ACI 8 «Смерть и сферы существования», занятие 4

Class Four: The Lives of Humans and Pleasure Beings
transcribed by: Adrienne Block Proofread by: Summer Moore
3/18/96                     8/30/02




We finished craving spirits and animals [repeat]. Animals. So, working our way
up what would come next? [students: Humans]

Humans and ... devas

[students: Devas]

Okay, so we’re going to cover the sufferings... we’re going to cover the world of
humans and...

[silence]

I could go through the geography, you know, I could go through the four
continents and Mount Meru and then the inner oceans and the outer oceans and
the different... and the different mountains and, and all that stuff. I could go over
that.

[student: [unclear]]

That’s the... we don’t have time.      That’s the physical world of human beings.
But really, I’m going to follow...

[student: Could you give us the schematic thing? Like really...]
It’s a very complicated but I’ll give you the whole text if you want. [laughter] It’s
really complicated. It’s the whole third chapter of the [b: Abidharma.] We can
do it... actually I think that we do do it a little bit later. We’re going to follow the
presentation given by...

[student: Pabonka Rin...]

Excuse me?
[student: Pabonka Rinpoche?]

Yeah, we’re going to do them together.

[student: Okay]

[silence]

Say {Panchen} [repeat],  {Lobsang} [repeat], {Chukyi} [repeat], {Gyeltsen}
[repeat]. Okay. Panchen stands for Pandita Chenbo, Maha Pandita. Which
means what? The Mongolians call it pandito.

[student: Teacher?]

Yeah [laughs]

[same student: Wise teacher?]
Pandita means, yeah, like, Master. Buddhist Master. So, Pan... Panchen means
great Buddhist Master. The great master. And his name was... Lobsang Chukyi
Gyeltsen.    Surely his first name, Lobsang is... was given to him because
Tsongkapa’s ordination name which was?
[student: Lobsang Drakpa]
Lobsang Drakpa. Okay, so...

Lobsang Chukyi Gyeltsen. Lobsang means “pure mind.” Chukyi Gyeltsen
means “banner of the Dharma”... like a big flag in front of a parade. Lobsang
Chukyi Gyeltsen was the first Panchen Lama. Okay, the first of the Panchen
Lama’s. And his dates are:
[student: How do you spell Panchen?]

Uh...
[student: [unclear]]

Yeah. We don’t know exactly when he was born, we believe it was this date:
[silence]
And, this was the date that he passed. What is the present Panchen Lama? {Dzu}
[laughs] [laughter]

[student: what is a Panchen Lama?]
[students: [unclear]]

I don’t know what he is ten, or...
[student: eleven]

Eleven. And there’s... you know China, has recognized one. And the Dalai
Lama has recognized another one.        China the atheists.     [laughter] The
communists. [laughter] Nonbelievers in future rebirths [laughs] [laughter] have
appointed the rebirth of the Panchen Lama. And the choice of His Holiness has
disappeared. We assume he has been arrested... or something.
[student: What’s so special about him?

excuse me?
[student: What’s so special about him besides being a teacher?]

Oh, what makes the Panchen Lama a Panchen Lama? Basically, these lineages
tend to start when there is some extraordinary Lama. Like Khen Rinpoche by
virtue of being the Abbot of Sera Mey is now eligible for a lineage. You know.
He, he can... he’ll be... now he’ll be reborn... I mean people will look for his
rebirth... if he passes away, I guess... so... It’s, it’s when there’s some kind of
extraordinary Lama. And then, and in modern days you achieve that by... I
mean the Dalai Lama makes a certain decision and then you... so Rinpoche’s
already been granted that. So…
But the Panchen, he was just some very, very extraordinary Lama.
I would like to teach you... I hope we can study together... he wrote and
Rinpoche taught us an extraordinary text in verse. He was a great poet. And it’s
an argument between ignorance and, and understanding of emptiness in one
person’s mind.      And so you... it’s like the Angel and the devil up here, you
know, and they’re, they’re arguing with each other. And, and the, the devil
starts out with, with very, very clever arguments about emptiness that are
slightly wrong, and then the Angel, or, you know, the good side says “No, no,
that’s not quite right.” And he corrects him and then he... then he corrects him
then gets a more subtle wrong argument and then the wisdom corrects him
again but what... in the course of that text, which I think is about sixty folios, he
covers all the mistakes that you and I will ever make about emptiness. All the
subtle mistakes, all the stupid mistakes, he covers all of them. Very, very
beautiful. Extraordinary. It’s never been translated. Somebody’s been working
on it for about five years. I don’think he’s done with it. I hope... we could study
it if we have time.
[student: That’d be great]
Would be wonderful. It’ll be a classic. When it’s translated, it’ll be a classic. It’ll
be like [b: The Bodhisattva’s] , you know [b: The Guide to the Bodhisattvas’ Way
of Life] It’ll become a classic. It’s a great great book.
[student: What’s the name of the book?]

Excuse me?
[student: What’s the name of the book?]

[b: Dang Dzen Chang Teb] which means “the debate between wisdom and
ignorance... in one person’s mind.” It’s very beautiful. Wisdom goes... I mean
ignorance goes into a long thing about saying how good selfishness is and how if
you weren’t selfish you could never look out for yourself and how defenseless
you’d be without that. And then wisdom defeats him about that. And then, and
then ignorance says “well selfishness is the same as grasping to a self” and then,
and then wisdom defeats him on that too. So it’s very subtle. It gets more and
more subtle. We have to read it sometime. So, anyway, he wrote fantastic texts
and then later he was recognized as the first Panchen Lama. The text we’re
going to study tonight.
[silence]

Say {De-lam} [repeat] {De-lam}. There’s a whole string of great Lam Rim texts
starting with Atisha’s Lam Rim going up to Je Tsongkapa’s [b: Lam Rim
Chenmo [“unclear”] the three Lam Rims.

And then you have a very famous one by the First Panchen Lama and it’s called
[b: De-Lam].
{De} generally means happiness but in this case it means {delak} which means
“easy”, okay. And {Lam}, I think you know
[students: Path]
Path. So it’s the easy path. It means that he’s presenting a very easy way to get
to enlightenment. Very brief, very, very beautiful, in verse, and extraordinary.
It’s recently been published. I believe the name has been mistranslated [laughs]
and it’s called [b: Path to Bliss] or something like that. It’s a mistranslation of
this, of this. I mean... maybe... I don’t know. Anyway. Probably is. We have
to check it out. That’s what Tsongkapa used to say. [laughs] [b: De-Lam]. So
[b: De-Lam] is, is that book. And it’s a Lam Rim text. It’s a beautiful Lam Rim.
That text is a little bit hard and we’re going to use a commentary. There’s a very
beautiful commentary by...
[silence]
We love these commentaries.
[student: laughter [unclear]]

It’s called “the onion theory” you know.
[silence]
If you get into Tibetan Buddhism deeply... I mean the first wave of writing or the
first wave of literature that we have available is the sutras - from 500 bc - and
then we have all the early Indian commentaries that range from like Nargarjuna
in the third century up to Atisha in the tenth and eleventh century. And then you
have a big wave of commentaries in the fourteen, thirteen, fourteen hundreds.
And then you have a big wave of commentaries in the sixteen hundreds,
seventeen hundreds. And you actually can’t study the early ones without the
later ones. Like people like you and me, if you try to pick up a sutra or an early
Indian commentary, forget it, you could never understand it. You, you have to
go backwards. You can’t really appreciate even the Panchen Lama in 1567 unless
you can read this commentary. That’s just because they knew a lot... when they
said things briefly everyone knew that they were talking about and that’s not
the case anymore. Please repeat {Ngulchu} [repeat] {Dharma} [repeat] {Bhadra}
[repeat] { Ngulchu} [repeat] {Dharma} [repeat] {Bhadra} [repeat].            Very
important Lama in our Vajrayogini lineage. He’s in the supplication. [unclear -
and in Tibetan]

[student: So this is the name?]

[unclear recitation of text continues] {...yeshe tsog.} It’s in the middle of the
{dakkye} Yeah, this is a lamas name. Ngulchu means “Quick Silver”. I believe
that’s a place in Tibet, I’m not sure. And Dharma Bhadra was his personal name.
He had a Sanskrit personal name. Okay. His dates are...He wrote some great
commentaries on Vajra Yogini. One is available and the other is sort of secret.
And both of them have been input and we have them and they are very useful.
He also... we have records of interviews with him and his students and his
students asked him questions about Vajrayogini and he gave answers, beautiful
answers. And those were carved into wood and we have those also. So there’s,
it’s extraordinary he’s an extraordinary Lama in our lineage. Very deeply
related to Pabonka Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche, and Khen Rinpoche. Direct
lineage. Okay. So we’re going to read a book by him.
[student: Michael, all the writing’s in Tibetan, right?]

[student: He was Tibetan.]
Excuse me?
[student: He was Tibetan.]

Yeah, his name was Sankrit but he was a Tibetan. He used a Sanskrit name.
[student: In the books you have it all in Tibetan, right?]

A yeah, nothing translated yet. You guy’s ‘ll have... actually, the monks are
translating one right now. Which is your next course. [laughter] They are, they
really are.
[student: Yeah, I believe you.]

I mean the next class. I mean in summer, late summer.
Say {Rinchen} [repeat] {Bangdzu} [repeat] {Rinchen} [repeat] {Bangdzu} [repeat].
Rinchen means what? You guys know, I think.
[student: Jewels]

Jewels, any precious thing. Like gold is also a rinchen. Silver is also a rinchen.
But normally, gemstones. Bangdsu means a big chest or a big box of like of, like
if you can imagine like a big heavy chest full of diamonds or something. That’s
the name of his commentary. It’s a, it’s an extraordinary commentary, never
been translated. You guys are going to study it tonight and he... it’s really really
beautiful.
[student: How was it translated?]

“Chest of Jewels.” But I think it’s just like an honor to be able to read something
by him and that’s your readings. It’s taken from him. Because he’s so important
in our lineage. It’s like, it’s like a great grandfather for us. Okay.
Panchen Lama says, First Panchen Lama says if you want to study about humans
and pleasure beings, if you want to study their world, if you want to understand
their life then you have to understand {duk-ngel druk.}Say {duk-ngel} [repeat]
{druk} [repeat] {duk-ngel} [repeat] {druk}. I promise you you’ll never learn
Tibetan, okay. [laughter] {duk-ngel} means suffering, {Druk} means six kinds.
So if you want to understand what a human is all about, you have to understand
the six kinds of suffering. You’ll read in the, in Ngulchu’s commentary, he’ll say
the way the Panchen Lama presented these is important because it’s important
to understand when I say the suffering of humans, you know, like if you’re
trying to explain to somebody why you’re studying Buddhism, and they say
“why” and you start out, you’re going to start out and say “Well, because all life
is suffering”. And they’ll say, “Oh I don’t know what you’re talking about, I had
a good coffee tonight at Starbucks.” And you’ll say, “No, no, no it’s all suffering,
really, it’s all suffering.” [laughter] And they’ll say, “Like what?” And you’ll
say, “{kayga la chee}.” You know, “Birth, dying, old age, sickness.” And they’ll
say, “Yeah, well I get sick occasionally but that... I’m not sick all the time. And
I’m not old yet, you know I still have some juice in me. And I’m obviously not
dead yet. And being born I can’t remember anyway, so, you know I’m not too
worried about that. So I don’t see the big deal. You know, I mean it’s true that
things are sort of screwy, life has it’s bad times, but in general, you know, I have
good days and I have bad days. But you... I don’t see the big deal that you’re
obsessed with suffering thing, you know.” And, and that’s really true, I mean
you... and the Panchen Lama says, “You have to look at the suffering of human
beings.” You know, “Is it like someone’s beating you with a club all the time?”
Or there was this old torture that was popular in China of this hot wax or hot
lead and tying the guy down and dripping hot lead on him, you know, and
letting it burn through his skin or something. They said, “Life is not like that,”
you know “it’s not like, especially in the deva’s realms, especially in the pleasure
beings’ realms. It’s not like they’re suffering all the time like that.” It’s... so
why, why are Buddhists so obsessed with suffering? So... and, and when you
think of helping other people, you know, you, sometimes you’re kind of
confused, you know? “Am I supposed to feed people, or am I supposed to get
people a place to stay?” Or, “Who’s suffering? You know if I have to go out
and do social service, for my fellow man, you know, do I have to go to Africa
like Albert Schweitzer and open a med... a, you know a facility and help people
who have broken arms and skin diseases and things? Is that, is that suffering?
What is suffering? What’s the suffering that we’re supposed to be so obsessed
with? Why are Buddhists so, you know... and how can I help other people.”
And then the Panchen Lama says, “The real suffering is something that all realms
have. All humans have it all the time. And all the pleasure beings have it all the
time. And it’s six sufferings that are always with us, and, and we have to know
about them. That’s the real suffering that people have. If you really want to do
something for other people, treat those six sufferings,” okay. The first one...
[silence]

Say {ngepa} [repeat] {mepa} [repeat] {ngepa mepa} [repeat] {ngepa mepa}
[repeat]. [silence]

The first one is, is a really nasty one, we have it all the time. What it means is
that things are always shifting, especially with regard to friends and enemies, for
example. You know, like nothing’s fixed, you know you say... you can’t say that
someone's going to be your friend tomorrow who was your friend today. It’s
impossible. And one of the sufferings that we have is that people that we feel
very close to this week, next week we might have a big fight and then suddenly
we’re their best enemy, you know, I mean there’s nothing fixed in relationships.
You can have someone and you feel strongly that this is the person you most
love in the world and then, you know, a year later you have this bitter divorce
proceeding. And, it’s very very common. It’s very very common in the world.
It’s not fixed. You can’t say that, “This person is... is someone I love” or “This
person is someone I hate.” It’s always shifting, it’s always moving around like
water. And, and nothing is fixed. You can’t say “I like this job,” or “I hate this
job.” It’s constantly moving, constantly shifting around. You can’t say “I like
this thing,” or “I don’t like this thing” because a week later or month later or a
year later you think the opposite. And it’s... in fact the people who insist the
most that something is good for everybody, they usually change every week or
so, you know? That’s just the nature of life. People... I, I was talking in Tibetan
class people ask me “When did you become a Buddhist?” You know, “What...”
“How did you become a Buddhist?” And I say, if I didn’t, if I don’t know them
very well I say, “I was in a class in college and they started talking about
Buddhism and I got convinced about it.” But it was really something else in
college, and it was girlfriends and highschool. And it was very serious. And I
noticed it in my parents who loved each other and then hated each other, you
know, and had bitter divorce. And then I noticed it in myself, you know, like I
would, I would, I would meet a lady and then after awhile I, I would be very
attracted and I would, I would get to know them very well and, and be very
close to them and then a month later you hate each other like it’s the wo... it’s...
something changes and it was... and it bothered me a lot, you know? I wasn’t
joking about it. It really really hurt my feeling and I didn’t understand why you
would like somebody so much and then two months later you can’t stand them,
you know? And that this would continue over and over again. And I... I don’t...
I couldn’t see why that happened. And I used, I used... it upset me and I used to
wonder, “Is there something wrong with me or is this common?” And then,
you know, you look out in the world and this is pretty common. And then you
say, “Maybe there’s something else going on. Maybe it’s the nature of those
objects,” you know. Maybe it’s the very nature of a desirable thing. That it
shifts, that it changes. And, and here I ask the people who were in the Diamond
Sutra class, you know, what shifts? I mean if, if your perception is... oh, I just
told you. [laughter] If, if someone seems very nice to you this year and then
next year you just can’t stand them and you divorce them and you’re trying to
get half their property and something like that what, what is it? Why does the
sun come up in the morning? It’s, it’s a perception. It’s your projections. The
person has not changed. The person is the same person, which makes sense, I
mean if you, if you’re, if they’re the most loved person by you in January, and
then by March you hate their guts they probably haven’t changed between
January and March in any significant way. They, it’s not something to do with
them, it’s something to do with, with your perceptions.
[Nina: But Michael, somebody could be, it’s true, somebody can be nice to you
one day the next day could be nasty.
No... [laughs]

[Nina: Well I know it’s perception [unclear] you know what I mean?
No, but we’re gonna ask why
[Nina: ...there can be actual tangible...]

We want to see why. I, I... first of all let’s address Nina’s questions. Is it real? I
mean when you perceive them as being wonderful and then three months later
you perceive them as being really ... stupid...
[student: Your perception changes though.]

But is it valid?
[Nina: Yes.]

[student: On a relative level]

Yes.
[same student: Yes]

Yes.
[Nina: Yes.]

Yes, yes they are. They are wonderful to you. And you buy them flowers and
everything. And then three months later they are really terrible to you and
you’re trying to get them out of the house, you know. [laughter] And... and it’s
true. It’s not a mis... it’s valid. It’s valid. They give all the information of being
nasty. They’re yelling at you. They have a red face. They’re not beautiful
anymore.        Something changed.          And that’s valid perception.       All the
characteristics are there of an ugly person. And you say, “Ugly person.” And
that’s, that’s a [tsema], that’s a pramana. They are an ugly person. And then
three months earlier they were pretty and attractive and friendly and intelligent
and caring and, and then something changed between then and then, you know,
something changed. So both of them are valid perceptions. They were correct
perceptions but what changed?
[student: Well their behavior patterns, the way you reacted to them.]
Why?
[John: Past Deeds.]

[Nina: Your karma.]

Your, your, your projections changed. Your perceptions changed. They can’t
change that quickly, I mean, honest, right. If they were self-existent. If they
were really nice at the beginning, they’re not going to change in three months.
You know.
[student: Have their perceptions changed?]

That’s another story. Somebody asked me in the last class.          Absolutely,
absolutely
[same student: They never change the way [unclear]]

But that’s another story. We’re talking about our perceptions, okay. Your
perceptions change. But why do they, why do they change like that? I mean...
one, one month, January, they seem very beautiful and caring and loving and
attractive to you, and then three months later they seem like this haggard ...
[unclear]

[Nina: Well they didn’t show you what the whole sides of them were, to you.]
[laughter]

You could say that but why? See?
[student: That’s also true...]

Why? That’s true, but why? ... Where’s it coming from?
[student: It’s karma.]

It’s your projections. It’s your projections. If, if you find them pleasant in
January what kind of karma is, is exhibiting itself. The result of what kind of
karma?
[students: Good karma]

Good karma. That’s the definition of good karma. A pleasant result over a
period of time is something that produces that. An action which produces that is
the definition of good karma. So, if this person seems wonderful to you, it’s
good karma ripening. It’s ripening in a stream. What’s the speed of ripening?
[student: Quick]

[student: Sixty-four fingersnaps per...]

[laughs] Sixty-four perceptions per fingersnap, okay, for you to keep seeing this
person as wonderful, it requires basically sixty-four instants, microseconds of
perceptual stuff ripening, popping up, every, every second. So maintaining that
perception for a week is like... it’s a hell of a lot of good karma. I mean you’re
burning an incredible, an extraordinary amount of good karma to continue to
see one person as sweet for a week. That’s an... that’s an extraordinary amount
of karma. It’s, it’s about as much as it would take to... if you know computers,
that many bites to keep a video going for a week. I mean it would take the
computing power of New York City or something to maintain that image three-
dimensionally for a week. And you, your mind is doing the same thing. It’s,
it’s, it’s trillions of karmas ripening and, and you’re seeing this thing move and
talk and, and look sweet for a whole month. It’s an extraordinary amount of
good karma. What’s the nature of that perception? I mean what’s the inevitable
result of that perception. It has to wear out. [laughs] It’s an extraordinary
amount of good karma and it must wear out, and it will wear out. And then
what happens? What’s left?
[students: Bad]

Bad karma. [laughs] So what happens to the person? Nothing, right? What
happens to your perceptions?          They start looking bad.         It changes.    It
degenerates. That’s also the process called old age because not only is it focusing
outwards towards other people, but you yourself, as you look down, will start to
see wrinkles and sagging and yellowing and falling out, and you’ll start to see
that because, because of the nature, that’s the nature of those perceptions.
They’re changing, they’re wearing out, like that, you know. And then the bad
karma asserts itself and we call it getting old. But it’s really just your projections
again. That’s the secret to old age if you want to know, okay. [laughs] [laughter]
That’s why it’s happening. I mean, you can say how it’s happening. I mean
scientists can tell you how it’s happening, “Oh this cell’s not producing the way it
used to. And this stomach is not generating juice like it used to. And this heart is
not beating the way it used to.” But you say “Why?” You know, “Why does it
happen?”. It’s those karmas are exhausting themselves. We are doomed. I
mean our projections are, the good karmas will wear out. Unless you find an
extraordinary understanding called “The Perfection of Wisdom” and then use it
to create some way out of that, and in this life it would take Tantra, you’ll never
get out of it in this life. You’re doomed. You will see yourself get old and you
will see yourself die. And that’s just the nature of those ripenings of karma. It, it
is all just a mental projection, but it’s real. That’s why it’s real. [phone ringing]
Wake up. [laughs] [laughter]. That’s where the {ngepa mepa}ness comes from.
That’s why nothing is fixed. It’s a lot easier to understand now. You don’t have
to feel guilty about not liking this person anymore. [laughs] Okay. They really
did shift. The perceptions did shift. And they always will. You know, I, I was
very comforted by this first suffering because I thought I was a bad guy, you
know? But it’s the same with anything, anything you like, you’ll start to, you’ll
start to, your perceptions will start to shift. Because they are being projected by
karma and the karma is wearing out. And, and then you’ll naturally not like the
thing anymore, you know.
[John: So, so does it stand to reason, then that someone who could generate
enough virtuous karma would be able to manifest the body which never ages or
dies or something to that effect?]
Absolutely, that’s the whole purpose of higher teachings.
[ John: Then...]

That’s the whole purpose of the secret teachings.
[John: I mean, I guess I know the answer to this question, but why don’t you
ever see it? I guess you don’t have the karma.]
Say that again.
[John: Why doesn’t one ever see something like that?]

You don’t have the karma to see it. It might have happened to me already. You
might think I’m a just a ...
[John: A guy. ]

Whatever. And vice versa; I have no idea what level you’re at. You know, you
could be anything, but I can’t see it. That’s why... by the way, we can’t see the
Buddha in this world. We have extraordinary karma to see the Dalai Lama, you
know, and our teachers, we have this extraordinary karma but that’s wearing
out too, and he looks like he’s getting... old. And it will wear out, and we’ll be in
a world without them. So, we have to take advantage of it while it’s here.
Okay, number... but it’s just this thing of nothing is fixed, I mean good and bad
just floats around like that over the objects in your life, you know. First they
seem good, then they seem bad, then maybe they seem good again and it just
keep going on like that. In general, your physical and mental condition is just
degenerating, it’s just... it’s not fixed. If you’re not smart or intelligent or
handsome, or, or, or anything, fixed, because those projections are always
degenerating, they’re always losing their energy and you will see yourself get
old and stupid and senile and ugly, inevitably. So you don’t have to think of the
suffering of that you’re trying to escape by coming to Buddhism class as, as you
know cancer or AIDS or some... it’s not, it’s not like that. We have this all the
time. We... we’re under the control of it this. This is why you come to Buddhism
class. Number two. [silence]
Say {ngom} [repeats] {mi shepa} [repeats] {ngom} [repeats] {mi shepa} [repeats].
Really nasty suffering. [silence]

[Nina: Ever or just can’t?]

[laughs] We’ll talk about it. [laughter][laughs] That’s what attracted Nina [snap]
in the first place, a lecture at some point she was in the front row what about...
[laughs] [laughter]. {Nome mishapa} means this. And the Panchen Lama
explains it very beautifully. He says, “You see something you want and then
you go and obtain it. And then in a sense you bring it into your being.” Right? I
mean when you get something you’re like an amoeba surrounding something
and then bringing it in and then it... you digest it, you know? And that’s
obtaining something, whether it’s a book that you wanted or, or an album that
you wanted or, or a person that you wanted to have a relationship with or
something you wanted to eat or you, you , you go and obtain it and then you
digest it, you know? And that process is supposed to make you happy. I mean
that’s called, “fulfilling your hopes.” You know you, you want something and
you go and get it and then you devour it. And that’s, that’s called the “pursuit of
happiness,” you know, that’s... and then as soon as you get it and devour it, it’s
supposed to bring some kind of contentment or satisfaction. Nothing has that.
We don’t have that reaction to anything. We, we are very messed up this way.
As soon as we own it, we’re unsatisfied again. Almost immediately. I mean
sometimes it takes a week, sometimes it takes a month, sometimes it takes five
minutes, sometimes you’re sick of the thing before you even stand up again.
[laughter] [laughs] You know? But you go through all this work to obtain things
and then as soon as you get them they don’t, they don't stop to itch, the itch
keeps going on, and, and that’s the nature of anything you can obtain. You go
to get things, you make them yours and then suddenly you want something
else, or, or it doesn’t make you happy. And, and the Panchen Lama says... it’s
very strange, you know. It’s almost is like when you obtain things they make
you want more and you suffer from those things. So the pursuit of happiness is
the pursuit of suffering, [laughs] you know? It’s a very weird thing. And I, I can
think of this... I think the most classic example is... I mean when I went to work
and I remember I couldn’t get a job and I, I wanted to work in the diamond
business, I had to work in the diamond business. I went to thirty different
companies, they all threw me out. And then finally I met this guy and I begged
him, “I’ll do anything, I’ll wash the windows, I’ll, I’ll clean the floor, I’ll do
anything, just teach me the diamonds.” And so he said okay and he gave me
like seven dollars an hour. I remember. And I had to carry things from thirty-
third street to fourth-seventh street and that was my job. And then one day he
gave me eight dollars, and then later on he gave me nine dollars, and then he
gave me ten dollars, and then he gave me a salary and then I got a position and
then it was fifty thousand, and sixty thousand and it kept going, escalating, you
know and then finally it reached this point where I’m the vicepresident and I
have to have all these things. You know, at the beginning I didn’t know what to
do with the money. I, I just put it in the bank account and I didn’t know what to
do with it, you know, I just collected it. And now it seems like I can’t bear, I’m,
I’m overspent usually [laughter] and I can’t bear to live without it, you know,
and... And, and my mind still wants more, you know your mind wants more.
And that’s the nature of all things you can obtain. Everything. You come to a
class, the first time that you come, you’re so grateful to be in a Buddhism class
and it seems so cool, you know. And then after a couple of courses you’re like
kind of getting kind of tired of it and then after about a year you say “Oh, I
didn’t like the way he taught that one.” [laughs] [laughter], you know. And it’s,
it’s not your fault. It’s, it’s natural, it’s the nature of our minds, you know? The
people... I interviewed somebody today and they’re all so fresh and happy and
glad to be in class, and then, two years from now they’ll be, “Oh yeah, another
class” [laughter], you know. And it’s not your fault, it’s not you, it’s this, it’s
{ngom mi shepa} it’s the nature of, of our minds. And they always want more
and everytime you get something you want more, something bigger. And it, it’s
just the nature of our minds and it’s a, and it is the second suffering. And we
have it how often?
[students: unclear]

It never stops. It never stops. So don’t think of the suffering of humans and
devas as being, you know, burning with lead and beating with a stick, these are
sufferings we have in our hearts.
[student: But can’t you do, before you get enlightened, start training yourself
where you start understanding, I guess you were saying, the true nature of
things so it isn’t suffering, like, with, with the first one where you work on the
equanimity where all the people you loved... ]

Yeah.
[student: ...and that you want to treat you well and love the people who you
don’t like treated you in a kind way and you start more and more equanimity
towards everybody or this where you appreciate but would would that be an
attached cling so...]

I’ll, I’ll say, I’ll say. And that, all the Buddhist texts, like Shantideva’s text,
Nagarjuna’s text the first seventy-five percent of the book is “dharma tricks to
put up with the crap of life,” you know. [laughter] You know, it’s like, okay,
things are, things are bad but let’s, let’s think about the good side, alright. You
know, this person’s yelling at you but think about they’re your teacher and, you
know... really, seriously. That’s... And then they reach a point in their books,
Nagarjuna reaches it’s on page sixty-something, and he says, “But that’s not
ending suffering that’s just learning how to put up with suffering” you know?
“Why live in an existence where you have to put up with suffering” you know?
There... everything is possible. Since things are empty, since things are empty,
you don’t have to live in a world like this. You don’t have to live in a world
where American’s have to have all the wealth and other people have to be poor.
You can live in a world where everybody has wealth. Because that’s the nature
of karma. In other words, you don’t have to put up with crap. It, dharma and,
and, and the... Somebody told me they... there’s this great Korean mosochist
who can sit in the snow for [laughs] six hours. I said “Yeah but I want to live in a
world where I don’t have to sit in the snow for six hours” you know. [laughter]
You know, that’s not the point, it’s not to endure suffering, that’s not it. You
actually want to change reality. And you can, once you understand the dharma.
Then you just change the world. You won’t be able to perceive the suffering.
You just won’t have it. So, we’re not learning psychological tricks, we’re
learning ultimate reality tricks. To change the actual nature of our world. Which
requires an understanding of emptiness and, and, and compassion, and those
two things, and then you can do it. So I, I really, strongly don’t like the thing
about put... you know learning to sit for four hours, and, and, live with the pain.
So what, you know, you’re getting old in the meantime. And there’ll be a time
when you can’t sit for four hours and live with the pain. So what’s the point,
you know? I want to live in a world where my body doesn’t have any pain.
Cannot have pain. That’s a different thing. Okay, that’s number...two. They get
your mind fertile for higher things, and that’s why they’re in Nagarjuna’s book,
in Tsongkapa’s book. [silence]
Say {yang yang} [repeat] {lu ndorwa} [repeat] {yang yang} [repeat] {lu ndorwa }
[repeat]. {Yang yang} means over and over again. [silence]
{Lu ndorwa} means to... shed your body. I had a lot of problems with this when
I was studying Buddhism... I mean when I first started about twenty-five years
ago. And I... the other two sufferings I understood. This one, I didn’t believe in
future lives, particularly. I, I didn’t see it as a big problem of shedding bodies,
you know, it wasn’t like I could remember having gone through a hundred
bodies and there’d be this big pile of, a, skeletons outside that... and then
remember how much it hurt to give up those bodies. I mean I didn’t, it didn’t
impress me at all, ‘cause it would take, it would take a great leap of faith for me
to worry about all the bodies I’ve gotten rid of. You know, it didn’t, it just didn’t
mean much to me, and I used to, you know, “Go on to the next one” because it
didn’t seem like an important problem to me. First of all I couldn’t... didn’t even
know if I believed it. And then it, even if I believed it, you know, so “Okay if
you die you gotta give up the body and then you get another one, you know, so
what’s the deal.      And I... but the Panchen Lama gives a very beautiful
explanation in [b: Ngulchu], they give a really beautiful explanation. They talk
about it in terms like this: there’s this contradiction - we had this contradiction
with {Ngom mi shepa}, number two. The contradiction is you go to get things to
make you happy and then when you get them they make you miserable, you
know? I mean, that’s a contradiction. It seems like when you obtain something
you’ve been trying to get you should at least have some peace for awhile. I
mean it should make you happy for awhile. And then not create more desire in
you so that you’re unhappier later than you were before you had it. That’s a
contradiction. And this one is also. And the point is this, we have this natural
prejudice to take care of our own bodies more than other people’s bodies. You
know, like we’re all just minds, right? And we all possess a body. But why is it
you take more care of your body than someone else's body? What is that
prejudice? I mean, what, what does it mean? I mean why should you be more
concerned you’re more well-fed than somebody else? You know, why should
you care more about this flesh than somebody else’s flesh? You have to give it
up anyway. I mean nobody here in their right mind’ll say, “Oh, I’m gonna keep
this body for a thousand years,” you know, it’s not like that. You know it’s a
temporary situation. You know that, that someday it’s gonna get cancer or
AIDS or something, you know, it’s gonna have some kind of disease invade it
and you’re gonna lose it. You know, one of the organs’ll fail and they’ll take that
body and they’ll throw it out. But still you have this incredible obsession with
your body. You know, you want to make sure that it has the best coffee
[laughter] and that it has most comfortable room and that it’s driving the best
car.    And, and you’re just concerned about your body.            You have this
unreasonable prejudice for your body as opposed to everybody else's body.
That makes you do some kind there’s a karma, what? Bad karma. I mean it’s
the nature of being so prejudiced in favor of your body, you know... is that you
will withhold things from other people so you can take care of your body. It’s
the nature of having your body, I mean it’s a part of our life. You know, you
don’t send ninty percent of your income to Africa for poor people because you
have a prejudice for your body. See, you want your body to have a new shirt
today. When it could feed a monk in India for a month, you know, three
months, actually [laughs]. But you just have this natural prejudice for your
body. And then because of that you, you withhold things, you, you store
wealth, you deny it from other people. And then the paradox is that by taking
care of your body something happens. When you die can you take the body
with you? Can you take any, any atom of anything you own with you? No.
What’s the only thing you take, I mean you take what?
[student: Your karma.]

And your m... you take your mind. And your mind it filled up with these
karmas. Which are by the way going off right now and that’s why you’re having
a Buddhism class, you know? And that’s, that’s more karma than to be pretty
for a half-hour [laughter] is to be in a Bu ... a Buddhism class is like ten-thousand
times more karma being used up. To stay, to stay in this class for half an hour is,
is using up an extremely high amount, the highest amount of karma you can.
We used to talk when I was in college about how could you spend money the
fastest way. Somebody said fly around the world all the time or something
[laughs]. But sitting in a dharma class, I mean you’re using up [cut]

[unclear] of being prejudice you take with you. You take with you the karma.
And then it makes you suffer. So it’s weird. You’re trying to watch out for
yourself and the paradox is, is that, is that you’re setting yourself up for more
suffering. And so the Panchen Lama says, “Don’t think about this. Don’t get
hung up in the words here. The point is you’re shedding bodies but you’re
collecting these huge bad karmas by being so prejudiced in favor of your body,
you know? And, and you have to recognize it. See, if you want to avoid this
suffering you have to avoid that attitude. Very difficult, extremely difficult.
Yeah.
[student: But don’t you also generate a lot of good karma being in a Buddhist
class or do you just shed it away?]

Depends a lot of your attitude. You know, if you’re coming here ‘cause you
want to learn a new language you want to impress your friends, which is partly
of why I, I come [laughs]. You know, if, if you have motivation like that then it’s
just sort of neutral. If your motivation is really well, “If I could sit in that class
and learn how to change this existence into enlightenment in this life, you know,
get out of this flesh in this life before I die...” if you have that motivation it’s
extraordinary. Then, then you’re collecting good karma every minute you’re
here. Actually, just to hear these things is, is great karma. [laughter] So, I mean
there’s an upward cycle, and there’s a downward cycle, [laughs] you know? I
think most of us are on an upward cycle, maybe slow but, [laughter] but just to
be here is, is good karma. It is collecting new good karma. We’ll take a break
for a couple of minutes.
[student, John: Which out weighs is which?] [laughter]

What’s that?
[John: Which out weighs which? If we’re burning up mass amounts of karma
being here and collecting karma... ]
By the way that’s how we dedicate “{gewa diyi kyewo kun}” at the end. It
means supposedly you’re putting in the bank by, by recalling that “I want it to
be for, for those purposes.”
[John: Could, could it be said you collect more virtuous karma by being here or
use more virtuous karma by being here?]

[laughs] Again I think it’s your attitude. If your attitude is that “I, I would like to
help people by being here,” then it’s probably you’re collecting more than
you’re burning up. But almost any other at... you tell me how many people lose
their lamas and how many people gain lamas? You know, how many people get
old and don’t have any more dharma classes to go to and how many people get
old and have even sweeter dharma experiences happening to them? You know,
I mean, that’s the answer, I guess.

[cut]

[laughter] {Nyingtsam Jorwa} is a difficult expression. Basically it means rebo...,
reborn. And it’s a very difficult word. It appears all over the [b:: Abidharma]
and [b:: Ngulchu]... gives a beautiful explanation of it. Since you guys aren’t in
the Tibetan class I won’t go through it. [laughter] Basically it means something
like “going over the threshold again and again”. The threshold between death
and birth. And possibly going through that again and again. The energy that
sends you across that threshold - in fact we’re covering on Friday nights, we’re
doing the wheel of life and there’s a certain kind of energy that projects you
across that threshold. And then there are certain kinds of karmic energies
ripening on that threshold. And... and the nature of the ones that throw you
across that threshold into the next life, they’re defective. I mean they, they, they
have built-in sufferings. They are the karma that’s now operating with us and
that’s why we’re getting old and bald and ugly and forgetful and not as healthy
as we used to be. I mean, again, you don’t have to think of this so much as a big
deal. You know, you go to your friends at work and you say “Last night I had a
really great class and I figured out how to be not to get reborn again and again.”
And they’ll say “Yeah, well, so what,” you know? But the point is not to go
through this again and again. Not to be caught in a situation where the energy
which is actually driving your life is degen... is by is doomed to degenerate. Is
doomed to wear out. And you, you must and you will get old and, and it’s just
inevitable. And that’s, that’s the real essence of {Yang Yang Lu Ndorwa}. The
energy which projects you into this life. The energy which made you young
and healthy and strong and handsome is the same energy that‘s gonna make
you old and stupid and ugly. [laughs] And it’s inevitable. And we’ll all go
through it. You know, and people have, you know, whadya you call it, anxiety
attacks... well actually, that’s the correct reaction [laughs] [laughter]. Don’t get
paralyzed, but, I mean, that’s actually based on a correct perception. We’re
gonna study death meditation in the last two classes and he’s gonna talk, Je
Tsongkapa’s, going to talk about how to use those anxiety attacks to get
enlightened, actually. That’s the essence of death meditation, but we’ll talk about
it. So that’s problem number four. Problem number five.
[students all at once [unclear]]

What’s that?
[student: What was the translation for that?]

“Being born again and again”. But you could say, “crossing the border again
and again” [silence] It’s even a difficult...
[student: [unclear] see the difference between...]

Yeah, somebody asked me that in the other class. Think about the one of losing
your body again and again. More, I mean, when you explain it to your students,
okay, when you take this notebook number eight down off the shelf, because
someone has asked you two years from now “How do you do death
meditation?” You say, “Okay, well listen, first we have to go over the realms,
you know?” And, and they say, “Well what, what’s the difference between
number four... number three and number four?” And you say, “Well {lu
Ndorwa}, you know, shedding your body again and again, mostly refers to the
paradox that by taking care of your body, you collect karmas which you have to
take with you and then the thing you were taking care of you can’t take with
you and, and, and, and that’s causing you all these sufferings. You see that’s
more of the point of number three.
[student: Oh, so it’s just different emphasis]

yeah, yeah
[student: on the same [unclear]]

Well really number three is the suffering that’s created by this prejudice of taking
care of your body as opposed to others. And then number four is more of the
suffering that’s inevitable
by the nature of the karma that’s projecting every life you ever will have. And
you’ll be like that king... I don’t know if you know the story of the king who, the
ministers came to him and reported, this is an ancient Indian story, that the
water was getting infected and it would make everybody crazy. And, so the
king... they have to drink, you know, it’s the only water in the kingdom, you
have to drink. So he’s like, holding out. Everybody around him is going crazy,
flipping out, because they drink the water and then he holds out for two three
four days as long as he can. Then he realizes he’s going to have to drink the
water. So he makes a big “X” on his forehead, you know, with some charcoal,
you know, so he won’t forget that he’s crazy. [laughter] And then he, he drinks
the water, you know [laughs]. And then he’s looking in the mirror and he says,
“What the hell is this “X”, you know. [laughter][laughs] You know, and he can’t
remember, you know.” And that’s... it’s the same I mean you won’t remember
this cla... I mean {Nyingtsam Jorwa} means when you pass that threshold
everything is lost. I mean, you have this very short window of opportunity
now. The energy that threw you into this life and into this building and into this
room and into this lecture is by definition wearing out and you have a brief
opportunity between the end and now to do something - hopefully practice very
seriously. Do the retreats that you have to do. Perceive the things that you have
to perceive. Meditate properly, everyday. Practice the higher teachings, keep
your bodhisattva vows and your tantric vows, and then, and then change... get
out before you forget why you’re here, you know. You know, before you
forget what the “X” was all about, you know. It’s a very brief period; you have
about ten years, five years? I don’t know. It’s a very brief window. Then after
that, you’ll be too old. And you, you won’t really understand these things
anymore. They..they’ll fade. And then when you cross the threshold it’s, forget
it, you know. And then to get back into a place where they’re talking about
those things is very difficult; it’s almost impossible. So it’s a very short time.
Number five. [silence] Say {yang yang} [repeat] {to-men du} [repeat] {gyurwa}
[repeat]{yang yang} [repeat] {to-men du} [repeat] {gyurwa} [repeat] {Yang
yang} means...
[students: over and over again]

Okay, {to} means high, {men} means low, {gyurwa} means to change. What it
means is you keep cycling in your life, you know. You keep going up and down
and up and down, you know. One minute you’re the boss at work, six months
later everyone’s calling you a stupid head. One minute you’re double ton, the
successful financier, six months later you’re bankrupt and everyone’s making
fun of you in the newspapers , you know. One minute you’re a beauty model
and six months later you’re a big failure and you’re drug addict and, and people
just constantly cycle like that. We all cycle. And, and if you’ve been alive for
awhile you know that. I mean you you get a job where they think you’re hot,
hot stuff then six months later everybody thinks you’re stupid. and you’re the
same person, [laughs] you know. Perceptions are shifting. But it’s the nature of
that same energy that’s driving our own minds and our own perceptions. It, it, it
comes and goes it goes in these huge waves and, and that energy goes through
waves and then we perceive things getting better and then things getting worse,
and then things getting better and then things getting worse, and there is... that’s
the very most basic meaning of this. I mean, and you... it’ll just keep happening.
As long as you’re here it’ll keep happening. You know, you get handsome,
strong, then you get weak and ugly. Then you get a position at work and then
the company closes and then everything just will keep cycling up and down.
You feel like your life is finally straightened out, then you get cancer, [laughs]
you, know and things like that [laughter] you know? It’ll just keep going like
this and that’s its nature because it’s not changing, its empty and your
projections are changing and they must change because they are driven by
karma which is fluctuating. When karma is fluctuating your perceptions will
fluctuate and there’s no way to get out of it. Even if you know it, it doesn’t help
because it’s real. Even if you’re aware of what’s going on, it doesn’t mean it’s
gonna be nice at work when they lay you off, you know. It doesn’t help. In fact
it hurts a little more that you know what’s going on. [laughs] Okay. {Ngulchu}
explains it three ways. He says there’s that...anytime you get a high position you
must fall. And you’ve seen that often enough in politics and, and if you’ve... in
business, in the business world. You know these mighty companies, you know,
Apple Computer, I think, is this week’s victim, you know [laughs]. They go up
and then they go down.            Then he says any re... it’s the same with any
relationship, he says. He, he equates it on a second level to all relationships:
personal relationships, interpersonal relationships... anyone you ever connect up
with, the nature of our perceptions is that you split with them. You, you must.
And if it’s not a a nasty split before you die then it’ll be death itself. So you will
split. There’s nobody, there’s no relationship you can share with anyone that
does, that will not end in, in, in a ... losing them. It’s the nature of our
perceptions and, and that’s inevitable. On... and then on the third level he says
that life itself is aimed at what?
[student: Death]
Death. I mean life itself is aimed at separation. You know, just to be alive is...
the, the height of being alive is gonna lead to death. The only result of life is
death. The only place where... the destination of life is death. He says, that,
that’s how {Ngulchu} explains... and you’ll see in the readings its very beautiful.
That’s how he explains going from high to low. Last suffering [silence]
[student: Yeah. it’s so hot.]

Yeah, it didn’t work all winter and now it’s... [laughs] [laughter] That must be
suffering. Number seven.
[student: unclear]

Don’t forget it. Say {drok} [repeat] {mepa} [repeat] {drok mepa} [repeat]. {Drok}
means companion and mepa means...
[student: Fixed?]

There is none. Oh that was op...opposite [laughs] [silence] And what it basically
means is that... I mean, people often ask me can you collect karma for somebody
else, you know? Can you, can you take someone else’s karma away? And in
the Abhidharma system more than any other system, you are your karma. You
are the flow of your karma. You, John McCane exist of the flow of your karma.
I mean that’s all that you are. So to, to ask me if, if Michael Roach’s karma could
be transferred to someone else is, is, is a ridiculous question in Buddhism. You,
you are your own karma. You are what the result of what you did before. And
you cannot share it with anyone else. And, and basically your, your path or
your life is totally separate from other lives. Even buddhas, you know, they say
that the buddhas all mix into one great brain, a universal brain. No, I mean a
sentient continuum, continuum of a mind is and always will be separate.
Buddhas are different personalities. They all share, especially their dharmakayas
are very much the same nature but, but are they one being? No. We are and we
always will be separate beings. What’s the implication for us is that you’ll always
be alone, you cannot have any companions.                You’ll meet with people
temporarily and then you lose them. And it will always be like that. You, you
can’t have anybody that you stay with. It won’t be like that. It can’t be like that.
You will always lose any companion you ever have, you will lose. And no one
can go with you especially when you die. No one can, can go with you. And
Nagarjuna takes a... he takes the, the moment, he takes the opportunity at this
moment... he has a very beautiful line here and he says, “Do not therefore do a
bad deed for anyone.” And he says, “Don’t do it for your friend, don’t do it for
your parents, don't do it for your Lama,” he says. He’s very powerful here. He
says, “No one can experience karma for you if you do something it’s, its’s
sticking in your mental continuum. It’ can’t be shared by anyone else. Don’t do
bad things for anybody. Even spiritual teachers gets up and says do this or do
that if it’s wrong don’t do it because you... in the end your {drok mepa} your,
your sentient... your continuum of your mind, the stream of your mind is totally
separate from others. And you, anything that you put there is... the only person
who’s gonna suffer is you.” He says, “Don’t judge other people. Don’t worry
about other people. Concentrate on your mental continuum because that’s the
one you’re stuck with. Don’t, don’t absolutely don’t worry about, I mean help
other people, be kind to other people, if you can correct other people correct
‘em, but mainly...ninty-nine percent of your effort, focus on your mental stream
because you’re stuck with it and you’re totally alone in this life, in the bardo, in
the next life. No one’s going with you. You know, your wife, your friends
nobody, teacher, nobody. You’re by yourself. Ultimately, you’re on your own.
And you have to...your practice has to reflect that, you know? You have to...
especially about your own morality or your own... watching your attitude don’t
be so worried about other people. Watch your own mental stream. You can’t
judge... you don’t know what other people are but you know what you are.
And, and, and karma cannot jump from one continuum to another. Cannot. So
take... concentrate on your mind and your practice and, and make it good and
don’t do evil for anyone. You, you... she had a question.
[student: Yeah. How does group karma or one’s karmic connections to other
people fit into all this?]

Oh, there’s a thing where... first of all, because we’re having a class together
tonight and because we’re talking sweet dharma we will meet again with...
inevitably we will meet again. We will be together and the reason we’re
together tonight is that we were together before. We did some good thing
together. We served some Lama before together or we did something good
together. We helped people learn Dharma and so all from all over the world in
all these weird childhoods we all are here together tonight. You know, I mean,
we finally got together after all those years and so there’s that, that’s true. And,
and that’s... you can have a communal experience that’s cre... a communal
projection. And we talked about it in the [b:: Diamond Sutra] that the sun
coming up in the morning is a communal projection. I mean, everyone who’s
enjoying the sun and there’s beings who can’t, are all making the same
projections at the same time because we gave light to someone and we gave
warmth to someone before. Therefore we all see... there is this communal
experience of karma but each person is experiencing it separately and, and
always will. Yeah?
[student: What about these spiritual practices that will supposedly take the
karma of somebody else...]

It’s uh...
[same student: ... purify it. I mean is that strictly to enhance your own [unclear]
and it doesn’t do anything?]

Technically, you can’t. You know. And we asked this... Tom Kiley and I went to
my Lama in Sera Mey, he’s a great scholar and we asked him this question, you
know. And he said maybe you could interpret it in some extraordinary cases
where the Lama and the disciple are so close that some extraordinary blessing
could be given because of the total, almost the oneness of them. But, but
generally speaking, it’s a contradiction. You can’t. And, and the first Dalai Lama
in this commentary to the [b: Abhidharma Kosha] says, at the beginning, “You
cannot take another person’s karma, and you cannot give them...” you know, he
said, “You can’t sprinkle water on someone’s head and their bad deeds go away.
It’s impossible. You’re responsible for your own mind. You are the result of
your own mind.” [laughs]
[student, Nina: So what he is referring to is [unclear] you become [unclear]
compassion towards those beings]

Oh absolutely but, but then it says, “How does the Buddha remove suffering?”
You know. “What is the method?” Is there any method that he could go into
your mind stream and suck out some bad karma or something. He said,
“Absolutely not.” The, the main activity of a Buddha always was and always will
be teaching dharma to people. You know. Coming to that planet and teaching.
Cuz that’s, that’s the only way that people have... you have to teach people to
help themselves. That’s the only...You can’t... if, if it were in any infinitely small
way possible to help someone otherwise, the Buddha would have done it long
ago or else he’s not compassionate. What is he, a sadist that he wants us to go
through it first [laughter] and then he’ll fix it later? [laughs] You know he just
wants to watch the bugs crawl, you know. That’s the proof actually in a debate,
you know. Why would the Buddha just sit and watch us suffer if there were any
way, any, any slight way to suck a little bit of our bad karma out, you know,
wouldn’t he do it? He would have done it when he first saw our suffering which
was thousands of years ago. Our present suffering. He can’t. He’s helpless. All
he can do is communicate to us when we’re ready. That’s all. One more and
then we’ll stop.
[student: Yeah, if the Buddhas also are separate beings would they still be said
to suffer in a certain way?]
Never.
[same student: But yet they ha .. they are all by themselves too and its suffering
[unclear] ...]

That’s a {tsa}, oh yeah. You’re a good debater. We’ll say to have no companion
in suffering, hows that? [laughs] [laughter] No, these are sufferings of realm
number four and five.
[student: Okay]

In samsara. In the circle of life. And they’re not in there.
[John: Are these, are these the sufferings of pleasure beings then?]

Yeah, that’s the point you see. Cuz the people in those pleasure being realms... I
mean like, do they have cancer?
[John: At the very end.]

Are they capable of even having pain?
[John: Only at the end.]

Yeah, only at the very, very end but generally speaking once you reach a certain
level you don’t even have pleasure any more. It’s{tong yong}it’s called the
sensation there is like a deep novicane or something. And they’re just buzzed
out because of the meditation they did in their last life. They’ve even reached the
point beyond sensation. Normal sensations. They’re just like on heroin or
something. They’re just totally... nothing, you know. {Chiung may} Just buzzed
out ... and. But, but these six sufferings are going on all the time. They have
been.
[student: [unclear]...is that impermanence?]

They have that too, yeah. Okay, we’ll do... [laughs] Don’t feel too bad, I mean
at least we got a dharma class. [laughs] [laughter]. Alright.
[prayer: short mandala offering]

[prayer: dedication]
Transcriptions