ACI 4 «Доказательство будущих жизней», занятие 9

ACI 4, Class 9
Proofs for the Causes of the Mind
Transcribed by Winston McCullough



 ... means {normor}, and if you know {tamel nangshen} from the Vajrayogini
teachings, you know what that means, so {tamelpa} here means "normal
person." It means a non-arhat, a person who has not yet destroyed his bad
emotions permanently.           {tarmelpa}        {Chika} means, {chiwa} means
"death." {chika} means "in the mouth of death," and it means "at the moment of
death," okay {chikay} {rikpa} means "mind" okay, and {chu chen} means "let's,
let's consider that," and that's the typical way to start a debate {unclear}. Let's
take the mind of a normal person at death. {rikpa chimar} means {rikpa} means
"mind." {chimar} means "into a future mind," okay. The {ra} means "into," and
{chima} means "later, future" mind. {tsam jortay} {tsam jortay} means "it must
cross the line into a future mind." It must cross the line from death to rebirth
into a future mind, mind. {tsam jortay} Why? {chakje gyi rikpa yinpay chir,
chakje gyi rikpa yinpay chir} {chakje} means "it has desire," okay. [student: I
apologize for saying this but I can't both write everything down, and then be
able to write down what you say, I'm behind by about two minutes.] Oh, okay.
{chakje} means, {charpar} means "desire." {chakje} means "it has desire, he
possesses desire." What? His mind possesses desire. {rikpa} means, this is mis-
spelled. {rikpa} means "mind." {yinpay chir} means "it is." So the whole proof,
you know, if I say it just in one shot means "consider the mind of a normal
person at the moment of death." {rikpa chimar tsam jortay} which means "he
will cross the line, or that mind will cross the line into a future mind." And then
number th, the third part is {chakje gyi rikpa yinpay chir}"because that state of
mind has desire," meaning the state of mind at death has desire. Dharmakirti is
giving this argument to whom? The Charvakas, okay, Hindus, and they're
supposed to buy this? I, I didn't feel comfortable. You know, I don't even think,
you know, I don't see how it works. I don't see the mechanism by which having
desire in your mind at your death is gonna ensure that you have another state of
mind, samsaric state, I don't understand it, you know. I didn't, I wasn't satisfied
with it, but it seems to be important. It seems to be the key to not going back to
samsara, you know, to not getting born into this lousy kind of life. This is a
lousy kind of life. If you could get out of it to a nicer kind of life, it'd be great,
you know, and that's just Buddhism. That's the whole point of Buddhism. You
know, you don't have to die, you don't have to get old, you don't have to live
this kind of lousy stinky life, you know. You can, there is a better one. You can
get there. You just have to know how. [student: unclear] Well I, I don't see how
a Charvaka is supposed to buy this, and I don't understand perfectly the
mechanism either, and I, we're going to talk about that tonight. I think it's
important. [student: It's not explained [unclear]]. Oh, we're going to go through
the whole thing. Michael, could you bring me that wheel of life picture?
[student: But this one doesn't seem any less understandable] Yeah, yeah, I know.
They wouldn't buy the other ones either. Not all of those other proofs are
meant to be, I mean there's different levels of proof. I don't know if you could
see it, but it'd be a whole course to teach you the wheel of life. [student: I'm
sorry, I really got lost, but I got everything down except for the last line "has
desire," {chakje}] Because that state of mind at death has the emotion of desire, it
has desire. That's why he's going to have to take a future life. [student: Excuse
me, what's the "kyi"?] "Of" In Tibetan, you have to say "a mind of having
desire." [student: I didn't get the second line...] Okay. Consider the mind of a
normal person at the moment of death, it will have to pass, it will have to cross
over into a new mind, meaning a new lousy suffering mind, okay [laughs].
Why? Because at the moment of death that mind has desire. [student: What's
{yupay chir?}] "It is." {chir} means "because." I didn't think you guys cared about
the Tibetan. [student: Has desire of {chakje kyi} and {rikpa}...] {rikpa} means
"mind." {yinpa} means "is," and {chir} means "because." So I want to, I don't have
time to go over the whole wheel of life. It's a big subject. It's a great subject.
We'll probably have to do a whole course on it sometime, but we're going to
concentrate on four of the links, okay. The twelve links of dependent origination
are contained in the wheel of life. They're here. They start here, and they go
clockwise, you know, one, two, three, four, five, up to twelve, okay? You all
right? You can't see it very well, but I'll, by the way anyone can have one of
these posters. We have a lot. Someone gave them to us, and if you treat it nice
I'll give you one, maybe as a, when you come to take your final. The second link
here is a man making pots, and that's called {duje kyi le, samskaris} and there's a
lot of strange translations, a lot of lousy translations. What it means is "the
karma that you collect during your life, making karma," and doesn't it make
sense? You have a guy there making pots, okay. That's all it means. You can see
"compositional factors" and you don't know what it means. I mean people
translate it very weird stuff. It has nothing to do with that. It's the making of
karma during your life. {chakje kyi, nyiba duje kyi le} That's the second link.
Then all these other links occur during your life. You get to link number eight,
eight, okay. Link number eight, if you want to come up and see it after, you
know, during the break, there's a man, there's a lady pouring wine into a man's
cup. There's normally a man pigging out. He's having a feast, and that, that's
number eight. Link number eight is called "craving," {gepa sepa}. Number eight
is called "craving." Number nine, {gupa lenba} is, usually it's a monkey grabbing
fruits. In this one it's a person, but normally it's a monkey grabbing fruit. So
there's "craving" and then "grasping." Those are link number eight and link
number nine, okay. [student: Is it a monkey?] It's usually a monkey grabbing
for a fruit, and that's "grasping." I'll explain them later. {chupa sipa}, number ten,
is normally a pregnant woman. Here they have a man and a woman lying
together, but normally it's a pregnant woman, and that's the one they translate
as "becoming" or "existence," and that means ripe karma, very very ripe karma,
the kind of karma that can make you take another life. Now where does, where
does, by the way, number ten, which is ripe karma is just number two, the
karma that you did during your life suddenly made potent. I like to compare it
to plutonium, you know, like there are people running around with plutonium
nowadays, but if you, if you got a bag of plutonium you can't do anything with
it. You need a, you need another TNT explosive inside of it, and that one blows
up and then the plutonium blows up. You need a trigger. The bomb needs a
trigger. There has to be a normal explosive inside the plutonium to make it
blow, or else it won't blow up, and this is the same. {nyipa duje kyi le}, the
second link, which is the karma that you've done during your life, physical,
mental, or verbal can't do anything unless it's triggered. It has to become ripe
karma before it can what? {student: Blow up in your face} and create a new life
which is, you know, naturally the next link. Here's a woman giving birth. That's
birth. That's rebirth. [student: Eleven is birth?] We'll get to that. [student: Is that
this one?] Not exact, similar, similar. [student: Are you saying eleven is birth or
twelve is birth?] Eleven is birth. Number eleven is birth. Twelve is old age and
death, okay, but we're not going to go into the whole link. [student: unclear]
Okay, so number eleven here is very graphic. It's a lady giving birth. So, why
doesn't birth come after number two? [student: Because it has to ripen.] It has to
ripen. Something has to trigger it. Something has to make it potent. Some
other thing has to occur for karma to, to cause a new birth, and that thing is, are
these two links, number eight and number nine. What are they? [students:
Craving and grasping.] Yeah, craving and grasping, okay. That's the key to
Dharmakirti's argument. Why? [student: Because he said desire.] He said
"desire." He said if the mind has desire, when? [students: At the time of death]
At the moment of death, then, then that, that mind will flow on, flop over into a
new mind. Now we finally saw what really, where, where really the first
moment of your mind came from, what was the material cause that turned into
the first moment of your mind. It was, it was the last moment of your mind in
the last life. [student: What kind of desire?] We're going to get into it in great
detail, and that's why this class is important and it's a sweet subject for the tenth
class tonight. [Vilma Staiano: So, so you can do all kind of really awful things as
long as it's not connected to grasping?] We're gonna talk about it. I mean, that
was the feeling I felt people had last class. That's why I wanted people to come
to this class,
you know. When Dharmakirti gives this argument, he says, I mean, the, what
we call the {keba}, the {dokya je kyab}, the logical inferences here are if you
could die without desire, you'd be okay. It seems like he's saying that. [student:
I'm having a problem with the definition of [unclear]]              We'll get there.
{nyerlengyigyu}? [student: No, I understand material cause.] Okay, what other
causes. [student: The first problem that I have is that you use the term in the first
question in the homework or the quiz "unique cause," but in the text "unique
cause" is used in the way that you would not use "material cause."] Right, that's
why he used a different word. [student: So I assume that when you say "unique
cause" you mean "material cause."] No, not necessarily. [student: Well then how
are we supposed to know what you're talking about?] When I say "unique" it's
different from material. Now, what's unique? Unique means, unique, in the
arguments about body and mind, have, has a lot of meanings, but it basically
means, the, the one that's such that, it basically refers to the way that body,
according to the non-Buddhists is said to support the mind. It's, it's a different
subject than we're on now, but I, but, it's to distinguish from an ordinary basis to
say a unique or special basis. Dharmakirti accepts that the body is an ordinary
basis for the mind. It contributes to supporting the mind. It does in a way base
the mind, but it's not a unique basis. It's not such that it turns into the mind, or
something like that. [student: But are you referring to unique cause or material
cause in question one?] I don't know. What was the question? [student: When
you talked about it.] What was the question? [student: Consider the, it's the first
proof, it's the seventh proof.] Which was? [student: Consider the, the elements,
the internal elements in the form of the sense powers. They're not the unique
cause] Does it say unique cause or unique basis? [student: causes] Cause or
basis? Okay, well that just the wording that, that they used in the text, but that,
but I would say in that case, in that proof, it means {nyerlengyigyu}. It does
mean the material cause. [student: And then in the text we have the words, the
term project, projecting cause. What is a projecting cause?] We're going to talk
about that tonight. Okay. So eight and nine are the trigger. So you want to
know the nature of eight and nine. That's what I'm saying, and it's very
important for a normal person. It's, it's very important. If somehow you could
affect number eight and nine as you die then you'd be saved a lot of future lives,
lousy lives, okay. [student: But it's not just, you talk about the unripened karma
from this life that you've accumulated ripening at that moment of death based
on your emotions, your desire, craving, whatever, but there's also karma from
previous lives that affects rebirth.] That too, that too. You also have that. It's in
your pocket. It's in your karmic pocket. Now whether or not it will blow up
depends on these two emotions. I don't call them even emotions, but we call
them these two mental states. [student: So those are the trigger for all past
karma?] Yeah, all past karma. Whatever karma is gonna create your next life.
Mainly karma in this life, but it could be also karma from last life. All right. So
we gotta talk about the nature of those two. [student: Then how would you go
from life to life carrying anything that was previous to the, to the present life?]
We're gonna discuss that in the next course, at the end of the next course, okay.
[student: At least you're not saying four years from now.] We're gonna, in the
early part of the next course, we're gonna study the principles of karma
according to Abhidharma at the, and the last two classes, say, of the next course
we'll discuss the Mind-Only school's explanation of how karma is transmitted,
and it's a great explanation and it's accepted by the highest schools. They, they
say "that's fine." In fact they accept the Abhidharma's presentation from all sides,
basically, so they, it's a nice way to present it. Okay, so we gotta talk a little bit
about {gepa} and {gupa}, number eight and number nine, okay. I'll give you the
definition of number eight. You don't have to have it word for word, but you
just understand it. It says {unclear} which means "based on the seventh link,"
okay, based on link number seven, which is what? You have a guy with an
arrow in his eye [laughs]. What do you think that represents? [students: Pain.
Ignorance.] Feeling, sensation, the ability to feel. Based on the ability to feel,
okay {ten ne} [student: phyical sensation?] It could be physical or mental pain or
pleasure. "Based on the ability to feel, which is link number seven, it is the desire
not to be separated from, it is the desire not to be separated from its object."
What does that mean? All these links here, all these links here which occur after
you're born represent the development of the body and the senses, and they
represent milestones in the life of a, of a young person. He, he, he gets his first,
his sense organs develop for the first time. He has his first contact with outside
objects. He gets his first consciousnesses growing from those contacts. Those
consciousnesses start to have emotions and feeling. He, he has certain kinds of
contact, like with food and then sex, and then he, he starts to feel good, and that's
{tsorwa}. He starts to have good and bad feelings. His, his, his psyche starts to
develop to a point where he can feel good things and feel bad things, and then
he, he starts to get naturally what? [student: attached.] The desire to, not to lose
the nice feelings, and that's what basically human endeavors are, most of all
human endeavors in the world are based on trying not to get separated from
what you want, you know. It's always stated negatively, by the way. I don't
know why, but it's important apparently, and, and you know this is one of those
things where a good lama will say "I don't know why the text always says it
negatively, we'll go look for the reason, but please be sure to pass it on this way
to your students, you know." It's the desire not to be separated, okay, from its
object, all right, and that's only possible because, because you have the capacity
to feel good [student: Well, because it's more stimulated by the threat of its
being withdrawn than it is by the satisfaction of it... ] Well, we're going to talk
about it, but mostly, people spend their lives trying not to lose whatever nice
things they have. That's the function of giving up... [student: Is all of this
supposed to be taking place over a period of time? I mean, this is simultaneous
at the moment of birth.] There's three or four, there's three or four explanations
on that. Some take a moment, some take a minute, and some explanations take
three, four, five lives, so there's, there's a whole school on that. You know, I'm
not going to go into that, you know. It's a whole study of its own. We spend
months on it in the monastery. Okay. Three kinds of craving. So now you
know the definition of craving, right? We're talking about the definition of the
link of craving. There are three types.

[cut]

[repeat] {si se} [repeat] Okay. Three kinds of the eighth link, all right. Three
kinds of craving. This is the trigger that triggers your karma. If you could get
rid of this trigger, you wouldn't have to be reborn. That's the idea of an arhat.
{duse, duse, du} means "desire" and {se} means "craving" {se} is the general word
for "craving." {duse} means "desire craving." What does that mean? It's defined
as {unclear} which means "the craving which desires not to lose an attractive
object" okay? The craving which desires not to lose an attractive object. That's
{duse}. On your homework, don't just put "desire craving." Some of the
Tibetan... [student: Say it again.] [laughs] Ah [unclear], you're going to make
your mother take another life [laughter]. "The desire not to lose an attractive
object." Okay? {jik, jik} means "fear," like {jikche} is Yamantaka [unclear] {se}
means "desire." So {jik se} means "desire... " What do you think? What do you
guess? [students: fear of desire? Fear of losing... The wish to avoid the
unpleasant?] Yeah. It's the craving which wishes to avoid an unpleasant object.
[student: Does {se} means "craving" or "desire"?] {se}, I like to use the word {se},
craving for {serpa} because {dupa} is more "desire." {sepa} is supposed to make
you, {sepa} is supposed to give the feeling of sort of an intense desire. That's the
difference between {dupa} and {sepa} in Tibetan. [student: Could you repeat that
again.] {jikse} is the desire to be, is the desire to, to lose an unattractive object,
you know, like when you walk down the corridor at work and this guy you
don't like is walking down towards you [laughs] and you kind of turn down a
hallway if you can, you know? That's {jikse}, all right? {duse} is, you know,
grabbing for that position. That's {duse}, all right? We have both. [student: So
{duse} is "desire craving"?] You can call it "desire craving," but what it means is
"the desire not to be separated from an attractive object." It's simply given that
name, you know, "desire craving." There're all desire, right? [student: Yeah but
number one is also "desire craving"] It is, it is. They, those are just, they're not
descriptive names. They are just names, okay. {sise, sise} the word literally
means "craving for existence." {se} means "craving." {si}, same spelling except for
a different vowel. {sise} means "existence, craving for existence." What is this
wheel of life called in Tibetan? {sipe korlo} That's the {si} in {sese. sipa korlo}
means "wheel of life, wheel of existence." So {sise} means "craving for existence."
How is it defined? {unclear} which means "a craving which craves for yourself,
okay, because at the moment of death you fear that you are ending." It's a
craving for "me" because at the moment of death I have this great intense fear
that I am ending. [student: You fear you're ending?] You think you are, the
word in Tibetan is {che.         Che} means "discontinued," you know [laughs],
"chopped off." [student: So is, for you ego, I mean is it... ] Now, now, that's a
good question. That's a very nice question, okay. Is it related to grasping to self-
existence. It's, it's obviously very very close, right? And, and it's what makes
people screem when the airplane's falling down, they have this tape of the
airplane that flipped over, and the people are talking, you know, and then, then
there're struggling to control the airport, airplane, and then for the last thirty
seconds it's obvious that nothing's going to happen and they're headed straight
down, and they're just screaming, you know. They're just screaming. It's {sise} is
expressing itself, you know. They, they think, they truly believe at that moment
that they are going to end, and they, they have this {sepa}. They have this
craving. Craving asserts itself very strongly in the last moments. You, you truly
believe you're going to end and you don't want it to happen, and you will do
anything, if someone holds you over a rooftop and tries to push you, you will,
you will fight back. {sise} will fight back. {sise} is afraid that it's going to, that I'm
going to end now, and that's {sise}. All three are active, or constitute the eighth
link. It means that the, the craving that triggers your rebirth involves all three of
these, but mainly which one? [student: The last one.] The last one, obviously,
okay. Obviously the last one. [student: The last one what?] Obviously it the
{sise}, the desire for existence, the craving for existence, it's that fear that you are
ending which helps trigger your, the karma that you've had in your life and then
blows it up, makes it blow up. [student: So what's the difference between that
and grasping... ] Gras, oh, now we're going to talk about, that's a, that's a
natural, that's the next thing I was going to talk about [laughs]. What's the
difference between that craving, and number nine which is grasping? Okay.
Number nine is defined as, I'll define it for you. {unclear} which simply means
"the craving of link number eight, increased to a very high degree." I don't know
how to say it in English. Craving of number, the craving of link eight, you
know, increased to a very very high state. Apparently, there's two degrees of, of
this trigger. There's two degrees of the emotion or the mental function which at
the moment of death triggers your karma, and one of them is, is like the very
last moments, and when your, when your desire to live, the desire not to end
gets very powerful, and that's {gupa}, that's number nine. So number nine is the
actual trigger. {gepa} is all the stages that lead up to it. Now what's the
relationship between those two mental functions, right, those two emotions as
you die, and, and craving for self, the ignorance which sees self-existence, okay.
We, we gotta talk about that. The key is in there somewhere, okay. It's, it's, I
don't see how just wanting not to die would force you to go into another mind
stream. You know what I mean? I, I still don't see why, and, and the answer is
deep in the scriptures and it has to do with grabbing to self-existence at that
point, and we'll talk about that after the break. So have some... Am I on time
today or what? [student: ...just very fast.] Well, you know, I'm on vacation
[laughs].

[break]

[cut] ... if. {jik tsok ta, jik tsok ta} is a very very strange word, "view of the
perishable assemblage, view of the perishable assemblage." There is no nice
translation. It's easier to describe it than to try to explain the words. It's "to
grasp you or the things that belong to you as self-existent." It's the habit of
grasping to yourself and the parts of you as self-existent. [Tom Kylie: So it's to
imply that it's the wrong view of... ] Yeah. It is a wrong view. There are five
wrong view. It's one of them. When they say ignorance causes this wheel, spins
this wheel, [student: That's what they mean], and when you see the two blind
men with sticks, you know, ignorance, it is this very mental function. It is this
one mental function which is the ignorance which spins the wheel. It's not just
not knowing something, or not being aware of something. It's not that kind of
ignorance. It's the active grasping to yourself as self-existent. [student: ...to
wrong view?] Excuse me? [student: Would that be wrong view?] It's one of the
five wrong views. We'll study it one day. There are six major, I mean I'm not,
this is not part of the class, I mean there are six major mental illnesses [laughs]
{ngomo's}, kleshas, and one of them is ignorance, or view, wrong view, and that
has five forms. There's a total of ten really. That's the answer to your question.
We'll do it some day, okay. {Jik tsok ta}is the, is the villian, okay. {jik tsok ta},
that ignorance, that view, is, is the villain, all right, and we'll talk more about it in
a second. [student: When you first defined view of the perishable assemblage,
you said the habit of grasping at self and others...] I shouldn't have said "what
belongs to you." I should have said "you and your parts." How's that? [student:
Oh, okay.] You, you and yours, meaning your arms, your leg, your mind, okay,
not meaning your house, your kids, your family, okay, meaning... [student: The
skandas? Could you say the skandas?] You could say that. You and your parts.
How's that? {drel, drel} means to, "not to have something, to lose something,"
okay. It's actually the word I've been using all night, when it said, you know,
"lose something you like, don't lose something you don't," you know. {chir}
means "because." {chir} means "because." {lam} you know. What's {lam}?
[students: Path.] Path. Like {lam rim}, steps of the path. {tang por} means "at
the beginning," and the {lam} here by the way, and you can make a note, is the
path of seeing. Which, what number is that of the five paths? [student: Third]
Number three. Why is it called "path of seeing." [students: Because it's where
you see emptiness directly.] Directly. It's the first moment. It's, it's the process
of seeing emptiness directly for the first time in trillions and trillions, actually
endless lives, beginningless lives. It's losing your virginity. It happens once in
the whole length of your trillions of life times. It happens once, and you, you see
emptiness directly for the first time. [student: You mean after you, you've seen
emptiness once you cannot see it again?] You'll, you'll see it many times again,
but I'm talking about that first time, and you change totally after that. You're a
totally different kind of being after that. You're an arya, and arya has a big
meaning. There's only two kinds of beings in the universe. You're either an arya
or you're not. You've either had this experience or you haven't had this
experience, and once you have had this experience you're on your way out.
You're a, that's why you're called a "stream enterer." You see your future lives.
You see how many lives it's going to be. You meet Buddhas. You see the truth
of suffering directly.     All these things happen within these couple hours.
[student: Is it possible that this happened to one of us in previous lives?] You
would know. [student: How would you know?] You would know because,
because the lives that you will live after the moment that you see it are
exceptional, you know. You, you live, you're always born in a comfortable
family, you, you never have much go wrong in your life, you're always
successful, I mean basically, and it's, it's, it's the, even the last few samsaric lives
are, are very comfortable. [student: Are you involved in Dharma necessarily?]
You might not be as a child, but you will be attracted to it as a child, but you will
be attracted to it and get into it at an early age. [student: So anybody that is out
of Dharma... ] You don't know [unclear] [student: What about some lamas who
have like difficult lives? What about all the lamas who have been kicked about of
Tibet?] They're either pretending, or ... [student: This is a little off, but I just don't
get, I mean since we start with the omniscient being and the beginninglessness, I
don't get, what I don't get is if, you know, if everybody can become a Buddha,
and these are all separate mind streams, so is there some, it almost seems like
there's some plan that we're all supposed to become Buddhas at some point in
time.] We will study that, you know, some day, but it is the {sangye kyi rik}. It
is the {rangshin nye rik} It's the Buddha nature of a being. We have to study
that subject. It's a long subject, and it's a beautiful subject. It's a deep subject, and
it takes a long time to learn. [student: But then what happens if everybody
becomes, then what happens to samsara? I mean does the world... ]. Buddha,
yeah, Buddha, Rinpoche used to joke about it. He'd say "Well what, is everybody
going to die? I don't know." It will come. [student: So then certain worlds will
disappear.] Oh, yes. [student: So then other worlds will, I mean then their will
be other kinds of worlds?] Yeah. There will be no more hells. There will be no
more hells. [student: Yeah, but Michael, if that's the point then what about all the
great lamas, supposedly the great lamas that came out of Tibet because they
were pushed out of Tibet. I mean, that's not really a happy thing to happen to
them. Supposedly they are Buddhas.] No, but you have no idea if they are
putting it on. Mao Tze Tung was a bodhissatva. You don't know. Was it a plan,
you know, the Tibetan lamas and Mao Tze Tung, I don't know. You don't know.
That was the first thing Buddha said at the beginning of this class. You really
don't know. You don't know for sure. [student: What do you mean you don't
know? You don't know what?] I don't know. I can't tell you that Mao Tze Tung
wasn't a bodhissatva in, in collusion with all the Tibetan lamas, and they made up
this whole thing to get them out. I don't know. It's possible. Okay. {lamdo}
What's a bodhissatva? I mean a bodhissatva can, can pretend to live a whole life
of fifty years in order to talk to you for ten minutes. He would do that. He
would do that. He would get close to you for your whole life just to have a
conversation with you at age thirty or forty to affect your mind. It's worth it for
him. It's possible. It's not at all improbable. {lamdo borni}, "at the beginning" {si
me, si} you know because this was {sipay korlo}. What does {si} mean? [student:
Existence?] Life. You know, another life. In this case it means "rebirth," life in
the sense of rebirth. {me} means what? [students: No. Not] There will, there is
not. {gyu} means "there wouldn't, where, there would be no, there would be no
rebirth," okay. [student: What is {nyi}] {nyi} is a filler [laughter]. He needs to
make his beads. Down here you're going to see him cram two beads into one
because he has to make his beads the other way. So what does it mean? It
means, it means "if you got rid of this view, this wrong view..." I should say, I
want to rephrase that. "If getting rid of any kind of this wrong view, if getting
rid of any kind of this wrong view," okay, we're going to talk about it. I'll repeat
it. "If getting rid of any type of this wrong view could stop your rebirths." That's
what this first line means, okay. If an, "if getting rid of any kind of this wrong
view could stop your rebirths then at the beginning of the path of seeing, the
third path, all right, you would reach a state where you didn't have to take birth
any more." [student: Okay. If getting rid of this kind of wrong view] If getting
rid of any kind of this wrong view... [student: ...then, at the beginning of what?]
Got you out of rebirth, you know, stopped all your rebirths, then the minute
you see emptiness directly you, what? You would, you'd never have to take a
rebirth, but that's not true. [student: Well do you also, are you saying that you
permanently lose the view at the, at the... ] We're gonna talk about it, we're
gonna talk about it, and I wanna... You don't have to write this down. There's
three, there's three levels I'm talking about. I saw people's ears prick up in the
last class when Dharmakirti said "the reason you're re, that you have to take a
rebirth, is at the moment of death you have desire." So I got, I got this feeling
that people were thinking "oh, you know, I could collect all the karma I want, get
to the last moment of my life, clean up my act in that last ten minutes, my other
karma, all that karma wouldn't be activated, and I
would be, reach nirvana, you know. I mean it sounds like that, right? And that's
not what it means to have desire at the last moment of your life. That's is what
I'm trying to say. Having desire at the last moment of your life means grasping
to a self-existent you, and wanting that self-existent you to be happy, and
wanting that self-existent you not to get lost, and that's what triggers your
karma. It's not just that you want something, and, and this relates to a very bad
view, I think, that's prevalent among people that don't study Buddhism very
well, which is they think that Buddhas somehow reach a point where they don't
care about anything, they don't want anything. Well then, don't you want
nirvana, don't you want to be a Buddha, don't you want to help other living
beings? I mean, is, is, is being a Buddhist, is the perfection of your practice to
somehow reach some state where you don't care about anything, you don't
want anything, you know, it just doesn't ever make sense to me, and it's a
prevalent viewpoint among Buddhist schools. You, you hear it in Buddhist
teachings sometimes, or you get that feeling that, oh, I'm not a good Buddhist
because I actually want to get out of samsara. You know, when I reach this high
state, I won't even want to get out of samsara. It's obviously not right. You
want to get out of samsara. You want to get out of pain, okay. What I mean is
that {sepa}that we talked about, link number eight, craving, is it wrong for you
to want to get out of samsara? Isn't that a form of craving? [student: unclear...
Isn't it really a qualitatively different kind of emotion?] Well that's what I ask
you right now. Is wanting to get out of samsara, which is an undesirable object,
craving, and could that trigger a rebirth? Could it act as, as a cause of samsara
rather than a way to get out of samsara? Is renunciation craving? [student: I
think it could be. I think it depends upon the motivation and how it's done.]
Well, think, ab, I mean just think about it. I mean, I want to get to a place of
permanent pleasure. I want that. That's why I became a monk. That's why I'm a
Buddhist. I, I enjoy pleasure, I like it. I want to get to a place like that [laughter].
I do. Frankly, I do. I want to reach a point where I'm happy all the time, and I
want to avoid a place where I have to get old and die and see bad things happen,
things I don't like, and, and that's the reason I'm here. Is that bad? Is that
wrong? [students: Isn't that self-existent? Doesn't that have a different karmic
effect than other cravings? It's a craving... what you should be saying, or what
you mean, I guess, by saying craving to get out of samsara, that's one and the
same thing as saying, wishing to see myself as I truly am, which is at that point,
what self is there, who's craving what, what's craving who?] No, I don't think
like that. [student: Well that's what it means. Samsara means seeing yourself the
wrong way.] The Budda, by the way, this is on your homework, the Buddha
perceives himself, the Buddha, this is the most, this is the first way of perceiving
yourself. It's called unanalyzed, unchecked, un, just the Buddha, when he looks
at the Buddha, he says "me," and there's nothing wrong with that. It's okay.
Even the Buddha things of himself as "me," and, and the example given in the
scripture is, the Buddha thinks his begging bowl is his. The Buddha thinks his
robes are his, and if someone came up and stole them, the Buddha does think
"they're stealing my begging bowl." He has an awareness of that as being his,
and of himself as being "me," and there's nothing wrong with that. [students:
unclear] That's called, that's called the {yigay dak, yigay dak}, Tom Kylie's
unexamined perception of Tom Kylie is acceptable. There is a Tom Kylie. It's a
{tsema}. It's a pramana. You see a Tom Kylie. To deny a Tom Kylie would be
rediculous. [Tom Kylie: Right, but the way that Tom, the way I believe that Tom
Kylie exists, and the way the Buddha believes the Buddha exists are two different
things, and that difference is samsara.] But on a, what I'm saying is on a basic, on
an unexamined level, the way you just, you know, I'm Michael Roach. That's all.
That's not wrong. There's nothing bad about it. There's nothing {jik tsok ta}
about it. It's okay. It's unexamined, conventional perception of myself. Don't
mix that up with, now we'll get to the bad one [laughs]. The bad one is to, to
want Michael Roach to be happy and misperceive who he is. And who is he?
He's a blank, and I'm perceiving him as Michael Roach in a certain form because
I'm force to by what? My karma, my past deeds. I'm blank. I could have been
Yamantaka. I could have been Gautama Buddha. You know, I could have been
Vajra Yogini. I, I'm blank. I could be seeing myself that way. I didn't get the
right causes in line. I, I messed up. That's why I have to see myself as getting old
and, and getting, and dy, and going to die. That, I, I didn't prepare the right
causes and now this blank thing I must see as, as Michael Roach, as a samsaric
being. [Tom Kylie: And we're craving to continue to see that wrong thing.] I'm,
I'm trying to make myself happy simply by wanting to be happy, and I'm trying
to make myself happy by doing deeds which are not the ones to make myself
happy, and that's ignorance, and that's a misperception of my nature. Look, I
want Michael Roach to be happy. It has nothing to do with, you know,
outsmarting someone else at my job, or, you know, being able to corner the
market on donuts, you know. That's not how I'm going to get happy. I have to
do good deeds. I have to forget all the temporary causes that are involved, and I
have to go for the real causes that are going to make me happy. [student: So if
you see yourself as a mind stream, you're saying that that is then legitimate? I
mean...] Oh yeah, I mean, I am a mind stream. What do you want? [student:
No, because I've always been very confused about this.] {che tsam} They say, in
Tibetan, they say {che tsam}, that's why I talking about it, you know, I mean,
that's why we're talking about it, because otherwise this whole stuff is very
confusing. [student: Yeah, I never could understand, because also they say
you're empty but they say there's something that continues on.               What's
continuing on if you're empty?] It's this perception. Yeah, I am blank. I prefer, I
prefer "blank." I really prefer "blank." Blank, blank gives you the right idea. The
word blank is great. You're blank. [student: But "mind stream" has a sense of
continuation but "blank" doesn't.] There's moments of consciousness that are
blank. Even the mind streamness of it is a per, is a appellation. [student: But if
you say that each one of these mind streams are separate...]             They are.
[student: ... then there is something very continuous about this mind stream]
[unclear] ... of course. It's your karma continuing, but we're not going to talk
about it today. What I'm saying is that, what triggers karma? What makes that
desire bad desire is the misperception of yourself linked with the wrong actions
that that inspires. It, all your normal activities aimed at getting some kind of
contentment or happiness in this life are mis-directed. If you knew what you
were doing, you, you would just go out and do the most charitable things you
could do, because that's the only cause for you to see your blank self as, as, as
happy. It's not figuring out how to do the best business deal, or figuring out
how to find the person you like, you know, it's, it's, that's just wrong, and, and,
and if you do those deeds you are proving that you don't understand your
nature and you have ignorance, and that will cause you trouble. [student: So
what is it that becomes happy, and what is it that becomes a Buddha.] You have
a perception of a blank thing as being happy, and that perception is forced on
you by your karma. [student: What is this blank thing?] Your parts, your mind
and your body. [student: Your mind and your body? So you can go beyond the
formless realm and... ] No, you see your mind and your body as happy, and
when you focus on your mind, you see the parts of your mind as your mind.
When you focus on one of the parts of your mind, you see that last moment and
the next moment as the mind, and it's endless, and it's okay, and it works, and
that's how you'll be a Buddha [laughs]. That's Nagarjuna's viewpoint,
Tsongkapa's viewpoint, pure middle way, and everything else is just false. That's
how you will become a Buddha. [student: When you focus on parts of your
mind you see the last moment and the next moment and it continues... ] I'm
saying that you always go, you're always looking at the parts, and, and imputing
the mind, the whole on it. You see the parts of yourself and call it "Lee." I mean,
you focus on your body, you see your arms and legs and you call them "Lee's
body," and then when you focus on Lee's arms you see Lee's hand, Lee's wrist,
and Lee's elbow, and when you focus on Lee's elbow, you see the upper part of
your elbow and the lower part of your elbow, and you call that elbow, and it's,
it, you, you can go back endlessly. [student: Like the pencil, right.] [student: But
there's no good or bad attached to that?] Sure. If I see a mortal elbow, you
know, a
breakable elbow, a arm that has pain, that's because I, I did the deeds to force
myself to see that. [student: No but when you're talking about looking at your
body and sort of labeling it body... ] No, I didn't, I'm just describing what you do
as a result of your karma. [student: And the preferable focus is... ] And you'll
reach a point in your career, Dharma career, where out of cold knowledge, you
do the right things, and then you'll be forced to see yourself as a Buddha
[unclear]. [student: Michael, what about... ]

[tape side two]

[unclear] [student: You wouldn't call what he's doing grasping toward a self
simply because he labels it that way]. Not at all. That first one, and I've
described four kinds of grasping at yourself, or four ways of seeing yourself, and
you better know, they could be on your homework. The first one, the first one
is what we call conventional perception of me. I am Michael Roach. Come on.
{tseme drupay chir}, because I saw it with a tsema. Is that wrong? Is that
somehow mistaken? Is that somehow not a {tsema}? No, not at all. The second
level of seeing yourself, I'm Michael Roach, I see my self-existent, I see myself as
self-existent, and I believe myself to be self-existent. How does that manifest
itself? I think I can be happy by manipulating causes that have nothing to do
with my happiness. [student: I believe I can be happy by manipulating others... ]
Manipulating causes has nothing to do with my happiness, and that's how we
spend our lives. Now there is, now there's a person who has seen emptiness
directly. How is he different from the second person I've described? [student:
He sees himself as self-existent, but doesn't believe he is.] Right. By the way I'm
talking about, very important, I'm talking about after he comes down after that
first experience, okay. While he's in that experience, forget it. It's a very different
thing, but when he comes down, he sees himself as self-existent, but he knows
he's wrong. He doesn't even believe himself any more. He sees but he does not
believe. [student: He's seen emptiness?] Yeah, directly. [student: Michael, this is
number three?] That was number three. Number two is like people who
haven't seen emptiness directly yet. They see it and they believe it. [student:
unclear] That's what I do when I, when I'm at number two. A arya no longer
collects karma. [Tom Kylie: Just have to have seen emptiness the first time?]
Yeah. He no, he no longer collects the causes for suffering. It's very interesting,
it's very interesting. [Tom Kylie: Even if he gets angry.] It's very interesting.
We'll debate it sometime. It's a huge debate in the monastery. There's a, there's
a reputable text that says he doesn't collect [unclear] kinds of karma any more.
Okay, number four. Big debate. I don't say it's an easy thing. We have to debate
it. [student: He collects negative karma but doesn't collect causes] We'll talk
about it, we'll talk about it. Number four. What do you guess is number four.
[student: Buddha]. Buddha or an arhat. No longer sees himself and no longer
believes himself. He, he never did believe, right, since he was an arya, but now
he's purified himself to such a point that he doesn't even see things as self-
existent. [student: This is habituation] That's what the path of habituation is for,
to go from three to four. [student: No longer sees himself as self-existent] And
doesn't believe it anymore, and that's why there's five paths and not only four. It
takes number four to get to number five. Which of those can trigger your
karma at the moment of death? [student: two]. Which of those four people
have to take rebirth? [students: two, and three also] Two and three. That's
where, by the way, there in number three is where you get those once returners,
non-returners, stream enterers. You gotta study that some day. Guy number
two is a person who has not reached the path of seeing yet. He sees things as
self-existent and he believes them as self-existent, and he's going, if he dies in that
state, he, he will trigger his karma, his, his karma will get triggered because he
will look at himself and wish himself to be happy, or wish himself not to end,
and it'll be an ignorant perception of himself. That's what I'm saying. It's not just
enough to desire. Therefore, it's not enough at the last moment of your life just
to not have desire for five minutes as you die, and you're okay. It doesn't work
that way. [student: Well it couldn't. I mean if you had desire your whole life,
you couldn't just at the last moment say... ] Let's say the odds are very low.
That's why this {powa} stuff, you have to study {powa}. There is a Gelugpa
{powa}, it's very secret, it's very fine, and, and it, it's very very delicate, and that's
that whole thing, but the likelihood of living a very lousy life, and then in the last
five minutes, in the most terrifying moments of your existence, thinking clearly
and doing the right thing is almost, it's beyond impossible. [Tom Kylie: There's
an irony working here as well because that second person's gonna be very
terrified at the prospect of there being an end to their mind stream, which can't
be. They're terrified of something that couldn't exist.] They didn't study enough
of Dharmakirti, and they do believe they're gonna have a, they're gonna end.
They go from, you not only have to study Dharmakirti's proofs, you have to
meditate on them so much that it becomes part of your being, and at the
moment of death it's so strong in you that it doesn't get pushed aside by your
fear at that moment. That, that's going to take a lot of... [student: They're afraid
of something that couldn't happen if they did everything to try to make it
happen.] Right, right. [student: Michael, did you translate the bottom two lines?]
So it's number two and three which are going to trigger. That's why aryas still
have to take rebirth until they become arhats. All right, so what he's saying is, I
ask you a question: If you got rid of ignorance in the form of grasping to a self-
existent me, would your karma be triggered? [student: Say that again.] If you
got rid of ignorance as {jik tsok ta}, meaning perceiving a self-existent you,
would you, if you got rid of that kind of ignorance would you have to take
rebirth? [student: If you, say it again.] If you got rid of the kind of ignorance
which sees me as self-existent, or believes me as self-existent, would you have to
take rebirth? No. So why does he say just because you don't have that view
doesn't mean you don't have to take rebirth? He's talking about the first type.
It's called "intellectual grasping," and that's the one where you don't believe it but
you do still see it. What he's saying is even if you reach that point where you no
longer believe in a self who is self existent, it's not enough to stop your rebirths.
[Tom Kylie: That's number three.] Right. Even if you reach number three, it's
not good enough, because if it were enough, if it were enough, then you would
get out of rebirth at the first moment of the path of seeing. [Tom Kylie: unclear,
become an arya, apply themselves, and go all the way through.] Exactly, exactly.
They are called, there's even a name for them. [Tom Kylie: But those are also the
people who achieved nirvana in this life, and then they have the remainder,
right?] Yeah, you, there is the kind of being who does it in one life. They go
from arya to arhat in one life, in the same life. [Michael: Intellectual grasping
and... ] Believing, I, I'm saying, you could say intellectual, you can say believing
in a self, okay. What he's saying is believing in the self-existence of yourself,
getting rid of that believing is not enough to get rid of the triggers, the two
triggers that trigger your karma when you die. You must get rid of the
{hlenkye. Hlenkye} means, {hlen chi kye} means "that innate grasping to a self,"
which all beings have. In fact, it is the very seeing of a thing as self-existent, it's
the predilection, it's the habit of seeing things as self-existent, which even an arya
has after he comes down, and you have to get rid of that, much more difficult.
[student: Michael, let's say that you [unclear] you no longer see yourself as self-
existent] You no longer believe yourself... [... you no longer believe yourself as a
self, but you know that you've accrued bad karma, so couldn't you be, even
though you know that your self doesn't exist, couldn't you have fear that the
negative karma might trigger a rebirth even though you don't believe in your
own existence.] Right. That's exactly what happens, unless in that same life he
becomes an arhat, because if he doesn't, he does get these two, and it is
triggered, and he does have to be born again, and that's why there are all those
classifications called stream enterer, once returner, and non-returner. Those are
all people who have to be born again. [student: So in other words, if you don't
see yourself, and you know that yourself is not self existent, even though you
have bad karma, you won't feel fear.] Yeah, that's a good point. Arhat's pockets
are full of bad karma, but they just don't have the triggers, so they never take
rebirth. They have collected piles of bad karma, but they don't have the triggers.
It's not that they have cleaned out all their bad karma. Karma is there. It's never
triggered. It's never activated. [Tom Kylie: Therefore, it'll never be, it'll never
grow.] It will never produce a result. [Tom Kylie: Now, I think the same goes
for Buddhas as well, but you disagreed with me in the last class about that.] I'll
look it up. [Tom Kylie: I think Rinpoche taught that even Buddhas have the
same phenomena, because I asked him is it a matter of cleaning out all of your
bad karma before you can reach
Buddhahood, and he says "no, even Buddhas have it.] It's sort of the difference
between Jain and Buddhists. What do Jains believe, I mean in India? If you talk
to [unclear], he'll say "you can never become a Buddha. It's impossible. You can't
prevent killing germs, you can't help stepping on bugs, you know. We Jains
believe that in trillions of years only one person ever gets to nirvana, and we just
believe it will go on almost endlessly. We don't believe you can ever stop. When
you eat a piece of bread, how many bugs did you kill just to get that piece of
bread. We don't believe that." [student: unclear] Arya. What do you have to do
between arya and arhat to stop seeing things as self-existent. [student: What is
the difference between [unclear] Arya has seen, arya has seen emptiness
directly. He's, he's lost that virginity, that lousy virginity. He has seen emptiness
directly. What is an Arhat? He no longer has any bad emotions, period.
Permanent cessation of his bad emotions. [Tom Kylie: But even the arya, having
had bad emotions, is not going to generate bad karma.] Long story. If the arhat
has bodhichitta on the day he becomes an arhat, what happens? [student: He
becomes a bodhissatva.] He becomes a Buddha. [students: unclear] If you
become an arhat with bodhichitta in your mental stream, you're a Buddha. If
you're, if you get rid of all your bad thoughts but don't have bodhichitta, what
happens? You become a hinayana arhat. That's a hinayana, that's what they call
self-made Buddhas, solitary realizers, sravakas and pratieka Buddhas. Those are
the two. They're not real Buddhas. They're just arhats. [student: But an arhat has
to have bodhichitta the same day he becomes an arhat, unclear]. No no no. If
you become an arhat under the influence of bodhichitta, with bodhichitta in your
heart, you become, at that moment you become a Buddha. If you don't have
bodhichitta, and just clean out all your bad thoughts permanently, you become a
lower arhat. Now what happens to lower arhats? They gotta go up again to the
bodhissatva level and go all the way down through the bodhissatva, and then
finally get to Buddhahood, so they still have a lot of work to go. [Tom Kylie: But
they're, also Michael, this is Buddhahood and arhatship are the last birth or
reincarnation?] That's what arhat means. A arhat does not have eight or nine.
He never triggers karma. [Tom Kylie: Right, so when you become either a
Buddha or an arhat, okay, and an arhat just being, you know, we can say a
hinayana Buddha... ] Well, you can say a hinayana arhat.               You have to
distinguish. A mahayana arhat and a Buddha is the same thing. [Tom Kylie:
Right, so it makes, you know. So a Buddha or a hinayana arhat then, that's their
last incarnation, I mean that's the same form that they have all the time?] That's
their last samsaric life. [Tom Kylie: It's their last samsaric life, okay.] Life of
suffering. [Tom Kylie: Okay. So then they incarnate as something then that is
not going to reincarnate any more in non-samsaric fashion? So that's a
permanent, whatever they, the last samsaric life, the very next life after that,
that's a permanent form for them for the rest of eternity?] With hinayana arhat
you gotta talk about it, and the different schools have different beliefs, and I'm
not going to get into it. Basically, all Buddhists believe... [Tom Kylie: Or is it
something where they don't, they'll end that existence but they'll have another
enlightened existence some place else or... ] Something like that. It depends on
which school [unclear] Okay, you ready, and then we'll stop, but, but I just
wanted to get you the key. That's what you always wanted to know, and what
always was confusing, right, how does that last moments work? What, what's
the point of saying "if you don't have desire"? It doesn't refer to desire, right? It
refers to desire that a self-existent me be happy, that a self-existent me not stop.
It depends on the perception of me as self-existent. [student: But would you say
that you want to be happy, unclear]. Because it makes [student: you] I'll get
there. I'll get there. I understand, but, but it makes sense, doesn't it, you know?
It's not wrong to want to be happy, and it's, otherwise why would you ever
strive for Buddhahood? Why would you strive to become Vajrayogini if it's
wrong to be happy, or if it's wrong to want to be happy? You know, that's...
Now, when I say "Michael Roach wants to be happy," am I perceiving a Michael
Roach who will undertake actions that have nothing to do with my happiness to
be happy [student: No]. If I do, it's, it's {sepa}, it's craving. If I don't think of
myself in that way it's not craving, and it will just help me, and be great. That's
the key. Why? That's the one thing that will keep me here. [student: But what
you were saying, that somebody who has had seen emptiness, right?] Yeah,
yeah. [student: ... wouldn't they feel the way you do?] Sure. [student: But
you're saying they do take rebirth.] Yeah, because they still see themselves as
self-existent. [student: And you don't?] You can't ask me that question. I'm just
a normal guy. {Hlen chik kyepa} means, {hlen chik kyepa} means "that innate
grasping to a self," seeing yourself as self-existent. Bugs have that. Amebas have
that. Dogs have that. {Hlen chik kyepa makpong chir}, {makpong} means "they
have not gotten rid of it." {Chir} means "because." So what he's saying here is
that if, if getting rid of all forms of seeing yourself as self-existent, and believing
yourself as self-existent was all it took to finish your rebirths, well then the
moment you saw emptiness directly what? You'd never have to be born again,
but he says it's not true because they have not yet given up the innate form of
grasping to themselves which means to see themselves as self-existent, and then
the last line is a nice line to end on. {Pong nyiyong} But if you were to {pong},
what's {pong}? [student: seeing yourself as self-existent.] If you were to give it
up, what, seeing yourself as self-existent, [student: then you wouldn't have
any...] {Sipa}, yeah, good. {Sipa} means "rebirth." {Kali yu} means "where on
earth could it happen," how on earth could you ever have to take a rebirth.
[student: {na ong}, I'm sorry, I lost the {na ong} part.] {Pong na ong} means "but
if you did get rid of it," this habit of seeing yourself as self-existent. {Pong} means
"get rid." {Na ong} means "but if you were." [student: Thank you.]. {Sipa } means
"rebirth" {Kali yu} means "come on, how could it ever happen." The basic is this.
Dharmakirti said at the beginning of the class "the reason a person has to take
rebirth, the reason the mind has to flop over into the same stuff again, is, is that
that mind has desire." I didn't like that. It didn't seem reasonable to me. What's
desire got to do with the mind continuing into the other mind? Ah, but if it's, if
it's that that desire means desiring for a self-existent me not to end, then that
perception of a self-existent me karmically causes me to have another perception
of a mind, and that's a little tricky. What I'm saying is that the desire that
Dharmakirti's talking about is the trigger. Trigger desire. Trigger desire
depends upon misperceiving yourself. He wants me to be happy, and has no
knowledge of what I'm supposed to do to get that. It, it, it's going to go to work
tomorrow and work hard to be happy, to work hard to get more money. It has
nothing to do with getting more money. If you want more money, collect a
similar cause. What's a similar cause? Give away money. I mean the, the best
Wall Street young broker who wants to get ahead should go give money away.
That's the only cause for getting money. [student: unclear] Yeah, yeah, okay.
That's a long, that's a difficult. If you're going to try to write the whole thing
that's very, okay. "If getting rid, if getting rid of any form of ignorance." Let's
say it this way. "If getting rid of the basic forms of ignorance, okay, if getting rid
of the basic forms of ignorance," and then he doesn't say the rest of the sentence,
okay. This is code, okay, "were enough to take rebirth, were enough not to have
to take rebirth," okay. "If getting rid of the most basic forms of ignorance were
enough not to have to take rebirth." [student: You're saying that's implied?]
Yeah, yeah it is implied, sorry, okay, well then "at the very beginning of the path
of seeing {implied}, well then, at the very beginning of the path of seeing," then
you fill in the rest. What would happen? [student: There's no more rebirth.]
You wouldn't have to take any more rebirth. You wouldn't have to do anything
else, because he did get rid of what? [student: Of believing.] Of believing in a
self-existent me So we got two lines covered, right? Now we're on the third line.
[student: What was the last part of this.] Yeah, okay. I was afraid you'd say that.
You read to me what you have, and I'll fill it in. [student: If getting rid of any
basic form of ignorance were enough not to take rebirth, well then, at the very
beginning of the path of seeing. ] You would never have to take rebirth again.
[student: Okay, and then you said something else.] That's all. You would never
have to take rebirth again, and I like it because we're ending with, like, I consider
Dharmakirti's most important verse of all the hundreds of verses he wrote.
Then I don't mind if you put in that translation how "why, question mark"
Understood, "because he has not gotten rid of, he or she, has not gotten rid of
the inborn ignorance, form of ignorance." What, how would you describe
{pedron}, the inborn form of ignorance? It, it sees things as self-existent.
[student: Right, if sees things as self-existent... ] It doesn't have to be a belief.
You, you can not believe it. If you're an arya you don't believe it. If you're not
an arya you do believe it. It's just seeing things as self-existent, and the last line
says 'but if you were to get rid of it," what, get rid of what? [student: seeing
things as self-existent.] Yeah good, that, that advanced form of ignorance, right,
that deep form of ignorance, okay? I'll say it again. "But if you were to get rid of
that deep form of ignorance," and you all know that I mean, as you start to grasp
to yourself at the last moment of this life, well then, {sipa kali yu}, how could you
ever take rebirth, meaning a bad rebirth, samsaric rebirth. Good place to stop.
So next class is a review, right, and did we set a date for your final? One week
later, okay, coo, and by the way, if you feel you need more time for your final, I
don't care if you want to come and take it another time. If you're going to be
going somewhere and you want to do it on another night earlier, I don't care
either. You're welcome to do that, but the finals will be on this table. You find
somebody who has a key. If you don'td have a key and you want a key, let me
know. I'll give you a key. You're welcome to come here any time and to use this
room for good purposes. Just please remember to lock the door. I'll give you a
key, and then you can come and take it any time you want. You can find
somebody who has a key. Kylie, you have a key, anybody else have a key?
You know, you can copy Kylie's key, or I'll give you a key, you're welcome, I'll
go out and make them tomorrow. You're welcome to come and use this room,
and you're welcome to give yourself your own exam. And then your new
classes start on October 18th. I'm sorry, the 17th. [student: Will there be a quiz
on Monday.] Yeah, sure quiz ten. [student: unclear]. Oh we covered them
already. That was because of this he's that, because of that he's this. See what I
mean? By proving that he's the, because he has compassion, that proves he's the
protector, those were the other three. We already did them. Okay Mr. Kylie

[prayer: {Sashi pukyi jukshing metok tram

[tape ends with some additional comments about taking the final exam, etc. and
the beginning of the short mandala prayer.]
Course 4 – The Proof of Future Lives