ACI 4 «Доказательство будущих жизней», занятие 8

Class Eight: Proofs of the Existence of Future Lives
September 22, 1994
Geshe Michael Roach
transcribed by Amber Moore



[laughter] I was up at Dr. Shen's. He let me have, he let me use his collection.

[student: Collection of what?]

He has about eight thousand Tibetan manuscripts. He said, you can just stay
there all night of you want, so, [laughs] so I just about did. You know its just
good chance.

[student: is that Chan Yen Monastery? Is that Chan Yen Monastery?]

[student: What monastery is it?]

So he said you could use the key, you know, I don't care you could stay out all
night. And I had to use it while I could use it. So I was a wreck today. I couldn't
do anything, he let me stay today also. I found allot of neat stuff we were doing
a... the prayer book for tsechu and inside there there's a prayer book called The
Source of All my Good. And we, it's an unknown commentary, it's by Pabonka,
it was lost and we found it and then translated it. And also Tsongkhapas, the
book itself, that prayer which is always done at tsechu, isn't in its collected works,
I mean it's very... the whole thing is very exciting. But, if your into that kind of
stuff. So that was like all night.



[student: Well how old is that book? Is it, is it older that than the text that you've
been working on with [unclear]]



Well he, since you ask, [laughs], no, there's no such work in his collected works,
but it's buried in the middle of his bigger works and I don't think people know
that. Then it looks like around the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama people started to
attach it to the six... the {jorchu}, the preliminary practices, the {ngundro}. You
know, I don't know why it's the {jorchu}, but for some reason they started to
take it out and use it at the end of the {ngundro}. Which is why we do it. I
haven't figures out why yet. I have an idea who is the first person who did it.
That's interesting. He wrote that in praise of... Maitreya or something like that.



[student: Michael? What's that letter on the bottom after the {ma}?]



This one?



[student: Yeah.]



That's a lazy {cha}. Hold on a second.



[student: Can we run that line, run in?]



Anyway, this is proof number seven, alright? This is the seventh proof. We had
the first six right? Just to make sure I'm in the right class. I like this one. {Drubo
wangden che chen} That means, "let's take the, the four elements", which have
{wangpo}. What's {wangpo}?



[student: Sense powers]



Sense powers, okay? Sense powers, you know, I'm trying to think if living tissue
is a good translation of that, I have a feeling it might be. I can't think of any
living tissue which is not the four elements which have the sense powers, you
know what mean? I can't think of any four elements that are included in your
body which have sense powers which are not living tissue, I think it's... I think
they're trying to say the same thing, okay. Consider that, the living tissue in
your body basically. {Loykyu mayinde}, "it's not the main cause for your mind",
okay, it's not that material cause for your mind, it's not what turns into your
mind. Because {Tibetan...... ], which means, you can damage the sense powers
but you don't damage the mind, necessarily.
[Student: You mean, you can damage living tissues?]



Yeah, this is a big argument of Dharmakirtis, and you have to, you have to listen
to it in plain English, okay? He.... the Shravakas say what? They say what about
the body and the mind?



[student: That they're inseparable.]



What?



[student: They are inseparable.]



Yeah, that they're... that the body provides a unique basis for the mind to stay,
to be there and to stay, that happens to be their beleif and that happens to be the
belief of western countries too. You know, that the, that the physical body and
maybe the brain mainly provides this unique basis for the mind. And unique is
a, is a word that Dharmakirti uses also. He agrees that in general the sense
powers have some kind of supporting function for the mind. But he doesn't
agree that they are the unique basis for the mind. He doesn't agree that they are
the, the one main source for mind to come from, he doesn't agree with that. He
agrees that they a play a role but he doesn't agree that they are the one main
source.



[student: So without them, I mean if you had no sense powers?]



{Su... sumeka} formless, formless realm, you can, according to Buddhism. You
wouldn't have any sense perceptions, but you would have mental thoughts, you
would have mental perceptions. So he says something interesting, you know,
it... what is it for the mind to be healthy? Or what is it for the mind to be, there's
a word in Tibetan called {gyerpa} which means... I don't know what it means. It
means like when you're body is fat and happy. [laughter] You know, it means
like, healthy and happy, you know? [laughter] It means like healthy and happy,
you know.



[student: Robust?]



Prosperous in a way, there's a word like that, I don't know how to say it.
{Gyerpa} means, "why". It's like {sangye]. It means prosper or something like
that. Just be chubby and healthy and, you know, shining with health, you know,
stuff like that. That, that word is used for the mind when the mind is in a healthy,
happy state. Like if the mind were well fed, like if the mind is in general, being
sustained nicely, then it's clear and it's happy. And it's joyful in a way. That's the
Buddhist definition of a nice, healthy well fed mind, okay. And what he's saying
is that if there's this unique relationship that the Shravakas say there is, then
somehow, the mind should become less contented, the mind should be
somehow distressed if you, if you, poked your eye out or if you cut your finger,
then the mind should, {kyep} always be distressed, okay. There should never be
a case where the mind wasn't distressed, or you can say it this way. If your
removed one of the sense powers, if you removed twenty percent of your sense
powers then your mind should get twenty percent less {gyerpa}. Should
somehow get distressed by twenty percent, it should loose it's health by a, by a,
similar ratio, if the body were the unique and ultimate basis for the mind. In the
way that if you like took a certain amount of material from the acorn and the
oak tree is somehow stunted or deficient. I mean it sounds like a silly argument,
I mean who would believe that if you poked your eye out, your mind would get
distressed, necessarily, okay or twenty percent smaller, or something like that.
But, but that would be the necessary consequence if the mind had this unique
relationship with the body, with the sense powers. He, he gives the example of
bodhisattvas. And there was a famous bodhisattva, I forgot his name, anyway,
he, he met a demon on the road in India, he was in Vimila... He was in Nalanda
or one of the main monasteries and he was on his way there, and the demon
said... and he disguised himself as a normal person and he said, "If you are a big
bodhisattva then let me have you eyeball." He pushed his fingers into his eye
socket and pulls out his own eye, and he gave it to him and he gave it to this
being to make him happy. I mean, the story of Nagarjuna is the same, the way
that Nagarjuna died is that someone asked for his head and he gave it to them,
or something like that. So, so then the demon threw the eyeball on the ground
and smashed it and the guy almost lost his bodhichitta, or it's a famous example
you know, "Can you loose your bodhichitta after you have it?. Then he went to
the monastery finally and people used to make fun of him because he had a
disfigured eye and he used to say, "Well I've understood... I've seen more of the
scriptures with one eye than you see with two". or something like that.
[laughter] Anyway, he, if you, by the way you're not allowed to do that until
you're ready, [laughter] okay, they say start with vegetables. Shantideva says
start with vegetables. You break your bodhisattva vow if you do it too early. I
mean you shouldn't try...



[student: Give your eye away too early?]



I mean doing things like chopping your arm off or giving someone your kidney.
If you're not ready, you're not supposed to do it. Cause then you'll regret it later
and it'll be a very bad deed. If you regret it later then it'll be a very bad deed. If
you regret a good deed, that's very bad deed. So they say don't do a good
deed... don't like give away all your money cause then you'll regret it like three
days later and then all that good power will become a very bad, negative power.



[student: Michael?]



Yes.



[student: What about the myriad exceptions to this particular rule? The fact that
most ordinary human beings are distressed, and their minds...]



He says, "{ma kyepa}", he says, "{ma kyepa}". Now they say... there's an
explanation in the reading of why people get distressed, but it's not, if it were a
unique basis, an ultimate basis for the mind, then, then the mind should become
always distressed regardless of who you are. So it seems to be a matter of
training, and not of a, an an innate relationship. There's no inherent relationship
between your body and your mind of that type, there just is not.               The
bodhisattva feels something, he senses the feeling of the eye coming out but he
just feels happy, he feels joy at that someone has asked him for something. I
think when you get to that level and someone has asked you for something you
just feel very happy to give it to them, you don't really think that you're not
gonna have it anymore.



[student: But if he's addressing the Shra, Shra, Shravakas...]



Shravakas.



[student: Shravakas, I would assume that they wouldn't believe in bodhisattvas
and they wouldn't believe that you could poke your eyeball out and be content,
so it's sort of a mute point isn't it?]



Well it must have been a good argument for them or Dharmakirti wouldn't have
given it. You are not allowed to give an argument in two cases. You're not
allowed to give an argument to somebody if they already believe it, that's bad
logic, it's a bad, it's a bad, it's what do you call it? Illogic. It's one of the faults of
logic. You're not allowed to argue to Dharmakirti that things are impermanent,
because he already saw it. You don't have to argue it. If it's unnecessary, it's a
bad argument, also if your opponent hasn't seen the truth of your reason, you're
not allowed to give it to them. Dharmakirti wrote down those rules, so
apparently there were some Shravakas who had seen a Buddhist do something
like that, you know, I don't know. It would have to be.



[student:    I mean, your average westerner would say that's a preposterous
thing.]



Well no, would say that that's a very common that... I think the best one in the
west is when a woman has a baby and she goes through that suffering. I've
been at the bed side of a woman who was just gave birth maybe an hour before
and they are like beaming, they are like happy and thrilled and the sense powers
have undergone a pretty bad damage, you know. If, if the sense powers were
the cause that turned into the mind, then the mind of a woman who had just
given birth would be quite distressed and damaged, and it's not. It's actually
quite beaming and happy, and {gyerpa}. Happy.
[student: But they don't feel the pain at the time they don't have the pain an
hour later. If they had the pain they would be stressed.]



No. There must be some discomfort, I would imagine, not having been through
it in this life, there must be extreme discomfort, would say. Especially, like a
cesarean or something. If they're like smiling and holding the kid up and, you
know. I, what I'm saying is... it's hard for you to imagine what I'm saying, but
what I am saying is, he's saying that if... it's so silly that you can't accept it, if the
sense powers were the unique cause that turned into the mind, or the unique
basis for the mind, then a woman who just gave birth should, should suddenly
be very depressed, very upset or very sad or....



[student: Some are.]



I know, some are, but not all. But, I mean, when you talk cause and effect you...
when you take away the acorn, all oak trees don't grow. That's a {nyer linki gyu}
That's a material cause. So there, obviously the pain has some kind of effect on a
normal mind, but it's not necessary, so it's not the {nyer linki gyu} it's not a .... it's
not a, it's not that necessary relationship which a direct cause must have with it's
direct result, it's just... it doesn't. And you know, I, I, I've been teaching this, this is
the third time I taught it, right? In the last week or so. You can't go home and
say now, "Oh, yeah now I believe in future lives." You know. But given all these
ten arguments together, if you can get some kind of a sense, if you can start, if
you put them all together as a sum, I think they can, they can affect your
thinking about future lives, I don't expect you to accept it either, right away. But,
but think about the relationship between your sense powers and your mind.
The living tissue and your mind are just not like that.



[student: What about all these chemicals you know, that people take, they take
you to a better place?]



[student: Prosaic.]



No, they talk about it, they talk about it.
[student: You know, acid, I mean, obviously there is a great connection between
these things and the mind.]



The Shravakas, the Shravakas say that, they say, "what happens when a person
get drunk", you know? The alcohol affects the sense powers and then the
persons mind becomes crazy, you know. And they, they asked that question
too, I don't remember the answer. [laughter] Obviously it affects, but it's not the
main cause.



[student: So Michael....]



Obviously there is a connection, but it's not the acorn to the oak tree.



[student: So in meditation supposedly where, supposedly, you know, I mean
whatever happens to the mind, is there not, is there not something happening to
the senses when you meditate, I mean, is there not energy flowing through you?
Is there not...]



Oh, no, on a higher level and on the {tumo mayinbe nam}, right, what's that?
{Tumo mayinbe nam}. In the, in the teachings that I can't mention in the sutra
class, there's obviously a relationship, but, but not to the gross physical body and
not to the, not to the physical body that you are thinking of now. That's a
different subject. [laughs] Okay, but that is very important for {dzog rim}, for
the second stage of tantric practice, that's, that's, that's a great relationship, but
different, different powers in there. Okay, yeah.



[student: I'm, I'm just having allot of with the first six and this one just trying to
get the logical principal. And, and so would you say the logic behind this one,
and probably some of the others, is that if there... because of the word always, if
there's an exception, or if there is a higher case or some, then, then it disproves
the...]
If there's an exception that shows it's not the {nyer linki gu}, it's not the main
material cause, if it were the contributing factor, like with the exceptions, that
would prove that the sense powers are a contributing factor to mind, but they
are not the stuff that comes from mind. You did not come from sense powers ,
your mind did not come from sense powers. Which means that you didn't come
from sense powers? Where did you come from? [laughs] I mean, you don't
think of it, you just assume it was your mothers and fathers stuff. But, it's not
and there's so many evidences that it's not and finally when you get to the
evidence that it's the mind it's quite comfortable. I mean, you're almost relieved,
by the end to hear, "Oh yeah, it was just your mind", oh well that makes sense,
same stuff you know, came the moment before, turned into my mind now and
that's why all these things are [unclear].



[student: Okay Michael...]



Yeah.



[student: I'm sorry, can you just re... translate that all in one piece?]



Yeah. Consider the, consider the elements... in the form of sense powers, you
see, some people on that elimination chart got a little confused because the sense
powers are made of atoms, are made of the four elements also. There are inner
four elements and there are outer four element. Consider the inner four
elements, they are not the unique, let me see what the right word is... they are
not the unique cause of mind, because when they are damaged the mind is not
always damaged.



[student: Are we going to read this?]



What's that?



[student: Are we gonna read it, you know going...]
I don't think so. If you wanna, you have to come on... you have to the other
class. It's, it's in your, the Tibetan is in your hand out



[student: [unclear]]



{Dey} [repeat], {penje} [repeat], {yinbe yecheu} [repeat], okay. [laughter] Okay,
number eight, {lo cheu chen} means, "let's consider mind", main mind. Now
Dharmakirti's gonna...



[student: Sorry, can't take notes, [unclear] what to do?]



Let's take mind, consider mind, {lo cheu chen} means, "consider mind", okay.
Now Dharmakirti's gonna turn the tables, what do you think he's gonna say?
Turn the tables from number seven.



[student: Mind causes sense powers.]



Yeah. Alright, cause not only do the sense powers not provide the basis for
mind, mind provides the cause for the sense powers.



[student: Mind does?]



Yeah. But if he says "cause", is, isn't he gonna get in trouble?



[student: Because it should disappear?]



Yeah, and turn into the sense powers right, so he doesn't say cause, he's tricky,
he says basis, support. {De penje yinbe yecheu} {De penje}, {penje} means...
How do you say it? We're gonna get into this in the next class, but there are
basically two kinds of karma, and they are two links in the Wheel of Life, two
different links. I should bring the Wheel of Life next time.



[student: You mean two links in the chain of dependent origination?]



Yeah, do you know that Wheel of Life with the monster who's got the world in
his hands? The second link is the potter making pots, that's, that's called... many
weird translations, a good, a good translation would be immature karma,
immature karma. Unripened karma, that's the karma that you do throughout
your life.



[student: Do you mean causal?        Creating the causes, karma in the sense of
creating the causes?]



Karma in the sense of all the things you think, say and do in this life, good or
bad, okay? Link number ten, do you know what the tenth link looks like?
Number two I... it makes sense, it's a potter, number, number ten is a pregnant
woman. And that means ripe karma, that's another kind of karma, the ripe
karma is your mind, mainly, and it's gonna throw a new birth, it's gonna project
a new birth, it's called projecting karma. And the difference between the second
link, which is unripened karma and the tenth link which is ripened karma, is links
number eight and nine. Links number eight and nine, we're gonna talk about it
next week, basically they are types of desire which trigger the karma and cause it
to project a new rebirth. And that's a very important subject to learn, if you
want to get out of rebirth, [laughs]. You know



[student: Could you repeat that?]



Excuse me?



[student: Could you repeat that, about the...]
Yeah, what makes number ten ripe karma and number two unripe karma, is
number eight and nine. Number eight and nine are forms of desire that occur as
you die, which...



[student: That occur as you die.?]



That occur as you die, that make that karma powerful enough, that give it the
potency to throw a new life, so in that sense the mind what? What's it's real
relationship to the sense powers?



[student: Taking form.]



It basically causes them, he's not saying it turns into the sense powers, but
basically they are the, they are the thing that throws the existence of the sense
powers...



[student: But in a way, they're saying it's what's causing life, and then life is...]



What's causing samsaric life.



[student: And then life is connected to the sense powers and that's... and then it
seems like it's further down the line that the sense powers come about.]



Ah, yeah.



[student: Or he's saying that sense powers is life.]



Well, now don't forget he's being sarcastic. He's exaggerating the case, why?
They are so attached to thinking that the sense powers are the basis for mind, so
he says, you know how you sometimes do when your trying to convince
somebody of something, you, you say exactly the opposite for effect, you see,
not only did I not, you know, lie to you that they are, I went out of my way to
tell you the exact truth, it probably wasn't. But you say the exact opposite; not
only does the sense powers not cause the mind, they come from the mind. And
then he waits to see how they will react, this is Dharmakirti's argument. Now
he's gotta prove that, obviously, obviously they can't take that on face value. A
Shravaka can't say, "oh yeah your right, I didn't think of that". My, my , my
mind from a former life threw my mind into, my sense powers into this life, they
obvi... they don't accept that, that form of mind existed. They might have to
accept that there was a {pen jyeki kyuba}. Mmm, what do you want to call that?
Like a locomotive cause. It's the cause which pushes the thing into the future, it's
a different kind of cause. Like projecting, it's a projecting.



[student: Throwing,]



It's, it's the one which pushes the event into the future, makes it happen. {Pen}
means what you do to an arrow, with a bow. That's also called a {pen}, the {pen}.
So that's, I think this argument is more for effect. I don't think he's expecting a
Shravaka to say, "oh, yeah that's right". I think he's just trying to do a... a combat.



[student: [unclear]]



What's that?



[student: That's considered the mind, the mind provides the basis for he sense
powers and the seed.]



Because it projects them.



[silence]
Right.



[student; At least the cold is keeping him awake]



Say, {lo cheu chen} [repeat], {wangpo} [repeat], {nyepey} [repeat], {kiryin tey}
[repeat], nah, nah, that's wrong. [laughter] {Lo} [repeat], {nyepey} [repeat,
{kiryin tey} [repeat], {lungyi} [repeat] {gyidey} [repeat], {di tar} [repeat], {che bey
cheu} [repeat]. {Lo cheu chen} means, "let's consider the mind" again.



[student: {cheu chen}]



{Cheu chen} means "let's consider". And in a debate you go de, de, de... {cheu
chen}. What does {cheu} mean?



[student: Dharma?]



{Cheu} means, "dharma" or existing thing, so when you say {cheu chen} it means
"let's take this thing". {Cheu} has two completely different meanings. Dharma
has two completely different meanings; one is the Buddhas teachings, and one is
any object in the universe is called a, a dharma. So a couple of years ago when
the Bon po's showed up for the winter debates, for the first and last time
[laughs]. You know Bon right?



[students: Ohh...]



Bon.



[students: Bawn. [laughter] Bawn. [laughter]]



They, they came and they said, "{..... Bon chen!}". I said, "What?" "{Bon chen!}" I
said, "It's {cheu chen}, not {Bon chen}." And he said, "We don't believe {cheu},
we're Bon's." [laughs] It was, it was really funny. I don't know, it would be like
if someone was reading in a newspaper and they were Catholic and it said
"baptism by fire" and they said "Catholicism by fire", and you said, "what do you
mean?", and they said, "Well we're not Baptists so we can't use the word Baptist
[laughter] You know what I mean? It would be that, it would be that silly, you
know.        [laughter]    It was like really silly you know, we were like
"What?" [laughter].



[student: Their not coming back again?]



Bon is a religion that was in Tibet before Buddhism.



[student: They're never coming back?]



They never came back. [laughter] They did pretty good, but they just didn't
come back. But one year they came, and the Sakyas came one year. It's like a,
you know, it's, it's a... what do you call it, it's a competition, you know, they
weren't really ready for it. It's very hard. {Lo mepey gyu}, {lo mepey gyu yin te}
means, "It is the cause for the mind to stay". "Consider mind, it is the cause for
the mind to stay".



[student: It refers to mind? ]



Yeah. Take your mind. What is, well we'll get to there. What is keeping you
alive, basically ? Why does your mind go on? Why doesn't your mind just stop
before you die, or does it stop when you die? [laughs] You know, but what
makes it... what makes it go up.... why did Maria Placebes mother die, at that
particular time? What made the mind stop at that particular time?



[student: Body stop or mind stop?]
I mean appear to stop. Oh, oh, we say that right, the body stops and the mind
stops. I mean, but why... well first of all, you don't know if the mind stops,
right? I mean that's not one of Dharmakirti's arguments, but that could be a
pretty good argument. Actually it comes later in Dharmakirti's text. But he says,
"you know, it's true that the mind, that the body stops flopping around when the
mind, the mind, the body stops flopping around and then you think the mind is
gone or something, or the mind died, but you have no evidence, you have no
proof that the mind died, you haven't, you are enjoying a conclusion that may or
may not be true. You, you can't prove that the mind stopped just because the
body stopped flopping around". Like if the mind were still inside the body, but
the body stopped working, then the mind would be like a captive in there
saying, "ahhh, I'm still here, I'm still here!" You know, and the body just is not
cooperating and the body can't move anymore, but, but what if the mind is still
there. What if the just body stops working, and the mind is, the mind is stuck
without a body?



[student: That's like a coma in a way.]



The mind doesn't die. We don't know that that's not true, in fact that's true. Just
because the body stops doesn't prove that the mind has stopped necessarily, but
that's not this argument. He says, "Not only does mind cause the sense powers,
mind keeps your mind going". Mind is why your mind goes on in this life. Mind
is why your mind doesn't stop in this life. What keeps you alive, basically? Why,
why do some people die and some people live? Why do old people live and
young people die? What keeps the mind going?



[student: Mind goes on, mind, You know aren't you, now isn't that, now I know
that's what we're proving, but it sounds.... it sounds a little silly I mean, it's like
saying the tree causes the tree, I mean how can you say something causes itself?]



That's.... oh good, yeah, he didn't say that technically. What he says was, "the
mind causes the staying of the mind." Mind causes the sticking around of the
mind. Okay, it's true that in a logical proof you are not allowed to repeat one
element twice. You can't say, take the mind, it's a mind, because, you know what
I mean? I, I... actually you can. [laughs]
[student: What is the third sentence of this argument?]



I didn't give it to you yet. [laughter]



students: Why? Why?]



Why does your mind stay? Basically, I mean, didn't you wonder why you're still
alive? [laughter] It's kind of unlikely, you know, I mean, cars get older, I have an
eight year old car and it's like well made but it's getting old, you know. Yeah,
what makes the mind, why does the mind stay you Shravakas? I mean, houses
don't stay past fifty years, you know, normally. Cars don't stay past ten,
normally. Why do people stick around for so long, why, why, why does your
mind stay? What keeps your mind here?



[student: Why doesn't it stay around for longer?]



Yeah, why doesn't it? Yeah, and he says, "Former cases of mental karma cause it
to stay." And we'll talk about it.



[student: Former cases?]



Yeah. Mental karma from the past, how's that?



[student: What does that mean?]



I'll tell you. [laughter]




[student: It looks like, it looks like it's the deterioration of the body, I mean, I
would have to agree with whoever these guys are, it looks that way.]



[student: Yeah, cause the elements go out of balance.]



[student: It certainly looks like your mind goes when the body goes.]



Well, why does the body go?



[student: Because it deteriorates.]



[student: Because that's the way it is, impermanent.]



You see this is this is... no, this is the argument. It's so elementary, that you can't
see it cause of your cultural background. It's has nothing to do with the truth of
the thing. Why, why do they go out of balance?

[student: It's, it's not like a {unclear], it's not just...]



[student: Why do you age?]



Why? Why? Why you? Why them?                        Why her?   You know, why at that
moment? You know, why?



[student: Because of circumstances.]



[laughs] Why did those circumstance occur? You see, that's what a Buddhist has
to be thinking. There's causes for everything. You're not even a good western
scientist, you're not even a good western thinker, you're not even a good
western normal person if you, if you say there a cause for some things but
there's no causes for other things. It doesn't make sense. If everything has a
cause then there has to be a reason why this person died today and not
tomorrow. And why she died before he died, he's much older. I saw Dr. Shen,
he's like eighty-two years old and he's like "Haro Michael!           How are
you?" [laughter] And, and then a Maria Placebes mother, you know, she's a big
healthy lady and she just... they, they gave her everything, they used
everything, she died healthy, I mean she just suddenly died, you know. They
had her, they said everything's fine, you know, then boom, she's just dead, you
know, why?



[student: Is that the ripening karma that you were talking about? ]



It's sim... not exactly the same, this re... this is referring to the general mental
karma of your whole past life. What we just talked about were those very
specific last minute triggering karmas that, that throw your life into the future,
that if you could affect those karmas, if you could affect the, those emotions at
death, and were gonna talk about it next class cause it's so important, your next
birth could be quite different. That's that's a big deal, that's so important that
we're gonna go to another book actually for that, which is [b: Abbhisar...], we're
gonna go back to the Perfection of Wisdom book. But, that's his, that's his
argument. So let's pretend that you're a Shravaka and I'm Dharmakirti, basically
the argument is this; you know, "well, why do you think I'm still alive, what do
you think is keeping you going?" And they say, "Well my elements didn't
dissolve yet." And then, and then he's got to try to prove, why do some people
with such good elements die quickly? [laughs] You know. And other people
with shaky elements live a long time, you know, years and years, you know,
why? Why do some people die before others?



[student: Because maybe you build a resistance towards sickness.]



But then some old people die before the young people. [laughs] When you're
talking causation, it has to be all the time the same. I mean, it should be an
absolute rule that the older people die before the younger people.



[student: Well, it is.]
[student: But there has to be some exceptions.]



Healthy people die after unhealthy people.



[student: Yeah, but you're, you're assuming the causes are always supposed to
be the same. ]



And then you say, "Well it does." Because even Vitas Scaralitis or whatever, he
was very healthy, but then the elements got so messed up so fast that he died.



[student: But there was a cause, there was carbon monoxide that was in the...]



They messed up his elements to such a high degree, fifty percent of his blood
became carbon monoxide. The oxygen in his blood but then he died. But then a
Buddhist wants to know, why him? You know, the newspaper said sixty people
in the United States die this way a year. Okay, so out of two hundred million
people, why him? And that's, it sounds obvious, it sounds silly, it sounds like, oh
that's the way it goes, but you are brainwashed by your culture.



[student: I know, but, but, but, that's what medical research does, they use, they
go into the body and they check and they say, why him? They say, "Yeah well it
happened to him because this is... " , you know...]



Because he was sleeping in that room and the propane leaked out and he died.



student: Yeah.]



And but the Buddha say's well, "Why didn't the propane leak out when he was in
the room?" [laughter]
[student: There's a good example is that there's, there's a very rare disease
where a child ages, and by the time they're eight years old they've gone
completely through the whole normal life cycle and their body becomes very old
and then they die. I mean there's probably a medical explanation for it, but it
doesn't explain...]



No there should be a...



[student: ...why it happened.]



Explaining... well, anyway, I get your argument, what you're saying is, "Michael
Roach, you're just explaining, you've accepted that the elements cause the mind
to die, because when the elements cause the mind to get messed up to a certain
point, the mind dies and you're just trying to argue to me why the elements got
messed up or not."



[student: Right.]



That's what you should be debating to me, but your hands are hurt so you can't
do it, okay. [laughter] There's one kid in the monastery that, he has his arm cut
off, [ohh] so he goes [slap] you now, and it like that, it's cool. [laughter] Change
the subject when you can't get out of an argument. [laughter] Old debating trick.



[student: It has to be true, it has to be always true, what about, what about
many cases when they say, "killing is wrong", and yet we find that the Buddha
killed this person, they have an exception there, and you have allot of these in
Buddhism, where you say, "This is wrong, this is wrong, you're not supposed to
do this." But then you hear this great Lama, he was a great Lama, he did
something, but he was a great Lama, you know what I'm saying?]



Well, because there's exceptions to some things, doesn't mean there's exceptions
to everything.
[student: Yeah, but I'm saying, you know, why do you have to say that
everything has to be true all the time, because it's not the case in Buddhism that
everything's true all the time because even the greatest Lama made exceptions
for that rule, you now?]



Let's say, people try to say that...



[stud
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