Вступление на срединный путь (текущий курс, Аризона), занятие 67

[Speaker 1]
We're just finishing, I don't know, did you guys work on that? No. That quotation from last time?

Like figuring out what it was all about? Did you? Where's...

Did you work on it? You have any ideas? There were three quotes.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Right.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah, does it make sense? Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Good. I'm just trying to... All right.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Oh. Let's see if he does it.

Did everybody hear, Nicole? Did everybody hear her? Okay, so the basic thing was that we were talking last time about some quotations where they said, these bodhisattvas are set apart from arhats by virtue of something, and then it was, they've seen emptiness, but what sets them apart, really, is their love, the power of their love.

But the problem is that the word wish is used in the same quotation twice to mean two different things, and that's confused people for two and a half thousand years. Okay? Like that.

All right. I think we'll let it go. More will come.

I think the third quotation will come again. Let's see. Yeah.

Okay. Let's see what he says. He does treat it later.

He does treat it within the next class or two. Let's read this together. This is just a wrap-up.

All right. We're going to read the top one. Ready?

One, two, three. I'm just going to do this fast, okay? It's a nested quotation, a quotation within a quotation, which is really a lot of trouble for transmitters, okay?

It's like the last thing you can do right. Okay. Okay.

So, when it talks about just after they developed a wish, it's talking about the wish that involves a sense of personal responsibility since we're talking about the first bodhisattva now. Okay. Those of you who...

Oh, they didn't get that class on Saturday. Those of you who know the seven steps method to developing bodhicitta, step number six? Yeah, hlak-sam-nam-dhag.

Hlak-sam-nam-dhag, I mean, how do you develop ultimate love? The final attitude that you need to get to ultimate love is called hlak-sam-nam-dhag. Here they call it hlak-peh-sam-pa-dhag-peh, okay?

And that's a very... I like that. It just means, if nobody else helps me, and in fact, if everyone else tries to fight me and cause me trouble, I will still get enlightened for other people, okay?

So, it's like, I'll do it on my own. If I'm the last person in the world who believes in it, or if everyone decides... They say, jikten sungi, dra-lang-gyur kyang.

Even if all the beings of the three realms of the universe rise up as my enemy, I will still take care of them, you know? It's a personal decision. I will be the one to take care of the world, like that.

So, would that refer to the direct perception of emptiness more, or would that refer more to love, bodhichitta? Yeah, so that's what he's saying, okay? And it supports what Nicole said, I guess.

All right, don't do that, okay?

[Speaker 2]
You're supposed to say...

[Speaker 1]
All right. Yeah. It's just called extra thought.

Lhakpa means extra or exceeding, and sampa means thought, and then dhakpa means pure. So, extra pure thought is the Tibetan word for personal responsibility, okay? You know Lhak from tuklak, I taught you many times.

Say tuklak. What's tuklak? Leftover Tibetan soup, tukpa.

Like, that's where you hear this word the most in a Tibetan monastery. It's not in the debate ground. It's at tuklak.

Lhak means... Lhakma... Oh God, we have tuklak again.

We got leftovers again, okay? So, lhak means leftover or beyond, way beyond, okay? All right.

Yat peng. Okay, let's read this together. We're almost done with this long, kind of sleepy argument.

All right, here we go. Can't say boring, right? One, two, three.

DE LTAR MA YIN PA THAM CHE DUN DAM PAS SEMS SKYES LA CHE PA MI RIGS TE DE YIN NA DO DE DE DAG LAS DANG RGYAL BA SOGS KYI KHYEN DU GYUR WAY CHE DANG All right. These are corrections. I was the editor for the monastery's textbooks for like five years.

And these are corrections I put in that contradict the block. So, I didn't feel comfortable to wipe out what the block said. So, I don't know what we'll do.

We'll leave it for now, okay? But, DE LTAR MA YIN, NA? If it weren't like this, if it weren't this way, and if we said that all these quotations, they're still talking about Nicole's quotations, and if we said that all these quotations were referring to DUN DAM SEMS SKYES, the ultimate form, form of the wish, which is what?

Direct perception of emptiness? Sorry? That'd be an interesting debate in the debate ground.

DUN DAM SEMS SKYES, YIN NA? CHANG SEMS KYI GYUR GYI SEMS SKYES, BA'I KHA BA'I CHE, right? If something is the ultimate form of bodhicitta, is it always in the mind of a bodhisattva?

That'd be a good debate for the debate ground. And if we said that all these quotations were referring to the ultimate form of wish, there would be a problem. That would be incorrect.

So, that's if Nicole, if both bodhicittas referred to the direct perception of emptiness, right? That would be a problem, right? Because that doesn't get them into the family, right?

That would be incorrect. First of all, there would be the problem that we would contradict the statements from the sutras. Meaning, they'd talk about a family and we would be not talking about a family, okay?

And also, it would then be incorrect to talk about a time not long after one had developed the wish. And that's because they would already have had this kind of wish in their mind stream. And I'm not going to, we're not going to sit on that anymore.

We're going to go on to the next thing, okay? This is kind of where I'd like to start the class. We're just cleaning up, finishing up.

Thanks for that. But he is, somewhere in those last two paragraphs is the answer to the third one, I think. We'll see, okay?

Let's read this one together. One, two, three. Sumba, dhedak, hi, drupdön, sepa, la.

Sumba? Third. Dhedak?

There. Drupdön? Where's Earl?

Yeah, yeah. Drupdön means what we can, what conclusions we can draw from some kind of exchange, right? And then sepa la means, we're going to explain that.

So, we've had this long exchange between us and the other guy. He's been saying, oh, you can have bodhicitta in your heart while you're perceiving emptiness directly, right? And we've been saying, no, you can't.

And we've been showing sutra quotations at each other. And the whole discussion has come about through talking about how is it that a bodhisattva outshines people of a lower path? Okay, a bodhisattva who has seen emptiness, how do they, why are they somehow much more magnificent than someone of a lower path, right?

So there are certain conclusions we can draw from this discussion, and we're going to do that now, all right? They are not the point of the discussion, but if you watch two people having this discussion, you could draw other conclusions, additional conclusions, okay? Like that.

So, here next is the third part where we explain conclusions that can be drawn, additional conclusions maybe, from the above exchange. Okay? Now we got to go find Yat Ping.

Okay. You thought you're going to get away. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Hmm. Let's try here.

[Speaker 1]
Where are they? Oh, but it's not on this disc? Oh, oh, oh.

It's not here. Okay. So, okay.

Let's go here. This one? Ah, there she is.

Okay. Whoa. Okay.

And, let's try something else. Is there another Yat Ping? Oh, which one do you think?

This one probably. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
All right. Let's get this one.

[Speaker 1]
All right, you ready? Let's do it together. One, two, three.

Okay. Hmm. All right.

There will be, our explanation will be made in three parts. First, we will show how, okay, Yat Ping, yeah. First we'll show how the Sutra on the Ten Levels holds that there does exist the direct perception of good, the selflessness of phenomena in listeners and self-made Buddhas.

Good. I tend to want to, you know, I'm going to put small case Bs for Buddhists that aren't Buddhists. Okay.

And this is where we come to, yeah. Then, we will, this is hard. Lung Köpa means, then we will set forth scriptural references.

What's that in the Tibetan? Just lung. So far it's just lung.

And then, what do you think shey jey means? It means, but what does the shey mean? Shey means to understand, but what does the shey mean with it?

To make someone understand. Yeah, to make someone understand. So, then we will set forth that support this view.

You see what I mean? That help you understand it. And then finally, let's see if, did you have that?

Oh, yeah. We'll have the refutation of our opponents. Yeah, that's the refutation.

And then finally, and finally, we will, what do you call it? Tsepapowa. How are you going to translate that?

Yeah, that sounds good. And then finally, we will overcome our opponent's objections. And this is this thing that we talked about last time, that the cool thing about a Tibetan scripture, a monastic scripture, I think they're the greatest examples of literature in the world.

I don't think anyone has ever been translated. So, they're like the greatest genre of literature in the world, I think. And it will be interesting when they get translated.

You know, and people, it will be interesting when you write your first one. Okay? Sorry, you're supposed to go, okay.

But it has three parts. What's the first one? Say Shenlu.

Gagpa. Which is what? First, in a Tibetan monastic textbook, you don't just write, oh, here's what's right.

First, somebody comes up and says some crazy idea, which in fact is what? About the debate ground. That's how every debate starts.

That's how every debate starts. You know, you want to know how to debate, you want to know what to do in the debate ground, just step in and say something controversial. Preferably something slightly wrong.

And let the guy prove you wrong. See if he can prove you wrong. So, Shenlu Gagpa is important.

That's what you do when you step into the debate ground. And it should be something you're not sure about. You know, like, oh, the third quotation about the wish for enlightenment, the second reference is to ultimate bodhicitta.

You see? Why is that a good starting argument? Nicole.

There is no second reference in the third quotation. Right? That was her problem.

But see, when you're not sure about something, yourself, like at home, you've been working on it and you can't figure it out, use the debate ground. Go to the debate ground. Say, oh, that third quotation is correct.

You know? And then they're like, no, it's not. And you're like, well, why not?

And actually, it's what you always wanted to know. So don't go... Some people, they memorize one little piece and they go in the debate ground and they debate that.

You know, what are the two kinds of bodhicitta? Like, they already know it. Everybody else already knows it.

Don't do that. Those are just like the weaker debaters. They debate what they know and what they're sure about.

But a real debater goes in with the stuff they couldn't figure out themselves. And they present it like the other side. You know, oh, quotation three is like airtight proof.

You know? And then the guy says, no, it's not. You say, well, prove it.

And then you listen really hard because that's what you didn't know when you walked in the debate ground. You see? And then you learn and you develop.

Get it? You're sleepy. That's all those late nights at Diamond Mountain.

Okay. Every time we go to like Shanghai, we say, oh, people in Arizona, they're not sleepy like you, but... Okay.

Now we won't say that anymore. And then Ranggupa Shakpa is what? Then you put forward your own position.

This is what we believe. Then Tsopa Powa? Yeah.

Then that's the beauty of the Tibetan system. The opponent who just get wiped out in public, in a book, he gets to come back and attack you. He gets to come back and attack you.

And that's so fair. Right? First of all, it's unfair that he gets beaten for he doesn't get to defend himself.

And then you present your own system, but then he gets to attack your system. Okay? So that's going to be the third part here.

All right. All right. One, two, three.

DANG PO RANG REL PA ZE PE GONG PA SEL BAR SHES PA DANG DE NYID CHUN GYUR KHYEN PU LUG SU BRTEN PA DANG NYID And let's go get...

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. So what was the first of the three things we were going to talk about? What's the first of the three things we're going to talk about?

There's a sutra called the Ten Levels. In that sutra, they seem to say that even people who are not bodhisattvas can perceive emptiness directly. Okay?

It seems to say that. All right? So some statement by Lord Buddha that you don't have to have love to see emptiness directly.

Ultimate love. Okay? So for the first, we'll begin with a clear explanation of the intention.

That's correct. Oops. I would say true intention, okay?

Or true intent of the... Now this is tricky, okay? Dralpa Dze Pa is an abbreviation for Dralpa Dze Pa Po.

What's that mean? What's a Pa Po mean on anything? What's a Pa Po mean?

Yeah, somebody who does something. So a Dralpa Dze Pa Po is what? Say?

Yeah, the person who wrote the commentary. Okay? So that's tough.

They abbreviated it. So the clear intent, the true intent of the author of the commentary. Who is that?

We don't know. Okay? We don't know.

There's lots of Dralpa Dze Pas. There's like 10,000 for this text, okay? So we don't know yet.

All right? What's Je Tsongkhapa's text that we're commenting on? Gongpa Rabsel.

There's Gongpa Sel here in this sentence. He might be referring to Je Tsongkhapa himself. Okay?

It might be a pun. All right? So the first.

And then secondly, we'll demonstrate that this very position is the one held by the Cunju Khenpo. So, Khenpo doesn't always mean abbot. It can just mean a senior, what do you call it, like an elder.

Okay? Like in Vinaya, where's Chukki? Oh.

In Vinaya, what's a Khenpo? Yeah, it's your vow master. Okay?

And doesn't have anything to do with the boss of the monastery, for example. And Master Shantideva, it's just a nickname he got over the centuries. They call him the Master of the Bodhisattva's Way of Life.

All right? So, held by the Master of the Bodhisattva's Way of Life.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I don't know. I'm thinking just to make it an epithet. You know?

It could be. I thought about it. It's a good point.

I thought about it. It's kind of a cool ambiguity. Are you talking about him as an author or about his life?

You see? Okay. Let's go together.

One, two, three. DANG PO LA NGOS DANG THOG PA BYED PA NYID Okay? The first of these.

Oh, where is that? For the first point, we'll start with our... What did he promise us?

Oh, we'll start with our explanation and then go on to... You said, need to investigate. That's good.

BYED PA is investigate. Do you guys know THOG PA? Say THOG PA.

THOG PA. You got to pronounce it carefully, okay? I'll give you some words.

If you say NGDO, okay? NGDO. That's a dharma ritual.

NGDO means to turn back negative spirits. Right? NGDO.

Did you do a NGDO today? Yeah, we made dharmas all day and then we did a NGDO. You know?

Say NGDO. NGDO. Then there's a...

NGDO. Say NGDO. NGDO.

NGDO means a dirt cloud. Cloud of dirt. Okay?

Then this is what? Here. What is this?

THOG. THOG. It doesn't exist in English.

It is not an English D. It's a sexy D. THOG.

What are you doing tonight? THOG.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
You got to raise your eyebrows, okay? Try. THOG.

Okay. What are you doing tonight? THOG.

Okay? So, you don't say NGDO. You can't even do it.

NGDO. Okay? And you don't say THOG.

You say THOG. One more time. THOG.

All right. So this THOGPA means... THOGPA means...

It can mean superstition. It can mean ungrounded... What do you call it?

Suspicion? He has a THOGPA about me. What?

I don't know. He thinks I'm out to get him. You see what I mean?

Like that. He has a THOGPA. Sometimes it can mean a question in your mind.

Like I have a THOGPA about... Okay, you say this sutra says that these people without love can still see emptiness, but I have a THOGPA about it. And can we CHEPA that THOGPA?

So what does it mean now, Yat Vang? Can we CHEPA the THOGPA? Huh?

Yeah. Can we clear away the doubt?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And then we go on to clear away certain doubts about it.

[Speaker 2]
Okay? Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Okay. Okay.

One, two, three. DANG PO LA DO DE SA CHUG PA LAS BYANG SHEN SA DANG PO WE NYEN RANG RIG GI GONG NAS SIL GYI NON NYID LO'I GONG NAS SIL GYI NON MI NUS PA ZHES PA LA BRTEN NAS I want to talk about this word here, okay? Say, say NYI.

So, you know, a lot of Westerners are just lazy and they make all the U's U's, you know? Say NU. Then say NYI.

NU. NYI. NU means a woman's breast.

NYI means the power. So you gotta be careful, alright? Here you're gonna say what?

NYI. It's umlaut, okay? NYI.

DERV SHKOD. Right? NYI.

Alright, say NU. NYI. NU.

NYI. Okay, so it's NYI. And this is, it's LO.

What does LO mean? LO, I said LO. YEAR.

LO means year. Or it's the second half of LELO, which is lazy. But this says what?

LO. Say LO. LO.

It's not LO. Say LO. LO.

LO. LO. It's not necessarily higher, it's just kind of like more emphasized like, uh, yeah, I'm going.

Like you asked me ten times already, like yeah, okay? It's like yeah, it's not yeah, okay? Got it?

Okay. I don't know. We better break it out.

They're just like hopeless tonight. Okay? Maybe it'll help.

I don't know. I think it's we keep them up too late, right? They don't get to sleep in like we do.

Okay. Dhammala, where is, uh, oh, okay, now I have to open up the flash disk, right? What's it called?

Oh, this one, yeah. This one? Okay.

And we're going to use, oh, are we on to Mercedes already? Aha. Oopsie.

Okay. And let's try again. Not, oh, I'm sorry, this one, right?

Okay. All right. Mmm.

Oh, this looks pretty good. Mmm. All right.

Who did that?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Now for the first one. Uh, the, yeah, I'm just going to make it the sutra, oops, on the ten levels, says that, thank you, oh, okay, uh, says that, yeah, I'm going to say first level, okay? Uh, say these two words, sa, dhamboa, sa dhamboa.

Then say le, dhamboa. So, sa means bodhisattva level, right? It means ground.

What are the four elements in Tibetan? The four elements. Like, it should be like a mantra for you.

Say, sa chu me lung. Sa chu me lung. Sa chu me lung.

So, sa means earth. What's the place of the gods? Pla sa.

Pla sa, okay? Chu, water. Me, fire.

Lung, wind. Okay, so, sa dhamboa, dhamboa means first. So, what's a sa dhamboa?

A person who's a bodhisattva on the first bodhisattva level. What gets them on to the first bodhisattva level? What do you need to be a first level bodhisattva?

Two things. You have seen emptiness directly and under the influence of ultimate love. You want to save the world, okay?

Sa dhamboa. What's a le dhamboa? That's a beginner.

So, if the dhamboa says... What's le mean? Work, okay?

So, le dhamboa means a first worker, means a beginner, okay? Say, le dhamboa? Is a beginner.

Sa dhamboa? Is a person at the first bodhisattva level, okay? So, the Sutra on Ten Levels says that a first level bodhisattva...

I only capitalize enlightened beings. That's my rule. Then every time they refer to a lama, theoretically, you should capitalize it.

So, in the tantric readings we do that, but in the sutra readings, if they go out on the web, people will think, their key broke or something. Anyway, says that a first level bodhisattva outshines, good, listeners and self-made buddhas by virtue of their family. Nice.

Of their family. Just family, yeah? Oh, but that, okay?

But that they don't outshine them by virtue of their state of mind. Okay? Okay.

And then this piece we're going to do later. Hang on one sec. Okay.

Okay, now give me... Now for the first one, outshines listeners and self-made buddhas. Outshines listeners and self-made buddhas.

Oh, I'm okay. Outshine them. Okay?

So, Mercedes Benz, loy gone, silky nun, min, right here, min, yeah, but they don't outshine them.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Literally it says, but they can't, but I think do or don't is okay. All right? What was the example that we had, Nicole?

In the case of the child of the king, how did they outshine? Yeah, yeah, the prince outshines the ministers by virtue... The day after a baby is born to the royal family, that baby outshines even senior ministers by virtue of their family, but not by virtue of their intelligence or their state of mind, because they're not as clever yet as the ministers, but given time, they say, they will outshine them.

Okay? So, yeah, on the basis of this explanation, we can say that it is, well, this is, we can say that listeners and self-made Buddhas do or have, have, have perceived... Thank you.

[Speaker 2]
Wow.

[Speaker 1]
If this doesn't wake you up, it's bad. And then you'll crash in her class and start snoring during the meditation, so that's okay. I don't care.

On the basis of this, we can say that listeners and self-made Buddhas have perceived the subtle lack of a self to things directly. Why? I'll eat my cookie.

You'll tell me why. Say again? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, Jesse said, look, they said that these lower, people on a lower track, their minds surpassed the minds of the first-level Bodhisattva. So they must have seen emptiness directly, right? Yeah, you could say that.

Yeah. We're getting there. We're getting there, Subuddhi.

Subuddhi always brings up the next point. No, a good, a good, a good thinker in a class is already anticipating the next question because the books were written by omniscient beings who knew what you would think next. So, it's very normal in a scripture class in the monastery for some student to raise their hand and anticipate the next debate, you know.

Yeah, and the thing is, we're comparing people, right? We're comparing people. Like, he does outshine them.

Okay? He does outshine them. So they must be special.

Something must have happened. And their mind, right? Yeah, their state of mind is superior to the Bodhisattva's state of mind.

Okay? Let's read this. Oh, hang on.

One, two, three. DE LTAR MA YIN NA SA CHUG PAS LUNG DANG RGYAL BA SOG RIG PA SUM KHYI NUS PAS True. Spelling error.

Okay, if this were not the case, DE LTAR MA YIN NA, if this were not the case, we would be, what you say? What's nu mean? Do you know?

To hurt. To hurt somebody. But in logic, in logic, it means to be, how would you say that?

You'd be disproved. You know, you'd get in trouble somehow. You would be, how do you say that?

You don't say hurt, you see? His logic has blanked my position. It's hurt, but it's...

Undermine. Yeah, okay. Undermine is pretty good.

If this were not the case, we would be... I should say saying this is not the case. This is a position that is undermined by the three lines of logic.

What do you call it? Line of logic? Okay.

Huh? Yeah, that's what I meant to say. Trains of thought.

Three trains of thought. Reasoning. Lines of reasoning.

Yeah, yeah. Trains of thought. Lines of reasoning.

Beginning with contradicting the statement from the sutra on the ten levels. Which reason? Oh, you're right.

Okay. And this is true because... Okay.

All right. And we'll see. Okay.

Cittanunna. Okay, let's start. One, two, three.

Cittanunna. Shedja Chöchen. Chang-sam-thang-po-a-the.

Chi-yang-me. Men-che-la-chak-pa. Ngön-kyur-pa.

Tang-tral-we. Chi-ru-pa. Shun-du.

Nyen-rang-dra-chom-pa. Tong-nyi-to-pe-she-rab-kyi. Sul-kyi-nu-ne-pa-tha.

Ne-pa-tha. Ne-po-la-tong-nyi-to-pe-she-rab. Me-tsong-kong-shi.

Chang-sam-drel-la. This is tough. Okay, here we go.

Cittanunna. And just how would it be undermined? And just how would it be undermined?

Say, Shedja Chöchen. What's a Chöchen? Yeah, it's what we're going to debate about, you know?

Like somebody says, everything in the world is red, and you say, Nam-kha Chöchen. Means what? Consider the daytime sky, blue sky.

Red yin-ba-tao. Are you telling me it's red? Why?

Because it's a thing, alright? If you want to prove a universal thing, what would be the biggest Chöchen you could ever take? Yes, Shedja.

Take all the things in the universe. Chöchen. Okay?

All the things in the universe. Chöchen. Okay, let's consider all the things in the universe, which are knowable, which in Buddhism is a way to say, which exist.

Okay? Because the definition of existence itself is that which can be known by a correct perception. Okay?

So consider all the things in the world. Let's consider every knowable thing there is. I used to ask in Rinpoche, you know, Shedja, Shedja Chöchen, Chö-tam-je yin-ba-tao.

What's that mean? Shedja Chöchen. What's that mean?

Consider knowable things. Chö-tam-je yin-ba-tao. Are you telling me that's everything?

Then he would say, he'd say, duh. He'd say, right, it's everything. Then I'd say, Ngarangi Shedja Chöchen.

Which means what? Take all the things I know. The knowable things of me, of mine.

You know, Chö-tam-je yin-ba-tao. Oh, is it everything in the universe? And he'd say, of course he'd say, he wouldn't say no, he'd say what?

Chi-chir. He'd say, why do you say that? I'd say, Shedja yin-ba-chir.

Because it's a knowable thing. Everything I know is a knowable thing. You see what I mean?

And then one day I saw in a scripture, Sangye-gi Shedja. So, whenever you see Shedja, think what? Knowable by a Buddha.

Okay? Knowable by a Buddha at any given time. Okay?

That's helpful. Otherwise Shedja is a little confusing. All right?

Okay, let's consider every knowable thing there is. This gets hard. Chö-tam-je yin-ba-tao.

Huh? Oh, yeah. Where is that?

[Speaker 2]
Uh... Ven. Karmapa.

[Speaker 1]
This is hard. I don't know if you know this. Whoa, it is vibrating.

Oh, man. This is tough. This is really hard, okay?

But let's take it in pieces. Let me ask you this first. Let me ask you some questions.

Does the Sutra of the Ten Bodhisattva Levels say that bodhisattvas outshine people on a lower track? Yeah. Do we believe that it means people on a lower track who have even seen emptiness directly?

We believe that. But the other guy can't accept that. Okay?

He just can't accept that. He can't accept that someone without ultimate love could see ultimate reality directly. Okay?

He can't accept that. So, he's going to be in a position of this. We're going to say, Does the bodhisattva, like the person who was just born as the prince, outshine those lower practitioners?

He's going to say... What's he going to say? Yeah.

Is our opponent going to agree that bodhisattvas outshine people on a lower track? No, he's going to... No, the Sutra says they outshine them.

He's got to agree. He's got to agree. But then he's got to say what?

For a different reason. You know? Okay?

Our position is like this. When you say they even outshine somebody who blah blah blah, it's got to... They must be someone special.

They must be someone who's already seen emptiness directly. You see what I mean? It's got to...

The comparison has to be something extraordinary. The comparison has to be compelling. I'll say it again.

Oh, bodhisattvas outshine lower level practitioners because they're on a lower level. That's not such a big deal, you see? But if I say, look, even first level bodhisattvas, baby bodhisattvas, prince who's just been born, already outshines these other people, right?

Who are already fantastic. Who have already seen emptiness directly. Then that's a big deal to outshine them.

You see what I mean? It's not like to outshine somebody who hasn't got anywhere. So what?

All right? Okay. So, let's consider a normal thing.

Are you saying that a first level bodhisattva outshines a listener oops and self-made Buddhas who are already, what? Dāchobha, enemy destroyers and outshines... Let me think.

Are you saying that a first level bodhisattva outshines listener and self-made Buddhas by virtue of the bodhisattvas already, see? It's like this perception of emptiness. Is he saying that?

Careful. Careful. What did that guy have a problem with saying?

What's that guy have a problem with saying? Yeah. He has a problem with us saying that people who don't have ultimate love have seen emptiness directly.

So, for him, if the sutra says the bodhisattva outshines them, why does he outshine them? Because he has seen emptiness and they haven't. Got it?

Just nod. Okay. For him, the reason why the bodhisattva outshines the lower guys is because he's seen emptiness directly and they haven't.

He can't buy that they have seen emptiness directly. So, where are they? Who are they?

They're already in our heart, right? Question for you. If I say the sutra is talking about people on a lower path who are already in our heart, who are already in our heart, right?

Would he accept that? Would he accept that a baby bodhisattva outshines a person who has already attained nirvana? Would he say that?

Would he agree? Why not? No, he would give you a reason.

He'd say, the bodhisattva saw emptiness. He's a first level bodhisattva. He got to first level by seeing emptiness.

He outshines them. We say, are you talking about arhats? Lower arhats?

He says, yeah. I don't have a problem with that. Yeah, they already attained nirvana.

I don't have a problem with that. And he still outshines them. We're talking his point of view.

We're talking his point of view. He interprets the sutra as meaning that a bodhisattva outshines other people because he saw emptiness and they didn't. Got it?

Yeah, right. Right. You should come back with that in the next paragraph, but not now.

Okay. Who am I saying? By virtue of a bodhisattva's perception of emptiness.

Are you saying that a first level bodhisattva outshines listener and self-made Buddhas who are already enemy destroyers by virtue of the bodhisattva's perception of emptiness? Okay. Would we say that to him?

Yeah. We are saying that to him. I'll say it again.

I'm us. He's him. Okay.

And I say to him, okay, look, do bodhisattvas outshine the lower track people or not? Yeah. Why?

Bodhisattvas saw emptiness. Oh, so they didn't see emptiness? Right.

Even though there are hearts? Right. That's where we're at.

That's where we're at. Okay. Got it?

Got it? Okay. Now I got to fit in that middle part, right, Ben?

I got to somehow squeeze in that middle part. Okay. Okay.

So are you saying that these arhats are something like chirupa? Yeah, non-Buddhists who have been able to free themselves from a chakpa. Yeah, or attachment, right?

Attachment. Oops. And then Betsy is going to say, you said, attachment.

And I'm going to say, because it says ngungyurwa. What's ngungyurwa? That's munsum.

Do not, that's a rule. Do not mix up munsum and ngungyur. Okay.

Munsum means direct perception. If it don't say sum, it's not direct perception. It's manifest.

So, for example, is a bakchak ngungsum? Ngungyur, sorry. Is a bakchak ngungyur?

Yeah, well, to whom is a good question, right? But it hasn't manifested itself yet. Okay.

So manifest, manifest, from manifest. What's the implication? Oh, he got rid of manifest attachment.

Means what? He still has the seeds. He still has the seeds.

I haven't had any manifest anger for the last 15 minutes. Means what? I'm pissed off inside, but I haven't yelled at anybody.

Okay? All right? I'm very good at not manifesting my mental afflictions.

If you're a teacher, you have to get good at that. Okay. To be able to feel this, that's a manifest attachment for or towards jiyangme.

What's jiyangme? You should know. If you were in the Bhogjimba Kamalashila class, Bhogjimba 1, was it?

Kamalashila? Bhogjimba 1? Number 1.

What was the point of disagreement between Master Kamalashila and Bodhisattva Hwasang? Yeah, that's jiyangme. Say jiyangme.

Jiyangme. Me means what? Not exist.

Jiyang means anything at all. Say jiyang. Jiyang.

Jiyangme. Nothing. Okay?

It's like that. And even it sounds like that, right? Jiyangme.

Let's meditate on jiyangme. Empty your mind of thought. You know what I mean?

Like that. Jiyangme. Okay?

Jiyangme. You'll probably get that in Bhogjimba in half an hour. In the Doha, the so-called Dohas.

Did you tell them yet the two of the Dohas are correct? Well, okay. Manifested Chakras, right?

One of them. Okay, okay. Genuine.

Genuine. Okay. Manifested attachment for.

But, jiyangme is also a name for a certain level of reality of the world. I believe it's the, it's the fourth level of the formless realm. It's called nothing at all.

Okay? So they have been able to free themselves from manifested attachment for everything from nothing. Whoa.

There it is. Jiyangme. Nothing at all.

So you have to know, say, well, yeah, you can say shirakki number ten. Shirakki number ten. Shirakki number ten.

So, in three-year retreat, in the first couple weeks, we decided we're going to not, we're going to get ourselves off of lattes. We're staying in a tent, right? Like, nobody can make us lattes anyway.

No, but we were drinking lattes big time just before three-year retreat, right? We were in coffee shops all the time because we used to work there, like Vesalka's and, what's the one on First Avenue? The Polish one.

But anyway, we were drinking lattes big time. Then we get into three-year retreat, you know, and they're like, we're embarrassed to ask them for lattes because they can't even get any food. They're sending us Twinkies and there was no kitchen, there was no nothing.

Sorry. No, at that first week, I mean, later we were getting guacamole and sushi and everything, but at the beginning it was a little rough. So we started to drink Tibetan tea, okay?

All right? Got it? So that's like very strongly caffeine, but it's not as bad as coffee, okay?

So that's a shiraki nambachen. You drop down more subtle, little more subtle. You go from lattes to poja.

Say poja. Tibetan tea, right? Poja.

Then you say, okay, we're going off Tibetan tea and we're going on to celestial seasons, rubois. Okay? No, like that's shiraki nambachen.

You're getting more subtle. You can picture it this way if you want. Here's coffee.

Here's latte. Here's black tea. And here's rubois.

Okay, where do you go after that? Mint tea, please. Okay?

Malte. You go up, you go up like that, okay? And then you reach...

Yeah, hot water with lemon. Water with a lot of honey in it. I know.

And then you get like up to water. Okay? All right?

Have you abandoned desire? You see? You see?

You're just getting more subtle in your desires. Don't give Geshe Michael his lemon on that day and see what happens. You see what I mean?

Like before, if he didn't have a latte, he would have freaked out. But he still has attachment. You see?

It's more subtle now. You're just going more and more subtle in attachment. You see?

So that's what happens when you move up through the desire realm and the form realm and the formless realm. By the time you get to the first level of the form realm, you're not so interested in sex and food anymore. Okay?

You've overcome the objects of the desire realm, but you are not free from the attitude of desire. You still have desire. And Buddhists picked on non-Buddhists because texts like the Yoga Sutra, they say, Oh, go up that Shiraki number 10 thing.

Try to get to water. Try to get to lemon water. You feel so happy.

You feel so... You feel like, Gee, I'm mad. Nothing at all.

You see what I mean? No, it's in the first chapter of the Yoga Sutra, right? You go up through those levels and you...

No, you get a feeling. If you stop drinking coffee, tea, Rubeus, anything, you do reach some kind of a peaceful state. You are in some kind of a peaceful state, but you will get old and die in that peaceful state.

You see? It's not freedom. It's not liberation.

You see what I mean? And you know that. You can get good at yoga.

You can get to do... What do you call it? I don't know.

You can do all sorts of weird things. You're just getting more subtle in a desire thing. You know what I mean?

And then you'll still get old and die. You see what I mean? You have to be careful that yoga doesn't become that.

Physical yoga. Asana practice. It doesn't become, Oh, I'm more flexible than anybody.

You know what I mean? Because, you know, give it another five years and you'll be less flexible than anybody. It's just time.

Right? So... Now, what does that have to do with what we're talking about here?

Okay? This is the debate. Got it?

We go up to the sky. Did the Sutra on the Ten Levels say that Bodhisattvas outshine these lower track people? He would say, Yeah.

Oh, well, what is it about the First Level Baby Bodhisattva that outshines the lower track people? What would he say? Oh, that Bodhisattva sentience directly.

Oh. So, let's get this clear. Are the lower people we're talking about, are they already arhats?

What would he say? I don't care. Yeah, they can be arhats.

I don't care. Are you telling me that they are arhats and they haven't seen emptiness directly? What would he have to say?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So, what makes them in our heart? What makes them so special?

They don't care about anything. They're just... They don't care about anything.

They're up to water and lemon. Okay? They're up to this subtle, subtle...

They don't even care for the attractive things of the highest level in samsara. They're up there. They're up past water and lemon.

They're up to water. You know? Oh!

So, they're no different from like Hindu yogis who get up to the same point. Right? And think that's nirvana.

Right? Duh! He has to say duh.

That's where we're at. That's where we're at. This is very important for anybody who's in a spiritual practice.

You know? Are we just trying to get so peaceful that almost nothing can bother us? But then we just get old and die like that?

You know? Is that the goal? Or are we trying to go somewhere higher than that?

Is there a higher place than that? You see? And that's where the debate has taken us.

It's very beautiful. It's very beautiful. Got it?

Okay. It's nice. And it's a goddamn hard sentence.

So, okay. Really bad sentence. You should have made it easier.

Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
This is cool.

[Speaker 1]
This is a wrap-up. He's like, what does he have to say? Are you telling me?

What does he have to say? I mean, generally, what will he say? Well, he's going to say teacher, you know?

Who said that? I didn't say they were just like non-Buddhists who just got very subtle. I didn't say that.

Okay? I didn't say that. He didn't say that directly.

Yet. We're trying to prove to him that he's as well as said it. Got it?

Did he say it directly? No. Has he as good as said it?

That's what we would say.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
All right. Let's see what he says. So he says, I didn't say that.

I didn't say that. And then we say, ready? Yeah.

Yeah. And just, oh, how would it? Yeah.

Okay. Okay. By the way, his thinking undermines the sutras and all that.

That's the idea. Okay. One, two, three.

DE NYID PO LA SDONG NYID DOG PAS SYE RAB MED TSUNG GANG ZHING BYANG SEM DE LA SDONG NYID DOG PAS SYE RAB YOD PA'I PHYIR Hmm. Catholic break and everything. Okay.

All right. Do it on your opponent's head, not your table. Okay.

Okay. This is true. Firstly, because those, I'm going to say enemy destroyers.

Okay. And non-Buddhists. Yeah, you're right.

It's right. But he said TSUNG. What's TSUNG mean?

Yeah, they're just the same. Are just the same. In that they, you see, both lack the wisdom which perceives emptiness.

Yeah, cool. Okay. Okay.

So, I'll say it again. We're like, oh, are you, are you saying that the Bodhisattva outshines lower track people because they're just like these yogis who just went off into like, like water, no desires. They don't want anything.

Offer them a Twinkie, they're like, no thanks. Well, offer them water, they're like, no thanks. Jiyangme.

Okay. Are you saying that, are you saying that's the kind of people he's comparing the Bodhisattva to? And he'd say, well, he said Cicir.

He said, why are you saying I said that? Well, because you're implying that these lower practitioners are just the same as those yogis in that they have not yet, what? They haven't seen emptiness.

And then you're saying that the Bodhisattva has seen emptiness. And that's what makes him so much cooler. According to you.

Okay. So, according to him, what distinguishes the son of the king from the ministers? Yeah.

Oh, they're high, like they're very high, they've gone very high. But he sees emptiness directly. Are you telling me that lower arhats haven't seen emptiness directly?

Right. Are you telling me that people who have already achieved nirvana, although on a lower track, haven't seen emptiness directly, he would say? Right.

They just got very subtle. They just got very subtle. Okay.

We have any more time left, McNally? You want me to spend more time? Okay.

I'll do another 15 minutes, okay? We'll do another 15 minutes. Yeah.

This slide? Oh. Oh, okay, cool.

All right. Oh, this is good. Let's read it together.

Take a moment to, you tell me, who was just talking? Us or them? Yeah, because we said, oh, are you saying that these lower Buddhist saints who have reached nirvana are just the same as those spaced-out yogis, right?

Okay. So, here we go. So, if there were a Tao coming up, would it be going up or down?

He's going to say, I never said that. And we're going to say, you did too. Okay.

Which means we're going, okay, I'm just helping you. One, two, three. Dak-tang-po-de-ta.

Nyen-lang-da-jung-pa-la. Dong-ni-tok-pe-she-la. Me-re-she.

So, Kendra, what little tiny two-letter word do we have to add here? It's so true, okay? The first reason it's so true, because enemy destroys and listener and self-made types lack the reason.

That's perfect. First, perfect. All right.

Okay. Did he say that? Yeah, essentially.

Michael's got it right. Essentially, he said that. He didn't say it directly yet, but essentially he said that, right?

He said, baby bodhisattvas outshine lower track people because they saw emptiness directly. So, essentially, what has he said? That they haven't seen emptiness directly, even though they have reached nirvana.

Okay? So, we're just like rubbing it in. We're just like rubbing it in.

What was the first reason we gave? Oh, they don't have the... They're just like non-Buddhists.

They don't have the direct perception of emptiness. Okay? Even enemy destroyers don't have the direct perception of emptiness.

One, two, three. NYAN RANG DRA BCOM PA PHYIR CHEN PHYIR RÖG PAR BZHIN DU KHAMS SUN NA SPYOD PAS DRA RGYAS THAM CHE MA SPANG PAR We're kind of going on to a new subject. So, what would you guess?

Yeah, he's going down. If you've been on a line of thought, you go up. Let's consider NYAN RANG DRA BCOM PA enemy destroyers of the listener and self-made Buddha types.

Like Bill Gates wants to capitalize Buddha. I know. Okay.

He's like red line.

[Speaker 2]
No way. All right.

[Speaker 1]
Are you saying that they are... Who's up, by the way? Darsinha.

This is good. The chunks are a good size, Alistair. That's good.

I like it. Yeah, I like the chunks. But the size of chunks is good.

Are you saying that they are BZHIN DU? No, not BZHIN DU. Not BZHIN DU.

BZHIN DU. Are you saying that they are similar to Chidobas, non-Buddhists, meaning non-Buddhist yogis, right? And by the way, non-Buddhist doesn't mean Buddhist.

I mean, there's lots of Indian yogis who saw emptiness directly and there's lots of Buddhists who haven't. Okay? They're just...

It's just a word they use. Got it? There's lots of Buddhist yogis who haven't seen emptiness and who are on the lemon tea thing and lemon water thing and there's lots of non-Buddhists who have seen emptiness directly and, you know.

Okay? They're just using it for... I don't know.

It's just an example. Okay? Are you saying that they are similar to non-Buddhists in that they mapang, haven't...

Darci? Mapang? Haven't...

Yeah. Or I'd say eliminated, okay? Haven't eliminated all the...

Yeah. Chagay. Chag means subtle.

Gay means what? Like in sangye. What does the gay in sangye mean?

Yeah, like wide, like the ocean. What's the Dalai Lama's name in Tibetan? You know, Gyatso.

Tenzin Gyatso. Gya, wide. What's Gyatso?

A wide lake, which is in Mongolian? Bale. Okay?

Bale. Okay. When does he get his award?

Yeah. Oh, we have to... Oh, we'll have people here having a party already.

What time? On what channel? CNN?

Anyway, turn on your TV if... Does anybody have a TV? You can pick it up on the...

Oh, I'm not confused there. You can get it. Okay.

Can you... Jigme, can you send out an email to all the students?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
About where to see it. Okay. He's getting the Medal of Honor from the Congress, I think.

The highest award in the United States. Okay. Are you saying that they are similar to non-Buddhists and that they...

For being non-peaceful, I mean for being non-violent, he's going to get the award from the most violent man on the planet. Okay. All right.

Are you saying that they are similar to non-Buddhists and that they haven't eliminated... Oh, okay. So, we've got to talk about tage.

Tage means subtle. Ge means wide, right? Tage is an Abhidharmakosha word for what is insidious and widespread.

Your negative emotions. Your own mental afflictions. So, nyomong and tage are synonyms.

They are synonyms. Almost. I mean almost.

There's some technical differences, okay? But when you say tage, you're going to think insidious and widespread, meaning mental afflictions, okay? I used to call them all the widespread mental afflictions.

Just to make it different, because someday there'll be a debate in the text between what? Tage and nyomong. And then you'll be using mental affliction for both, you'll be in trauma, okay?

So, are you saying that they are similar to non-Buddhists and they haven't eliminated all the widespread mental afflictions? Kamsum na chöpa. Kamsum is three realms.

Chöpa means to act or operating. There's a reason for saying that, okay? I'll give you a question.

There's a Buddhist level called jiyangme. There's a level of reality called jiyangme. Jiyangme is like nine levels up from the desire realm.

We're in the desire realm, okay? Then there's four form realm levels and there's four formless realm levels. Up here is jiyangme, okay?

Highest samsaric level you can reach. Your mind is like nothing, okay? Where is that in the Yoga Sutra, McNally?

What's it say? Right after, in the first chapter. Togpa, it's about cara vichara.

It's four levels. Cara vichara nanda, asmita. Okay, say cara, what's it?

Tarka? Vitarka vichara nanda asmita. Say vitarka, vichara, nanda, asmita.

This is a Hindu text. This is jiyangme. They are talking about it.

Asmita means I am nothing. Asmita, okay? Asmita, I've gone into nothing.

So, if a person reaches the ninth level, up here, jiyangme, and if this is the desire realm and these four are the form realm and these four are the formless realm, okay? And they overcome attachment even to being spaced out, right? Really.

Somehow they have transcended all three realms. Okay, that's what he's saying here. Have they eliminated mental affliction operating in all three realms?

Okay, no anger, no desire, no hatred, no nothing for all three realms, okay? Are you saying that? Are you saying that they are similar to non-Buddhists and that they have not eliminated all the widespread mental afflictions?

Would a Buddhist say that a non-Buddhist had eliminated all mental afflictions? No. They'd say they're in a very, very, very subtle, very peaceful, and very, very, what do you call it?

Addictive state of mind. Very attractive. It feels like nirvana, okay?

But a Buddhist would say they haven't eliminated what? They haven't eliminated their mental afflictions. The seeds are there.

The seeds are there, okay? Because just eating healthier and healthier food doesn't overcome your desire for food. You see?

It helps. It definitely helps. Like, if you can get in a more subtle state of mind, you can easier go to nirvana.

So it's a useful practice. It's an important practice. You can't be stuffing your face with turkey and see emptiness directly.

It's not going to happen. You see what I mean? Like that, all right?

Well, sort of. Okay. So, but what are we accusing the other guy of?

Are you saying these arhats haven't destroyed their mental afflictions? Are you saying that? Okay.

Then what's he going to say? Mabpa-tao. This is me.

This is us. Mabpa-tao. Nyomong Mabpa-tao.

Chagye Mabpa-tao. Are you telling me that these arhats haven't got rid of their negative emotions? What's he going to say?

Jesus, I didn't say that. Who said that? Okay.

You got to be like a diamond dealer. I didn't say 50, I said 40. Who said 50?

Okay. All right. You know, right?

Thank you. Okay, we'll do one more sentence because it's a beautiful sentence. One, two, three.

This was smuggled to me by a student. I have to use it for something. Yeah, okay.

Paperweight. Look at this cookie before it disappears. Look at it as if it came from sharing with others in the past.

Look at it as if it came from sharing with others in the past. It has nothing to do with a flower factory or a chocolate chip factory or money to buy it in a store. Nothing.

Its very existence is solely dependent upon sharing with other people in the past. Look at it that way. Now look at it as though it came to me because I paid some money.

Okay? Those two ways of looking in Tibetan are called zintang. Say zintang.

Zintang. Here it says ngungyal. Ngungyal means here's the big question.

If you get this question, I get to eat the rest of the cookie. Are those two ways of looking at the cookie mutually exclusive? They are.

So we say, in Tibetan we say, say zintang which means way of looking at the cookie. Ngungyal. Mutually contradictory.

That means you cannot entertain the thought that this came because I bought it and at the same time entertain the thought that I have a cookie because I shared cookies in the past. Got it? You cannot entertain both thoughts in the same mind at the same time.

Impossible. Two people sitting next to each other can entertain the opposite thoughts. But one person in one person's mind cannot at the same moment entertain the thought that it comes from being kind to others and entertain the thought that I can get one anytime I want no matter how I act towards others if I have the money.

Okay? The second idea is poison and wrong and unreal. That's not true.

You can have money and the store can be just closed. You cannot have money and have somebody bring you one. So here's our last statement to the other guy.

Are you telling me that those lower arhats have never found the state of mind which is mutually exclusive with thinking the thing comes from money? I'll say it again. Yeah, we're saying it to the other guy.

Are you telling me those lower Buddhist arhats have never reached the state of mind which contradicts the idea that you can get this if you have money? He'd have to say duh, right? He'd have to say right because they haven't seen emptiness directly.

You get to go home. I'll say it again. One more time.

It's cool, right? You got to hang in there. Mentally, you got to hang in there.

Have some more chocolate. Are you telling me these lower arhats have never reached the state of mind which is directly contradictory to the idea that you can get this with money? And he'd say, yeah, that's what I'm saying, which is tantamount, as Michael said, to saying, are you telling me they haven't seen emptiness directly?

Okay, got it? That's so cool. All right, to be continued next week.

Can you do a mandala offering with your mouth full? We'll cut that. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Bye. Copyright © 2020 Mooji Media Ltd. All Rights Reserved.

No part of this recording may be reproduced