ACI 8 «Смерть и сферы существования», занятие 5

Course #8 - Death and the Realms of Existence
Class #5



Geshe-la: Say {bardo}.

[Class]: {bardo}.

Geshe–la: {bardo}.

[Class]: {bardo}.

Geshe-la: Um, {bar} means in Tibetan between, in-between. {Bardo}. So {bardo}
means the being in-between. In-between what?

[Student]. Life and death.

Geshe-la: Death and death.

[Laughter].

Geshe-la: Ya. Definitely. We’re between birth and death okay?
This is between death and birth okay? Death and rebirth. That’s a {bardo}. Now
sometimes in Tibetan they, the {bardo} is the state, the {bardo} is the, is the state
that the being is in. The being itself is called a {bardowa}. Other names for
{bardowa} are {bar si}. {Bar} means “in-between”. {Si} means ah, “existence” or
“life”. So {bar si} means “the life in-between”. Sometimes they’re called {dri sa}.
Say {dri sa}.

[Class]: {Dri sa}.

Geshe-la: {Dri sa}.

[Class]: {Dri sa}.

Geshe-la: {Dri} means smells. {Sa} means eats. Smell eater okay.          And they,
we’ll talk about it later but it’s a synonym for, all of these mean the same thing.
A {bardowa}, a {bar si}, and a {dri sa} are all different names for the being
between death and rebirth. Everything I say tonight is going to be from ah,
Abhidharmakosha. Who wrote that?
[Student]: Vasubandu.

Geshe-la: Vasubandu. About…

[Class]: 350.

Geshe-la: 350 AD. Okay. Um, we’re going to study the commentary by First
Dalai Lama. Okay. Gyalwa Gendun Drup. Lived about the time of Tsongkapa.
He was a student of Tsongkapa. So that puts him early fourteen hundreds.
Um… so the, your reading is from the First Dalai Lama and he’s commenting
directly. He’s using the words of Vasubandu. And you can see in the readings
how he, he uses the direct words, he explains it exactly as Vasubandu explained
it. And that’s a big point about the {bardo}. Um, there have been a lot of
corruptions about the teachings on the {bardo}. And I thought it was important,
one of the reasons to have this subject in this class is that you get the original
text, you know, this is the real {bardo} teaching. This is Vasubabandhu sixteen
centuries ago collecting the information from the sutras in the Abhidharma. And
it’s very very ah, accurate, and very much ah, the actual teaching. And then after
that time especially in Tibet, ah, there were a lot of corruptions of the {bardo}
teachings, and we believe in our tradition, in our lineage, that for example the
book called the, ah, what’s it called?

[Student]: {Bardo Te Dro}?

Geshe-la: Ya. The Tibetan Book of the Dead, which is {Bardo Te Dro} is a
corruption. We, we believe that it’s ah, erroneous. And ah, we don’t study in
our tradition and, and ah, it’s not corroborated by any of the ah, other texts that
you can study. So as your Tibetan gets better you can begin to distinguish
between the, the accurate texts and the ones that aren’t accurate. There’s, there’s
just this time gap that we’re in right now where you know, we’re the first
Americans to study Tibetan Buddhism, um, anything that’s printed on one of
these long wood blocks we think it must be okay, and we read it and we,
somebody translates it and somebody else re-translates it, and somebody
mistranslates it and then we study it and then it starts to spread and then
somebody puts it in a best seller and then it spreads more and, and ah, and you
have to be really careful so I thought it would be good to, to go to the original –
this is the original text, the Abhidharma text, and, and you can study it from
there. Um, and it’s very important that you pass it on that way. I was in Russia
a lot in the last few years because of, we’re cataloging the manuscripts there
and… they have two hundred thousand Tibetan manuscripts. And they just got
liberated and now they can have any religion they want and everybody is
coming from India, you know. Every weird thing you can imagine is showing
up from India, you know, ah, if you have a Oriental face you know, you can go
to Russia and you can start teaching something and they can’t distinguish
between good or bad or, you know. And when I met the Russians I said ‘You’re
just like us in the nineteen sixties’ you know. Every type of Tibetan showed up in
America and you know, a lot of them even showing up now, ah, there’s one I
can think of who’s, he’s, he’s, he’s from a village nearby the monastery and he’s
the father of one of the kids in my class and, and you know he just showed up in
America and started teaching, you know and ah you know, he wears a nice thing
and he’s ah, looks Tibetan, and ah you gotta be careful. And I think Americans
now are more, I mean if, if someone starts to teach something strange, or do
something strange ah, or something improper, then Americans have reached a
point of sophistication where they say ‘well, you know that’s not Buddhism,
that’s, there’s, there’s no Buddhism there. Where did you get that?’ You know,
and ah, you have to be able to go back to the original text. You have to find ah,
it’s very easy to – people are craving to know about death. In Russia, people are
craving for any kind of religion. So people who are hungry for something, then
they’re more willing to eat anything you know [laughs]. So, people are very
concerned about death, people are worried about their death and people tend to
grasp – especially if they have some disease or something - that they’re grasping
on to anything they hear about death, ah, and then if you read some of those
books you’ll see that they even contradict each other so something must be
incorrect there. So its good I think to get the real… this is Vasubandu sixteen
centuries ago, quoting the Buddha directly and this is the First Dalai Lama
explaining that. Ah, and I think you will be among the first really educated
Buddhists and then hopefully you can help stamp out this ah, strange things that
are, that are being taught and you can say you know, ‘where did you get that?’
You know, ‘where, where’s that come from?’ And the person will say ‘well, I
heard it somewhere’ you know. And you say well ‘show me that text’ you
know. ‘Did Vasubandu say that? Did the Buddha say that?’ You know, where’s
that taught? ‘Show me where that’s taught’. And they’ll, and they won’t be able
to show you because it’s not taught. And, and as you get more sophisticated,
you, you’re the ones who have to try to help you know, keep the lineages pure.
Keep the information pure. If it’s corrupted five per cent in each generation then
within, you know, a hundred years or so, which is nothing in the length of
Buddhism, it gets totally strange and totally mixed up and totally wrong. I mean
it’s very important for you to keep the information clear, and, and pure, and,
and not to add anything of you own ideas and not to leave out anything that’s
not too popular in that generation. You have to teach it like it is, ah, and not
corrupt it. Because if you corrupt it one per cent then, then two thousand years
from now God knows what it would look like you know. It might get, be very
strange.       Ah, so you’re going to get the {bardo}instructions from the
Abhidharma. This is what the Abhidharma says, and that’s all the Abhidharma
says. Um, are there other teachings about the {bardo} that are not covered in
this short verses? There are, and there are authentic ones, and they’re secret.
And we’re not allowed to teach them in public. And ah, that’s called tantra. And
ah, if you study this properly and if you do the necessary preparation in the
proper way, then ah, then someday ah, a lama will grant you those teachings.
They’re very secret. Ah, a Lama is not allowed to teach them publicly to a group
ah, without each person being prepared. And so if you bump into somebody
who is willing to teach it to a group its not tantra anymore [laughs]. It’s not
correct. It’s not proper. Ah, the, there’s, tantra means secret. And the word
means secret and it’s secret. And ah, it will be passed on to you when the time
comes. And that’s, that’s the way tantra works. That’s what the word tantra
means. So, and the Lama who teaches it openly to people is breaking tantra and
its, its not tantra anymore, so, ya.

[Stilwell]: Can you say what the title of the um, tantric teaching is? Are you
allowed to say that?

Geshe-la: It comes in a... I, I can’t say much about it. But it, it comes in a lot of
texts. It’s, it’s, it’s covered in a lot of texts and in very very wonderful ways.
And you have to learn it. You know tantra is not something to be afraid of; it’s
something you have to learn. But you have to be prepared for it properly. And,
and then when you learn it, it will be wonderful, and fantastic, and, and , and
beautiful and pure. Um, and you must learn it some day but you have to learn it
in the proper time and under the proper circumstances. So everything I’m going
to talk about tonight is straight from Vasubandu. Ah, there are more details,
and there are more things to say, but they’re not public and you can’t teach them
publicly. Um, that’s all. So we’ll start out with the {bardo}. {Bardos}, {bardowas}
are {dzu kye}. That’s the first thing you can say. Say it. {dzu kye}.

[Class]: Dzu kye.

Geshe-la: Dzu kye.

[Class]: Dzu Kye.
Geshe-la: Dzu kye was one of the four kinds of, ah, births. Do you, I don’t
know if you remember.

[Student]: Moisture?

Geshe-la: Naa. That’s {ku sherap dra}??? {Dzu, dzu kye} means you’re born
complete, and that’s how a {bardowa} is born. Ah, a {bardowa} is a separate
birth, and they, right after they die in this life, then they’re, you’re reborn as a,
you take a very short, a brief rebirth as a, as a {bardowa}. As a {bardo} being.
And you, you take birth there complete. In other words you, you don’t have a
{bardo} mommy and a {bardo} Poppy. Papa and [laughs] you know, you know,
they don’t have to change your {bardo} diapers and things like that.

[Laughter]

Geshe-la: You’re just born there, complete. You know. Ah, you just take birth
there as a {dzu kye}. Um, Vasubandu… ya?

[Stilwell]: What is {dzu kye}?

Geshe-la: {Dzu kye} means, literally it means ah, born miraculously. But what it,
the meaning of it is born complete.

[Stilwell]: Which is which?

Geshe-la: Ah, {dzu} is miraculous and {kye} is born. {Dzu tru} refers to like
when the Buddha shows miraculous feats or something, walks on water or
something, that’s a {dzu}. Um, people who teach fake {bardo} teachings are {sok
dzu}. Meaning illusion. You know, so the word {dzu} means ah, has all these
connotations of illusion or miracles and things like that. Uh, {dzu kye}. There
are uh, Vasubandu goes through the exercise to prove the existence of a
{bardowa}. And this is, these are the proofs from scripture. First he tries to
prove it logically and then he tries to prove it with scripture. Ah, this is very
common in Buddhism. In a debate, in a monastery, or when you’re teaching
somebody, you have to be able to show them good reasons why this things
exists, and then you have to be able to show them that somebody who knew
what they were talking about said that they exist. Ah, the first, the second kind
of proof, which is scriptural proof, is called {lung} and second kind of proof is
called {rik}. {Rik pa}. So if you’re a very good monk you might be called
{Jhampa Lu Rik}. Which is the name of the monk, that, the nice monk out in
New Jersey. Jhampa’s last name is {Lung Rik}. {Lung rik} means scriptural proof
and logical proof. So {lu} means scriptural proof and {rik} means, {rik pa} means
logical proof. We’re going to do the, the {rik pa} first. The word {rik pa} is this…
this {rik pa} means logic. Reasoning. Then the, the a direct quotation from the
Abhidharma is, say “{dru gyun}”

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Dang}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Chu tun chir}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Sipa}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Che le}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Chu wan yin}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Dru gyun dang}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Chu tun chir}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Dru gyun}. That’s the, the beginning of Vasubandu’s logical proof.
He’s talking about {dru}. Ah, a {dru} means ah, a grain, like a grain of corn or a
grain of rice, or something like that. A grain… {Gyun}, {gyun} means a stream.
Or a continuum. A stream or a continuum. An the example, a metaphor, an
example of {dru gyun}, {dru gyun} a steam of a, of, of, of grain. What that
means is that ah, you have a seed here you know like, ah, I don’t know, I like
popcorn personally….

(Draws on board)

…that’s a, a piece of grain okay. And then uh, much later (draws on board)
there’s going to be ah, you know one of these huge ah, this is a corn plant okay.
And this has to get to there. Um, the piece of corn, the piece of popcorn or
whatever, the grain, is going to be turning into a, a fully fledged plant. But, it
can’t do that without something else in-between. What’s in-between?

[Class]: Inaudible

Geshe-la: Well there’s a, a little sprout, okay? So ah, Vasubandu’s text is, is hard
to understand and you have to read some of the famous commentaries. The
best commentary here is a Sakya commentary.               And we, we use that
commentary. It is a very famous commentary. But what he’s saying is that you
can’t go from grain to plant without a sprout. There has to be something in-
between the grain and the plant. And this is the meaning of Vasubandu’s root
text. Vasubandu’s root text is very, it’s very short. Because it was meant to be
memorized and passed down by memory. You know, basically it was, it was, it
was, it was invented before paper. So you know people passed it on by, by
memory. And we had to memorize it in the monastery. Um, it’s from the third
chapter of the Abhidharma. So {dru gyun} and {chu ten gyun} means, it goes
from a grain to a plant there must be something in-between called a sprout.
What’s that got to do with {bardo}, okay? Ah, {bardo} means that your going to
die on Sixth Street okay, and you’re going to show up, let’s say in uh, I won’t use
Howell, let’s say uh…

[Student]: Hong Kong.

Geshe-la: Kansas. And the point is that uh, the continuum of you, the
continuum of your personality actually does have to go from Sixth Street to
Kansas somehow. And that’s in the {bardo}. In other words the {bardo} is a
state where you pass from the location of your death to the location of your
rebirth. So it’s during the {bardo} that there has to be this sprout. So you know,
if you study Vasubandu’s proof, it’s interesting, he’s not trying to prove the next
birth. I mean that’s the first thing. He’s assuming you believe in a next birth.
He’s assuming that you understand already that you’re going to be born
somewhere else. And you have to get there. There has to be, you have to go
from here to there. And that, that, the time and the place, the realm where you
travel from Sixth Street in New York City to Kansas is called the {bardo}. And
therefore he says the {bardo} must exist. And, and Westerners find this proof,
they don’t like this proof much because, remember, he’s not trying to prove the
existence of the rebirth. That’s left to who?

[Stilwell]: Proof of logic, past and future lives.

Geshe-la: No. Who did that? Dharmakirti. Right? You guys studied it. Right?
[laughs]. Dharmakirti undertook the proof of proving that, and we did it at the
Explorer’s Club. Right? I mean so, Dharmakirti, ah ah, we had a whole class
about it. It takes about eight weeks to prove it. If you’re in a rush you can do it
at the Explorer’s Club in an hour and a half. Ah but, he’s not trying to prove the
existence of the next life. If you want to know about that you have to come back
later. Okay. That’s in the sixth and seventh century. Ah, and he does prove it.
And he proves it quite nicely. Ah, and it’s good enough for foreigners. I mean if
you study it, you’ll, you’ll understand it. And you’ll be able to accept it, but it
takes time. But remember, he’s not doing that. He’s just trying to prove that
between dying on Sixth Street and being reborn in Kansas, there’s got to be
some intermediate step where you actually travel to Kansas. Where you get to
Kansas. Ya…

[Stilwell]:   Is he proving a {bardo} being or a {bardo} realm or what is he
proving?

Geshe-la: Both. I mean he doesn’t, I don’t think he really distinguishes between
the two. But the proof is of the {bardo} being. He’s interested in proving the
{bardo} being. But you have to have a, a form. You have to have some kind of
existence. You have to have some kind of a body in which you travel from Sixth
Street to Kansas to be reborn. Okay? Ya.

[Stilwell]: Could it not, could it not be an instantaneous rebirth without an
intermediate {bardo}?

Geshe-la: Ah! That’s what Kachikma??? says. Okay? He says why can’t you just
die here and take birth there. And just be there. Ah, this is called {chele jungwa}
The two lines go like this {Dru gyun dunchun tun chir }??? He says it the same
thing as the, as the piece of grain, the stream of the piece of grain. And in the
next line he says ‘{Sipa chele jungwa nyin}. ‘{Sipa chele jungwa nyin}. means
“No, John Stilwell, it doesn’t just happen like that, ah

[Laughter]

[Stilwell]: Could you elaborate please?

Geshe-la: ‘{Sipa chele jungwa nyin}. He says it in the next line. In-between
those two lines somebody says ‘well why can’t you just die on Sixth Street and
then show up in Kansas, a few minutes later’? You know, why do you need to
travel to Kansas? Why do you have to say that there is some kind of body or
existence in which you, you go to Kansas and then ah, are reborn and, and
Vasubandu says it doesn’t happen like that. You don’t just disappear here and
show up there. He says the continuum is not like that. The continuum means
that one personality has to continue physically from here over to there and there
has to be a continuum. He says it cannot take place just {chepa}. {Che}, {che}
means cut off. {Chele jungwa} means you can’t have a continuum where it just
stops here and then continues in another location. And then the guy says,

[Student]: Inaudible

Geshe-la: Ah {chele}, {che}, {chepa} means cut off. Like Dorje Chepa is the same
verb. {Chepa} means to cut. Diamond Cutter Sutra. So {che} means it’s not like
you just stop here and show up over there. It’s impossible. He says, so {chele}
means “just discontinue”.       You stop here, you die.        And then totally
independently somebody shows up in Kansas at the, at the next instant. He says
that’s not possible.

[Student]: So {jungwa} means…

Geshe-la: {Chele jungwa} means, {jungwa} means to, to show up somewhere
else. And the root text says, “{sipa chele jungwa nyin}”. What’s {min}?

[Students]: Not.

Geshe-la: {Min} means it’s not that way. Okay, it’s not the way it works.
Because in-between there somebody said ‘Hey Vasubandu, can’t you just show
up in Kansas, I mean die here and show up in Kansas the next moment?’ He
says ‘no’. A continuum of a personality, there has to be someone traveling from
here to there. There has to do that. Ya…
[Student]: You taught us in the karma class that if you do one of the five
misdeeds like killing your mother…

Geshe-la: Ah, that’s a great question. We’re going to cover it [laughs]. It’s a,
were going to get there. Somebody attacks Vasubandu with that also. And he,
he, he talks about it.

[Stilwell]: It, it seems almost like a question of semantics because if you say there
is a continuum you could take any discreet (snaps) like that, you know? And
you could continue to break it down into smaller and smaller parts, and you
could continue to call those smaller parts you’re breaking down, the {bardo}.
You know, even if it’s like a millisecond, you know. Call that millisecond the
{bardo} because it was a millisecond it was a continuum and you went from one
place to the other. You know what I mean?

Geshe-la: Ah, We’ll talk about it. We’ll, we’ll get there. Ya?

[Student]: Geshe-la I’m confused about how that um, example of the grain to the
sprout to the full plant constitutes a logical proof.

Geshe-la: Ya. He says, no, it’s in, met… he’s giving a logical example. It’s like
ah, {drak shen} ???       It’s a logical, it’s a syllogism. You say ah, sound is
impermanent because it was produced. It’s like a pot. And {bunba shin} is called
a {pey tun}. {Pey tun} ??? in Buddhist logic and syllogisms means a, a totally
equivalent example. So he’s giving a {pey tun}??? {Dru gyun dan chu tun
chir}??? So {tun}, {tun} means he’s giving a, a totally analogous example. It’s a
total analogy, he says. No more can a fully developed tree pop out of an acorn
than could a person show up in Kansas just after dying on Sixth Street.
Impossible. There has to be this gradual continuum between the two. You have
to travel from Sixth Street to Kansas. Ah, ya?

[Student]: But we’re not talking about physical objects, but mental objects.

Geshe-la: We are talking about physical.

[Student]: Because when the ??? physical location….

Geshe-la: Um, well

[Student]: I mean or, or your mental…
Geshe-la: Ya. And we’ll talk about it. Ah, you actually take on a new physical
body. Ah, unless you are born in the…?

[Class]: Formless realm.

Geshe-la: Formless realm. And there are no {bardos} for the formless realm,
okay. I mean that’s one place where you don’t have a {bardo}. Because there is
no place to get to.

[Student]: But wouldn’t there be…

Geshe-la: You just, you just become where you are. You know, you enter the
formless realm wherever you die. So there is no {bardo} for a forml… for, the
scriptures says there is no {bardo} for the formless realm. You don’t have to
enter a {bardo} existence to get to the formless realm because there is no location
for the formless realm.

[Stilwell]: So, so what do you call that flash from when you die to when you
show up in the…

Geshe-la. There’s no flash, it’s just… I mean, they debate this in the monastery,
you’ll, you’ll never finish. That’s a proof of emptiness actually, okay. [laughs].
It’s a projection okay? If you want the…

[Student]: Which is? Which is the projection? What is?

Geshe-la: That, that, that one moment you’re alive here and the next moment
you’re dead, you’re alive in, in the formless realm. I mean, where do you
become a formless realm being and where do you end being a human being?
It’s a, it’s a moment of your own projection. Ultimately. It’s the only way to
explain it….

[Stilwell]: It’s a continuum of your projection…

Geshe-la: If you keep splitting seconds which you can do, you’ll never find a
second when you do become a formless realm being and that is a kind of a proof
for emptiness. But we, but that’s another subject [laughs]. Ya?

[Student]: If you can have this continuum than why aren’t you remember your
previous lives?

Geshe-la: We’ll get into it. We’ll talk about it. Um, it’s a good question. It’s a
good question. So that’s a {chele jungwa nyin}. He says it doesn’t take place just
cut off. You can’t take off. And then somebody makes a cool ah, somebody
debates Vasubhandhu, and he says it’s like ah,… [pause] Say, “{che shin}”.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Suk ngen}

[Class]: Repeats

Geshe-la: {Che shin}

[Class]: Reapeats.

Geshe-la: {Suk ngen}

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: Um, {suk ngen} means a reflection in a mirror. And a {che shen} is the
thing that’s being reflected in the mirror. So we’ll call it the image okay? So the
{che shin} for example would be my, my color and my shape. Because I’m
standing in front of a mirror. And the {suk ngen} would be my reflection in the
mirror. So somebody comes up to Vasubandu and, and debates with him. He
says, ah, ‘an image can go on, can have a continuum in a mirror, but they could
be separated by a great distance so that I can be continued in the mirror, my
color and shape can continue in the mirror at a distance of a hundred feet. It’s
not like I have to, there has to be a {bardo} between there’. It can {chele jungwa
nyin } you know. He’s debating back to Vasubandu. You could have a
continuum that stops here and continues twenty feet away. You don’t have to
have a, a {bardo}. You don’t have to have some intermediate state between the
two. Because when I stand in front of a mirror, I know my continuum comes up
the stairs, walks over towards there behind Janet unclear and then suddenly I’m
in front of the mirror and then twenty feet away my, my shape and colour
continue. So he says ‘You’re wrong Vasubandu. It’s not like, there’s nothing
going on between me and the mirror. You know. It’s not like I had to walk up
to the mirror and stand and touch the mirror in order to be reflected there. My
image continues up the stairs, goes to the front of the mirror, and then suddenly
twenty feet away - there is no continuum between them, I appear in the mirror’.
And then Vasubandu has to deal with this objection. First he says ‘It’s not like
you’re in the mirror’, because according to, according to Buddhist theory,
according to all physical theory, no two physical bodies can occupy the same
space. That’s the first problem. He says ‘that’s not ME in the mirror. That’s just
some shape and some – it’s a reflection. It’s not me’. You know, it’s not like
Michael Roach is inside the mirror, because Michael Roach can’t fit in the mirror.
Because the mirror is in the mirror. The mirror is occupying the mirror’s space.
And Michael Roach can’t fit in the mirror’s space. Two physical bodies cannot
occupy the same space at the same time. That’s a rule of all physics and it
happens to be a rule of Buddhist physics. Um, this eraser and this pen cannot
occupy the same exact space at the same time. It’s impossible. Two, two discreet
physical entities can’t occupy the same physical space at the same time. Concrete
entities. Ah, so first of all he says ‘that’s not me in the mirror That’s not my
continuum. That’s just a, a reflection’, and that, and secondly he says, ‘it’s not
caused by the previous moment of me’. We talked about that at the Explorer’s
club, you know. It’s not the continuation of Michael Roach. Michael Roach is
continuing over there in front of the mirror.           That’s ah, some kind of
circumstance where colors and shapes are showing up in certain glass. It’s not
the continuation of Michael Roach. That is caused by a good mirror, certain
physical properties of the mirror, and me standing in front of the mirror. That’s
the cause of, of the reflection in the mirror. But the cause of me is the me of the
moment before. And the cause of the mo… of me five minutes from now is
going to be the me now. And that’s the real continuum. That’s, that’s where
Michael Roach is continuing. And Michael Roach at five o’clock is causing
Michael Roach at six o’clock and he’s causing Michael Roach at seven o’clock.
That’s the continuum. The thing in the mirror is just a reflection of, of some kind
of color and shapes and things like that. It’s not Michael Roach’s continuum. ‘So’
Vasubandu says, ‘You’re example is…

[Student]: Invalid.

Geshe-la: It’s invalid. It’s not analogous. It’s not, it’s not, it’s not the same thing.
Ya?

[Student]: Is it, is it because time is not included and you’re only talking space
when you’re taking there?

Geshe-la: Partly. Partly. I mean, you have to get there. That’s not me in the
mirror, you see. It’s not my continuum.
[Student]: What about the redness of your, of your robe, what’s that
continuum?

Geshe-la: (wrong answer buzzer sound).. He’d say no. He’d say it’s not,
because the redness in my robe is caused by the redness of the robe of the
moment before, and is the cause of the redness of the robe of the moment after.
And what’s appearing in the mirror, I’m still, the cause of the redness of my robe
is the redness of my robe of the moment before. But the cause of the, of the
redness of the robe in the mirror is, is a different kind of cause, it’s not what we
call a continuum cause. It’s, it’s a, it’s, it’s the condition – two conditions… of a, of
a mirror that has certain reflective properties, and the presence of, of this redness
in front of it. So those are like two conditions that by some kind of coincidence
are causing an appearance of redness there. But the cause of the redness of, this
redness of my robe is the redness of the robe of the moment before. And what
it’s causing is the redness of the robe of the moment after. In the same location.

[Student]: (Unclear) the same clothes, unless you were blind?

Geshe-la: Ah, the reason they appears red to you is because of the nature of
light. But the reason there is a redness here is that there was a redness with the
moment before. And those are different kinds of causes. You have to study
second chapter, and ah, they’re called {du tun gi kyen} This is {du tun gyi}.
There is a cause for the, there’s something which turns into the redness of my
robe from the moment behind it. And that’s different from what brought about
the redness in the mirror. There’s, because, what brought about the redness in
the mirror was not dye imparted to a thing continuing on through time. It was
the condition of the, of the clear mirror and something presented in front of it.
Those two con… – two conditions as opposed to a single entity which turns into
that in the next moment, and then in the next moment turns into it again, like
that. It’s, it’s, it’s two different kinds of causes. Ya?

[Student]: I accept this argument but I’m a little bit, I wonder, don’t you also
need in both cases to factor in the consciousness of the being that’s perceiving all
of that?

Geshe-la: Now you’re talking ah, Madhyamika. We’re in Abhidharma. You
have to put on you’re Abhidharma hat okay? [laughs]. You know, what is the
ultimate cause? I mean, it’s a different thing. The ultimate cause of each is
maybe very similar. But its not, we’re in Abhidharma school and we’re
discussing whether a {bardo} can happen.

[Stilwell]: It sounds like semantical differences because if you, if you take that
we’re a, a, a mind stream, a mental continuum, eternally lasting and, and you
know, and if you call these qualities the human and these qualities the {bardo}
being, you know, essentially you just have this continuum happening and at
some, some, conglomeration of conditions you call human and some other
conglomeration of conditions you call {bardo}, and some other conglomeration
of conditions you call pleasure beings. But it’s all the same condition which
you’re calling different things.

Geshe-la: You’re saying that ah, because it’s ah, because it’s all nominal its not
real.

[Stilwell]: No, I’m not saying it’s not real, I’m saying it’s, it’s real, but all this is
primarily nominal, really We’re just talking about how we’re, how we’re
naming stuff. How we’re naming the qualities of human, that’s all. It seems to
me.

Geshe-la: Ya, I mean you could say ah, the, the change from happiness to
suffering as your perceptions change is just a, an appellation…

[Stilwell]: A what?

Geshe-la: It’s just ah, naming it something different. It’s just new data called by
a different name.

[Stilwell]: Ya.

Geshe-la: That happens to be all it is. But it hurts.

[Laughter]

[Stilwell]: That’s valid… I’m not trying to say…

Geshe-la: And that’s the key, it hurts. And, and so what’s, what’s the use of,
what’s the use of looking at this continuum and saying this part is called human,
and this called, this part is called {bardo}? Mainly, it’s because if you understand
it properly you can get out of it. If you divide it that way, if you think of it that
way, and you study it that way, and you analyze why it occurs, you can escape
it. You can escape having to divide it that way. By being forced by your
projections to divide it that way. Which hurts. You know, that’s all.

[Fran]: You mentioned that, ah, these shrouds in the {bardo} is physical. But the
body dies and disintegrates so where does this physicality come from um,
before. What’s it’s contain of that gets to…

Geshe-la: You take on a new body. And we’ll talk about it. The moment you
enter the {bardo} you’re taking on a new body.

[Student]: It seems that trying to avoid this ah, gap between one life and another
we create {bardo} but then we have created by this effort two gaps – between
life and {bardo} and between {bardo} and life. So you didn’t solve the problem
you just…

[Laughter]

Geshe-la: Ya, ya, ya. The fact is that your karma when you die in this life will
force you to perceive yourself going into the {bardo} and will force you to
perceive yourself coming out of the {bardo} into a new birth. It will force you.
You won’t have a choice. And, and, a, the experience of going through that and
of coming into a new birth, and then being young, and then getting old, and
then having disease and then dying again and having those six sufferings, is, it
hurts. It, it hurts. And, and it has a cause and you can stop that cause if you
understand it properly. And that’s all. Ah, we want to avoid that pain. That’s
the purpose of studying really. And we want to help other people avoid that
pain. And so it is artificial distinction but our mind is forced to make it and it
hurts. And ah, we have to find a way to stop that. That’s all. It is artificial. But it
hurts. Okay. That’s all. As much as life itself.

[Student]: Why would it even have to be in that order? I mean why would old
age have to come after your…

Geshe-la: It doesn’t have to. I mean if you have some kind of karma, you could
age first and get younger later. Okay. Because things are empty. But that’s a,
don’t get, don’t get profound on us. In fact, that’s maybe a, a goal. [pause] And
it’s an important question, I mean, she asked, you know, why do you have to
get young before you get old. Why couldn’t it just be the reverse? And um, I
mean that is, I mean ultimately if you collected certain kinds of karma, very
powerful karma, then in this same life, which is one of the three types of karma,
ah, you could force you to perceive yourself getting younger or healthier and
entering a different kind of body. Like some kind of a…you know, a Tara body
or something like that. And that is the whole point of the secret practice. That’s
the whole point of studying Buddhism. So ya, very possible [laughs]. Okay. But
that’s, that’s a long story. Say “{Sipa}”

[Class]: {repeats}.

Geshe-la: {Dun}.

[Class]: {repeats}.

Geshe-la: {Tenpay}.

[Class]: {repeats}.

Geshe-la: {Do}.

[Class]: {repeats}.

Geshe-la: {Sipa}.

[Class]: {repeats}.

Geshe-la: {Dun}.

[Class]: {repeats}.

Geshe-la: {Tenpay}.

[Class]: {repeats}.

Geshe-la: {Do}.

[Class]: {repeats}.

Geshe-la: Ah, Vasubandu now moves on to scriptural proof. He says, so I mean
what is ah , Americans don’t like logical proofs much. It doesn’t, you know, it
doesn’t seem like you’re going to be able to go to work tomorrow and say ‘hey,
you know what, {bardo} beings really exist, because last night I heard this logical
proof – just listen. You know, because seeds grow into plants well there has to
be a {bardo} you know’. And ah, people are going to laugh at you and say
‘come on’, you know [Laughter] but you have to think about it. Ah a lot of your
resistance to it is, is cultural you know, and you have to think about it you know.
Ah, there does happen to be a {bardo} and this actually does prove it and actually
you can’t disprove it. Ah, you, you will never will be able to disprove it. ‘Cause
ah, ah, actually there is. And you can see that at a certain point in meditation.
You will reach a point in your meditations when you see a {bardo}. And you will
be, and you will see your future lives. Then you can work backwards later on.
You can say ‘hey, you know what? No one can prove me wrong’. And go
around, you know, New York and ask everybody, “Prove me wrong” you
know. “Prove there’s no {bardo}’. And ah, they can’t do it. Because there
happens to be. And it’s the same with future lives. I mean it’s, it’s interesting.
And you will get to a point in your practice where that will occur. And you will,
it will occur to you that you could walk up to people and say, you know “prove
to me there’s not future lives”. And they’ll say ‘oh you stop moving when you
die’ And say ‘well, what kind of proof is that’ you know. What does it mean
when the mind goes or how does that prove that the mind is dead? Just because
the body stops moving. I mean when the car stops is the driver dead? You
know, I mean, you know, ah…

[Laughter]

You know, it doesn’t prove anything. Ah, but we’re just culturally, you know,
we grew up thinking something else. But, but, it’ll take, it’ll, it’ll come in your
mind. And then one day in meditation you’ll see it directly, you won’t have any
doubts about it. But, it takes time to, to grow in your mind and has to cook in
your mind. And it will. And there will come a day when it makes sense. And
then later on there’ll come a day when you see your future lives, directly. With
correct and accurate perception and then you’ll know. Um... in fact until that
point in Buddhism you’re not allowed to get up and say ‘I know there’s a future
life’. You can just say this, this proof makes sense and the Buddha said it and we
have to think about it and meditate on it and then maybe we can perceive it
directly. Ah, {sipa} means ah, existence or kind of being. Kind of being. {Dun}
means seven. Seven types. {tenpay} means to teach. And {do} means a sutra.
So there’s this sutra of the Buddha, the Buddha’s own speech, called ‘the Sutra
Where the Buddha Taught the Seven Types of Beings’. And among those seven
is {bardo}. Okay, so I mean, if, if you’re, if you’re among Buddhas, you know, if
you’re sitting at the Three Jewels coffee shop, to open soon…
[Laughter]

ah, so somebody says I’m a Buddhist, and you say ‘Do you believe in {bardo}?’
and they say ‘No’, and you say ‘well look, here, the Buddha said that a {bardo}
exists’. I mean if you accept a Buddha you have to accept that he said that. I
mean, Americans are not too cool on, I mean, we don’t like to hear that. You
know. The Buddha said so. You know. But it actually among Buddhists, it is, it
is supposed to be, if you can find a, an authoritative sutra where the Buddha said
‘{bardo} exists’ then that’s one reason to accept it. And we, we studied, ah, why
that’s the case in the other class, in the Dharmakirti class. It boils down to, if you
have a being who speaks for fifty years teachings, and they are recorded in
fifteen hundred separate sutras, and there is not a single case in those fifteen
hundred sutras where you can prove that he lied or that he spoke anything that
was less than absolute truth, then with regard to the things that you cannot
understand directly yourself, he’s probably right. I mean that’s, that’s part of the
proof but we don’t have to get into it today. Then there’s another sutra where
the Buddha gives three conditions for a human to enter a womb. He gives three
conditions that have to be present for a human being to enter a womb. And that
is to Vasubandu and to Buddhists, is considered another proof that the Buddha
believed in the {bardo}. {Bardo} beings, okay.

[Stilwell]: What is the connection between those two? The womb, birth, the
womb and the {bardo}?

Geshe-la: Ah, we’ll get there. It’s coming right now. [pause] Say, {ma- rung}.



[Class]: Repeats

Geshe-la: {Datsen den}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la. {Ma-rung}.

[Class]: Repeats

Geshe-la: {Datsen den}.

[Class]: Repeats.
Geshe-la: These are the three conditions that must be present for a human being
to enter a womb birth, okay? First condition is this one, {ma-rung datsen den}.
{Ma-rung} means someone who is fit to be a mother, I mean like a female, okay.
A woman human has to be there. Someone who’s in, in a condition to be, is
eligible to be a mother, okay. {Ma-rung}. Physically in a condition. And {datsen
den} means, um, ‘still menstruating’. {Da} means “a month” and {tsen} means
“the mark of the month”. And so she, she has to be a woman who, who’s,
who’s still in menstruation. Who’s still menstruating, okay.

[Student]: Does this include animals and um…

Geshe-la: Doesn’t… I believe it’s says human womb birth. Um, it gonna make
sense when we get there.

[Student]: whispering to another student:

[Stilwell]: Michael, did you say what {den} was? What…

Geshe-la: {Den} means possesses. So literally it says possesses the sign of the
month, meaning still menstruating, okay? Say {pama}.

[Class]: Repeats

Geshe-la: {Chak shing}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Trepa}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Pama}.

[Class]: Repeats

Geshe-la: {Chak shing}.

[Class]: Repeats.
Geshe-la: {Trepa}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Pama} means, ah, father and mother. Papa and Mama. It means the
same in almost every language, I don’t know. {Pama} means mother…, father
and mother. {Chak} means “they have desire towards each other”. {Shing}
means “and”. {Trepa} means “they make sexual contact”. Okay. [pause] Say
{orisa}.

[Class]: Repeats

Geshe-la: {Nyewar}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Nepa}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Orisa}

[Class]: Repeats

Geshe-la: {Nyewar}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Nepa}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Orisa} you’ve had before.

[Student]: Smell eater?

Geshe-la: Smell eater, okay. [laughs] {Orisa} meaning “a {bardo} being”. A
being in the {bardo}. A {bardo} being. {Nyewar nepa} means “must be in the, in
the immediate vicinity”. Must be in the immediate vicinity. Of the parents at
that moment. So when the Buddha, when Lord Buddha described how a being is
born into a womb, a human being, he said there has to be these three things
present. These three conditions must be present. There has to be a, a woman
who’s, who’s fit physically to be a mother, who’s menstruating, still
menstruating. There has to be a man and a woman who have desire towards
each other and have sexual contact, and then there must be a {bardo} being in
the immediate vicinity to enter the womb. And, and that Vasubandu says
proves by scripture the existence of, of a {bardo} being. Okay? Um, ya…

[Student]: Um, what are two... [unclear]

Geshe-la: I don’t know, he doesn’t get into it. I think ah, [Laughter] [unclear]…

[Students]: What was the question?

Geshe-la: She said what about in the case where, maybe, someone doesn’t have
desire. I dunno. Maybe there’s a little bit.

[Students]: Ya, or artificial insemination. Test tube babies. [Laughter].

[Stilwell]: How does that prove the existence of a {bardo} being?

Geshe-la: Well, because…

[Laughter]

…scripturally. Scriptural proof. If you are a Buddhist. If you are already a
Buddhist. Ah, then if the Buddha comes up, like if you…

[Student]: Same as point number one.

Geshe-la: …if you have some kind of extraordinary faith in the Dalai Lama
because of all the things he’s ever taught, that you’ve ever heard were absolutely
true, even the deep things. Everything he’s ever said was absolutely true, then
you go up to the Dalai Lama and then you say ‘By the way, how does someone
get born into a womb?’ And he says ‘Well, you need this and this and a {bardo}
being’. And then you say ‘well, you mean you believe in {bardo} beings? He
says, ‘Ya sure’. And then for a Buddhist, for someone who already believes in
the Dalai Lama, that’s, that’s proof. What it, and, and this is a whole study when
you get into the study of perceptual theory in Buddhism, which is a long long
story, but basically, it’s proving and that’s the basis of scriptural proof. And
that’s difficult for Westerners. And that’s okay. You don’t have to, you know,
quit the class because you can’t accept this scripture. You know, but the point is
that as you study more and more Buddhism and become more and more
amazed about the deep realities revealed by it, you will start to believe that if a
Buddha said something existed, it’s probably there. Ah, and that’s the basis of
scriptural proof. Um, and they’re not very satisfying for a Westerner. I mean
the proofs so far, the logical ones and the scriptural ones, are not normally very
satisfying for a Westerner. They, they are not illogical. They are logical. But
they are, they’re difficult for Westerners and you just need to cook it. Maitreya
says ah, if you can’t accept it right now just shelve it for awhile. You know, don’t
deny it. Because that would also be an error. But be aware that these are the
proofs that are given in scripture, put it there, think about it, and then consider it
later when you know more. That’s, that’s the general advice. Two more points
about {bardowas} and then we’ll take a break. Um…[pause]

Geshe-la: Say {bardor}.

[Class]:   Repeats

Geshe-la: {Davva}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Bardor}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Davva}.

[Class]: Repeats.

Geshe-la: {Davva} means to pass beyond. Pass beyond means to enter Nirvana.
To enter Nirvana. {Bardor} with a {r} on it means in the {bardo} state. There are
generally speaking five kinds of, five situations where you can enter Nirvana
and one of them is called {bardor davva}. Which means you enter Nirvana while
you are in the {bardo}. And that was taught by the Buddha also. So therefore
the Buddha believed there was a …{bardo} or he wouldn’t go through talking
about how you can reach Nirvana in a {bardo} stage. Is it common? Is it the
way you and I want to do it? Should we wait and hope that it happens then
when it doesn’t happen now? Don’t bet on it! Stupid, okay? You’re healthy.
You’re strong. You have all you need to eat. You have a nice place to meditate.
You have teachings. You have dharma friends. Everything’s perfect right now.
The Dalai Lama is around in the world. Do it now, you know. The, the chances
that you’re going to be able to collect your thoughts together properly at that
very scary moment, in that very scary place, falling off of a, a building or
something, are, are, are remote. The chances that you could achieve Nirvana in
this very life, in the next year or two are good. If you have the correct teachings,
especially on emptiness, and if you perceive emptiness directly, and you practice
well, and honestly, and purely, keep your vows, you, you can. And so do it
now. I mean don’t wait – there’s all these teachings out nowadays about, you
know, it’s almost like uh, a shortcut, you know like ‘just wait ‘til you die and then
(snaps his fingers) you know, do this and that and, and you’ll be able to, you’ll be
enlightened there’. You know, why wait? Why wait until then? The, there’s,
there’s nothing different about that time and this time accept in that time you’re
going to be so scared and so confused your body is going to be terribly in, in a
… there’s this special kind of pain. In Tibetan there’s no other word. It’s a single
word to describe the kind of pain that’s going on at that moment. {Nye chu pay
duk ngel}. And, and it’s an extraordinary special kind of pain that you know, like
an animal feels in the last moment that it crushed by something. And, and all
beings have it at that point. So you, you don’t want to wait until those
conditions. You, you can achieve it, you have all the things you need right here
and now. You can do it in this life. You can do it quite comfortably sitting on
your bed, you know, in this next year or two if you want. If you really work
hard and do everything properly with the right motivation, you could do it, so
don’t, don’t wait, you know [laughs]. Ya?

[Student]: Do animals themselves also go through the {bardo} state?

Geshe-la: Ya. Uh, if they’re not going to the formless realm, okay. That’s
another proof. One more proof, ah, he says, then he talks about the {Tsang
me??} If you know {tsang me}, {tsang me} means this is something that Janet ??
asked about. {tsang me} means that there are five kinds of bad deeds that you
can do which are called immediate. They are the ultimate bad deeds. What are,
do you remember some of them?

[Class]: A whole bunch of answers…

Geshe-la: Killing your father. Killing your mother. Killing an arhat. Trying to
hurt a Buddha and then splitting the Sangha.        Splitting, splitting spiritual
practitioners. Okay. Those five. Um, and actually the fifth one has to be the
direct followers of the Buddha, so you know…

[Student]: [Inaudible about splitting up the Sangha.]

Geshe-la: Ah, it means the direct, ah it means the direct, it only happened once in
history. And it will only happen once in history. And only one person ever does
it. And that, it’s, so don’t worry, you can’t collect number five technically
speaking. You can do very many things which are very close but it’s not a real,
it’s not number five. It is not THE number five. THE number five can only be
done by a direct disciple of the Buddha. While the Buddha is present. The
historical Buddha. So you can’t, you really can’t do number five right now. You
can do lots of things that are very very close and you’ll get very similar results,
but not THE number five, okay? Ah, so {tsang me}, {tsang me}, the words for
those bad deeds is called ah, “uninterrupted”. And, and, and what that means is
that you don’t take any other kind of birth between dying and being born in the
lowest hell. Right after that, you know. So people say ‘Where’s the {bardo}’ for,
for someone who commits one of those five? The name of those five is
“uninterrupted” meaning you don’t have another rebirth between dying in this
life and taking birth in the lowest hell. So people say, and the scripture says, and
Jen and Dianne just asked ‘Where’s the {bardo} for that being?’ Ah, the point is,
and Vasubandu talks about it, and the Dalai Lama talks about it, the point is the
word ‘rebirth’. And, and as you knew, as you now know from, from I think it
was in the, the first or second homework, there are only five kinds of rebirths,
and where are {bardo} beings? They are not even in there. They are not even
counted in there. So when they say {tsa me} meaning no other rebirth they’re
talking about the five types. So even that being has a {bardo}. Even, even a
being who goes, who’s committed one of those horrible five deeds and dies in
this life, has to take a {bardo} to get to hell. And will. And does. It’s not a
separate rebirth. It’s still un… uninterrupted. It’s still uninterrupted, meaning
there’s no other kind of rebirth between dying in this life when you’ve
committed it and going to the lowest hell. It’s ah, not like you spend some time
as an animal for a while and then go to the lowest hell. So, so that addresses
that, that question. Um,

[Student]: Is it briefer than the normal {bardo}?

Geshe-la: Excuse me?

[Student]: Is it more brief?
Geshe-la: Ah, I don’t remember it being mentioned but I think it is. I think it
would be. Ah, but I ,I don’t remember it being specifically mentioned. Why
doesn’t the, Vasubandu say “I saw it”? Vasubandu was an arya.

[Student]: He’s not allowed?

Geshe-la: Why doesn’t he say, “Look, the best proof to tell you the truth, is I
saw it”. And, and why doesn’t, why don’t they give forty ah, testaments from
people who almost died and saw the light, and

[Stilwell]: It’s been done already…

[Laughter]

Geshe-la: Or went there and jumped back, or you know, why, why don’t they,
why doesn’t Vasubandu use that? Why doesn’t, he’s an arya. Why doesn’t he
say ‘look, I mean, to tell you the truth, I, I saw it’. It’s not a proof. I mean, we
say that personal experience that you had, uh, is not a good reason to give to
someone else.        Personal experiences of this nature, like an extraordinary
spiritual breakthrough, where you perceived emptiness directly, and shortly
afterwards you saw your future lives. I mean, if I had done it myself. If I had
gone through the experience of ah, seeing emptiness directly, and ah, seen that I,
for example, I had seven future lives to live, and saw the details of those lives,
um, suppose I had done it personally, and then, then, then I got up here and
described what it was like to you, it’s not, it’s not a proof. I mean, I can’t, I, you
can’t confirm that what I say is, is, is correct. So we don’t rely on that kind of a
presentation. You know, we don’t, a person doesn’t get up and give a testimony
you know. Because ah, you can’t confirm it. You know, you can confirm or
disconfirm the things that I have said here. By the way, you can’t disconfirm
anything I have said. You can’t disprove anything I’ve said. But, but if I got up
here and tried to convince you on the basis of something I saw, and you believe
me, then you’ll believe the next guy who comes up here and says ‘Also it’s
purple, and there’s all these flying things around and there’s aura you know, and
all these things and ah, it’s, it’s not a good way. In Buddhism you’re not allowed
to really do that. You are supposed to communicate by things that people can
confirm in there personal experience. Okay. Ya?

[Student]: But the Buddha always says that. Can a Buddha, or an Enlightened
Being, or some…
Geshe-la: Ya. Ah. Under, under extraordinary circumstances. I mean, the
Buddha, had disciples that he had an extraordinary relationship with and who
already recognized that what he said, they could confirm so much of what he
said that he would reveal those things to them. But in general, an arya, a person
who has seen emptiness directly they never will directly say “I have seen that
thing” to you. They never will. They just won’t say it. Or, or, or any other
similar experience. They, because it doesn’t help. Unless you have some
extraordinary relationship with them. Ah, but in general it, it doesn’t help. You
know, you, you, it has to be a process by which they teach you how to see it
yourself. But they don’t just go around saying “I saw it”. It’s, it’s just the nature
of that experience. If it ever happens to you, you’ll know because you won’t tell
anybody [laughs]. Directly. Okay? Alright, let’s take a break.

…I’m not going to write the Tibetan up here and we’ll go over it kind of quickly.
I’ll give you some more details that Vasubandu states about the nature of
{bardo} beings. Um, what do {bardo} beings look like? Ah, the physical
appearance of them, their, their body is made of a kind of ah, very subtle
physical matter. And outwardly the appearance is that of the being that you are
going to be next. So for example if you are going to be born as a hell being,
reborn as a hell being, then during the {bardo} you look like a hell being. Uh,
and if you are going to be reborn as a human then during the {bardo} you look
like a human. And the reason is that the karma which’s projecting the rebirth,
say for example as a human, is the same that is projecting the {bardo}. So it is
considered one class of karma is projecting you into the {bardo} and then into
your next rebirth, and it’s the same karma. So you resemble what you’re going
to become. So if you wanted to know how someone is going to be reborn, and
you had the proper facilities then you could check out their {bardo} appearance
and you would know. Um, the scriptures give the color of the, of the {bardo}
being. Um, someone who is headed for a hell realm is supposed look like a
scorched piece of wood. Like some, like a burnt piece of wood. The color is the
color of a burnt piece of wood. For animals it’s this ah, it’s sort of a grayish color
like smoke. Smoke color. Um, for craving spirits it um, sort of a, a color like
water, meaning ah, sort of, I don’t know how you describe it…

[Student]: Kinda translucent?

Geshe-la: Kinda translucent, ya. Ah, pleasure being of the desire realm or a
human; golden color. And that being looks like a, a five or six year old. I mean
the appearance is of a very young human being. Ah, someone to be born as a
pleasure being in the form realm; white. And adult. Looking, looking like an
adult human.

[Student]: In which realm?

Geshe-la: Who’s going to be born in the form realm.

[Student]: Form realm.

Geshe-la: And clothed also. They have clothes on. Because you can’t be born in
that realm unless you have a high sense of ah, that, the karma of having had a
high degree of ah, shame, or, or what do you call it? Conscience. Is that
modesty, is that you, you have the karma to perceive yourself having clothes
on. As you go through the {bardo}. So sort of a, a beautiful form. And for the,
if you’re going into the formless realm you look like …

[Class]: You don’t.

Geshe-la: You don’t have one. [Laughter]. Trick question. Okay. How long do
they live? There’s a debate in the Abhidharma. Ah, Vasumitra who wrote the
most famous commentary to Vasubandu’s work, his viewpoint is pretty much
accepted nowadays and by all the Lamas that I’ve met who taught me. And it’s
that a {bardo} being lives for seven days. The maximum lifespan of a {bardo}
being is seven days. The shortest one is probably for like for a few seconds.
Um, and you die and you are reborn again as a {bardo} being.

[Stilwell]: Say that again?

Geshe-la: Okay, if you, if you reach the end of your {bardo} seven days and you
haven’t taken a rebirth yet, you are reborn as another {bardo} being. Okay.
You are reborn into a {bardo} being, again.

[Student]: Inaudible:

Geshe-la: There’s a debate about it and we’ll get to it. Ah, but basically that can
go, that can repeat itself how many times?

[Fran]: Seven times. Seven.



Geshe-la: Seven times. So seven times seven is…
[Class]: Forty-nine.

Geshe-la. Forty-nine days. So you must according to Buddhism, ah, take a
rebirth within forty-nine days. You will take a rebirth within forty-nine days.
And that’s why, by the way, if you take a rebirth in forty-nine days it means
you’ve been through seven {bardo} existences, okay? Ah, that’s why the, the,
the rituals that we do to help a person in the {bardo}, you do one at seven days
and then we do another one at forty-nine days. And the day of, the, the
counting starts on the day of the death, so you don’t count, you don’t start
counting from the next day, you start from the day of the death. That becomes
day one. So if you have to calculate it for a relative or someone .. According to
the secret teachings it is possible to aid them in some ways ah, through certain
kinds of rituals. So, so it’s not crazy and it, you don’t have to think it’s, it’s being
ah, superstitious to ask a Lama to try to do something. Ah, its possible, so you
know, you can ask Rinpoche to do things like that and, and, and we sometimes
in extraordinary cases, we can contact the monks in the, in Sera monastery, then
you, it’s, it is possible according to the secret teachings to help the person in the
{bardo} with special kinds of rituals, so you know, if you know someone who
dies and you, and you want to, it’s, it’s not, it’s not stupid to, to ask, you know.
Give me their name, and the date that they died, and then uh, uh, it’s good to
know the birth date if you know it, and year, and then ah, we’ll ask Rinpoche.
Ya?

[Student]: Inaudible.

Geshe-la: Ya, it doesn’t matter.

[Student]: Inaudible.

Geshe-la: Ya, it doesn’t matter. Um, can you, who can see another {bardo}
being? Like could we ever get to the point where we could see {bardo} beings?
And the scripture says, Vasubandu says, the Buddha says, ‘yes it’s possible’. Ah,
you have to get what is called a {hlay chen}. Ah,

(writes on board).

Say, {hlay chen}.

[Class]: Repeats.
Geshe-la: Ah, {hlay}, {hlay} you know. It means ‘pleasure being’. Ah, in this
case it means like a God or some kind of powerful being. And {chen} means ah,
‘eye’, an eye. And there’s all these kinds of {chens}, you know sometimes you
see them, you know, painted on, we don’t believe that ah you know, it pops up
here and opens up and you need to change your glasses and add another
[laughs] you know. We, we, it’s not like that. What it, there are a number of
kinds of special visions; eyes that you can develop that are not physical eyes.
And this is one of them. And this, despite its strange name, you know, ‘the eye
of the God’ or something like that, it refers to a, a, a deep state of meditation.
Where you can see things that you wouldn’t normally be able to see. Um, there
are eleven different conditions that prevent you from getting this eye. And you
can study them in the reading, but basically they are the classical obstacles to
concentration or meditation. And, and if you could study those eleven, and if
you could remove them in yourself, for example, being distracted by thinking
about too many things is one of them, [Laughter] that eliminates me, ah, you
could, you could reach this ability. I mean you have to study them and you have
to learn them and then you have to eliminate them. If you eliminate those
eleven obstacles then you gain a power to see those beings. You can see those
beings. Um, the scriptures say also, the sutras say that ah, {bardo} beings of the
same type can see each other. So like if you’re going to be born, reborn as a
human and you’re in a human {bardo} they say that you, because of the
similarity of your class that you can see the other human {bardos}. Ya?

[Student]: Are um, tru-kus in a different category?

Geshe-la: Ya, it’s a good question. I mean, we kinda talked about it when we
talked about who can choose a rebirth. Ah, what she asked are tru-kus, ah do
they have to go through this {bardo} stuff? No. The real meaning of tulku is
where there’s a totally Enlightened presence, and that presence takes form in
any place and time and planet and moment and on any bus or subway or next to
you at work or anywhere where it would be extraordinarily useful for you, that
it will just be there (snaps his fingers). That’s the nature of the Buddha’s virtue,
and that’s a tru-ku. That’s what a tulku means. So, it could be anybody in this
room. It could be all of you. I know it’s not me okay [laughs]. But, it’s quite
possible that everyone in this room is a tulku, I don’t know. Ah, but a tulku
means it’s a being who is an emanation of an Enlightened presence. And then
they just are there when you need them. When it’s useful they’re there. And
when it’s not useful they get up and get off the bus. And then they, who knows
what happens when the bus goes, you know. But they’re there. They, they can
be there. So ah, classically the Dalai Lama for example is a tru-ku. If he’s a real
tru-ku then it’s just totally like an emanation of an Enlightened being. And it’s
just ah, like a, a movie, you know. You had a question…

[Student]: Is there any explanation of near death experiences, like people claim
that they see light and relatives who died recently. Those aren’t {bardo} beings
per se because they may have, they may have died like fifty years before that?

Geshe-la: Ah, there are some descriptions in the secret teachings. And since
they’re secret um, [laughter] can you, the question of can you be diverted to
another birth… for example if you enter a, a, a human {bardo}, could you then
be diverted to another rebirth. And the answer is no. Because again it’s the
same karma. It’s one, the mo…, it’s one projecting karma which is,
there’s many kinds of karma, but one is called projecting karma. The karma that
is sending you to your rebirth is the same karma that’s sending you into the
{bardo}. So there’s no, there’s nothing like you could take the {bardo} of a hell
being and then become a human or something like that. Be reborn as human.
But, there is {bardo dowa} Which means you could enter Nirvana in the state of
the {bardo} and not have to take any rebirth. Um, that, that according to
Abhidharma takes place with people heading to a certain part of the form realm.
Ya…

[Stilwell]: So is the idea that each, um, each what, realm, has its own {bardo}, is
that the point, I’m sort of curious?

Geshe-la: Ah, it is not, that {bardo} doesn’t belong to that realm but we call you
a {bardo} for a human if you’re headed to be a human.

[Stilwell]: So are they all kind of mixed together in the same {bardo}, all the
different beings, or how is this?

Geshe-la: They can’t see each other:

[Stilwell]: But they’re in this, I mean not…

Geshe-la: Are they in the same place? Ya, they’re around here, they’re, they’re
with us, you know. Um, they’re all in the same place.

[Stilwell]: I just don’t see…
Geshe-la: How do we name them? We name them from what they’re going to
be. Okay. And if, if you’re a translator you go crazy sometimes because, you
know, I mean you finally figure out that it’s a {bardo} to be a human. So it’s
called a human {bardo}. You get, you start to get confused if you’re translating.
Quick question because we’re getting a little late.

[Student]: Um, {bardos} suffer? They’re in their own suffering right?

Geshe-la: Ya. They suffer. Um, anyone who’s still in samsara is suffering right?
We saw that. Uh, by definition. They have certain, um, miraculous powers,
okay. {Bardo} beings can, and this is straight from scripture; ah, they can fly.
Um, they can travel extraordinary distances quickly. You know, like a {bardo}
could get from here to Kansas without much trouble. Um, they can travel
through solid, ah, walls, and mountains and things like that. They have the
ability to, to pass through, and we have huge debates in the monastery. Like I
remember a winter debate, a competition between us and, and Sera Jey, which
are almost as good as us. And we were debating, and ah, and we were debating
that the nature of, I mean how could a … if two physical bodies can’t exist in the
same location at the same time how could a {bardo} being go through a wall?
And, and there’s a long argument about it. Ah, and there’s a long explanation.
But they can. And they say that there’s only two kinds of physical matter that a
{bardo} being can’t pass through. One is the spot where the Buddha became
Enlightened under the Bodhi tree in Vajra Asana, Seat of the Diamond, which we
call Bodghaya nowadays. And ah, and they cannot pass through the, the tissue
of their mother’s womb. Once they get caught in there they cannot travel
through that tissue anymore, and they, they have to stay there. Ya?

[Student]: Does this refer to the whole place in Bodghaya precisely to the small
spot?

Geshe-la: I don’t know exactly. They just say that. I believe it, I mean in my
mind, but I don’t have, it’s not, I don’t have any scriptural basis for that. But
Vajra Asana means like the ‘Diamond Seat’ meaning that I’d imagine the place
where the Buddha actually sat. But I, I don’t know. Twenty feet from there I
don’t know. I’m not sure. Okay, I’m not, I, I , I haven’t, I don’t, I haven’t seen
any reference either way. Um, do they eat food? Yes, they live on, on very
subtle forms of food like smells. And we’ll get into that next class. Smells
themselves can be a form of food. Ah, how do they travel? Some scriptures say
that if you’re headed for hell you’re traveling upside down. You’re walking
upside down through the space. Ah, if you’re headed for a pleasure beings’
existence you’re, you’re walking slightly upwards and, and things like that. Um,
I think the last point, the last point I’ll talk about is you know, what is the, the
scriptures go through this very, it’s kind of a pathetic or sad moment where they
explain how a being is caught in the womb. And is sort of a, you know the
Abidharma is very dry. I haven’t given you the dry parts, but there’s drier parts
[laughs]. But this ah, is like some kind of pathos. You know you feel some sort
of, of a sadness at reading it. And you can read it in the scripture but ah,
basically, they be, due to their karma, they, they reach the vicinity of their
parents, and their parents are making love. And, and they see it ah, from a
distance. And they, and they, they get attracted to it. They think, ah, they have
some, some emotion that these two beings are, are really enjoying themselves
and that if they came closer and they could join in with that kind of ah, pleasure.
You know and they, they, they get, it’s called {chin chi lopa}?? {Chin chi lopa}
means ah, they get some kind of ah… hallucination. Ah, where they don’t see
what’s going on as it really is, ah, which is something painful. Ah, they see it as
something very wonderful and very glorious, and they, and they get closer and
closer and then they are attracted to that and then they get cap… they get caught
in the mother’s womb. They can’t get out. And um, and that’s the, the nature.
Some kind of misperception that what’s going on there is something very joyful,
and they get, they, they, they enter into that and they get caught. And they,
then they can’t escape the womb from there. So that’s the, you can read that at
the end of, but it’s basically a, a misperception of what’s going on at that
moment.

[Student]: Why can they get in there and not out?

Geshe-la: Karma. Just karma. At that moment, according to if you’re going to
go to Prasangika school, they, their, their projection is of a, of a, of a piece of
tissue that they can no longer pass through. And they, and that’s called getting
stuck. And, and validly so. Because they can’t get out. And, and then, then they
have to start taking, they have to live in the womb from that point. That’s,
that’s… ya?

[Student]: They’re not choosing the parents…

Geshe-la: We talked about… were you in that class? I don’t know. There are,
there are three kinds of beings who can, who are sort of choosing. And we
talked about that, but basically speaking no, you don’t choose your parents.
You, you have some attraction towards them, and there’s a reason for that. You
had a deep karmic relation in the past. You know, why are you, why do you
happen to be in the room where these particular parents are, are, are there. Ah,
it’s because of your karma. Your karma drives you to that spot. In Tibetan it’s
called {depa}. {Depa} means it beats you from the, behind. It drives you to that
place and then you are particularly attracted to these two people. And, and
because of some past relationship you had with them. And, and then you, you
fi… you get caught in the womb.

[Student]: Are, are you going to talk about {bardo} beings in the next class?

Geshe-la: In what case?

[Student]: In the next class.

Geshe-la: Nope.

[Student]: Can you, can you just describe generally the whole process then of
what it’s like for the {bardo} being, the whole series of what happens?

Geshe-la: There’s a lot of a, there’s certain events that happen as you die. And
they’re related to the, it’s called the ‘domino collapse of the elements’. You
know, one element starts to collapse it, it triggers the collapse of another
element, it triggers the collapse of another element, and that collapse of certain
physical constituents of your body ah, cause certain ah, mental perceptions. You,
you go through a, a certain series of typical mental perceptions that are
terrifying, and that are like hallucinations. Um, and ah I can’t say more than that.
I mean to say more than that you have to study, you have to be…

[Stilwell]: I was thinking just what the process the {bardo} being goes through.
So you die, you become a {bardo} being, and then what happens? You just float
around? I mean what’s going on?

Geshe-la: Oh, you, you travel to your, you travel to your destination. In fact at
the beginning, the opening lines of the {bardo} section say ‘a {bardo} is a person
who hasn’t reached his destination yet’, you know. So you’re, basically the
whole time you are working your way to the location of your next birth. Ah…

[Stilwell]: Kind of just floating around?

Geshe-la: You, you have the power to, to go very quickly. Almost at the speed
of thought. Ah, and you pass to the, you pass to the location, and that, you do
get this feeling of searching and wandering and looking and there is some
words, {sol che} ??? they’re called seekers, wanderers, you know they’re looking
for the next birth and I don’t think they’re aware that they’re looking but they,
they are driven by their karma through this realm and sooner or later they reach
a destination where they, they meet the conditions to be born.

Fran: Inaudible.

Geshe-la: Ah, Fran asked ah, on the thirtieth, oh by the way I remind you that
Thursday night Rinpoche is teaching in New Jersey and you can catch it, its good
and I won’t count it as an absence. Ah, he’s also teaching on Sundays at two
o’clock. And on the thirtieth he’s giving layman’s vows. And your welcome to
come, it’s at two o’clock. Ah, because of that uh, ceremony, ah, we won’t have
the general meeting that we had planned. We’ll have to reschedule. We’ll
reschedule it for a week or two later. Fran asked ‘will we still have the combined
class’? I’d still like to have the combined class next week. We were scheduling a
combined class of Tibetan and English tracks on Saturday the thirtieth at ten
o’clock. And we still will have a combined class. It just happens to work out that
because of all the scheduling that we had to do.

[Students]: Inaudible.

Geshe-la: It’s in your um, it’s in your days to come sheet.      In other words,
there’ll be one of your classes will be on a Saturday morning.

Prayer: Mandala.

Prayer: Dedication.

Geshe-la: We need two volunteers. And not the same ones as last time [laughs].
Okay. Ah, what was the other thing? Please be careful not to ring the other bells
downstairs because the poor lady in those apartments is going crazy.

[Stilwell]: Is anybody making a sign so everybody knows which…

Geshe-la: There’s a little blue tape…

[Stilwell]: You can’t even read it.

Geshe-la: Who would like to make a real sign?
[Student]: I can make a sign. Where should it say?

[Stilwell]: Just to fit by the bell. Ya but it should like a little brass plaque or
something that the rain isn’t going to fade away or something right.

Geshe-la: Actually I like that little one you did for Sarah?

[Stilwell]: Bronze? How about brass? No, but if you only put a little paint of
paper it’s only going to last a short time, you know?

Geshe-la: What about on the inside of the door?

[Stilwell]: No it’s outside.

[Student]: It’s outside.

Geshe-la: Oh, oh, oh.

[Stilwell]: You need some like plastic… metal… something.

Geshe-la: Okay, well you and Wilma…

[Stilwell]: Oh no no no no. Not me. Not me. Did you want to work on it?

[Student]: Hmm?

[Stilwell]: Did you want to make one?

[Student]: Well I could maybe…

[Stilwell]: Do you want to work with Wilma?

[Student]: No, I got it, it’s fine.

[Stilwell]: Okay.
Geshe Michael Roach
Course VIII Death and the Realms of Existence