Вступление на срединный путь (текущий курс, Аризона), занятие 84

[Speaker 1]
So, we were discussing, they were saying that someone had seen that they're not in control of their body and mind, right? Oh, and I apologize for being late, okay? It's a very bad habit, it's very disrespectful, and I'm sorry for that.

We have some emergencies today in Spain and the Congo. Okay. So, we were discussing whether someone had gotten rid of their karma yet, and somebody said, no, and we said, why not?

The karma that would throw them into another life, you know, another suffering life. And then somebody said, they still have that karma, and we said, why? And they said, because they still have the craving, which literally, it's called craving, sepa, in Tibetan, but it means a kind of misunderstanding.

So, just be aware that that word craving doesn't mean craving here, it means a kind of misunderstanding. So, they still have a misunderstanding, which does what to the karma, the projecting karma? It triggers it, or it arms it, you see?

Say sundepa. Sundepa. Su means to fix, like sojong, to repair your vows.

So, su, and then dep means to do that. Dep is a universal verbalizer, okay, like E-R in English, or I-Z-E-R, okay? So, sundepa.

So, they don't have that karma anymore, because they don't have the kind of misunderstanding that would trigger the karma, or set the karma off, you see? So, the idea is that you have billions of karmas in your mind stream, and you will die with billions of karmas in your mind stream. And also, there's this nasty thing that if you die hungry, you know, that out of all the karmas in your mind stream, that kind of suffering at the end of your life, as you die, tends to sundepa a karma to be a hungry ghost, or something like that.

So, it's not fair. Karma's not fair. You can have thousands of karmas of teaching people in the Hamptons, or old Bok Jimba courses, but then if you just die hungry, you know, all your whole life's work is thwarted, because you can't remove those karmas.

The question is, can you stop them from being activated? So, we're discussing the kind of desire, or the kind of misunderstanding that can activate a karma. And if you don't have that desire, you just as well don't have the karma, okay?

And that's also the fourth chapter of the Yoga Sutra discusses that. Karma shukla kashnam yoginat, tri-vidha mitra shram. Anyway, so we've been in that.

And then our position was that it's not enough to realize you're not in control of your body and mind as you die. Because even that level of understanding is not enough to stop the level of misunderstanding that triggers your karma. So, then they asked us, well, what kind of misunderstanding do you have to stop at your death to stop triggering your karma?

And we said, it's not enough to know that you're not in control. You have to understand why you're not in control. Which means what?

You have to understand that everything that's happening to you is coming from what you did to others in the past. That's all. And that nothing happens for any other reason.

Like that. If you go that second step to understand why you don't control your body and mind, then if you can hold that in your mind as you die, you're okay. Got it?

So, then the question came up, how could you practice in your life, during your lifetime, the correct process, the correct line of thought that could kick in as your head goes through the windshield? Wouldn't you have to practice a bit? Because death is very, very frightening.

Go to a skyscraper in New York. This is a good exercise. We used to do it.

Put your toes over the edge. Have somebody hold your shoulders and go like this. And then you're like, ah!

And then that state of mind, if in that state of mind you can remember how to think of things, then you can die. Then the karma won't be triggered. But that's almost impossible.

So he's saying, what should we do to practice? And he said, well, developing the right antidote to that kind of misunderstanding is all about what? In Tibetan.

I'll give you a clue. Yeah, korsum. Say korsum.

So korsum of tsorwa. Say tsorwa. Yeah.

You have to understand the three elements in an act of feeling. I feel, they make me feel good. They make me feel bad.

You have to understand how the person who just walked into your life isn't happening by accident. And you have to understand how you showed up at the right moment. It's uncanny how karma puts you into direct encounters with the person you least like.

Like out of hundreds of people, you go to the beach or something and you're like, what? Anyway, so who put them there? Who put you there?

And then what? Yeah, and who created the interaction? See, I mean, who created what's going to happen between you?

So those are the three elements in an act of feeling. You can practice disabling the trigger by examining how you feel during the day. Because tsorwa is never, what do you call it?

Unpausable. Feelings never stop your whole life. Your whole life you are having feelings.

The heap of feelings is occurring every moment of your life. Either good, bad, or neutral. So you don't notice the neutral ones so much.

But if you can attach to the act of feeling and understanding of what the hell is going on, then because you're feeling all day, maybe you have a chance as your head goes through the windshield. Got it? Like, it's a nice, it's a smart thing to connect your emptiness understanding to.

How you feel, right? So that's where we are. He said if you get good, if you feel good, you get the craving or the misunderstanding where you don't want to lose something.

And then if you feel bad, you get the craving or misunderstanding where you don't want to lose, sorry, where you want to lose something. And then a lot of people have misunderstood over the centuries. Many, many people, many generations of Buddhists in many different countries have said, therefore I should not feel.

I should try not to be happy. When I eat a chocolate chip cookie, I should pretend I'm not happy. And, you know, if someone slugs me in the face, I should just smile.

You know? And see if they want to be around them more. You know what I mean?

Like that. They misunderstood. I should be some kind of vegetable.

The guy in Kung Fu, what was his name? He was like that, you know? Somebody slug him, he's like, you know?

Somebody say something nice, he's like, you know? And, you know, that's been fed to us. You know, we think that.

We start to believe that. So he's going to clear it up a little bit. Whenever they get a bad feeling, they'll get a craving that they want to be separated from.

Which is not a bad thing. Here comes a very interesting thing for people interested in Pramana. The study of Pramana.

This is one of the big debates in the study of Pramana. Let's go. One.

Oh. We just made a statement, so am I going up or down? Yeah, I'm going up.

Because I said something. People want to get away from what they don't like. People want to keep having what they do like.

And then the guy said, no they don't. And I say, yeah they do. Yeah they do.

And we do it in English on the first syllable. In Tibetan you do it on the last syllable. One, two, three.

You have to go up to the last paragraph to find out how you're going to phrase it. They do so. They do so.

Now the mission statement. The lady in the Congo today, she wrote me. She said, I like your mission statement on the website.

Diamond Mountain website. What does it say? It says something.

I don't know what it says. But it's something like all the conditions to get you enlightened. That's our mission is to give people the conditions to get them enlightened.

Here's the word. What is it? Say tun ken.

Tun ken. Tun ken. So tun means to be in harmony, to be in cooperation, to support something, to promote something.

Ken means a cause or a factor. But here you can just say cause. They did so because all the factors that would promote these cravings, I guess, are tun.

Yeah, tun means complete. Are complete. So we cover it.

If you're going to hypertext it would be the all and the complete. Okay? And saying gal ken.

Gal ken. Gal ken. Gal ken means things that would work against the arisal of something.

Okay? Like gal, you know gal wa. Okay?

And none of the, are complete in them. And they are free. And they are without any of the factors that would prevent them.

This is classical event theory in the South Trantica. Like you haven't studied that yet. Like if we do more, if you want to get, if you want to have a 30 year course in pramana after three retreat, this is what we'll cover.

Okay? And it would be something like, there's a debate about, it's event theory. Right?

So, and the classical example is if you have a grain of corn and you dig a hole at the proper depth and you place the corn in there and you cover it in the right season with the proper soil and you water it correctly and there's proper sunlight and there's no wet, you know, then will the thing grow? Well, yeah. They say not necessarily.

Okay? The debate goes like that. They say not necessarily.

They say, well, why not? They say because a gal ken could show up in the form of a big black crow, you know, who digs down, takes out the seed and flies away with it. So when you debate event theory, you have to say all the tun kens are present, but, and none of the gal kens is present.

No crows. Okay? We got dirt, we got water, we got sunlight, we got seed, we got proper season.

And no crows. Can any force in the universe prevent the growth of the corn seed? All the tun kens are there and none of the gal kens are there.

Sorry? It must grow. Yeah.

So that's just interesting to think about. That has a lot of implications for your dharma practice. You know?

Like if you plant certain seeds and you avoid other kinds of conditions, then you must see emptiness directly. You don't have a choice. Nothing can stop you.

You're min dok pa. Right? You're unstoppable.

Right? So that's a, but we're not studying that. Okay.

One, two, three. We just have to go back and pick up the noun, right? I mean the pronoun.

And they are two. Two. Because the same word says.

What's the same word? We hope it's the bodhicharyavatara.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
What do we call it? Craving? Craving comes.

The first part's okay, right? He's saying, what's the tun ken for the arisal of the trigger as you die? What's the tun ken?

The habit of misperceiving your feelings your whole life. The habit of misperceiving the three elements your whole life. My whole life I didn't question who put me there, who put them there, and who made the stuff between us.

My whole life I thought it was their fault. So therefore I triggered my karma at death. At death, I couldn't stop my karma.

But then he says, and feeling is had with those, too. What's he mean? Yeah, meaning, like we'd have to check a commentary.

Gyaltsabje's commentary. But it probably, then you spin another wheel of life. So say, dumbatsarva.

Dumbatsarva. Gyapasepa.

[Speaker 2]
Gyapasepa.

[Speaker 1]
Even in the wheel of life, right? Number seven, link seven is feeling. Link eight is the craving, right?

But you go through the links like this, right? Like a clock. Clockwise.

But if you trigger a feeling, it's obvious you'll trigger a craving. Then you'll trigger gupadlemba, gyapasepa. Two kinds of arming the karma.

And then you'll get a kyewa at number 11, rebirth. And then gachi, aging and death, with number 12, right? But what takes you back to seven?

Seven causes eight. Yeah. But in a way, what if you didn't have eight?

What would happen to seven? Who said, oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you didn't have eight o'clock, what would happen to seven o'clock on the next day? No seven o'clock. Got it?

So yeah, the tungen for craving is the feeling. But the tungen for the feeling is the craving. Got it?

It's a cycle. It's a sansara. Say sansara.

Okay? Got it? That's the meaning of the word sansara.

Yeah. Oh yeah, you're right. Thank you.

That'll save time later. If you see stuff like that, let me know. We have come to a very major thing.

I think you can say that after like two years, we have reached something. Ready? Here we go.

One, two, three. Okay. What do we got?

Rang lug. Okay. Say shen lug.

Gag pa. Rang lug. Shag pa.

Tse pa. Owa. Three steps of every monastic text.

Right? What's the first one mean? Shen lug.

Gag pa. Refuting the other guy's position. We present it and we refute it.

The cool thing about this... What's a fancy word for educational? Pedagogical system.

Eliana. Eliana. No, it is cool.

It's a cool thing about the monastic system. First, the other guy comes up and makes a proposal. And we get to hear clearly what he believes.

And then we refute it step by step. Statement by statement, we refute it. Then we get rang lug shag pa.

Much later. Much, much later. We get all the subtle wrong ideas that you yourself are going to have about a subject before you hear the right idea.

Got it? It's a very beautiful system. You hear all the subtle wrong ideas first.

And then, only then can we give you the right idea. All western textbooks are... No, they're just rang lug shag pa.

They're just telling you what to think. They just state. Here's how algebra goes.

And they just tell you what to... They don't say, these are the wrong ideas about algebra that people used to think. Newton, before we understood chaos theory.

And like that. This is a different system. It's a beautiful...

He gets to come first and criticize us. And we stop those criticisms. Then we present our own system, which is all a western textbook does.

But then the coolest thing is what? He gets to come back and attack us again. He gets to come back on step three.

He gets to come back and say, OK, you criticize me for that and then you give me your system. But you know your own system has all these faults in it. And that's so cool.

That last part especially. We get to hear the other guy defend himself. And then he's always wrong.

OK. So. As for our own system.

We say that there is, in fact, a way that a person can eliminate den dao den zin. What's it mean? Yeah.

I like to call it... I like to give it a noun like a tendency or a habit. Can eliminate just such a tendency to hold things as being real.

OK. What's such a tendency? He didn't say, I'm going to...

Our rong lu, our own system, will now present how you stop seeing things as real. He said den dao. Just such a.

Or that kind of. What's he talking about? What kind of den zin were we just talking about?

The one that triggers your karma. That's interesting for us. Tell me how to stop seeing things as real.

That's one thing. But tell me how to stop it in the moment, the crucial moment of my life. I could go shooting off to Vajrayogini's heaven instead of to another buoy.

You know? Or worse. You know?

Like, give me...

[Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?

[Speaker 1]
You know, like... That's a... Tell me how, you know?

Tell me how I get rid of... Because really all he did so far was just describe how you get in trouble. When he talked about the three elements, the korsum, he was just describing how bad things happen.

He didn't give us the information we need to stop. Stop the trigger. Here comes it.

Here it comes. Den dao den zin. Say den dao.

Den dao. Den zin. Den zin.

That kind of den zin. That kind of grasping to reality. You know?

Got it? That's the one we're interested in. Why are we interested in that?

Because if you didn't have that, you wouldn't have karma. If you didn't have karma, you'd be an arhat. If you...

Could you get to be an arhat and not have a certain kind of perception? That's how we got here. Got it?

Okay? Got to remember why we're here. Okay.

As for our own system, we say... And that's because you can eliminate it on a nge sum du. Direct perception.

That... None of the three elements in an act of feeling is real. Okay?

Alright? That's our position. Come to realize...

And it's not just some academic thing, you know? We have challenges all day. Unpleasant things happen to us all day.

All day where you get out of bed because you want something. There's depressed people who never get out of bed. I know a very wealthy person who has bouts of depression.

She doesn't get out of bed. She has a bad depression day, she doesn't get out of bed. Why?

She doesn't want anything. She has no hope for anything in the day. The reason you and me swing the leg off the bed, even if it's 2 p.m. two days after it's okay, is because you're...

No, you're hoping for something. You want something. You want something.

You think something will happen today. You know? Like maybe they'll have a good dessert at the class or something.

You know? And, okay. And then you have to struggle to see how the thing you want and me wanting it and the wanting itself is all a projection of how I treated people in the past.

That's all. That's all. Let's go.

Are we telling up or down? Up. Why?

Who said that? That's not. Because we're in the wrong loop.

If you're in the wrong loop, I mean, you're going to be going up most of the time, right? Hopefully. Here we go.

One, two, three. One, two, three. So heavy prenasal on the last two words.

Mingyur, right? Open vowel before a prenasal. Say Mingyur.

If you're from East of that and you're like a Kagyu from calm, Mingyur. Mingyur. You got to do it.

Mingyur. Okay. Then you'll talk right.

All right. Here we go. I'm not dissing the Kagyus, but just a comment.

Okay. And you can, too. Because in deke, what's the word, what's ke mean?

Language. Deke means the same sort of part is expressed in the following word. Okay.

And you can, too, because this idea is also expressed in the words, which are probably from the same text, right? Mm. Okay.

Mm. Mm. Okay.

That's all. It's worth checking someday on your own if he's covered the three elements of an active feeling in those lines. And he has, but it's a little subtle.

Okay. Mm. Yeah.

We have a critique even in the wrong room. He gets to do a little super poem ahead of time. I don't know why.

Okay. I guess we're just being nice. Okay.

Okay. But let me explain something first. When you see emptiness directly, do you permanently remove any mental afflictions?

What? How many? How many?

It's three. Some texts say two, but it's really three. What?

Sorry? Oh. Forget those other texts.

But... I mean the big ones. Intellectual.

Yeah. Okay. So anyway, you don't doubt the path anymore.

You don't believe in weird kinds of morality where you would stab yourself or sit in the middle of four fires and burn yourself. But the big one that we're talking about here is what Mercedes-Benz said, is that you no longer intellectually believe that what you're seeing is real in the way you used to think. But as she said, just after the direct perception of emptiness, you come back to seeing things that way.

You still see things that way. That's called... So that's a distinction between, say, kundak...

kundak... and genge. genge.

kundak... kundak... genge.

genge. Kundak means as a result of a process of mental, of intellectual processing. Okay?

Kundak means that. Vikalpa in Sanskrit. You know, this is intellectual.

Someone asks you, is what you're seeing real? Is everything in your life so far real? And before seeing emptiness directly, you'd say, of course, it is.

You know? Then you see emptiness directly. And you see that you have not had a correct perception in your life for a second.

No perception in your entire life. You know, 64%, finger snap if you want to, you know, 64, you know, multiplied times that, multiplied times 60, multiplied times 60, multiplied times 24, multiplied times 365, multiplied by a number of times, years you've been alive. I don't know, a billion perceptions or something.

Not one was correct. As wrong as slamming the brakes on because you thought it was two cute little bunnies crossing the road and it was just two leaves blowing across the road. As wrong as that.

We saw two cute, really, really cute little bunnies on the way here. They were playing in the road. And, but if it had just been two leaves and the wind was just blowing them and you slammed on the brakes and the person next to you banged their head on the windshield or something and then you saw it was two leaves, you'd feel foolish, right?

Just that foolish, we have been every single perception in our life. Just that foolish. Okay?

Just that crazy. Just that wrong. And then all our reactions wrong.

You know? All the brake slamming. You know, all the blaming other people for the water on the bathroom floor.

You know? Have been just as wrong. You know?

Blaming other people for our problems. Constantly. So anyway, an Arya has this, they, Jatopi, I say they come out of the direct perception of emptiness.

They, they have this last, fleeting thought, God, that's the first correct thing I ever saw in my life. And then boom, they're back to seeing things wrong again. And they can't help it.

Okay? That's called, Lenge. Say Lenge.

So Lenge is inborn or innate tendency to see things the wrong way. And they come back to that. But if you ask them on a good day, not when they just had a fight with somebody, you know, do you, do you still believe what you, you're acting, your behavior seems to indicate that you still think things are real in the way before you saw emptiness.

And you say, yeah I know that, I just can't control myself. Yeah, and they say, well, do you understand that what you're seeing is wrong? I mean, in a good day, on a good moment, just after, you know, some good chocolate chip cookies or something, do you understand that you were seeing things wrong for, you know, 28 years or something, then you saw them correctly for 20 minutes, and now ever since then you've been seeing them wrong again.

And they say, yeah I understand that. So that means they don't have kunta. Okay?

They don't have the intellectual belief that what they see is real. They know that. On a good moment they remember.

Okay? Whether they act on it is another question. Because they didn't remove the other 83,997 mental afflictions that they have.

Okay? But zenge, did they get rid of? If you ask them, did you get rid of your innate tendency to see things as real, they could honestly say, no, because I'm seeing that right now.

Okay? Anytime I'm out of the direct perception of emptiness, I go back to seeing things that way. And in fact, to become an arhat is to stop that.

Got it? Okay. Sort of.

Okay. Got away with that. Someone comes and says, the meaning of all these lines of scripture is to say something about the state of wisdom where without relying on an understanding that things have no nature.

And you realize that people are devoid of any self-standing. I split the sentence, right? Because it's already hard enough.

And that's a translator's trick that you have to learn. You just break it out into pieces. Because you can't just go on for a whole paragraph in English.

It gets confusing. Say again? Yeah.

Good. The meaning is always to say something about the state of wisdom where without relying on an understanding this wisdom allows you to eliminate within yourself the intellectual forms of mental structure. We could say learned forms.

But not those which are innate from birth, let's say. Question being, if you come to see that you don't have... You know, something bad happens in your life.

Maybe a relationship breaks up or something. So, does it help to understand that we're not in current control of what's happening to us? Yeah, it's comforting.

To some extent, it's comforting. For a while. It prevents you from murdering the other party for a while.

I mean, it keeps you happy for... It keeps you out of trouble for a while. Look, don't feel so bad.

This stuff happens. And people... You just can't control the things that happen.

They just happen. You know, you go to somebody, a marriage counselor, and you'll say, I have this problem. And they'll say, look, you just...

Things happen, and they're out of our control. So just chill. Chill for a while.

What else are you going to do? You know? You think if you shoot them they're going to love you?

You know? Let it go. You know, let it go.

There's nothing you can do. You know? That's just life.

Things happen, you know? And then... So for a while, reshi, right?

For a while, your mind is, okay, I can't... I can't do anything about it. It means I can't do anything about it, right?

You just chill for a while. And what we said to the guy was, oh, by the way, yeah, and he was saying, if you could learn to chill that way at your death, then you would not trigger your karma. And we said, it's not enough to chill at your death that way.

It's not enough. It won't... It won't stop the karmas from being triggered.

So then, what did we say to him? Look, that... that chill thing works for the time being.

Munsum. Yeah. The gross forms of your...

your anger and your being upset, the gross forms will be... will be removed. Reshi.

For a while. Two problems there. For a while, and only the obvious forms of your anger at the other person will be stopped for a while.

But what's the implication? Yeah, yeah. They'll come back, and the underlying bitterness is still there, and you know that.

In a situation like that, yeah, okay, I can control myself in public especially, but the underlying bitterness is still there. You know what I mean? And...

and that's just the way it goes, right? Because it's not an antidote. It's not a...

it's not a complete antidote for that mental affliction, for those bad feelings, for the hurt and the pain and the anger. It's not enough. It won't stop them.

It will suppress them. Then he comes and gives another proposal. He's giving another proposal.

He says, I understand what you said about the thing about for a while and the obvious forms, but how about if we divided it into... if instead we divided it into like learned forms of behavior or intellectual forms of misunderstanding, and then the ones you carry with you into this life, which are much harder to remove, right? What if we made the division like that?

Like, understanding that you're not in control is enough to stop your... your intellectual struggling with the situation. You know?

It's enough to stop that kind of anger that you're aware of. In this life. But it's not enough to stop the tendency for anger that you carry with you as birth, as you're born.

He tries to make a different division, right? Especially with misunderstanding. Especially with misunderstanding.

Like the Arya, the new Arya, the baby Arya, he still... he doesn't have... he doesn't believe that what he sees is real anymore.

But he still sees it that way. Got it? He still has the inborn problem.

He doesn't have the intellectual problem. Got it? So he's trying to make this kind of distinction here.

Oh, if you understand you're not in control, intellectually you'll be okay. Even though you'll still have a habit of doing something wrong from your past life. Got it?

Okay? Let's just do this part. One, two, three.

Okay. Be careful with the... Now listen.

Listen, okay? Say, Now say, Little N before the J. So, means to do and it's the most common verb in most languages.

Right? Next to is. But when you put a prenasal in front of it and you change it to njepa, what does it mean?

To make, to divide. To divide something. Okay?

Jepa. Like, gojepa, go means door. What do you think gojepa means?

Open the door. Okay? Divide the door.

You see? They say, gojeda, gojeda, open door for me. Okay?

It doesn't mean make a door. That's gojepa. Got it?

Say, gojepa, gojepa, gojepa. The first one was open the door, goj, and the second was goj, without the prenasal. So prenasals are important.

They're not just some kind of goofing around. And if you don't know them, then you will sound like a German talking about inexpensive and a certain kind of car. Cheap and a cheap.

No, because they don't have a J. You see, there's a distinction. Different languages have different problems that way.

You know? Car, pen, cup. You know, what country do I come from?

Okay. No, because they don't have an aspirated equivalent normally. They don't say pen or car.

They say pen or car. Okay? Alright.

And we sound the same to a Tibetan. You know? We sound like, what are you trying to tell me?

You want me to make a door or open a door? Just tell me what you want. I'll do it.

You know? Either way, I'll do it. But just say it right.

You know? And if you don't know about prenasals, you can't. Okay.

But making this kind of distinction too is something mistaken. Kepa usually means, it can mean feature. It can mean especially.

And in odd cases, it can mean distinction, to make a distinction. Kepa, to divide a distinction. Because the fact is that this kind of realization allows one to eliminate what happened?

Eliminate. Rishik? Yeah, for the time being.

Both the innate form of the idea where one holds the person to be both self-standing and substantial. I'm going to do this for clarity, right? The manifest.

And to eliminate the seeds. And it is seeds for both. It's the same.

I'd have to put this here, I think. Let's put it this way. You came into this life with a certain degree of belief in control, right?

You were born with a certain degree of belief in control. But you had some control over what was going on, right? You came into life with that.

Small children cry. They want something, they can't get it, they cry. They reach for something.

And they fail and they cry. So they, in reaching, you know they have some belief in control, right? They believe that they can control the event that's happening around them.

And they cry as a sign of what? It's a realization of the lack of control, really. If they had, if you give them 50 or so years to think it out, you know like, maybe just reaching for mom is not enough to get mom.

You know? Something else has to happen. So that beginning as a child, you come into this life with some degree of belief in control.

And then over the course of your life, that belief should naturally wane. Who said wane? That's nice.

What's the Hebrew? No. No.

That belief hopefully should wane. You should get less upset as years go by about fuck-ups in your life. There should be some kind of realization after 30, 40, 50 years that you really don't have the control you thought you had.

So we can divide the idea that you have control into like the kind of ideas of control that you came into this life with and then some unfortunate new ideas of control that you picked up in this life. The first are called innate. The second are called learned.

Learned kinds of behavior. Oftentimes your friends, the people you hang out with, influence you negatively. And you begin to have more problems about control than you had when you came into this life.

You learn new wrong ideas about control. Right? Those are called kundak.

And then the other are called hengge. So, you know, hopefully you come in with a bunch of hengges and you reduce them and you don't hang out with people who are foolish and pick up more kundak ones. Right?

Like that. So he's trying to say that if you can come to an understanding that you don't have control, could we say that that will allow you to stop learning new misunderstandings about having control but it doesn't affect the ones you came into your life with? Do you think he's correct?

I'll say it again. He's saying as your life goes by and you learn that you don't have control, you'll be able to lessen your new ideas that you have control. But that in itself won't affect the ones you came into this life with.

Do you think it's correct? I'll say it one more time. Someone demonstrates to what do you call it?

Irrefutably you know, your last boyfriend or something demonstrates to you irrefutably that you're not in control. You can't control events. You didn't want them to do what they did and they did it.

And you told them and they did it anyway and it's out of your control. It's obviously out of your control. So you go to a Buddhist class and Rob's teaching the crane thing.

And he says, look, you know, it's like this guy up in the glass box who controls this big crane that's making a building, right? And we always assume that we're like the guy in the glass box controlling the crane. But what if nobody's controlling the crane?

What if the crane just does what it wants to do? What if you don't have control over what's happening in your body? So you come home from that class and you say, he's right, you know.

I don't have control. I saw that with my last boyfriend. It's true, I don't have control.

He was right. Rob was right. You came into life with certain ideas of control.

You learned new ideas of control in your life. Then you went to Rob's class. Which one will it affect?

Yeah. Shen Lu. The other guy is saying it will only affect the ones you learned newly in this life.

And it won't affect the ones you came into this life with. What do you think? Both.

Who said both? Yeah. In our translation, when it says equally and equally, what happened to the second equally?

Oh, right. Equally. Yeah.

Yeah. That's our wrong loop. What Rosa said is our wrong loop.

That's our system. If a boyfriend really smashes you in a big breakup, you know, and then you're like, now I'm convinced I don't have control. It should affect the ideas you came into the life with and the ideas that you picked up in this life equally.

More or less. The first kind will be harder to get rid of. but for a few hours after his class, the manifest forms of your belief that you have control are, they're stopped.

They're stopped. Got it? Then we say, so he says, he's still trying to defend his idea.

If you can see you don't have control, it's enough to stop your mental afflictions. Okay? And if you wanted to make a distinction, Mr. Wrong Loop, about it's affecting some, what is the distinction we made?

What did we say about the power of seeing you're not in control and not going further? Just going home and saying, look, people do it, right? I went to the marriage counselor.

He said, just chill. What can you do? What can you do?

If you call them, they'll get mad. If you don't call them, they'll leave you. What can you do?

Just chill. You know? So he's saying, he said, that's enough to stop your mental afflictions forever.

Reach Nirvana. We said it's not enough. But how did we qualify it?

We made a distinction. We, what? We said, for a while, and the manifest forms, it will eliminate.

But not the seed. Equally, okay? Now he's coming back and saying, I want to make a different distinction.

You know? You can affect the wrong ideas you picked up in this life, but you can't affect the wrong ideas that you carried from your last life. We said, come on.

I mean, it'll affect your ideas about having control. Whether they come from your last life or whether you learned them in this life, it'll affect them. Right?

Equally. To understand that you're not in control. And it will equally not affect, what?

Yeah, the seeds of your, the seeds of either one. Okay? The deeper forms.

It won't affect them. Got it? Our distinction's still whole.

Forget your new little distinction. Got it? If you have a good idea in this life about not having control, it'll help you for a while with the manifest forms.

Whether those were ideas that you came into this life with, or whether they are new ideas that you picked up in this life. And, just thinking to chill because you can't control stuff, is not going to stop the seeds for your mental circuit. You'll still have the bitterness.

You know. You can get over the, man, you can not blow up at them in a crowd. At a party.

You can knock over and slap them. You know? You can control yourself.

But in your heart, right, you're like, you know, like this. You know? You can't stop the seed.

Right? But, what would the wrong look say? If you wanted to stop the seed, if you wanted to be able to sit in a party with them and not get angry, what?

Huh? See that the breakup, the bitterness, comes from you. They didn't do anything.

They're an instrument of your own deeds. They are the stick. Right?

They're not the other guy. The other guy is you. Right?

They're just the instrument of your own karma. Coming back to you. You know?

They're just the, they're just the expression of the karma. They didn't make the karma. You made the karma.

Got it? You, you created them. So what are you going to do?

Get mad at them? You know? You're going to, you're going to go, if somebody hits you with a baseball bat, then what should you do?

Take that bat, kick it, hit it, smash it, you know? Give me that bat. You're going to hit me?

No, I just want to get the bat. You know? And you're like, kicking it, and stabbing it, and hitting it, you know?

And then the guy's like, the guy with the bat, he's like, what are you doing? You know? And he's like, I'm getting back at the bat, you know?

And you're like, you mean you're not going to hit me? And he's like, no, you didn't do anything. It was just the bat, right?

It's the bat that hit me, it's not you. Right? It's crazy, but we do it all day.

We do it all day. Anytime you have a feeling, you're doing it. He's not saying you just do it when you're upset at your old partner.

He's saying, you do it every single moment of your life. The tiny preferences of your life are expressions of our ignorance. It's a little too hot in here.

I wish you'd turn down the volume, you know? My butt hurts a little bit, you know? No, these are all equally ignorant deeds, and equally ignorant karma.

You know, you're blaming the floor, you're blaming whoever at Diamond Mountain didn't get the right carpet, or who left the door open, or you're blaming the guy who does the mic, or you're blaming Geshe Michael. And there's only one person to blame. You're beating up bats all day, you know?

So am I. It's really stupid. Okay.

I feel good after this class for like half an hour. Okay. So you must not be talking about the...

No, it would be nice, right? I don't think it works. I understand what you're saying.

Oh, equally not enough. Right. Yeah, you're right.

It's not easy to say it properly in any case, right? I'm going to see. We can do snacks, if anyone's got snacks.

Who was number 15? Schlepper. I mean, no?

Tiggy? Where's Tiggy? No?

Rain check? We'll rain check it. Okay.

Okay. All right. This is really important.

This was, I think, the toughest question in my Geshe debate. And some big shot Geshe who was the abbot of the nunnery in Dharamsala, and I don't know his name, but he came down for the debate from Dharamsala. And he asked me this question and he said, so do you have to understand first that your parts are not Michael or do you have to understand first that Michael is not Michael?

You know? The person or the parts, right? Tumbo, the skandhas.

Do you have to understand that your body and mind have no nature to understand that Darcy has no nature? How does it go when you see emptiness? When you want to see emptiness?

Should you be working on understanding that your ear has no nature of being an ear or should you just go straight to Julie and work on Julie? Right? So what's he just saying here?

So here's a here's a scriptural reference. You know? What's he saying?

Yeah, work on when you are trying to grasp it, work on the parts first. Okay? Like what would be a a part to start with?

Yeah, that's what he's saying. What are the five heaths? Your body, your physical body.

And in some schools you expand that to the world around you. Very beautiful. The forms.

Your feelings. Your tendency to distinguish between people. This is good.

This is bad. This is wrong. This is right.

I like this person. I don't like this person. Number four?

All the other stuff about you. And number five? Your raw awareness.

The fact that you're aware. You know, I hate the word consciousness because it doesn't really Do you have a consciousness? Yeah, where is it?

I don't know. You know, but are you, you know, are you a blob of clay or are you perceiving anything right now? Are you, did Muhammad Ali just knock you out or are you conscious right now?

And get used to thinking of the last heath that way. I'm goddamn, I'm conscious. You know?

I can see the sky. I can feel something. I can hear things.

You know, I'm not dead in a box somewhere. Okay? Got it?

Thank you. Got it? So he says, if you want to see that, if you want to understand yourself, then understand first your parts and why not start with feeling.

Which we said last week, I think. Pumbaa Namnay, Pumbaa Namnay, Tso Adang, Dushan Loshi Pumbaa Shak. First chapter of the Abhidharma says that the reason they put those two heaths separately when there's really 52 mental functions, why take out two of them and make them Pumbaa Loshi Shak?

Why make them separate? Yeah. Because they're the cause of all tension, fighting, and the cause of samsara.

Hoi Gyurgyur, and Gyurgyur. Okay. Yeah.

Let's just say that if you want to. Good, you're right. Not beautiful.

Good. That was rather important. Okay.

Okay, read. One, two, three. De Ma To Na Tan Sa Ki Da Me So Pa To Mi Nyu Pa Dang And if you're not, and if you don't, and if you don't realize that, then you won't be able to realize fully the fact that I'm going to try an experimental translation.

Let's see how it goes. Okay. Play with it.

Play with it. He switched from Rang Shin Me Pa to Dag Me Pa. He switched from Rang Shin Me Pa to Dag Me Pa.

I'll give you an example of Rang Shin Me Pa. Is a fire hot? What's the definition of fire?

Sa Shi Se Pa Me Tse Ni, right? Sa Shi Se Pa Me Tse Ni Me In Ba Ta So it's not the definition of fire? No.

You're going to have to take your laptop on the big round now. Uh oh. Anyway, it is.

You can say, you're right though. You can say that. You can say that.

Me Tse Ni. Okay. So is a fire hot?

Yeah. That's the definition of a fire. I mean, that is the defining quality of a fire.

That's the nature of a fire to be hot. So can we say that fire has a nature? It's hot.

Right? But he said fire doesn't have a nature. We just said that.

Rang Luke said that. These things have no nature of their own. Okay, okay, okay.

You guys are getting good. Okay. This place is going to be no fun in a while.

What's that mean for the rest of you? Yeah. Of its own.

No nature of its own. You have to say of its own. Does it have a nature?

Yes. It's hot. Where did the nature come from?

Coming from me. You know, I hurt somebody with that kind of pain. Therefore, fire has the power to hurt me.

If I had never hurt anyone and I stuck my hand in the fire, what would happen? Nothing would happen. Like that.

Or it would feel good. Alright? So does fire have a nature?

Does fire have a nature of its own? It's a fire fire. If a fire is not hot, is it fire?

We've established that a fire is not hot. We said fire has no nature. Does fire have any nature of its own?

So it's not hot. It's not hot from its own side. Okay, so it's not hot from its own side.

So fire is not fire. So it's true that fire could not be fire. If it were cold.

Then it wouldn't be fire. It wouldn't be fire. So we draw a distinction, get the distinction between Rangshinme and Dakme.

Got it? Rangshinme, say Rangshinme, and Dakme. Rangshin means a nature of its own.

A quality of its own. Does fire have a quality of its own? That's tricky.

I don't know. Suppose you say it doesn't have a nature of its own. Well then it's a fire fire.

You have to say no. From that point of view you have to say no. If you understand that fire doesn't have a nature of its own, would that lead you to understand that a fire is not a fire?

Necessarily. Yeah. Yeah.

Got it? You could go from one to the other. Is fire hot on its own?

Is a fire fire on its own? That's all. So one would lead to the other.

Got it? Got it? If you understand about yourself that you don't have a nature of being happy from your own side, could that lead you to understand that you don't have a nature of being yourself from your own side?

Which means you could be made of light. Got it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Got it? Yeah.

Yeah. You're right. It's a beautiful...

Let's see where he goes. You're right. You're absolutely right.

I was hoping someone would mention that. You're absolutely right. Did anybody say directly in here?

He just said realize. He didn't say directly. Okay?

That may be a clue. That may be a way to work that out. Let's see where he goes.

What Bert brought up is a big, big, big question. In the end, when you come out of seeing emptiness directly for the first time, it'll hit you. When I become a Buddha, they won't call me Michael.

It's something about me that hits you first. That's what he's saying. The first emptiness you perceive directly is the emptiness of Michael or Mercedes or Darcy or whatever.

Got it? What Bert said is true. But to reach that point, you better work on your feelings first.

Got it? Indirectly. Okay.

Because you've got to start somewhere, right? And your last breakup is not a bad place. Because that's where...

No, that's your heaviest mental afflictions right now. Usually. Yeah?

Okay. Let's do it. One, two, three.

Got it? He's making that same step from denzin to dangzin. Okay?

Say denzin. Dangzin. Holding it to be real and then holding it to be itself.

If you can stop holding it as being real, you can move on to seeing that it's not itself. And there's this... What he's bringing up is that classical division into say chuukidangme, kansakidangme, chuukidangme, kansakidangme.

Like if you were at the Gyoshi Thupten Rinzhin classes, it's in your brain cells right? the fact that your parts are not your parts, the fact that your feelings are not your feelings, right? And then the fact that you are not yourself.

Got it? So when they speak of the emptiness of things as opposed to the emptiness of people, they're talking about not just things in general, they're talking about parts of people, parts of people, right? So, do we divide emptiness into two kinds?

Yes. What are they? The emptiness of stuff, chö, things, and the emptiness of people, kang sa, right?

But in that context, meaning, chö dang kang sa kyi den dang zin nyi su ye we. Nyi se nyi su ye we. You always introduce it that way in a debate.

I'm not talking about dharmas, chö, things. I'm talking about things in the context of the emptiness of people and things. In that context is things, things.

Just things. No, it's the parts of the person. Got it?

Got it? So two kinds of emptiness, what? Emptiness of the person and the emptiness of their parts.

Which one do you have to see first while you're studying emptiness? Start with your feelings because they're so up front. They're so up front.

Start with your feelings. He didn't say start with your discrimination, start with your jealousy. Well, but he's saying start with your feelings because that's so much, that's where your suffering is right now.

You know, that's where your real pain is. Start with something that's intimate. There's nothing more intimate than your feelings, right?

And then you can work up to understanding that Geshe Michael is not Geshe Michael. Okay? And then that'll trigger the direct perception of the emptiness of Geshe Michael first.

Yeah. So it's kind of like, this is beautiful, okay? And if that is the tendency to see, then until such time, never be able your desire and other mental.

That's really the crux of this whole argument for the whole last, like, 30 pages or something. He's saying, until you see that Geshe Michael is not Geshe Michael, you'll never be able to stop being jealous. Never.

And it's not enough to understand you're not in control. You can understand that Geshe Michael is not in control, and then 10 minutes later you'll get jealous again. Okay?

But if you could ever understand that Geshe Michael is not Geshe Michael, you could stop your jealousy forever. Got it? That's why we're having this class, and that's why Diamond Mountain exists.

That's why we're all here, right? You want to stop your jealousy and your other, you want to stop suffering, right? Mental suffering is much worse than the physical.

To have a mental affliction is the most unpleasant thing in the world, and that's why we're here. And he's telling us, right here, in this sentence, right? Of all the stuff we've heard at Diamond Mountain, in this sentence he's saying, until the day you see Geshe Michael is not Geshe Michael, you will suffer.

You'll still have those jealousy and other mental afflictions. No hope unless you can see that Geshe Michael is not Geshe Michael. That's the wrong look.

That's the guts of the wrong look of this whole book. That's pretty powerful, right? I think we stopped.

I think we started a bit there. Yeah? That's a good place.

In the text, right? And then we'll start a debate. So I was thinking that the lemons...

Let's do this side this time, okay? So Geku is... Rene is the Geku.

You know the Geku's job? You guys get these two rows facing each other, like in two minutes, and you have to kick them if they don't move, and stuff like that. Like fast.

And then the lemons are going to be at the end. And me and Venerable Chuky is going to make lemonade. Somebody else needs to run the camera.

Okay. First we have to... We have to pay our respects to this sort of hopelessly incompetent challengers here.

Jimba, Shira, Yimbi, Chir. The perfection of wisdom... Well, let's say Shira, Jimba, Yimbi, Chir.

The perfection of wisdom is the perfection of Yimbi, I guess. Chir, Chir. Chir, Chir.

Oh, you say it's not? Shira, Jimba, Yimbi, Chir. Shira, Jimba, Yimbi, Chir.

Yimbi, Chir.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So I guess wisdom is not the... I guess the perfection of wisdom is not the perfection of giving. Chir, Chir.

[Speaker 2]
Chir, Chir.

[Speaker 1]
Shira, Jimba, Yimbi, Chir. So I guess the direct perception of emptiness is not wisdom. Chir, Chir.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
Going down. Check it. Dongyi, Tofa, Shira, Jimba, Ta.

So I guess the direct perception of emptiness is a kind of wisdom. Duh. Duh.

Duh. Duh. Okay.

Sa, Gamboa, La, Shira, Paro, Chir, Chimba, Ta. So I guess it's at the first Bodhisattva level that you perfect in its fullest form the perfection of wisdom. Takwan Dru.

Dongyi, Tofa, Shira, Paro, Chir, Chimba, Yimbi, Chir. Because seeing emptiness directly is the perfection of wisdom. Good.

He said it doesn't necessarily follow. So just to check on that, can you state in English the reverse? Kabbalo.

Kabbalo. Give us the Kabba. Give us the Kabba that you don't agree to.

Just because blah, blah, blah doesn't mean blah, blah, blah. Right. Just because just because the direct perception of emptiness is a kind of wisdom doesn't mean is the perfection of wisdom is the perfection of wisdom doesn't mean doesn't mean that the that the thing that is perfected at the first Bodhisattva level is the perfection of wisdom.

Good. Say it again. Louder.

Just because the thing just because the direct perception of emptiness is the perfection of wisdom doesn't mean that the thing that is perfected at the first Bodhisattva level is the perfection of wisdom. Good. So, Umachidin la toni topa tupa la maya madha So I guess in the Umachidin the monastic textbook we're studying on emptiness on the middle way right now must only present the direct perception of emptiness in the sixth chapter and in connection with the sixth Bodhisattva level.

Because there'd be no reason for an authoritative monastic textbook to go in launch into a long discussion on the direct perception of emptiness in a chapter devoted to the perfection of giving. Jawa may be chi Jawa may be chi Because there's no connection between the first Bodhisattva level and this big discussion about the direct perception of emptiness. That comes in the sixth chapter.

Peanut Keller says, Tak ma drup. Tak ma drup.

[Speaker 2]
Jawa. Jawa.

[Speaker 1]
So there must be some reason why the book in the last twenty pages has been talking about perceptions of emptiness when it has nothing to do with the first Bodhisattva level.

[Speaker 2]
It's not the subject.

[Speaker 1]
So there is a reason why the book would bring up the direct perception of emptiness in the chapter devoted to the first Bodhisattva level. Because you can't have the perfection of wisdom without seeing emptiness directly. Good.

So, because you can't have the perfection of giving in its full form without seeing emptiness directly, right? Then that's why the book brought up the direct perception of emptiness in the last twenty pages or so. He's been talking for the last twenty pages or so about how the perception of giving is connected to the perfection of wisdom.

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
Teacher. Why the hell in the last twenty pages have we been talking about this direct perception of emptiness? Does it have anything to do with the perfection of giving?

Anything to do with the first Bodhisattva level? We'll give you a clue. Yes, it does.

So, it's because we're trying to draw the distinction between... We're trying to prove why a Bodhisattva on the first Bodhisattva level outshines a listener or a self-made Buddha.

[Speaker 2]
Arhat.

[Speaker 1]
So, just do it in English. You do it in English. Just recheck it.

Are you telling me...

[Speaker 2]
Are you telling me... That the whole reason that we talked about the direct perception of emptiness in the last twenty pages is just because we are trying to see how a Bodhisattva of the first level outshines lower Arhats. Just because?

[Speaker 1]
Well, mostly because. Mainly because. Mainly.

Duh. Duh. Okay.

Did you get that? Why are we talking about... Why are we talking about why you have to see emptiness to get rid of...

Why are we talking about why you have to see emptiness directly to get rid of your mental afflictions in a chapter that's not talking about them? Because we're trying to show that the distinction between Bodhisattvas on the first level and self-made Buddha and listener Arhats is not what they saw. Yeah.

Got it? Okay. Okay.

We... For... For over four years we have been on the first line of this book.

And all that line says was that a person who just reached the first Bodhisattva level what? So can... Outshines.

Outshines everybody else. Even...

[Speaker 2]
Of the listener...

[Speaker 1]
Of the listener Arhats.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Like if you reach the first Bodhisattva level you are already superior to a person who has reached Nirvana and got rid of all their mental afflictions forever. What was the metaphors used in the text?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, the king's child. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
The king... The child of the king from the first hour of his birth silky number outshines who? All the ministers.

All the... The secretary of state. Like that.

In a kingdom you know, if... What's his name? Obama had a new child then that child would be...

Would have seniority over Mrs. Clinton. Within the first minute of his or her birth. Got it?

Just by virtue of being who they are. In the same way... Bodhisattvas outshine Arhats in the first moment.

Lower Arhats in the first moment of their birth. Yeah, and the implication is look, how long did it take Hillary Clinton to get there? Like, she worked so hard.

She campaigned so hard. She went through all these things, you know. And then she got to be secretary of state, right?

Like, she worked many, many years to get there. And then Obama has a new kid and then in five minutes they're already there. Meaning, what?

[Speaker 2]
That the...

[Speaker 1]
Someone reaches? The Bodhisattva... First Bodhisattva level?

Already. Within two minutes they are superior to these guys who worked their whole lives to get rid of their mental afflictions. For thousands of lifetimes.

Billions of lifetimes. They already outshine them. And we say...

The way that a First Level Bodhisattva outshines these Lower Arhats is that... You go.

[Speaker 2]
Is the person... Director? Yeah, is that they saw...

Directly. That's a new one.

[Speaker 1]
So why... Why does a person... So the question comes up.

The book says they outshine them. Lord Buddha said they outshine them. And we have a theory.

Chucky and I have a theory. It's because the Bodhisattva has seen the emptiness directly. And the Lower Arhats have not.

Because the direct perception of emptiness is like the coolest thing that could ever happen to you. And what gets you on the First Bodhisattva Level is your perceived emptiness. Is that it?

So you don't need to see emptiness directly to reach the first bodhisattva level.

[Speaker 2]
So you do have to see emptiness directly to reach the first bodhisattva level. So that's what makes you special. If you have bodhicitta, then you reach the first bodhisattva level.

[Speaker 1]
Because that's what makes you special. Just because that's what makes you special doesn't mean that you reach the first bodhisattva level. So we're not talking about why people at the first bodhisattva level are special.

So we are talking about why people at the first bodhisattva level are special. And it's not having bodhicitta that makes them special, because you can get that before the first bodhisattva level.

[Speaker 2]
That's what makes you special.

[Speaker 1]
Therefore, it's got to be the direct perception of emptiness that makes you special when you reach the first bodhisattva level.

[Speaker 2]
But lower arhats have already seen emptiness directly. But lower arhats have already seen emptiness directly. But haven't lower arhats already seen selflessness directly?

[Speaker 1]
Well, let's go back to that. By the way, that's a good one. And then she'd have to ask you, what school are you in?

It's a question of schools. You're now, she's prasangika and you're svatantrika. And never the two shanis.

So it's not true that what makes you special at the first bodhisattva level is seeing emptiness directly. So, are there other people who haven't reached the first bodhisattva level who have seen emptiness directly?

[Speaker 2]
Arhats on the listener and self-made buddha tracks, for example.

[Speaker 1]
So, if you're an arhat on a lower track, you must have seen emptiness directly. Teacher. Why?

Because otherwise you couldn't have eliminated your mental afflictions. Got it? What did he say?

Otherwise you could not have eliminated your mental afflictions and become an arhat. That's why we're talking about this now. Got it?

We're not in the chapter on wisdom. We didn't get to it yet. We did not get to Chandrakirti's discussion of emptiness yet.

We're just talking about why somebody outshines another person. Right? Got it?

We're not even to the main subject yet. All this stuff has just been for them. Right?

Are you telling me that to get rid of your mental afflictions, you have to see emptiness directly? That's the wrong look of this whole book so far, right? Sure.

Why? Sure. Why?

Prove it. Prove it in any way you want. Because we just had like 50 different ways to do it.

The sutra on the ten levels says that the way in which bodhisattvas outshine arhats is not that bodhisattvas have seen emptiness directly and lower arhats have not, but rather a different thing. That wasn't the question. Implying that...

What was your quotation?

[Speaker 2]
We asked you a question.

[Speaker 1]
We said, look, do you have to see emptiness directly to get rid of your mental afflictions? You said, yes. You said, right.

Just give me any proof you want for that.

[Speaker 2]
Because as long as you keep holding to self-existent self, me, you're going to make mistakes and have mental afflictions.

[Speaker 1]
As long as you see things as things. So as long as you hold to me, you will have mental afflictions.

[Speaker 2]
Self-existent me. Self-existent me.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. So Lord Buddha, when he popped out of his mother's womb, did not take steps in the four directions and say, I am supreme in this world.

[Speaker 2]
He did. He did.

[Speaker 1]
Did he or didn't he?

[Speaker 2]
He did.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. So... So Lord Buddha must have mental afflictions.

Choo-choo.

[Speaker 2]
Choo-choo.

[Speaker 1]
Lord Buddha. Because Lord Buddha said, I am supreme in this world. So Lord Buddha doesn't hold himself as himself.

Do it. Do it. So Lord Buddha holds himself as somebody else.

[Speaker 2]
Choo-choo.

[Speaker 1]
So Lord Buddha holds himself as neither himself nor somebody else.

[Speaker 2]
Choo-choo.

[Speaker 1]
Choo-choo.

[Speaker 2]
That's not how he says it. He sees himself as himself, just not self-existently himself.

[Speaker 1]
So what is it to hold yourself self-existently as yourself, which is different from holding yourself as yourself? By the way, the defenders can help each other, and they can confer, and that's allowed. We can make fun of them while they do so, like, you know, they can't make up their mind or something.

But you have the right to confer and to agree on your attitude.

[Speaker 2]
So what's the difference between the one and the other? Oh, he sees himself as himself, but he's not seeing himself as... He's seeing himself as himself for a reason.

Right, yeah, he... Didn't say that.

[Speaker 1]
He sees himself as himself for a reason.

[Speaker 2]
There's a... He doesn't see himself as himself independently.

[Speaker 1]
He sees himself as himself because he's projecting himself as himself. Could you run that by us again? What's the difference between Lord Buddha seeing himself as Lord Buddha, and Lord Buddha seeing himself as what you call a self-existing Lord Buddha?

[Speaker 2]
He knows where it comes from, and that not everyone sees it that way. Okay, good.

[Speaker 1]
So if you know where you come from, you don't see yourself as a self-existent self. Wait, you can't say che che to that, because that wasn't just said.

[Speaker 2]
We agree with what we meant. What was that?

[Speaker 1]
Save those arguments for your partner. We would like rather more clarification than that. What it means to see yourself in a wrong way.

How would Ted see Ted in a wrong way that might lead to Ted having a mental figure? Because I know I came from my mommy and I still have mental figures. If I see myself as coming from something other than my own past actions, then I'm seeing myself in a wrong way.

So you don't have to see emptiness to see yourself in the right way. Che che.

[Speaker 2]
Because you only have to see dependent origination to see yourself in the right way.

[Speaker 1]
Because you only have to see that Ted is a projection of Ted to see Ted in the right way.

[Speaker 2]
For the time being. For the time being.

[Speaker 1]
Regime.

[Speaker 2]
Regime.

[Speaker 1]
Let's get her, let's get her. So, just to see that you're not in control would be enough to stop your mental picture forever.

[Speaker 2]
Regime. Regime.

[Speaker 1]
If you were in a monastery and she were a monk, she'd be called Regime for the rest of her life. I'm not telling you my two secret names. Because Regime, it will remove your mental picture.

For the time being. If Ted understanding that Ted is a projection, meaning Ted understanding Ted's dependent origination, is enough to stop Ted's mental picture forever. Sorry, Regime.

For a while. And that stops them forever. Then Ted understanding that Ted's not in control, which is also only for a while, should be enough to stop his mental picture forever.

That's what the scripture says. That's what we've been debating about. Didn't say that.

Didn't say that. The scripture was reciting about the understanding that you're not in control being not enough. It only works for a while.

So we're saying that's the same problem with seeing that Ted's dependent origination. Because it only works for a while. You have to go further and see.

[Speaker 2]
You're home. Halala ta meli-chir.

[Speaker 1]
That leads right into our last question. There is no end. You say.

[Speaker 2]
There is no end to the cycle of suffering.

[Speaker 1]
There is no end to the cycle of suffering. For all living beings.

[Speaker 2]
For all living beings.

[Speaker 1]
Chi-chir. So there is an end to the cycle of suffering for all living beings. Because wisdom stands on two legs and ignorance stands on one.

So wisdom stands on two legs and ignorance stands on one. So wisdom stands on two legs and ignorance stands on one.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Nimo, are you ready? Okay. Thanks.

You know, they tell you in the monastery, when I first went to the debate class, I came back to my teacher, I said, I told Geshe Latha, I said, I didn't understand a single word. Not one word, you know. And he said, keep going.

And I went, year after year I went. And then one day it was just like, oh wow, I just understood everything they said, you know. So I think it's happening.

You're reaching this, what do you call it? You're reaching this critical mass. You are, a lot of people here, you're all getting close to some critical mass, where you're really understanding not just, I mean, both the language, but you get the ideas now.

So I think it's really cool. The next term is going to be something very beautiful, I think. Because you're at some kind of critical mass now.

And I didn't really expect it so soon. So it's kind of beautiful. So, like so, like so.

What are they saying? Sadhu, sadhu, right? Cool.

Let's go.