Вступление на срединный путь (текущий курс, Аризона), занятие 81

[Speaker 1]
It's 1406, what's the thing on the wall say? Sera Chedding. Say Sera Chedding.

That was the name of Sera before it was founded. That was the place where Sera was founded. And he's just going there for the first time, I think.

1406, right? I don't think it's even founded yet. No, it's not founded yet, but he's going to Sera Chedding.

And he just had a retreat with some guy he just met named K. Rup J. And very late in his life, and he met K.

Rup J. And on the spot, he said, let's go do a retreat together. Just us two, you know.

And they did. And then he decided, he came out and he said he would write a book on Arya Nagarjuna's root wisdom, right? Sahasrara.

You know, basically, it's going to be his last word on Madhyamika, his last word on emptiness, right? So he starts writing it. And then something weird happens.

He has a vision of the sky filled with ancient scriptures. It's Madhyamika scriptures. And then he has some experience.

Manjushri comes to him. But then in the middle of writing his commentary on root wisdom, he writes, Okay? He writes The Essence of Eloquence.

Late in his life, about Chang'e, right? Why? And it has to do with what we're doing, right?

We just started a section on Chunjuk Kembo. Say Chunjuk Kembo. Who's Chunjuk Kembo?

What's Chunjuk? What's Charyabhadra? Chunjuk.

Yeah. Bodhisattva Charyabhadra. By?

Master Shantideva. So Kembo normally means? Abbot.

In the old days, it meant your vow master. Before that, it meant just a master. So Chunjuk Kembo is?

Master Shantideva. Okay? We just got into a section by Chunjuk Kembo.

Everything we've been doing up to now, like four and a something years, five years, it was somebody else. Who? Chandrakirti.

Master Chandrakirti, right? So we were here in Chandrakirti on what? It was basically Master Chandrakirti's trying to prove that if you want to get rid of your mental afflictions forever, you must see emptiness.

Okay? So all this took four and something years to prove that if you want to get rid of your anger, if you want to get rid of your jealousy, you must see emptiness directly. Okay?

Then we had Chandrakirti, Master Chandrakirti proving that, and now we're going to have Master Shantideva proving that. Right? So that's how the structure is going.

We just started on to Master Shantideva. But there's something going on here, you know? What was the last thing we were saying about Rob Haggerty up in the crane?

Yeah. Yeah, he doesn't drive the crane, right? So we were talking about one of those big, huge cranes that you use to build a skyscraper, and there's this glass box in the top, and there's this guy with a walkie-talkie, and the people on the ground are saying, lower it 20 feet, and then he lowers it 20 feet.

So he's controlling the crane, right? And then we decided that Rob Haggerty didn't control his body. Like, there will come a time when any person, any of us, you think you control your body.

Say everybody lifts their left arm. Okay, now put your left arm down. Right?

That proves you control your body. Right? But there comes a day when you can't raise your left arm.

Right? You can't control it. You don't have control of your left arm.

Gravity will beat you. You are in a war with gravity. Especially yoga practitioners, you know, like, oh, or ballet dancers, you know, like, I'm in this war with gravity.

Gravity will beat you. I mean, unless you study well. Right?

So gravity will beat everybody. That's one thing an Arya sees. They see gravity beating everybody, including themselves.

So you don't control your left arm. So is the fact that you don't control your left arm, is it empty? Is that emptiness?

Well, let's start back. Let's go through Mahamudra, you know, all the, hi. Let's go through those Mahamudra things, you know, hi.

Number one, you know, you are not going to last forever. Right? You think you're, right?

Isn't that number one? I mean, normally you think things are going to go on forever. Whether it's a partner, or your life, or a building, or a financial condition, you think it's going to last forever.

In your back of your mind, things can last forever. The first stage of Mahamudra is, it's not true. That's not true.

Is the lack of me lasting forever emptiness? No, it's not true emptiness. So let's go to number two.

That's where I can control myself. The first one was Takpa. What is it?

Takchi Rangwan Chendi Dak. Second one is Rangwan Chendi Dak. Do I control myself?

Do I control my arm? No, ultimately I don't. I can't tell you where this top will be tomorrow.

You know, I don't, they say I own it, right? But I can't tell you where it will be tomorrow. If I die tonight and Nyingbo really needs one because he got mucus all over his...

See, it's not in here. But, no, you know, you can't say. You don't know, right?

You don't know where these things will be. You don't own your shirt. You don't even own your shirt or your arm.

Okay, that was number two. What's number three? Is that emptiness?

No. Ah! Let's go there.

He said according to samskara. What school? It's South Tarantica.

The school number two. They believe that. They believe that that's emptiness.

And if you can perceive that, you can remove your... mental afflictions. Does it help to perceive that?

You can't control what your partner is saying today. You can't control it. You can't control your arm.

So how can you control what your partner is saying today? I mean, come on. So don't get upset.

Does that help you remove your mental afflictions? The manifest form. The manifest form.

Temporarily. Temporarily, it helps you like, Okay, I understand. I can't control what they're saying today.

I can convince them. I can talk to them. I can argue with them.

But I can't control what they're saying. I can't control what they're saying after the argument. The argument is supposed to help.

Right? No, really. You think that.

We believe that. That's why we argue. Unless you just like the thing, you know.

So what Arya said is true. The lower tracks, the lower schools. Hinayana.

Or that Hinayana school. Or even some Mahayana schools. Mind only school.

Lower half of the middle way school. They have the wrong ideas about emptiness. They have ideas about emptiness that are not emptiness.

Right? But do they become arhats? What did Lord Buddha say?

I mean, that's what we just spent four years on. Do they become arhats? Do people in the lower tracks become arhats?

They do. They do. So what's the definition of arhat?

Arhat means enemy destroyer. What enemy did they destroy? Oh, so seeing something that wasn't emptiness, they destroyed their mental afflictions.

He just said, didn't he just say that the fact that you can't control your arm is a lower presentation of emptiness? Yeah, he said that was true. It's true.

That's not the South Toronto definition of emptiness? Right? It's not?

They don't describe... Selflessness, emptiness. Okay, let's call it selflessness.

Would they say it's one of the aspects of the noble truth of suffering? Which one might that be? What?

Huh? Okay, so it is emptiness. But...

In their school. Or it's a form of emptiness. You can say that.

Okay, let it go at that. They see a form of emptiness and then they remove their mental afflictions because all schools agree that there can be lower arhats. They can achieve nirvana.

They get rid of their mental afflictions, right? The scriptures don't say that? Would Jetsun Kappa, speaking from the Prasangika point of view, say that there are lower arhats?

Yeah, I mean, we're supposed to avoid that extreme, right? That's a potential problem for us to be a lower arhat, right? Sishikita.

So, you can become an arhat in a lower school. Because they did. We're supposed to avoid that lower school.

We're supposed to not become a lower arhat. We're supposed to work for Mahayana from the beginning, right? That's the idea.

You can become an arhat in a lower school. That's what we just spent like six months proving. All scriptures, everything.

No, every school believes that. All schools believe that. Prasangika believes that.

There are lower arhats. We're supposed to avoid that extreme. So, sishikita meata.

So, there's no such thing as a lower arhat? I mean, it's not something we're supposed to avoid? So, there is such a thing as a lower arhat.

Yeah, so they got to Nirvana by seeing emptiness. They got rid of their mental afflictions by seeing something that was not emptiness. What do you mean, camera-wise here?

What do you mean, camera-wise here? What are you talking about? So, are they lower arhats?

Are they lower arhats because they belong to a lower school, perhaps? They're Hinayana arhats. The first two, Rangyel and Nyenter, listener and self-made Buddhists, they're lower school, lower track.

They're lower track. Okay, so lower track. Did they achieve Nirvana?

So, did they see emptiness in their track? In their track. So, they're not lower arhats?

Because they didn't perceive emptiness in their track. No, the scriptures say they do. They do.

[Speaker 2]
They did.

[Speaker 1]
But they're lower arhats. What are you talking about? They're lower.

We're supposed to avoid it. We're supposed to stay on Mahayana track, right? That's the whole point.

You have Bodhisattva vows about that. Come on. You know?

So, all these ideas about emptiness. I'm not going to last forever. I can't control my arm.

What is it? Me and this event didn't come from a separate seed. What is the other one?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This couldn't be seen different ways by different people. And this is not it coming half from me and half from it.

So, those are all forms of emptiness. They see that. They remove their mental afflictions and they become arhats.

Because there exists lower arhats. So, lower arhats exist. So, they're in a lower school.

So, they believe in their school. Or they wouldn't be in that school. Or they wouldn't be in that school.

So, they belong to the lower school. So, they accept the lower school's idea of emptiness. Huh?

They graduate, so they're not lower. Who said that? So, they're not a lower arhat.

So, they're not a lower arhat. They're not a lower arhat. So, there are no Pratyekabuddhas.

There are no Shravaka. There are no listener or self-made buddhas. Arhats.

Huh? I'm not asking about the wish. I'm asking about emptiness.

Do you have to have the wish to get rid of your mental afflictions? So, you can see emptiness without a hell of a lot of good karma? You can see emptiness without good karma?

Because there's lower arhats. You can't be an arhat unless you see emptiness. You can't get rid of your anger.

You can't get rid of your jealousy unless you see emptiness. And you can't see emptiness unless you have a lot of good karma. Come on.

You've been trying for years. Nothing's happening. No, so...

So, drop the wish thing. You're in trouble there. Don't go there.

Drop that. No, they don't talk about that. The fact is, I mean, you have to say that you can see emptiness without that good karma.

And that's hard to accept. That's hard to believe. Without being a bodhisattva, you can see emptiness.

That's the position of all Buddhist schools. And, you know, it's a wrong loop. It's our position, right?

So, we still got this problem with this lower arhat who, according to all the scriptures, must have seen some kind of emptiness directly and has removed their mental afflictions permanently, right? But the ideas they present as emptiness are clearly wrong. But who taught those ideas?

No, now you're Jetsun Kappa, right? Where are you? You're at Sara Chuding.

You're at Sara Chuding in 1406. You're writing your book on emptiness, right? Here he is.

He's at what is going to be Sara. Right now, it's just a bunch of trees, right? No, really.

At that time, it was just a bunch of trees. It was like Diamond Mountain. Just a bunch of cactuses.

No, it's just a bunch of cactuses, right? No, there will come a day, people will say, look, I have a picture of Diamond Mountain. It was just cactuses.

No, that's a picture. So, he's at Sara Chuding. He's writing his masterpiece, one of his masterpieces on emptiness.

And then something happens to him. What? He like stops the book.

He's halfway through a 600-page book. He's old, you know? He's like 56, 46.

He's 50 already, which in Tibet at that time was like you're supposed to be dead by 10 years. By then, right? So, he's halfway through his book.

He stops everything. He goes and writes Chang'e Lekshmi Nyingbo. Why?

Something happened in his mind, obviously. Something was triggered. What?

Yeah, but what kind of questions? No. If somebody can become an arhat in a lower school, then they must be following the emptiness of that lower school.

But that's not emptiness. But they removed all their mental afflictions. Something's wrong here.

Something's seriously wrong here. And Lord Buddha taught those schools. This is weird.

You know, it's really weird. You can achieve nirvana. You can see.

You can remove your anger and jealousy permanently because you saw something that wasn't emptiness that Lord Buddha tells you to think about, that Lord Buddha taught you was emptiness. Isn't that a bit of a problem? No.

Wouldn't that bother you enough to stop your book and go to another book? No, no. Come on.

So we shouldn't be studying Madhyamika. So Jetsun Kapi shouldn't have written a book because no description of emptiness can make you see emptiness. You're just saying that something that changes is not something that doesn't change.

Okay, I can believe that. That's okay. Emptiness doesn't change.

Emptiness never changes. Never varies. But anyway, let's not get off-subject.

This guy has a problem. Who's the guy? Sarah Julian, 1406.

No, he has a problem. He's in the middle of his book. And then suddenly he's grappling with this problem.

Lord Buddha gave presentations on emptiness that were clearly false. But then some people studied them, mastered them, and got rid of their mental afflictions. Yeah.

Which you can only do if you see emptiness. I mean, if you're really, really been, if you're like Alistair and you've been in Australia, reading and re-reading these class transcripts over and over, you'd start to be asking the same questions by now. Like, what's going on?

That's why we just had that whole section about Robin in the crane, right? And coming from the same seed. Me and the class coming from the same seed.

Right? That's why we've been through this. That's why we're talking about all this stuff.

Because it's weird. It's weird. Okay.

So, like, being in 5th and 6th grade and 7th grade makes you get to 8th grade. Yeah. And then in 8th grade, you get out of school.

That school. Maryland Elementary School. That's okay.

But when you're an 8th grader, up there graduating on the graduation night, are you still a 6th grader and 7th grader? Right. So what do we say a 6th grader is graduating?

No. So what do we say a person of a lower school who's following a lower school's presentation of emptiness, which is clearly wrong, has graduated? You can't say that.

No, you can't. Because your position is that they graduated and then they saw the real emptiness. Yeah.

But by that time, they're in a higher school. Yeah, then they're no longer a lower school, so you can't call them a lower or a higher. You can drop the bodhisattva thing.

All schools believe that you don't have to be a bodhisattva to see emptiness directly. That's the problem. That's the problem.

What makes the mind only different from the prasangita? So are they there for, like, a lower school? Yeah, and there's, like, South Trantica that thinks that if the guy in the crane is not controlling the crane, then the absence of that is emptiness.

I mean, could that be, like, a lower school? Yeah, so if you follow that school and you see emptiness and you get rid of your anger and jealousy, are you a lower or a higher? Oh, so bodhisattvas are not mentioned in lower schools.

Then what's the difference between a lower school and a higher school, motivationally? Like, people, they are not described in the Abhidharmakosha, bodhisattvas who seek to achieve enlightenment for the good of all beings. They are described in the lowest school of all.

So it's not a lower school, I guess. Well, then that's what makes them a lower school. Then that's not what makes them a lower school.

The difference in motivation, then, is not what makes them a lower school. What makes them a lower school is their wrong idea of emptiness. How do you get to be a lower higher heart if you're not in a lower school?

But there's no school that has fear. That's okay. That's okay.

I'll find it. But yeah, but let's put it this way. I mean, if you were listening carefully in this class up till now, right, then you should have gone off and written some kind of Chang'e book by now.

No, because it should have bothered you. You should have said, God, they're describing lower arhats. They're describing lower ideas about emptiness which are wrong.

And then, why would Buddha teach that if it couldn't get you to nirvana even? Why would Lord Buddha teach that if it wouldn't even get you to get rid of your anger and your jealousy? Why teach that?

But he did. That's not the worst thing. I mean, the big problem is this.

You want a problem? You want a worse problem? You want a worse problem?

I'll give you a worse problem. In the Secondary of the Wheel, Lord Buddha describes this emptiness which is the absence of Michael not being my projection. The fact that there's no Michael Brown in this room who is not being directly projected by the way I treated you guys last year.

Right? That's the highest form of emptiness. Okay?

Lord Buddha teaches that in the second stage of his career. Then, in the third stage, he retracts it. He says, I went too far.

Emptiness is really just the fact that Rob doesn't, the crane, there's no crane controller. Yeah. That's the worst problem.

Like, towards the end of his life, he retracts all the right stuff. I mean, there's shit bothering him, you know? And Jetsun Kapi, he's halfway writing through a 600-page book on emptiness.

One of his great, it's the Tsar Shetik Chan, right? There's commentary on, that you were, that triggered something for you. Right?

So he's like, yeah. And he stops and he goes and writes this book and says, why did Lord Buddha retract the correct idea of emptiness and then come up with some half-assed, incorrect ones? Freaking out people.

Yeah. So that's what he concluded, right? What Mercedes said, what he concluded was, you know, some people just freaked out.

If Michael Brandon is coming from me, then there's nobody in this room except Michael Roach. That's too weird. You know, like, who's going to bring me cookies in the break?

You know, stuff like that. No, I mean, it's too, it's too much, you know? Like, they went too far.

They went too far. And then they were going to quit Buddhism. They were just going to freak out.

They were just going to leave. So he said, oh, I was just kidding, you know. Really, it's just that he came from the same karma or something, you know, like that.

Like, he backed off, right? But Jetsun Kappa, what you're witnessing in the text, if you've been following the text carefully, is we just got all those Mahamudra stuff in the scriptures. People are always calling me, Geshe Michael, why didn't you get that Mahamudra, those six things, you know?

I said, that's the book, you know. That's where it happened. And then right after that, he's stumped.

He says, my God, you know, Buddha was teaching things that were clearly wrong. Why? And then, how do we decide what's right?

If we've established that the teacher under different conditions will poker-faced lie to us about what emptiness is, how the hell are we supposed to know when he's telling the truth or not? And what does Jetsun Kappa conclude in the first pages of his book, Essence of Alchemy? No, but what does he conclude about the course of action?

Look, we've established one thing. Since the beginning of Buddhism in this world, any Buddhist teacher may be getting up and lying through his teeth to you, or her teeth, about what anything is. Okay?

Just because you're too dumb to tell the truth to. Okay? No, that's the argument.

Okay? But that's the truth. That's the argument.

So, as a student, as a disciple, faced with different choices, different presentations, teachers giving us different advice, we go to two teachers and say, I have jealousy. What should I do? And one of them tells us one thing and one of them tells us a completely different thing.

How do we know who to believe? That's why he wrote Essence of Alchemy. And what did he say in the first few pages?

Who makes the decision? You must. You must.

Like, a Buddhist disciple is never freed for the whole length of their discipleship until the day they achieve enlightenment, right? They are never freed from the heavy responsibility of examining every single statement their teacher makes and deciding for themselves whether they're going to buy it or not. Because up to the last moment they might be tongue-anguing you.

You know? Right? So that's this beautiful thing he says.

He says, you know, I've been teaching Buddhism my whole life. I'm in touch with Manjushri. You know, I understand the Garjuna Samtinas directly.

And I've realized something. Your teacher can't tell you what's true. You have to decide.

So how do you decide? Before that, how do you decide? Huh?

What did you say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Burn, cut and scratch.

Which boils down to your own experience. And then people that you trust. But basically, whatever is taught must jive with your own personal experience.

Or you cannot accept it in Buddhism. Right? And that's what he comes up with.

That's very profound. That has profound implications in any religion. You know?

I'll tell you something cool and then we'll go on. You ain't going to believe anything anyway that any teacher gets up and says if you can't check it out for yourself. You know?

Like, I don't care who you are. And I don't care how close you are to a teacher. If they say something that you can't buy yet, you're not going to follow it.

And you shouldn't. Okay? That's the bottom.

That's interesting. That's the bottom line. Okay.

What are we on to? What section are we in? Yeah, Master Shantideva.

Okay. How did he... What was his position on the question of...

What's our question? Do you have to see emptiness? You know, all of us are...

All day long you are made uncomfortable, miserable, unhappy by your anger, your jealousy, your desire, et cetera, et cetera. Right? All day long.

I am. I don't know about you. So the reason we're here at Diamond Mountain is to get rid of those things.

Right? In a permanent way. Right?

That won't change. So it's very... It's important to us...

If someone comes up to us and says, the only way you're going to get rid of those emotions is to see emptiness directly, we have to establish whether they're telling the truth or not. We need proof for that. If it's true, then I'll work harder on my emptiness stuff.

Let's read some of what we did before. This brings us to our second major section, a demonstration that Master Shantideva in his Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life also said that you can't get rid of your jealousy, Geshe Michael, unless you see emptiness directly. And even then you probably have to work on it.

So then the next paragraph says, it wasn't just Master Chandrakirti that said that, it was also Master Shantideva. And then, how do you know that? Because in the Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life, in Chapter 9, famous emptiness chapter, right?

Very, very difficult. We get question and answer. We get somebody making a statement about emptiness which is mistaken.

And then we get Master Shantideva answering that question. How does that happen? We're going to tell you the argument and the response.

Somebody says, it is so the case that you can reach Nirvana without seeing emptiness. You can get rid of your jealousy, Geshe Michael, without seeing emptiness. Probably just arguing.

Okay. Yeah, okay. We reach liberation by seeing the truth.

So what use is it to see emptiness? But that's not true because we can prove that you have to see emptiness to get rid of your mental afflictions because we can do so through Luang Nan, Rigpa. We can prove from scriptures that you have to see emptiness.

We can prove by logic that you have to see emptiness in order to not be jealous anymore, Geshe Michael. Okay. Then he quotes the Mother Sutras.

And he says, freedom is impossible for those who still see things as things. Is it wrong to see a thing as a thing? Is this robe a robe?

So the Mother Sutras are wrong. The Mother Sutras are mistaken. So the Mother Sutras didn't say that you can't reach freedom if you still see things as things.

Oh, so the Mother Sutras are correct when they say you can't reach liberation unless you stop seeing things as things. So this is a thing. Do you see this thing?

Don't start adding stuff. Do you see this thing as a thing? Do you see it as itself?

That's tricky, right? And by the way, it has to be modified, right? It has to be, what do you call it?

Qualified. Yeah, it has to be qualified. Like, I see the robe as a robe.

But what Venerable Phil wanted to say was, I don't see the robe as a robe that comes from anything except my own mind. Right? I don't see the robe as that kind of robe.

But we have to add the, that kind of. We have to add the that kind of. Did the Mother Sutras add that kind of?

No, they didn't. Why? Go give a talk in any church.

No, get up and say, things are not things that you don't see when you go on a projection and you go past karma and see what kind of reaction you get. Or get up and say that Lord Buddha said something very clearly. He said, this robe is not a robe.

No, and then you trigger this discomfort. You trigger this curiosity in people. You trigger some kind of, what the hell are you talking about?

Either you're crazy or this is like a really cool lecture. No, and then half the people leave and half the people are like, wow, what do you mean? So you hold it back.

What do you call it? You don't tell the punchline. There's a big debate about whether you should start qualifying right away or not.

And Buddha says no. Get up there and give a heart sutra. No robe, no arm, no eyes, no head, you know, right?

What do you call it? Anyway, yeah, so freedom is impossible for those who still see things as things. As things that haven't come from their own mind by how they've been treating other people.

Geshe Michael, you're being jealous about something that you did yourself, and that's why you're seeing it, and perhaps then it wouldn't be appropriate to be jealous. You should just fix it, okay? Okay.

Yeah, okay. Then you've got to reach, you've got to have the perfection of wisdom, okay? That's where we stop.

Now, I've asked some people to take a shot at translating, and we won't have time to do everybody's, but I'll keep handing, Alistair will keep handing them out, and you'll keep doing them, and I don't guarantee that we'll always get to them, okay? But you have to do them. It's a good thing.

And you're going to do them in 12-point Palatino Minotime. Right and left justified. No one-and-a-half spacing, because it wastes my time.

Okay. Let's read together, okay? Can you guys see okay?

Can you see? Let me get out of the way. Oh, now I can do this.

Oh, you've got to give me those little later things, okay? All right. Okay.

Okay. Okay. He has a split reason, okay?

He's giving three reasons for the same statement, okay? And that's further true, because the... Yeah, now I'll use the very root of the Buddhist teaching, is...

Okay, he said... This is a funny thing, you know? This is a really funny thing.

Is a monk allowed to be in a room alone with a woman? No. Sorry?

Monk, sorry. What if that woman is Vajrayogini? Could the monk recite from scripture with that woman?

Because a monk is not allowed to recite... A fully ordained monk is not allowed to recite scripture with anyone less than a fully ordained monk. That's one of my vows.

I'm not allowed to recite scripture. Like, I'm not allowed to do like a dhaki with people who are not fully ordained. Huh?

So, Vajrayogini is fully ordained? So, Vajrayogini... So, Vajrayogini is wearing the required patched robe in its proper circular...

[Speaker 2]
Huh?

[Speaker 1]
What? She doesn't have Dumbar Gopal. She doesn't have Dumbar Gopal.

Or she's breaking a vow. She's not wearing her robe. And her hair is not shaved.

Uttar Rinpoche. Dumbar Gopal. Uttar Rinpoche.

She's got hair down to here. Yeah, okay. So, she's the Vinaya master, right?

She's working on this translation. There's a thing called Dundamba Gelong. Say, Dundamba Gelong.

So, Dundamba means... It means Dundamba as opposed to Kunzopa. Or...

Takya. So, Takya means... Just nominally.

You see? And then, Dundamba means the real thing. Okay?

So, the ultimate. So, here it should be... Paramartha.

Paramartha. The ultimate. Okay?

So, that's for the truth. The very root of the Buddhist teaching is... What?

Dundamba Gelong. The ultimate monk. Okay?

No, the ultimate monk. That's Dundamba Gelong. Okay?

And scriptures like Abhidhara Kosha say that's the... That's the root of the Buddhist teaching. Dundamba Gelong.

Okay? Because there is... And...

If it's not the case... That enemy destroyers... Of the listener...

And self-made... Buddha type... Have not perceived...

Then... Okay? If it's not the case that those lower arhats saw...

Emptiness... Even directly, right? If it's not the case that they saw emptiness directly...

Dundamba Gelong Shakkawa. Dundamba Gelong Shakkawa. Yeah.

How are you going to describe an ultimate monk? What makes somebody an ultimate monk? You see?

If all those Hinayana arhats didn't see emptiness directly... But they are ultimate monks... What made them an ultimate monk?

Got it? What's the implication? What's it take to make an ultimate monk?

No, normally it would take seeing emptiness directly. If it's not... If that's...

If it's the case that they haven't seen emptiness directly... But they are still ultimate monks... Says Master Shantideva...

We have some kind of problem here. Okay? So the implication is...

To be an ultimate monk... You have to have... Seen emptiness directly.

Got it? That's all. Okay.

So if they're... Master Shantideva is saying... Look, if there's lower arhats running around who haven't seen emptiness...

And they're supposed to be ultimate monks... We got some kind of problem here. Got it?

If they didn't get to be an ultimate arhat... Sorry. If they didn't get to see...

If they didn't get to nirvana by seeing emptiness directly... But they are still ultimate monks... We got a problem here.

Okay? Got it? The implication is that any arhat is a...

Ultimate monk. Got it? Got it?

So then there's a problem. If every arhat is an ultimate monk... Then if you're an ultimate monk...

If you're an ultimate monk you must have... Seen emptiness directly. But if you say lower arhats haven't seen emptiness directly...

We got a... Problem. Because everybody knows they are...

Ultimate monks. Got it? Okay.

That was obvious to earlier people. Then... It's difficult...

To say... Just what it is... That makes somebody...

The ultimate monk. And further... It would...

Be... Difficult... To...

And further... It's been said... That it would be...

It's been stated. I like to say stated rather than said. Why?

That's the way I alert the reader to... This is a statement from scripture. You see?

People can say anything. But stated... When I use stated in English...

It means stated in a scripture. And further... It's been stated that...

It's very difficult... To... Topa...

Yeah... Achieve... Attain...

Nyangen le depa... Nirvana... How do you break that out?

Nyangen le depa. Yeah, gone beyond suffering. Ashok...

Sanskrit. Ashoka. If you're interested.

That's kind of cool, right? That's a very different term... For someone...

Who still... Looks on things... With a mind...

That is holding... That things are real. Okay?

Got it? Okay? This is very artificial, by the way.

This is very artificial. The next part is kind of boring. Why?

Somewhere in Shantideva... Master Shantideva... He said, look...

If... If lower arhats haven't seen emptiness directly... Then it's hard to establish...

Who could be an ultimate monk.

[Speaker 2]
Right?

[Speaker 1]
He said that in his verses. Okay? So then our commentator...

He's going to say... You know... It'd be really hard...

To say who is an ultimate monk... If you also said that... Lower arhats haven't seen emptiness directly.

You know? And then the... The opponent's going to say what?

Change here. You know? Why are you saying that?

He says... Oh, because Master Shantideva said it. You know?

And then that's just an artificial debate. He's just making a... A very artificial debate.

By taking pieces out of Master Shantideva. Okay? So guess what's coming next?

He's probably going to lose... Lungajupa... Which is what?

Scriptural proof... That somebody said that that was true. Guess who?

Master Shantideva. Okay. I bet that's what's coming.

Okay. Let's read it together. But I want to ask you one thing.

What am I going to ask you to do... About reading this thing? Please read it as if it were poetry.

Which in Tibetan means... If it's Milarepa... Okay?

This is not Milarepa. Okay. One, two, three...

Okay. Okay. Okay.

And that's true. Because this same word... States...

What same word? Yeah. And that's true.

That there can be... Without this... What's that mean?

What's he saying? Yeah. And also you can't even get rid of your jealousy...

Without seeing emptiness directly. And his first proof is what? Because it was stated.

Somebody said that. Who said that? Those who still see things as...

Things. Can't make it. They'll never make it to liberation.

Right? Our... Our author was...

Good question. Our author was kind enough to find us the quotation. He said, oh, it's from the Mother Sutras.

And Lord Buddha said that if you still see things as things... You can't get... You can't get liberated.

Which could be read as Nirvana or Enlightenment. Right? Why did he say hard?

Sorry? Who said very difficult? Did he say very difficult?

No, he didn't. No, he didn't say that. He said impossible.

Stop trying to cheat us. No, the quotation said impossible. That's all that...

We didn't get to the other two yet. Fat. Okay.

Will Geshe Michael get a chocolate chip cookie on any other day... Than his teaching days? It's impossible.

It's not just very difficult. She has a third eye. It goes from here and it stretches to here.

So it doesn't matter if she's got her back to you. She can still tell. Okay.

Okay. I want to find a nice English expression. I'll give you the Tibetan.

To stay in difficulty. To stay in difficulty. But what he's going to say is...

If someone were already an ultimate monk... It would be a kawane to say that they were an ultimate monk. No, but I can't use that in a book.

In a book that might be published by Wisdom or something. Get the kawa, get the difficulty. It means that, but...

Ne means condition or state or situation. It'd be a nasty situation if... If you said these lower arhats were already ultimate monks but they hadn't seen emptiness.

Get the kawa. What? You're getting there.

That's pretty close. I like that. I like that.

Let's try to fit it in. He said difficult to reconcile. And it would be difficult...

to reconcile... someone... being an ultimate...

being a monk... I'm going to say of that kind. What does he mean by of that kind?

That's already... If they're an ultimate monk, they're already an arhat. It'd be difficult to say they were an arhat...

and being a monk of that kind. What's of that kind mean? Who said that?

Who hadn't... seen emptiness. That'd be difficult to reconcile.

You know, here's this guy. Tell me about him. He hasn't seen emptiness.

Okay, he's an ultimate monk. Oh, that's a problem. Difficult to reconcile.

So that's why his translation was cool. It'd also be kawene... to say that someone had attained...

nirvana. If they had a... mind.

I like this, because there's a yoga pose, right? What's that? Sarvanga.

But you're using your hands. What's it called in Sanskrit? Not doing the dharmic thing.

What's it called? Salambana. Sa...

alambana. Say, sa... alambana.

Alambana in Tibetan is mikpa. Miktangche. It's here.

Tangche means sa. Mik means alambana. What's it mean to do sarvangasana, headstand, with salambana?

You're still using a support. You're still using a support. Why would it be difficult to say that someone hadn't reached nirvana and was still using a support?

No, it says something about what it means to still have support. What kind of support is he talking about? The word alambana in 99% of the cases, if you're not in a yoga text, means the support of a perception.

Okay? Like, cookie time. Who's doing the cookies?

Or I'm leaving. Huh? All right.

I brought my own, just in case. Okay. Look at the fudge...

Is that what it is? It's just fudge? I mean, it's just brownie?

It's not any lady named Alice? No. Okay.

Okay. He gave it to me. Okay.

Good. So look at it. Okay?

Do you have a perception of a brownie? So far. Now, do you have a perception of...

I mean, a direct visual perception of a brownie? Because I took away the alambana. Because this is supporting your perception.

As your arms support your headstand. That's why the headstand is called salambana. So, in philosophy, in all ancient Sanskrit, this is the alambana, and your visual consciousness of a fudge, of a brownie, is resting on it, on that support.

Take away the support, the perception disappears. So can we say, according to this scripture right now, anyone who still has a basis, something to perceive, can't be a... can't achieve nirvana.

What it says? It says, anybody still has an alambana, they can't reach nirvana. That's what it says.

You're talking about the first one, the first proof. Let's go back. I mean, you guys got to go back.

You're never going to make a debate graph. You got to go back. Okay, that was...

that was difficult to reconcile. We just finished, right? Now we're on to...

It's further been stated that it's very difficult to attain nirvana for someone who still looks on things with a mind which is holding that things are real. So what's that mean about salambana? You better...

you better get it straight before I finish the alambana. Good. Good.

Take away... take away the brownie that's coming from Geshe Michael's good karma at having shared brownies in the past. Take away that brownie.

There is no other brownie. Then there's no alambana to support the state of mind that says, what? I can get a cookie if I...

if I... if I grab it first. I can get the brownie if I corner the brownies.

I can protect myself from the recession if I put aside my money. You see what I mean? It's so cool.

It's so cool. If you no longer have a illusory brownie, right? You can't have any.

If... But if you see a brownie that comes from grabbing first or from cornering the brownies or from not sharing your money because it's a recession, right? If you...

if you see money like that then you still have what resting on that? On that make-believe money. You have a make-believe perception.

You have a make-believe perception. I have money in my hand that if you hold it and don't share it and you put it away somewhere safe you'll be covered in the recession. You know?

You know? As long as I have that make-believe monopoly money then I... what can rest on that alambana?

The make-believe state of mind which is the only root for jealousy. Got it? That's so cool.

Which is the only thing that can support jealousy. Take away the belief that if I corner my... if I protect my money I'm okay in a recession, right?

Take away that money. Take away that belief. Then you can't be cheap.

No more mental afflictions. So what do you have to do to get rid of your mental afflictions? See?

Emptiness directly. Take away the make-believe money. Take away the make-believe brownie.

Share your brownie. No matter how hard it is. All right.

See? You even get a... You even get a...

an offering goddess to bring it. Because karma always... multiplies.

Okay. You could say that. You could say that.

Yeah. Meaning there's no object... No, listen.

Meaning there's no longer an object that could support your misperceptions. Okay? And then you wouldn't get...

You wouldn't be capable of jealousy. Who are you jealous at, Geshe Michael? Who created this thing?

It's that thing about the bathroom and the shower. What's that? No, you go into the bathroom and you slip on the floor and you fall on your butt, you know?

And something cracks, you know? And then... you get mad because you have a roommate and they always leave water on the floor.

But then you remember you were there this morning and you left the water on the floor. Then you don't get upset. What are you gonna...

stare in the mirror and say, stupid, you know, stop leaving water on the floor. How many people do that? How many people look in the mirror and like yell at them for five minutes, I told you like 16 times don't leave water on the floor.

How many people do that, seriously? Almost nobody except Avon, okay? But how many people go to their roommates and say, I told you goddamn 16 times don't leave water on the floor.

I just fell and broke my butt, you know? No, I mean... As long as you think it's someone else's fault, you can have a mental affliction.

If you think it's your own fault, you'll just stop leaving water on the floor. It's not a big thing, right? Okay.

We gotta fix this first sentence here, I'll tell you why. Given Shantideva's, Master Shantideva's verse, the first line doesn't mean what we thought it meant anymore. It's intimately connected to the second line.

Suppose someone is an ultimate monk. Got it? Got it?

Okay. He was talking about the same thing. Leave it, it's okay.

He's just talking about the same thing. Okay, let's go. By the way, I have this idea.

The reason I set up the stage like this, I have this cool idea. But I'll tell you later. Okay.

You didn't finish the quotation? That's a problem. Oh, yeah.

Okay. Okay, here we go. Now, I want you to say, we're gonna do a special thing.

This is an Eastern Tibetan accent of a person with no teeth. So, first you put a big cookie in your mouth. Okay?

One, two, three. Okay? Okay.

Rigpe. What's rigpe? Yeah, logic as opposed to?

No. Yeah. Scriptural authority.

Monk Rick sent us the cupcake. Remember. Okay.

Okay. Nu means what? To hurt somebody, right?

But in logic, it means to contradict their wrong position. You know, damage their position. Wow, that's nice.

Remind me when we get to translate. So, we're gonna undermine their position with logic because we already undermined it with? Scripture.

Shantideva. Okay. God, who did this night?

Aniki? Oh, man, every night. Okay.

Rigpe nutso. Now, rigpe nutso means let's get on to undermining his stupid position with logic rather than scriptural authority. Okay?

What was his position that we're trying to undermine? What did he say at the beginning that's causing a fight? What would be a nice thing to start a debate with tonight?

Good, yeah. You don't know how to start an argument? I mean, you practice with your partner, okay?

But but the general principle you know, the debate master comes up and he grabs you and he says, get up, debate right now. And you're like, well, I don't know what to say, you know. Say something wrong.

Okay, just anything wrong. Start your debate like that. Let them disprove it.

Let them do all the work. Just say anything stupid thing that's wrong. So, get up and say it ain't necessary to see emptiness directly in order to get rid of your jealousy, Geshe Michael.

Okay? And then let him do the work and you sit there and go, hmm, hmm. You know, like that.

Okay? All right? So, we're up to rigpe nutso.

Nutso. Tongi topa la mata par. Without having to see emptiness directly.

Kang sa rang kya thupa zeyo ki tonga ngunso di topa la tene. If you just see that kang sa rang kya thupa zeyo ki tonga that a person is empty of being rang kya thupa think, you'll always remember Rob, okay? For nothing else, you'll be remembered for generations as the guy in the in the crane, in the glass booth in the crane.

Okay? I mean, aside from starting the second phase of Dairy Mountain. But...

Yeah. That I won't forget. Okay.

So, somebody hasn't seen emptiness directly but they've seen that they're not in charge of their body and mind. They're not running their body and mind. If Geshe Michael was in charge of his mind, if he ran his body and mind, then what?

He wouldn't have to fight jealousy. He'd say, look. He'd wake up.

He'd say... The alarm clock would go off. He'd say, Geshe Michael, don't be jealous the rest of the day.

Okay? And he would listen. Okay.

Re shik means what? For the time being. That's the...

What do you call it? What do you call it? That's the operative word.

Re shik. Re shik. Re shik.

For a while, he pang bah. What? Got rid of his belief that he was in...

He was the... He was running his body and mind. Re shik.

He got rid of the idea that he was running his body and mind. Okay? For a while.

For a while. Because he didn't see emptiness directly but he did see the crane thing. Got it?

Got it? What's that say about the crane thing? Yeah, it's only re shik.

It only works re shik. You see? Like, get really sick.

And then you believe that you're not in control of things. You know? Have your partner say like some wild thing to you like ten times and then you're like, God, I guess I'm not in control of things.

You know? You know what I mean? I'm not in control.

And then for like an hour you can deal with stuff. You know? For like an hour you can remember, you know?

Oh, I'm not... I can't control anything. I should just calm down.

This is from past karma. You know? Like that.

Okay? For a while you can do something. For a while you can handle it.

Re shik. So is it useful? Yeah, it helps.

But then he says, de tse na dro nyang de topa yee ba ta yee ba ta You know? Are you telling me that de tse what? tse na tse na at that time when?

What time? What time? Yeah.

Are you saying that when you see the crane thing nyang en le yee ba ta What? You get nirvana? Are you saying you get to nirvana?

Who's he saying that to? Why is he accusing this guy? I'll run it by you again.

He's accusing this guy. So what the hell? Are you saying that you can reach nirvana just by understanding that you're not in control of your arm?

Why is he picking on this guy? The guy never said that. He never said that.

He said you don't have to see emptiness. Yeah, got it? What Chicky La said.

What he said was you don't have to see emptiness directly to get to nirvana. So then we come back with oh, so all you have to do is see the crane thing then. Yee ba ta Okay?

Got it? Got it? Okay.

Do I have to translate that? Yeah, remind me. This brings us then to where we undermine by using what?

Reasoning. I like reasoning instead of logic because people get nervous when you say logic. Okay.

Now we got to start out with yee ba ta. We have to go to the end of the sentence. Yee ba ta.

Yeah, are you saying are you telling who said that? That's nice. Eva?

Oh, are you telling me are you telling me that a person without having to perceive emptiness can perceive directly the fact that a person is devoid of being self-standing and substantial. In fact, are you telling me that a person without having to perceive emptiness can perceive directly the fact that there is emptiness? Right?

And thus and thus for a brief period or for some period of time at least see that people no, at least eliminate within themselves the idea the manifest form of the idea which holds that a person is self-standing and substantial and that would be enough for them to attain liberation. This brings us yeah are you telling me that a person without having to perceive emptiness can perceive directly the fact that a person is devoid of being self-standing and substantial and thus for some period of time at least eliminate within themselves the manifest form of the idea which holds that a person is self-standing and substantial and that would be enough for them to achieve nirvana? Who said de?

Somebody over here said de. Come on. You said de.

De means I agree. De means I agree. De.

Devata. Somebody said de. No, that's a you can say no, Jigme.

You don't have to you don't have to hide. You can say you can say like this. You can go Shanlu.

Shanlu. What's that mean? I'm the other guy.

I'm the other guy. De. Yeah, that's what I say.

Okay? No, it's true. You don't have to wimp out.

You just sit there. In debate be unshakable. Be fierce.

If you're totally wrong and the guy's wiping you out you guys sit there and say de. The sky is green. De.

You know? Okay. And sometimes you win just by chutzpah.

You know? They think if he's so sure of himself he must be right. And then you like sneak out of the debate ground.

Okay. Okay, let's read together. And then we'll do something else for a minute.

One. This is the last sentence, I think. One, two, three.

Dem da wey lam la de ne. Ki sab pon mi nu wey chir. It's always assumed that after a tel he said something else that makes us reply with a sentence that ends in a chir.

What did he say? Chee chir. Say chee chir.

Chee chir. CHI CHIR! Who said that?

OK? Said what? Oh yeah, you can achieve Nirvana.

You don't have to see emptiness directly. You can just see the thing about Rama. OK?

And then he says, who said that? I didn't say that. CHI CHIR means, why?

Why are you saying that? Then we answer with CHIR. What?

Oh, because blah blah blah and blah blah blah. Here's the blah blah blah. It's hard, right?

It's a little hard. It's a little hard. The first half is OK, right?

Right? Oh, are you saying that you can achieve Nirvana using this, without seeing emptiness directly, just by using this path? I said, why are you accusing me of that?

He said, well, first of all, because you said you could achieve Nirvana by using this path, right? And second of all, you can't get rid of the seeds for mental afflictions by using this path. So that covers the Rishik.

That covers the Rishik. What's the Rishik? For the time being at least, OK?

If you have to say for the time being at least, what's it mean about the mental seed for getting jealousy tomorrow? You still haven't, OK? Got it?

Got it? All right. Now we're going to do some debate.

We got like, I don't know, we can do like 15 minutes or something. I had this idea. The reason I set it up like this, I thought it'd be cool to just show you some debate techniques that you could use in the debate ground.

So what I'd like to suggest is that I'll say so-and-so is the giku, OK? So-and-so is the giku tonight. And then at least when I was in the debate ground, got a mala.

This is better, bigger. The debate master had a, he had this huge mala, rudra mala, right? And so one of the, the first job of the debate master in a tsok, in an assembly, tsok doesn't always mean tsok, OK?

In an assembly, one of the first jobs is to clear an alley for the debate. So they'll say, giku-la, clear the alley. Then he gets up with his, he just goes like this.

And everybody's like, and in my day, we had a really sadistic giku and he used an electric extension cord. And that really hurt. And then after that, it was tukten-tenzin and they called him Buddha because he refused to hit anybody.

So he'd just be like, could you move, please? So anyway, Daniel's the giku. I need an alley up to where Ness and Edward are, but, and then I want Ben and Abom sitting there side by side, OK?

No, you clear them, you clear them. He's in between. He's in between.

He just threatens but doesn't do it. Where Ben is OK. How wide?

Wide enough for like three people across to sit. And then people on the side are facing in and you guys are all facing either that way or that way, depending on whether you want to watch or turn your back to it. Now I need a towel.

You have a towel? What I thought was tonight, I wanted to show you how to do a team attack. So normally you have at least two guys defending because they help each other.

Like if one guy starts to answer something stupid, the other guy's going. Or if one guy's like clueless, he can just gracefully turn to the other guy and you know, like, ask him. Like, I know that already.

Ask him. So, I was thinking, come, there's this thing where, OK, so first you approach very calmly, very respectfully. You're like desperately thinking of something to say.

And you're buying time. No, you face them. And then you like get down and drop your sand.

Right? This is respectful. Last time you'll be respectful to them.

Say, What's di? It's the root syllable of Manjushri, the angel of wisdom, right? It means wisdom, knowledge, right?

So di, you start out with di. Then you say, let's talk about this. How about this?

You don't have to say what it is or anything. If you see a thing as a thing, you can't get enlightened. You can't reach nirvana.

If you see a thing as a thing, you can't get enlightened. Then you stand up, and you just sort of turn your back on them disrespectfully. And you walk away.

Like, they're probably too stupid to answer. What are we going to do after the debate? Have some tea, tuppa, something.

This means, I'm taking the gloves off. Really loud. I see they have more salt in the tuppa.

Oh, they answered. Oh, by the way, we said that quotation doesn't mean anything at all. And they said, we disagree.

So we said, oh, there must be a meaning. Did you hear anything? He's like whining or something.

Oh, di, you said di. You're dead, left foot. You're dead!

You got to turn your back. They're not worth talking to. We could sneak out to a movie after this.

Kushanagun. He's laughing. You were just at Sarah.

Did you say the name?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I'm sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Doesn't know Tibetan. Maybe she could do it in English. Does it have meaning or not?

Ready? Ready?

[Speaker 2]
Wow! Shout!

[Speaker 1]
Shout means like cough it up. Let's hear it. What's it mean?

What's the quotation mean? English is okay. No.

What's the Tibetan? Translate it. Yeah, same thing, for you.

So you think that's what that goddamn quotation means? No, stick up. He just said so.

[Speaker 2]
That's what the Tibetan means.

[Speaker 1]
Is that what the Tibetan means? Yeah. Okay.

So a thing is not a thing. No, that's exactly how you do it. That's exactly how you do it.

Shout! Shout! So he said it ain't necessarily the case.

Okay? Yeah, yeah, scripture said that, but it doesn't mean it. Right?

[Speaker 2]
Sangye kyu dzun suata.

[Speaker 1]
So the Buddha tells lies. Sangye dzun suata. dzun migyewa mayimba.

dzun migyewa mayimba. So I guess lying is not a bad deed. Chat means then everybody has to yell.

You all go, chat! It means you couldn't say anything, could you? Chat means it stopped.

By the way, anybody from about three rows back can scream out anything they want anytime. No, to help them. That's the only way I got to my geshe.

So anybody like three rows back can say something. La. La.

[Speaker 2]
La means lie. So sangye kyu dzun sangye kyu dzun ma suarta.

[Speaker 1]
sangye kyu dzun ma suarta. So we can say that the Buddha doesn't say lie. sangye kyu migyewa kyu ma suarta.

sangye kyu migyewa kyu ma suarta. So the Buddha never spoke the ten non-virtues. Good answer.

He said that doesn't prove anything. Well, that would mean he did not speak the ten non-virtues. But that doesn't prove he didn't.

Good. Okay, good. So sangye kyu dzun suarta.

sangye kyu dzun suarta. So the Buddha did speak lies.

[Speaker 2]
Could you clarify the term lie?

[Speaker 1]
Good, good, good. You clarify. I know.

Do it in English.

[Speaker 2]
Something that misrepresents the truth.

[Speaker 1]
Is a lie. I'll do better, I'll do better. Whenever you say anything that gives the person a conception of the thing you're talking about which is radically different from the conception you yourself know to be true.

This is a lie. I'm going now.

[Speaker 2]
So, you follow.

[Speaker 1]
So the Buddha never said anything where he had one conception in his mind. And gave that impression to the disciple. For example, in the third turning of the wheel.

Talking about a big Irish guy in a crane.

[Speaker 2]
A crane? You give someone a conception which is inconsistent with the conception of something that you have in your mind.

[Speaker 1]
Knowingly, purposely.

[Speaker 2]
I would say, in that case, no, the Buddha did not have a conception. Hey! By the way, it's true.

No, no.

[Speaker 1]
It's true. Anyone can start a war. Anybody in the crowd can start a war.

90% of the time they are not deserved. It's just people are getting bored and they want to cause trouble. But the Buddha did knowingly and purposely give disciples an impression about emptiness which was different than the impression that he had within his own mind.

That's the definition of a lie. Oh, maybe. But all things lead to all things.

No. Lincoln's assassination caused our meeting here tonight. No, it was an event which happened prior to this meeting which this meeting wouldn't have happened without that.

It didn't stop this meeting. Maybe. No, when you give a person an impression, when you knowingly give them an impression which matches the impression that you yourself have in your own mind, that's not a lie.

When you strive to give them an impression which matches the impression you have in your own mind, this is what truth is. That's a long story. But he told them that was emptiness.

And that wasn't his mental impression of emptiness. Did we say intention doesn't matter? Okay.

So if a mother says to her child if you eat too much chocolate you'll immediately get cavities. She's not lying. Because her intention is good.

If it's a good intention, it's not a lie. It means like tomorrow you'll have to go to the dentist and get your teeth drawn. If you eat that, like...

So let's go back to these useless guys. So I guess things is things. Are you telling me a robe is a robe?

A robe is a robe. So this robe is coming from its own side. Why would you say that?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, sure, it's a thing, but that doesn't mean...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, sure, it's a thing, but that doesn't mean...

[Speaker 2]
Just because it's a thing doesn't mean that it comes from its own side.

[Speaker 1]
So you're telling me there's something in the world that doesn't come from its own side? Take your robe. So then we check back.

We countercheck, right? Okay, that was number one. It's a thing, right?

And it doesn't come from its own side. So you sewed my robe. Because if it's not coming from its own side, it must be coming from your side.

Puṃsumbāyatā. Are you telling me there's a third choice? If it's not coming from me and not coming from you, then where is it coming from?

I said you sewed my robe. Where is it coming from? He was in India in 1973.

So everything comes from karma, right? So I guess karma comes from karma. So karma comes from its own side.

When you just said nothing came from its own side, why on earth would you say that? Karma is part of the world. So even though the world comes from karma, not everything in the world comes from karma.

Not even karma itself. You said karma, not necessarily. You said there were exceptions.

Things coming from karma. So karma comes from karma. So karma comes from itself.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, okay, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Lay, lay my imbatha. Put it right to the left. So karma is not karma.

It doesn't come from itself. So it does come from itself. So karma doesn't come from karma.

So karma does come from karma. So karma comes from itself. So karma comes from itself.

Because karma comes from karma. If something comes from itself, it doesn't necessarily come from itself. So karma comes from itself.

So karma comes from its own side. Ah means what? Karma comes from karma.

But karma doesn't come from itself. So karma does come from itself. Karma comes from its own side and comes from yourself.

You said everything comes from other... Everything's coming from your perception. Everything's coming from the other side.

You said nothing was coming from its own side. So karma can't come from its own side. So karma doesn't come from itself.

Because itself is its own side. Oh, okay.

[Speaker 2]
So you are karma.

[Speaker 1]
No, I'm saying so you are karma.

[Speaker 2]
Why is that?

[Speaker 1]
Because the karma comes from you and you said karma comes from karma.

[Speaker 2]
Karma comes from me? No, I said the karma comes from karma. I didn't say the karma comes from me.

[Speaker 1]
So the karma doesn't come from you.

[Speaker 2]
No, it comes from karma.

[Speaker 1]
So it comes from its own side.

[Speaker 2]
No, it comes from itself. Oh!

[Speaker 1]
If you see things as things, you can't get to Nirvana. That's how we started the debate. Now you just said that karma is karma.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
So anyone who says that can't get enlightened. At this point, the debate master stands up and goes Ola So! Ola So!

Which means give it a break already. Then you... Then what's the last debate of every great debate, right?

Korwa la ta me ba ta. Korwa la ta me ba ta. So samsara doesn't have an end.

Korwa la ta yo ba ta. Korwa la ta yo ba ta. Are you telling me samsara does have an end?

Yud te. Yud te. Nyan bo top te nyu ve chu.

Everybody has to say. Say nyan bo Nyan bo top ten top ten yu ve chu yu ve chu That's the last word in any Geshe debate. What's it mean?

Because there's a powerful antidote to your wrong ideas, right? Do it again. One, two, three.

Nyan bo top ten yu ve chu And then everybody goes Yeah! Okay. Okay.

Okay, that's the end of the class. No, but remember that end, okay? It's a nice end.

And then try some team debating. And you like sneak. You like whisper to each other what you're going to say.

If you've been doing it for like a year or something, it's just like one person moving and speaking like one person. You don't even have to prepare anything. You just do it together.

It looks like the Rockettes. Sometimes you can do it with six or seven guys in a row. Okay.

So, you ready? Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. So, one thing's burned into your mind, right?

Like if they say, how did that first class go when he was standing up? And you say, I don't remember much of the class, but they were yelling over there. And they said, if you see a thing as a thing, if you see a thing as itself, you can't get enlightened.

Like, and you have to have that in your mind, right? So, like, for the next week, you know, in your meditation or... Like, if you're driving with somebody to Tucson and you don't know what to talk about, just say, if you see a thing as a thing, you can't get enlightened.

If you see a thing as itself, you can't get enlightened. If Geshe Michael sees a thing as itself, he can't stop his jealousy. You know?

Like, just throw that out. And then start a conversation. Right?

Right? That's all. Talk about it.

And see, you never forget when you were really saying, this little kid got up during my pre-Geshe, and he debated something about the elements. A very weird meditation on the elements, you know? Which I hadn't read in six years or something.

And I screwed it up completely. So this little kid wiped me out in the temple in front of a thousand people, you know? And you never forget those things.

You know? I'll always remember that meditation now. You know?

So, debate is very good. Debating in public is very good. Don't be...

Don't let your pride... You know? You just say, wipe me out.

You know? Embarrass me in front of all these people. And then you'll never forget that thing.

Right? So it's a good thing. You'll remember this debate for a while.

And that's the purpose of debating. Okay? So try to debate a lot.

Yeah?