Карма, пустота и преображение: буддийский взгляд на евхаристию (2010, Тусон), занятие 1

[Говорящий 1]
Tonight, I'm very grateful to be invited to talk about the Eucharist. As many of you know, I grew up in Phoenix and went to Auschwitz Episcopal Church. A lot of people have come to me with their horror stories about church.

For me, it was just wonderful. For me, church was something really, really beautiful. We had really amazing priests at the church.

We had a beautiful church, and the garden in the church was very beautiful. And many happy times there. And I think for me, the best time was the Eucharist time, which in the Catholic Church is called Mass, right?

And in the Episcopal Church, sometimes they call it Communion. But this was my favorite time. And I got to be an altar boy, so I was always hanging out with the priests.

You know, you get to go in these little rooms and you feel really special. We had really beautiful, really fantastic priests. One of them was, he had been a trapper in Alaska.

Really rough, big guy. And one day he got stoned into his cabin, right? And it was way over the roof of the cabin.

And he was many miles from anywhere, and he was going to die in the cabin. So he got down on his knees, you know, this trapper. And he prayed, and he said, God, if you save me, I'll become a Episcopal priest.

So, some guy came and dug him up. And he had to, you know, honor his word. So he became a priest, and he was a father body.

He was a very beautiful man. So I remember one morning, we had 7.30 service, we had 9 o'clock, 7.30, 9.15, and 11. 11 was for the lazy people, and they didn't get much Eucharist, because they were lazy.

And then 9.15, you got it twice a month, Eucharist, you know. And then the 7.30 people always got Eucharist, because they got up so early, and they were working harder. So, you know, I was the altar boy, and we got there a little early, me and my brother.

And we were waiting in the side room, and you do this big thing back there with the Eucharist, you know, the father pulls out the Holy One from somewhere, and he has these special bowls and special chalices, and then they pull out this, in my church it was little waitress, and they were really special, you know. Like, you didn't even want to touch one, you know, it was like so holy. Just to be around them was a blessing.

And I remember one morning, we were doing the 7.30 service, and we got everything ready, and then you make this grand entrance, right? The father has all these black cassock on, and different colors of skulls for different holidays, and, you know, and it was really a big deal when we made our entrance. And then I had this stupid red bow, something with the rose blossoms on, but it was okay, because I really liked being on the floor.

And the Father is such an honor. So we came out right here, and we made our big entrance, you know, and then we looked out, and there wasn't anybody there. There wasn't a single person there, just us.

And we started talking to a thousand people. You know, and we started talking to a thousand people, you know. And we looked out at the sea of no faces.

And then me and my brother are like this, you know, because, hey, we did the whole thing, you know. You know, maybe you catch the cartoons on TV or something. We were really honored, you know.

And the priest, Father of Honor, he turns to us and says, you know, you know, Jesus said we want to do our final together. So we're going to do the mass. So, you know, he said we're going to go ahead and we're going to do it, you know.

And we did a whole thing, every single word, everything perfect. And me and my brother were the only communicators, you know. And it was so beautiful.

It was just so beautiful to get, to be granted the body of Dr. Kress, you know. And then he didn't care that nobody was there. He just thought it was important to do, you know.

So it's really, really beautiful. So I'll never forget that. So I thought to tell you what I was thinking about when I got it, when I was a teenager, okay.

And I thought maybe some of you could tell me what I was thinking. And then we could go from there, okay. Because, you know, what's happening when you take this little piece of bread, which didn't taste very good.

And it was too dry. It stuck in your mouth. It stuck on the top of your mouth.

And what I thought was really holy, and I tried to keep it like half a day, stuck to the top of my mouth. And then I'd just suck it from time to time, you know. I didn't eat it, you know, right away.

I would just keep it there. Just stuck to the top of my mouth. And then take the holy one, right.

And I didn't have any clear idea what was going on, you see. I'm just saying what I felt, you know. I didn't particularly think, oh, I'm eating Jesus's body.

I didn't think that. Even though they told us over and over, when you're getting it, you know. And then I took the wine, and it wasn't so much for me, Jesus's blood.

I'm just saying honestly what it was for me. It was just something very holy. And it put me into a very, very deep place.

And I felt like I was in God's hand or something. And it was just like that. That's all, you know.

It wasn't anything else. It was that, you know. And we went to take communion.

In my church, you had to go through, what's it called? Catechism. Confirmation class.

You had to take a class. And then they explained to you what was going on. You couldn't take the, I mean little kids came up and got a little snuck along.

But you had to go through training. You had to know what you were doing. Bishop Hart came and gave us catechism.

And you know, that was a big step in your life. But from all that training, what I actually felt in my heart when it was coming down, was just like to be in the presence of Jesus. Like that was like a way to be in the presence of Jesus.

And it felt very, very beautiful. So I wanted to ask, I'll just ask four or five people who have courage. And those that don't have courage, I want to hear from you first.

And you don't have to stand up or anything. You can just yell out, and maybe nobody will see you, okay? Well maybe we should have some order.

I don't know. But what did you feel when you got the bread and the wine? What happened?

What did you think? Loud. Loud.

[Говорящий 2]
For me, the Episcopal Church changed many years ago to welcome infants to the communion. That the moment you were baptized, you were welcomed to communion. Because it became the philosophy as the Church grew in wisdom, I would think, that as we eat food for our body, that the Eucharist is the food for our soul.

So that one doesn't have to take a class. You don't take a class to learn to eat, or to know how to chew the carrot, or you just do it. And it became the philosophy that it's that way with Eucharist.

And that's the way it's always felt for me. That my soul is hungering for a closer relationship to God. And that that Holy Meal becomes the food for my soul.

[Говорящий 1]
Yeah.

[Говорящий 2]
Derek, are you here?

[Говорящий 1]
Yeah, so I used to think of it as a gas station. Like every week, you go back to the gas station and you get filled up. And then you can last another week.

And it's not like normal food you have to eat two or three times a day. It's like a communion, a mass. I felt like you needed it once a week.

And then I felt like I was going to the gas station for my spirit, and getting refilled so I could get through the week. Something like that. Anybody else want to chat?

Go. Talk loud. The way I feel about it is that that is a moment in time where there's presence.

God is present. And that presence is not only there for me to experience, but somehow God sees me.

[Говорящий 2]
And that's it.

[Говорящий 1]
Okay, so God's presence. I think so, yeah. That's awesome.

Somehow when you come up and you kneel down and the thing touches your tongue or your lips, you feel like then you must be in God's presence. Anybody else? That's fine.

But you have to run over here. Talk loud. Wait, wait, wait.

Growing up in the Methodist church, we just believed that the bread and the wine were two symbols. So I didn't really give it, I didn't, I just gave them my intentions that something was supposed to happen. Say it again.

I didn't get it.

[Говорящий 2]
Yeah, the bread and wine, they're just two symbols.

[Говорящий 1]
Yeah. And then what did you say? About intentions?

[Говорящий 2]
Well, I would taste the wine and look for something to happen.

[Говорящий 1]
Okay. Anything else? It tasted sweet.

Maybe one more. Anybody else? I do too.

You have to talk loud. I actually grew up Jewish, so my experience of communion was bread and wine, God invited me to go with a friend and didn't know I wasn't supposed to go.

[Говорящий 2]
And the thing that was confusing to me was that in the Jewish tradition there wasn't any thing between me and God. There was a very personal relationship. And so at the time, my experience of it was like it was actually something not abridged, but something that I didn't understand that actually got between me and then a very personal relationship.

So it's very interesting. I'm really excited to hear this different view of it.

[Говорящий 1]
I think one more. My teacher.

[Говорящий 2]
For me, it was the symbol of transformation. That something could be one thing and become another thing. And then so for me, that meant I could be flawed or hurt and then healed.

So that the transformation was possible for me too.

[Говорящий 1]
So let's stop there and talk about that. Because Laura was talking about what do you call it? Is it transfiguration?

Is it just transfiguration? I don't know. But at some point in the ceremony, the wine or the grape juice which the church would grow up in is said to become the blood of Christ.

And then the bread is said to be the blood of Christ. Change into. Actually change into during the ceremony.

So I was talking at a church last night in Phoenix. St. Peter's. It's really beautiful and very nice people.

I was telling them about my first experience. You find out more about your religion when you go elsewhere. And then you look back at your religion.

So I went to. I went and had a chance to study in the Himalayas. And there were lamas there.

The Dalai Lama was close by. And there were great lamas there. And I was like 19 or 20 or something like that.

And I went to study at the Dalai Lama's place. And they were just opening up to foreigners. And it was difficult because not many people spoke English.

And then I remember sitting in a small stone room with this lama. And we were talking. And I would keep asking questions about Buddhism.

And then I said. He said, well let me ask you a question. And I said, okay.

And he said, I heard there's this guy named Yishu. They call him Yishu. And you know that there's this religion that Yishu started.

And I heard some weird things about it. And can you explain it to me? Can you just answer some questions?

So I said, okay. And he said, well first of all who's Yishu? I said, well Yishu is called Jesus.

And he founded this religion called Christianity. Because they're from Tibet. They just got out of Tibet.

They've never met a Christian. Which is unusual in the world, right? And they came out.

And I said, well you know he was a great teacher. He teaches a lot of the same things that you teach about compassion and wisdom. And he was a really great teacher.

And then they said, well he got murdered, right? And I said, yeah. He was killed.

He was executed by the religious authorities at this time. And then they said, well what's this cross thing anyway? Why do you use a cross?

And I said, well actually that's the thing he was killed on. He was nailed to that cross. And so he took the cross as a symbol of our religion.

Then he looks at me and he says, that's like using an electric chair for your seatbelt. This is the worst moment in your religion's history. The most painful moment.

In the founder's life. And the hardest moment. The moment of greatest pain.

And you take it as your symbol. We take a wheel. Us Buddhists, we have a wheel.

What's the wheel mean? He says, it's teaching. That the teaching goes from generation to generation like a wheel.

And the Buddha turns the wheel and then it's turned by each generation. So that's sort of a happy, positive symbol. But you guys, this cross thing, why did he use a cross?

And then I said, we believe on the cross Jesus died and that he made sort of a deal, a covenant, right? We got sort of a deal that came down. And he said his death, voluntary death on the cross as a divine being, his willingness to die on the cross would be in exchange for all the bad deeds done by all of humanity forever.

Like one person's death would suffice. One divine person's death would suffice to clean the bad deeds of all later, all generations in time. If they believed in him.

So I said, we don't see the cross as a bad thing. We see it as a good thing. A deal was made on that day.

And an exchange was made. And we were kind of happy about the exchange, you know. We thought it was a good thing.

So we took it as our symbol. Then they said, but the weirdest thing we heard about your church, about your religion, they're not, Tibetans won't speak to you frankly for a long time. You know, when you become their friend, like if you show yourself to be a good person for like a year, then they'll ask you these questions.

Otherwise, they're just polite all the time. And they don't say anything, you know, at all that might offend you. But after you get to know them for like a year, they start grilling you, you know.

So he was like, but the weirdest thing I heard, I said, go ahead, you can be frank. He said, this thing about eating his body, drinking his blood, I mean, this is your father, your religion, and you're like chewing on his fingers and sucking on his blood. This is weird, you know.

This is strange, you know. And I said, well, it's not exactly like that. He said, you know, we take a symbol of his body and his blood, you know, the bread and the wine, you know.

So he said, oh, then it's not the body and blood. I said, well, you know, something happens when you're up in the ceremony and it becomes the body and blood. At least he's like, they're debaters, right?

Buddhists are debaters. So he's like, oh, so you do eat the body and you do drink the blood. And you're a founder of your religion, you know.

It's so catabolistic, you know. They're like, they were really shocked, you know. And then I, I spent like months trying to explain to them what was going on during the Eucharist, you know.

And it was hard to explain to someone who'd never heard of a Christian what's going on in the Eucharist. That was hard. So they said, well, how did it start?

How did all this stuff start? I said, well, there was, you know, the night before he died, he had a dinner with all his students, his disciples. And they all ate together, and he knew he was going to die, and he knew it was the last day.

So he called all of them together and they had a dinner together. And then the lama asked me, well, you know, what were the disciples doing? If they knew he was in trouble or he might be killed the next day, why weren't they doing anything?

What were they talking about at the last supper? And I said, well, there was sort of an argument going on about who would be remembered as the greatest disciple later on. And they're like, are you kidding me?

The head of the religion is about to be murdered, and the disciples are like sneaking him off to another country or something, and they're like arguing about who's going to be remembered as the greatest, you know? And I said, well, it wasn't exactly like that, Jesus, then Jesus said, he sat down and he said, lege fege, right? Not to show off, I studied some Biblical Greek a while ago.

So lege fege means take, eat, okay? Lege, fege. If you care, lege comes from gra, it's all from Sanskrit.

Eucharist is from Sanskrit, okay? You, you is the Greek for good, which came from esu in Sanskrit, which is short for su, which means good, like sugata or sugata, or suka, okay? And then, karas, karas comes from her, her dialect.

What's her dialect?

[Говорящий 2]
Heart.

[Говорящий 1]
Heart. So it means, the word eucharist means good heart. It means the good heart.

You, you, karas. And it comes from India. The words come from India, okay?

And, what the word eucharist means is I give thanks. It came to mean I give thanks. And then, the first thing Jesus did at the dinner, you know, he got up and said, I'd appreciate it if everybody stopped wandering.

like, we're going to have a special ceremony, you know? And he said, lege, fege, he took a, he took a breath, he said, te, fege comes from Sanskrit, bhaga, okay? The F in Greek comes from, well, the PH in Greek comes from BH in Sanskrit.

The E comes from an A. The G comes from a G. It's bhaga, like Bhagavan.

It's a direct derivative of the word for Buddha, okay? Bhaga means take your share or bite something, okay? So, lege, fege is just a corrupt Sanskrit for take, E.

And Jesus said, take, E. And I don't know, the way I was brought up, this is my body, which is given for you for the forgiveness of sins. Do this as often as you shall.

Do this as often as you shall. Do this in remembrance of people. So, basically, what Jesus is saying, the way I learned it, you know, I don't know if it's precise, but the way I learned it was at the Last Supper, Jesus is offering bread.

He breaks bread, he says, Eucharisto. He says, let us give thanks, you know? And then he says, this is my body, you know?

And then, which is given for you, you know? And E, lege, fege, take and eat it. And then he says, do this as often as you shall.

E, bread. Every time you take bread, then think of me, okay? In the future, later on, when you are taking bread, then think of me, you know?

Just remember me, you know? And then he says the same thing with the wine. He says, you know, take, drink, this is my blood which is given for you and for many for their forgiveness of sins.

Do this as often as you shall. Drink it in remembrance of me, right? So, he's saying, now take the wine and drink it to remember me, okay?

To remember me, alright? So, and you have to realize one thing, wine in those days, why were they drinking wine? Because the water was not healthy.

The water was not drinkable. Okay? I mean, water in olden times was not drinkable.

When I first went to my monastery, when I was first ordained, they were all refugees. They were all living in tents. And I said, on Thursday, they brought me a glass of water and it was brown.

It was like a dark brown like the pews, you know? And I said, well, you know, frankly, I mean, in all due respect, I don't think I can drink that. And they looked at me and they said, we don't have any choice.

You know, that's the only water here. That's the only water within 50 miles. You have to drink it.

You don't have a choice. You know, it will make you sick. It will make you sick, but we don't have any other water.

And you drink it. In those days, you drank it, you know? So, so it's not that they're like drinking wine like the way we drink wine.

They're drinking, they're drinking wine because that's what the main beverage at a meal, at a meal. So it'd be like drinking water. I mean, it'd be like drinking water.

And then, what I, what I feel Jesus was saying was that every time you eat anything and every time you drink water or any liquid, any time, that you remember me. Okay? You stop and you think of your teacher.

You know? You, you stop and think of me. Every time you, every time you eat, put anything in your mouth, every time you ever take a drink of anything, pause and think of me.

You know? Think of, think of me. But then the hard part is, that's okay, right?

We call dharma nirsha. In Tibetan, it's called dharma nirsha. Dharma nirsha means an artificial reminder throughout the day of your teacher's kindness.

Something like that. You know, this is rebe, the rebe, the rabbi's kindness, right? Which is a big deal in those days.

The reason the disciples were always around him is because he was customary not to leave the rabbi's side for his whole life. So, so, by taking the bread and drinking the wine, they would have, every time they had water, they would be thinking of their rabbi, of their teacher, right? They would think of their teacher.

But the thing, the thing I was hoping to speak about, and what really nobody mentions, I think, I mean, well, partly, is the transformation thing, right? Like, what happens? Does it really change?

You know? Does the wine that we're going to be honored to have tonight, due to Reverend McBride coming, he's going to serve us communion, you know, does the wine actually change just before it reaches your lips? Or when the priest performs a ceremony, does the wine change into a divine being's blood?

And does the little wafer, piece of bread, change into that being's body? And what happens to you when you take it? You see?

If it did change, then what would happen to you if you took it? So let's talk about those two things, okay? Can it change into something else?

And then, secondly, if it was somebody's blood body of a divine being, what would happen to you? What would it do to you if you took it, right? So, yeah.

Okay. Are you going to talk about can it change? The two questions you just asked.

Yeah, I don't want to talk about the first question. First question. Yeah.

Can it change?

[Говорящий 2]
It doesn't change.

[Говорящий 1]
The claim isn't that the physical appearance changes. The claim is that through Aquinas, where it ran through, that the substance changes and it appears in the way it physically appears. And in that way, just as Christ's blood is, he didn't really finish what happens after the cross, but the resurrection is the atonement, not just the atonement, but also the entrance of the Holy Spirit into a person's life for transformation, for actually changing.

So the, in the Episcopal tradition, it carries this through, that the change in the substance of the bread and blood, the bread and wine, is actually changing to carry the grace which Christ imparts to us. He imparts to us through the cross the gift of salvation, salvation for our soul to live a better life. And this is just like that, the continuing feeding of our soul, of our spirit with the bond, with a physical remembrance that really affects us emotionally.

Alright, so back to my first question. I mean, yeah, I would say, I mean, nobody can say that physical form changes, it doesn't change, right? But, you know, last night in Phoenix, the priest gave, she asked me, could you explain these two ideas about Buddhism that we heard?

One is called emptiness. One is called karma. You know, we heard these two ideas and can you explain what they mean?

So, you know, I was getting into the emptiness of Neil Young, okay? And I said, well, the best example of emptiness I can think of is Neil Young, you know, because when I hear Neil Young, I think it's the most fantastic thing I ever heard. You know, I mean pre-1970, Neil Young.

Okay? And then, I remember when I took my Neil Young album, which I refused to let out of my hand the whole way to go to college on the East Coast. I played it there for my roommate and I said, you know, you're lucky, you're four years with me now.

And I'll have Neil Young every night singing to you, you know? And he says, well, I never heard this guy, you know, can you put it on? And I put on Neil Young and he said, he had this look on his face, you know, and then I said, at the end of Calderona Sound, I said, so how did you like it?

And he says, you see, he sounds like a screaming eunuch. And then we had this big fight the whole four years and then I was allowed to play the album unless he was out of the room. And so, that's a good example of emptiness, okay?

Emptiness means that Neil Young can sound good or Neil Young can sound bad. Sound can be Sounding good is not inside of Neil Young. And sounding bad is not inside of Neil Young.

Sounding good is not coming from Neil Young. And sounding bad is not coming from Neil Young. If sounding good was coming from Neil Young, the way he played, then everyone would enjoy Neil Young.

See? And if sounding bad was coming from Neil Young, I wouldn't have bought his album. Okay?

Like that. So what we say is that sounding good doesn't belong to Neil Young and sounding good doesn't belong to Neil Young either. So where is it coming from?

If I enjoy Neil Young and somebody else hates Neil Young, where is that coming from? If it's not coming from Neil Young, because if it was coming from Neil Young, everyone would feel the same about Neil Young in the way that we all experience the purest as the same kind of good. You see?

So what? Where is it coming from? What's the other choice?

Ah! Barb said it's coming from us, okay? So it's coming from us.

So if you want to know what emptiness means, it means that nothing is the way it is by itself. The way it is is coming from us. If you like Neil Young, it's coming from you.

If you don't like Neil Young, it's coming from you. Okay? So can I just decide to like, what's that guy's name?

Idiot Smith. Elliot Smith. Can I just decide that I would like Elliot Smith, you know.

Can I just say, oh, Geshe Michael's in the church here tonight, and he said everything is coming from me. So, therefore, I will just decide to like this guy that I can't stand, you know. And then you play it, and you decide I'm going to like it.

And it doesn't work, you know. So does that mean it's not coming from us? Does that mean it's not coming from us?

[Говорящий 2]
It is there.

[Говорящий 1]
Say it again. We're stuck with it. Okay?

Yeah, we're stuck with it. Okay? Like the way you hear it is coming from you, but you don't seem to have a choice.

You see what I mean? You can't control it in the present moment. Okay, got it?

You can't say I'm going to do it. You can't say I'm going to You can't say I'm going to do it. You can't say I'm going to do it.

You can't say I'm going to do it. You can't say I'm going to do it. You can't say I'm You can't say I'm going to do it.

You say I'm going to You can't say I'm do it. can't say I'm going to do it. You can't say I'm going to You can't say I'm going to You have control anymore, because that seed was planted 6 months ago.

You can't stop the seed and you can't decide how the song is going to sound, okay? Got it? Things are empty.

Neil Young doesn't sound good and Neil Young doesn't sound bad. Neil Young is a bunch of sounds. Just a bunch of random sounds.

Whether you hear it good or bad depends on how kind you've been to others. If you've spoken kindly to others, you'll hear Neil Young as sounding good. If you've spoken unkindly to others, you'll hear something bad, okay?

What's that got to do with you, Ruth?

[Говорящий 2]
Are you serious?

[Говорящий 1]
It is what you make of it. It's what you bring to it. Yeah, it's what your seeds make of it, okay?

Because we said, I can't make it, you see? So, we say the bread and the wine, we say they are empty in the sense that they are blank like a blank screen, okay? They could be normal wheat, you know?

They could just be normal bread. And they could be normal wine. They could be that, okay?

But they could also be the body and blood of a divine being, okay? Got it? Who makes the bitter one?

Who makes Neil Young good? It's me, okay? Got it?

And we would say the Eucharist, the bread and the wine are blank, okay? They're not a divine thing, and they're not something that was bought at Safeway this afternoon, okay? Right?

They're not normal, and they're not divine by themselves. They're just stuff. It's just stuff.

It's a round, brown thing and a red thing, okay? Then, how you experience it, what it becomes for you, is coming from you, okay? It could be divine.

It could be something divine. It could be transformed. Or it could be just regular bread, regular wine, okay?

How do you transform it then? It's more fun, can we agree that it's more fun to drink divine beans flushed by a Vietnamese that just have a hamburger? I mean, can we say that we would prefer, as you said, to have the blessing and the grace imparted to us from a divine substance, right?

So we would rather that the bread and the wine were divine than just something that you picked up at Safeway this afternoon. By the way, both are there. Both are always there.

It couldn't go either way. The Safeway is there. And Jesus is there.

And which way it goes depends on what? As you sow, so shall you reap. So if you are kind to others, if you take care of others as you would yourself, if you take care of other people as well as you would yourself, that doesn't sit in your mind that you see this substance as divine.

It's someone sitting next to you who hasn't taken care of other people. How do they see it? They get really disappointed.

They see the plastic pita wrapper from Safeway and they say, oh my God, they didn't even make this in a Christian factory or anything. You should make this up at Safeway tomorrow. They see the wrapper and they feel like disappointed somehow.

I remember when I was, you know, a kid. You get to go in the priest's room, you know, and they're just unwrapping some bread from Safeway. And you're like, wait a minute, I thought this came from heaven or something, you know.

So both breads are there, right? The bread is there. Regular old pita from Safeway is there.

And Jesus' body is there. And which one comes to you? Which way you experience it comes from what?

Comes from what? Yeah, how you take care of other people, okay? How you take care of other people.

So can we say that the substance can be transformed? Yeah. Neil Young, the screaming unit, can become the best rock star in the world, you know.

Didn't you see the Canadian-American playoff of last Sunday, where the Canadians cheated and beat the Americans? So, you know, they're not like, who are they hosting in the crowd? It's Neil Young, you know.

So, the substance can go either way. If you want the substance to be divine, you have to be kind to others. That charges the substance.

That changes the substance, okay? You have to be good to others. And ideally, although it's not possible for us, right?

As good as you would be for yourself, okay? So we, hang on, come afterwards. Ideally, we can say that the substance can be transformed.

It can be. I'm just saying, I was charged with giving a Buddhist perspective on the substance can be transformed. It can become the body of Christ and the blood of Christ.

And it can have the power and the blessing and the grace, when you partake of it, of Christ entering you, okay? But what about the second part? And then I'll shut up.

They don't have a Eucharist, okay? What's the second part of it? Take me, this is my body that's given for you, and for others, for the forgiveness of sins, okay?

So now, this is a big question. If you, now, now we get into debate, okay? Now we get into debate.

You know, a Buddhist would have to say that everything in your life, every experience, every person you ever meet, your income, your health, the condition of your spouse or your partner or your children or your mother or any other person you ever met in your life is a direct reflection of how you're treating other people, karma, okay? There's no experience that you have in your whole life, good or bad, animate or inanimate, living or dead, right? There's no thought in your mind, even, that doesn't come from how you treat other people.

All things in your life come directly from how much kindness you've shown other people. So if you don't show kindness to others, you will not be happy. It's not possible.

Because every person you ever meet, every building you ever sit in, every thought that passes through your mind is a direct result of how much kindness you show other people. That's karma. That's the law of karma, okay?

But there's a second law of karma. It can only be collected by an individual. It cannot be transferred.

That's a second law of karma. I cannot be kind for you. You say, I mean, I can't go and help illegal immigrants who need water.

If I go and serve water to an illegal immigrant on the border, right? If I sit there and wait for them and then serve them, right? I put a certain seed in my mind through that action.

A certain seed of karma is planted in my soul through that action. And I cannot transfer it to another person. It's not possible.

You see what I mean? I can't give you my good deeds. You have to do your own good deeds.

The Buddhist proof for that is interesting, okay? Like, there has to be a proof, right? In Buddhism, you need a proof.

The proof of that, that no one can give you karma or take your karma, right? No one can give you a seed, and no one can take a seed from you, is proved by the fact that we still suffer. It's proved by the fact that we still suffer.

We're still getting old. We still go through sickness. Life is a long series of disappointments.

For the few people who collect some money and have a nice family and find a good wife and have nice children and get a good job and don't get laid off, for the very few like that, then what happens? They die. They lose it all.

So it's all like this useless exercise, you see? We are suffering. We are in an impossible situation.

We're in an airplane that must crash. Life is sitting in an airplane which must crash, and you must die, right? So it's useless.

It's a failure. If it were possible to grant someone else your goodness, right? Or if it were possible to take their pain away from them, I, Michael Roach, wouldn't be suffering today.

I wouldn't have had doubts and problems today. I wouldn't have been tired in the afternoon. I wouldn't have slipped on Christine's garage and fall down today, you know?

It wouldn't have happened, Michael. If it was possible to take away my negativities, any divine being would have taken it before. I wouldn't be here.

I wouldn't be in a place like this. I wouldn't be getting old, you know? I wouldn't be suffering.

I wouldn't have fallen down today. If it were possible for someone to look at me and say, Oh, Geshe Michael, you're going to fall down today. That's a seed that you got from hurting someone when you were a kid.

Here, I'll take it out of your mind for you, you know? I see that you're going to fall down today. I take the seed out.

So a Buddhist philosopher says, it's not possible to give another person the seed of your kindness, or to transfer their suffering to you. Not possible. Because karma is collected by the individual.

You don't get in trouble if I step on above. I get in trouble. It wouldn't be fair, right?

It wouldn't be fair to say, Oh, I killed a cow today, and Andrea Lemon has to... I'm going to give you the result. Okay?

Like, you should suffer in six months. Okay? Like, you can't give away stuff like that.

It sticks with you. What you do good, what you do bad, sticks with you. What's that got to do with the Eucharist?

Why is Keshe Michael bringing this up about the Eucharist? This is my body which is given for you and for others for? The forgiveness of sins?

Are you going to take away my seeds? You know, if I partake of this wine tonight, and if I partake of this bread tonight, then can you guarantee me that I'll never slip again on Christine Walsh's cardboard? Can you take away my...

Can you forgive my sins? Is it possible? This is the second question.

We had two questions, right? First was, can you transform this stuff? Yes.

It can become a divine being's body and blood. And therefore, ultimately worthy to partake of. Anybody would want to partake of it.

Or you're a fool. What's the second one? Is it possible then for the forgiveness, for you and for others for the forgiveness of sins?

That was the word, right? For you and for others for the forgiveness of sins. Is it possible that by partaking of this substance tonight, you know, that something happens to you and your sins are forgiven?

Is it possible? If I drink this wine and I eat this bread, which has been changed into the body of Christ, can you guarantee to me that my sins have been cleaned and I won't have any suffering tomorrow? Will it happen?

Huh? Can you get that good news? Yeah.

I think you have a good answer. Okay. Hang on one second.

But it's coming. Neil Young, sounding good is not in the song. Got it?

Sounding bad is not in the song. Being divine flesh is not in the bread. Being bread is not in the bread.

Okay? If you experience it as bread tonight, it's because you weren't very nice to other people. If you experience it as a divine being's flesh, that's because you've been kind to other people.

Now, that's the emptiness of the bread, and that's the emptiness of the wine, and that's the emptiness of Neil Young. Got it? What about the emptiness of forgiving your sins?

What about that? Can that substance have the power to remove your sins? And if it does, who put it there?

Yeah, you. Okay? It would be you.

I think the thing, I'm struggling with what you're saying. Ah, don't, don't, don't. I'm just kidding.

I gotta keep on the straight and thorough. Don't listen to him. And I'll listen.

What was I thinking? Yeah. Okay.

Sounding good is not inside Neil Young's song. Being Jesus's flesh is not inside the bread. Being Jesus's blood is not inside the body.

If you experience it as Jesus's blood, if you experience it as Jesus's flesh, it's because you've been kind to others. Got it? Right?

Just say right. Agree with me. Now, whether or not it has the potency to clean your oven, your bad deeds kept in the Bible, right?

Bad deed. Whether or not it's capable, whether or not it has the potency to remove your sins, where would that come from? According to Buddhism.

Like everything else is coming from me. How? If I'm good to others.

[Говорящий 2]
I've forgiven them.

[Говорящий 1]
Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah. Huh?

I'm saying, if I have been forgiving of others, if I forgive others their trespasses, how does it go? You need to forgive those. And again, right.

Please forgive me as I forgive those who trespass against us. Which is why we haven't been forgiven. Because we don't forgive.

That's right. So she said a beautiful thing. I mean, that's the whole thing.

That's the whole thing. Whether the blood and the body has the power to forgive you your sins, right? Depends on what?

[Говорящий 2]
If you forgive.

[Говорящий 1]
How well do you forgive others? You know? How well do you forgive others?

There's an interesting thing in the Bible. Jesus is a rapaport. Jesus is a real rapaport.

You know? He doesn't debate whether war is good or bad. You know?

He's not talking about that. He's saying, if someone slugs you on the left side of your face, what? Ask them if they want to slug you on the right side of your face.

You blew up the World Trade Center. Would you like to build the Empire State Building? That's what he's saying.

He's not talking, should you invade Iran, or just Iraq, or should you just wake up? You know? He's not suggesting that.

If someone steals your sweater, what does he say? Give your coat too. Hey, are you the guy who stole my sweater?

It looks a lot like my sweater that I left in the church the other night. And they say, yeah, I swiped it. They said, you mean, you didn't even just think it was left there?

You swiped it? He said, yeah, I swiped it. Well, would you like my pants too?

[Говорящий 2]
You know?

[Говорящий 1]
I mean, Jesus is, Jesus is super radical. Jesus is super radical. So on the subject of forgiveness, what's he saying?

Forgive everything. Forgive everything. And anything.

You know, we have, we forgive on two levels. One are forgivable things and one are unforgivable things. And, you know, you have done a forgivable thing to me.

You know, like you insulted my cheesecake the other day. And I forgive you. But you broke up with me last month and that's unforgivable.

I mean, that's going too far. You know, there's certain things I can forgive. There's certain other things I can't forgive.

As long as you hesitate in your capacity for forgiveness, a Buddhist viewpoint of the Eucharist is that it cannot work on you. You can eat the blood, you can bite the body, and nothing's going to happen. You'll go home and be as sad tomorrow as you were today.

You see? Nothing will change. Because your sins will not be forgiven.

Because you have not forgiven others. And I would assert, you know, that that's exactly what Jesus said. In the Lord's Prayer.

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. You know? Equal, what do you call it?

Right. You know? I accept from God the covenant.

I accept this deal. You will only do whatever kindness to me that I do to others. You know, what did Jesus say?

You know, you didn't visit me in prison. You know? Right?

He said, whatever. Yeah. So God is in a way, God is saying, Jesus is saying, my ability to take away your sins, my ability to forgive you, is limited to the amount you forgive others.

That's a Buddhist view. That's a Radical viewpoint, okay? I would assert that's what Jesus said.

I would assert that's what Jesus said. So, final question. Then we'll actually have some wine and bread or body of water.

Is there any, like, what do you call it? Exemptions. You know?

I mean, come on. I can't forgive everybody. Personally, I can't do it.

People hurt me, and I keep it for a long time. There's a separate word in Tibetan called tsikpa, which means slow burning. I have tsikpa.

If someone hurts me, I've got tsikpa. I don't say anything, I still get up and give nice talks in a very reasonable class, and everything, I can sit there and pretend to meditate, everything's fine. Inside I have tsikpa.

You know, how could they do this to me? How could they do this to me? I would never forgive them.

Like that, right? I have it. I don't know if we are capable of forgiving to the amount that we need to be forgiving.

You see, I mean, I don't think it's a good deal. I don't think it's a good deal. If Jesus said, you're only going to get as many sins taken away from you as you forgive other people for God's love they do you, I'm in trouble.

You know? Is there any easy way? You know?

Is there any... Can you sort of just get everything cancelled? Can you go to somebody and say, look, I can't forgive as well as you want us to forgive, I can't do it.

I'm just not capable of it. And I assert that we're not. At least I'm not.

I'm just not capable enough to be forgiving as you want me to be for the blood and body to work tonight. Is there a catch-22? Can you get out of this problem?

We say, believe. We say, believe. That's the last thing I'll say tonight.

How many last things? How many last things? We, a Buddhist philosopher, in strict accordance with the scriptures of Buddhism, could say, if you believe enough, right, that this being is divine, if you take them as your true teacher, right, for us it would be our root lama, it would be our heart lama.

For a Christian it would be Jesus, right? If you accept that as your heart teacher, the karma of God is enough to transform this dog. And the karma of God is enough to wipe out his sins.

You see? If you totally believe in them, if you really believe they are divine, if you believe they are like an angel, right? We would say angel, a lama.

If you believe enough, the karma of God, the effect on your mind would be to remove your bad karma, forgive your sins. Just believing in your heart lama, or Jesus. In your case, the Christian case, it's Jesus.

We would say heart lama. Enough devotion, enough faith in the power of your heart lama is enough to make the brain and mind work, okay? And you don't have to be a Christian to take it, okay?

You can partake it. If your faith is enough, if your belief is enough, as you partake it, yeah, it could clean your, it could clean away all your bad seeds in your mind. Then what happens?

The next day your life is beautiful, more beautiful than it was before, okay? It doesn't all happen in one day, okay? Buddhism says, you don't get all your negative, you don't get all your sins forgiven in one sip of wine, but you have to keep coming back and you have to keep building your faith.

But if you have enough belief in your heart teacher, in Jesus, and you take something that you see as part of them, it's enough. That's enough. That's all you need, okay?

That's all.