ACI 2 «Буддийское Прибежище», занятие 2

Aci Course 2- Buddhist Refuge
Class Two- Refuge - Five Divisions/
Eight Qualities of a Buddha.
11-8-93

Transcribed by Linda Salmon

[Prayer:Short Mandala Offering]

{Prayer: Bodhichitta prayer three times]

[Cut]
[Student: Is there any intellectual involvement?]

It could be intellectual. Directness is impure, different.

[Student: Any perception of emptiness?]

Yes, it says realization of emptiness.

[Student: Any realization …]

Actually implies that it is pretty accurate.

[Student: This is…]

I would [laughs]. We know okay. Have a seat. We’ll talk after…afterwards
okay, but you can absorb as much as…

[Student: So can you tell the one that correct thing is?]

Yeah, I said yesterday, I said it was last time it was the direct perception of
emptiness mixed with love, but now I’m saying it’s just the perception of
emptiness with love and it doesn’t have to be direct and it doesn’t have to be in
meditation, it could just thinking.

[Student: Intellectual?]
Yes, it can be that, can be that.

Just hold it and listen [laughs] okay. All right, all right last time we talked about
the three refuges, sometimes they are called the three places of refuge, the Three
Jewels. The difference between the jewels and the things themselves, like the
Dharma Jewel and the dharma, is not the same thing. Right. I mean this is
dharma, the books are dharma, they are not the Dharma Jewel. Why? The
dharma jewel can only be two things.

[Student: It’s a movement inside your mind]

Yeah, either a path, which is the thought, which is an attitude or a cessation
which is the ending of some bad quality in your mental stream forever. So
[student: or both] yeah, although somebody was me in New Jersey, with pretty
good debate. How can you have both? How can one thing be both? Very
difficult. So anyway, one is an absence, one is a mental, but I am not going to get
into that. Anyway, there is a difference between the jewel and … and the thing
itself like the dharma and the dharma jewel. So we talked about the things you
that you go to refuge to. Now today we are going to talk about what it is to go
for refuge. What is going for refuge, okay? You hear it a lot in a, you know
every, every dharma teacher whoever comes to New York for those two day
lightening visits you know. They say, “ Oh take refuge, take refuge.” And
everybody goes, “I take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha Okay your
name is Yeshe Kundun, bye” [laughs]. Ah okay the ah…taking refuge is not the
words of taking refuge. There is a vow of taking refuge that is not taking
refuge. That is what you call in name only is taking refuge, it’s a kind of taking
refuge but it is not the taking refuge. It’s not the real taking refuge. We call it
nominal taking refuge. This is the real taking refuge; this is the real definition of
taking refuge here.

So try … repeat okay. {Yul}[Repeat], {shen-la}[repeat], {rang-tob-kyi}[repeat]
{rewa}[repeat], {chaway}[repeat], {sempa}[repeat], {khamdrey}[repeat], {tsenyi}
[repeat] okay.

That’s the real meaning of, of what it is to take refuge, okay. Now I’ll explain it.
{Yul} means an ‘object’, all right. {Yul} means an object, all right, {yul}.
{Shen} means ‘another’, something other okay.
{La} means ‘to’.
[Student: t…o…o] T..o. Okay.

[Student: la means to?]

Yeah, t..o. Tibetan is easy, when learn Tibetan you find out that {la} means to,
for, on, at, in, for the length of, for the duration, all of those are one word in
Tibetan. {La} {Rang} means itself.
{Tok} means power.
What are {top kye men}? What do you, what do you guess is the elix…what you
call it, {top kye men} the herb for generating strength. What, what do you think
that is a translation for? {Top kye men}
[Student: ginseng, ginseng]

Vitamins. That’s the Tibetans, that’s their word for vitamins. {top, top} is what
you get from vitamins.
{Top kye, kye} means ‘of’. I’m sorry ‘by, by’.
{Rewa} means hope, hope.

[Student: hope, hope]

Hope, there’s a saying in Tibetan, a famous saying {rewa [unclear]}, “Once you
put… once you get your get your hopes up for something, you never get
it” [laughing]

{Rewa} hope.
{Chaway} means to to put all put all your hopes into something, to put all your
hopes in something.
 And {sempa} means, {sempa} is a very difficult word to translate. It means
anytime the mind moves, any movement of the mind, anytime the mind goes
“kik”. I call it movement of the mind, but it sounds too much like bowel
movements.
[Students: laughing]

[Laughing] That is maybe, you know, I mean you, you think about it, I, I, it is
close to thought but you see, I almost used the word thought, in one case I used
the word “thought” and you’ll see but I, I, but not all {sempas} are thoughts.
Thought implies a mental verbalisation, “ I thought to myself, I better get out of
here”, but {sempa} can just like a moment of anger is {sempa} you know
anytime the mind does anything, that’s {sempa}. So it doesn’t have to be
conceptual, so that’s a hard thing to translate. Some people have made up a
word “mentation”; I don’t like it too much. It’s not English okay, all right
{sempa}. {Khamdro, khamdro} means going for refuge. {Kham} means refuge,
{drey} means going. {Khamdro}

[Student: That’s a ‘y’ at the end?]

Yeah, {khamdrey}, the ‘y’ makes it “of”. It’s like apostrophe ‘s’ that “y” is
apostrophe “s” like John’s. [Student: going for refuge] Yeah going for refuges.
{Tsenyi} definition {tsenyi} means definition. You are now {tsenyi-pas}. {Tsenyi-
pa} means a monk in a monastery who isn’t just doing easy things anymore, he
has decided to become a logician. [Laughing] {Tsenyi-pas} I mean monks who
go in through the deep studies they call them… the name they call them are
tsenyi-pas} they, they are now working in the real of definition, precision, they
are…so into that, I hope you like it…

[Students: laughing] …That’s the way it’s gonna be. That’s my training and
that’s what I’m, I’m… [Student: {tsenyi} means definition] Yeah, {tsenyi} means
definition. So now we’ll translate, okay. Ah, you can save that thought for now,
but thought…in Tibetan you translate backwards, okay. The Tibetan order and
the English order are completely backwards. That thought on which you put all
your hopes in another object…and…and I don’t know who to say it in English
very well, but that thought should be of it’s own power and we’ll talk about that,
of it’s own power. It goes by…on it’s own power and I’ll explain it, you’ll never
figure it out. [Laughing] I went and asked my Lama to make sure I had it.
[Student: what would that third one be?] It has…it’s on it’s own power and we’ll
talk about that. We’ll talk about that. [Student: so you’re saying that thought
which has it’s own power] …That thought which of it’s own power puts all it’s
hopes into some other object. That’s what it is to go to refuge. [Student: so we
can scratch out in which you put “all” and replace it with…another student:
which puts [laughter] Yeah, yeah, yeah…no

[Student: on it’s own power] There’s a…there’s a nice…there’s a nice definition in
your… in your reading at the back of the notebook. So you know there’s a clean
definition back there. I’m giving you the ‘done it’ [Student: yeah, what I mean I
got test to take and stuff and I want to make sure I get it right]

That thought which of it’s own power puts all it’s hopes in another object is
definition of going for refuge and in the monastery you would be like
{sho………} You’d have to…you’ll have this class in the morning and by af… and
by evening you’d be expected to debate on it for like four hours and then you
wouldn’t forget it for your whole life. [Student: do they take notes or is it…] Ah,
they don’t take notes. [Student: no!]

…They…they read the book with the teacher and then they go home and think
about it and then in the evening you have to debate it for maybe four, five, six
hours. Then you never forget it after that you know, if you debated it, you
know
You don’t forget it easily. It’ s a very good system. You memorise the root text
before you go to class in the morning. They might memorise the whole book.
Okay so, that’s what it is to go for refuge. That’s what it means to go for refuge.
{Yul shenla} means some other person or thing outside of yourself. Obviously,
when you want protection you go for protection other than yourself. You are
going to something else. [Student: this is ah…]

The reason why you go for protection is because you don’t have the power. The
reason you are taking pro…taking shelter is that you… is that you’re going to
somebody else for help because you don’t have the necessary power or you
wouldn’t have to go for shelter. You’d could stand there and fight whatever it is
yourself. And that’s refuge. That’s the idea…refuge means running away to
something that can help you. [Student: Well, that’s going for refuge as to
opposed to having refuge.]

Yeah this the definition of going for refuge. We talked about refuge already.
We already talked about what you run to. We talked about “mummy”. Now
we are talking about what it is to run to “mummy”. What does it mean to run to
“mummy”? Ah, so this is going for refuge. {Rang} We’ll skip {rang tob-kyi.
Rewa chaway sempa} means to put all your hopes in that object. All your hopes.
And that implies some kind of commitment to that object. You really believe
that that object has the power to help you. Total conviction that that object can
help you. And that’s why you go to that…that’s why you run to that object. So
I think we mentioned it last time that there are two things going on when you
go for refuge. Kylie gimme one. There’s two, what they call two elements in
refuge, there has to be two things present for refuge to take place. Why you run
to ‘mummy’?

[Student: because you’re afraid] Yeah, you gotta be afraid. Fear is the first
requirement. First requirement is fear. You’re afraid of something, that’s why
you’re running for protection- and then what can you guess the second part that
you must have. [Student: that that object, that that, object has the power…
[Student…the belief fear]
The belief that that object can help you. The reason you run to mummy and you
don’t run to your sister is mummy’s is big and mummy has authority and
mummy can do something, you know. She can do something about it. Little
sister can’t help you. You don’t run to little sister, you run to mummy. So
there’s are two things going on when you take refuge. The first is included here.
When I say {Yul Shinla} some other object it means someone that I…someone
outside of myself, I’m afraid. When I say {rewa chaway sempa} I believe, I
believe that object has some power to help me. There has to be two things
going on when you take refuge.

[Student: That’s not what we are talking here.] Ah, tell me. [Student: You…you
asked me the difference between the object of refuge and going for refuge.]
Mmmmm…mummy and going to mummy. Tonight we are only talking about
going to mummy. Last week we talked about mummy

[Student: But now in the verb] Going for refuge, going…taking refuge. Going
for protection. There’re two…that’s why this week we split the class into two
parts. The first class was all about Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, jewels. What…
what is the object of refuge? They call object of refuge or place that you go for
protection. We finished that. Now what is it you for you to go there. You
know, what have you in you’re mind to go there. When they say have refuge it
means you have this state of mind. And that is that state of mind. That…that is
what refuge is. It is not the words of {Ayatah, Sangye chödam tsokyi chö
namla}

[Student: have refuge, the verb or have refuge the noun?] When you say have
refuge what you mean is taking refuge. People say do have refuge, are you
taking refuge you see which means are you running to mummy. Refuge is
there; the refuges are there, Buddha’s there, Dharma’s there, Sanghas’ there.
They are like ah… there’s a joke in Tibetan in the Lam Rim. They’re like a big…
what do you call it out in a picnic ground when there’s a big ah, no walls just a
roof… [Student: Pavilion?]

Yeah, pavilion, yeah so you standing in the pouring rain and the pavilion is over
there and you stand in the rain and you go ‘pavilion, pavilion, pavilion,
pavilion’ [laughing]. So that’s like most people, most Buddhists are like hat like
{sangye chodam tsokyi cho nam la} you and walking under the pavilion out of
the rain is going for refuge. That’s the mind. It’s the {sangye chödam tsokyi chö
nam la} you have to you have to say that, but you have to have that thought
going on at the same time. So what does it mean? By the way, this is not the
definition of Buddhism refuge, going for refuge, to a Buddhist refuge. This is just
a general definition of going for refuge and that can be divided into two kinds,
One is going to refuge to normal things and the other is going for refuge to
ultimate things. So people in the world we all, all day got to refuge too, we take
refuge all day in normal things.

[Student: That’s the problem, people take refuge all the time…] Yeah, no it’s for
this… [Student: the object you take refuge…] This is not the goal. This is the
definition of taking refuge, I not the definition of taking Buddhist refuge.
[Student: taking actual refuge…] [Student: Any refuge…]

This is just any refuge. This is what it is. We take refuge all day. You take
refuge, anything you think that can help you; you are taking refuge in all day
long. I think it is important to understand; all day long, you are taking refuge.
The reason you get out of bed is that you go to work, because you think money
is a refuge and it is in a sense because it pays your rent, it feeds you. That is a
refuge and if you did not have {rewa chaway sempa}, if didn’t believe it could
help you, you wouldn’t get up and go to work, it’s not fun, right? [Laughing]
Most times. [Student: It’s funny though.]

That’s why they pay you. They have to get you to come. That’s {rewa chaway
sempa}. That’s…you have that…or you take refuge in say a coat, you have a
coat. You take refuge in your house. You take refuge in your friends, your wife
or your friends or your children or your career or your even your own self,
your opinion, these are all refuges.

[Student: Would you take refuge by not taking refuge in Dharma which is a lot
of people [unclear]…because if you use that to take refuge in Dharma you are
going to get yourself in trouble] Yeah, all those objects that I talked about, all of
them, all of the reason you get up in the morning and all the reason why you are
walking around the street and all the reason why you go to work, all the reason
you meet your friends, all the reason you do anything, is worldly refuge. You’re
taking refuge. Every action you do is…has some motivation to get something,
or you wouldn’t do it.

[Student: Presumably, everything you’re doing is going away from suffering
and toward something good. That’s what you think.] Every object you put
your hopes in is temporary, it can’t help you, it will not help you and we just live
like fools. Our whole day is like foolish. None of the things that we work for
can help us. None of the things we get up out of bed for. You get money by
going to work it is not because you got out of bed to get the money. From
what? [Student: It’s karma!! [Laughing, laughter]]…that you gain from. We
have a whole wrong idea of why things are happening. That one kind of
ignorance. That is not the ultimate ignorance, but it’s ah pretty heavy, very thick
ignorance that we have. We are…everything we do is mistaken, you know. We
think that through effort and waking up doing blah, blah, blah, we are going to
get money. Some people do it, some people don’t so it is not a cause.

[Student: So if we’d stayed in bed tomorrow we would get the money anyway.]
You would, you could, if you were virtuous. Some people just goof off in the
morning and it falls down on them. You could see it in the world. Some people
work, I mean go to India and watch the people work in the rice fields. They are
working much harder than any of us and they are starving. There is no relation.

[Student: But those could be national karmas or larger karmas right?] Right
[Those are what they are.] It is not related to how hard you work. It is not
related to how intelligent you are. There are stupid people who are poor; there
are stupid people that are rich. It is not a cause, it is not a cause. I always say,
people got in an airplane and the stewardess says, “ Your seat number is 12B. By
the way, we don’t understand why this plane runs and it might fall down. Don’t
mind.” [Laughing, laughter] It works some of the time, some of the time it falls
down.

But your whole life is like that you believe that going to work is going to get you
money, but sometimes it doesn’t, s that’s is not the cause of you getting to work,
that’s not the cause of the work, it’s crazy, it’s ignorance. [Student: So, that’s
very funny.] Okay that’s going for refuge. Yeah it’s [unclear] I’m going to.
[Laughter] [Student: unclear Buddhist refuge]

They call it exceptional refuge, special refuge. [Student: That’s Buddhist refuge.]
That’s Buddhist. That’s where you go for a real refuge. What do you go to
refuge to? They call it exceptional refuge. We’re gotta be careful of our words,
because ultimate has a different meaning, direct has a different meaning.

[Student: That’s just Buddhist refuge.] You can call it exceptional refuge.
[Student: Exceptional refuge is always Buddhist refuge?] Yeah what they call
special refuge or exceptional refuge. [Student: It going for refuge in…] those
three jewels…[Student: Is the other one [unclear] what we were talking about
Yeah those are all ordinary refuges. When you read the Tibetan text they’ll say
going to refuge to worldly spirits, which exist, and you can propitiate them and
you can appease them and you can a get a little…sometimes they’ll help you.
That was the example in Tibet and also…but this definition fits all our daily
activities. Basically that. Okay that’s what the definition of going for refuge is. If
you supply the words. Basically if you plug in the word ‘three jewels’, then you
have the definition for Buddhist refuge, exceptional refuge and we don’t do that.
All right now. [Cut]…

Say {kyebu}[repeat] {chung}[repeat] {dring}[repeat]{chenpo} [repeat] {sum}
[repeat] {kyebu}[repeat] {chung}[repeat] {dring}[repeat]{chenpo} [repeat] {sum}
[repeat].

{Kyebu} means person. Person. In Buddhism that can mean an animal also, but
not in this case. [Student: Can it mean anything else…] No, not in this case.
[Student: Can it mean anything else?] No. [Student: Hell being?] Yeah, oh yeah.
[Student: Any being?] [Student: Sentient being or…?] Sentient being, just
another word for being but anyway. I’m trying to say the person in Buddhism is
not eliminated towards a human, a dog is a person too. Long story.

{Chung} means small. In Tibetan, how they say small? {Chung, chung} {Dring}
you had last class. It was one of the three kinds of sutras. Do you remember?
Middle one okay. {Dring} means middle, medium. {Chenpo} you know.
{Chenpo} means big. {Sum} means three. These are three levels of practitioners.
They are very famous. They are in the Lam Rim and they are…we are going to
talk about five different kinds of refuge, five different kinds of going for refuge
and these are the first two. {Kyebu chung} means little person, medium person
and a big person. You can call it, if you are writing a book you call it practitioner
of the advanced scope, [laughing], but think of it as little person. Little person
means the person with the middle motivation for a Buddhist; he has the
minimum thought you can have and still be a Buddhist. He has the smallest,
lowest motivation that a Buddhist can have and that he wants to get out of the
three lower births. He does not want to go to the three lower births. What are
they?

[Student: Hell being] animal, [student: animal] animal [student: hungry ghost]
and what we call preta or hungry ghost. Buddhism is not stupid; Buddhism
doesn’t say you can see these two. Buddhism says you can’t see these two right
now, if you’re just a normal person. I cannot prove to you that these two exist
and the books say that over and over again. They do exist, the Buddha said they
exist; you can see them see them in certain states of meditation but I can’t prove
it to you and can’t show it to you right now so take it… take it as the word of the
Buddha and doubt it okay, but at least you can see animals, animals, hungry
ghosts which are spirits we can’t see. They live around us; we can’t see them.
They have bodies, they’re very subtle bodies, we can’t see those bodies.
Probably what Western people said they’d seen ghosts or spirits, probably
they’d seen something like that and then hell being which you can read about in
the western religions also. The descriptions of hell in the Abhidharmakhosha
and descriptions by Dante or the Christian writers are exactly the same. So it is
pretty interesting you know and I would tend to think that people in each
religion had seen them directly and described them. Some people struggle to
say that the Greeks met the Kashmiris that somehow this myth covered what
they say, “Oh hell is just a metaphor, that’s very wrong by the way. It’s not a
metaphor, it exists.

[Student: Aren’t Buddhists believe that?        [unclear] and after years in the
monastery] Very wrong, very wrong. [Student: Tibetan monks I know believe
in it…don’t believe in hell.] They…[unclear] I haven’t…well I mean…

[Student: They believed in it until they went to the monastery and then after
years in the monastery that they began to disbelieve.] Not at all, not at all.
[Student: I’m just repeating.]

No the great texts, Nagarjuna outlines hell in his Viveka, in 200 AD, the Buddha
describes hell in detail in his Jakata tales. The Abidharma, the third chapter
spends many pages on hell and it exists, it does exist and you know it exits
because you know about emptiness and you know the four principles of karma.
You can imagine that it exits. If those four principles of karma are true then a
perception of yourself hurting someone now could cause you to have a
perception much greater, you know, much more intense and much longer than
the hells according to the scriptures the life of a being in hell is very, very long,
extremely long.

[Student: Are hell beings…something I noticed today while I was [unclear] one
of the questions of the heart [unlear] animals are born, mothers are born in a
particular way and so are humans. Do hell beings… are they born in a same
way?]

Abidharma third chapter explain four kinds of birth, four kinds…there are four
ways of taking birth and one is called {dzute kyewa} which means you just
appear in that place like Padmasambhava was {dzute kyewa}. That is why he is
called Padmasambhava because he was born from a lotus. Some saints are born
from a lotus.

So… [Student: the lotus born.]…the hell is…you just appear there, and your
body has special qualities, you know. They can torture you and kill you and
then he’ll revive again and then they torture and kill you again. [Student: you
gotta to be a monk] No, in hell they don’t have. Hell beings are depicted…
[Student: someone is tortured you instead…]

No, they exist and it is not funny. If you ever get a glimpse of it; it is terrible, it’s
horrible, it’s like just fire and much more painful than this fire on earth. They say
much more painful. [cut]

…There’s a long discussion about what life you see and things like that. A very
long description, a good description and in fact when you reach the higher levels
of practice you need to know about that because you need to use it. Okay
{kyebu chung} for these people the lowest Buddhist motivation is to get yourself
out of those three rebirths. [Student: It’s like the small scope.] Yeah small scope,
I like that word and that’s what’s in the text- smaller scope. [Student: Can you
say by extension also that in the not just the always be reborn as a human but at
least you know, a peaceful birth, they don’t care so long as not in the human
realm…]

No not only in the human, they can be higher than the human also but they do
not want to go to one of those three lower births, they will do…they are living
this life, their life in this world is dedicated not to being born there.

[Student: What makes you go … being born in a lower realm?] Bad deeds, ten
bad deeds basically. Check the calender. [Laughing] I mean over…there are
eighty four thousand deeds. If you want, you want. [Laughter] [Student:
[Unclear]]

Morality. Do these and you don’t go. Do them…don’t do them and you go.
[Laughing] [Student: [Unclear] foe destroyer…]No, no this is just any person
whose…[Student: What is wrong sex, Michael?] There’s lots of them. There’s
two pages about about sex here. [Student: Won’t it be better if there was right
sex.]
[Student: Sure page.[laughing]]
You can check the calendar. Huh? This is the text of the calendar without the
calendar. You can take out the older one’s there whatever’s bothering you.
[Student: Thank you] [Student: But surely [unclear]] Thank you. Don’t say I’m
not kidding [Student… everybody lies. Is everybody going to go to hell?]
According to scriptures ninety-nine point nine [unclear] will go to hell…
[Student: Wow [unclear] That’s awfully [unclear]] It’s not funny. [Students:
[unclear]]

I mean if there’s good intentions to help, yes. I mean for example, there are non-
Buddhists who commit suicide after doing a special prayer. In India, in ancient
India and they thought that was… it actually a great bad deed but they thought
it was nirvana, thought it was how to get to nirvana but actually from the point
of view of your motivation that was a virtue. Yeah if your heart is in the right
place it’s the long way to not, not [unclear] we’ll talk about it. So the bestest
motivation of the smallest level of practitioner. I went to a lecture in Arizona
and the Dalai Lama spoke in the day and some other people spoke at night and
after I came out something bothered me you know, something bothered me
about the lecture and I thought about it for a long time and I thought this was
not a Buddhist lecture. It didn’t mention next life at all. They’re talking about
how to be happy, well balanced, friendly you know. Just how to be kind of
cheery in this life and just occurred to me that’s nice not Buddhism. The
minimum practice… the minimum reason to go for refuge is concerned with
what is going to happen when you die. That’s minimum; if you don’t have that
you are not a Buddhist.

[Student: Not Mahayana, all Buddhists..] No any Buddhist that is the minimum
attitude to be called a Buddhist. That’ why there’s a joke in Tibetan or there’s this
supposedly true story that there was this abbot of a major monastery up on the
throne and some humble monk had you know, the power to read his mind and
he said you know, that abbot is not a Buddhist; he is not motivated by this
minimum motivation. Yeah?

[Student: Then that’s the minimum goal and the minimum motivation is fear
right?]
Right. [Student: Right. I mean the minimum goal is not to be born in the lower
realms, but the motivation for the minimum goal is fear of being born in the
lower realms.] Right and to do the right thing in this life after death and you’re
young and you don’t think that is such a relevant goal. You’d rather have
something that will make you happy and satisfied or even contemplative in this
life, it’s not the goal. You will get everything you wanted in this life as soon as
you get that. The deeds that you have to have to do to keep yourself out of hell
are exactly what’s going to make you very happy in this life. That’s a side effect
they say it is like weeds when in the plant… hay. I mean the scriptures say that.
You can get it, you can be happy in this life you will get it, but the motivation has
to be that I am working and I do not go down when I die and that assumes a lot.
That assumes a lot, you know, that assumes you understand how the mind
streams and that assumes that you even think there’s a hell and don’t truly have
that. But as you get older you develop it, so don’t worry. The older people get it
the more they start to worry about what will happen after they die.

[Student: When you are young you feel strong and you do nothing like it…]
Your mind is on the next ten years at the most, probably the next two months
normally, but ah… [Student: I don’t think that just when you get older I think
also when you get sick, really sick and you lose your physical power and that…]

They call that {nyengjung kose} goosebump renunciation, it last about a week
after you get [unclear [laughter]] Nah it is a great effort and very difficult to take
refuge. It assumes a lot of knowledge it assumes a lot of thinking it assumes a
lot of observation of death in other people, older people and the people around
you. It is not easy. It’s very difficult, it is not like taking refuge is easy and
bodhichitta is difficult, taking refuge is very difficult. Really, really becoming a
Buddhist is almost impossible. [Student: laughing] They say for example, in the
monk’s vows…I shouldn’t say impossible…

[Student: [laughing] good [Very discouraging!]] They say that…we just
studied… I just did vinaya for a month, the monks…you know that is one of our
last subjects and they…we reached this part where they say that if a monk takes
his vows for anything but renunciation they don’t even stick… [Student: You
mean stick?] They don’t take form again, he doesn’t get the vow. I mean he can
go around his whole life with the robes on, but he never got the vow. [Student:
They are not affecting his consciousness and his karma.] They never brewed in
his mental stream. [Student: So he’s gaining the benefits of the vows.]

So then they… there’s this long debate about where we going to find five monks
to make new monks? [Laughing] Because it takes five monks to make a new
monk.
So where are we going to find five monks in the monastery? [Student: Why
does it take five monks to make a new monk? Don’t you have to give your
vows…] It’s the ceremony has to be administered by five monks which is why
there is no nuns vow right now because it dropped under five and there wasn’t
enough to get new nuns.
[Student: Maybe there nuns found.] We’re checking, it’s being referred. In the
Tibetan tradition at present… [Student: Why do you have to have five?]

Long story…ten ways of taking the vows. [Unclear] [Student: There’s fear of
hell.]
…and of death’s other two…[Student: …fear of going to lower realms, I would
say that is somewhat altered form motivates a lot of people from a lot of
religious backgrounds perhaps more in previous generations than…]…oh yeah,
they were, in that sense they were ahead of us. [Student: …strong I wouldn’t
say that would require a tremendous amount of knowledge. It was almost
superstitious, impulsive…] Yeah well that, that wouldn’t be very firm, wouldn’t
be very strong. [Student: Oh, I think it was very strong indeed but it wasn’t
intellectual it was very emotional…] Maybe I’d would say that would be…we call
that a {duljakstulpo} for thick headed disciples and better who study why hell is
very possible just based on what we have here knowing the principles of how
the mind works, studying the functions of the mind hell becomes extremely
plausible.

[Student: Isn’t hell also false?] No much worse it’s a bad idea you know some
Buddhists in the west have said that oh hell is just a metaphor for depression.
No not [unclear] there is a place hell [unclear] [Student: That is like a super duper
depression, hot one day…] 3838

{Dring} what is the motivation of the middle person the medium person?
[Student: Get out of [unclear]] Yeah he wants to get out of this form of life
altogether, he understands that it is doesn’t matter if you are born in one of the
higher realms like a human realms; it is still suffering, he understands that even
this lives that we are living is the best in the dirty world in the samsara in the
suffering world is pain and nothing about this life is very nice, none of the
comforts you now will last period, none of the things you take comfort in will,
none of the things you work for, none of the things about your health or your
looks or your friends or your house or your parents or your family or your
children, none of them will last period. They’ll all go,
It is just suffering it is a temporary state. I translated for, did I tell you, for Yeshe
Dhönden, many years ago, twenty years ago, that is how these classes started
and he said that health is an accident. He said the four elements are going like
this and that sometimes the four balls up in the air are all spinning right but the
normal condition is that they don’t last you know. The standard condition of a
human being is no use.
[Student: Suffering is actually permanent.] No, it can be stopped but we don’t
have anything except suffering. The things we believe are comfort are actually
another kind of suffering. The most obvious fact about fact about those
comforts is that you lose them and if you don’t think, so wait. Everything about
your appearance, everything about your health everything about your work,
everything about your intelligence, you will lose them.

[Student: How can that be stopped?] That is vy ve are haffing class! [Laughing,
laughter] No really, not kidding. [Student: As long as we are in this life, we will
be in samsara anyway] Not true, not true. [Student: So can we say that here is
the goal…] By the way that is the big time, we are going for the big time, I am
not teaching this class so you go home feeling better or you’re a better adjusted
person, you know, friendly and so forth. We are going for the big time. The
purpose of this class is that you don’t undergo a normal death and that you no
longer have any kind of suffering. That’s the minimum of purpose of this class.
It is not that you, you know that you’re, somehow your words are little nicer or
you know…no! Sure you got to get old and die. I met this great Korean…
Japanese master, they said, “This is ‘Jog Gwuang Gu’ you know.” He was able to
sit out in the snow for three days and I looked at him, I waiting, I bought a
flower and waited at the airport for him and he came off the airplane and he died
the next year. He was very old and he was suffering. [Student: Frozen.] Nah,
nah he was suffering badly and I said, I thought to myself, what does it matter if
he sat out in the snow for three days. If he’s got old, I’m not interested in that.

[Student: Well, it’s an achievement well whether it’s an old person or the
ultimate. It’s still an achievement.] Who cares if you die, who cares if you put
your body in the snow if your body gets old and wrinkled and dies. Who cares?
Anyway…[Student: It was something that was supposed to happen in his mind
and [unclear]] [Student...one nice short Tibetan person…] What’s that middle
person whose motivation is to get out of all forms of suffering life? [Student: It’s
renunciation for cyclic existence.] Yeah what we studied in the first…[Student…
and motivation and the goal is nirvana, right?] Well, at minimum he wants to get
out…he can achieve for Buddhahood, that’s okay. [Student: Well the satisfaction
of renunciation of cyclic existence doesn’t necessarily have you Buddhahood.]
No. Okay.

{Chenpo} what’s the big person after that, [Student: Can I ask you a question
about this, about the middle, I get somewhat confused because the idea of, you
know, that you don’t have the idea of Mahayana motivation and yet you can
escape samsara but you can only escape samsara as a Buddha.] I used to worry
about that myself I used to worry about that a lot. I used to think to myself,
how could you get the virtue to perceive emptiness, which is necessary to get
nirvana, if you don’t love people. Doesn’t that virtue loving… they have
compassion in the Hinayana scriptures. The Abhidharma teaches compassion.
It’s not the compassion that is taught in…but it’s certainly that they have love,
they have loving kindness and they have compassion. [Student: Even, even
beyond that though I was thinking I thought only attaining Buddhahood really
gets you out of samsara and not Arhat or whatever.] Oh, Arhat is the end of
samsara. [Student: It is, even if you’re not a Buddha.] Right. [Student: Oh.]
[Student: To be fair this is a Mahayana description here, presumably the
Hinayana will only have the two, first two persons.] Ah, it is a big debate.
[Student: Well, presumably yes.] It’s a big debate, a big debate. It’s a big debate,
it is not easily found, not like they don’t accept on that.

{Chenpo, chenpo} means great and what is the, what is the motivation of the
third person? What do you guess? [Student: To get out cyclic existence for the
benefit of all living beings…] and to take everybody else with it. He, he doesn’t
want anybody else to suffer. It goes beyond, it goes beyond the three lower
realms for himself, it goes beyond the three upper realms for himself, it goes out
to all realms, all beings.
He wants all beings to get out of all suffering. That is why he is going for refuge.
[Student: I raise one point. Does he want to leave cyclic existence for all
persons]?
That is beautiful, I love it. That was the next thing. Nice. That was the next
point.
She said that, what she is basically saying is that does {chenpo} also have the
motivation of {Chung en dring}? Is he interested in getting his own rear end out
of the lower three births, is he interested in getting himself out of the…all six
kinds births on top of wanting everyone else out. Yes, and that is why we call,
and you’ll see it in your text, the motivation which is shared with lower people.
A person whose has reached the highest motivation still has, obviously still has
those lower motivations. He wants… the Buddha still has those motivations.
The Buddha has no interest in taking birth in the hells, okay! I mean Buddha
Shakyamuni has no you know, desire to see himself take birth in a hell. He still
has that motivation. [Student: Isn’t it true in fact that you can’t have the
motivation without the lower two?] Yeah, it is true, why? [Student: Because…]
the second of the two [Student: yeah…] to bring out the first. [Student: Yeah,
because it is that same feeling turned outward. If you don’t have that feeling for
yourself you can’t have it for others.] Yeah wonderful, so those are the first three
kinds of going for refuge. There’s the going for refuge that you share with
smaller motivation, there’s the going for refuge that you share with people of
minimum virtue and then there’s the going for refuge that people with large
scope have. We’ll do two more kinds after the break. By the way [unclear] We’ll
come back and I will tell you. It is a good place to stop. Ani-la made some soup
if anybody wants some soup. There’s two kinds [cut]

Say {gyui} repeat kyamdro} repeat. Gooey okay [laughter]. {Gyui kyamdro}
Okay this is very interesting, these are…how many {kyamdro’s} do we have so
far, how many kinds ‘goings for refuge’. We have three of them so far, there’s
two more. [Student: Cause.] Yeah. [Student: Cause and results.] Yeah this is
cause refuge, cause going for refuge..I…you have to correct me if I climbed the
wall, I shouldn’t say refuge I should say going for refuge. Cause going for
refuge. I always get these two confused and we’ll talk about it and maybe I’ll
remember later, okay. This is to take refuge in some quality which has already
been achieved in another person. Like when I go for refuge to Buddha
Shakyamuni that’s {gyui kyamdro}. And this is {drebui khamdro} means result
refuge, result going for refuge and that’s why I am taking refuge. This is my…I
like this refuge in future Michael the Buddha. I am taking refuge in my future
Buddhahood. [Student: So how’s that different than the Buddha Jewel, going for
refuge in the Buddha Jewel.] Oh, if …yeah these are all forms of exceptional
refuge; these five by the way, just I didn’t mention them. These are the five
divisions of exceptional going for refuge, these are the five divisions of Buddhist
refuge, going for refuge. About Buddhist going for refuge, these are all going
for refuge to the three jewels. So, so in result refuge I am going to, I am going
for shelter in my own future Buddhahood, in my own future Dharma, in my
own future Sangha, if I am not that already. [Student: And the other one?] The
other one is going for refuge to a person other than myself who already has
those things in his mind, he already has the Three Jewels, he already is the three
jewels. [Student: Isn’t that the Lama?] Could be he’s the Dharma Jewel. He has,
I can go to the knowledge in the mind of a person who that’s perceived
emptiness directly. If I go to a refuge [Student: In the Sangha.] in a person who
has perceived emptiness, if I go for refuge in his idea, that’s cause refuge. Result
refuge is for me to go to refuge in myself, my future self. [Student: So that could
even be a sub-set of the of the other three really.] This is the raw material of
great debate, I mean in the monastery then you try to do, to figure out the
combinations between those five. Are they, did they exclude each other or not,
you know they are very interesting. I think these two are exclusive. [Student:
What are…when they say the three refuges, the one and the lama, that’s the
lama.] Yeah {Gyeme kunden lama dame shok?}, yeah no, he has all three, the
Buddha has all three. Can you have only one of them? He is all three jewels, his
being includes all three jewels. But then you’d have a good debate in the
monastery, you’d say, “Well, has anybody just one of the three. [Student: Has
achieved the resultant one and is still working on the causal other two?] Yeah no,
I mean he is the Dharma jewel but he is not yet the Sangha jewel. He is the
Buddha jewel but he doesn’t have the Dharma jewel. [Student: So he could be,
certainly be a sangha jewel before you are a Buddha jewel.] Yeah, that’s easy,
that’s the easiest one. You can perceive emptiness directly and be Sangha jewel
but you haven’t reached omniscience yet. [Student: [unclear] when you hear the
definition of the sangha jewel you said that any person that directly perceives
emptiness here in the text you gave us is says,” Any enlightened being who
possesses any one of the eight mind qualities of knowledgeable…] Good
question, good question, I know, I know what your problem is. It is the word
‘realize’ I used the word ‘realize’. [Student: You find it in the text.] You have to
be…[Student: People who translated as ‘text’] She got stuck with the word
‘realized’, which is the word, which is distinguished from enlightened. Realized
doesn’t mean enlightened, you can be realized and not enlightened. Realized
means you realized emptiness directly. Enlightened means you know all things
and those are different and that’s a distinction that you have to be careful about.
[Student: So realized as opposed to believing in a lie.] That… you can say that.
[Student: That’s the easiest.] That’s a good way of thinking [Student: Could you
repeat that [unclear] system.] The way I used the word ‘realized’ means the
person who has realized emptiness directly. [Student: …and enlightened?] And
enlightened means a person who knows all things and that comes much later.
You become realized first if you perceive emptiness directly, then you become
enlightened later. [Student: I am so confused because it seems like two separate
definitions.] Show me. [Student: Okay this is like the sangha jewel I quote,
"A realized being who possesses any number of the eight fine qualities of
knowledge and liberation,” So you said in the notes,” A sangha jewels is any
person who has directly perceived emptiness.”] Yeah, the first two words of that
definition, a realized being, [Student: Uh, huh] that covers anyone who has
perceived emptiness directly.        You could say any realized being actually.
[Student: So to be realized you have to…] [Student: You have to have at least
one of the fine qualities to realize emptiness.] Right. We didn’t go over the fine
qualities, we will. It will outline…why don’t you ask me to do that. [Student:
Fine quality [Unclear] Either way we are in trouble. Could it be the sangha
jewel you have a miss?] The last paragraph that we missed {student: page three]
page three, sorry okay. [Student: no, you can skip it] I will just go over the eight
qualities of Buddhahood quickly all right and these are taken from a book called
{Uttara Tantra} it is not a tantric one. It just… tantra in that book has a different
meaning. You don’t need to know all this. It is also by Maitreya, dictated to
Asanga and in that book they give the qualities of the Buddha jewel and they
give eight qualities of the jewel, the Buddha jewel. The first one here is, ‘He is
uncaused.’ Is the Buddha uncaused? If he is uncaused we are in trouble.
[Laughing] We are trying to collect the causes to become a Buddha. Obviously
He is caused, right? Aren’t we trying to get together all the causes…[Student: I
was wondering about that.]? Right. Uncaused means this. He is, this is a bit
technical, his Dharma body, his Dharamakya is uncaused.                   What is his
Dharmakaya? [Student: The truth you like uncaused.] It is the emptiness of his
mental…of His consciousness; it is the emptiness of his omniscience. [Student:
Oh, I understand that.] That is the Dharma kaya. One part of the Buddha’s being
is emptiness. His emptiness. You now have the emptiness, the emptiness of
your mental stream is the same emptiness that you will have when you become
a Buddha and that is your Buddha nature. [Student: Yeah and the same can be
said of all beings.] No all beings have the Buddha nature not because they have
something inside that wind uncovered and makes them a Buddha and meditate
tonight and see it and you’re really a Buddha already and don’t worry. Of
course you are not a Buddha already. I’m getting old my bones are starting to
hurt, my teeth are falling out you know, I’d rather not find something inside you
know. [Student: In a sense all beings are uncaused, you can say the same of
every being not just the Buddha.] Right, Right. Technically. [Student: When you
talk about emptiness and when you talk about emptiness there is no Buddha
even, I mean there is even no…] Well the Dharmakaya is his emptiness, that that
emptiness… the emptiness of your mind now, the emptiness of Laura Segal’s
mind will be the emptiness, will become the emptiness of Laura Segal the
Buddha and in that sense some part of you know will be part of Laura Segal
Buddha and that’s your Buddha nature and that’s difficult, people have you
know, there are millions of wrong explanations of Buddha nature. We can…
we’ll study it, we will get there, it’s in this text. Did you have a question [unclear]
[Student: No.]? [Laughing] [Student: Spontaneous.] Okay, he’s spontaneous.
Spontaneous means this. Never forget the example of the moon shining at night
over the United States, uh you know, beautiful full moon no clouds and every
piece of water in the United States that’s exposed to the sky will reflect the moon.
The moon will jump into every little piece of water or ocean or lake or spring or
anything where there is still water facing the moon he will appear there. Even
your eye, in the water in your eye, you know I mean you look up and someone
looks at your eye and they’ll see the moon in your eye. That’s a beautiful idea.
The water represents any sentient being who is ready to meet the Buddha and
the moon represents the Buddha. The minute your are ready the minute you
are ripe he will come to you and he doesn’t need to think he doesn’t need to
think, ‘Oh it is four o’clock, John Stillwell, has finally got renunciation [unclear
student laughing too much] this afternoon you know. I’ve got to go down and
teach him you know.” He just appears, it is part of his incredible virtue from his
past lives that he will appear in whatever form is useful for you, at the exact
moment that you are ready for it that’s one of his qualities; and that is a
wonderful quality and that can be the guy on the bus that spits on you and you
know that can be the tree that you run into. He has the power to manifest it and
he doesn’t think about it, he just is it. It is a wonderful idea, [Student: He will
appear again showing whenever?] He will appear to you throughout the day in
any form that you are ready for that any form that will help you go a little bit
further and maybe it is someone who attacks you or yells at you. Sounds
familiar? Huh? [Student: So it doesn’t have to be a nicey-nicey Buddha if
necessary.] She had a fight with her boss today. It doesn’t have to be but it could
be, it could be a beautiful angel you know, that’s possible. [Student: So even
fighting could be…] Very possible very possible. [Student: What about karma,
isn’t that karma, I mean how do you distinguish when it is caused by the kar…
your karma.] Of course it is caused by karma. The Buddha can’t appear if you
don’t have the karma to have it happen. [Student: It is not like it is caused by the
Buddha. It is there because it is happening to you] Yeah because the water is
ready, the water is still and the clouds have gone. [Student: Or a dream?] Could
be, on one level the reality and the dreams is equal to the reality of the in the
awakening. Normally it is not. Normally it is an example of unreality, but, but
if he could appear to you it has happened, it is in the scriptures it has happened, it
happened to King Udayana for example. [Student: How can he appear…what
do you mean when he appears to you when somebody’s angry at you.] No, if it
will help you go a little bit further in your practice of Buddhism it’s possible that
the Buddha out of compassion will come and seem to be your boss and yell at
you. It is very possible, that that emanation has been on this planet for thirty or
forty years waiting for that moment, to help you, for what’s that to a Buddha?
You know I mean there could be someone from childhood [Student: So you are
telling me my boss is an emanation of the Buddha?] Could be, could, be could
well be. [Student: [laughing] [unclear] it will be a hard time seeing being Buddha
in her] It could well be if it helps you go further, if it helps you advance your
practice it could very well be, it could be. [Students: So I guess this is referring
obviously from the Buddha’s side of this thing you are talking about, it’s
effortless and that’s...] It’s a reflex. [Student:.. it’s right, it’s and that’s what this
spontaneous is…] that’s what spontaneous means…[Student: now from the side
of the person who the Buddha is appearing to, obviously you have to…that’s
also a long process that finally gets that person to the point they can partake and
maybe even ignorantly of this spontaneous largesse of all Buddhas, right so this
is a…it sounds like that once you have reached that point and made this sort of
breakthrough I guess it is possible to fall back from that point or once you get to
a certain point there would be no reason for the Buddha to stop appearing to
you so then on the Buddha would be appearing to you all the time.] [Student:
Why doesn’t the Buddha appear the way he is so we can recognize him
[laughter] [unclear] What if he walked…what if the Buddha walked down the
street looking like the Buddha did, you would think he was crazy. [Student: No I
wouldn’t.] By the way if you wouldn’t think that he would appear to you that
way, thought the fact that he hasn’t appeared to you that way, you would think
that. [Unclear] We’ve got to finish. He is realized by no other way. This means
that it explains that you cannot perceive the Buddha through conceptual means
okay. You can’t perceive the Buddha by normal kinds of perceptions. [Student:
Sensory perceptions?] Is that true? No, not technically. If you live in India 500
BC he would have appeared to your senses. This refers to the perceptions of the
Dharmakaya. You cannot see the emptiness of the Buddha without directly
without a conceptual thought without some kind of special realization. [Student:
Five hundred years ago you would have seen his Dharmakaya, you say?] His
Nirmanakaya, his movie body. [Student: His actual body?] It’s not his, well
there’s a debate, I mean he’s got four bodies, who knows which is the real one,
but that’s the movie body, that’s the one he just shows, you know. [Student:
Movie body?] [Student: Oh, holograms.] You can say holograms, it’s pretty
good. He just pretended to show it, he’s not like that, that is not his real form.
[Student: Almost like an invisible body, almost.] No it is a visible body you can
see. If he doesn’t show that body, you can’t see them because his real body is up
in paradise and you don’t have the goodness to see it. So the Buddhas out of
compassion try to show themselves as a normal human being. It is very similar
to the idea of Jesus Christ.

Okay, the next three are very important and they come together and that’s why
they are blocked up that way. He has knowledge, love and power. There is a
very famous debate about the Buddha. Knowledge here means he’s aware that
we are suffering. He’s aware of our condition. It doesn’t help if someone is
aware of your condition if they don’t care anything about you suffering. And
then love comes. That’s the way the debate goes. Okay he knows I am in
trouble and he says, “ Ah, I am busy today, let them suffer without. So he has
love. But it is also no good if a person has knowledge that you suffering and
cared about you and couldn’t do anything about it and that’s power. He does
the power to do something about it. So he has those three qualities, he has the
power to know perfectly your suffering. He has the power, I mean he cares
about them, he’ concerned and finally he has the ability to do something about it.
What can he do? The Dalai Lama, the first Dalai Lama in his text on the
Abhidharma Kosha in the opening pages; it is very beautiful and there’s a very
famous quotation and he says, “Look the Buddha can’t come to you and sprinkle
holy water on your head and take your suffering away and he can’t transfer his
knowledge to you, you know some kind of meditation and then suddenly you
understand what he understands. He has to talk, he has to communicate with
you, it’s the only way, it’s the only normal way in extraordinary cases. [Student:
But those extraordinary cases would be a result of a lot of talking then.] Yah
right, yeah, yeah, the Buddha has to appear to you as a human being normally
[student: to teach you] and he has to teach you that’s he {nupar} that’s his power,
that is the extent of his power to teach you. [Student: So then it could be like a
[unclear], you could be our Buddha] There a long debate about it. [Student:
maybe you are] I’m not, maybe you all are. [Student: Maybe you just [unclear]
[laughter]…hang out in New York hey!]

There’s this famous debate my teacher told in India debate that happened forty
years ago in Lhasa. The Buddha’s not suppose to have any warts you know so
some…there came to this heavy debate in front of thousands of monks, and he
goes “ Well, I’m warning I’ the Buddha you know.” You the Buddha? “Yeah I
am the Buddha. I am the Buddha.” “No you’re not, because you have a wart on
your chin. [Laughter.] [Student: He pulled out a positive acne wart] Okay
anyway [Giggles]
He have satisfied both the needs. The last thing is ah…, this is an interesting
point I mean he has satisfied his own needs and he has satisfied our needs.
[Student: I’m on seven, where are you? [Unclear] Four, five, six, the two needs,
satisfy the two needs]
I think you’re right. [Student: Whose the one, Buddha’s the one. Is that
anything?] No, it’s not, it’s not (a). It is not one of them. [Student: It’s two
needs?] It’s just two needs. [Student: So that’s (a)] There’s just two needs.
[Student: [Student: Yours and others.] [Student: Last time you asked a question
that ah…] Yeah I still asking that question. I like you really doubt. Sorry. Okay.
[Student: [unclear] ] Yeah I’ll get to it right now. He has fulfilled all his needs
obviously, he doesn’t suffer anymore, he’s living in a nice paradise his body is
like rainbow, it’s a diamond, he has no suffering. He is very happy, as happy as
anyone could ever be, but, but how by becoming a Buddha has he fulfilled my
needs? And the text says well, there’s a big debate about it and people say,
“Well, I’m still suffering. He didn’t fulfill my needs” and they baffled by the
perfection of giving and they say, “How can the Buddha perfected giving if there
are still poor people around? So, he didn’t perfect it. There is still poor people
around” Ah, no the point in this case is that he has satisfied our need and is
totally available and capable to teach us. [Student: We decide to take refuge.] We
don’t have the virtue to have it happen. [Student: Well before you even have
that you have to have the refuge right?] So he has fulfilled our needs so we
haven’t taken [uclear] yet. [Student: [unclear] wouldn’t want to take refuge in
the Buddha’s [unclear]][Laughing] [Student: Fulfilled is a funny verb there.] It is
funny, it is meant to be that. It’s {shödren kuntsog, kuntzog} that’s this Ernst’s
monk’s name and [student: laughing] and Anni-la wants to make fun of Bart, but
it means totally, totally fulfilled, totally complete taken care of, perfect, finished
finito and it is totally controversial, you know. How can he fulfilled my need if I
am still here. He has. It is a tricky verb and we can debate about it for weeks, at
work. [Student: May I ask you if you are personally comfortable with that?
Totally comprehensible and of we…] No, I mean the deeper you get into
Buddhism the more you see how everything fits perfectly together and at first
there are things that seem contradictory and that’s okay. It will and to say it is
not or pretend it’s not is a kind of … it is not acceptable in Buddhism, you have
to question it. Okay. [Student: Michael why doesn’t the Buddha appear to us
[unclear]] You are not ready. You don’t have the goodness for him to appear to
you. It is good karma for him to see you. To have the Dalai Lama appear to you
is incredible good karma. To go to Arizona and hear him talk for five days is
some kind of incredible goodness that we have collected [unclear]. [Laughter]
[Student: But it was two hundred dollars you have to get rid of too.] That was
part of the current show. [Laughing]

Okay why take refuge and then we’ll stop. We’re doing pretty good. He said
the temporal purpose that he can ride you the highest form of protection. The
ultimate purpose is to attain enlightenment and that the short-term purpose is
there is no better protection in this life. You know if you are worried about
some danger in this life, not even talking big time. Go for refuge, take refuge it
can help you. It is the only thing that will help. For example to do tonglen, you
know to this practice of taking on other people’s suffering or pretending that
you could or fantasizing that you could is really the best protection against that
kind of suffering. It is actually a very powerful cause not to have that kind of
suffering for yourself. To have a true desire that other people not have it or that
you take it from other people onto yourself is [unclear student coughing]. That
is one of the sweetest protections that [unclear], that’s the kind of refuge
[Student: Michael, when you think about it, without doing this tonglen right I
was thinking about how you can apply it in every day [unclear] I wish I had this
on myself this way I don’t see this person suffering and what happened at one
point I realized and I was thinking all these things and then my goodness I am
going to be all sick and then I will not be able to help anybody.] Not like that
[student: not like that, I figured that was the wrong way] yeah I know not like
that, not like that. So that’s it. So temporally I mean of all the protection in the
world this is the best protection. If you, if you get some protection from other
source let’s say a policeman if you’re in trouble or a judge if you have a court
case or doctor if you’re sick. The reason why you are getting help from them
has nothing to do with them right? It is because of something you did. You
treated other people, you gave other people medicine, you helped other people
that’s why the doctor is effective for you. There is this thing in Buddhism about
you go to other countries and the same medicine will have different effects on
different people in different people and you can see it in India you know you can
give to somebody, there’s whole countries where medicine is not effective to the
same population. It’s the karma of the medicine if there is anything about
medicine that helps you if there’s any reason a police happens to be around you
when you’re being mugged, if there’s any reason you win a court case it has
nothing to do with the judge or the policeman or a doctor, it’s your own
goodness so taking refuge is the ultimate protection, taking refuge in your own
karma, being moral is the ultimate protection. It is very interesting. Giving is
the ultimate poverty solution [laughing] you know it’s very interesting, it is very
interesting, and it works, try it, try it. I mean, in the tantric texts Sangye Rupa
Dorje says [student: should you impoverish yourself? That’s…] You can’t. Try it
you know. Pick a big object, you pick something holy and you give, and you
will not be poor. The Buddha makes a vow when he became a Buddha he said
that anybody who tries to follow morality doesn’t get fed, let me not be Buddha.
Then Buddhahood is a big lie, you know. Try it and you will find that it works
and it is actually the basis for all the higher, for the secret teachings, that idea is
very important, and it just works and that is the cause of things. It is not
anything else. [Student: What do you mean ultimately. I mean there is still some
kind of connection between getting out of bed and going to work and getting
that paycheck you know. You don’t get it when you stay in bed.] Some people
do. [Student: Yes [laughter, unclear] what is the long-term? What is the long-
term] What if you want one more short term. One more short term is that you
can take vows all the vows. There are three kind of vows you can take. One are
the what you call the freedom vows, which are monks vows or the lifetime vows
for lay people, which I hope you will all take some day and I think we will take
that, we will work on that, we’ll talk about, we’ll study the whole thing so you
know what you are doing which is very nice. We’ll go through that, there are
seven lifetime vows, there are one-day vows. You can take the one-day vow
anytime, we can take it together sometime and then there is seven lifetime vows
and two of those can be taken {Tibetan}. First three can be taken by, first three
vows meaning the one-day vow and the two layman’s vows can be taken by
people who are still living not as a monk or a nun. You can take those vows for
the rest of your life you don’t have to shave your head or wear robes or give up
family life and they are very nice to take, you should take them. Those are the
first kind of vows. The second of vows are Bodhisattva vows. [Student:
Freedom vows, monks vows] Monks vows are one of the eight kinds of
freedom vows. The freedom vows are vowed morality basically. [Student: And
the lifetime vows are also part of the freedom vows?] Yeah, there are two kinds
of freedom vows, there’s eight types of freedom vows, {Tibetan} eight, eight of
them. [Student: Vows for lay people are seven total?] No the first three of the
eight can be taken by lay people, the last five can only be taken by people who
lead, but they all constitute what we call freedom vows. [Student: I see what you
want.] All day, and you have to take those sometime. The next level of vows up
are Bodhisattva vows {Tibetan} etcetera you know {tundruk} and then [Student: I
don’t know them in Tibetan] secret vows are the third level of vows and each
one is higher than the one below it. To take any of those vows you must take
refuge as I just said for a monk if I try to take monks vows without the intention
of trying to get out of suffering they don’t stick, they don’t grow and it is even
more true for the higher vows. [Student: When you say you don’t get the vows
also mean you don’t get any of the benefits?] Ah you get of course you get
[student: it is much smaller…] trying to keep them and everything but it’s not it
does not have the secret fact that vows have, it doesn’t have that. Obviously to
you keep your morality even if you don’t have a morality for that is great but,
but you won’t, you can’t have a vow take it’s true effect if you don’t have
renunciation, if you are taking it for any other reason it won’t have it’s true
effect. If you are taking it because everyone else around you is taking it or
because somebody said you should take it or ‘cause you would look smaller if
you’re taking it because it is nice or if you don’t take it to get out of suffering, it
doesn’t have it’s full effect. So you…so what they say is one of the benefits for
going for refuge is that you can take vows. If you don’t go for refuge the vow
might not gonna either it won’t stick or it won’t be very…[Student: Michael, you
said that um that there’s order which one is the highest one is the secret ones]
yeah the secret [student: and the highest and the next highest the Bodhisattva
and then freedom vows] yeah and most of us haven’t gotten to the freedom
vows and most of us haven’t gotten to the little person in the refuge [laughing,
laughter] [Student: We’re we not Buddhist, we’re just talking about it [laughter]
student: kick the ball around] It’s a…as you get older you will see the truth of it
you know to be really practicing Dharma, you it’s masterly largely motivated by
death, as you get close to it, and it is sweet to have it ready in your head even if
you didn’t appreciate it fully when the time comes you have already gotten it
ready.
Okay the ultimate benefit is obvious, you can reach Buddhahood, if you don’t
keep vows, if you don’t do what Bodhisattvas to do and specifically if you don’t
take and keep your secret vows you can’t achieve Buddhahood in this lifetime.
There’s unmemorising a book [unclear] [Student: I’m sorry did you say that…]
{deshe shepa pungpo chenpo nyenpe shepa nying…} It took the Buddha like
seventy five thousand kalpas to [unclear] [laugher] That is the first three
collection of this and the next one was seventy six thousand kalpas and the next
one was seventy seven. You can do it in one life [student: I don’t want a
consultation with somebody who could tell me how [unclear] [laugher]] If you
take refuge you can take the secret vows and if you take the secret vows you can
and if you keep them you can reach Buddhahood in this life and that’s [student:
so the secret vows are tantric vows?] Yeah, tantra means secret. [Student; when
we took the Kalachakra initiation I think we took secret vows and of course I
took them and I don’t know what I was doing.] Yeah that’s [student: it’s a seed
isn’t it?] why you could have the vows but they could be decimated by now you
know what I mean. You know my monk’s vows are similar and I am just
finding out after ten years and I am studying them in detail and if we have
broken them they are injured forever you know they are like damaged and I am
very saddened to learn that I have done something and I didn’t know the details
[Student: Why are the injured broke?] Um [Student: are everything to be
mended…] they took a big hit you know. [Laughing, laughter] Seriously, that is
how it is described and if you don’t hide it and you openly confess to your abbot
or an older monk and in your case your lama you can restore it a lot. The word
is called {Cher chöpa sojong} you can restore it pretty well but it will never be
like it was before you broke it the first… before you damaged it. [Student: Are
you keeping your vows…] You don’t lose the vows. To lose a freedom vow you
have to die or give it back {Tibetan} There’s three other ways you can do it but
you probably won’t do it. You can change your sex three times and there’s
some other one’s like that…[Student: We’re in New York [laughter]] By the way
I should mention one more and it is called {ge tsa che, ge tsa che} is to give up
Buddhism and this is all bullshit you know and karma is bullshit and it is all
meaningless you know, that, that part makes you lose your vows but aside from
that luckily you can have ‘em decimated to keep them. [Student: So then you
have the idea…] [Student: So why do they give you the vows without give you
like guidance] it is very improper; it is generally ah…[student you know for like
and they will give anyone vows…] yeah it is very improper [student: they will
give you the vows for any initiation and give you monks vows apparently
without you knowing what they are.] Ideally you should study them deeply if
ah…[student: they won’t tell you what they are. [laughing] ] The purpose of the
class is study Buddhism we’ll do that. We’ll do that in detail. Tsongkhapa, the
first book in Tsongkhapa’s collected works is a huge book on those two vows
and it is very [ Kyle : The whole thing is a accumulative process as well, I bet if
you would find many Buddhas who you know, at one point in their career they
finally took vows and was perfectly you know…] [John Stillwell: They kept
them.] [Kyle: kept the whole time. I think it happens over and over again for
everyone.] Oh no you have to have incentive to do something. I mean you have
to take them knowing what they are and with a pure intent to keep them pure.
[Kyle: Sometime at a very mature point in someone’s career they’ll born
somewhere and take vows and they’ll have kept them nicely the whole time and
everyone will say, ‘Wow”, you know and like, yes sure after ten million
lifetimes, break it.] Okay we’ve got to [Student: We have to stop now, the dog is
barking.] [Unclear] The motivation for thinking about it has to involve, by the
way the vows don’t…also don’t form if in the back of your mind you think,
“Well they all so pretty good except that one you know and…[What about
drinking beer.] I can probably dispute most of them and then they’ll be all right.
That motivation prevents the vow from forming as far as Vinaya vows.
[Stillwell: What about the idea that if it doesn’t work then I’ll just you know…]
Yeah it won’t form properly because it is a lifetime vow [Student: That is what
you do with one day…] Yeah the one day vow will work, but someone was
telling me oh my friend said I could become a monk for three years and you
know [laughing] [Student: They do that in the Hinayan tradition] There is a
custom in Vermont Montana and to in fact it is a government, you get a
government pension for that period. You leave for three months and your
employer is required to let you go and you can become a monk for like three
months and then, then come back. [Kyle: Every year or…?] No, once in your
life, you supposed to be aged twenty or something or? [Student: twenty-one.]
Yeah, twenty one [Student: Compulsory.] [Student: I thought that…] It is not
compulsory and it is interesting the effect in Thailand. There’s this, you can meet
a bell boy or you can meet a taxi driver, which I have met and they can start
explaining Vipassyana to you. That’s a nice thing. Technically it is not in the
vinaya. Technically there’s seven lifetime vows and there is one lay vow and
there ain’t nothing else in any tradition of the original vinaya. So that’s a custom
and it’s a good custom and I think it’s a helpful custom. I think it makes all the
men I’ve met, or many of the men in Thailand had a good knowledge of
Buddhism and the King himself did that right. [Student: I’m not sure…] Yeah he
did. That’s a nice thing. I wish George Bush had done it [laughter]. [Kyle:
People will have to meditate in a cave for three years before they run for
president.] [Student: If you can’t give up your vows and take them back?] Ah,
you can’t [Student: You can’t?] A monk can, it’s, it’s technically possible but it is
very extraordinary and not ah…if you take a vow with the intention of giving it
back and later taking it again it won’t work. [Student: No not now with the
intention at some point and then you can take them back] How can you give
them back at which time you are blind because swore to keep them first for your
life. [Student: At that time you swore you meant to…] No, no I know, I know
[Student: You had the intention to that is not a lie.] Oh sure, you say, you swear I
will keep this from my lie. You have to swear otherwise you don’t get the vow
[Stillwell: It’s a partial karma you collect.] So it is very undesirable. Technically
it’s possible. [Student: We took all our vows for say, those of us who too the
Kalachakra, we didn’t know what we were doing, right.] [Student: Which is a
higher vow] [Student: which is a higher vow than a monk’s vow.] No but the
technicalities of the secret vows, [Student: Okay we didn’t know what we were
doing so we were really blown because we didn’t know what we were doing so
should we bother to even attempt the practice?] Obviously, yes of course you
should and then you should [laugher]. Tantric vows you can restore by taking
initiation. [Stillwell: Is it the same as taking the big hit no matter’s strong?]
[ Student: Come in again…] [Stillwell: Same idea?] Most, you can take it again
and they are pure. As I understand it but I can’t talk about it here, [Laughing]
and luckily because I don’t know much about it.               [Student: Same as the
Bodhisattva vows, same as the Bodhisattva vows?] You can take them all day.
[Stillwell: then you get the same sort of crippling effect of breaking them?] I
don’t know that technically. You can…[ Student: I haven’t found one. It
depends whether they are secondary downfalls or root downfalls.]Yeah I don’t
believe you lose, you don’t lose them the way they are monk’s vows.

Mandala Offering
Dedication

Homework! [Unclear] I am sorry we went over like this and I will not do this.
[Unclear] I forgot to mention that after every class two people have to stay
above and vacuum and wash the dishes. Do you volunteer or is that a yawn?
You’re warned, keep at it [Student: We’re not going to go to [unclear]] so one
does the vacuum cleaning and one does the dishes. [Unclear] [Cut]
TYPING TWO OF CLASS TWO

ACI Course Two, Class two

[prayer: short mandala]

[prayer: refuge]
[prayer: refuge]
[prayer: refuge]

[Cut][Student, John Stillwell]...so any type of intellectual development?

Yes it could be intellectual. The directness of being good. [Unclear]

[Student: Any perception of emptiness?]

Yea...and it says “realization of emptiness”

[Student: Any realization.]

[Unclear]

[Student: This is Wendy]

Hi Wendy [laughs], we know, okay, okay. We’ll talk after, after a while, but you
can absorb as much as...

[Student: Can you tell the one [unclear] the one correct thing please?]

Yeah. I said yesterday it was...I said last time it was the direct perception of
emptiness mixed with love. But now I am saying it’s just a perception of
emptiness it doesn’t have to be direct. It doesn’t have to be in meditation, it can
be intellectual.

[Student: Intellectual?]

Yes. Can be that, can be that [pause]. Just hold it and listen, okay? [Laughs]. All
right, last time we talked about the three refuges, sometimes they are called the
places of refuge, the Three Jewels. There is a difference between the jewels and
the things themselves. The Dharma jewel and the dharma is not the same thing.
All right? This is dharma, the books are dharma, but they are not the dharma
jewel. Why...the Dharma jewel can only be two things.

[Student: It is a movement inside your mind.]

Yeah, either a path, which is a thought, which is an attitude or a cessation, which
is the ending of some bad quality in your mental stream forever. So... yeah,
although somebody was debating me in New Jersey, it was a pretty good
debate, how do you have both, how could one thing be both, it is very difficult.
So anyway, one is an absence, one is a mental, but I am not going to get into
that. Anyway there is a difference between the jewel and the thing itself, the
dharma and the Dharma Jewel, so we talked about the things you go to refuge
to. Now, today we are going to talk about what it is to go to refuge, what is
going to refuge. Okay you hear it a lot in... you know every dharma teacher
who ever comes to New York for those two day lightning visits they say “take
refuge, take refuge” and you know everybody goes “I take refuge Buddha,
Dharma, Sangha” “Okay your name is {Yeshe Kwindring}, bye” and then...
[laughs/laughter]... Taking refuge is not the words of taking refuge; there is a
vow of taking refuge, that is not taking refuge. That is what we call “in name
only is taking refuge” it is a kind of taking refuge, but it is not the taking refuge.
Not the real taking refuge, we call it nominal taking refuge. This is the real taking
refuge; this is the real definition of taking refuge here. So try...repeat okay {YUL}
[repeat] {YUL}.{SHENLA}[repeat] {SHENLA}, {RANG-TOB-KYI}[repeat]{RANG-
TOB-KYI}, {REWA}[repeat]{REWA}, {CHAWAY}[repeat]{CHAWAY}, {SEMPA}
[repeat] {SEMPA}, {KHAMDREY} [repeat] {KHAMDREY}, {TSENYI} [repeat]
{TSNEYI]
Okay, that’s the real meaning of what it means to take refuge. Okay, now I’ll
explain it. {YUL} means an object; alright {YUL} means an object. {SHEN} means
another, something other, {LA} means to.

[Student: T-O-O?]

T-O, okay?

[Student: {LA} means to?]

Yeah, T-O...Tibetan is easy when you learn Tibetan you’ll find out {LA} means to,
for, on, at, in, for the length of, for the duration of, all of those are one word in
Tibetan. At, in for the length of , for the duration, all those are one word in
Tibetan. {RANG} means itself {TOB} means power. What’s {TOB-KYI-MEN}?
What do you guess is the...what do you call it, {TOB-KYI-MEN}, the herb for
generating strength? What do you think that is the translation for?

[Student, Tom Kiley: Ginseng.]

Vitamins [laughs]. That is their word for vitamins. {TOB} is what you get from
vitamins. {TOB-KYI}. {KYI} means a, I’m sorry by. {REWA} means hope.

[Student: Hope?]

Hope. Hope. Saying in Tibetan, famous saying, {unclear} once you get your
hopes up for something you never get it back [laughs].

[Laughter]

{REWA}...hope. {CHAWAY} means to, to put all your hopes in something. To
put all your hopes in something. And {SEMPA}, {SEMPA} is a very difficult word
to translate. It means anytime the mind moves. Any movement of the mind.
Anytime the mind goes [unclear]. I call it movement of the mind, but it sounds a
little too much like bowel movement for me [laughs].

[Laughter]

[Student: unclear]

That maybe... you know...you...you think about it. I...I...

[Student: Is it thoughts?]

It’s close to thoughts, but you see... I almost used the word thought, and in one
case I did use the word thought and you’ll see. But I ...but not all {SEMPA}’s are
thoughts. Thoughts implies a mental verbalization. I thought to myself I better
get out of here. But {SEMPA} can be just like a moment of anger is {SEMPA}. You
know any time the mind does anything that’s {SEMPA}. So it doesn’t have to be
conceptual so that’s the hard thing to translate. Some people have made up the
word “cogmentation”. I don’t like it too much, its not English, okay.

[Laughter]
{KHAMDREY} means going for refuge. {KHAM} means refuge, {DREY} means
going. {KHAMDREY}.

[Student: Has a Y at the end?]

Yeah, {KHAMDREY}, the Y makes it of. Like apostrophe S. That Y is apostrophe
S, like John’sss. Going for refugesss. [Unclear], definition. [Unclear] definition.
You are now {TSENY-PAS}. {TSENYI-PA} means a monk in a monastery who
isn’t just doing easy things anymore, he has decided to become a logician. Okay
{TSENYI-PAS} I mean monks that go into the deep study, they call them, the
name they call them are {TSEN-PAS}they are now working in the realm of
definition, precision, they are...so you are into that. I hope you like it.

[Laughter]

That’s the way its gonna be, that’s my training, that’s what I, I want.

[Student: {TSENYI} means definition?]

Yeah, {TSENYI} means definition. So now we’ll translate okay? You can say
that’s “thought” for now, but “thought”... In Tibetan you translate backwards
okay. The Tibetan order and English order are completely backwards. “That
thought in which you put all your hopes in another object “ and I don’t know
how to say it in English very well. That thought should be of its own power and
we’ll talk about that. Of its own power, it goes on its own power. And I’ll explain
it, you’ll never figure it out [laughs]. I went to ask my lama to make sure I had
it.

[Student: Unclear]

“It has its... its on its own power” and we’ll talk about that.

[Student, John Stillwell: So your saying, “That thought which has its own power
in which...]

Exactly. “That thought which of its own power puts all its hopes into some other
object” That’s what it is to goes to refuge.

[Student, Tom Kiley:      So we can scratch out the “in which you put all” and
replace it with...[laughter]..[unclear] ]

[Laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah....No ...there, there is a nice definition in
your reading at the back of the notebook. There’s a clean definition back there,
I’m giving you...

[Student, Tom Kiley: Yeah but, I mean I got tests to take and I want to make
sure I get it right.]

Yeah, yeah, yeah... “That though which of its own power puts all its hopes in
another object” is the definition of going for refuge. And in the monastery,
you’d be like {cho..unclear]. You’d have to... you would this class in the morning
and by after... by evening you’d be expected to be debating for like four hours.
And then you wouldn’t forget it for your whole life.

[Student: Do they take notes?]

They don’t take notes. They read the book with the teacher and then they go
home and think about it. And then in the evening you they have to debate it for
maybe four, five, six hours. And then you never forget after, you know.. you
debated it. You don’t forget it. Its a very good system. You memorize the root
text before you go to class, you might memorize the whole thing.
Okay...so...that’s what it is to go for refuge, that’s what it means to go for
refuge. {YUL SHEN-LA} means “some other person or thing outside of
yourself”. Obviously. When you want protection you usually go to something
other than yourself. You’re going to something else.

[Student: This is ah....]

The reason you go to protection is that you don’t have the power. The reason
you are taking protection, taking shelter, is that you, you ... are going to
somebody else for help because you don’t have the necessary power. Or you
wouldn’t have to go for shelter, you could stand there and fight whatever it is
yourself. That’s refuge. Refuge means running away to something that could
help you.

[Student, Tom Kiley; Well, this is going for refuge as opposed to having refuge.]

Yeah, this is the definition of going to refuge. We talked about refuge already.
We already talked about what you run to. We talked about mommy. Now
we’re talking about what it is to run to mommy. What does it mean to run to
mommy. So this is going for refuge. {REWA}..., we’ll skip around [unclear].
{REWA CHAWAY SEMPA} means “to put all your hopes in that obect,” all your
hopes. And that implies some kind of commitment to that object. You really
believe that that object has the power to help you. Total conviction that that
object can help you. And that’s why you go to that object, that’s why you run to
that object. So I think we mentioned it last time, there’s two things going on
when you take refuge. Kiley, give me one. There’s two, what they call two
elements in refuge. There has to be two things present for refuge to take place.
Why do you run to mommy?

[Students: Afraid, because you are afraid]

Yeah, you got to be afraid. Fear is the first requirement. First requirement is
fear. You are afraid of somehting that’s why you are running for protections.
And then what...then can you guess the second part, that you must have?

[Student: That that object can help you.]

Yeah, the belief that that object can help you. The reason you run to mommy
and you don’t run to your sister is that mommy is big and mommy has
authority and she can do something. She can do something about it. And your
little sister can’t help you. You don’t run to little sister, you run to mommy. So
there are two things going on when you take refuge. The first is included here.
When I say {YUL SHEN-LA} some other object, it means, someone that I....
someone outside myself, I am afraid. When I say {REWA CHAWAY SEMPA}
I believe, I believe that object has some power to help me. There has to be two
things going on when you take refuge.

[Student, John Stillwell: And that’s not what we are taking about here.]

[Unclear]

[Student, John Stillwell: you lost me the difference between the object of refuge
and going for refuge.]

Mmm... Mommy and going to mommy. Tonight we are only talking about
going to mommy. Last week we talked about mommy.

[Student, John Stillwell: [Unclear]]
Going for refuge. Taking Refuge. Going for protection. There are two... that’s
why this week we split this class into two parts, the first class was about Buddha,
Dharma , Sangha Jewels. What...what is the object of refuge, they call it the
object of refuge or place you go for protection. We finished that. Now what is is
for you to go there? What do you have to have in you mind to go there? When
they say “have refuge”, it means you have this state of mind. And that is this
state of mind. That’s what refuge is. Its not {prayer:refuge...}

[Student: Have refuge the verb or have refuge the noun?]

When you say, when you say have refuge what you mean is taking refuge,
people say do you have refuge, are you taking refuge, which means are you
running to mommy, okay. Refuge is there, the refuges are there. Buddha is
there, Dharma is there, Sangha is there. Their like a... there is a joke in Tibetan in
the lam-rim. They’re like a big, what do you call it out in a picnic ground... when
you ...no walls

[Students: Tent.... pavilion]

Yeah, pavilion. Yeah so, you are standing there in the pouring rain. And the
pavilion is over there and you stand in the rain and go “pavilion, pavilion,
pavilion, pavilion”. [laughs / laughter], most people, most Buddhists are like
that, you know, [prayer: unclear...] and then walking under the pavilion out of
the rain is going for refuge. That’s the mind, the state of mind, its not the
[prayer: unclear...], you have have, you have to say that, but you have to have
that thought, what does that mean? By the way that’s not the definition of
Buddhist refuge, going to refuge, to Buddhist refuge, this is just the general
definition of going for refuge. And that can be divided into two kinds. One is
going to refuge to normal things; one is going for refuge to ultimate things. So,
people in the world, we all, all day, go to refuge to, we take refuge all day in
normal things.

[Student, Tom Kiley: That’s the problem everybody takes refuge all the time...its
the object you take refuge in...]

Yeah...no.... yeah... so this is not the goal. This is the definition of taking refuge.
Its not the definition of taking Buddhist refuge.

[Student: Actual refuge.]
[Student: Any refuge]

This is just any refuge. This is what it is, we take refuge all day.          You take
refuge... anything you think can help you you are taking refuge in, all day long.
I think it is important to understand, all day long you are taking refuge. The
reason you get out of bed is that you want to go work because you think money
is a refuge. And it is, in a sense. It pays your rent, it feeds you. That’s refuge, that
is a refuge. And if you didn’t have {REWA CHAWAY SEMPA}, if you didn’t
believe it caould help you, you wouldn’t get up and go to work ‘cause its not fun,
right? [Laughs/ Laughter] [Unclear].
[Student: Its funny though.]

That’s why they pay you. [Laugher]. Thay have to get you to come. That’s
{REWA CHAWAY SEMPA} That’s...you...you have that or you...or you... say
you take refuge in a coat, you take refuge in your house, you take refuge in
your friends... your wife or your friend, or your children, or your career, or even
your own self. These are all refuges.

[Student, Tom Kiley:     Or would you take refuge by not taking refuge in
dharma? For instance, alot of people...[laughter]...[unclear] if you take refuge in
dharma you are going to get yourself in trouble.]

Yeah. All the objects I talked about, all of them. All of the reason you get up in
the morning and all the reason that you walk around the street. And all the
reason why you go to work. All the reason why you meet your friends. All the
reason you do anything, is worldly refuge. You’re taking refuge. Every action
you... you, you do has some motivation to get something. Or you wouldn’t do
it.

[Student, Tom Kiley: Presumably everything you are doing is going away from
suffering, toward something good. At least that’s what you think.]

Every object that you put your hopes in, is temporary, it can’t help you. It will
not help you, and we just live like fools. We... our whole day is like foolish.
None of the things that we work for can help us. None of the things we get out
of bed for can help us. You get money by going to work, its not because you
got up out of bed to get the money. It’s from what?

[Student, John Stillwell: That’s karma...]
[Laughter]

That’s where you get it from. [Unclear]. We have a whole wrong idea of why
things are happening. That’s one kind of ignorance; it’s not the ultimate
ignorance. But its a pretty heavy... its a very thick ignorance that we have. We...
we...we are... everything we do is a mistake. We think that through effort, or
getting...waking up or doing blah, blah, blah, we are going to get money. And
some people do it and some people don’t, so it’s not a cause.

[Student Tom Kiley:     So if we stayed in bed tomorrow we’d get the money
anyway?]

You would. You could, if you were virtuous. Yeah... yeah... some people just
goof off in the morning [unclear]. You can see it in the world, some people will
work... I mean go to Asia watch the people work in the rice fields, they are
working much harder than any of us, and that’s fine. There is no relation.

[Student: But those could be national karmas or larger karmas...]
Oh, they are! Yeah, yeah...yeah. Its not related to how hard you work. Its not
related to how intelligent you are. There’s intelligent people who are poor and
stupid people who are rich. It’s not a cause. It’s not a cause. I always say, if
people got in a airplane and the stewardess says, “your seat number is twelve-B,
by the way we don’t really understand why this plane runs, and, ah, it might fall
down, don’t mind, just sit down. [laughs/laughter] It works some of the time.
Some of the time it falls down.” [Laughs/laughter] Will you get on? But, but
your whole life is like that. You...you...you believe that going to work will get
you money, but sometimes it doesn’t. So that’s not the cause of you getting
money. That’s not what caused the money. It’s...its...its crazy! It’s ignorant.
Okay. So that’s going for refuge.

[Student: Unclear]

Yeah, we’ll all stay home. [Laughs] I’m going to. [Laughter]

[Student: [Unclear]...refuge and what was this other one?]

They call it exceptional refuge. Special refuge.

[Student, John Stillwell: That’s Buddhist refuge]
That’s Buddhist refuge. That’s where you go to a real refuge. One of the... where
do you go for refuge. [Student: unclear] They call it exceptional refuge. We got
to be careful with our words, because ultimate has a different meaning, direct
has a different meaning. Be careful.

[Student: And that’s just Buddhist refuge.]

You can call it exceptional refuge.

[Student: Exceptional refuge is always Buddhist refuge?]

Yeah, what they call special refuge or exceptional refuge.

[Student, John Stillwell: And its going for refuge in those three jewels?]

Yeah.

[Student: Is the other one ordinary refuge that we just talked about?]

Yeah. All of those were ordinary refuges. When you read the Tibetan text they’ll
say going for refuge to worldly spirits, which exist, and you can propitiate them
and you can appease them and you can get a little...sometimes they’ll help you,
and that was the example in Tibet. And also... but... but... this definition fits all of
our daily activities. Its basically that. Okay that’s what the definition for going
for refuge is. If you supply the words...basically if you plug in the words “Three
Jewels”, then you have the definition of Buddhist refuge. Exceptional Refuge.
And we don’t do that. Alright now...

[Cut]

{KYEBU} [repeat], {CHUNG} [repeat], {DRING} [repeat], {CHENPO} [repeat],
{SUM} [repeat], {KYEBU} [repeat], {CHUNG} [repeat], {DRING} [repeat],
{CHENPO} [repeat], {SUM} [repeat]. Ah... “Kyebu” means person. Person. In
Buddhism that can mean an animal also. But not in this case. Okay.

[Student: Can it mean anything else...like a “hell being”?]

Yeah. Oh yeah.
[Student: “Sentient being”, or...?]

You can say “being”. There’s another word for being, but anyway. What I’m
trying to say is the per... “Person” in Buddhism is not limited to a human; a dog
is a person too. Long story...{Kyebu}. {Chung} means “small”. In Tibetan how
they say small, “{chung, chung}”, “{chung, chung}”. {Dring} you had last class, it
was one of the three kinds of sutras, do you remember?

[Students: No]

Middle one. Okay? {Dring} means “middle”... “medium”. {Chenpo} you know.
Chenpo means “big”. Okay? {Sum} means “three”. These are three levels of
practitioner. They’re very famous, they’re in the lamrim. And they are... we are
going to talk about five different kinds of refuge, five different kinds of going
for refuge. And these are the first three. Okay. {Kyebu chung} means “little
person, medium person and big person”. You can call it... if you’re writing a
book you call it practitioner of the advanced scope [laughs], let’s think of it as
little person, its alright. “Little person” means the person with the minimum
motivation for buddhists. He has the minimum thought you could have and still
be a buddhist. He has the smallest, lowest motivation that a buddhist can have.
And that’s that he wants to get out of the three lower births. He does not want
to go to the three lower births. What are they?

[Students: Hell being.]

Hell

[Students: Animal]

Animal

[Students: [Unclear]]

And what we call {unclear}. Buddhism is not stupid. Buddhism doesn’t say you
can say
these two. Buddhism says you can’t see these two right now if you’re just a
normal person. We... I cannot prove to that these two exists. Okay. And the
books say that over and over again. They do exist. The Buddha said they exist.
You can see them, in certain states of meditation. But I can’t prove it to you and I
can’t show it to you right now, so take it...take it as the word of the Buddha and
doubt it, okay. But at least you can see animals. Animals, and Hungry ghost,
which are spirits we that can’t see. They live around us. We can’t see them.
They have bodies, very subtle bodies but we can’t see those bodies. Probably
what western people say they see ghosts or spirits, probably they have
something from this realm. And then Hell being which you can read about in
the western religion also. The descriptions of Hell in the Abhidharmakosha and
the description of Hell by Dante or the Christian writers are exactly the same, so
its pretty interesting. I would tend to think that people in each religion have
seen them directly and described them. Some people struggle to say that the
Greeks met the Kashmuris and somehow this myth [unclear] or they say that
Hell is just a metaphor, that’s very wrong by the way. Its not just a metaphor it
exists...[27:00]

[Student: A lot of Buddhists [unclear]]

Very wrong , very wrong.

[Student: Tibetan lamas I know don’t believe in Hell. {Unclear})

{All: Laughter) [unclea]

[Student: They did, they believed in it until they went to the monestary, and
after years of studying at the monestary that they began to disbelieve.]

No. Not at all, not at all.

[Student: I’m just repeating..]

The great texts, Naragarjuna outlines Hell in his {Sumeca}in 200 A.D., the Buddha
describes hell in detail in his Jaktaka Tales, the Abhidharma the third chapter
spends many pages on hell. It does exist. And you know it exists because you
know about Emptiness and you know the four principals of karma. You can
imagine that it exists. If those Four principals of Karma are true, then a
perception of yourself hurting someone now could cause you to have a
perception, much greater, much more intense, and much longer. I mean the
hells, according to the scriptures the life of a being in hell is very, very long.
Extremely long.

[Student: Are hell beings [unclear] animals have mothers and are born so are
humans, are hell beings born the same way?.]
Abhidharma, third chapter explains four kinds of birth. Four kinds, there are
four ways of taking birth. And one is called {TIB:zutecyewa} which means you
just appear in that place. (28:33) [6.5 minutes per day!] Like Padmasambhava was
[Tib: (unclear) zutecyewa.] That’s why he was called Padmasmbahva. Because
he was born from a lotus. Some saints are born from a lotus. So...

[Student: The lotus born.]

The hell is a...in hell you are... you just appear there. And your body has special
qualities. They can torture you and kill you and then, you know, revive again
And then they torture and kill you again and then revive you.

[Student: You don’t need a mom.]

No.

[All: laughter]

No in hell they don’t have... hell beings are [tib: (unclear) zutecyewa]

[John Stillwell: They have someone to torture you instead]

[Students: Laughter]

No it exists and its not funny. If you ever get a glimpse of itsc terrible, its
horrible. Its...its umm... its like just fire. And its much more painful than this fire
on earth. They say much more painful. There is a long description about that.
What (unclear) you see and things like that. And so... a very long description. A
good description. And in fact when you reach the higher levels of practice you
need to know about that because you need to use it. Okay. {Kyebu chung} so
these people ...the lowest buddhist motivation is to get yourself out of those
three births.

[Student: unclear]

Yeah. Smallest scope. I like that word by the way. And that’s what’s in the text.
Smallest scope.

[Tom Kiley: Can you say by extension also not just to always be reborn as a
human but at least a decent birth?]

No. No.

[Tom Kiley: They don’t care. At least so long as I am in the human realm...]

They..no not even the human they could be in the higher than human also. They
don’t, they do not want to go to one of those three lower births. They will do...
they are living this life, their life in this world is dedicated not to being born
there.

[Student: What makes you go... be born a lower realm?]

Bad deeds. The ten bad deeds basically. Check the calendar [laughs]. I mean
those eighty-four thousand deeds. [Student: Unclear] If you want, you want? I’m
kidding. [Student:Unclear] Morality. Do these and you don’t go, do this and
don’t do them and you go [laughs].

[Student: {unclear}]

No. No, this is just any person who’s...

[Student: What’s wrong sex Michael?]

There’s lots of them there are two pages of wrong sex

[Student: What would be better is what’s right sex.].

[John Stillwell: Shorter page [laughs/laughter]]

[Laughs] You can check that calendar. Huh?

[Student: unclear]

This is the text of the calendar without the calendar on it.

[Student: It doesn’t say Michael.]

No just, you can take out all the ones there, whatever is left is okay [laughs].
[John Stilwell: Thank you.[Laughs]]

I’m not kidding. Im not kidding.

[Student: It, it, it, do not lie, everybody lies. Is everybody going to go to hell?]

According to the scriptures, ninety-nine point nine nine nine percent of all people
will go to hell.

[John Stilwell: Wow.]

[Students: Unclear] That would be an awfully...[laughter]]

Not funny. No. Not funny.

[Students: Unclear]

I mean those good intentions to help, yes. I mean for example there are non-
buddhists who commit suicide after doing some sort of special prayer in India, in
ancient India. And they thought that was, its actually great bad deed. But they
thought it was nirvana. They thought it was how to get to nirvana. But actually
from the point of view of motivation, that was a virtue. So yeah, if your heart is
in the right place its a long way from... you know, not taking...we’ll talk about it.
So that’s the motivation of the smallest level of practitioners. I went to a lecture
in Arizona and the Dalai Lama spoke during the day and some other people
spoke at night. And after I came out, something bothered me. Some...some...
Something bothered me about the lecture and I thought about it for a long time.
And I thought this is not a Buddhist lecture. They didn’t mention next life at all.
They’re talking about how to be happy, well balanced, you know, friendly. You
know...just how to be kinda cheery in this life. And then it just occurred to me
that’s nice, but its not Buddhism. The minimum prac... the minimum reason to
go for refuge is, is... is concern about what’s gonna happen when you die. That’s
minimum. If you don’t have that you’re not a Buddhist.

[John Stillwell: Not to Mahayana, but all Buddhists.]

No any Buddhists. That...that is the minimum attitude to, to be called a Buddhist.
And that’s why there’s this joke in Tibetan where there’s this supposedly true
story that there was an abbot of a major monastery up on the throne and some
humble monk had, you know he had the power to read his mind. And he said
that abbot is not a Buddhist. He is not motivated by this minimum motivation.

[Tom Kiley: Then that’s the minimum goal, and the minimum motivation is fear,
right?]

Yeah. Right. Sure.

[Tom Kiley: The minimum goal is not to be born in the lower realms. The
motivation for the minimum goal is fear of being born in the lower realms.]

Right. And...and to do the right things in this life... and you’re young and you
don’t think that’s such a relevant goal. You rather have something to work on
that’s gonna make you happy or satisfied or even contemplative in this life. It
not the goal. You will get everything you wanted in this life as soon as you get
that. The deeds you have to do to keep yourself out of hell are exactly what’s
gonna make you very happy in this life. That’s a side effect. They say that’s like
weeds when you plant hay [laughs], you know. I mean the scriptures say that.
Though you can get it, you can be happy in this life. You will get it. But the
motivation has to be that I am working that I do not go down when I die. And
that assumes a lot. That assumes a lot. That assumes you know how the mind
streams. And that assumes you even think there’s a hell. And we don’t, we don’t
truly have that. But as you get older you develop it. So don’t worry [laughter].
The older people get the more they start to worry about what will happen after
they’ve gone on.

[Student: When you’re young you feel strong and you feel nothing like it...]

Your mind is on the next ten years at the most. Probably the next two months,
normally.

[Student: I don’t think its just when you get older, I think also when you’re sick
and...]

Oh yeah.

[Student: ...really sick and when you lose your physical power.]

They call that [Tib. unclear], they call that goose bump renunciation, it lasts about
a week after you get well...[laughter]. No its a great effort, its very difficult to
take refuge. It assumes a lot of knowledge. It assumes a lot of thinking. It
assumes a lot of observation of death in other people, older people and people
around you. It’s not easy, its very difficult. Its not a... its not like, ah, taking
refuge is easy, and Bodhichitta is difficult. Taking refuge is very difficult. Really
becoming a Buddhist is almost impossible, they say...

[Students: Laughter]

...for example in the monks vows...I shouldn’t say almost impossible.

[Student: {laughs} Very discouraging]

They say, we just studied...I just did ah, vinaya for a month. The monks, that’s
one of our last subjects. And we reached this part where they say that if a monk
takes his vows for any other purpose than, than renunciation, they don’t even
stick.

[John Stilwell: What do you mean stick?]

They don’t take form in him. He doesn’t get the vow. I mean he can go around
his whole life with the robes on but he... he never got the vows.

[John Stilwell: They are not affecting his consciousness and his mind.]

They never grew in his mental stream.

[John Stilwell: He never gets any of the benefits of the vows.]

So then they there’s this long debate about where are we gonna find five monks
to make new monks. [Laughs] Cause it takes five monks to make a new monk.
So... so where we gonna find five monks in a monastery. The ceremony has to
be administered by five monks. Which is why there’s no nun’s vows right now.
Because it dropped under five, and then there wasn’t enough to give a new nun
vows. [Unclear] In the Tibetan tradtion you have to have...

[Student: Why do you have to have five?]

Huh?

[Student: Why do you have to have five?]
Long story. Ten ways of taking your vows.

[Students: [unclear]]

No its just...

[Student: [unclear]...this fear of hell and lower realms. So its a fear of falling into
lower realms. I would say that in a somewhat altered form motivates alot of
people in a lot of different religious backgrounds perhaps more, in previous
generations than now.]

Oh yeah. They were... in that sense they were ahead of us.

[Student: That was very strong. But I wouldn’t say that it required a tremendous
amount of knowledge. It was almost superstitious... impulsive...]

Yeah... well that, that wouldn’t be very firm. It wouldn’t be very strong.

[Student: Oh I think it was very strong indeed. but it wasn’t an intellectual thing,
it was emotional.]

Well, maybe. I’d say that would be... we call that a [tib. deljajubo] for
thickheaded disciples [laughs]. And better are those that study and understand
why hell, hell is, is very possible. No... Just based on what we can see here,
knowing the principles of how your mind works, studying the functions of the
mind, hell becomes extremely plausible.

[Student: [Unclear] can’t one be in hell in this world?]

No... no. Much worse. Its a bad idea. You know some Buddhist teachers in the
west have said oh... hell is just a metaphor for depression [laughs]. No not
correct. Not correct. There is a place hell. It ain’t depression.

[Tom Kiley: [unclear] ...its like you’re real super duper.. a real hot one.]

Okay, Ding...what is the motivation of the middle person, the medium person?

[Student: To get out of cyclic existence.]

Yeah. He wants to get out of this form of life all together. He understands that it
doesn’t even matter if you are born in one of the higher realms like a human
realm. Its still suffering. He, he understands that even this life that we are living,
which is the best in the dirty world, in the samsara, in the suffering world, is...is
pain. And that nothing about this life is...is very nice. None of the comforts you
have now will last. Period. None of the things you take comfort in, none of the
things you works for, none of the things about your health, or your looks, or
your friends, or your house, or your parents, or your family, or your children,
none of them will last. Period. They’ll all go. Its just suffering, its a temporary
state. I... I translated... did I tell you that? For Yeshe [tib. Dumden]

[Student: Did you?]

Many years ago. Twenty ears ago. That’s how these classes started. And um...he
said health is an accident. The four elements are... the four elements are going
like this, and sometimes the four balls are up in the air all spinning right. But the
normal condition is they’ll never...[laughs]...you know. The standard condition of
a human being is [unclear].

[Student: Suffering is actually permanent.]

No. It can be stopped. But...but we don’t have anything except suffering. The
things we believe are... are comfort are actually another kind of suffering. The
most obvious fact about those comforts are is that you lose them. And if you
don’t think so wait. Everything about your appearance, everything about your
health, everything about your work, everything about your intelligence, you’re
gonna lose it.

[Student: How can that be stopped?]

That’s why we’re having class [laughs/laughter]. No really, no kidding.

[Student: As longs as we {unclear}this life we are gonna be in samsara anyway.]

Not true. Not true.

[Tom Kiley: So can we say here the goal is...]

By the way, that’s, that’s the big time. We are going for the big time. I’m not
teaching this class so you go home feeling better, or you are a better adjusted
person [laughter], or you know, more friendly [laughs/laughter]...or more
cheerful. We are going for the big time. The purpose of this class is is so you
don’t undergo a normal death. And that you no longer have any kind of
suffering. That’s the minimum of... purpose of this class. Not that you somehow
your work goes a little nicer or...no [laughter]. 41:30 Because you still need to get
old and die. I met this great Korean... Japanese master. They said this is Joe
Gwan Gu you know, and he’s... he was able to sit out in the snow for three days.

[Students: [Laughter]]

And... and I look at him, I mean; I brought a flower and waited at the airport for
him cyou know, and umm...

[Students: [Laughter]]

... he came off the airplane and he’s like.... he was, he died the next year. He was
very old and he was suffering.

[Student: frozen...[laughs]]

No...[laughs]. No he was suffering badly. And I said I thought to myself what
does it matter he sat out in the snow for three days if he got old, you know, I’m
not interested in... in that.

[Student: But its an achievement, well whether ...[unclear]... ultimate, its still an
achievement.]

Who cares if he died? Who cares if you put your... your body out in the snow if
your body gets old and wrinkled and dies. Anyway...

[Student: Can you repeat that one nice short sentance...?]

Okay. The middle person whose motivation is to get out of all forms of suffering
life.

[Tom Kiley: Its renunciation for cyclic existenece.]

Yeah. Its what we studied in the first...

[Tom Kiley: Is the motivation and the goal is nirvana, right?]
Well, at minimum he wants to get out of... he...he can shoot for Buddhahood too,
that’s okay

[Tom Kiley: No, no, n... the middle ... The renunciation, the satisfaction of the
renunciation of cyclic existence doesn’t necessarily have to lead to Buddhahood.]

No... not to Buddhahood . Okay. {Chenpo}What’s the big person after?

[John Stillwell: Can I ask a question about this, about the middle?]

Yeah.

[John Stillwell: I get somewhat confused because the idea of... you don’t have
Mahayana motivation and yet you can escape samsara, I thought you can only
escape samsara as a Buddha.]

I used to worry about that myself. I used to worry about that a lot. I used to
think how can you get the virtue to perceive emptiness which is necessary to get
Niravana, if you don’t love people. You know, doesn’t that virtue of loving
people... they have compassion in the Hinayana scriptures, the Abhidharma
teaches compassion. Its not the compassion that’s taught in the... but certainly
they have love.43:32 They have loving-kindness, they have compassion

[John Stillwell: Even beyond that though, I was thinking I thought only attaining
Buddhahood really gets you out of samsara, not Arhat or whatever...]

Oh Arhat is the end of samsara.

[John Stillwell: It is, even though you’re not Buddha?]

Right.

[Tom Kiley: And to be fair this is a Mahayana description here, presumably a
Hinayana would only have the two, first two... persons.]

Ahhh.... it’s difficult... it’s a big debate.

[Tom Kiley: Well, presumably]

It’s a big debate. It is a big debate. It’s not as easy as it sounds. It’s lot like they
don’t accept it automatically. {Chenpo}. {Chenpo} means great.      What is it...
what is the motivation of the third person? What do you guess [unclear]?

[Student: To get out of cyclic existence for the benefit of all beings.]

And take everybody else with him. He doesn’t want anyone else to suffer. It
goes beyond... it goes beyond the three lower realms for himself. It goes beyond
the three upper realms for himself. It goes out to all realms, all beings. He wants
all beings to get out of all suffering. That’s why he’s going for refuge.44:41

[Student: A very fine point. Does he want to leave cyclic existence also for ...
[unclear]?]

Nice. Beautiful. I love it. That was the next thing. Nice. That was the next point.
She said, does he have... what she’s basically saying is that, does {chenpo} also
have the motivation of [unclear]? Is he interested in getting his own rear end out
of the lower three births, is he interested in getting himself out of all six kinds of
birth? On top of wanting everyone else out? Yes. And that’s why we call, and
you’ll see it in your text, the motivation which is shared with lower people. A
person which has reached the higher motivation. obviously he still has those
lower motivations. He wants...the Buddha still has those motivations. The
Buddha has no interest in taking birth now [laughs]. Okay? I mean Buddha
Shakyamuni has no you know, desire to see himself take birth now. He still has
that motivation.

[Student, John Stillwell: Isn’t it true in fact,     that you can’t have the great
motivation without the lower two?]

Yeah, it really is true. Why? You got to have the second of the three paths to
have the third.

[Student, John Stillwell: Because its that same feeling turned outward. If you
don’t have it for yourself, you can’t have it for others.]

So those are the first three kinds of going for refuge. There’s the going for
refuge which is shared with smaller motivation people. There is the going for
refuge that we share with the people of the middle motivation, and then there is
the going for refuge that the people of large scope have. We’ll do two more
kinds after the break. By the way ahhh... [unclear]. Okay, we’ll come back in
about ten minutes. Its a good place to stop. Ani-la made some soup, if anyone
wants some soup.

[BREAK] 46:37

{Tib. Gyui Chenpo} Gyui, okay? {Laughs}.

[ Students: Gyui {laughter}]

This is very interesting. How many chempos do we have so far? How many
kinds of going for refuge?

[ Students: Three.]

There’s two more.                          c

[ Student: Cause and results.]

This is cause refuge. Cause going for refuge.            I... you have to correct if I’m
telling you the wrong. I shouldn’t say refuge, I should say going for refuge.
Cause going for refuge. I always get these two confused, and we’ll talk about it
and maybe I’ll remember later [laughs] Okay? This is to take refuge in some
quality which is already achieved in another person. Like when I go to refuge to
47:35 Buddha Shakyamuni that, that’s {tib. gyui chenbo}. And this is... {tib. debui
khemdro} means result refuge... result going for refuge. And that is where I am
taking refuge, this is a nice... I like this refuge, in future Michael the Buddha. I’m
taking refuge in... in my future Buddhahood.

[Student, John Stillwell: So how is that different than the Buddha Jewel? Going
for refuge to the Buddha Jewel?]

Oh... it... these are all forms of exceptional refuge. These five, by the way, just, I
didn’t mention that. These are the five divisions of exceptional going for refuge.
These are the five divisions of Buddhist refuge, going for refuge.

[Student, Tom Kiley: Divisions of what?]

Of a Buddhist going for refuge. These are all going for refuge to the three
Jewels. So in result refuge, I’m going to... I’m going for shelter in my own future
Buddhahood, my own future dharma, and my own future Sangha, if I’m not
that already.
[Student: And the other one?]

And the other one is to go for refuge to a person other than myself who... who
already has those things in his mind. He already has... the three jewels. He
already is the three Jewels.

[Student: Isn’t that the lama?]

Could be he’s the Dharma jewel. I could go to the knowledge in the mind of a
person who has perceived emptiness. If I go to refuge in a person who has
perceived emptiness to... if I go to refuge in his idea, that’s cause refuge. Result
refuge is for me to go to refuge in myself. My future self.

[Student, John Stillwell: So that could even be a subset of the other three really?]

Ahhh, you.... this is really the raw material of great debate. In the monastery you
try to figure out the combinations between those five. Are they... do they
exclude each other or not? You know, it’d be very interesting. I think these two
are exclusive.

[Student: What are they when they say the three refuges in one in the lama,
that’s the lama?]

Yeah. Yeah. {tib. [unclear]}. It’s a... yeah, no... he has all three. The Buddha has all
three. Can you have only one of them? He is all three jewels. His being includes
all three jewels. But then you’d have a good debate in the monastery. He’d say
well does anybody have just on e of those jewels... just one of those three jewels.

[Student, Tom Kiley: Who has achieved the resultant one and still is working on
the causal other two? Is that what you mean?]

No I mean like he is the dharma jewel, but he’s not yet the Sangha jewel. He is
the Buddha jewel, but doesn’t have the dharma jewel.

[Student, Tom Kiley: But you could be the you certainly could be the Sangha
jewel before you are the buddha jewel.]

Yeah that’s easy. That’s the easiest one. You can perceive emptiness directly and
be the Sangha jewel. But you haven’t reached omniscience yet.
[Student: When you give a definition of Sangha jewel, you say any person who
directly perceives emptiness yet in the text you gave us it says any enlightened
being who possesses nay of the eight fine qualities of knowledgable [unclear]...]

Good question. Good question. I know... I know what your problem is. It’s the
word realized. I used the word realized.

[Students: [Unclear]]

She got stuck on the word realized. Which is the word... which is distinguished
from enlightened. Realized doesn’t mean enlightened. You can be realized and
not be enlightened. Realized means you realized emptiness directly. Enlightened
means you know all things. And those... those are different. That’s a distinction
you have to be careful about.

[Student, Tom Kiley: Say realized as opposed to fully realised.]

That’s a... you can say that. That’s a good way of putting it. Yeah.

[Student: Could you repeat that?] 51:51

The way I used the word realized means the person who has realized emptiness
directly.

[Student: And enlightened?]

And enlightened means, a person who knows all things. And that comes much
later. You become realized first if you perceive emptiness directly. You become
enlightened later.

[Student: I’m still confused because it seems like it two different definition]

Show me.

[Student: Okay, it says a Sangha jewel is, I quote, a realized being who possesses
any number of the eight fine qualities of knowledge and liberation. But you say a
Sangha jewel is any person who directly perceives emptiness.]

Yeah. The first three words of that definition, a realized being, that covers
anyone who has perceived emptiness directly. We could say any realized being
actually.

[Student: To be realized you have to be...]

Right. Right. We didn’t go over the fine qualities, we will. I mean I’ll do them
[unclear].

[Students: [unclear]]

[CUT]

The last paragraph on page one.

[Student: I have page three.]
Page three, I’m sorry. Okay go ahead and [unclear]. I’ll just go over the eight
qualities of a Buddha with you quickly. Alright, and these are taken from a book
called {tib. UTTARA TANTRA}, it’s not a tantric work it just..., tantra in that book
has a different meaning. You don’t need to know all this. Okay. It’s also part of
Maitreya dictated to Asanga. And in that book they give the qualities of the
Buddha jewel. And they give eight qualiites of the Jewel. The Buddha Jewel. The
first one here is, he is uncaused. Is the Buddha uncaused? If he is uncaused, we’re
in trouble [laughs]. We’re trying to collect the causes to become a Buddha.
Obviously he’s caused. Alright? Aren’t we trying to get together all the causes...

[Student: I was wondering that.]

Right, [laughs]. Ahh... uncaused means this. He is... it is a little bit technical. His
dharma body, his dharmakaya is uncaused. What is his dharmakaya?

[Student, Tom Kiley: The truth.]

It is his emptiness of his mental consciousness... his consciousness. It’s the
emptiness of his omniscience. That is the dharmakaya. One part of the Buddha’s
being is emptiness, his emptiness. You now have the emptiness, the emptiness of
your mental stream is the same emptiness that you will have when you become
a Buddha, and that is your Buddha nature.

[Student, Tom Kiley: And the same can be said of all beings.]
No. All...all beings have the Buddha nature, not because they have something
inside that when uncovered makes them a Buddha, and meditate tonight and see
it and you’re really a Buddha already and don’t worry and... of course we’re not
a Buddha already, I’m getting old , my bones are starting to hurt, my teeth are
falling out.[Laughs/laughter]. I’d rather not find something inside you know.

[Student, Tom Kiley: So in this sense all beings are uncaused, its the same of any
being, not just the Buddha?]

Technically, technically.

[Student: I mean when you talk about emptiness, when you talk about
emptiness, there is no Buddha even. I mean there is even no...]

Well, his dharmakaya is empty. The emptiness of your mind now, the emptiness
of Laura Siegel’s mind will be the emptiness, will become the emptiness of Laura
Siegel’s the Buddha. And in that sense, some part of you now will be part of
Laura Siegel Buddha. And that’s your Buddha nature. And that’s difficult, people
have.. you know there are millions of wrong explanations of Buddha nature.
We’ll study it, we’ll get there. It’s in this text. Okay. Did you have a question
Caroline?

[Student, Caroline: No.]

Okay. [Laughs]. He is spontaneous. Spontaneous means this. This is the... never
forget the example of the moon shining at night over the United States. You
know, beautiful full moon, no clouds. And every piece of water in the United
States that is exposed to the sky will reflect the moon. The moon will jump into
every piece of water, or ocean, or lake, or spring, or anything where’s there still
water facing the moon, he will appear there. Even your eye, in the water in your
eye. I mean you look up and someone looks at you eye and they’ll see the moon
in your eye. That’s a beautiful idea. The water represents any sentient being
whose ready to meet the Buddha, and the moon represents the Buddha. The
minute you are ready, the minute you are ripe, he will come to you. He doesn’t
have to think. He doesn’t say, ahh four o’clock, John Stillwell [laughter], finally
reached... just got renunciation, I better go down there and teach him, you
know. He just appears. Its part of his incredible virtue from his past lives, that he
will appear in whatever form that is useful for you at the exact moment you are
ready for it. And that’s one of his qualities, its a wonderful quality. And that
could be the guy on the bus that spits on you. That could be the tree you run
into. He has the power to... to manifest as that. And he doesn’t think about it, he
just is it. That’s a wonderful idea.

[Student: He will appear again starting whenever...?]

He’ll appear to you throughout the day in any form that you are ready for. Any
form that will help you go a little bit further. And maybe it will be someone who
attacks you or yells at you, sound familiar? She got in a fight with her boss
today. Okay.

[Student, John Stillwell: So it’s not going to be a nicey, nicey Buddha.]

It doesn’t have to be, but it could be. It could be a beautiful Angel. That’s
possible.

[Student: So even fighting.]

Very possible, very possible.

[Student: So what about karma? So isn’t that karma, how do distinguish when
it’s caused by karma or...]

Of course its caused by karma. The Buddha can’t appear to you if don’t have any
karma to have it happen.

[Student: It’s not like it’s caused by the buddha, it’s just that the Buddha is there
because it’s happening to you.]

Yeah, because the water is ready. The water is still and the clouds have gone.

[Student: Would a dream...?]

Could be. On one level the reality in a dream is equal to the reality of waking.
Normally it’s not. Normally it’s an example of an unreality. But...but...yeah he
could appear to you in a dream. Yeah it has happened, it’s in scriptures its
happened. It happened to a kingdom in the [unclear].

[Student: How do you... what do you mean when he appears to you when
somebody’s angry at you?]
If it will help you go a little bit further in your practice of Buddhism, its possible
the buddha will out of compassion, come and seem to be your boss and yell at
you. And it’s very possible that that emanation has been on this planet for thirty
or forty years, waiting for that moment to help you. ‘Cause what’s that to a
Buddha? You know what I mean; there could be someone you know from
childhood.

[Student: So you’re telling me is that my boss is an emanation of the Buddha?

Could be. Could be... could well be.

[Student: [Laughs] Have a hard time seeing the Buddha in her.]

Could well be if it helps you go further. If it helps you advance your practice.
Could very well be. Could be.

[Student, Tom Kiley: So I guess this is referring obviously, from the Buddha’s
side of this thing you are talking about it’s effortless...]

It’s a reflex.

[Student, Tom Kiley: Right. And that’s what the spontaneous is.]

Right. That’s what’s spontaneous means.

[Student, Tom Kiley: Now from the side of the person who the Buddha is
appearing to, obviously you have to... that’s also a long process that finally gets
that person to the point where they can partake of, and maybe even ignorantly
of this spontaneous largess of all Buddhas. Right...so... this sounds like once you
have reached that point you’ve made some sort of break through. I guess it’s
possible to fall back from that point or once you get to a certain point there
would be no reason for the buddha to stop appearing to you so from then on
Buddha would be appearing to you all the time.

[Student: So why doesn’t he appear to you the way he is so you can recognize
him [laughter]?

What if he walked in ... What if the Buddha walked down the street looking like
the Buddha did? You would think he was crazy. [Laughter]
[Student: No I wouldn’t]

Yeah you would. By the way if you wouldn’t think that, he would appear to you
that way. And the fact that he hasn’t appeared to you that way that means you
would think that. [Laughs/laughter]

[Student, Tom Kiley: So all we have to do right now is to think... okay, we’re
serious and we’re ready and appear to us in a very obvious form and ah....
[Laughter]]

Okay... okay... we got to finish. He is realized by no other way. This means that
a... it’s explained that you cannot perceive the Buddha through conceptual
means. You can’t perceive the Buddha by normal kinds of perception.

[Student, John Stillwell: Sensory perception?]

Is that true? No not technically. If you lived in India five hundred B.C., he would
have appeared to your senses. This refers to the perception of his dharmakaya.
You cannot see the emptiness of the Buddha, without... directly, without a
conceptual thought, without some kind of special realization.

[Student: Twenty-five hundred years ago you would have seen his
dharmakaya?]

His Nirmanakaya. His movie body.

[Student: His actual body?]

It’s not his...well... there’s a debate. He’s got four bodies, who knows which is the
real one. But ah... that’s the movie body. That’s the one he just shows.

[Student: The movie body...?]

[Student, Tom Kiley: The hologram.]

You could say hologram, it’s pretty good. He just pretended to show it, he’s not
like that, that’s not his real form.

[Student: Almost like an invisible body.]
No it’s a visible one that you can see. If he doesn’t show that body, you can’t see
him, because his real body is up in paradise. You don’t have the goodness to see
it. So Buddhas out of compassion try to show themselves as a normal human
being. It’s very similar to the idea of Jesus Christ. Okay, the next three are very
important, and they come together and that’s why they are all blocked out that
way. He has knowledge love and power. There’s a very famous debate about
the Buddha. Knowledge here means he is aware that we are suffering. He’s
aware of our condition. It doesn’t help if someone is aware of your condition if
they don’t care anything about you. So then Love comes. So that’s the way the
debate goes. Okay he knows I’m in trouble, but if he say’s... I’m busy today, let
them suffer or whatever. So he has Love. But it’s also no good that if a person
has knowledge that you are suffering and he cared about you and couldn’t do
anything about it. And that’s power. He does have the power to do something
about it. So he has those three qualities. So he has the power to know perfectly
your suffering, He has the power, I mean he cares about it. He’s concerned. And
finally he has the ability to do something about it. What can he do? The Dalai
Lama, the first Dalai Lama in his text on the Abhidharmakosha in the opening
pages, it’s very beautiful. And there’s a very famous quotation and he says look
Buddha can’t come to you and sprinkle holy water and take your suffering
away. And he can’t transfer his knowledge to you, you know, with some kind of
meditation and then suddenly you understand what he understands. He has to
talk, he has to communicate to you. It’s the only way. It’s the only normal way. I
mean in extraordinary cases...

[Student, Tom Kiley: But those extraordinary cases would be the result of a lot of
talking then.]

Right, right [laughs]. Buddha has to appear to you as a human being normally.
And he has to teach you. And that’s his {tib. [unclear]}, that’s his power. That is
the extant of his power.

[Student: So if you could [unclear] for example, then you could be a Buddha.]

There’s a long debate it. There’s a long debate.

[Student: Maybe you are.]

I’m not. I’m not, maybe you all are.

[Student: Maybe he’s just [Unclear]]
Okay.
65:15
[Laughs/Laughter]

There’s a famous debate my teacher told me, a debate that happened forty years
ago in Lhasa. The Buddha is not supposed to have any warts, you know. It came
down to this heavy debate in front of thousands of monks, and this guy says, I
want the Buddha, are you the Buddha? And he says yeah, I am the Buddha, okay
I am the Buddha. No you’re not because you have a wart on your chin. [Laughs/
laughter]. Okay anyway...He has satisfied both the needs. The last thing, is a ....
this is an interesting point I mean he, he has satisfied his own needs and he has
satisfied our needs.

[Student: I’m on seven, where are you?]

[Students: [Unclear]]

[Student: ... four, five six,... oh, the two needs. Satisfy the two needs]

Yeah, you’re right.

[Student: Who’s the one? Buddha’s the one. Is that anything?]

No it’s not eight... it’s not one of them.

[Student, John Stillwell: I have two needs.]

Yeah two needs.

[Student, John Stilwell: So that’s eight.]

Yeah.

[Student, John Stilwell: ..seven, eight.]

[Student: Yours and others, right?]

[Student: Last time you asked a question...]
Yeah and I’m still asking that question, I like you really [unclear]. Okay, I’ll get to
it right now. He has fulfilled his own needs obviously; he doesn’t suffer
anymore; he’s living in a nice paradise; his body is like a rainbow, it’s a diamond;
he has no suffering; he’s very happy. As happy as anyone could be. But... but
how, by becoming a Buddha has he fulfilled my needs? And in the text... the text
says, well, there’s a big debate about it, and people say, I’m still suffering, he
didn’t fulfill my needs. For example, when they talk about the perfection of
giving they say, how can... how can you have... how can the Buddha have
perfected giving if there’s still poor people around? So he didn’t perfect giving...
there’s still poor people around. No, the point is in this case is that he has
satisfied our needs in that he has totally available and capable to teach us.

[Student,Tom Kiley: We just have to take refuge in him.] 67:32

We don’t have the virtue to have it happen.

[Student,Tom Kiley: Well, even before you have that you have to have the
refuge. You have to take the refuge.]

He... he has fulfilled our needs and we haven’t taken advantage of it.

[Student,Tom Kiley: ... wouldn’t want to take refuge in the Buddha [unclear]
anyway. [Laughter] So what’s the Buddha gonna do...excuse me I’m gonna give
you this anyway, you know.]
[Student: I think fulfilled is a funny verb there.]

But it’s... it’s meant to do that. Its {tib. CHENDU PENSOK??} {TIB. PENSOK}
that’s Aaron [unclear]’s monks name. And Ani-la wants to make fun of him for
it. But... it means totally, totally fulfilled; totally completely taken care of;
finished; perfect; finito and so it’s very controversial. How can he have fulfilled
my needs if I’m still here. [Unclear]. It’s a tricky verb, and we debate about it for
weeks...for weeks, you know. Just that word.

[Student: May I ask if you personally if you are comfortable with that? Totally
comprehensible or is that one of...?]

I understand... I mean, the deeper you get into Buddhism, the more you see how
everything fits perfectly together. And...and... and at first there are things that
seem contradictory. And that’s okay. It will and to say it’s not or to pretend it’s
not is kinda... is not acceptable in Buddhism. You have to question it. Okay...
[Student: So Michael, why doesn’t the Buddha appear to us...[unclear]?]

You’re not ready yet. You don’t have the goodness for him to appear to you. It’s
a good karma to have him to appear to you. To have the Dalai Lama appear to
you is an incredible good karma. To go to Arizona and hear him talk for five
days is some kind of incredible goodness that we collected to be there.

[Student: That with two hundred dollars you had to get it really too[laughs/
laughter].]

That was part of the karma too [laughs]. Okay. [laughs] Why take refuge, and
then we’ll stop. We’re doing pretty good. He says a temporal purpose is that
they can provide you the higest form of protection. The ultimate purpose is to
attain the state of enlightenment.

[Student: Can you say that again?]

That the short term purpose is that there is no better protect in this life. If you’re
worried about some danger in this life, not even talking big time, go for refuge.
Take refuge, it can help you. It is the only thing that can help you, for example to
do tonglen, to do this practice of taking on other people’s suffering or
pretending that you could or fantasizing that you could is really the best
protecting against that kind of suffering. It’s actually a very powerful kind of
cause not to have that kind of suffering yourself. To have a true desire that other
people not have it, or that you could take it from other people onto yourself.
That’s one of the sweetest protections against it. That’s... that’s a kind of a refuge.

[Student: Michael... Michael when you think about it, without doing tonglen, I
was thinking about how you can apply it everyday [unclear], I wish I had this
upon myself that way I don’t see this person suffering, And what happens at
one point I realize I was thinking all those things and then my goodness I’m
gonna be all sick I not going to be able to help anybody.]

Not like that [laughs].

[Student: Not like that. I figured that was the wrong way of doing it [laughs]]

Yeah, no not like that. Not like that. So that’s temporarily, of all the protections
in the world, this is the best protection. If... if you, if you get protection from
some other source, say a policeman if you’re in trouble, or a judge if you have a
court case, or a doctor if you’re sick, the reason you are getting help from them
has nothing to do with them. Right? It’s because of something you did. You
treated other people, you gave other people medicine, you... you helped other
people. That’s why the doctor’s effective for you. There’s this thing id Buddhism,
you go to another country and the same medicine will have different effects on,
on different people in different countries. And you can see it in India. You can
give the same medicine to somebody and there’s whole countries where
medicine is not as effective to the same population. It’s a karma of the United
States. If there’s anything about medicine that helps you, if there’s any reason
why a policeman happens to be around you when you are being mugged, if
there’s any reason you win a court case, it has nothing to do with the judge, or
the policeman, or the doctor. It’s your own goodness, so taking refuge is the
ultimate protection. Taking refuge in your own knowledge of karma, for
example. Being moral, this is the ultimate protection, it’s very interesting. Giving
is the ultimate poverty solution [laughs]. Very interesting. It’s very interesting
and it works, try it... try it. I mean in the tantric texts, I can tell you {TIB.
CHANGYA ROLPAY DORGEY} says...

[Student: So should you impoverish yourself?]

You can’t. Try it. You know, take a big object. Pick something holy and give.
And you will not be poor. The Buddha makes a vow when he became a Buddha,
he says if anybody tries to follow morality and doesn’t get fed, you know let me
not be a Buddha, let... let.., then Buddhahood is a big lie. Try it, you’ll find that it
works. It’s actually the bases for all the higher... for the secret teachings. That
idea is... is very important. And it just works, and that’s the cause of things. Not
anything else.

[Student,Tom Kiley: You mean ultimately, there’s still some connection between
getting out of bed and going to work and getting that paycheck, you know, you
don’t get it if you stay in bed.]

Some people do. [Laughter] I do [Laughter] Anyways...alright, now I have one
more short term. I wan to do one more short term. One more short term is a...
you can take vows. All the vows. There’e three kinds of vows you can take. One
are the, what we call the freedom vows, which are monks vows or the lifetime
vows for... for lay people. Which I hope you will all take someday. And I think
we will take that, we’ll work on that. You know, we’ll talk about it, we’ll study
the whole thing so you know what you are doing, which is very nice. We’ll go
through that. There’s seven lifetime vows, there’s one one day vow. You can
take the one day vow anytime, we can take it together sometime. And then
there’s seven lifetime vows. Two of those can be taken {TIB. [Unclear]}, yeah the
first three can be taken by, the first three vows meaning the one day vow and
the two layman’s vow can be taken by by people who... who are still living a...
not as a monk or a nun. You can take those vows for the rest of your life. You
don’t have to shave your head, or wear robes, or give up family life. And they
are very nice to take. You should take them. So those are the first kind of vows.
The second kind of vows are Bodhisattva vows.

[Student: Freedom vows are monk’s vows?]

Monk’s vows are one of the eight kind of freedom vows. Freedom vows are
vowed morality basically.

[Student: And the lifetime vows are also part of freedom vows?]

Yeah, there’s two kinds of freedom vows. There’s eight... eight types of freedom
vows. {TIB. [unclear]} Eight. Eight of them.

[Student: Vows for lay people have seven total?]

No, the first three of the eight can be taken by lay people. The last five can only
be taken by people who leave... but they all constitute what we call freedom
vows. All eight and you have to take those sometime. The next level of vows up
are Bodhisatva vows. {TIB.[Unclear]} etcetera, you know.

[Student: I don’t know them in Tibetan.]

And then the secret vows are the third level of vows and each one is higher than
the one below it. To take any of those vows you must take refuge. As i just said,
for a monk, if I try to take monk’s vows, without the intention of trying to get
out of suffering, they don’t stick. They don’t grow. And it’s even more true for
the higher vows.

[Student, John Stillwell: When you say you don’t get the vows, does that also
mean you don’t get any of the benefits?]

You get...of course you get some benefits if you try to kepp it and everything,
but it’s not a... it doesn’t have... there’s six effects that vows have. And it doesn’t
have that effect. Obviously, if you keep you morality and even if you don’t have
a vow for it, it’s great. But... but you won’t... you can’t have a vow take it’s true
effect if you don’t have renunciation. If you are taking it for any other reason, it
won’t have it’s true effect. If you are taking it because everyone else around you
is taking it, or you are taking it because somebody said you should take it, or
your taking it because you look smart or you are taking it because its seems nice
or... if you don’t take it to get out of suffering, it doesn’t have it’s full effect. So
you... so what they say is one of the benefits of going for refuge is that you can
take vows. And if you don’t go for refuge the vow is... either it won’t stick or it
won’t be very meaningful.

[Student: Michael, you said that the order... which one is the... the highest one I
would say is the secret vows.

Yeah.

[Student: ...and then the next highest, Bodhisatva, and then the freedom vows.]

And we... most of us haven’t gotten to the freedom vows. And most of us
haven’t gotten to the little person’s refuge [laughs/laughter].

[Student: Hey, we’re not Buddhist, we’re just talking about it...[laughs/
laughter]... kicking the ball around [laughs] ]

No I mean it’s... it’s a ... as you get older you will appreciate it, you’ll see the truth
of it. I mean if you will really be practicing dharma you... it has to largely
motivated by death. As you get closer [laughs]... and it’s sweet to have it ready
in your hand. Even though you didn’t appreciate it fully. When the time comes
you already got it ready. Okay, the ultimate benefit is obvious. You can... you
can reach Buddhahood. If you don’t keep vows 80:53, If you don’t do what
bodhisattvas are supposed to do, and specifically take and keep the secret vows,
you can’t achieve Buddhahood in this lifetime. I’m memorizing a book that...

[Student; I’m sorry, did you say..]

...{TIB. [unclear]}, it took the Buddha some seventy five thousand kalpas to
collect [laughs/laughter]. That was his first period of his [unclear], and then the
next one was seventy six thousand kalpas. I mean you can do it in one life if you
[unclear]... then you can take the secret vows. And if you keep them you can
reach buddhahood in this life.
[Student: So the secret vows are tantra vows.]

Yeah. Tantra means secret.

[Student: If we did the kalachakra initiation and I think we took secret vows and
of course, I personally didn’t know what I was doing.]

Yeah, that’s why... you can have the vows, but they could be decimated by now.
You know what I mean. My monks vows are similar, I’m just finding out after
ten years. I’m studying them in detail. And... and ... and if we have broken them,
they are injured forever. They are, are like damaged. And I ‘m very sad to learn
that I’ve done some, you now I didn’t know all the details.

[Student: Why are they injured forever?]

They take a big hit you know [laughs/laughter]. That’s how it’s described. And if
you don’t hide it, if you openly confess to your abbott or an older monk or in
your case your lama, you can restore it a lot. The word is {TIB. [unclear]}. You
can restore it pretty well. But it will never be like it was before you broke it the
first time, before you damaged it. You don’t lose the vow. To lose a freedom
vow, you have to die or give it back. {TIB. [Unclear]}. There’s three other ways
you can do it but you probally won’t do it. You can change your sex three times;
and there’s some other ones like that.

[Student, Tom Kiley: Only in New York...[laughs/laughter]

{TIB.[unclear]} is to give up Buddhism, to say this is all bullshit, you know.
Karma is bullshit, its all meaningless, you know. That... that thought makes you
lose your vows. But aside from that you can luckily have them decimated and
still keep them.

[Student: So why do they give you the vows without giving you the guidelines?]

Very improper. Yes it’s very improper.

[Student: It’s like they’ll give anyone vows at any initiation and they’ll give you
nun’s and monk’s vows apparenly without you knowing what they are.]

You have to... ideally you should study them deeply...
[Student: They don’t tell you what they are.]

...No we’ll study them. We’ll do that. We go through that. We’ll do them in
detail. The first book in Tsongkapa’s collected works is a huge book on the
[unclear].

[Student, Tom Kiley: The whole thing is an accumulative process as well, I don’t
think that you would find many Buddhas who at one point in their careers they
finally took vows and they kept them perfectly for the whole time. I think it
happens over and over again to everyone.]

Oh no, but you have to have the intention to do something. You have to take
them knowing what they are, and make a pure intent to keep them pure.

[Student, Tom Kiley: And then sometime at a very mature point in someone’s
career they’ll be born somewhere, they’ll take vows, and they’ll have kept them
really nicely the whole time and everyone will say wow, I mean sure, after ten
million lifetimes of breaking ‘em.]

Okay we got to get...[unclear]... the motivation in taking your vows has to
involved... by the way the vows do not form if in the back of your mind you
think, a... they all sound pretty good except that one, you know [laughs/
laughter]. And I can probally keep most of them and I’ll be alright. That
motivation keeps the vow from forming. As far as vinaya vows.

[Student, John Stillwell: What about the idea of I’ll try and if it doesn’t work I’ll
just, you know...]

No... yeah that’s also it won’t form properly because it’s a lifetime vow.

[Student: That’s why you do it for one day.]

Yeah, the one day vow will work. Someone was telling me, oh my friend was
telling me that to become a monk for three years... no. [laughs/laughter]

[Student: They do that in the hinayana tradition.]

There’s a custom in Burma and Thailand to... in fact its a government, you get a
government pention for the period, you can leave work for three months, and
you employer is required to let you go. And you can become a monk for like
three months and come back.

[Student, Tom Kiley: Evey year?]

No, like once in your life, by what? You’re supposed to do by age twenty or
something?]

[Student: Yeah. Twenty-one.]

It’s not compulsory, but it’s interesting the effect in Thailand. You can meet a taxi
driver or you can meet a bellboy and they’ll start explaining vishpaysana to you.
And that’s a nice thing. But technically it’s not in the... it’s not in the vinaya.
Technically there is seven lifetime vows and one one day vow and that’s it. There
ain’t nothing else in any tradition of the original vinaya. So that’s a custom and
it’s a good custom. I think ... I think it’s a helpful custom. I think it makes all the
men I’ve met in Thailand, many of the men had a good knowledge of Buddhism
from that. The king himself did that, didn’t he/

[Student: I’m not sure.]

No.. yeah he did, I met him. That’s a nice thing, get George Bush to...[laughs/
laughter].

[Student, Tom Kiley: People will have to meditate in a cave for three years
before they could run for president.]

[Student: You can’t give up your vows and take them back?]

Ah.... you can. A monk can. Its technically possible, but its... its really
extraordinary and not... If you take a vow with the intention of giving it back
and later taking it again it won’t [unclear].
[Student: No not with the intention, but at some point...]

You can probally give it back, but at that point you have lied, because you have
sworn to keep those vows for your life.

[Student: But at the time you swore, you meant to.]

No... no.. I know [laughs].
[Student; Well you had the intention to so its not a lie.]

Oh sure it is. You say... you swear, you say i will keep this for my life. You have
to swear or you don’t get the vow.

[Student, John Stillwell: So its a partial karma you collect.]

So its... technically its possible.

[Student: So if we blow our vows, say those of us who took the Kalachakra vows
and we didn’t even know what we were, right? Which is a higher vow than a
monk’s vow.]

The technicalities of the secret vows are in the [unclear].

[Student: So we didn’t know what we were doing so we have already blown
them. Should we bother to even attempt to do the practice?]

Obviously yes, of course you should. And then you should [laughter] [unclear].
Tantric vows you can restore by taking the initiation again.

[Student, John Stillwell: Is it the same as you take the big hit and there not as
strong?]

No. You can take them again and they are pure. As I understand it, but I can’t
talk about it though [laughs]. And luckily I don’t know much about it.

[Student, John Stillwell: You get the same crippling effect from breaking them?]

I don’t know that technically.

[Student: It depends if they are secondary downfalls or root downfalls.]

Now I don’t think you lose them like monk’s vows.

[Prayer: Short Mandala]

[Prayer: Dedication]