ACI 2 «Буддийское Прибежище», занятие 3

TYPING TWO OF CLASS TWO

Course II: Buddhist Refuge
Class three: Bodhichitta and Mind
November 10, 1993

Transcriber: ???
Poofread - May 2003



[cut] it's the way it is, it's what Mike Tyson when he punches you [laughter] it's
what you lose, that's main mind, main mind just means consciousness, just your
raw awareness of...it's a miracle if you think about it, you know, the fact that you
are aware...where does that come from? how does that happen? you know, it's,
it's like some kind of miracle, it's more a miraculous than a planned or anything,
it's how, how is it that you know anything? how is it that you are aware [student:
[unclear]] and that's called main mind...and then mental functions are, are
focused at particular things...jealously is focused at someone else's
achievements...you know anger is focused at someone else's face or the way
they speak to you or...so each of those mental events is a mental function and
then main mind is a mental event but it's not a particular function, it's just there,
it's just aware, so sometimes there's a thing where some kinds of mental
functions depend on main mind to shift and then they go with it, then they’re
not acting on their own accord, but but going for refuge does, going for refuge
has a specific object, and it will go to that object without the...it doesn't ride on
the coattails of a of raw awareness, it doesn't ride on the coattails of another, of
another mental function, it's … it's independent, it… it doesn't depend on
another mental function to move somewhere before...so it can go with it

[student: so wouldn't that be spon… spontaneous-- rising?]

that's …what by its own accord or however I translate it - that's what that means,
and it's a little bit technical, and you'll study it later when you study the mental
functions in the second chapter or the [b: Abidharmakosha]

[student: so the cause that arises of its own power means it's spontaneously--
arises]

Meaning that it doesn't have to ride on the coattails on another mental function,
there are some mental functions that can't do their job unless another mental
function goes before and drives them afterwards, and … and this is not like that
– this… this is a a discrete event of the mind and it goes to its object, by its own
accord, by… independently, it doesn't have to wait for feeling, for example, to
go towards that object, it's not, for example, dependent on you having a good
feeling about that object before you can have that, its …its independent, so that's
the general meaning of that, but it's a little technical, so I didn't go into it, but it's
in the definition and I couldn't leave it out.
[student: obviously you have a very deep ingrained trust in the object]

yeah

[student: if, if you if you go there without having to think about it]

Yeah and you have fear also, you have fear also, so it doesn't mean like a
spontaneous thing that comes up in your mind, it just refers to: does it require
that main awareness for example, looks at the object first and then later that the
refuge can look at the object or something like that.

[student: so it's very automatic when the fear occurs]

It's independent of the other mental functions, basically.

[student: but it's based on training?]

It's based on a lot of things, mostly fear and trust, all right. But that's…

[student: so it wouldn't be dependent on fear moving first in the mind?]

Technically yes but it's, it's not {sung den} with fear and that's a little tricky, that's
a little tricky.

[student: I mean is it possible to take refuge without having fear?]

No, I don't think so

[student: --it would be dependent on fear...]

Right, but it's not dependent on, the main mind on a …it's not dependent on on
awareness moving to the object before the mental function moves to the object,
it's a it's a tricky thing and I'd rather leave that specific thing for when we study
mind and mental functions which we will…

[student: but it sound's like it's outside of these two things that mind is divided
into]

No, it is a mental function--
[student: it's a mental function...]

Yeah-cause {sem ba}the movement of the mind is a mental function, it's one of
the mental functions that always goes with mind. It's mind dependent…it's ….
it's one that you never lose for all your life, even when you die, {sem ba}never
stops.

[student: what is {sem ba}?]

{Sem ba} is any movement of the mind, the mind always moves, the mind never
stops. There's cer….

[student:--so when Mike Tyson punches you out-it's moving [laughter]]

Yeah, no, you reach a lower level of consciousness, but you're really not
unconscious--feeling is another one: you always have feeling going on. Feeling
is always present when the mind is present, you don't …you may have neutral
feeling but you're feeling a feeling all the time and there are other mental
functions like that

[student: I promise this'll be very very brief--]

Okay

[student: the three pages that we just got, of the text? Are they numbered one
through three because it's another section of another book?]

Yeah - it's another section and I wanted… I thought about numbering them all
the way through but I rather you keep it behind the one you've got already and
then next week you're gonna get a different one and there'll be five sections like
that because I don't want to renumber them and then start all over again, I mean
I don't want to number them all the way through and then not, they're kind of
parts chopped out of a book

[student: so if we ever get them out of order we'll contact you--[unclear]]

You'll be in trouble...[laughs] all right.
Please repeat {semkye} [repeat], {pa ni} [repeat], {shen den du} [repeat],
{yangkdak}[repeat], {tsogkpa} [repeat], {jangchub du} [repeat] Okay This is the
–

[unclear-tape cuts out]

that's it, that's the whole presentation           of   bodhichitta   in   the   [b:
abhisamaralankhara] [laughs] okay?

{semkye pani shemden dup yangkdak tsogk pa jangchub duk….unclear} actually
there's about four more lines and that's it. So obviously we need a little [laughs]

[student: elaboration]

By the time you get to the [b: ? kita tipmaydhargyan] in the 15th century--16th
century you have a … you have a - it's become about 60, 70 pages, of which you
have three in your hand.        You can treat this as the short definition of
bodhichitta--you're gonna learn a much longer one tonight
{semkye semkye} okay means "bodhichitta", I call it the wish for enlightenment,
okay?
{pa} goes along with it
{ni} means "is"
{shen den du} means "for the sake of others"

[silence]

{shen den chyu?} I'm sorry, I mispelled that, forget {pa ni shen den du} [unclear] I
mispelled that[unclear]--{yang dak tsogpa jangchub} means "total
enlightenment" - and {du} means "the wish"

[student: so is yangdak "total"?]

yangdak tsogkpa is a word that means "totally total" [laughs] like "samyaksam
buddha" in Sanskrit, yeah

[student:I have a question here that might sound funny at first but--"total
enlightenment" is referring to Buddhahood right?]

We're gonna talk about it tonight, if you, I, I, well ask your question then I'll
[unclear]

[student: well my question is--and you don't have to answer it now - but here's
my question - I'm assuming that "total enlightenment" refers to Buddhahood,
and I'm assuming that by it's very nature, the word Buddhahood also means for
the sake of others, so if that's true this would sort of be a bit of a redundancy
here]

I understand that. I understand your question and it's what I thought it was and
it's a good question and we're actually gonna talk about it tonight.

[student: I'm sorry...[unclear]]

Yeah, it's a … it's a translation of a Sanskrit prefix--sam, which means …{samyak}
meaning "totally complete"

[student: I guess ending with- -the question is, is it possible to achieve total
enlightenment without it]

We'll get there

[student: being for the benefit of other...]

We'll get there, it's not,okay? So bodhichitta, {semkye} is defined as "the wish for
enlightenment, for the sake of others"- the wish to achieve enlightenment for the
sake of others - total enlightenment, sorry, okay.        Bodhichitta is the wish to
achieve total enlightenment for the sake of others--someone ever asks you the
definition of bodhichitta you can give that, that's the cheap one. That's what you
give in the monastery when you [laughs]don't remember the other one which is:
{shen den du yang dak tsogpay duk jangchub dak mig shen ral gye drol tse...
[unclear]semkye yi tsen yi} okay?

[student: is [unclear] nirvana referred to as enlightement?]

We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it, okay, and I know you want to learn that
longer definition, so...

[students: don't erase it; can you wait just a minute...?]

I can wait. In fact I won't even write the next one. I'll, I'll - you can use your text,
uh we're gonna work from the page two [rustling noises]. I don't encourage you
to write on it - I encourage you not to write on it-I encourage you to write on the
back of the page next to it or somethin'--that's it [unclear] --I write a little number
one and then I write my notes number one on the [unclear] side like a footnote.
It's a very beautiful line to memorize, I'm gonna ask the Tibetan track students to
memorize it. You should know the short definition - okay - basically there are
two …two elements going on you, you want nirv--you want total Buddhahood
and you want to help other people and that's bascially it, it's like refuge, refuge
had two elements, what were they?

[student: fear and belief]

Fear and belief, yeah, so now with bodhichitta we have two elements, it's
wanting to reach Buddhahood and wanting to help others, we call it {dung du
nyi denge sem}, it means, "the mind that has two wishes"--the mind that has--
that has two wishes—

[silence]

[student: did you say help 'all' ? or 'others'?]

He says others meaning all other beings, okay, and yourself.

[student: it's the same thing then...[unclear]]

oh yeah, this is the short definition

[student: no I'm saying others and saying all--is the same]

All right, so go to page two in the text - we're gonna talk about the second half,
in English, it says, "the definition of the Greater Way's Wish for Enlightenment is
as follows: " Greater Way means "Mahayana" all right? 'Mahayana'. Why do you
have to call a … why do you have to call a Bodhichitta a Mahayana? Isn't all
Bodhichitta Mahayana? I'm we're gonna start--this is what we do in the
monastery first, day after day, why, why do you say Mahayana Bodhichitta?
Isn't that a--whatayacallit?

[student: redundant--]

Redundant--isn't all Bodhichitta, Mahayana? in fact isn't isn't it when you get
Bodhichitta that you reach Mahayana? Right? You guys know that--gaining
genuine Bodhichitta is is is what it means to become Mahayana and until you
have true Bodhichitta you have not reached the Mahayana path yet--you can call
yourself a Mahayanist Buddhist but you're not --you're not a Mahayana person--
[laughs] okay—all right? Until you have genuine Bodhichitta--so why do they
say Mahayana Bodhichitta?-- I found it in a sutra many years ago--{semkye}
which is the Tibetan word for --one of the two Tibetan words for Bodhichitta--
there are three--{semkye} means: "to get the mind...to generate the mind...to
develop the mind", and it's the mind that wants to get Buddhahood--but there's
three Buddhahoods--okay? And this is very important in your school--what hat
are you wearing this course? What school are you in, this course? Do you know?

[student: Madhyamika Prasangika]

You're in Madhyamika

[another student: no--Madhyamika Svatantrik]

Svantantrika, yeah--we're in the lower Madhyamika school--yeah--you spend
twelve years in that and then you get to have four years in Prasangika [laughs]

[student: [unclear] we're in the higher school temporarily, acting like we're in the
lower school? or--]

you're always that--

[student: okay--I thought that's]

I said what hat are you're wearing I didn't say what you are--we say what hat are
you wearing - you know you go in a monastery you say - the guy says [clap]
give me the definition of Bodhichitta--ya say well what hat you want me to put
on you know- what whatdya want?

[student: so Prasangika is wearing Svatantrik hats

which all the great scholars were--right? yeah

[students: "{semkye}: to develop the mind" --and the end of the sentence
please...could you repeat the sentence, actually]

well, {semkye} means to "develop the mind" and it means "the mind that wants
to get Buddhahood," and there's three kinds of Buddhahood
{student: thank you...[silence]]

the lower Madhyamika school which is called: "Svatantrika"

[student: how do you spell Madhyamika?]

by the way the word "Madhyam" came into English as what?

[student: medium?]

yeah-okay-[unclear] the English word, 'medium'--'matyam'--Svatantrika--this
doesn't have anything to do with Tantra, it's the same root-it has nothing to do
with Tantra--okay--it's a school--it's the lower Madhyamika school--they say
there are three tracks, we only have two right?

[student: Madhyamika says--Svantantrika says there are three tracks?--]

yeah Svantantrika says there a three distinct tracks

[student: Budhhahoods?--]

and that each track has at its end --a final goal, for that track-- and those three
goals--you can think of it -- I I once drew a --we did a book about it once--it's like
this: there are three tracks going on, the lowest track is called, "Listeners" or
"Sravakas" that you may have read about it in books; they go through, you don't
need to--I'm not gonna test you on this - I just want you to hear their beliefs
cause it's important, they believe there's five paths the way that the others go
through--{sog, jor, tog, lung, nyimo [unclear]}--and then you reach Arhat--
Nirvana--

[student: what's the English for those 5 Paths--you just mentioned?]

I don't want to do the whole thing--this you study in the 13th year [laugh]--I'm
sorry--about the 11th year--but it's its: "Accumulation, Preparation, Seeing,
Meditation and then No More Learning--they're called Listeners because they
can hear Mahayana Dharma, they can repeat it to others, but they can't practice it

[student: they don't get it?]

they don't--they can even repeat what the Buddha said about Mahayana but they
can't do it--

[student: presumably because they don't get it or--]

they don't--

[student:--they don't see the value in it or they do but there's just something
[unclear]?--]

yeah--no--they can't--they're concerned to reach their own nirvana--yeah
basically not enough intelligence--yeah-basically that's their--they're a couple of
eons beyond us but [laughs]

[student: it's not intelli--it's more intelligence in the heart sense though--]

no--

[students: because they've achieved wisdom which some of the Bodhisattvas
have achieved--I'm sure they can hear it and they can [unclear]

well we call them "disciples who are dull-- dull-witted"

[student: "actually--you know on this very point--in Thailand in February I talked
with a Western Hinayana monk on this subject and I said, 'Well what's-- don't
you believe that --how are Buddhas, how do Buddhas come into existence if you
can't practice [unclear]?" and he says 'Oh no that's possible but that's so far
beyond that forget about even trying to do it...]

ohh...second track is Self-made Buddhas, they're one step up -

[student: these are the solitary realizers?]

yeah, what they call it but it's a bad translation, they're Self-made Buddhas

[student: now the only people that call them Self-made Buddhas, the the
Madhyamika [unclear]]

I'll, I'll explain it--solitary realizers is bad translation [unclear]

[student: it's in the book...]
--and then there's Mahayana--

[student: and Self-made Buddhas have 5--same 5 Paths?]

yeah-in their own track [silence]--and then Mahayana you go through your own
5 Paths and you reach Buddahood

[student: same 5--not different?]

[student: different]

they're called the same thing but they have different realizations--and I--it's a
long story, this is a whole subject, okay; it's believed by this school that each of
these 3 tracks perceives a different kind of emptiness--they don't call it
emptiness, they call it lack of self, selflessness-alright? So these three people all
perceive a different kind of selflessness

[student: so said--[unclear]...Svatantrikas]

[student: a different kind of...[unclear]emptiness?]

they say they're three degrees of selflessness, the highest one is emptiness
[laughs] I don't want to confuse you, these reason I brought it up is that these
three states are called the three enlightenments

[student: by?...]

by the Svatantrikas

[student: right...]

and in sutra--I can show you the sutra

[student: and so what is the difference between [unclear] two?]

so this is the answer to Mr. Kari's question--why we have to say total
enlightenment--total enlightenment means this one--Buddhahood--no? well why
not
[student: question was, total enlightenment also known as Buddhahood okay?

oh-but I'll talk about that too--now are Self-made Buddhas, Buddhas? No.
They're called {sangye} they're called Buddhas- even in Sanskrit they're called
Buddha, but they're not real Buddhas. Are they Self-made, what do you think?--

[student: [unclear]]

Can they, can they in this life without a teacher--

[student: no, without a teacher?]

become a--reach nirvana--without a teacher

[student: sure of course they can]

they do--they do because they've had trillions of teachers in their past [laughs]
lives--and people--you don't--people are uncomfortable with the word Self-made
Buddhas so they make up a word like Solitary Realizer and that's not the point,
the word is Self-made Buddha, but then you have to have a teacher to say, 'self-
made means: didn't have a teacher in this life--had trillions of teachers
before...Buddha means not a real Buddha, just reached nirvana--but the Sanskrit
word and Tibetan word is 'Self-made Buddha'

[student: so another better term would be, those who achieve enlightenment,
those who when finally achieve enlightenment didn't have the presence of their
teacher--]

in that last life

[student: yeah, at that time--]

yeah, nirvana, please or their-this enlightenment--their track's enlightenment

[student: their enlightenment--right...]

okay--so these are called the three enlightenments - and and it's found in sutra,
I've seen it in sutra, I found it in a sutra, I don't think many people realize that-
but that--for example there was a great saint named Katiana, he gave a Buddha
discourse--he gave a talk about Buddhism--the Listeners--people in the audience
reached the three {semkye's}--these people who had this kind of--ability--wanted
to get this nirvana--people on this track wanted to get this nirvana - people on
this track wanted to get Buddhahood--those are the three {semkye's}-those are
the three Bodhichittas--there are three Bodhichittas--that's why you have to say
Maha--the Greater Way's wish for enlightenment, in the text here--that's why
you have to say Mahayana Wish for Bodhichitta

[student: so what exactly is the Listener's nirvana and Self-Made Buddha's
nirvana?]

elimination of their bad thoughts

[student: and what's the difference between the 'chittas--the three different

between these two?

[student: how they got there?--]

how they got there-- yeah I'd say that-

[student: and the quality?]

I don't think there's a qualitative difference between those two--

[student: well if they empt--if they come at emptiness differently? if they
perceive emptiness differently, it is different--

[student: according to the Svatantrikas there must be a difference--if they're
perceiving [unclear] emptiness--]

[student: according to the Svatantrikas...]

well the cause of their cessation--the cause of their losing their bad thoughts, was
perceiving a different kind of selflessness--but I don't want to get into that--this is
a whole subject, there are books written about this book--one of the--can you go
from here to here? Can you--do you have to start back [unclear] here or can you
skip to here if you already start--you know, and we're not gonna get into it--

[student: Michael, at the beginning you said, all three can reach what?]
nirvana...nirvana

[student: nirvana...]

[student: what's the difference between Buddhahood and nirvana then?]

It's a great question - you tell me, you studied it--

[student: well nirvana is cessation of suffering for yourself, Buddhahood is
cessation for yourself and others--

it's very si--[unclear]

[student: omniscience--]

[student: --going out to help everyone else]

[student: yeah but they haven't--they're not--yeah [unclear]]

nirvana, nirvana achieved under the influence of Bodhichitta, nirvana achieved
under the influence of a love for all other beings, is Buddahood--

[student: yeah--]

it's nice-- it's beautiful, if you've got--if these two guys had had Bodhichitta in
their minds when they got to this point, they would have reached Buddhahood--

[student: so really the difference is, is almost the activity level, you both have the
same nirvana con-condition--and you, the difference is you're- you're not both
[unclear]

yeah?--cessation is the same--both, both lose your?--bad thoughts

[student: [unclear] but where does this omniscience come into play here then?]

and you lose your--knowledge [unclear] if you have Bodhichitta in your mind--

[students: so the Bodhichitta...didn't you say there are three kinds of
Bodhichitta--and if that's true--]
I'm sorry--Mahayana Bodhichitta-good correction--okay--and that's why the
book here says, I'm I'm gonna tear apart--this is what we do in a debate-and it
and it-otherwise you think this is just all-- why use so many words? you know,
why why doesn't they- why don't they just use this little definition that was okay
for Maitreya--it's okay for me [laughs]--but you have to expand on it or you can't
get it precise--so you do have to say Mahayana {semkye} {[unclear]-chen
semkye}--okay so -now I'm not gonna be--now when you're debating- now
okay listen you know I'm talking about Mahayana Bodhichitta--I know I'm
talking about Mahayana Bodhichitta--I'm not going to repeat the word
Mahayana tonight, Okay? Agreed? [laughs] You get it straight when you're
debating in the monastery, okay.

[student: can you explain the difference between the three results, between--
these three persons--]

yeah-this one--this person knows everything - these two don't - this person got
rid of all his suffering, they did also--so from negative side, all three of them--
they stopped all their suffering--but from positive side, now this person knows
everything--he sees everything in the universe in one moment--everything in
the past, everything that's going to be, everything thing that is - and he sees it
now--in one moment--he can see it all--that's the difference between them,
basically

[student: and also that the lower two don't have the desire as you would say, to
apply themselves to achieving the same [unclear]]

well it's a very beautiful subject to debate, and there's [unclear] beautiful books
about it--they always have to come back to here, they always have to come to
here-they always will come to here--how they are woken up out of their
cessation, out of their meditative state is very beautiful, you know--this process
by which they get the urge to help other people is very beautiful--it's a very
interesting subject, we don't--we're not doing that tonight [laughs] okay--
definition--don't forget we're talking Mahayana Bodhichitta now--which is the
Bodhichitta--which is the only Bodhichitta you ever heard of anyway, until
tonight, okay--it is that main mental awareness belonging to the Greater Way--
we're gonna tear apart each word--

[student: can you define what the non-Mahayana Bodhichitta is first?]

the desire to reach these two levels; it's the wish for enlightenment--
[students: for yourself--so how's that Bodhichitta--right--exactly]

I'm trying to say this, there are three Bodhichittas and two of them--they don't
worry about other people--because Bodhichitta is not--is the 'wish for
enlightenment'--they have the wish for enlightenment

[students: no!--[unclear] but we... wish for enlightenment...but that's not what we
said what Bodhichitta was before...]

that was {[unclear]-chen semkye}--that was assuming Mahayana Bodhichitta--
when you talk about the the {lam tsong sum kyi [unclear] ch( pay chang sem,
dang chitam [unclear]chik pa ma [unclear]} you say, 'c'mon, Bodhichitta in the
Three Paths? In the Three Principle Paths, and Bodhichitta's [clap] different
things!' You know when you're talking Three Principle Paths you're talking
Mahayana Bodhichitta, and everybody knows that--you're not talking general
Bodhichitta

[student: never knew there was general Bodhichitta--[unclear]]

yeah no people don't know who haven't studied--there's three {semkye's}

[student: well that's partly because Bodhichitta is one word]

there's three {semkye's}, I'm I'm gonna use the word {semkye}--there's three
{semkye's} which is translated as Bodhichitta--and {semkye} means that the
wish--for enlightenment--so there's three wishes for enlightenment--two of them
are not real - are not total enlightenment--they're just called enlightenment--

[student: but when at the beginning of teachings on this they say you know--
before you hear this teaching you should develop bodhichitta, the [unclear]
motivation [unclear] Mahayana Bodhichitta]

that's that's always Mahayana Bodhichitta and they should have said that--but
but they don't--a lot of people don't understand the difference--and I wouldn't
use the word Bodhichitta very easily, I would call it {semkye} okay - Bodhichitta's
{chang sem}--it's a little bit different--don't worry about it, just be aware that
there's three wishes for enlightenment two of them are not the wish for total
enlightenment--and that's why we have to say 'Greater Way's wish for
enlightenment-Mahayana's wish for enlightenment'- okay we've gotta go on or
we'll never finish this definition--first it is main mental awareness--it is main
mental awareness--alright--we're on page 2 of the English but its awareness is
very easy - okay? We can all agree on that? Or not?

[student: I have a question for you, excuse me--]

it is awareness--it's consciousness - it's not the mental function - so is everyone
comfortable with that - Bodhi mind--Buddhahood mind--it's the same as - when
you wake up out of a deep sleep and suddenly you're aware-are you
comfortable with that?

[student: it's like the human being awareness that we have when we wake up
and we see our room?]

yeah, yeah--raw consciousness, without any details--the fact that you are aware

[student: and what was that defined?]

this is now--we're into what is Bodhichitta--what are the qualities of Bodhichitta--
the first qualitiy that I'm mentioning is awareness--I'm talking about the word
'awareness'

[student: what you're talking about is specific kind of raw--

yeah

[student: --awareness as opposed to a general raw awareness that what he
has?--]

no--what I'm saying is that--if someone knocked you out and then they put
smelling salt in your nose and suddenly you--the whole world came back to you
this whole [unclear]--this whole awareness--the general fact that you know--the
general--you're not [unclear]--it's difficult for you to recognize that-the fact that
you're conscious as opposed to--dead [laughs] [laughter]--no I'm serious

[student: I understand that part--I understand that part...]

just listen-- wait, let me finish--that consciousness, that raw consciousness--

[student: yeah--]
Bodhichitta is that kind of consciousness--and not the kind of thing where you:
'oh I love him...'--not, not that specific state of mind where you say 'I love this
person--'

[student: so not a mental function--]

it's not a mental function--it is the mind itself--you don't have a problem with
that?--you're not going to debate me on that??

[student: is it the nature of the mind?]



no--it is, it is the fact that you--

[student: [unclear]]

you have any mind--it's your main mind--as opposed to this: 'I'm jealous of
him...I'm angry at him...

[student: no, no--]

I wonder what the light is made of--you know--

[student: but I think, I think that you--

it's just the fact that you're aware

[student: you're talking about two different things...that awareness that you're
told about that comes with the smelling salt--is common to all beings--]

I'm saying that! I'm saying that--



[student: right--

[student: [unclear] Greater Way--]

student: --so so how do you distinguish between me and that between
somebody of a Greater Way?]
We got, we got two more paragraphs to go-okay [laugh]

[students: [unclear]

do you, do you-what I'm saying is do you feel comfortable me explaining
Bodhichitta as your main mind--not, not the mental function--

[student: yes--

not love, not a wish,

student: --it's a natural]

not a desire, not an aspiration--it's just the fact that you're aware?

[student: well, obviously your [unclear]

[student: not yet, no]

student: is being transformed once you've achieved it--]

no you're still aware of other stuff too

[student: well--you're...]

[student: so you're saying, once you're aware you have the wish for
enlightenment?]

now that's better, now I should get a debate like this [laughs]

[student: [unclear] you say the wish for enlightenment should be like that
[unclear]]

no--we're gonna just, we're gonna give it other adjectives, we're gonna call it
more stuff-but I'm saying is the basic state of mind, is not like a wish, it's not like
a love, it's not like a desire, it's not like an aspiration, it's just raw consciousness--
you feel comfortable with that? You're not going to debate me with that?

[student: no--]
[student: well it sounds like we should--]

I have a lot of trouble with that [laughs] [laughter]-- Atisha had trouble with it,
and Atisha didn't accept it

[student: na-I think I don't have trouble with with what I think you're getting at-I
have trouble with I think the way you're presenting it.]

It's a difficult point--

[student: If you're trying to make a comparison between the raw, basic
consciousness that any being has when it's not knocked out by Mike Tyson, if
that's what you're talking about--that--]

Unqualified? No.

[student --that seems to me to be, that seems to me to be common to all beings,
Buddhas or--cockaroaches--]

Accepted-but what I'm saying is--

[student: now that--that's the basis--

Listen listen

[student: then on top of that--]

no--on top of that we're gonna add many characteristics

[student: yeah?...]

but but you don't feel uncomfortable with thinking that it's a specific love, or
specific kind of feeling or specific kind of--

[student: no - no I don't feel it--no no]

it's just that it's raw con--[unclear]

[student: [unclear]--if something is permeated something then that's the way it's
gonna be-if something is you know-is completely imbued? if that's the word I'm
looking for? Then, then that's the way it is--]

Well you can be imbued with other attitudes that are mental functions--

[student: well yeah if you're not imbued with the attitude of the Greater Way-
you[unclear] got bodhi mind--]

Okay, well, anyway there was big fight about it in

[student: it's supposed to be natural, it's not supposed to be mental functions, it's
supposed to be something where it's like-it's it's just it exists--there is not a
mental function--it's its own--[unclear] fear--and it's some sort of]

[student: --fact of nature almost--]

well--let me put it to you like [unclear]

[student: when I wake up in the morning I see my room and I, and I--and then
without any effort I am aware--but I am aware of myself as a human being on
planet earth etc.--now if you're trying to say that for the people who really have
this Bodhichitta the same thing happens to them--when they wake up they look,
they know, that they have Bodhichitta and that everything is like that, when
they look at it--then that's no problem--]

[student: --that's what it is--isn't that what it is?]

[student: but what you're trying to say is is that that that basic awareness itself--]

Unqualified, is Bodhichitta. No I would never say that--that's not what I'm saying
at all-I mean that's simple

[student: okay--because for the human being they are human--that basic
awareness manifests itself as being a human--[unclear] Bodhichitta being--]

No--I'm not saying that--there's two--there's many more words here--every
word here has a special function--

[student: what did you just say...?]
I'm saying it's main mind, according to [unclear], according to our own system-
and it was a bitter fight--I mean--the

[student: what's the right answer?]

[laughs] the current--the Buddhist belief is that it's main mind. The reason it's
main mind--the reason it's raw consciousness--is not anything that you said--I
understand what you're saying--you're saying that Bodhichitta is such a high
state that it should 'imbue my mind the way that my consciousness currently
imbues my mind'--it's not the reason given in the books--the reason given in the
books is--you have two--one of the reasons given in the books is that you have--
you have two desires at that moment--what are they? When you get
Bodhichitta-true Bodhichitta, you have two desires, you have two aspirations--

[students: to help other, to achieve enlightenment--]

you wanna help others, and you want to become a Buddha, okay?

[students: yeah...]

If--and the explanation that I've heard that I like the best-is that--according to
Buddhism you can't focus on two objects at the same time-a normal person--a
Buddha can--when you're looking at my nose's color you can't focus on my ear's
color--specifically - impossible--when you're having anger you can't have at the
same moment another state of mind--they can come so fast that you think
they're one and in Buddhism they say that's like lining up rose petals on a target
and shooting an arrow at it--and as it passes through each petal-tche-tche-tche-
tche-tche, it looks like it [unclear] you know it looks like it went all at once but
actually--if you think about it-they are milli-seconds of you're mind--they
appear-- appears that you can have anger and love and something within a short
period of time but Buddhism says now that's an illusion--it's happening so fast
that it seems to be one thing but it's not - it's really separate states of mind
coming up - so it's impossible to have those two mental functions at the same
time--you have to speak in terms of the mind which contains those two mental
functions-you have to speak in terms of the main mind which is coming along
with those two mental functions--think if the main mind as this big guy who has
two arms - okay? there has to be main mind to have these two arms--you can't
have these two arms. You can't have these two arms floating around on their
own, there has to be a mind that possess these two wishes. Cause otherwise you
just have two wishes floating out there on their own--so there has to be a main
mind--and that's the position - that's why you have to posit it as a main mind.

[student: so [unclear] main mind in tandem with the two [unclear]]

yeah--yeah, and in tandem is a beautiful for what I just--what I want to mention
next--okay? It's the idea of matching--matching--it's main mind matched with
those two desires. What do we mean, 'matched'? Uh, we'll study it in the [b:
Abidharmakosha], but 'matched' basically means: "in five ways they are--what
did you use?--'in tandem'--they are working in tandem in five ways--and that's
true; for you to have jealousy you have to be aware, right? I mean, awareness is
the mothermind, and then jealousy is one the little things going on in the mind.
You say I have jealousy in my thoughts, so that--in the thoughts means in the
mind, in the main mind--so you have to have a main mind to hold the two
desires--otherwise bodhichitta would be two desires. So you have to speak in
terms of a main mind that has the two desires. How does it have them?--

[student: [unclear] would be two different mental functions--]

yeah bodhichitta would be always plural--

[student: --right]

so, the ways in which the mind and the mental functions--did I lose you guys?
[laughs]--it's awful quiet [laughs]

[student: So this [unclear] main mind as there are what--[unclear]--how many
different kinds of main minds are there?]

only one--oh I'm sorry, six--

[student: Six--for the six [unclear]]

but I don't want to get into it--no--

[students: we'll study it [unclear]--can you tell us what we should be writing-
cause I [laughter] just-- [unclear]]

okay, I want to be at the end of this class, what I'd like you to know, and what
you're homework is, if I ask you why is it Greater's Way--why do we have to say
'Mahayana Bodhichitta'--why?--
[student: okay--]

why? why do I have to say: 'I'm gonna talk tonight about Mahayana
Bodhichitta?' Why?

[student: because some people--]

there's two other kinds of Bodhichitta--

[student: because--according to some other people - there two other kind of
Buddhahood--

right…

[student: and the mind that--

right--

[student: aspires to those Buddhahoods, or Enlightenments is also by them
referred to as Bodhichitta so we don't want to--]

confuse

[student: --confuse, what we consider to be actual bodhichitta with their
somewhat lesser version--]

okay that's alright--that's--that's

[student: Bu that's not a positive presentation of what Mahayana Bodhichitta is--]

no it's not--but it's correct

[student--but it's not…]

it's why we put the word Mahayana in there…we'll get to yours later--it's
coming--okay Linn, my second question is to you--why--why does Bodhichitta
have to be the main m--your raw awareness? Why don't we just call it the desire
for Buddhahood, the wish for Buddhahood? Why does it have to be your
consciousness?
[student, Linn: oh Mahayana Bodhichitta--]
yeah, I said I'm not going to repeat it--

[student: I don't even understand the question--]

okay--

[student: I'm lost, I'm totally lost--]

let's say, you feel, you feel love for someone right?

[student: okay]

They're two state of mind going on--they're two mental events going on--one is
that you're conscious, if you weren't--if I knocked you out and said 'do you still
love the guy?' [laughs]

[student: mmhmm-right]

you can't feel love if your main mind is shut down. If your main mind is
running, then you can have an emotion inside of the main mind, okay?

[student: okay]

so so my next question is, do you think that the desire to help--to achieve
Buddhahood for all others is--a--that main mind, or is a feeling in the main mind?

[student: it's a feeling in the main mind--]

it's actually two feelings--it's the feeling that I want to become a Buddha and it's
the feeling that I want to help other people--and it's for that reason we have to
call it 'the main mind'--cause something has to hold those two thoughts at the
same time.

[students: You can have them at the same time--
      ; you can't--]

not technically [laughs] okay? Think of it as the place to put the two thoughts--
you have to be aware before you can love with your mind. If I knock you out--
forget having love--

[student: right, there's nothing--to love--it's--[unclear]]

so, bodhichitta is a main mind--

[student: there's a whole bunch of other thoughts too--you just [unclear] have
two of them--

there's feeling going on and there's awareness--are you okay?

[student: but love is a mental function--]

are you okay, are you alright?

[student: yeah…]

sure?
[student: yeah…of course--[unclear]]

Sure. No yeah, and when they say, no --didn't you ever wonder when they said
bodhi mind--Buddha mind--you say, 'I've only got an English [unclear]--you say
I've only got one mind, what are you talking about, they say the mind that
wants Enlightenment, you say Enlightenment mind--you know I've got one
mind it's a bad translation, you know Tibetans are always saying mind when you
would'a say thought. Because how many minds you have?

[student: on mind!]

one mind!--I mean in English mind means the one--the main mind

[student: mind--]

so I--maybe Linn, you can call the difference this, I'm asking you this--is
bodhichitta your mind? or is bodhichitta some thoughts in you mind? that's a
good way to put it--

[student: that's much easier--]

let's stick to that--[laughter]
[student: it's--

this is a real important point--

[student: --it's [unclear] some thoughts in your mind--it's both--it's your mind
and it's the thoughts that your mind has--]

not a bad answer, okay--I bet most people would say it's the thoughts--okay?
right?

[student: --so the second, the thoughts within your mind--]

yeah, and what Buddhism says--what the Buddhist meditators say is 'don't think
that way'--it is your mind--

[student: [unclear] the thoughts--]

that has the two thoughts

[student: merged in one--]

[student: it's the mind--]

with the two thoughts, in it--

[student: it has the pos--it has the, uh--[unclear]]

[student: is both the mind and the two thoughts in the mind--]

no it's the mind that has the two thoughts--

[student: it's the mind that--it's the mind that has the power to even have
[unclear]]

[student: is jealousy a thought?--it's a mental function--[unclear]

jealousy's a thought

[student: - [unclear] real mind--so-it's closer to mind than it is to a mental
function--]

[student: maybe you mean--do mean the mind that is capable of having those
two those thoughts? is that an easier way to put it--]

no no no, I'll ask again--is is Bodhichitta-which is--which consists of two, two
thoughts--right? I want to help people and I want to become a Buddha so I can
help people--

[student: right--]

is it a thought? Or is it the mind that has those thoughts?

[student: it's the thoughts--]

it's the thoughts! it really is the thoughts--and Atisha held that view--and others
and Maitreya did not--Maitryea says, 'it's your mind…' now why?

[student: it's your mind with or without those thoughts?]

no--good point! it's your mind when it has those two thoughts--

[student: that's what I [unclear]-]

[student: but how can your mind have two thoughts?]

oh your mind has thoughts all the time, no?

[students: no two thoughts--

at the same time--

it's fluctuating, it's alternating between the two--

it's not focusing-- not one thing--

otherwise it's the rose petal analogy--]

yeah you can say it's fluctuating between those two--alternating so quickly, that
you can't tell the difference--
[student: well, wait a minute--why don't we form a - what if you say--well okay,
let's say that the other the thought was fear or jealousy--]

yeah

[student: would that be described as mind?]

see, yeah you want to know whether that's mind or thought? It's accepted by
everyone as being a thought--

[student: --a thought--okay so this is the only exception--]

yeah--and it's very important--that's why they call it Buddha mind--that's why
they call it 'chitta' - chitta means mind -chitta means main mind -

[student: this is - this is the only exception to the thought which will--relies on
other thoughts like jealousy--

[student: --you can't--]

yeah--uh--[unclear] different point--it's it's--this is the only place, in Buddhism

[student: so why?--]

when attitude is described as your main mind--as your mind--

[students: and so why? why? why?]

--not as a thought inside your mind--you struggle with it - I mean-Maitreya said
so--that's--I mean in Buddhism we have to show two things, we have to say: "An
authority said it, and it makes sense…"

[student: why does it make sense?]

it's easier, the authority part [laughs]

[student: once you've achieved--]

[student: what's the authority part?]
Maitreya said it, Asanga said it and--Asanga said it in two places -

[student: maybe we have to go meditate on it--no really…]

mmm-there's apparently there's some importance to this question--Atisha felt
that it was not your mind--he thought is was a, he thought it was a thought in
your mind--Maitreya didn't say that - and the great commentators didn't say
that-

[student: but it has nothing to do with what I [unclear] more like--]

I believe--

[student: --a nature of the mind because it should be there just as ever-present as
any [unclear]--it has nothing to do with--?]

I've never seen it explained that way - no--I've never seen that--the expression--
explanation I've seen -

[student: so because the two]

are that it's two thoughts - so there has to be a mind has those two thoughts - to
have a one thing which is Buddhamind--

[student: so-is it also because once you have it you don't lose it?-- or--]

no you can lose it--

[student: you can lose it--]

yeah

[student: unclear]]

yeah - there's a famous story of someone who lost it--

[student: that has to do with the fact that you're, um - you're nature is a pure
nature?--]
no nothing to do with that--nothing to do…

[student: no?]

[student: is it possible that that's the only instance where the mind can
simultaneously have two thoughts? because of the nature of the thoughts?]

no

[student: you didn't say that they could simultaneously have two thoughts - we
said that it was alternating very quickly between the two--but does that mean
that it could dwell for a bit on one of them and then slowly alternate to the other
one [laughter} - is that considered the same? ]

I'll pass--

[student: or is the quality that it's [unclear] so quickly between the two that it
always seems to be--uh]

I'll pass on it--I'm not even sure that I should say that the-it can't have two at the
same time - and there's technical reason for that and I'm not gonna get into it--
one is a focus and one is a feeling--

[student: but --first didn't you say the definition of Mahayana Bodhichitta is
awareness or consciousness - NOT a mental function?]

right I did say that--

[student: it's the main mind--]

it's the main mind that has the --[unclear]

[students: that what [unclear] talkin about]

[student: even though two [unclear] don't occur simultaneously?]

uh I don't want to dwell on that -

[student: but that's your reason--as to why it's main mind--if they don't occur
simultaneously--[unclear]]
[stu=dent: But it's not awareness or consciousness--[unclear]]

right? [laughter]

[student: and so how do you process--I don't get it--]

No struggle with it, struggle with it--no--struggle with it, struggle with it--I mean
it's an important point--

[student: --but we are!] [laughter]

Maitreya--

[student: struggle with us please--]

Maitreya, Asanga, and another commentator, a famous commentator- I forget
his name

[student: we got no problem with people saying it's that way it's--we're trying to
understand why--]

No and I--apparently it's important--apparently it's very important - and I'm not
satisfied with explanations I've got -

[student: oh]

the best one's I've heard--the one that I like the best--is is that it- because it has
two thoughts, it it--you have to speak in terms of the whole which contains the
two--

[student: well if- let's say you forget the two thoughts then, right?--]

yeah

[student: let's just say there's one thought--let's say--]

there's not!

[student: well- no - wait wait wait--]
[student: well there is - but if there it's not Bodhichitta then]

[student: let's say the mind is only holding--]

let's say if were like anger,

[student: wait wait wait--]

holding what object?

[student: let's say the mind is holding one object--only the wish to be Buddha-]

right--

[student: --flickering alternating with slowly or fast

right

[student: --the desire to help other people okay?--The mind is still holding that
one thought--right-so if Bodhichitta were a thought and not main mind - it
couldn't even hold one thought-you see my point?]
well then anger would have to be main mind and not a mental function -

[student: say that again?]

then all--every other emotion would have to be main mind also -

[student: no - no

no because you [unclear] still have the two--that's pretty good

[student: the main mind is holding one thought - the main mind is holding the
anger]

okay - ah - I mean--

[student: Bodhichitta is the main mind holding the wish to become a Buddha--
you see what I mean?
Okay - I don't mind - that's sounds [unclear]

[student: I think we've gotten back to the original question I had then - because--
isn't implied in Buddhahood itself 'for the sake of others'? I mean--there is no
Buddha without 'for the sake of others'--so to achieve Buddhahood for the sake
of others--

there's two--

[student: --is a redundancy, right? or are there Buddhas out there who have
achieved their - [unclear] without being for the sake of others--]

no it's not saying achieved - it's saying aspiring to achieve--for the sake of others

[student: --for the purpose of--

you can aspire to achieve for some - for some selfish reason - you would never
get it - but you could aspire for another reason--

[student: but you would--but it would come full circle then - you would be
aspiring - to something which for the sake of others - so how could you not
aspire to it--for the sake of others - since it in and of itself - ]

how can people take robes for selfish reasons? - it's stated in the vinaya that you
do--that you can - that people have.

[students: [unclear]]

they say -- bad argument --

[student: no no no - the definition--people can misunderstand what Buddhahood
that's fine - that's not what I'm talkin about--]

by definition they're misunderstaning it -

[student: right - but are there Buddhas who exist for some reason other than the
for the sake of others--]

no - obviously no -
[student: no! - so then that's a redundancy--]

[unclear] people who aspire to it for other reasons -

[student: but then they don't know what they're aspiring to--]

are there people who aspire to it for other reasons?

[student: yes…]

yes…okay--fini

[student:   not to Buddhahood--they might think they're aspiring to
Buddhahood--]

[laughs] alright - so it's a main awareness - you struggle with - I have struggled
with it for about 15 years--

[student: but you gave us an answer though --]

I'll ask my lama again - he said well it's a different question and Atisha actually
didn't accept it [unclear] and I says well - and he says - okay [unclear] [laughter] -
[unclear] wiser than I am - uh - okay mental awareness - why do we have to say
mental awareness? Isn't it obviously a mental - are there any other kinds of
awareness - are there any other kinds of consciousness?

[student: yes--[unclear]]

yeah - the five sense consciousnesses - there are six awarenesses - there are six
consciousnesses - so who on earth is going to mistake Bodhichitta for awareness
of good smells in a restaurant? Or awareness of sweet sounds in a in a disco--
why isn't it - what did you say?

[end side one]

--superfluous--what's the other word? redundant--to say mental awareness - isn't
it obviously a mental awareness? Isn't obviously a thought and not a sensation of
a smell or something like that. Is there anybody who might have a similar
consciousness in his ear or something like that - or in his eyes - is that even
possible? Why are we bothering with saying mental? Who?
[cut]

that they see things is incomprehensible - it's inconceivable - okay? the Buddha
hears everything that was ever eaten in the universe - ever -

[student: with his nose…]

[student: through all his six sense?]

yeah yeah

[student: simultaneously…]

simultaneously

[student: simultaneously?]

he hears the warmth of every person touching every other person who ever did
and ever will - yeah it's a different kind of being -

[student: is this only Shakyamuni Buddha?]

No any Buddha--

[student: oh any Buddha--]

yeah - okay - so that is meant to exclude that possiblity -we're not talking about
the ear consciousness of a Buddha, which also fits most of the rest of the
definition. We want to make it mental.

[student: so he hears things that have been said and that will be said--]

I didn't say - I said he can smell everything that will ever be said - he can hear
everything that will ever be touched--

[student: oh - excuse me!]

[laughs] okay, he's different than us - and it's very, very difficult when you're in
the monastery--you've been through years of studying how the mind can work,
how the senses can work, how senses have to be object specific, and then you
get to eighth chapter of this book and you throw it all out the window [laughs]
you know, okay - yeah?

[student: what happens to the main mind when it's not occupied with
Bodhichitta? Does the main mind become something else?]

It can have other thoughts--yeah

[student: so then Bodhichitta is a thought within the main mind?]

Phoo! Now you're getting into this [unclear] - I accept the viewpoint of Maitreya
- it's the main mind which has the two thoughts - the two - you should be asking
me: 'when I perceive emptiness directly, and I cannot frame a thought - do I lose
my Bodhichitta for my period of meditation?

[student: yeah in a way - it's still in your mental continuum]

and they say, no--you can--

[student: [unclear] Maitreya says no that one- [unclear]]

[student: so it has to be permeating [unclear] your mind--]

[unclear] what character is it? so at that moment it exists in the mind and it's not--

[student: not a thought--]

it's not present in the mind, it's a big debate--

[student: well maybe it's present in the mind in some other form than a
thought--]
[unclear] do you--cause if you've ever been-when you go through that - when
you go through that experience of perceiving emptiness directly - you will see -
you can't even be aware that you're having it - you don't think to your- you're -
I'm sorry --you're aware that you're having it - but you're not - you don't think:
'Linn is perceiving emptiness; I'm perceiving emptiness'--you can't think that
during that deep perception of emptiness - so if you can't think that how can you
have a wish - 'oh I wish I could help all sentient beings'--you know?
[student: cause there's no 'I']

you can't even perceive yourself at that moment--so do you lose your
Bodhichitta for that period - and does a Bodhisattava the day after he gets
Bodhichitta - I mean when he's eating when he's in the road - when somebody's
about to run over him -a taxi - does he - does he ever think about something else
you know and does he lose Bodhichitta for 10 seconds - and they say 'no' - it's
{semba} it's im - it's permeates its mind -

[student: if it's permeating his mind - then it's not his mind--]

yeah - right? - difficult -

[student: what is it that permeates his mind?]

good - good point - Bodhichitta -

[student: Bodhichitta]

yeah - which is the mind [laughter]

[students: --the main mind; [unclear]]

No, I didn't like it as an argument--I've never seen it as a justification for why it's
main mind, is what I'm saying - I don't believe there's any such presentation -
[unclear] in my knowledge…okay - focused on achieving total enlightenment.
Why they say total?

[student: for those who don't really understand what enlightenment is--]

no cause there's these two - there's these two so-called enlightenments - which
are not enlightenments -

[student: that doesn't make it any less real - they're all real [unclear]]

okay - that's why we have to say total enlightenment - there are enlightenments
which are not total - and didn't you always wonder about it? You know, I always
did - I always said - why did they say, purely total enlightenment? I mean
enlightenment's enlightenment - I'm enlightened or not enlightened- you can't
have half enlightened…
[student: there are enlightenments that are not total - where there's only one
enlightenment and to distinguish it between would be enlightenments - it's called
total - which is it?]

second one, it's the second one

[student: it's the second one, there is only one enlightenment--?]

it's a beautiful debate - it's an important subject - it comes in this book, it's called:
{tartuk tekpa chikpa drukpa}--and it means, the big debate is, are there three
tracks?

[student: or is it just the one big track, broken into three sections--]

it's one big track, give me a break! they have to go up to here, they have to go
up to here, there's only one track--

[student: they have to--they can't --[unclear]they can't permanently--]

they always will - they always do -

[student: and why is that?]

long story…{tartuk tekpa chikpa drukpa} there's a--

[student: is it universally held, that they all do?]

no, different Buddhist schools have different views

[student: but you can stay for a very long time, right?

right--but in the end you must go to Buddhahood, in the end you must get
Bodhichitta--Mahayana Bodhichitta--

[students: I understand--[unclear]]

so the lam rim's saying: 'don't waste your time, why start with these lower
motivations?' you might as well start with Bodhichitta if you're gonna end up
there anyway.
[students: [unclear]…two enlightenments, two nirvanas are the same--even
though the paths to them are different--]

the reason the two--there is--I've never seen-or I can't remember any distinction
ever made between them - it's a long story I mean you could - if you want -

[student: yeah why don't you - why don't you uh more accurately draw one
nirvana with two with a 'Y' coming out of it - wouldn't that be much better?

nah--

[student: or are you a little chicken about that then?]

okay next - we go one more and then we have a break--

[student: thanks…]

[laughs] by the way I repeat - if you weren't learning anything - you know if
were easy--you wouldn't be learning too much - it's hard, it's hard--I told you in
the last class that you're gonna get - you get the baby presentation of those three
principle paths - and the rest of five years is just in more detail of those [unclear]
principle paths - and that's what you're getting now -

[student: but I didn't know it was going to be more confusing--]
[laughs] it is confusing--this point is difficult, and I, I--it's difficult for me and that's
why you're confused - and I--there's no clearer debate on it in the monastery--
you've got Atisha against Maitreya, I mean - who are we?! [laughter]

[student: selfless is difficult enough [unclear]]

--it's difficult - it's difficult it's difficult- they're both enlightened beings - they
probably wanted us [unclear] to come up with some realizations about it-

[student: if this even a significant--]

[unclear] as she says--as Carolyn said…

[student: is this even a significant point or are we just debating--]
don't think it's not--

[student: --oh please--]

don't think it's not - the exercise of debating seemingly insignificant points is
what makes your knowledge of the significant points firm…

[student: it's practice--]

yeah--and it's the fact that your--I even use insignificant points, rather than
watching TV - you see

[student: it's mind training--]

spending time this way--is keeping you close to the dharma - and that's one
function of debating things--that--okay - I mean you're never gonna sit there in
your next retreat and worry 'oh my god is this love for other people my main
mind or --'

[student: [unclear]three Bodhichittas--[laughter]

but if you study the three Bodhichittas, the three Enlightenments, means you
gotta be forced to ask the questions that they've asked: 'what's the difference
between these nirvanas?' and I'm gonna say what's the difference in what they
think emptiness is? And the study of what - the study of the wrong ideas of
emptiness is the best way to perceive emptiness, and in fact the first Panchen
Lama became the first Panchen Lama because he he was a master at that - he
wrote a whole book about it--

[student: what emptiness isn't?]

what emptiness isn't - and he's got a beautiful book - and someone should
translate it some day - there's a devil over here and an angel over here, and the
devil says, 'oh, emptiness is nothingness! yeah - [unclear] you know - just
[unclear]; and the angel says, 'no no I mean, anyone can see that - when you get
knocked on the head you see that - that's not - that's not what emptiness is…
And then the devil says, 'you're right, you're right--oh emptiness is ah…'--and
they--and they--it's a long book - we studied it - we studied--

[student: I remember--]
it for like a year--and it gets and it gets more and more and more fine and at the
end you swear to god the devil is right - because it sounds so good - it sounds
like what you've heard in all the dharma lectures you went to -- and then the
angel says, 'no, not quite--there's a little bit of problem here--' and the devil also -
it's a - he's also - not only ego grasping - he's describing egotism also - he says
'c'mon taking care of yourself - I'm the one who took care of you all these years -
you know worry about John - is really the best - I mean if you don't worry about
him who's going worry about him?' There's this Hebrew expression they used to
teach me -

[student: yes--]

you know - if you don't worry about yourself - then who's going to worry about
yourself? It's actually not the full expression--

[student: 'if not now when--']

yeah--nah - in the full expression is well, 'God give me the strength not to worry
about myself--' there's more to that saying--

[student: oh - I never heard that--]

but people only quote the first half [laughter]

[student: [unclear] the rest of it is, when it's wrong I correct it…]



okay so anyway - it doesn't hurt--what'll happen is you'll forget all these details
but because you debated the details you will always remember the main two
points--

[student: and furthermore you can't get to Buddhahood without getting through
this anyway--sooner or later--right? --]

yea--aiy--

[student: and Maitreya and Asanga would not have referred to it otherwise--]

well, they spent time debating it so it must be important--okay--
[student: well we can't just skip over this understanding it - jump right over
that--]

okay so total enlightenment--how about 'for the benefit of others?'--

[student: it seems--]

why is that necessary?

[student: it still seems to me that all of this--that all of these are caveats - meaning
that--it's more like]

so Kylie, so Kylie - what you're saying is that no one aspires to enlightenment-
not for the purpose of others?

[student: no I think, I think - I wrote down maybe an easier way to say it - the
wish for total enlightenment, with the correct understanding of what that total
enlightenment entails--]

you cannot perceive correctly what total enlightenment is until you reach it--
period. And that's a debate we have--

[student: right - but it it seems that--]

so everyone - so according to you - you can't have Bodhichitta until you become
a Buddha [laughs]

[student: no no the point is--]

seriously--

[student: the point is, of all the multitudinal dimensions of enlightenment -
apparently for beings like us - the most important one- or one of the most
important one's to keep in mind is the quality of it that it is for the benefit of all
beings because it's present in the aspiration and it's also present in the result--]

okay which leads me to a little side point - why are we studying Bodhichitta and
why do we study refuge? What is the order of this book? Who's deciding the
order of this book?
[student: Is that the three paths?--of Buddhahood…]

I haven't told you about the structure of the [b: Ornament], and I'm not going to
tonight [laughs] [laughter]--but I'll tell you briefly - we are discussing the
qualities which typify a Buddha--there are ten - and that's why we got into
refuge and that's why we're into Bodhichitta now. It's all with reference to a fully
enlightened being--these are--

[student: and that's not the same as the qualities of--like on [unclear]
spontaneous--

no - no these are ten qualities that are typical of Buddhas, and that's how the
Prajnaparamitas start their discussion of emp- of-of refuge and how they're
discussed there start their discussion of Bodhi--that's why we're talking about
these subjects in this order - just so you know - okay - these relate to the ten
qualities of a Buddha…So for the benefit of others, why do we have to put that
in definition? --Why is that necessary?

[student: I--I would think it's to keep people's eye on the ball--]

it's very simple, much simpler--it's to- it's to

[student: [unclear] Mahayana]

it's to block these other two kinds of wish for enlightenment. These are wishes
for enlightenment - but they're for lower enlightenment, they're not for full
enlightenment - we have to say it because they are two other kinds of wishes for
enlightenment that are selfish -

[student: I thought we said a little earlier that real enlightenment is 'Buddhahood'
- and these other things are would-be enlightenments--]
No they're enlightenment--they're one of the Three Enlightenments--what are
you talking about?

[student: [unclear] instead--higher nirvana and lower nirvana--]

they're enlightenments - Three Enlightenment! What are you--

[student: yeah I know but [unclear] have problems with the word
'enlightenment' [unclear]]
what hat you got on? what hat are you wearing?

[student: I'm wearing - well--]

no when you're in the Svatantrika you've gotta go Svantantrika--you can't fool
around--we believe in three enlightenments--and Mahayana - you have to define
Mahayana Bodhichitta this way - to block those lower wishes for enlightenment -
period. Don't get mixed up with Persangika--

[student: well wait a minute though--

they accept a lot of weird stuff--

[student: Svantantrika wouldn't say - wouldn't have this up there - would they?]

sure they would

[students: sure they would; that's their definition]

that's their presentation--

[student: are these definitions Svatantrika definitions?]

sure, we are Svatantrika for the next six weeks--

[student: we are now Svatantrika?]

yup--

[student: thank you…]

[student: what's Svatantrika?]

Lower Madhyamika school--

[student: this [unclear] the beginning of the class--]

[student: Svatantrika doesn't mean--according to me but it's not correct--
Svatantrika--]
[laughs] The Persangikas don't accept it - [unclear]

[student: the bottom lines is that - we say the three because we're wrong - but
we don't know it--]

nnnhhh--
[student: [laughs] [unclear]]

by the way, Kylie--that is a separate subject, it's called {unclear} which is 'why did
the Buddha ever teach any--' this is all Buddha's speech--Buddha taught this--

[student: sure--]

right --ahh - I think we'll take a break there okay - so -then we'll talk about
[unclear] take a short break - okay - come back in ten minutes

[cut]

is equivalent to when the Buddha said, 'kill your father, kill your mother…'--it's
not true--you have to interpret it -

[student: can I clarify--before the first thing you said was - the definition of
Mahayana Bodhichitta - it is the awareness or consciousness, not a mental
function--a mental function is like the feelings the thoughts, right? It's main mind
- then you had said to me is Bodhichitta the thought?--So are you are you
differentiating between Bodhichitta and Mahay--]

no no that's not the point

[student: so you're still saying Mahayana Bodhichitta -

Bodhichitta is the main mind that has the thoughts--you have to say it that way -
you have to write it that way - Bodhichitta is the main mind that has those two
thoughts--

[student: but then before you said but is it the main mind that has those two
thoughts or is it the thoughts? And when I said the thoughts - you said, 'yes'
that's right--]
No, that's not correct -

[student: main mind and the thoughts…]

it's main mind that has the two thoughts

[student: is the main…]

that possesses the two thoughts

[student: it has to be a main mind--

[student: alternate]

[student: to contain the two thoughts--therefore it couldn't exist in the mind with
the thoughts]

that's the best argument I've ever heard

[student: say that again--]

[students: [unclear] in order to help…you see see--excuse me?]

[student: If it weren't the main mind it couldn't hold the thought

thank you

[student--so when you had a thought you would lose your Bodhichitta - if the
Bodhichitta wasn't main mind--]

[student: that's it Michael, when I think of it in terms of Buddhahood it's sort of--
[unclear]]

[student: okay, that--thank you--]

[student: you see what I mean?--]

[student: yeah I do…thank you…]

[cut]
please don't write anything--this weeks--

[student: yeah could you pass those out?]

I just want you to listen--just listen and we'll finish on time--we can finish on time
-- the first question is: 'Give the whole definition' which is on page two--you just
gotta write it out--and I'll tell you why--you don't have to memorize it - I just
want you to go through the exercise in writing it out because the next questions
are gonna be- you're gonna have to be looking at the definition to answer the
rest of the questions - okay question number two - 'What thing is not this wish
for enlightenment, but might be confused with this wish for enlightenment if we
left the word 'main' out of the definition?' Like if I didn't say 'main mind'--if I just
said it's the thought that you'd like to have enlightenment - what might be the
confusion?

[student: between the mind that's having the thoughts and the thoughts?--]

no

[student: between Mahayana and Bodhichitta?]

Why does Maitreya have to put mind in the definition--main main?

[student: because there were two types--right?]

[student: because [unclear] it's two thoughts, and you can't have two thoughts at
once--]

yeah- I mean - the thing that people might confuse is that the-that one of those
thoughts is itself Bodhichitta - that's why he has to say, 'The mind which holds
those two thoughts' - That's why he has to say 'main'--why did he put 'main' in
there? He's trying to prevent you from thinking it's only one or two of those
thoughts--it's both of the thoughts together--you can't have two thoughts
together - so it's the mind that's holding those two thoughts together. So the
word 'main' is meant to prevent someone from thinking that Bodhichitta is a
wish.

[student: you really don't want us to write anything?]
well I think [unclear] are…[laughs]

[student: everyone else is--]

I don't mind, go ahead write - make yourself notes, but don't get distracted--
cause otherwise [unclear]

[student: could you repeat yourself--]

yeah, the reason we put the word 'main' in the definition, is that we don't want
people to think that just one of those thoughts could be Bodhichitta, it's not, it's
both of the thoughts together - it's the mind that's holding both of the thoughts
together. That's we have to say 'main mind.' What translation do I use for
Bodhichitta? What was it in that book?

[student: which book?]

The Tsong Khapa book--

[student: oh - you use the simple one--]

the wish for enlightenment! okay - is Bodhichitta a wish? A wish?

[students: two wishes--]

it's two wishes! So you can't call some thing--two things--so we call it the main
mind that has those two wishes--and that's why we have to say main--it's really
two wishes--

[student: isn't it the cohesion of those two wishes?]

which is impossible so you have to say 'the mind that has those two wishes…' It's
the mind that has those two objects

[student: [unclear]]

[laughs]

[student: no, 'cohesion' means that something that connects two things--]
I understand--okay - number three, 'What thing is not this wish, but might be
confused with it if we left out the word 'mental awareness'?' Is there any such
thing as any other kind of awareness--

[students: yeah the Buddha--[unclear]]

the Buddha's sensory consciousnesses--

[students: [unclear] you interrupted Michael…]

What thing is not this wish for enlightenment--it's not Bodhichitta, but might be
confused with it if we didn't say the word, 'mental' in the definition--okay?
'mental' awareness--

[student: before you said let's say you hear with your--no--you hear--]

Toe! The Buddha hears with his Toe!
[student: right right so you can interchange like there's no ear and feel--and
okay--interchange - ]

yeah, the Buddha

[student: but it's not gonna be the same sense--]

The Buddha hears everything in the universe - that ever happened, and that ever
will happen with his toe

[student: could he feel so with his--I don't know--eyes?

yeah yeah, he feels warmth with this eyes -

[student: so it's not the Buddhas sensory consciousness it's the reason we--]

right--right that's why we say mental - and this is how I want to handle these
definitions - cause if you understand why each word is there then you
understand the definition--and in fact that's pretty much what we spend our time
debating in the monastery--why is it call 'mental' awareness? Because we want to
say it's not those Buddha senso--does a Buddha sense awareness have
Bodhichitta?
[students: yeah--]

It has love right? It has that ultimate love, it's not Bodhichitta - it's not mental --
okay--and that why we didn't - and that's why we have to put in the word
mental--

[student: because--I'm sorry I didn't get that--]

That's why you have to put in the word mental--

[student: You mean the Buddha can't have Bodhichitta with his nose?]

Apparently not--

[student: He'd be aware of nice feelings but [unclear]]

He can know all things with every [unclear] object--he can know all things--

[student: so Bodhichitta can only be achieved through a ment--[unclear]--]

No - I - doesn--I think we can have a good debate, I mean I'll ask my lama - I'll
debate him - I'll say, 'If the nose of the Buddha can perceive emptiness which it
can--the Buddha can perceive emptiness by smelling--then by can't it have
[unclear]

[student: ask it again--]

[student: mental why is it mental

[student: it has to do with the Buddha sensory consciousness--but I --you should
ask--]

[student: Michael, could you say that again?]

{student: why doesn't he have [unclear] bodhichitta [unclear]?]
Alright, Buddha already does have [unclear}

[student: he's already there--]

well if he didn't have Bodhichitta-it wouldn't be Mahayana--
[student: could you say it one more time-just say the sentence--why is it mental?]

the reason we say mental awareness is that we don't want people to think that
the sensory awareness of the Buddha, which is extraordinary, could be
Bodhichitta--

[student: which could be anything else but--]

Looks like that--

[student: then why wouldn't you want the sensory awareness of the Buddha
[unclear]?]

[student: let's [unclear] number three]

Okay question, next question--'What would happen--what thing is not this wish
but might be confused with this it if we left out the words, 'belonging to the
Greater Way?' And I didn't tell you that yet, okay? In here it says--why do--why
do we have to say here, it is the main mental awareness that belongs to the
Buddha mind?

[student: [unclear] Mahayana Bodhichitta--]

Is there any--is there any love of this power-this looking to Buddhahood for the
sake of all other beings, that's not Bodhichitta? That's not Mahayana Bodhichitta?
Is there anything focused to this for all sentient beings, that's not Mahayana?
There is--there is--I have to teach you something

[students: there is? oh no…]

there's a little place right [laughter]

[student: just before it, 'that which produces Mahayana?']

Yup.

[student: Which is really Mahayana in this sort of a prenatal state, right?]

It's called…
[student: 'Nascent Bodhichitta'-- sugar?--]

[student: oh no - not the 'sugar cane bodhichitta'!]

[student: yes [unclear] finally-- comes and goes--]

Now that's goosebump enough for me--we're talking sugar cane Bodhichitta -
It's called {unclear--por shimkyi sem tabu semkye} okay--that's why--what was
the definition of Bodhichitta-from the first class - How do you know when
you've reached Mahayana - when you get?--

[student: when you think of others--]

When you get the genuine wish to become a Buddha for all other beings--this is
the one before 'genuine'--we said genuine in that definition - back in the summer

[student: isn't that akin to like renunciation when can think of nothing else other
than working for others - [unclear]

yeah yeah - that's genuine renunciation as opposed to goosbump - and there is a
pre-bodhichitta bodhichitta --that's not real bodhichitta and it's called, it's called
artificial bodhichitta - it's not the genuine bodhichitta,

[student: it's just [unclear] it?]

it tastes like bodhichitta - that's why we call it sugar cane bodhichitta--

[student: but what is the aspiration?]

did you--did you ever have sugar cane? You ought to call Anila, she's an expert
it's hollow on the inside--it tastes great on the outside - the skin, the tube, on the
inside it's not the real thing, but it really does taste a lot like bodhichitta--

[student: where does the - do these fall in the aspiration phase of generating
Bodhichitta?]

We'll talk about it next week--

[student: well what is it if it's not the real thing? If it's not--[unclear]]
Next class--it's a very strong feeling--that you have to kind of force yourself to
get, it still takes some effort for you to get yourself in the mood that you'd like to
achieve Buddhahood for all other--that's pretty much the realm that we are in if
you who you seem to be. We are--

[student: and this is a pre-requisite--]

oh yeah you have to have it

[student: it's an absolute pre-requisite--]

you will go through it - it's where you try to force yourself to like everybody
[laughter] no- and that's the first step -

[student: [unclear] you seen this bum and then you think oh he's a bum and then
you go no no really--[unclear]

yeah yeah, that's the first step, that's the first step, I mean actually this is
incredibly harder than that - this is much harder than that--but that's the baby to
this baby--

[student: right or somewhere along--]

and you can imagine that it's not spontaneous--it's not it's not truly heart felt it's a
little artificial you have to force yourself to feel that way--and that's that's sugar
cane bodhichitta -

[student: ao it's before it's [unclear]]

it's actually sugar cane skin bodhichitta but I'm not gonna[unclear]

[student: so so once it's spontaneous - then it's the real thing - that's the idea--]

Genuine means-yeah- what is the difference between genuine and sugar cane--I
was trying to think about it before I came in-- [laughs]

[student: a little bit of [unclear]]

[student: it's complete--[unclear]]
I'd say that it's heartfelt and not--there's a word that's used for sugar cane which
is called {tch¬ mong} which means uh - it's the difference between real cream
and those little cups and the milk dream - it's the word they use for that - it's the
word in Tibetan that they use for that - artificial - it's artificial - it's a - you can
only get it by trying to get it--

[student: so is that better? - ]

you can only get it by forcing yourself to have it

[student: but you sort of have--]

it's with effort and the other is effortless--the other is genuine - it's a genuine
feeling of love - you know you've had cases where you're trying to be nice to
somebody even when you [unclear] feel it - and in bodhichitta you really do feel
it -

[student: cause you intellectually understand that's how you should be--]

yeah the way you get there is that

[student: right]

but when it comes - when it comes, the first moment of achieving bodhichitta -
you have an incredible feeling of flowing out to people - and it's not a conceptual
thing at all - you have a feeling almost like a river coming out of you - and - for
other people - and then you have another feeling of vowing that you will- that
everything you do from now on will be for other people - okay the next
question is easy - so - by the way that's why we have to say 'belonging to the
Greater Way'--because there are wishes to achieve enlightenment, total
enlightenment - for the sake of others--blah blah blah--main mental
consciousness which are not on the Greater Way - they don't belong to the
Greater Way --the Greater Way starts here by the way--

[student: it's before--]

The Greater Way starts with achieving Bodhchitta, genuine Bodhichitta - [laughs]

[student: more accurately, the section of 'the' way and the 'only' way --]
yeah yeah yeah - okay okay they might not

[student: the ending section of the big way is called the Greater Way--]

okay - next one - 'What thing is not this wish but might be confused with it if we
left out the word 'total' - 'total enlightenment'?' Is there a wish for enlightenment?

[student: yeah}

yeah it's these two - it's these two lower wishes - you can say the wish for
enlightenment that a Self-made Buddha has, who is not self-made and not a
Buddha--or it could be the wish for enlightenment that [unclear] has - [unclear]?

[student: that was the next one - that self-made Buddha erroneously believes that
their wish for that which - what a Buddha is or says 'you know what it's
something like--]

No they just want Nirvana - not interested in that-that - they want a state where
their suffering is free--

[student: so they are actually talking about different kinds of enlightenment -
they recognize -]

it's called enlightenment--okay

[student: I mean everyone here is probably very interested in becoming a
Buddha and would enjoy feeling Nirvana but would just do that as froth at the
moment I guess so-]

it's considered an inefficient to the Mahayanas - so why mess around with these
two - let's [unclear]

[student: so since nobody here--you've persuaded us that we shouldn't stop
there - we should go for Buddhahood - ]

Actually you should just never start here--start here

[student: then how could anyone want to achieve something less than what was
there? I don't quite understand [unclear]--]
Oh very attractive, I mean very very attractive--actually you-you're motivation
right now is to feel good in this life, it's not - your not Buddhist yet--when you
have the motivation: 'At least I would like to stop my pain,' comes [unclear],
you've just - you've just like reached somewhere down here--you know--when
you truly see that this life is unsatisfactory, and you would like to stop this kind
of --it's called {den reb dun chepa}, "I would like to stop this kind of body and this
kind of sick mind--you've just reached the desire from [unlcear]--

[student: so that everybody goes through those phases - ]

uh, in a sense - in a sense, in some sense - you do get through the moti--it's why
we call it shared, you do share their motivation - in a sense--okay--the last
question is, 'What would-what thing is not this wish but might be confused with
it--if we left out the words: 'for the benefit of others'?'

[student: isn't that the same thing as you just said?--]

What thing is--looks like Bodhichitta but it's not Bodhichitta, if you don't, if you
don't have a concern for others?

[student: nirvana]

no, nirvana's a state--this is a--we're talkin' [unclear]-- it's a again, it's a again, so
it's those two

[students: again - those two wishes--]

yeah yeah,

[student: that's --I said that--]

yeah, it's again this wish to not do it for others--it's actually these two together -
these are not for others, they are for yourself--

[student: so everybody's [unclear] erroneously believes it's for others, so we
have to add that caveat in?

No this is the definition of Mahayana Bodhichitta--we're talkin the definition of
Mahayana Bodhichitta--
[student: Michael, we always talk about if I benefit the one self for the benefit of
others, you know, either one - what about if you have, you want to do it for the
benefit of some people but some people [unclear]--] [laughter]

[student: --you [unclear] fairly, right?]

[student: no no - I mean, even people you know- but really people who--some
people you have a hard time really feeling that for--]

I told you when I studied vinaya this last month where I--there's a beautiful part
in the vinaya--we have 253 vows , nuns have 364 vows - and when they - you
get to them and they say okay, 'I like 252 of them--but that one,' ' I can't keep it, I
have no intention of keeping it--it really doesn't fit me--if you have that thought
in your mind, as you take the vow, the vow doesn't form, in your being, you're
not a monk--you can wear the clothes the rest of your life and you're not a
monk--if you any thought in you mind --if you have any intention not to keep all
of them--and--it's the same answer, I think, you know there's like everybody on
the planet 'ex--cept…'--[laughs]--I don't believe you'd get Bodhichitta--it's not
bodhichitta--when you get the real--

[student: yeah, but what do you call that!?]

when you get that event, when that event happens to you, when you achieve
bodhichitta it's like a light which is going out from a center which is you--and it's
not touching you, it's only for others - you're just sending it out--and you have
the physical sensation of light going out to other people--

[student: but do you still like - I mean - I mean-I'm trying to figure it out -
because I try to apply and it really so difficult - you have to have compassion for
everybody - but sometimes it's very difficult to compassion for some people]

[student:--equanimity--]

[student: do you do you start like that--I mean--to build this, this -this um feeling
of bodhichitta--do you start like having for some people and then you work
your way for everybody? Or you just have one--]

Shantideva talks a lot about, you know when you're trying to achieve
Bodhichitta--to do it--what you can handle - don't do more than you can handle--
you know? Don't go out on the subway and say okay 'I love every bum on the
subway' and then try because you'll fail you'll--it'll collapse and you'll give up--
you'll give up Buddhism. Do you--start with the people that you're close to-

[student: you can handle--]

you have some bad feeling about and try to - and then you weren't here in the
first course - you do those seven steps - you do the seven [unclear]--okay I think
we [unclear] right?

[student: it's ten after--]

okay ten after - that's all the questions I'm [unclear] - so I'm going to do it one
more time - I'm going to go around - I'm going to ask each person - 'Why add
main to the definition?'

[student: Because it's, it's composed of the two wishes--]

Good--

[student: it's not just one thought--so the main--]

mind that contains those two thoughts--okay?

[student: right--]

so that's why--okay--Why does it have to be--Why do we have to say, 'mental?'
Isn't it obvious that it's always mental?

[student: no because it can be confused with a Buddha-does not-how do you say
- feel the same way that um- humans do -

right okay--

[student: --and so they have different sense - eh the Buddha may feel with other
senses as well--]

it's possible that there could be an ear consciousness that have a similar feeling
but it's not bodhichitta--okay - [unclear] 'Why should it belong to the Greater--
why do we have to say belong to the Greater Way? Isn't that obvious that it
always belongs to the Greater Way?

[student: no because of that oval circle before--[laughter]--]

right--cause you can have a very very similar emotion - you can have a very
very similar two emotions in one main mind-where you have the same-
everything is complete except it's not it's not spontaneous-it's not heartfelt - it's
somehow forced- okay? At the stage of sugar cane bodhichitta - uh - Why do we
say total, John?

[student: to qualify that it's the Buddhahood rather than the path of the Listeners
or Self-made Buddhas--]

yeah, the two lower enlightenments, you want the total enlightenment - and it
always, as I say again - I read this many many Buddhist scriptures - I was very
confused--I wondered why they say total enlightenment - enlightenment's
enlightenment - it's not there's two semi-enlightenments--

[student: is that called lower and upper nirvana? Is that what--]

It's called the nirvana of a Self-made Buddha - it's called a nirvana of a Listener,
but I I don't remember any distinction made between them, they are {unclear--
che pa}--they are the total cessation of all suffering--period

[student: no it's not between them it's between the nirvana that's achieved by the
lower paths--

oh between this and this?

[student: --and the nirvana that's achieved by - yeah--]

big difference - yeah - this--when you hit this you always get omniscience

[student: that's usually when you [unclear]]

[student: is that what you keep calling [unclear]?]

together with the end of your suffering--

[student: omniscience? what's that?]
together with the end of your suffering--these people just get the end of their
suffering--

[student: you usually don't say upper - you usually just say nirvana and lower-]

uh, Lynn why do we say 'for the benefit of others?'

[student, Lynn: because the two lower enlightenments don't include the benefit
of others--]

good, yeah, right--they're not interested - they are a wish for enlightenment -
they are {semkye} they are a wish for enlightenment - but they are not 'the' wish
for enlightenment cause they're not for others -

[student, Tom: and they are the wish for enlightenment which is sort of
bodhichitta but we can call it bodhichitta but we have to be careful of that--]

yeah, good, good, Tom wants me not to call it bodhichitta--and he wants me not
to call these enlightenment--and I suppose he doesn't want me call them Buddhas
or them to be called Self-made--and that's a valid point--but they do have
[unclear]

[student, Tom: no no you can call it - but I want you to distinguish between
which hat you're wearing and say, 'this is the erroneous version of
enlightenment' and now we're back in the Persangika School--]

[students: [unclear]-no it's different schools--it's relative]

[student, Tom: by our school--]

and I repeat--and I repeat- you have to learn monastic etiquette--when you're in
Svatantrika - you swear by Svatantrika - you defend the Svatantrika-you fight
for the Svatantrika-you have to get-it's not a bad thing-mentally get your self
into Svatantrika - become a Svatantrika for six weeks--it's it's not-it won't hurt -
okay? [laughs] it's--and then

[student: that would be easy if you can forget the [unclear] play that's happening
outside that play--]
when you get to Prasangika you'll be a fantastic Prasangika cause you'll
understand the Svatantrika - we believe that we must understand the Hinyana--
we spend a lot of time on the Hindu schools - we understand the Hindu schools
better than anybody in India still understand the Hindu schools [laughs] we
understand the Samkya school very very well - we spend years on it - we can
defend those schools too--and I suppose in this culture we'll have to learn - you
should learn Christianity--go to Bible class - learn it well - learn the beliefs - and
then you know it - then you understand what you believe better--this is the
exercise--and don't feel uncomfortable with it - learn it-learn to defend it you
know - it will make your later understanding much deeper--

[student: as opposed to what? to defend it against what?]

in your own mind!- why do you believe that emptiness is not three kinds? You
know what I mean? Is emptiness--I'll give you an example-Is the emptiness of
this book the fact that it that it doesn't not come from karma? Is that it's
emptiness?

[student: doesn't not come from karma - that it does come from karma--]

all all emptinesses are double negatives--the fact that it comes from karma is its
relative [unclear] -or is it?

[student: it's its dependent origination - ]

is this dependent origination that it comes from karma?

[student: yeah]

Kylie, Prasangika?

[student, Kylie: pardon me?]

Is the book's dependent origination the fact that it comes from karma?

[student, Kylie: the dependent origination of the book in the Prasangika school
is--]

yes or no?
[student, Kylie: --is that it comes from your perception of it--which is influenced
by karma--]

so is it or isn't it? Is it's dependent origination the fact that it comes from karma?

[student, Kylie: it's the fact that it comes from your perception of it--that's it's--]

good - it's not - it's not the fact that it comes from your [unclear]

[student, Kylie: --now your perception of it is still colored by your karma but it
still remains--]

it's forced by your karma -

[student: so directly it does come from the karma--]

yeah but that's not it's dependent origination - in the highest sense - it's the fact
that it's made up by your mind -

[student: so secondary, it's a secondary cause--]

why is it made up by your mind? you're forced to by karma!

[student: so the karma is a secondary cause--]

yeah - so is its emptiness it's it's not existing in any other way?

[student: any other way than what?]

karma, through karma - is the emptiness of this book it's not existent any other
way but through karma? if you finally reached the point, where you realize
directly, that it's not anything except karma - a result of karma - would you
perceive emptiness?

[student: no]

no - that's a very delicate question-you know - that's a very fine point - and you
can go and meditate on emptiness and if you don't understand that you might
waste a month or six months - and it's it's extremely close to the correct view -
you know what I mean? So you have to make these distinctions or else you'll go
in and wa--you maybe even haven't been exposed to those distinctions - you've
been exposed to extreme wrong ideas like: emptiness is watching my mind - or
emptiness is concentrating on nothing -

[student: nothing--]

letting the thoughts flow--you know -

[student: or suppressing all thought--]

yeah, or that that has anything to do with the meditation on emptiness - it's
completely wrong - this is even more subtle and it's wrong - and it won't get you
- it won't stop your - it won't let you perceive emptiness directly - and you won't
achieve anything - so those--

[student: you achieve something very [unclear]]

so there is a reason to study the wrong views - and then you you're more certain
- you understand better the correct view - so that's like the [unclear] of being a
Svatantrika for a while--yeah? did you have a question?

[student: nnhh nhhh]

okay good night…don't be don't overwhelmed I mean if you think you're
overwhelmed sleep in a monastery for ten years while monks are screaming
[unclear] and uh --

[prayer: short mandala [cut]]

how this book came to --

[student: did we get the homework?]

we're giving you the homework, I know you're dying for it--[laughs] [laughter]
here's the homework - everyone take one please--good night -

remaining tape is conversation re: homework - papers - lots of paper crinkling
noises etc. - maybe 40 sec. of this