Разница между нирваной и сансарой: ориентиры для осмысленной жизни (1998, Брисбен), занятие 1

[Говорящий 1]
Tonight I'd like to talk about two very famous words in Buddhism. One is called nirvana, and one is called samsara. In Tibetan language, which is what I was trained in, nirvana is called nyangde, and samsara is called korwa.

And I'd like to ask you to say those words, okay? Say nya, de, nyang, de, okay? And the other one is korwa.

Korwa. Korwa. Alright, and supposedly everything a Buddhist is supposed to do is to get to nirvana and get out of samsara, okay?

So nirvana is supposed to be where you're trying to go, and samsara is supposed to be what you're trying to get away from. You know, different religions have different goals. In Buddhism, supposedly, trying to get to nirvana, trying to get out of samsara.

And that's the goal of all Buddhist meditation, that's the goal of all Buddhist practice, that's the reason to become a monk, everything else, those are the goals. Mm, and I thought it'd be nice to make a list of what they're supposed to be like, you know what I mean? I think a lot of Westerners practice Buddhism, or get attracted to Buddhism, and they go study Buddhism, and they don't really have it clear in their mind what they're supposed to be running away from, and what they're supposed to be going to, you know what I mean?

So I thought it'd be interesting to put a list of qualities, like, what are the best things about nirvana, and what are the worst things about samsara? Because, you know, before you have this long lecture about how to get to nirvana, and how to escape from samsara, you have to decide what they are, you know what I mean? Like, what is it that you don't want, and what is it that you do want?

So, I'm open, okay? Give me a quality of samsara. Anybody, huh?

She said ego, okay? I'll put...I'll put ego here. And we have to check that, okay?

Say again? Okay. Confusion, okay.

Which side? Don't be shy, don't be shy. Craving.

Anything else? Yeah? Disappointment, for sure.

Please, go ahead. Okay. Okay, we'll try that.

And we'll put a materialism over here. Yeah? Go ahead.

Okay. Coming back again. Say again?

Chaos, on the samsara side. We need some more nirvana signs. Freedom.

Oui. Say again? Love.

Wisdom. Peace, yeah. How about two more from the nirvana side?

Say again? Okay. Somebody else said one?

Got bliss. Emptiness. Oh, that's a hard one, okay.

Okay, we'll talk about them one by one, alright? Because we have to decide ... I find that sometimes ...

I mean, I myself, when I became a Buddhist, which was like almost 30 years ago, I wasn't really clear in my mind what I was trying to escape, and what I don't have to escape. And we'll go through ... And then there's this thing I call Dharma Rumors, you know?

Meaning, people talk about, do you have to escape from this thing? But maybe you don't have to escape from this thing. So you have to put in a lot of extra work to escape from something that you don't have to escape from.

So it's very good from the beginning to decide, I have to escape from this, or I don't have to escape from this. And we'll go through these one by one. I think ego is a good example, okay?

The example of ego. Ego. And this is one of those difficult Dharma ideas, you know?

Like you hear that you have to escape from the self, or that no self exists, or no me exists, or no Atman exists. And you have to talk about that first, I think. Does a Buddha have an ego?

First of all, Buddha's reached Nirvana, okay? So, does a Buddha have an ego? Does the Buddha have a self?

Yeah, okay? So I think you can make that distinction. Like a Buddha looks in the mirror and says, that's my self, you know what I mean?

And we distinguish in Buddhism between the self that does exist, and the self that does not exist. So Buddhism has this idea of some self that exists, and Buddhism has this idea of some self that doesn't exist. But you can't deny that there is somebody standing up here, and talking, and there is somebody sitting in your chair, and you're not crazy, you know?

And you don't have to escape from that, you see? There is a self which does exist, okay? And even when you get to Buddhahood, you have a sense of yourself, and they will call you by a certain gautama or something, they'll give you a name, and you will have a self, a kind of being that you are, okay?

So, this must be some other kind of self, right? When we say no ego, when you said no ego, did you mean pride, or what did you mean by ego?

[Говорящий 2]
To me, the hardest part of spiritual enlightenment is getting rid of the ego. It's putting others first and not thinking of yourself.

[Говорящий 1]
Okay, then that's like selfishness, say. Yes. Good, alright, okay.

Because sometimes you hear in Buddhism that there is no self, or something like that, or there's no me, or no I, and that's a Dharma rumor, okay? There is an I. The Buddha looks and sees I in the mirror, and when you get to Buddhahood, you're saying, I did it, I'm glad, now I can help other people, and all those I's exist, you know?

So, in that sense, the ego exists. And when you hear no self in Buddhism, it means something different than that. But if you say ego means selfishness, yeah, that's a kind of suffering.

Is it a cause of suffering, or a result of suffering? I'd say a cause, you know? I'd say like being selfish gives us most of our trouble.

So we'll say a cause. And then, suffering itself, different kinds? Like what?

Two main kinds in Buddhism. Two main kinds of suffering, or three if you want to get fancy. Do you know?

She said suffering of change. We can divide suffering into three kinds, okay? I'll ask you to say the Tibetan because it's good luck for you, okay?

It puts a seed in your mind. Say dungyel... gyi...

dungyel... dungyel... gyi...

dungyel... I have lots of students in New York, I have hundreds of students, and taxi drivers, plumbers, carpenters, lots of unemployed, and... dungyel...

they say they could never learn Tibetan. And then, after about six months, they're translating, and they're typing Tibetan, and... So I always start out like that, and then they...

the seed starts to get in your mind. Dungyel gyi dungyel means the first kind of suffering, means obvious suffering. Like, if you have a backache, or if you have a headache, or if you have pain like that.

So when they say, oh, if you reach nirvana you don't have any more suffering, the worst kind is... is the suffering of pain. I mean, mental or physical pain, you know?

The pain in your mind, and the pain in your body. So that's the first one you get... you want to get away from it, right?

Suffering of change is called gyurway, say gyurway... dungyel. Gyurway...

dungyel. Gyurway dungyel means... very nasty, any good thing you get in your life.

Okay, and you can make a list, you know, like... good friends that you have, your own health, healthy body, if you have any good looks, a little bit, that thing. Your eyes, your ears, your nose, your career, your identity, your children, or your parents, or your wife, or your husband.

Any good thing you get in this life must change. It will change, you know? If you're young you'll get old.

People make fun of their parents, you're going to be just like that. You know? It's just a matter of time, and everyone ends up like that.

And it doesn't matter how young you are, how healthy you are, or anything, you'll end up just like them and worse, you know? You'll be just like that. And it's just a matter of question of time.

So, any good thing you have, you'll lose. And that's the suffering of change. Okay?

That's the samsara. That's one of the bad things. Okay?

Then say, khyabpa... duje... kyi...

dungyel. Khyabpa... duje kyi...

dungyel. Khyabpa duje kyi dungyel means... third kind of suffering is the very specific one that...

this body... the nature of this particular body that you and I have, is that it must get older. Every day it's getting worse and worse and worse, and then one day it will die.

Okay? And that's... everybody has that.

Okay? Everybody in samsara has that. Okay?

So those are the three kinds of suffering. First one is obvious suffering, you know? Headache, backache, anguish in the mind, you know, upset that you're losing something, or somebody, or something like that.

Losing people you love. That kind of pain. And then physical pain, of being sick from time to time, and things like that.

Backache, headache. Second kind is... gyurwa dungyel, everything changes.

Everything nice in your life, everything good in your life, you will lose it. Slowly it will go away. Okay?

That's the nature of all the good things in our life. And there's no exceptions. Third one is...

regardless of whether you have a good life or a bad life, either way, you're going to get old. Slowly you won't be able to hear anything. Slowly...

I mean, even if you were never handsome or beautiful, at least you have a good mind, right? That will also go away. Okay?

All your intelligence will slowly go away. And everybody who's not there yet thinks it won't happen to them, and it will happen to everybody. And that's the inevitable change of the body.

Those three sufferings. Finally that you have to die, and that's all there is to it. That's the second one here.

So whoever said that, that was a big one. Okay, I don't remember. Can you get away from that, you see?

If that's samsara, and if you're supposed to be... we're supposed to be going from there to there, you know? Supposed to be...

if you become a Buddhist, and if you learn all these special techniques of Buddhism, it's supposed to be the case that you can go from samsara to nirvana. Does that mean you can go from losing things to not losing things? Does that mean you wouldn't have any more pain in your body?

Does that mean you wouldn't get old and die, you see? Is that the goal of Buddhism? We have to talk about it, okay?

We have to talk about it. You know the Heart Sutra? You've heard of the Heart Sutra?

My lama calls it the Heart Sutra. It says... it has a line in there, it says, marikpa...

marikpa me... marikpa sepa mepa ne gachi me gachi sepa pari ye me do means... if you stop misunderstanding things, then later you don't have to die, and you don't have to get old, okay?

The book says... this is the most famous book Buddha ever taught, one of the most famous. Is it...

did he mean it? You see what I mean? Did he really mean that?

I mean, how many Buddhists have you seen lately who weren't getting old, and weren't dying, you know? All these young, sixteen-year-old Buddhists running around not getting old, you know? I mean, is it...

is it possible? Is that a real goal of Buddhism? Okay?

That's a question. We'll talk about that. The Buddha in the Heart Sutra says yes, it is.

But we have to talk about it. And if it is, how come we didn't meet these guys? Where are they?

Maybe they go to a young folk's home or something. Okay? Third one is...

confusion. Confusion... I think that's a good one, because supposedly if you reach Nirvana, you understand everything, you know, about this world.

You don't have any more confusion. Like, you never have any more questions about what's going on here. I think the main confusion is why do people get old?

People ask me why I became a Buddhist. I say, we had six people in my family, four boys, two parents. And...

in one year, three of them died, you see? And... and you're wondering why, you see?

You don't understand why that would happen to people. And why is it that we have to get old? And why is it that we have to die?

And why is it that we're here? You know, what are we doing here? Who put me here?

You know, and... those are all big questions, you know. Why am I here?

If there's somebody who's organizing this thing called my life, you know, why did they make it so cruel, you see? Why do I have to lose everything, you know? Why can't, like, half the people not die?

Or... why can't half the people be happy and the other half be unhappy? Why is everybody getting unhappy sometimes?

What... why is that? Okay, and that's...

would go under the... the line of confusion. And if there's somebody who's controlling this thing, why do they do that?

Why do they make people and then kill them? You know, why do they make people and then make them old? You know, what's the point of doing that?

Why can't they just make us young all the time or something like that? Why do they do that to people? If they're testing them, couldn't they test them a little bit easier?

You know, and then finish it, and then we could all just be happy and young and healthy and like that. So, confusion would be, where is this coming from? Why...

why am I in this place, and why is everybody in this place getting old and dying? Okay? I mean, that's a question.

Okay? Confusion is like that. I think disappointment's one kind of suffering, right?

Especially... there's this cool thing about life that it looks like something could go right, and then it collapses. You see what I mean?

Things go right for a while, and then suddenly they go wrong for a while. ...go wrong for a while.

[Говорящий 2]
So they accept that the suffering will be there.

[Говорящий 1]
She said like this, disappointment is built on hope, right? I mean, you're hoping something will go right. Like, you get a job offer, and it sounds like the money's pretty good, and you go there, and then you find out it's seven days a week, and no vacation, and...

like that, you know? And then you're... you're disappointed only because you had some hope before that.

So she said, what about if we just didn't have any hope all the time? Then you'd never be disappointed. I think something like that.

And craving is very... very similar. There's this idea...

I don't know about Australia. In America, Zen came very big, Zen Buddhism, and part of the perception of it, I don't think it's the way they really teach it, but part of the idea that you hear about it is that Buddhists shouldn't care about anything. Like, Buddhists shouldn't like ice cream, or Buddhists shouldn't like movies, or Buddhists shouldn't like good music.

Like, if you didn't have ice cream, or you didn't have good music, or you didn't look at movies, then you'd be happier. You know, that there's something wrong about liking things, you see? And what's the difference between craving something and liking it?

You see, does the Buddha like anything? Or does the Buddha just like equal towards everything, you see? I mean, there's this idea that the Buddha said you should be equal towards everything.

Someone gives you ice cream, you feel a certain way. And if somebody hits you, you feel the same way. And you just feel the same about everything.

Is that the goal of Buddhism? You know? Is that a good goal?

Is it wrong to like ice cream? Is it wrong to dislike it if someone hits you? You know?

I mean, is there something wrong with us? Are we a bad Buddhist if we, you know, duck when the guy tries to hit you? You know?

Or somebody says, here, have some ice cream, and you feel good. Are you being a bad Buddhist? You see what I mean?

That's a rough idea. That's a difficult idea. People think Buddha said you shouldn't crave anything.

So, maybe you should just live in this constant state of, I don't care. And then, if good things happen to you, you don't care. And if bad things happen to you, you don't care.

Does that sound like a good place to be? Does that sound like what you want to reach in your life? You know?

Does it sound like Nirvana? I mean, I thought Nirvana would be a little better than that. You see?

But you see, you hear these things about Buddhism where, oh, you know, become a monk, sit in a cave, don't think about anything, don't want anything. Does the Buddha want anything? What do you think?

Of course! You know? What?

At least he wants everyone to be happy. You know what I mean? So, he has one craving, or he has one kind of liking things.

He would like to see everybody smiling, and he would like to see it if people didn't die anymore. He would like to see it if people didn't get old anymore. And I think he'd like ice cream better than a punch.

You know? It's not like that. So, that's not...

The craving part, you have to be very careful. We have to put a question mark about it. I'll put a question mark about it.

I'm not sure about craving, okay? I mean, you hear it in all the Buddhist books, you shouldn't have craving anymore, right? What does it mean, though?

Shouldn't become attached. And what's the difference between wanting something and being attached to something? You see?

And can a Buddhist ever be attached? He said that attachment would be the feeling of... not so much the feeling of liking it or not liking it, but once you have it, not wanting to let go of it, is what causes people their trouble.

Yeah? I don't know if it's the likes and dislikes, or things like that. I sometimes think, well, thanks, or at least it's something I'm seeing.

So she said, you know, she's been thinking... She doesn't know if it's exactly the same as this kind of attachment, but where, like, if someone stole your purse, and then maybe you could think of it as maybe they needed the money more than you, so you shouldn't be so worried about it. Like, I'd like to have a purse, but I'm not attached to the purse, because if somebody needs it more than I do, then I'll let it go.

And something like that. Is a Buddha attached to anything? You see, you have to put your mind on the nirvana side.

You have to try to imagine what a Buddha is feeling like, you know? In a perfect world, would you be attached to anything? Would they be attached, for example, to seeing other people happy?

And is that wrong? Would that be... Would that feel bad?

Would that feel wrong, to be attached to other people's happiness? I don't know. To be upset if they couldn't get it, right?

Do they get upset if people can't be happy? I think so. I think they would be upset.

I think that would make them not suffer, but be disappointed or something like that. Like, they're trying to see that you get to nirvana, and you keep doing things that keep you out of nirvana, and then they feel a little bit disappointed. Probably, I guess, you know?

I think so. How about materialism, you know? If you're a good Buddhist, can you own things?

You know, like a monk, in the old monk system, we're not supposed to touch money at all, you know? We can't keep a piece of cloth more than nine days or ten days without making it into a robe, and we're only allowed to have two robes, so that kind of limits how much you can own, you know? Not supposed to touch a stove.

Not supposed to store food. Not supposed to even own the amount of food that you could eat tomorrow. You're supposed to go every morning, naked, I mean, with your robes, with an empty bowl, and go try to find someone who will give you some food, because you're not allowed to keep food in your house.

You see what I mean? This is the old monk system. No materialism.

Don't own anything. You're allowed to have two sets of robes. You're allowed to have your bowl.

You're allowed to have a strainer, so you can strain the water in case there's any bugs in it, so you don't kill them, you see what I mean? Before you drink it. And in the monsoon, you're allowed to have a little extra cloth to cover your head in the pouring rain, you know?

And that's all. Is it wrong to own things? You know?

Is materialism bad? Yeah. In nirvana, is there no materialism?

You see? I like it. He says, money is not the root of all evil, that's what you do with it.

Yeah. I mean, in the bodhisattva ideal, in the bodhisattva system, even if you're a monk, okay, if you're a monk with bodhisattva commitments, or bodhisattva vow, and somebody offers you a warehouse full of cloth, or they offer you a million dollars, you take it, you know? And you use it for other people, you know?

I mean, it's very, very good to have material to use it for other people. So, in the Mahayana, in the bodhisattva system, materialism is good if you use the material for other people. You see what I mean?

Like, you can draw down a big salary, and people can offer you money, and you're supposed to take it. If they are sincere, and if it won't be a hardship for them, then you're supposed to take it, because you can use it for other people. So, I think we have to be careful about the materialism part, you know?

Who is the richest man in Tibet? Six, seven hundred rooms in his house, in the Patala Palace, okay? Yeah, really, the Dalai Lama, by far.

I mean, much more gold and jewels than anyone else in the country. And there was a joke, the last Dalai Lama, he said, I don't own anything except my robes. You see what I mean?

So, he doesn't think of the money as he owns it, you know? But he uses it for people, you know? And that's fine.

So, you've got to be careful about materialism. We were talking today in a business seminar, that you can be a perfect Buddhist and be a businessman, no problem. You know, if you run your business in a compassionate way, and if you use the money for helping people, then that's great, that's fine.

And there were many, many... In India, the great Buddhists were called Tantrikas, you know? The ones who practiced these secret methods to become a fully enlightened being in one life.

Most often, they were the great businessmen of their countries, or the great royalty, or the kings of their countries. The Tantric systems were designed and taught first to people who in this culture would be the business people, because they didn't have much time and they needed something fast, and they were usually pretty capable people. So, that was...

I think you've got to be careful about materialism. Maybe we'll put stupid materialism, okay? I mean, stupid materialism would be expending all of your energy and your mind and your health and your effort of your adult years, of your best years, to collect money for yourself, which you must lose, you see what I mean?

And you don't know when. See, if you knew when, then it would make some sense. If you knew you could keep it until 73 years old or something, then it would make sense between 30 and 50 to collect it, because then you know you have 23 years to use it or something like that.

But this, in the world we live in, you don't know that you will live until tomorrow morning. You really don't know. So then, to collect money for yourself becomes stupid.

Stupid materialism. You know what I mean? To spend your health and your best years of your life and the best moments in your mind, all that intelligence to collect something just for yourself and not know that you can use it next week, that's silly.

I think that's the kind of materialism maybe belongs on the samsara side. If you're using it for others or primarily thinking to benefit others, and you can, then I think there's probably a smart materialism over here. And that's fine.

And that's the bodhisattva ideal. Okay? Coming back again.

Coming back where? Okay, this is the hardest one I think. I mean, this is the hardest one.

If you reach nirvana tonight, okay, supposedly, by the way, it's not a big deal. I mean, in the Tibetan, we have in Tibet four and a half thousand books from ancient India that explain how to get to nirvana. If you had five or six good pages of these books, and if you practiced it well, if someone trained you properly, you could reach nirvana in a year or two or three years or something like that.

You can do it. No big deal. You can reach there.

Would you disappear? That's a big question. Would you still be here?

Would you still be sitting in this room, for example? But would that be nirvana? What is nirvana, you see?

Yeah. She said, if I got rid of all my karma now ... We have to know the answers to this question, by the way.

Otherwise, no reason to come to a Buddhist class. If you don't know what you want, then much less figure out how to get it. You see what I mean?

You have to be very clear what you want. When they say, not coming back, does that mean you wouldn't have to come back to Brisbane, or ... Where is it that you're not coming back to?

Say again? This whole world? Oh, so your spirit or your mind would still be here, but your body would be gone.

Something like that? Is that what you mean? I'm talking about rebirth, too.

I'm talking about rebirth, too. Yeah. Wouldn't have to come back ...

Where, though? Here? I mean, to this kind of life, in this planet, say, or a similar kind of life, okay?

We'll talk about it, okay? We'll talk about it. That's a hard one.

That's a hard one. What does it mean to come back, you see? We'll talk about that.

I'm going to put a question mark there. We've got to talk about that. I think chaos, for sure.

Chaos is easy. I mean, it must be part of samsara. I mean, chaos implies people getting hurt, and things don't make sense, and sounds like life, okay?

Yeah, we don't want that. We'll put that on the samsara side, for sure. Nirvana side, compassion.

That, for sure. I think it's uplifting. It makes you feel good.

It's the right thing to do. Can you have compassion and still be dying? You see, if you had perfect compassion, would you still die?

I think, I mean, you'd probably say yes. You'd probably say yes. Especially given the case that we haven't seen anybody like meditate for three years, and then jump up and say, I don't have to die anymore.

You know, we haven't met anybody like that. I mean, there hasn't been any announcement in the newspapers, or anything, okay? But we'll put compassion there, although it seems that just compassion is not nirvana.

You see what I mean? Freedom from what? Who said freedom?

From? The slavery of oneself, of the ego, of the craving to be free of samsaric existence. Yeah, freedom from oneself.

But does a Buddha have a self? Yeah. Yeah, freedom from the lower self, maybe, and not freedom from a higher self.

So then we have to decide what's the difference between a higher self and a lower self, okay? Bliss? Bliss for sure, okay?

Are there any kinds of bliss that are in samsara side? Say again? I like that!

I really like that! You know what I mean? People say, you're a monk, probably you don't like ice cream at all, or anything, you know?

And I'm like, actually I do like ice cream! You know? Salim went out in his car and got me some, you know?

I can't say I don't like ice cream. So what's the difference between good bliss and bad bliss, you know? To me, bad bliss would be one that ended, you see what I mean?

And that's exactly what they say in the books, you know? Like, the feeling you get from good music, the feeling you get from dancing all night, the feeling you get from relationships, when they're going well, the feeling you get from good food, anything, doesn't matter. There's something about that which is very, very good, and very right, and I think it's important to say that Buddhists are not denying that.

You see what I mean? When you say, I want to be happy, or nirvana to me would be reaching happiness or joy, I don't think you can take the sound of good rock and roll, or the taste of good ice cream, or a good movie, or a good book, or a close friend, or a lover, or anything else, and say that that's something you want to escape, you see what I mean? There's something good about that, and I think it's kind of foolish to say that that's bad, you see what I mean?

The only bad thing about it is it goes away. So I think you have to distinguish between those two. When you think about a Buddha paradise, or you think about going to a Buddha heaven, I mean, I don't know about you, but every time I look at those pictures, those guys look happy to me, you know?

Everyone is beautiful. They're playing music. People, there's beautiful things there.

It's not like they paint them as dull, or normal, or not having a good time. They're obviously having a good time. So it must be that the good time that we have, and the happiness that we have, physical pleasure, mental happiness, I mean, I can't imagine heaven that isn't like that, you see?

In my mind, when I imagine nirvana, or going to heaven, or paradise, of course all that stuff is like that, okay? But it doesn't stop the way it stops here. Here it just crashes all the time, you see?

In this world, in this realm, every good thing you have, sooner or later you come down from it, and it turns into some kind of unhappiness. People ask me, what made you a Buddhist? If it's a business group, I say, oh, death in my family, you know?

To be frank, it was my high school girlfriends, okay? And it was that experience about, you feel good, good, good, good, everything's happening good, and then suddenly it's down like this. And then you dislike them more than before you even met them, you know what I mean?

Like, after six months, after a year, it's not just that you feel less excited, or less interested, usually you just hate them, you know? I mean, there's something going on there, you know? And it's the same with any kind of pleasure.

Like, if you've ever been young and healthy, and then got old, you know? Then you're constantly thinking about it, you're constantly thinking, boy, I remember when I could surf, you know? I'm so afraid that Salim's going to get me surfing, because I can't do it anymore.

And I used to do it for decades when I was a kid, right? But now I can't do it anymore, and I don't want to even admit it, you see? I don't want to get out there and say, well, actually I don't think I can do it anymore, you know?

And there's something about the good things in our life that always goes like that, and then it comes like that, and then it goes down. So I think what you said is right. The bliss that doesn't change, I put it on the nirvana side.

Bliss the way we've always experienced bliss, I put it on the samsara side. Temporary bliss, or, you know, I'm going to put it over here. What do you call it?

Transient. By the way, does that mean I can't enjoy transient blisses? You know, if a good song comes on the radio, should I turn it off?

If somebody offers me ice cream, should I say no thanks? Of course not, you know what I mean? Dalai Lama, I met him in Washington, D.C., he was at a fundraiser. I don't know if you know Ritchie Havens, but anyway, he was at Woodstock, my generation. And he's playing this really good music, and his holiness is going like that, you know? And I imagine that he's enjoying it, you know?

And he knows it's going to end, you know? He has to go back to India and everything. But, he seemed to be enjoying it, you know?

So, I think there must be something about those emotions there. I don't think you can say... I mean, I don't...

And I can tell you, I've studied very hard in the monastery for 20 years. The books don't say anywhere that you can't enjoy things, you know what I mean? Of course you can.

The only problem with them is that they end. You want to... If you're really good at seeking pleasure, you have to graduate from pleasures that don't last to pleasures that do last, you know?

That's all. I think as a monk, you're not giving up pleasure because you don't like pleasure. You're giving it up because you want one that lasts longer.

Okay? And I think the best monks I know are people who partied well, they tried all things well, you know, in their younger years, me included. And then later you got graduated to a place where you wanted to stay with you longer.

You know, you want to come to a place where you can keep it longer. And that comes from other things. It doesn't come from the things you used to use.

It comes through other methods, you see? And they last longer. So, to me, nirvana would be like that.

Love for sure. Love for sure. I can't think of...

I guess you have to distinguish between stupid love and smart love, you know? Stupid love to me would be... In Buddhism, if there's a kind of love that would make you hurt somebody, you see?

Then you have to put it over on the samsara side. Like, you want to get away from that. So what is stupid love?

Stupid love would be, you have some attachment for somebody where you would be willing to hurt them or somebody else to keep it. You see? I think I distinguish between attachment, meaning wanting to keep something, and attachment, meaning wanting to keep something and being willing to hurt somebody to keep it.

You see what I mean? If it's just attachment in the sense of, I would like to be young. I would like to be able to serve for the next 30 years.

I don't think that's bad unless it makes me unhappy somehow. You see what I mean? I think there's a distinction there.

It's okay to want to be able to serve for the next 30 years. It's not okay to be unhappy about it, or to be angry about it if I can't, or to be jealous of someone else who can, or something like that. Okay?

I think there's a good attachment and a bad attachment. Okay? Wisdom...

What do you mean when you say wisdom? Who said wisdom? I don't remember.

Yeah, what does it mean to you in a brief? Well, it is a connotation of skillfulness to it.

[Говорящий 2]
Yeah. Understanding things fit together so you can...

[Говорящий 1]
He said, like a skillfulness or an insight or understanding how things fit together so you can act appropriately. That's perfect. I mean, that's pretty much the definition of wisdom.

Ultimately, wisdom would be knowing why people die, what makes people die, what makes people get old, what makes you lose your girlfriend, you know? And then, change it. You know?

Change to something else. Wisdom would be understanding where those things come from. Okay?

It has to come from somewhere. You know, about that, Western science is correct. Okay?

They're wrong about a lot of other things, I think. But about that, that everything has to have a cause, they're absolutely right. You know?

There must be a reason why we have to die. There must be something causing that. There must be a reason why we get old.

There must be a reason why every time you meet a girl and you get to know her and then you have this relationship, then it crashes after that. You know, there must be a reason why this thing happens every single time. There must be a reason why you have to lose everything you find in this life.

There must be something causing that. I mean, scientists are right about that. The idea is, wisdom's function, wisdom's job, is to figure out why.

You know? And then you'd have to change it, right? You'd have to change it.

But that implies that you wouldn't get old or die. You see what I mean? And we didn't see anybody do that yet.

Is it possible or not? We have to talk about that. Peace for sure.

Peace, I think, mentally mostly, right? I mean, political peace is one thing. I have a feeling if we all had peace mentally, the political peace would come automatically after that, you know?

So some kind of peace of mind. Some kind of contentment. Ability to be happy.

And then clarity and emptiness. Clarity of awareness would be some kind of very deep state of meditation, or some very clear way to see things, some clear way to think. Clear mind.

And then on top of that, emptiness. What is emptiness? No, it's very popular in Buddhism, you know?

I read... I work in this big corporation. My boss made me read the book by the chairman of Sony.

I forget his name. It's not Sony. What's his name?

I forget. And he kept talking about emptiness. He says, if you understand emptiness, you can be a good businessman.

You know? What's...anybody? A little bit. See things as they really are, free of projection on our parts.

Okay, see things as they are free of projection. We'll get to that. Alright, we have to cover a couple of things.

We kind of have a definition of... I'll go over the good parts and the bad parts, okay? On the nirvana side, I mean, to me, I would add, do we dare add no more dying, and no more getting old, okay?

No more losing things that you don't want to lose, okay? No more having things happen to you that you don't want to have happen to you. Something like that.

And no more being unhappy, okay? And then, on the samsara side, I would put death, getting old, being unhappy, having things change that you don't want to change, not being able to get the things you want to get, and things always collapsing, all the time. Every time something goes right, your business is finally going right after years, your relationship is finally going right after years, you finally feel healthy after a long time of trying to feel healthy, and then a week later all those things are gone, or a year later.

I would put that on the samsara side, okay? So now, escaping from samsara, how do you do that? You see what I mean?

And here we get into very serious goals, you know? It's one thing to say, oh, Buddhists should sit down for half an hour a day, don't think about anything, watch your thoughts float through your mind, try to be more peaceful, don't think much. You know what I mean?

Something like that. Is that the goal of Buddhism? Is that what escape from samsara would be, you see?

Is that where the jail is? Is just feeling nervous, or anxiety, or... or like that?

And if you could sit on this floor for an hour or two hours, and not think about anything, or feel pretty good, or be more friendly to other people, would you... have you become a good Buddhist? Have you reached the goals of Buddhism?

Are those the goals of Buddhism? You see what I mean? Is that why we're here tonight?

You see what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, she's saying more like you would get to a point where problems would come to you, you would use those kinds of methods to solve them, and then they may come back to you again, but then you could use those methods to solve them again.

I have a different proposal, okay? Completely different. And this is what they teach us in the monastery for twenty years, you know?

It takes twenty years to finish the course in a Tibetan monastery. They say a much different goal, okay? It's not that you learn to deal properly with bad things, it's that you stop what makes them happen, completely, okay?

It's very interesting. You're not learning to deal with problems, you're learning to eliminate them completely. So it's not like you're just getting very good at damage control, you see?

That's not, it's not that. And it's not learning to deal with disappointments, or learning to deal with death, or learning to deal with loss of your loved ones, or something like that. Nirvana is a place that you reach that those things don't happen anymore.

Okay? I mean, I ... This is what the Buddha really taught, you know?

And I don't know those other things ... We're talking big time here, you know? We're talking something serious here.

The Buddha actually taught, throughout his life, to try to find a way to stop problems altogether, not to deal with them after they come, okay? It's a very big difference, you see what I mean? It's not like how to deal with death, because death is going to happen to you anyway, or how to deal with disappointment because disappointment is going to happen to you anyway.

It's not like that. That's not what the Buddha taught. The Buddha said, you can find out what causes every problem of human life, and you can stop it, and you won't see those things anymore.

It's very interesting. It's a big difference from, you know, close your eyes and think about nothing, and the next time you lose your wife or your husband, you won't mind it so much. You see what I mean?

It's not like that. It's really not like that. The idea is, can you stop those things completely?

Could you and your husband reach a place where you don't have to die? And if that's true, if there's crazy American guys out there talking about that kind of Buddhism, then how come we didn't see anybody get to that? You see what I mean?

Oh, if they teach you that in a Tibetan monastery, then where'd all these guys go? Didn't they die when the Chinese attacked Tibet? What are you talking about?

I just wanted to get sort of calm, you know, or I wanted to learn to deal with my work situation, you know. So we have to talk about the difference between those two. I'm not crazy.

That is what the Buddha taught, and it has a lot to do with emptiness, okay? And I'd like to ... We'll do that after a break, okay?

So take a five, ten minute break. Relax, walk around, and then we'll get into, is there a way not to get old and die and have those other problems at all? Okay?

So stick around, okay? Okay, we'll start again. I have like half an hour to explain the path to deathlessness.

So I'm just going to go straight, all right? Okay. Lord Buddha spent about ...

He taught for fifty years, and for about twenty-five years he taught about emptiness, and for about twenty-five years he taught about karma and compassion. So I'm going to go real quick through those ideas and demonstrate to you that it's possible not to die, and that that's the real goal of Buddhism, okay? And frankly, it's not just to be more calm, or to be more friendly, or to put up with suffering of your life.

It's to actually stop it, you see? So there's a difference between ... I think a lot of people's idea of Buddhism is that you'll learn to meditate, and the underlying assumption is that you'll get very good at dealing with all the problems of your life, and that that's what Buddhism is for.

But it's much more radical, it's much more grand than that. The idea is that you could actually stop your aging and death. That is the promise of Buddhism, and that is what the Buddha said in the Heart Sutra, for example.

marikpa me, marikpa sepa mepa ne, ga shi mi ga she sepa pa du, yin me do means ... if you stop misunderstanding things, you can stop everything up to your aging and your death. And when he says misunderstanding things, he means emptiness.

So, you get a twenty-five minute course in emptiness and karma and how not to die, okay? Then it takes a little longer than that to practice it, alright? What is this?

Okay, no, suppose you're a very strict scientist. Yeah, it's a cylinder. It's a black cylinder, okay?

I mean, that's all you're really sure about. You're not sure this is the same thing I was writing with. Maybe it's a clever piece of wood or wax, or something like that, you know?

I mean, if you're really going to be scientific, you have to say, oh, you're holding a black cylinder, okay? And if a dog walked into this room, at this moment, and came up to this front of this, and I put this out to the dog, how would the dog react to it? He would sniff it, and then he might chew on it.

Puppy, okay? Let's say puppy. You know puppies, okay?

He'll start ... And we call it a chewable object, you know? So, this black cylinder to you, given your mind, and your brain, and your experiences in your life, when I hold this up and I say, what is this thing?

You say, it's a pen. And nobody in this room says, hmm, I don't know, but I'd like to chew on it, you know? You know what I mean?

That's what makes you different from a dog. Or a puppy, okay? And, who's right?

Is this black cylinder a pen, or is this black cylinder something good to chew on? Who's right? Both, okay?

Both. You see? From the point of view of a dog, a puppy, who likes to chew on things, it's something to chew on.

From the point of view of a human who uses these things often, it's a pen. But it's important to say that both of them are valid. Both of them have their own truth.

Both of them are a part of the reality of this black cylinder, okay? So, two different realities can be going on in the same cylinder. You see?

A dog's reality, a dog's version of the cylinder, and a human's version of the cylinder. The dog's version of the cylinder is something good to chew. The human's version of the cylinder is something good to write with.

And... those don't contradict, you see? One...

Normally, you couldn't be both at the same time for the same person. You see? It's kind of hard to write with it in your mouth.

Actually, you could do it. But, normally you don't have both of those versions at the same time. If you're a dog, you have one.

If you're a human, you have the other. But which is it really? Neither.

That's its emptiness. Emptiness doesn't mean anything else. Get used to it.

Okay? All that stuff about black holes, and wandering around, and watching your thoughts, and all that stuff, totally, completely ridiculous, doesn't help you anything. That's the emptiness of the pen.

And it doesn't take Einstein to see it. You see? You just saw the emptiness of this pen.

Not directly, that's a different thing. But you just understood that this pen doesn't come from its own side. And that's what emptiness means.

Okay? That's all. If I say, which one is it really?

You say, well, neither or both, I guess, depending on how you mean it. You see? But you can't say that I'm more right than the dog.

You see what I mean? The dog is seeing it his way, and that's a good dog's way of seeing it. And I'm seeing it another way, and that's a good human's way of seeing it.

But which is it really? You have to say neither one. I mean, it depends on who's looking.

It depends on who's looking. So that's what we mean when we say emptiness. It doesn't have a nature of being a pen from its own side, and neither does it have the nature of being a dog treat from its own side.

From its own side, it's neutral. And neutral and emptiness mean the same thing here. From its own side, it's just a black cylinder.

From its own side, it's just a black cylinder. Now, does emptiness mean it's not here? No.

All it means is that from its own side, from its side towards you, it's not a pen or a dog treat. It depends on who you are. If you're walking on four legs and you have a tail, you see it one way.

If you're walking on two legs and you don't have a tail, you see it a different way. They're both valid. They're both correct.

They both have their own correctness to them. But from the black cylinder's own side, neither one exists. It's not from its own side a pen, and it's not from its own side a dog treat.

If you say, no, no, from its own side it's a pen, he doesn't see it right. You're not giving animal rights. You see what I mean?

They have their rights. They can see it their way. They're more stupid than we are, but they have a right to see it their own way.

And for them it is reality, you see? You can't say it's not real for them. It is real for them.

But it's a dog treat for them. And for a human who has that experience, it's a pen, and from its own side it's neither one. Okay?

So, question is, why does it look to be a pen to you, and why does it look to be something to chew to the dog? And this is what we call dependent arising or dependent origination. This is the real meaning of dependent origination in Buddhism.

Okay? What makes it look like a pen? What makes it seem to be something to chew on?

Where is that coming from? Is it coming from the side of this black cylinder? No.

By the way, the proof of that is, if it was coming from the black cylinder, then the dog would also pick it up and try to use it as a pen. You see? Because it would look that way to everybody.

And if being something good to chew on was coming from its side, then you guys would be... what do you call it? Dueling!

Okay? If it's coming from its own side. By the way, that's the emptiness of this pen.

Very simple. There's no mystery, or weird, or something like that. You have to go to the Himalayas to see that, or anything like that.

Nothing like that. From its own side, it doesn't have one of those... that's its emptiness.

Okay? What's that got to do with me reaching nirvana? You know, this is supposed to be the door to nirvana.

Oh, see emptiness and you get to nirvana real fast. What's it got the least thing to do with nirvana?

[Говорящий 2]
We must look upon everything as being non-existent or...

[Говорящий 1]
Whoa! Let me write on your nose with this... No, just kidding, just kidding.

No, just kidding. Here we go. What's in the dog's mind?

You see, looking at it as something to chew on, or looking at it as something to write with, is coming from your mind. You see? Its pen-ness is coming from your mind.

What's between you and me and this pen? There's about 20 feet, 30 feet, right? What part of you is aware of this cylinder?

Only your eyes. You see? What are your eyes capable of doing?

They can only record colors and shapes. You see? Your eye is like a camera.

A camera can't decide by itself, this is a pen or this is something to chew on. A camera is just recording the shape and the color of this thing. To a camera, this is just a black cylinder.

It's not making a decision about what it is, right? And your eye is the same, you see? Your eye can't decide, oh, this is a pen.

And your eye can't decide, oh, this is something to chew on. What decides? Your mind, okay?

The mind behind the eye. The eye goes, hey, Mr. Mind, we have something out here. And Mr. Mind says, what do we have?

He says, I don't know. If I open my eyes and I look over that guy's hand, there's a black, something black. He says, what can I shape?

Cylinder. It looks like a cylinder. Okay, and then the eye says to the mind, what do you think it is?

And the mind says, must be a pen. If you're a... human.

Okay? The same conversation is going on with the dog. You know, the dog eye says to the dog mind, we have something out here.

It's black, it's a cylinder. Dog mind just jumps on it. Something to chew on, I bet.

Okay? He's like, oh! And he's like, drooling, okay?

It's interesting to understand. This is, by the way, the real meaning of dependent origination. This is the ultimate meaning of dependent origination.

And it's very important for getting to Nirvana. There's something in the dog's mind that's making them see it that way. And there's something in the human's mind that's making them see it that way.

And if you think very carefully, that's what it is to be a dog. And that's what it is to be a human. To see things the way a dog sees things is what it is to be a dog.

And to see things the way a human sees them is what it is to be a human. And you could easily slide from one to the other if the mind changed. You see what I mean?

If whatever it is in the mind that makes you see it as a pen, and we're not going to discuss that yet, very soon. About ten minutes left, right Allison? And it could easily change into something that makes you see it as something to chew on.

And then wouldn't you become a dog, you see? So rebirth is not so wacky. Rebirth is not so difficult.

Rebirth is a slight change in whatever it is that's making you see this as a pen. So talk about the rebirth. If the dog's ...

If suddenly your mind started to see this as a ... as something to chew on, if whatever in your mind is making you see it as a pen changed to something in your mind that sees it as something to chew on, we would say, you have just taken a dog's rebirth. You have just changed to a dog.

You see? There is something in your mind that makes you see it as a pen, and there is something in his mind that makes him see it as something to chew on, and if your mind changed from one to the other, well, would you see this as something to chew on? Yeah!

And when you look down at that other cylinder, this one, what would you see? I mean, fur, and a paw. You see?

And you say, no, no, no, I'm not that crazy. I could maybe imagine chewing on the thing, but I can't imagine that one day I'd have to look down and see that. That's obviously an arm.

You know? That's obviously not a furry covered leg and a paw. Obviously.

Any fool can see that. It's not the same as that what? It's not the same as what?

That chewable thing. Oh, he's getting it. You see?

You see? Then you're saying that this thing exists from its own side. Then you're saying this has to be a pen to a dog.

These two cylinders are not different, please. Okay? You're just more used to seeing this one as an arm.

It's easy for you to think of chewing this. It's hard for you to think that you could look at this cylinder and see some fur and a paw. You think it's too weird, you see?

I can imagine being really hungry and thinking about chewing on this. But I can't imagine that one day I could wake up and look down and this thing would be covered with fur and be a paw, but it's exactly the same thing, okay? The only difference is, there's something in your mind right now that's making you see this cylinder as an arm.

And that thing could change later and make you see this cylinder as a paw, and we proved it with the pen. Ah! Cylinder.

We proved it with the cylinder, okay? Your arm has emptiness, meaning that cylinder doesn't have an identity of being an arm or a paw from its own side. This cylinder doesn't have its own identity of being a pen or something to chew on from its own side.

It's coming from somewhere else. Where? Your mind.

So is it possible that your mind could get so strange that one morning you wake up and see this as a paw? That would make you... By the way, that's what it is to take a dog rebirth.

It's not so hard to become a dog. It's not that hard. It just means seeing this cylinder as a paw instead of a hand, okay?

What would make you do that? What is it in your mind when you look at this cylinder that your mind jumps to the idea, this is a pen? Why does your mind jump to that right away?

Why does your mind... It took me like two minutes to get you guys to say this was a cylinder, okay? A container, somebody said.

It took you like a minute or two. You were assuming that it was a pen from its own side. What is it in your mind that's making you think like that?

Conditioning. But two kinds of conditioning, okay? There's the conditioning of learning it in this life, you know?

Your daddy or your mommy said, look, you know, hey, look at this black cylinder, and then they opened it, and then you took it and drew on the walls of the house, and they said, no, no, you can't do that, and you know what I mean? And that's a part of the answer. But I mean, you could sit there with a dog and explain to them and write on the wall and everything and say that, and then give it to them and say, okay, Rover, you know, here, what is this?

And they'll still chew on it. Okay, what is it in their mind that makes them see it that way? Instinct.

You could say, but where does instinct come from? You see, instinct ... the word instinct is sort of ...

means, oh, automatic. All dogs think like that. They can't help that.

You know? Where does instinct come from? I mean, Buddhism says your past lives.

Buddhism says karma. That is karma. Okay?

Karma from your past life. Harming ... beings ...

in your past life, doing serious harm to other people in your past life, would make ... put those seeds in your mind to see this cylinder as something to chew on. If you see it as something to chew on, you're a ...

dog. If you see it as something to write with, you're a ... human.

And that's how karma and emptiness work together. If you understand that, you can reach nirvana. I'll roll it by you again.

By the way, here karma and emptiness start to work together. This is why the Buddha spent half his life talking about karma, compassion, and half his life talking about emptiness. The point is, this cylinder and this cylinder are empty.

They don't have a nature of being an arm from their own side. They don't have a nature of being a pen from their own side. We proved it with a pen, and nobody objected.

When I started talking about the arm, people were like ... you know, I don't know about that one. It's the same thing.

You have to admit it's the same thing. There's something in my mind that makes me see this cylinder as an arm. And there's something in my mind that makes me see this cylinder as a pen.

And come on, it can change. You see? Your mind changes easily.

You ought to know that by now. You know, the human mind is like the hardest thing to stop in the world. It's constantly changing.

The point is that ... Buddhism says, you don't have to believe me, but this is how nirvana works, okay? This is how nirvana really works.

And then you chew on it. You go home ... Oh, think about it, okay?

You go home and think about it, you know? Buddhism says that ... this is just, from its own side, it's just a cylinder.

Like this one. And then, there's something in my mind called my past karmic seeds, past karmic imprints, okay? That makes me see it this way.

Those are wearing out as we talk. Like all other energy in the world, as they ... as they create their effect, they are wearing down.

Gas is running out. Petrol is running out. I don't want you to call it in Australia, but anyway ...

It's running out as we speak, okay? What happens when it runs out completely? What happens when those seeds run out completely?

You think you're dying, you see? You see yourself die. It's very interesting.

When the seeds in your mind that are making you see this cylinder as a hand wear out, and they must wear out, they're just like tree seeds, okay? As soon as they wear out, you will ... stop moving.

Why? Why? Because you see yourself stop moving.

Why? Because your past karmic seeds run out, okay? That's what causes death.

That's why people die. And you can change that. It's very cool.

It's very, very ... exciting. You know?

Very interesting the older you get actually. I'm speaking from experience. I mean, if there's some way that you could change those seeds in your mind, keep them from wearing out, then you wouldn't have to see that die.

You see what I mean? That's where death comes from. So how do you become like this beautiful Buddhist angel?

You see? How could you reach heaven and become this body of light? I mean, beautiful, shining jewels, silk, bliss forever.

Not like ice cream that you can't get all the time, you see? Not like your wife or your husband or your house that wears out, you see what I mean? That dies.

But, total bliss, happiness, beautiful light shining off this thing, off the same cylinder, okay? How to do it? Plant the right karma.

You know? Go out, plant the right karma. Okay?

It's really cool. It's not impossible at all. If it's possible to see this as a pen, if you have one set of seeds in your mind, and if it's possible to see it as something to chew on, if you have a different set of seeds in your mind, then why not...

why shouldn't it be possible to see this as some kind of golden light, like incredibly beautiful golden light, you know? It's theoretically, okay? You have to admit, we only have a few minutes left.

I don't have much time. You have to admit it's possible. If it's possible to see this two very different ways, then you have to admit it's possible to see it a third way.

You see what I mean? Of course it's possible. And if it's possible to see this as an arm, and if it's possible to see this as a paw, depending on my own mind, right?

Then it's very possible it could become an angel's arm, and the rest too, okay? So what makes me different from a dog? How can I get to that?

Really, really good karma, okay? Really, really nice karma, you know? Find out the best ways to collect good karma, and then work really hard at it.

And that's where compassion comes in, you know? Take care of other people. Dedicate your lives to helping others.

Do everything you can to serve people around you, and never ever get angry with anybody, or jealous, or upset at anybody. And then the seeds in the mind will be different, as different as a human is from a dog. And this would become like an angel's arm.

You can do it, you see? That's why Buddha spent half his life talking about compassion, and doing good things for other people, and never being angry, never hating anyone. The whole idea is, that one day you wake up, and you don't see it that way anymore, okay?

Theoretically possible, right? Why? Because your arm is as empty as the pen.

Okay? In theory, this is all possible, okay? Last question, then you can go home.

Okay? How come we didn't see anybody do this? You don't see Buddhist monks like, pouring out of their monasteries, all golden light, you know?

Hey, I don't have to die anymore. She says it's really difficult to do, right? In this number.

What do you say? Ah! I love it!

It's beautiful. I mean, you just got the emptiness of everything. It's a beautiful answer.

Fantastic. They always put one angel in the audience, who, they plant one, you know? Okay.

Anyway, you can look like a normal person for a while, it's okay. He's just exactly that, you know? The dog swears this is a doable thing.

You say, no, Rover, it's a pen. I swear it's a pen. He says, I don't know what a pen is.

I don't know what you're talking about. It's something to chew on. Give it to me.

I'll prove it. You know what I mean? And then, if dogs going around saying, those humans, they're always talking about pens.

There's no pens. There's these black things you chew on, you know? I don't know what they're talking about.

They swear to God, there's no pens. You see what I mean? Yeah, you can't see that yet.

You don't know what I'm seeing when I look at this cylinder, you know? You don't know what another person is seeing. You really don't know.

That's the emptiness of those cylinders, you see? They could be seeing it one way, and you could be seeing the person as a normal person. There could be angels around you all the time.

You don't know, okay? Oh, no, no. The way I see it is the way it is.

Oh, well then, this has to be something to chew on. You see what I mean? If you're going to be that undemocratic, and say that dogs don't have any rights, and, oh, sorry, dogs, right.

It's a pen. It has to be a pen. It can only be a pen.

It can only be the way I see it. Because then you're saying that a dog can't see it as something to chew on. Nothing in the universe has its own identity.

That's the emptiness of all things. That's why it blew everybody's mind when the Buddha taught the Heart Sutra. He gets up there and says, nothing has its own identity.

Nothing. Not this black cylinder, and not your arm, and nothing else. It depends on the person seeing it.

And if they have certain seeds in their mind, they will see themselves pass into a Buddha paradise before your eyes. And you'll think they're just a plain old Joe. You say, plain old person.

To you they look like that. And they really do look like that to you. Which one are they?

Careful. They're both. No problem.

Get used to that. That's why Buddhists, you know, they look at things different. No problem.

This is a pen, and it's also something to chew on. Depends on who's looking. That's not a problem.

Okay? That's how you can get to Buddha heaven. That's how you don't have to die anymore.

Okay? I mean, really we should have another lecture about how to do that good karma, right? Maybe we'll do that over the weekend.

Okay? So you have to come if you like. Okay?

And we'll talk about it then. But in theory you have to admit it's possible now. Okay?

Could I ask you a question? When Buddha was about to die, and they asked, will you stay with us? And he sort of said, like, you left it too late.

You know, like, how does that sort of come in with that? Not dying, but did they have to have a time frame to sort of... Why did they have to...

[Говорящий 2]
Yeah.

[Говорящий 1]
He says that when Lord Buddha apparently passed from this world, and they asked him, could you please stay? We need you, you know. And he said, no, no.

You asked me too late. It's too late. I'm going to die.

We call it sultemba. In the Mahayana, we say that the Buddha didn't die. And if he...

I mean, if a Buddha had to die, it wouldn't be a Buddha. You see what I mean? Buddhas don't have to die.

At all. No such thing. They are showing death for our benefit.

You see what I mean? They're saying it would be helpful for people if I appeared to die, because then they would get serious about things. But on a deeper level, why do we see the Buddha die?

Why do we see great monks or great lamas die? Yeah, that's your karma to see it. Who knows what they're seeing?

I mean, they're passing into their nice paradise, you know, and you see it as dying. Oh, come on. You're just...

imagining that. No, no, no. If it applies to the black cylinder, it applies to death as well.

Don't... don't be unscientific on me. Okay?

Anything that's true of this cylinder is true of... of people dying or not dying. Okay?

You got to get used to that. No problem. You can live in a world of death, and people around you can be entering a Buddha paradise.

And there's no contradiction there. Okay? Samsara exists in this room, and nirvana exists in this room.

The same way that a pen and a chewable thing exist on this black cylinder. Exactly the same principle. Exactly the same principle.

There's a dog world going on in this room, and there's a human world going on in this room. And don't think there's no Buddha world going on in this room. You see, there's no contradiction there.

There could be a third world going on here that you can't see right now, and that you will see. Why? Because the room is empty.

That's the connection between emptiness and karma. And then all you got to do now is figure out how to collect good karma. And you can.

You can do it. And it's a really neat experience to see your world start to change. Okay?

To go from being a dog, and seeing this as something to chew on, and to have the pleasure of being a human and making poetry and love songs and everything else with this thing... I mean, imagine the difference. And then imagine that there's other beings who see it a totally different way, which you can't even imagine now.

Okay? And that's the difference. There is a world like that.

And you just have to figure out, you need to do the right karma to see it that way. If I describe a world like that, can you see it just by wishing? When you were ten years old, did you ever go to the church and pray for Aunt...

for me it was Aunt... what's her name? Joyce.

That she wouldn't die, and she died anyway. And then you decided there was something wrong with this approach. You see what I mean?

No, it's not by willpower. You can't just do it because you wish it. You can be aware that there's another world in this room.

You can be aware that some people in this room might be seeing this room as something totally different. But you can't just get there by wishing, or you'd be there already. You see?

You can't make Aunt Joyce not die just by wishing it. And she did die anyway. You know what I mean?

It's from doing good deeds, and it's from being compassionate and taking care of other people. And then it changes. Things start to change in your mind.

That's the only way. It's not by wishing it. You tried that when you were a kid, it doesn't work.

Buddhism says you have to work and do the good things, help other people, dedicate your life to helping other people, and then you'll start to see things... it'll change. It'll change like that.

And that's how you get to heaven. Okay? Like that.

It really does exist, and you can go there. You might be in this room.

[Говорящий 2]
Okay?

[Говорящий 1]
Probably would be. Alright, we'll stop there. We do a short prayer, okay?

We have a custom to do a short prayer. And when you do this prayer, then we did a lot of good karma tonight. And then we do this little prayer where you send it out of your heart to other people.

You know, in Buddhism, anytime you get some money, or good karma, you should give it right away to other people. I wonder what that would do to your karma. You see?

You start seeing things different already. Okay? So we'll do a little prayer like that.

And then just enjoy it. It'll take a few minutes. Okay?

Okay.