Вступление на срединный путь (текущий курс, Аризона), занятие 65

[Speaker 1]
We did Sipa Bhangra. We're on Sipa Bhangra on the fact that Bodhisattvas who just saw emptiness outshine even people who have reached Nirvana in the lower path. And we have picked on this other guy, and in Sipa Bhangra he gets to come back and defend himself.

So, he's going to say to us, consider a Bodhisattva who has just given birth to the ultimate form of bodhichitta, which is the direct perception of emptiness. So, somebody just went into the direct perception of emptiness. Do they have great compassion and bodhichitta or not?

Regular bodhichitta. And they use the word just-venerable, which means in the next instant, so they're still in the direct perception of emptiness. Does a non-Buddha in the direct perception of emptiness have, can they have bodhichitta in their mind at the same time?

No. Don't try to bring a punch line. OK.

Now, he's telling us, if you say that the bodhisattva does outshine people in the lower path because they have bodhichitta, then you contradict yourself. Because earlier you said they couldn't have bodhichitta while they're in the direct perception of emptiness. Right?

So, during their direct perception of emptiness, they can't have ultimate love anymore, so they don't outshine, during that time, they don't outshine people on the lower path. Even, OK? Got it?

All right? If you say they don't outshine them, then you're wrong, because we have five different quotations that said they do outshine them. All right?

OK? So, he's got us either way. He's got us in a diamond situation.

Then we go back to him. All right? Are you saying that a person who's just about to achieve enlightenment, a person in the final moments before enlightenment, are you saying they have bodhichitta in their mind?

Right? It's the same question, right? It's the same question.

According to you, they should have bodhichitta in their mind. Because a person who just saw emptiness, a bodhisattva who just saw emptiness has bodhichitta in their mind. According to you.

OK? Got it? No.

Just nod. Every time I say got it, just nod. Whether you know what I'm talking about or not.

This is already something new for you. Maybe you did it with your mom, I don't know.

[Speaker 2]
OK.

[Speaker 1]
Suppose you agree. OK. Yeah, a person in the moments just before enlightenment, they do have bodhichitta in their mind.

Love. Ultimate love in their mind. Let's consider that state of mind.

Is it infected by seeing things the wrong way? OK? So, they're just about to achieve enlightenment.

Right? Is it infected or not? Their love for all beings.

Is it infected or not? And we say because it's a mind of a person who is not yet enlightened and who is not in the... which is not the direct perception of emptiness.

OK? What's the implication? Any state of mind for any person who is not enlightened, which is not the direct perception of emptiness, is infected and wrong.

OK? That's like... That's like a very radical statement.

You have something like... I don't know. You have...

You have... I don't know. You have like a hundred perceptions a minute or something or every few minutes you have.

To see me for a second is 65 perceptions and then they're all wrong. Everything's wrong. Everything you ever...

ever thought, everything you've ever seen was wrong. OK? According to this.

OK? According to Madhyamika. And then he quotes to prove that.

So if you say this person has a mind... a state... who?

The bodhisattva is just about to get enlightenment. If you say they do have a... a state of mind which is infected by ignorance, are you saying they have a shivit, an obstacle to omniscience?

OK? An obstacle to becoming a Buddha. And then he says, well...

any state of mind which is infected would be an obstacle to omniscience. OK? That's how far we got.

That's how far we are. All right? Here we go.

Let's read it together. EG DAW DIN DÖ NA NYEN PO GANG GYUR GYI TSU GYI PHANG JAK GANG GYUR PONG BAR DÖ Who went off? Let's do that again.

You gotta go down. All right? Are you telling me?

You gotta go down. Are you telling me? All right?

It's sarcastic. Are you telling me? One more time.

DÖ NA NYEN PO GANG GYUR GYI TSU GYI PHANG JAK GANG GYUR PONG BAR DÖ GYUN THA WE GYUR LA SHI RIN YOD RE OK? Suppose you agree. To what?

Very effectively. Next step. That they have an obstacle tone issue.

OK? Suppose you agree. Then, then isn't it the case, isn't it the case then that they eliminate undesirable qualities at this point in a way where both the antidote state of mind and the thing it eliminates blink out.

Blink out of existence? Sounds good.

[Speaker 2]
Blink out. Lift off. OK?

[Speaker 1]
And we said it last time. And we used the example of an aspirin and a headache. Right?

So, is an aspirin a NYEN PO for a headache? Yes. I mean, generally speaking, yes.

OK? Does an aspirin help fix the headache? Yes.

So, you have a headache and then you take the aspirin and then, you know, in one school of thought, the power of the aspirin and the power of the headache, they start out like this and then as each moment goes by, they're both dropping. That's called, say, GANGYUR. Two prenasals.

GANGYUR. GANGYUR GITSU. GANGYUR GITSU.

The power of the aspirin and the power of the headache are both descending at the same time. You see what I mean? So, the aspirin should be at its maximum power when?

The moment you take it. Because that's when your headache is worst. And as the aspirin affects the headache, the headache starts to drop and then the aspirin doesn't have to be so strong anymore and then they both blink out at the same moment.

The power of the aspirin stops and the headache stops at the same time. You know, if the aspirin works. OK?

And there's another school of thought. These are both Abhidharma schools of thought. One is a HINAYANA Abhidharma school and one is a MAHAYANA Abhidharma school.

The other school says, no, they should go like this. The power of the headache should descend but the power of the aspirin is ascending. And only in the moment that the headache blinks out does the aspirin reach its true aspirin-ness as an antidote.

Only then can you say this is a true antidote. You see? It is most powerful.

It is most antidote-ish in the moment that the headache is gone because then it's proven itself. Then it deserves the name of headache, what do you call it, remedy. It earns the name upon the blinking out of the headache.

Or you can't call it a headache remedy. I mean, before it, you can't call it a headache remedy and tell it does something to the headache. Then you could call a brick a headache remedy.

But that's true, it could be a headache remedy.

[Speaker 2]
OK.

[Speaker 1]
OK. So, isn't it the case then that they eliminate it? Isn't that the case now?

If you believe what? What's the line of thought here? You can't lose the line of thought.

If you believe that a person in the final moments just before enlightenment could have an obstacle to knowledge, to omniscience, then it must be that the Nyanbo in their mind is eliminating the undesirable states in their mind in this manner. And that's why I left you last week and you were supposed to debate it and figure out why that's the case. I don't know why that's the case.

OK. All right. That's supposed to somehow be logical.

I'll say it again. If a person in the final moment just before enlightenment could still have an obstacle to omniscience, which in this case was what? Their bodhicitta.

Why? Because it's infected. Why?

Because it's a state of mind in a person who's not enlightened, which is not the direct perception of emptiness. OK? All right?

So, if they have an obstacle to omniscience in their mind, which is their bodhicitta right now, yeah, their infected bodhicitta, OK? If they have an obstacle to omniscience in their mind, then it must be the case that the fixer in their mind and the thing to be fixed blink out at the same time. Now, why that follows, you were supposed to worry about that.

I was supposed to have the week off. OK. Jīntā wa jīla.

And then the guy says, which means what? Why did you say that? I mean, what's the connection?

Why is it necessarily the case that whatever antidote is in that person's mind must eliminate its object in this kind of manner? Why do you say that? Cīcīr.

Then he says, he says cīcīr. And then we say, OK? Because there does exist an obstacle an obstacle to omniscience in the mind stream of a person who is, what did we call him before?

Did we have a translation for that yet? At the final end of the stream. We called him at the final end of the stream.

OK? Because there does exist an obstacle to omniscience. Tāmadu?

Jīntā wa jīla cīr meata. Are you telling me there's no cīr in the mind of the person who's just about to achieve enlightenment? You're telling me there's no obstacle to omniscience in that person's mind?

So there is an obstacle to omniscience in that person's mind. So then he'd have to say something like, Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you said tāmadu.

OK. OK. So anyway, he's stuck and he says, duh.

All right. He didn't say catfish. And if you agree to that, now suppose you agree to that.

Let's read it together. N, E, D, T, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, D, He's like, I'm not going to get caught. I'm going to do it in a minute.

In a debate, you've got to have a male organ. You've got to have, you've got to be, you know, you've got to say something strongly, and then, you know, take whatever comes, like a man. OK, even if you're not.

OK, yin ba ta, say yin ba ta. OK, let's keep going. Dong yi, ngun, sung, du, to, pe, nyam, shak, yi, shi, ma, yin, pe, lo, pe, she, pa, yin, pe.

We didn't do this already? I swear we did this already, no? Yeah, we already did this.

I don't know why it's in here twice. It's a waste. Oh, that's too bad.

How did it get in there twice?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, that's A-bomb.

[Speaker 1]
I guess from here, right? Sorry. We finished the keptie, right?

I hope so. Yeah, OK, sorry. All right.

That was a nice review. All right. Did we do it?

Are you sure?

[Speaker 2]
I think we're catching it. We did not kienpo.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah, I finished it. Yeah, we didn't know this. OK, sorry.

What's happening?

[Speaker 2]
I have kienpo.

[Speaker 1]
Dena? Nyambo?

[Speaker 2]
We did not do it. We just translated it. We just did do not kienpo.

Control-Z.

[Speaker 1]
Control-Z? What's Control-Z doing?

[Speaker 2]
It makes it all add together again. All right. I guess I was supposed to read kajik.

[Speaker 1]
I have to go down to kajik, right? What comes after keptie?

[Speaker 2]
We did not kienpo.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, OK. But I just translated this, right? But you just translated it.

I'll do it again. Suppose you agree. Does anybody have that?

Yeah. Can you read it to me? Suppose you agree.

OK.

[Speaker 2]
Isn't it the case, then?

[Speaker 1]
Hang on. I agree. Isn't it the case, then?

[Speaker 2]
That they eliminate undesirable qualities at this point in a way where both the antidote, state of mind, and the thing it eliminates link out of existence? Because there does exist.

[Speaker 1]
I'll say it together. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
An obstacle to omniscience in the mind stream of a person who is at the final end of the stream.

[Speaker 1]
OK. We beat him. Let's go on.

There's two things you can do. I mean, when you get to a problem like that, why would that prove that? You can go study other yukjas.

Or you can just keep going through the book, and it will be clarified in a year or something like that. I don't know. What do you want to do?

Yeah? We'll do a little bit. I'll show you a little bit of what I would do personally.

And we may not resolve it, but at least we'll learn more about it. So I would look up Gangyur Gitu. You know, and I'd see, has anybody discussed this idea in more detail?

You know? Is there somebody who's talked about that in more detail? Would I look in the Gangyur, the Tengyur, or the Sumbum?

Yeah, Sumbum being the Tibetan commentaries. Because Gangyur's too old. Tengyur's too old.

You're not going to find. Those are really, really old, and they don't break things down. Like, the people were working half on ESP at the time.

Really. Really. And they just don't break things down for people who don't have ESP.

OK? So anyway, Sumbum. Any particular place?

Yeah, Uma. OK. All right.

So here we've hit a nice one. Nyenpong Gangyur Gitu Dipangja Gangyur Pongta. In what text?

Umachiren. That's the text we're in. That doesn't help anybody.

This is nice. This is nice. I'll read it.

OK? I'll just read it to you. Nyipa dir nyi tsul jitapao ni.

How does someone get rid of the two obstacles, one to nirvana and one to omniscience? Jir, par chen me lang dipangja pong tsul la. When you're talking about how the uninterrupted path eliminates an undesirable quality, OK, what's an uninterrupted path mean?

[Speaker 2]
The direct perception of emptiness.

[Speaker 1]
The direct perception of emptiness. So when someone says uninterrupted path, you have to think direct perception of emptiness. Why is it uninterrupted?

It's never interrupted by a non, by any kunzop state of mind, by any state of mind of normal reality. OK? You can't think about what's for dinner.

You can't even think, what? I did it. I still have to do it.

During that time, you can't think anything. So it's uninterrupted by any normal path. Jir, par chen me lang dipangja.

By the way, somebody who's a gyuntawa, which is what? Someone in the final moments of, before they get enlightened. They're always in par chen me lang.

They're in par chen me lang. OK? They're in the direct perception.

All right? Nyen pö rang gi pang jang gang gi gyi tsul dupao dang. Nyen pö rang gi pang jang, gen gyur gyi tsul dupao nyi ne.

OK? Either you can have the antidote, which is stopping the undesirable quality, in a way in which they both blink out at the same time. Or, Nyen pö rang gi pang jang, gen gyur gyi tsul dupao nyi ne.

Or you can have the antidote eliminating the undesirable quality in a way in which the power of the antidote is increasing as it goes. OK? Gen gyur gyi tsul dupao.

So gang gyur gyi tsul dupao and gen gyur gyi tsul dupao. The first of these two, dzö gyi lug yin te. That's the kosha system.

What's that? Abhidharma kosha. The famous kosha.

Which would mean what? What school? Of the four schools?

The lowest. The Abhidharmas. OK?

The higher knowledge school. The lowest of all the classical schools of India. Buddhist schools of India.

Yin te dzö re. Mi lob sen yin gen gyur wang. Gyur pa len yin nam du gyur.

That's weird. OK. Mi lob sen yin gen gyur wang.

Gyur pa len yin nam du gyur. As the mind of enlightenment, no more learning is growing, you are freed from the gyur pas. Gang bar gyur pe lang gyi ni, dey gyur pa probably.

Rab du pao. You are freed from the gyur pas. A path.

By the way, nam du here means what? Do you know nam du lam? What's the path of liberation?

When you're talking about the uninterrupted path. Do you know? That's important to know, OK?

Yeah. Like in the direct perception of emptiness, when you have your first direct perception of emptiness, there are two periods going on. One is called pa ching me lang and one is called nam du lang.

Say pa ching me lang. Nam du lang. What is your direct perception of emptiness eliminating the first time you see emptiness directly?

The intellectual belief that the world is normal. The intellectual belief thinking that your mind is OK. Let's put it that way.

And then doubt about the past. And certain kinds of weird morality. During the direct perception of emptiness, during the time that it takes to see emptiness directly, the antidote is working on the two kinds of wrong thoughts.

During that time, there's a conflict going on. There's a battle going on. And the direct perception of emptiness is fighting.

I think of it like Ajax or sink cleaner. They meet at the first moment of the direct perception of emptiness. During the direct perception of emptiness, it's grinding away at your wrong understanding.

Cosmically, there's a grinding away at your wrong understanding by the direct perception of emptiness. During those 10 minutes or 15, 20 minutes, whatever. But at the end, when you pop out, you're at what's called nam du lang.

Nam du lang means path of liberation, but it refers to the state in which you are now free of those undesirable qualities. The work is done. Both the sink cleaner and the hair that was stuck in the pipe, they have both dissolved each other.

You see? The sink cleaner worked their way at the hair and dissolved it. And now both of them mix together and they just go down the drain.

So, nam du lang means all the fight is over and all the stuff is dissolved and it's all gone. But during Parche Melam, what? No, during Parche Melam, the cleaner is working on the hair.

It's dissolving the hair. Dissolve, dissolve, dissolve, dissolve. When it's done, you reach nam du lang.

And nam du lang doesn't have to be a direct perception of emptiness anymore. You're done. The stuff goes down the sink and it's all done.

So nam du lang means, you can always think of nam du lang as meaning you're just sitting there without those bad qualities anymore. You're like free. That's why it's called the path of liberation.

Got it? Why is that important here? Because the Abhidharmakosha says in the arisal of the mind of enlightenment you are for the first time free of what?

No. Siddhis. You're free of obstacles to omniscience.

In the first moment of omniscience you are what? You're free of the obstacles to omniscience. So we could call the last moment before Buddhahood a Parche Melam.

And we could call the first moment of Buddhahood a nam du lang. Got it? I'll say it again.

The last moment before enlightenment your direct perception of emptiness is working on your final obstacles. Like the drain on the hair. And then in the first moment of enlightenment you will reach a new nam du lang.

Which is enlightenment. And everything's already dissolved down the drain. And you're just sitting there in the end result.

You're sitting at the moment of cleanliness of the pipe. You see what I mean? Like that.

It's very important. So what the Abhidharma says you are nam du lang from the Drupas. You are path of liberation from the obstacles to omniscience.

Which means you're in the first moment of Buddhahood. Nice. Gang par gyur be lam kyi ni The path which gets you there the Parche Melam the uninterrupted path is acting in a gang gyur gyur tsum.

Its power is descending as you get closer to enlightenment. Because the power of the of the hair is descending. So the power of the Ajax is descending.

The drain on it. But their power, it's losing its power as it melts away hair. And the hair is melting away.

So gang gyur gyur tsum. De gyur, this is misspelled. De gyur par rab tu pong.

And then you get rid of your last gyur par. Got it? Pong.

Pong is present tense. It is working away at your gyur par. Got it?

So that's the lower Abhidharma Hinayana Abhidharma school, it says this. Now we go on. This is why I don't do this because it would take 20 years to finish this book.

But that's ok. De gyur tsum ni Parche Melam gang gyur kyi Rang gyur mo kyao kyi Pong cha rang tu tsum gang gyur pong wa che pa yin pe De gyur tsum ni How does that work exactly? How does the drain melt away the hair?

De gyur tsum ni, Parche Melam The direct perception of emptiness Gang gyur kyi As its power is stopping Gang gyur, gyur means in gang means stop As its power is stopping Rang gyur mo kyao kyi pong cha Rang gyur mo kyao kyi pong cha is an idiom that means its particular object to defeat its particular enemy its particular opponent. Mo kyao kyi pong cha means What's the mo kyao kyi pong cha of the first direct perception of emptiness? Yeah, those three negative thoughts.

So it means you pick your enemy I'll take that guy, like the two lions are coming towards each other in a war and you're like, he's the one I'm going to go after him. And that's the mo kyao kyi pong cha. Mo kyao means my personal the one I'm going to take care of.

So what's the mo kyao kyi pong cha of the final Parche Melam? The last shidu. The last obstacle termination.

Its mo kyao kyi pong cha Rang gyur tsum gang gyur pong Rang gyur tsum gang gyur pong Its obstacle is going, blinking out of existence even as it blinks out of existence. Even as the direct perception of emptiness ends. The final direct perception of emptiness ends.

The dreno the final obstacle termination ends. The hair. And then you click over into nandroma Freedom.

Freedom from there. Therefore, de lug la tong lam parche melam gyur tsum tong pa tobe sabun gyupa yin no This probably answers all our questions actually. Just by accident, I didn't plan this.

Really, I didn't plan this. De lug la So according to yinbe, therefore, according to their system. Whose system?

Lower Abhidharma. Hinayana Abhidharma. Because there's a Mahayana Abhidharma that we never talk about.

They're cool because they have the best presentation of the mental functions. If you ever want to study that, that's kind of cool. I believe it's by a Sangha.

Which makes sense because he's flirting between the he and his brother are sort of flirting between the two. Hinayana and Mahayana. De lug la tong lam parche melam gyur tsum During the time of the dreno gyur tsum tong pa the thing that the path of seeing eliminates sabun the seed for it, gyur exists.

It exists. So that might be significant in our discussion. Even as the dreno is working on the hair, the potential for the hair is still there.

That might be relevant to our discussion somehow. It might be relevant to someone who thought that there was still a shidu going on there pretty strongly in the last moment. That might be all the Sherlock Holmeses in the room contributing that might be a clue to our whole debate.

You wanted it. I'm giving it to you. But you could go on quite a while.

Let's go on some more. It's fun. bong tsu de ni mi te te But that way of eliminating obstacles is incorrect.

Why? ni mi kin kor chao et se When the kinkor of the sun rises What's a kinkor? It's Sanskrit.

Mandala. The old Sanskrit word mandala doesn't mean this. It means the disk of planets, the disk of the sun, the disk of the moon.

It means a disk. Mand came into Spanish as mundo came into English as mundane. It means a planet or a world.

ni mi kin kor chao et se When the disk of the sun rises in the morning rang du su at that moment sal ja, the thing that it banishes which is what? moonba darkness me There is no darkness. Don't just nod.

Are you sure this is okay? When the sun comes up there's nothing for it to banish. Because there's no darkness.

At the time that the sun has come up there's no darkness. So he says that disproves the whole system we just talked about. When the draino is there, there can't be any hair.

Or else it wouldn't be called draino. It doesn't deserve to be called draino. It's just a chemical until it gets rid of the hair.

Then you can say, god damn, the draino works. Then it's draino. Got it?

This is beautiful. This is almost like a book jimba class. We're getting into this question.

Is it an antidote after it got rid of the hair? Or is it an antidote because it gets rid of the hair? And if it's not an antidote until the hair is gone, then how do you know what to use?

Why don't you just pour I don't know, olive oil down this thing. Or grease from the stove. And then the guy's going to say, right on the green area.

And then we're going to say, ah, dole. Dole means what? Come on, Lord Buddha in the sutra said.

He's going to kill him with a sutra quotation. Lord Buddha's own word. And Lord Buddha said, nyi mey khyen gong cha rin tse, mun pey ney mey jing, mi mik so, shey chen pey yi jing.

Because when the sun comes up, when the mandala of the sun rises, mun pey ney mey, there is no staying of the darkness. And mi mik so, it vanishes. It vanishes or it has vanished?

In Tibetan, the verb is the same. The darkness is mi mik pa. How do you know mi mik pa?

Where do you know mi mik pa from? mik mey tse wey pey chen chen chen. Can't see it anymore.

It's invisible. It's gone. What's mik mey tse wey?

Invisible light. Why? It can't see any people.

There's no people. I love you, but you're not here. Near all ambang.

There's nothing near. Does that mean there's no people in the room? No, it just means that wisdom doesn't see any person in the room who's not coming from what I did to people in the past.

There's nobody in this room who didn't come from how I treated people in the past. So if I was to love you, I would be loving nobody who didn't come from myself. Anyway, let's not go there.

Shei sung pey chen. So he's defeated. You wanted it.

You got to finish it. Nyi pa nyi? What's nyi pa nyi?

Yeah, the second, which was what? Gangir gitsu was the first one. What's the second one?

Say, kengir gitsu. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It's not that the antidote and the thing it eliminates drop in power as they go.

It's that the antidote gets stronger and stronger as the thing it gets more subtle. And that's a beautiful concept in all of scripture. The antidote must get more powerful.

As the negative emotion gets more subtle, it takes a lot more powerful antidote to remove very subtle anger than it does to remove screaming anger. You know, like a knock on the door can stop screaming anger in New York, for example. That's just a gross outer thing.

But to remove the inner anger, you know, five minutes later, you're in front of everybody, you know. And to remove the seed, to remove the subtle, that takes a much more powerful antidote. So, let's see.

Kengir gitsu, kundu gilung la. Say, kundu. Gilung la.

I think this is mumma kundu, Abhidharma Samuccaya, which I believe is by Master Sangha. And it's a Mahayana version of Abhidharma. And it's not studied in the monastery.

Except for a weird debate. Okay. De lula nyambo pache me langke shinpe.

According to that system, as the antidote, which is the uninterrupted path or the direct perception of emptiness, is starting, as it's coming up out of the ground, you know, while it's in this kind of a place. Kengir... De lula nyambo pache me langke shinpe.

Where was I? Yeah. As the direct perception of emptiness is starting, rang gi pang ja rang du sum gang shinpe pong e che.

As it's starting, then the obstacle is shrinking. As it's growing, the obstacle is shrinking. That's Kengir gitsu.

So not like this, but rather like this. Like this. Nyi me e che.

Nyambo pache me langke shinpa tang. The final moment of the growth of the direct perception of emptiness. The final moment of the...

Yeah. It's starting, right? A starting has a starting and a staying and a stopping, right?

You heard that in Bok Chenpa. You heard that in Vok Chamba, right? They say, class is starting now.

And that's one minute. But there's a starting of the starting, there's a state of the starting, and there's the end of the starting. By the end of the starting, by the end of the starting, Nyenpo Parchen Me Hang, Kye Simpa Dang, the final, the point at which you can say, now he's got the direct perception in his mind.

Now he's got the direct perception. That point, and Phang Chak Gak Sim, the end of the negative emotion that is functioning to the hair. Jun Nyang, those are simultaneous.

Those are simultaneous. By the time the aspirin stops the headache, the aspirin becoming real aspirin and stopping the headache are simultaneous. Okay?

That's what we said, right? You can't call it aspirin until it knocks out the headache. You can't call it a headache remedy until it stops the headache, right?

Okay? Got it? Okay.

Gak Sim La Jun Nyang Me Che Te Ta Yang Kuntu Le Then he quotes Kuntu. He quotes the son of Nyang. By the way, here he says, Therefore, Kuntuky Lug La, in the higher Abhidharma school, in the time that there is a true direct perception of emptiness, the seed for what it's abandoning is no longer there.

Cannot be there. Cannot be there. Rang Lug Kuntuky Je Sun Rang Te Our own school follows that of the higher Abhidharma school.

Nyang Pe Pong Nyang Pong Chul And then he goes on to talk about examples. Whose Rang Lug? I don't know.

It's some kind of Uma Rang Lug. Okay? Got it?

Got it? I'll throw you out a possibility. Is there a Pong Sumba here?

Is there a Pong Sumba? There's actually two Pong Sumbas here. What are they?

There's two Pong Sumba. Pong Sumba means third option.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I'd put it this way. It could be true that neither of these systems is correct. That's one Pong Sumba.

But what's the other Pong Sumba? Consider the possibility that they're both correct. No, that goes in the category of that neither one is correct.

So either one is correct, the other is correct, both are correct, or neither is correct. Think about whether it's possible to say that they're both correct at the same time. You can't call Drano Drano until the hair is gone.

And the Drano blinks out of existence when the hair drifts. That's a Bob Jimbo's question. That's what she spends hours thinking of stuff on.

I just teach her to text us. Just kidding. Somebody's going to come back.

I like this. The argument's not over. We got a new Kochigma, but he's just as stupid as the first one.

Here we go. Who worked on this? Is it Cheeky?

Okay. We're going to pick on people now. Should I move it off?

Do you still need it? You don't still need it. What did you call this thing?

And we're on Cheeky, right? Is it you? Okay.

Okay. Thanks for putting it in. It's easier.

Okay. Suppose someone claims, and then we'll... They give you teachings in the English language, and then someone believes that you have the lyricality.

Yeah. Even though... Okay.

This is where we critique the translations. And I'll never say you did anything right. I'll just say, more things you can learn, okay?

That's just the way I am. As Lama Kristi knows. Yökyang.

So, yö has two big meanings in Tibetan. One is... it exists.

But the other is... to possess. Okay?

Like, ngala dep yö means... ngala komputer yö. Say, ngala...

[Speaker 2]
komputer...

[Speaker 1]
yö. I have a computer. Let's do it again.

Ngala... komputer... yö.

Means, on me, there exists a computer. You see what I mean? Ngala...

komputer... yö. Okay?

So, yö, whenever you bump into a yö, consider the possibility that it might sound smoother if you translate it as have, or possess. So, even though... this person...

possesses... the wish... I like to capitalize wish for no good reason.

For enlightenment. Of the greater way. In their...

in their mind stream. The objects... this is really...

this is really cool. The objects of this state of mind... do not...

do not appear to it... to exist truly. In truth, it's okay.

Alright? See? We said, every state of mind of a person who is not in the direct perception of emptiness, and who is not a Buddha, is...

And infected. Now, he's saying... yeah, but look, this guy is so far.

He's like seconds away from Buddha. He's seconds away from enlightenment. His bodhicitta...

objects don't... his state... his bodhicitta...

his love... objects don't appear self-existently to his love. Alright?

Got it? They don't appear self-existently to his love. It's not a bad argument.

It's a pretty cool argument. Okay. Here we go.

What's another? Uno, dos, tres. Yang, Da, Kun, So, Den, Bai, Be careful.

Yabba... Yabba, because he said something we're not gonna come back with, Sure it is. We're gonna come back with, Are you telling me?

Okay? And that's what? Yabba, Da.

Okay, one more time. Yang, Da, Kun, So, Den, Bai, Yabba, Da. Nam, Su, Dan, Ne, Su, Tum-pa-dru-pe, kun-zo-den-pa-yu-be-ku.

This is a really good place to practice high-tone naas, OK? Say, nang. Nang.

Then say, nang. Nang. Nang.

Nang. Nang. Nang.

Nang. This nang means to appear. What's nang mean?

Inside. What's the Buddhist word for Buddhist? Nang-pa.

Nang-pa. Inside. Nang-pa.

OK? But if you say nang-pa, it means they appear. If you say nang-pa, it means a Buddhist.

OK? So if you don't get your nang and nang straight, no Tibetan can understand what you're trying to say. OK?

It's like mixing up chas and jas, which is what Germans tend to do. You know, I found a ji-chi. And you're like, excuse me?

Yeah. Ji-chi. Or every culture, every language has their individualities.

Thai can't distinguish between ra and la. OK? So I have, what was it?

Lice. I have lice. But no, there was a, oh, we had three, three companies were selling us rubies.

Real gems, rare gems, and rare gems. But the receptionist was Thai. So it was always, Lil is here.

You know, Lil Gems is here. I said, is that real, or rare, or rare?

[Speaker 2]
And you know what I mean?

[Speaker 1]
So it doesn't need to cut the pit of bread. So anyway, ours and else. It's the same with nang and nang.

You see, they're laughing at you. The Tibetans are laughing at us. Why?

I can't believe it. They can't hear the difference between nang and nang. OK?

You see what I mean? Like, they're sitting there right now, the monster, talking about you guys. Those Americans were here last year.

And I asked them if he was a nangmon. He says, yeah, I'm a nangmon. You know?

He said he was shiny. But I don't know. All right?

OK, so nang. Nang. Anything in front of or on top of an n makes it high tone, easily.

Here's one that has something in front of it. So it's nang. Say nang.

Nang. Nang. Didn't say nang.

Nang. Nang. Nang.

Nang. Do you have nang? Do you have nang right now?

Do you have barley? Do you have any barley on you? See?

Nang, nang, you know? Say nang, you know? You got any barley, man?

OK? But you're going to go and say nang, you know? Say nang, you know?

Nang, you know? Are you here? Okay, alright.

So I'll test you. Nei yu na? Say yes or no.

Nei yu na? No. Chocolate yu na?

Chocolate yu na? Girls can't catch, sorry. Yup, say yup.

Yeah, I'm here, I'm here. Anyway, this gets into a really cool question. And that would take many classes and it would be very beautiful.

Have you ever had a correct perception?

[Speaker 2]
A crap perception?

[Speaker 1]
Have you ever had a crap perception?

[Speaker 2]
Incorrect.

[Speaker 1]
Have you ever had a crap perception? No. Outside direct perception?

No. If you're not a Buddhist? No.

No, say no, okay. Is this a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup paper that's empty now? It is.

Is that a correct statement? Yes. No.

[Speaker 2]
Well, it's a balance.

[Speaker 1]
I can't say it's a balance anymore? I'm asking whether it's correct, I didn't ask whether it's a balance. Is it correct that this is a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup paper that's now empty?

[Speaker 2]
In ordinary perception, yes, it's correct. What? In ordinary perception, yes, it's correct.

[Speaker 1]
Michael's had a good answer. Michael said, listen, don't let this candy distract you. Too much.

By the way, this is all soap from France, I think, right? None of the Reese's. Oh, okay.

And Michael said, deceptively, right? To an ordinary perception. To an ordinary perception.

It's correct. Listen. Listen.

This is important. No, listen. Listen.

Highest Madhyamika school says there's no such thing as a relatively correct perception. Don't give me this relatively correct. We got out of three retreat.

There was these two people here who are not here anymore. I don't know why. But they kept saying, before they said anything, they said, relatively speaking.

And then they thought that whatever they said would be all right. Relatively speaking, we think you should do this. Because they wanted to make it clear that they knew it didn't truly exist.

The highest school of Madhyamika, you've got to listen. Highest school of Madhyamika says the distinction between relatively correct and relatively incorrect is wrong. OK?

Got it? That's very powerful. That's really powerful.

Don't go giving me this relatively speaking. It's Lisa's peanut butter cup paper. You have to say no.

There is no. No, it's not. It's not.

No, in real Madhyamika, they reject the idea of, here's the first four syllables here. What? Say yanda.

Kunzo. Yanda. Kunzo.

Why? You are still misperceiving it when I ask the question. Even as you identify it as a racist peanut butter cup paper which has recently been evacuated, you're still seeing it wrong.

You're still not seeing a racist peanut butter cup paper. You're still not. So you can't say it is or isn't.

Because you're still seeing it. You're not seeing what you think you're seeing. I don't have that in my head what you think you're seeing.

So you can't talk about whether relatively speaking or not relatively. It doesn't matter. There isn't any.

There is no racist peanut butter cup recently evacuated paper in my head.

[Speaker 2]
That sounds like a very nihilistic thing.

[Speaker 1]
And that's not nihilistic. OK.

[Speaker 2]
Well, it sounds like it.

[Speaker 1]
Of course it does.

[Speaker 2]
All right.

[Speaker 1]
So what are we saying to this guy? What did we just say? Wake up.

That's what the candy is supposed to do. Are you telling me there's a good deceptive reality? There's a right deceptive reality?

Are you telling me there's a right deceptive reality? OK. All right.

Are you saying that there's a... Wait. How do you want to say it?

Correct? Deceptive reality? What's he going to say?

We said... What's he going to say? Come on.

What do you always say? Yeah. Chin chin.

But say it with feeling. Chin chin. Well, I didn't say that.

Chin chin. Say it with some heart. Chin chin.

What are you talking about? I didn't say that. OK.

Don't say that. Chin chin. Chin chin.

It's like, well, who said that? I didn't say that. OK.

You got to say it with some conviction. Somebody says something in the debate ground. Oh, so you believe in a correct deceptive reality?

Chin chin. I didn't say that. Who said that?

OK. It's like somebody accuses you of stealing the last peanut butter cup. Chin chin.

And you say, me? He has to say, me? OK.

Chin chin. Uh, yak. Nang-tsul dang ne-tsul tung-ba.

Ngang-tsul dang ne-tsul tung-ba. Say, I told you. Say, nang-tsul.

Nang-tsul.

[Speaker 2]
Dong.

[Speaker 1]
Dong. Nang-tsul.

[Speaker 2]
Ne-tsul.

[Speaker 1]
Tung-ba. Tung-ba. Extremely important.

Extremely important. Somebody says, what does duality mean in Buddhism? Here it is.

What does duality mean in Buddhism? Here it is. You should say,  duh-to, duh-to.

We should learn this. This should be like a mantra. Chumba.

[Speaker 2]
Chumba. Okay. Chumba.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, chumba means they match. Nang chung means the way the thing is looking. And ne chung means the way it really is.

Okay, get it? The way it looks to me, and the way it really is, are chumba. Okay, they match.

Oh, oh, are you saying that there's no existence? Gee, why do you say that? Because there does exist, I'm gonna say an example of deceptive reality, where the way that thing appears, the way that something appears, and the way it really is, matches the way it really is.

How's that? Okay? Are you telling me that there's a good version of deceptive reality?

Deceptive reality means what? Say it in Tibetan. Say, nang chung.

Nang chung. Dang. Dang.

Ne chung. Ne chung. Miten.

Miten. You know, somebody comes up and asks you, you know, this kunzop denpa thing is so complicated. What does it mean, kunzop denpa?

What does deceptive reality mean? What does it mean to say you've lived in deceptive reality your whole life? You've never had a single millisecond out of deceptive reality, never.

What does that mean? Your student's gonna ask you. Then you're gonna say, oh, it means nang chung.

Say it, nang chung. Nang chung. Dang.

Dang. Ne chung. Ne chung.

Miten. Miten. The way it looks, and the way it really is, they don't match.

That's a lie. That's deception. So we call it deceptive reality.

So why do Buddhists think that, you know, as you're wandering around the world, it's all wrong? What's wrong? It's deceptive.

What do you mean when you say deceptive? It's deceiving you. Why is it deceiving me?

Because the way it looks to you, and the way it really is, don't match. Okay, say don't match. Miten.

We'll do it one more time. Nang chung. Nang chung.

Ne chung. Ne chung. Miten.

Miten. Okay, the way it looks to you like I have in my hand a paper which is coming from my side to your eyes. But in truth, a subtle seed inside your consciousness has projected a tiny picture of a paper inside your own mind.

Okay, there is no paper out here. I'm not holding up a paper. This whole room is going on inside your head.

Subtle seeds from how you have treated other people are going off in your head. Does that mean there's no more outer reality? Does that mean I'm just alone in the universe?

No. My seeds are being projected as an outside world. Therefore there is an outside universe.

Because it is happening in my head. And I'm not alone in the universe. Everything I project is real.

Everyone around me is real. Say that there could be a person outside of me who's not being projected from me. Now that would be lonely.

Because that's impossible. There's no such thing. Because all events and people and things in the world are created by how I treat other people.

That's so cool. That could save the world. It's so cool, that could save the world.

All right. Did he say there's existence, a certain example of deceptive reality where the way that something appears and the way it really is match? Did he say that?

Did the other guys ever say that? Yeah, he did. What did he say?

In the last paragraph, you're like a tangent span. It's like one paragraph long. I can't believe it.

Eat some more of these things. By the way, Christie and I are totally broke, but we may not be by the end of the week. I'm not asking for money, but if anybody wants to volunteer to pay for healthy drinks and food next Monday, please talk to Anatole, okay?

And is it like a hundred bucks? He's doing 50. He found a green apple supplier for 50 cents a pound instead of 250.

But really, if someone has a, or two or three people want to chip in, like we may be, we think we'll be in a position in a week or two to do it, but I'd really rather give you something healthy so you don't cark out in Bogdjimba. Okay. Did he ever say that there does exist an object in deceptive reality which appears the way it really is?

Did he ever say that? Did he ever say that? Right.

To what? To what state of mind? Right.

Of whose bodhichitta? But a special guy in the darkness. Yeah, a guy at the last moment of, just before enlightenment, he says, he's stuck on this thing.

A bodhisattva's got to have what? He's stuck on that, okay? He's really stuck on that.

The guy's a bodhisattva, he's about to become a Buddha. He's got to have ultimate love in his heart at that moment. Well, if he does, then he has an infected state of mind in his heart.

Oh, no, no, his bodhichitta is different. People don't appear to his bodhichitta as self-existent. He's trying to get out of it, right?

So then why do we come back then? Are you telling me that there's a deceptive reality object that could appear the way it really is? Got it?

Just nod, okay? I mean, you must, it's okay, right? Everybody's there, right?

Like, you're just tricking me, right? You're just tricking me, right? I'll say it one more time.

Are you telling me there's a deceptive reality object which could appear the way it really is? And the guy says, yes. No, he says, why do you say that?

I say, because you said this guy who's just about to become enlightened has a special kind of bodhichitta where the beings he loves appear to him in a way which is not wrong. He said that, he said that. He started out, he's a new kachig, it's for kachig, right?

New kachig said that. We were wondering about the karma of people who always get cast as the bad guy in movies. No, we were thinking about it, you know?

No, it's like, it's a scary thought, you know? Like, if you get to be Voldemort in all the Harry Potter movies, how does that affect your mind, you know? Your future, I don't know.

So anyway, this is Chuky's kachig. Okay. Okay.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Well, I'll prove it to you. Look.

Recent documents. How about Chuky Lab, number 11?

[Speaker 2]
Just because you know.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, okay, I know. Then he says, we say, we say there's an example of deceptive reality which is appearing in the same way that it really is, matches, okay? We say, you're a hater.

And he says, no, that's not correct. There is no deceptive reality object that appears in the same way that it really is. And we say, oh, wait, wait, wait, we gotta go.

Because this is a chance to get a different kind of tau.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, right?

[Speaker 1]
Got it? That was a hint. Okay, one, two, three.

[Speaker 2]
There's tau.

[Speaker 1]
Good. Den dru tu mi na we kun so den pa. Yeah.

He says, there doesn't exist an example of blah, blah, blah. And he says, there does, too. Too, too?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Because there exists an example of deceptive reality where something doesn't, now we gotta go back and get the language that we used just now. Doesn't appear to exist in tradition. Right, something doesn't appear to exist in truth.

Got it? Got it? Okay?

Because he said that. Yeah. This is tricky.

This is tricky. She said, why did you add example? Very, very subtle.

This is kun so den pa. This is kun so den pa. But in English, you wouldn't say it is deceptive reality.

It's one kind of deceptive reality. It's one example of deceptive reality. In Tibetan, very important, if you wanna make your translations comprehensible by a normal person, the word for deceptive reality in general, the whole world, and the word for the tissue box as an example of deceptive reality is the same.

That's very difficult. Okay? So if you go around saying, the tissue box, it is deceptive reality, it's a little bit uncomfortable for your reader.

They'll get confused. You have to say, this is one thing in deceptive reality, or this is one example of deceptive reality. But the word in Tibetan is kun so den pa.

De kun so den pa. This is kun so den pa. But it means, this is one example of deceptive reality.

Very subtle translation thing, and it makes your translations much better. Yeah?

[Speaker 2]
On the previous paragraph?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Is it because there are dozens of them, or because there's dozens of them?

[Speaker 1]
You tell me. Very difficult to translate this text. Because when you give a reason, it may not be something you believe is true.

It may only be a reason that he believes is true. So even in that gangyur gitsun that we were sweating about all week, it could be that we believe that's okay. It could be that historically, in the past one time, he said that wasn't okay.

And that's the tricky thing, okay? You can't assume, even that the final reason given by our side is accepted by our side. They may just be quoting an old reason that he gave that was wrong.

Very subtle, very interesting, really interesting. That makes translating these texts really interesting. In a debate, you can use as a reason to defeat another person a wrong idea that he has.

And you don't believe a single word of it, okay? And this is the case. Because there doesn't exist an example of deceptive reality where the way it looks and the way it is match.

Do we believe that could exist? No. But does it work as a reason?

Yes. Why? Because what he said implies that.

Very subtle, very cool. It makes translating these things great fun. Okay.

What's he gonna say to Yebe Echen? There does exist an example of deceptive reality that doesn't appear to you the wrong way. He's gonna say, of course he's gonna say tamadu.

I didn't, who would do that? Tamadu. Tamadu.

And then we say, egbeltein. Der. Der ta.

Of course there does, because. Here we go. Chang sen gyun pa we gyu ki pe chen sen kye ye pa ni.

Kang shik de la rang yul den dru du mi na we. Kang shik is a split reason. Learn that.

Learn it, okay? Learn it. Kang shik is a split reason.

And in English, how do we say it? I don't like him because A, he's got bad breath. B, just goddamn ugly.

Okay, so it's an A and B. It's a kang shik. I don't like him because he's got bad breath.

Kang shik. He's ugly. Okay, so when you're translating, you might even wanna put a one and a two.

You know, like that. But it's a split reason. Split reasons are a little tricky.

If one, half of a split reason is wrong, is the whole reason wrong?

[Speaker 2]
Because he's got bad breath and he's ugly to his mother.

[Speaker 1]
Right. So does that mean I don't like him? Anyway, okay.

Uh, de ka? What's de, how am I gonna translate de ka? De does du?

De does du? Because, you can do it this way. Because, first of all, the wish for the enlightenment of the greater way does, or, we'll say does exist, but I just, the whole thing I gave you was a lecture about possession.

Anyway, does exist in the mind stream. Abey Changsim? Chakrasimha?

Or Vaisakha? Gita? At the end of the stream, I think he's named.

And secondly, secondly, the objects which appear to this wish do not appear to it as being, don't appear to it to be, what? To exist in truth. Got it?

Got it? Got it. Let's say it in plain English.

We said there is an example of deceptive reality where something doesn't appear to exist truly. Okay, he said, that's not true. We say, ha ha.

Aren't you the one who said that a person in the last moment before enlightenment had active love in their hearts, right? And weren't you the one who said that the objects which appear to that active love don't appear to be self-existent to that active love? Because they got some kind of special kind of active love.

Right, okay? Just nod. Where did we get into this?

Why are we talking about the wish for enlightenment in the mind of a person at the last moment before the next time? Why are we even talking about that? Why are we talking about that?

[Speaker 2]
So that's the subliminal ground. And you're not one of the top 10.

[Speaker 1]
You're close. There's one intermediate step. Because according to him, a bodhisattva who just saw emptiness for the first time has love in their heart.

Got it? Why? Because if they didn't, then how could they outshine anybody?

Got it? That's where this whole argument's coming from. Go backwards.

Does a guy just before he gets enlightened have love in his heart, active love? What do you say?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Why did we talk about it? Why are we talking about that?

Well, we were arguing about that. We were arguing about someone who just saw emptiness for the first time, a bodhisattva. Do they have love in their heart?

Yeah. Oh. If they don't have love in their heart, what's the problem?

How can they outshine anybody? If they do have love in their heart, what's the problem? That love is seeing things as self-existent.

And they're in the middle of the direct perception of emptiness. How could that be? Got it?

This is a problem. It's a real problem. Does the guy suspend from bodhisattva for 20 minutes?

Is he not a bodhisattva for 20 minutes, and then he comes out of direct perception of emptiness, and then he is a bodhisattva again? And how could he become a bodhisattva again? Because there wasn't anything to cause it, because during the 20 minutes, it was all gone.

Like that. Does he just go into bodhisattva limbo for 20 minutes? Is he not a bodhisattva for 20 minutes?

And then is he not on the path of seeing of the greater way? Is he on the path of seeing the lower way then? This is a problem.

It's a problem.

[Speaker 2]
Buddhists don't have bodhisattva.

[Speaker 1]
He can't maintain both at the same time. He can't maintain both. That's impossible.

For a non-Buddha.

[Speaker 2]
Nambarsara.

[Speaker 1]
Nambarsara?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that was the term he used.

[Speaker 1]
Dawning on the third one, is it?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
OK. So when it dawns, is it there or not? When the sun comes out, is the darkness still there?

Nambarsara. Same girl. Anyway.

[Speaker 2]
OK, let's go on.

[Speaker 1]
I got like, how much more time? I got like 15 more minutes, I think. I've actually started at 6.30, McNally. Oh, this is cool. Actually, Michael mentioned this last week. Let's read it together.

One, two, three. Shenyang, Nientuki, Gonglang, Dorje, Dabu, Tengyin, Zenla, Nepe, Kamsa, The, Pakchenyang, Daedang, Pakmeyang, De, Ni, Ga, Jikja, Du, Mun, Du, Je, Pa, Ta, OK? Are you telling me Shenyang means, moreover, not only that, OK, not only that.

Let's see how cheeky Chen is. Gosh, where is that Shenyang? All right, we'll just say, and are you telling me that a listener, that's good, no, a person, a person who is staying, who is residing in the, what's Dorje?

Dorje, Dabu, Tengyin, Zen. Say Dorje, Dabu, Tengyin, Zen. This is a special kind of samadhi called the diamond-like samadhi.

So are you telling me that a person is residing in the diamond-like concentration during the path of what? Abituation? For a listener.

OK, that's the Chit-chen, OK? Are you telling me that a person is really, really, OK? There's a special guy.

He's in the, I don't know, I guess you could say final moments of the path of abituation. What is the path of abituation?

[Speaker 2]
Problem. Path of meditation.

[Speaker 1]
Why do they call it abituation?

[Speaker 2]
Because you're getting used to what you saw.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you're getting used to what you saw when you saw emptiness directly, which was at the path of seeing. How long does the path of seeing last? 20 years.

Say 20 years. Wait for the path of. How long does the path of abituation last?

[Speaker 2]
In terms of all of the objects.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and typically it could be seven lifetimes. Or 60. If the person's practicing Tantra, maybe it would be shorter.

All right. I don't know if I should finish it. Are you telling me that a person?

No, no, no, it's fine. Mundu chepa. You said realize, OK?

Mundu chepa is different from mun sum du chepa. Say mun sum du chepa. And mundu chepa.

Say mun sum du topa. And mundu chepa. So sometimes they get confused.

Sometimes translators get them confused. Mun sum du topa means what? To perceive directly.

And it has the word sum in it. This is the trick. If you want to learn translation, this is the trick.

When you see the sum, it's got to be direct perception. Mun sum du topa. OK?

Mun sum du topa. But when there's no sum and it just says mundu chepa, it means to bring about a state of mind. Or to achieve a state of mind.

It means to manifest a state of mind. OK? So are you telling me that this one was a person listening?

Brings about. Or achieves, you could say. OK?

Achieves. She said simultaneously. Simultaneously, that's very good.

Achieves. Simultaneously. Instead of two, you can sometimes say both.

OK? Both. Say ni.

Ni. Say nika. Nika.

Ni. Ni. Nika.

[Speaker 2]
Nika.

[Speaker 1]
Say ni. Ni. Nipa.

Nipa. Nipo. Nika.

Nika. One more time. Ni.

Ni. Nipa. Nipa.

Nipo. Nipo. Nika.

[Speaker 2]
Nika.

[Speaker 1]
Ni means two. Nipa means the second. Nipo means the both of them.

The two. And nika means always both. Got it?

So ni is what? Two. Nipa?

Second. Second. Nipo?

The two of them. Nika?

[Speaker 2]
Both.

[Speaker 1]
Both. OK. Both nirvana hakche with remainder and nirvana without.

So I saw she did everything right. Yeah. Are you telling me that a person is residing in nirvana without a remainder is going to be a person that achieves simultaneously both nirvana without remainder with nirvana with remainder and nirvana without remainder?

In the Abhidharma system, which comes first?

[Speaker 2]
Which comes first? The Abhidharma system? Yeah.

Nirvana without? With remainder. Nirvana with remainder.

[Speaker 1]
OK. In the Abhidharma? Yeah.

The Abhidharma system. In the Abhidharma system, they have this weird idea. Say, vimrit.

Vimrit. Ginchenpa.

[Speaker 2]
Ginchenpa.

[Speaker 1]
Vimrit. Vimrit. Ginchenpa.

[Speaker 2]
Ginchenpa.

[Speaker 1]
Pembo means your particulate matter. Physical stuff made up of atoms. It's the meaning of pembo.

It's a very important distinction because pembo does exist in the Buddha field and suk doesn't, like that. Sorry. The reverse.

Anyway. You see forms in the Buddha field, but they don't exist of atoms like that. OK?

Anyway. Vimrit means body and mind. Ginchenpa means the flow stops.

The flow of them stops. OK? And in the Abhidharma system, this is what an arhat is.

This is what nirvana is. What? The flow of your, the continuation of your body and mind just cut.

Just stop. You're arhat. No, in the Abhidharma system.

In the Abhidharma. They don't even say die. They just say, it's just gone.

And then you're in nirvana. So this whole idea, Buddhism came to the West first through Hinayana countries. And then this idea of nirvana became prevalent in the West.

And you will come up against it sometimes. People, you'll say, what's nirvana? And people say, oh, you just blink out.

You're just, that's it. You're in the realm of this. Or maybe isn't.

Like that. Not really. You know, that was the Hinayana idea.

That was the old Abhidharma idea. You just stop. You just stop.

Your mind and body stop. Pyamrit Gyanchenpa means your mind and body just stop. Discontinue.

So if you got rid of your mental afflictions before that, what would it be? Nirvana where you still had a body and mind. And then once you reach the end, Gyanchenpa, what would you be?

Nirvana without anything left over. So then in the Abhidharma schools, in the lower schools, there came to be this distinction. Nirvana, while you still have a body and mind, left over.

And then nirvana where you no longer have a body and mind. And then the higher schools are saying, well, who's the Arhat then if you don't have a body and mind? But they don't get into that.

In the Mahayana school of what? First you achieve nirvana without remainder. And then you achieve nirvana with remainder.

So what does that mean? Because it must not mean the same thing. It must not mean the same thing.

So here he says, oh, I guess a Hilayana person who's just becoming an Arhat, they must have achieved nirvana with remainder and without remainder at the same moment. Then what's he going to say? Come on.

You're not that tired. Whenever I say, what's he going to say? You just say, chi-chi.

You got to go like that with your shoulders. Chi-chi. Like Geshe Michael doing his asanas.

The teachers are always polite. They look around the whole room and they say, OK, get your shoulders down. I'm like, they don't want to see Geshe Michael because it's embarrassing.

We were in Hong Kong and this poor lady, she said it like 50 times, and there were only six students in the class. OK, let's do this one. We can finish this debate, I think.

Yeah. One, two, three. Say Tukhap.

Tukhap. Tukhap. Tuk means tukpa.

It means Tibetan suit. If you're a high lama and your attendant is really lazy, you'll get tukpa every night for eight years. And then they'll say, the attendant's not there, but the lama will say, Tukpa, you know?

Heart means leftover. You call it? It's already leftover tukpa.

Tukpa, you know? It's already leftover tukpa from yesterday. All right.

Let me go back. Because there does exist in the mind stream of a person who has just attained the state of an enigma starter, of the listener chart, both nirvana with enigma. We said, are you telling me that a person is just about to achieve nirvana, arhat, enigma starter.

Are you saying that they have both nirvanas in them at the same time? And the guy says, why do you say that? And then we come back with, because the arhat of the next moment has both of those nirvanas in them.

Because the arhat has them. All right? Is it true that an arhat has both nirvana with and without remainder?

Do they achieve both at the same moment? Yeah. Can they have both in them at the same time?

I mean, aren't they contradictory? Can you have, don't have Risa's peanut butter cup leftover and do have Risa's peanut butter cup leftover with the same geshe at the same time? No.

Is it possible? I'll say it again. Can you have no Risa's peanut butter cup leftover and does have Risa's peanut butter cup leftover at the same time with the same geshe?

You can't. You see, they're opposites. They can't exist in one object at the same moment.

So we said, are you saying that? And then he would say, come on, come on. Teacher.

Teacher. Come on, Peter. Teacher.

Yeah, yeah. Teacher. Who said that?

Who said that? Why are you saying that? It does too.

Because there does exist in this person's mindscape Nirvana with remainder. Okay? We say, they do have Nirvana with remainder.

So they must have both. Okay? I mean, the implication is that it's easy to say he has without remainder.

But to say he has it with remainder is a problem. Everyone would agree he has Nirvana without remainder. But now we say, he must have both because he has Nirvana with remainder at the same time.

And then he's going to say, you got it. Teacher. All right.

Say, I'm sorry, Tamadu. Okay, Tamadu. And then we say, it does too.

Because... And here's the punchline, okay? And then you get to go to Bhaktivinoda.

It does too because there does exist in this person's mindscape a Nirvana which is still involved with something appearing to exist in truth. Okay? All right?

That just taught you of something very important. Why? How did I prove he had Nirvana with remainder in the high school?

How did I prove it? I said, because he's still got... Something still appearing to him is self-existent.

He's still mixed up with the appearance of things as self-existent. That's what the... So therefore, what do you learn from that?

It's not like an English textbook. It's not like a Western textbook. Duh!

You want to know the definition of Nirvana with remainder is a Nirvana which is still involved with something appearing to exist in truth. Memorize that and be able to do it on the exam tomorrow. Okay?

They don't teach it that way in the monastery. See, this guy must believe that he has a Nirvana where something is still at work. Why?

He believes there's a Nirvana where something is still appearing, something is still remaining. And you just learned the definition of what it is to have Nirvana with remainder in the high school. Okay?

So it doesn't mean anymore that you still have your body and mind. Okay? It just means that you're still thinking something exists truly.

And that's Nirvana with remainder. Alright? Oh, it's understood.

You're right. Yeah. We'll talk about it.

Let's get to the punchline. Between all of these, it's understood that he said tamadhi. And in the monastic text, but you don't keep repeating it.

You know? We say, because of blah blah blah. And he says, I didn't agree with that.

But he never gets to say, I didn't agree with that. Because the next thing that comes is, we say, because blah blah blah blah. So he must have said, I don't agree with that.

And so we don't write it. It's just a waste of space. Okay?

Alright. Because there does exist in this person's mind an appearance. This is my appearance of something existing in truth.

Okay? A person who just achieved arhatship in the lower tracks, they still think, there's still something appearing to them to be existing truly. What's he going to say?

Tamadru. Who would say that? That's not Nirvana.

Right? It's what you guys have been saying. Come on, that's not Nirvana.

Yes, it is. Why? Here's the punchline.

Because there does exist in the mind stream of a person who is at the final end of this stream the appearance of something existing in truth.

[Speaker 2]
Sorry?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, he said he had bodhicitta.

[Speaker 2]
Huh? Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? So according to you, this whole system of Nirvana is all screwy because you're still hanging on. Here's the last sentence of the class.

Just sit up straight. Because it all goes back to you said, a person who's just about to get in line still has bodhicitta in the mind. Okay?

Alright? Is that fine? I mean, you should be a little concerned to have to wait a week to find out why a person who's just about to get enlightened doesn't have love in their heart.

I mean, that should be disturbing to you. Okay? No?

You're two days from the candy? I don't know. Yeah?

No, it doesn't count. We're talking about love. We're talking about love.

Oh, no. It's not, uh... Sem kye pa ni, shen dun chen, yan na dzokpa chen chen, right?

It's not that. It's not that. It is, it is.

I mean, it is. Sorry. Okay.

Alright? So, to be continued next week. We want to find out...

I mean, what the heck is the wrong loop here? What's the wrong loop? Yeah, what...

Well, what's the... What's the Qigong guy going to say? You know, what's Khenrup Tenpa Daigye going to say?

When we ask him what? Are you telling us? I mean, they don't give a chance for the guy to come back and say something to Khenrup Tenpa Daigye.

Which should be why? Well, yeah. I guess a guy who's about to drop into total enlightenment after billions and billions of countless lifetimes and...

You know, he doesn't have love in his heart. No, no, no. That's...

That's... We're waiting, right? We're waiting for the guy to come back with that, right?

Alright? Got it? Apparently, the wrong loop is what?

He doesn't have love. Doesn't he? Which is unthinkable.

Okay? Because that love is the desire to... achieve enlightenment for all being, right?

If he doesn't have that, then why the heck is he going to achieve enlightenment in the next millisecond? Alright? Okay.

Good night. This is a fun class. This is a really fun class.

And if you're new, and if it all sounds like hair splitting, it's not. You're going to get to that final moment just before enlightenment and you're going to wonder, well, what am I supposed to do right now? No, no.

So... No. Yeah.

It's very important. No. No.

It's like... It's like learning where the tire jack is in your car. You know?

Like, we didn't know, right? We didn't know where the car jack was in our car. It took us like an hour to find the jack.

And we got a flat tire. So don't wait until you get a flat tire. I mean, it's not meaningless.

This puts a seed in your mind that will ripen in the final moments before enlightenment. You need this. You need to hear this.

Okay? It's very, very important. It's really important.

And to have someone who cares about it and cares to write a book about it 600 years, 500 years ago, that's amazing. And to be in the class when this is being discussed. People don't sit on the bus in New York and talk about this, right?

I mean, not the last time I was there. So... It's good.

It's good to learn. It's all going to have an effect on your heart when you get close to the final moments. Okay?

So it's good to talk about it. All right. Good night.

[Speaker 2]
Oh. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. So we have a few more of these classes. Somebody offered to Anatole to pay for that.

I want to give nice... It costs money to buy stuff which is healthy for you. It doesn't cost anything to buy stuff which is poison for you.

So... If you're in a position to, I'll offer Anatole some money. And they also need two people to help sit there in the afternoon on a Monday and grind up the juices.

Okay? So... And it's really important for your practice to eat well, to eat, to drink, that kind of stuff is very good for your practice.

So we're just trying to get you in the habit. So, if you can, given the mula, if you can, or you can do both, volunteer to come up to the Lama house that afternoon and help squeeze out all the juice. Okay?

All right. Thanks.