

That subtle seed in the mind of an arhat who already reached nirvana. He's already in nirvana but he still has some subtle seed and that seed is keeping him from being able to see into the future or all planets or all people's minds. That little seed is he's still an arhat.

He reached nirvana but he cannot see what's happening in Singapore right now. Or Singapore and another planet. He still has this obstacle.

Got it? This is getting very deep right away. I'm sorry.

shiddu vimbe chhu. Are you telling me... Dönä means I'm going back the other guy is going back and he says, you're right, it's link number one.

You're right, it's link number one. If you agree that it's the first link if it's misunderstanding in that sense then it must be a perception. It must be knowing.

So there's a difference between you know, when you study karma when you study all the changing things in the universe in DCI level 7 there's changing things and non-changing things. Changing things divided into three. Physical things, mental things and non-physical, non-mental changing things.

Now, where do you put bhaktya? It stays in the mind but it is not mind. And that's an important thing to learn in Buddhism.

Karmic seed stays in the mind but it's not mind because the definition of mind is a thing that thinks. You see? Seeds don't think.

They stay in the thinking but they're not thinkers. They belong here. They are just energies or potentials but they don't think.

And they don't see things and they don't smell things and they're not aware. The definition of mind is aware. So the seed is in the mind but it's not aware.

Got it? So subtle difference. So we said are you telling me it's aware?

Are you telling me it's aware? Why? Because you said it was the first link.

What did we just learn about the first link? What did we just learn about the first link? It's aware.

It's a state of mind. It's not a seed in the mind. It's a state of mind.

It's active thinking. It is thinking. Ignorance as the cause of suffering is a way of thinking.

It's not a seed in the mind. Got it? It's very subtle.

You learned a lot already. In one debate, you learned a lot. And you're going to have to sit with this.

You cannot learn Buddhism from someone talking. You gotta, three steps. Hear it in the class.

Chew on it. And meditate on it. You will not understand everything in this class by me talking.

You have to do something on your own. You have to meditate. You don't have a choice.

You will never understand this first argument of hundreds unless you go home and talk to a Shintian and like, what the heck? Why we fly here from Indonesia? We could have been having papaya juice.

What the heck he's talking about? And then you have to discuss it. Buddhism cannot be learned in a class.

It requires you to chew. And to meditate. To really get it.

And that's the difference between a Western education and a Buddhist education. They take the freshman class at Serra and, I don't know, every few days, you have to go to the senior class class. They're talking about you're studying geometry and they are talking about calculus.

And you're like, and you go to your teacher and say, why you make me sit in the calculus class? He says, well, what's wrong with that? He says, I didn't understand one thing.

He says, yeah, but you're planning C for four years from now. So that's Buddhist education. You don't get it in a package in the class.

You gotta go home and sweat. And I don't know what the hell he's talking about. I think Geshe Michael's drunk this morning.

You know, it's ignorance, but it's a seed. But ignorance has to be a state of mind, but a seed is not a state of mind. Then you have to chew on it.

And it's nice to do it with somebody else, especially your partner. You can talk about it on the plane. Watch a movie and then turn off the movie and say, by the way, what was Geshe Michael talking about?

OK. Döner means I agree that that seed in the heart's mind is the first link and it is knowing. It is conscious.

It is aware. I agree. The guy changed his mind.

I agree. I agree that the seed is the first link and therefore I agree that the seed is thinking. The seed is thinking.

[Speaker 2]
OK.

[Speaker 1]
OK, ready? Döner Döner Which one are we on? This one?

NYAN GYUR BDAG CHUNG PA'I RGYUD KYI DEN CING CHOS CAN Let's take the habit of seeing things as real which is in the mind of an arhat on the third track. Now he should have said let's take the seed but he said let's take their habit of seeing things wrong, OK? And he threw it in the next line, OK?

So I'm sorry he could have said it easier for you. He could have put BHAG CHAGS here in this sentence. He could have said let's take the seed in that guy's mind but the way he said it and I'm sorry, you have to listen to the tape he said let's take that guy's wrong habit of thinking and the next line he said now the seed for that OK, so really the seed is the example but he didn't mention it in the next line OK, so I'm sorry he should have said it in this line he didn't say OK, let's talk about that seed he said let's talk about his wrong state of mind and then the next sentence he starts with the seed for that OK, got it?

You OK? The seed for it here, GYUR in modern Tibetan means you it's the pronoun you, but in philosophy it means it's it, it, OK? That state of mind BHAG CHAGS OK, that state of mind BHAG CHAGS SHES PA MA YIN PA Good, go up No, it's not it doesn't know anything it can't think SHES PA means thinking mind, state of mind Come on a seed in a guy's mind can't think can't think GYUR ZHIG RDOD PA'I PHYIR because it exists What?

If something exists, it can't think doesn't mind exist OK it means because it exists as a seed OK, sorry it's a weak reason it's not a very satisfying reason

[Speaker 2]
OK

[Speaker 1]
it means because it's a seed

[Speaker 2]
means he already accepts that seed's a seed

[Speaker 1]
because it exists as a seed but he didn't say that he just said because it exists she drew means it exists

[Speaker 2]
but he's still wrong because he's saying that it is thinking, right?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah take the habit of an arhat to hold that things in Madhyamika way are coming from the wrong side the seed for that isn't thinking isn't a thinking thing because it exists but that's not a very good reason he should have said because it's one of those kinds of changing things which is between physical and mental he should have said something like that it would have been more helpful but he just said it exists so can we say that if a seed exists it can't be a thinking thing

[Speaker 2]
no

[Speaker 1]
you can if the definition of seed is a non-thinking thing okay, that's all it's not a very good reason I apologize for Kedrup Dhammadhargi okay, 400 years ago he didn't give us a very good it's not a very satisfying reason

[Speaker 2]
that's our position yeah, it's our position but this is spoken by the other side, right?

[Speaker 1]
this one is spoken well, the other guy said the seed is the other guy said that seed is the first link is an example of the first link and we said, oh, well it must be thinking then, because the first link is always thinking misunderstanding as the first link of the Wheel of Life always means thinking, a thinking thing misunderstanding your husband when you walk in the house and he starts yelling at you

[Speaker 2]
okay

[Speaker 1]
when are we supposed to stop?

[Speaker 2]
this is the time okay, I'm gonna just set you up

[Speaker 1]
for the next one, okay and that's helpful, okay generally when you teach Buddhism don't stop at the end of a section give them a taste of the beginning of the next section and their mind will cook it for the next 24 hours or 48 hours and they'll be better prepared so you never stop a Buddhist teaching in a comfortable place always leave them uncomfortable okay, ready? here we go, first part of the next argument the guy got more sophisticated he's hanging on to his idea but he's being more careful about how he says it, okay something is always the first link something is always the first link if it is a mental function if it is a mental function which is misunderstanding but is not involved with negative emotions I'll say it again something is the first link of the wheel if it's a mental function some activity in the mind which is misunderstanding but is not involved with negative emotions it's a little more it's a little more subtle because he said it's a mental function okay and mental functions are knowing they are included in in knowing things for example anger when you're angry at something there's two things going on you are disliking it and you are aware of it okay, you can't hate somebody unless you dislike you can't have anger towards somebody unless there's two things going on the main mind is aware of them the side mind is dislike them okay sees them as bad so this is an Abhidharma subject that he's gonna teach us in a couple years it's called link linking the emotion is linked to the main mind so he's correcting himself he says okay you brought up this subject of seeds in the mind so I'm gonna change my definition I now state that the thing has to be thinking so we can't use seed against him anymore now we're gonna have to go to some kind of something going on in the mind we can't use seed anymore now that's a very interesting thing so the seed from misunderstanding things is not the first wheel the wheel of light the first link it doesn't cause me to do mistakes like yelling at my husband which is the second link

[Speaker 2]
no it's not the first link I'm sorry

[Speaker 1]
you said it's not the first link because it doesn't know but I'm telling you does it not cause you to make mistakes with your husband

[Speaker 2]
no I'll say it

[Speaker 1]
so it does cause you to make mistakes with your husband

[Speaker 2]
it doesn't

[Speaker 1]
no it doesn't until it opens and in the case of our heart it will

[Speaker 2]
yeah ok

[Speaker 1]
ok I'll teach you another English expression open a can of worms you know it means we're just doing a conversation we're supposed to get more clear but now a hundred other questions came ok Pandora's box I'm pushing you, I'm pushing you way too fast, I'm...

you just were born and I'm asking you to run in the Olympics, and it takes a lot of courage, so thank you for that, yeah. We're discussing physics in a language you never learned yet, you know?