Вордсмит — Книга 2: Трудные места школы «Ум только», занятие 42

[Speaker 3]
Hey, Word, how is it being a dad?

[Speaker 1]
It's a lot of things.

[Speaker 3]
It's a very diplomatic answer.

[Speaker 1]
I've learned to be diplomatic in my elder years. Well, I knew it would happen sooner or later. Laters.

I didn't mean to be diplomatic about your not being diplomatic. That's true. Okay, look, if you want to see Pure Intellect, the number one winner of the Geshe Michael bet system, it's right here.

[Speaker 3]
Wow.

[Speaker 1]
She's gonna get kidnapped by one of these audience people. Oh, there she is. She's like, yeah, I'm cute.

You didn't want to sleep anyway, Word. Sleep's overrated. Congratulations.

She's very beautiful. She's in the middle of your heart already. I know.

What's her name? Sushumna. Sushumna.

Central channel. CHUNG MA'I All right, you guys ready? Word, you ready?

Yes. Here we go. Progress report.

We're doing about normal, which is six folio faces. Those of you who are translating directly from the Tenggir like Nick, the Tenggir pages are huge. They have a lot more words on them.

But a normal carving like the one that Word's working on. Six folio faces per term is pretty good. I'm sorry, that's per day actually.

No, I'm sorry, it's per term. Okay, anyway. We can finish your second Mind-Only book, I estimate in February 2024, so in about a year.

Just over a year we'll be finished with your second book. Maybe we could go to Chang'e after that Word if you're up for it. I'm trying to sell Chang'e to somebody.

I would love to do it. It's 50% Mind-Only. Did you finish it?

I started it and I never finished it. I started it with Stanley's Speed Program. I never finished it.

We still should find a good commentary. It's pretty short. Wencek?

Wencek, yeah. I mean that would take about 30 years. By the way, I tried to translate his commentary and I wasn't that excited about it.

I don't think I would continue. Okay, so it's going to be about a 500-page book, same as the Diamond Cutter. All right, so you're on schedule, you're doing good.

I think Word, of everybody, Word tried to translate ahead, right, Word? I did, I did. Yeah, and I want to thank you for that.

I think I'm always looking for passionate people, people who want to do extra stuff. It makes me really, really happy. I was sitting there scratching my head thinking I was in the wrong book or something.

Then I said, oh my god, he actually went ahead and tried to translate. It really, really makes me happy and it makes me really grateful. God bless you, okay?

How you do that in addition to your new production, I don't know. But maybe you don't get any sleep, you're just stressing all night, so that sounds good. But I'm really, really grateful and I know Stanley did that mind map.

Just that extra effort means a lot to me as a teacher. It gives me a lot of encouragement when you guys do that kind of stuff. Here we go.

I'm going to ask you to, yeah? I can't attest to its accuracy, but I tried. You know, you don't make accurate translations without doing a hell of a lot of inaccurate translations first.

So, it's about half 50-50, but if you don't do that, you will never translate. Never, ever, never. So, God bless.

I love it. I love it and I'm very grateful. And it just shows initiative and it's got to be like that.

If this program is going to succeed, the translators have to be passionate. And if you're not passionate, it's a waste of time. So, all right.

Hey Tim, you want to come sit next to grandpa and criticize a word? It's very fun. That's why I got married.

I don't even need someone to sit next to me. Okay, he's eating Thai food, so don't mind the yellow car in his face. All right.

Okay, let's go. Two no prenasal in the second column. Okay.

Okay. Okay. This one sentence kind of wraps up or kind of expresses the two competing ideas we have that we're working on in words text.

And it's very, very sexy. I think it's very, very cool. And this one sentence is...

So, SAB DANG means seed. By the way, after RIGS, I don't know why, but the prenasal is even heavier, RING DA. It sounds like ring, RING DA.

So, a seed at eight o'clock, which is the seed of a similar type in the previous moment, acts as a RGYUD KHYEN, acts as a contributing cause. And then by its power, when things are KHO NAS KHO DU PHAL BA'I, as that seed increases in power, at that time also, PHYIR GNYIS KYI GNAS PA The fact that it is existing by the very nature of things, through shunyata, it is persisting through shunyata, but it's also triggering things. So, words text here, there's the great debate between RANG BZHIN MED RIG and SAB NGON.

How do you get to nirvana? How do you get to Buddhahood? Because you work hard, hearing, thinking, meditating to SAB NGON, which increases bigger and bigger and bigger, right?

Or is it because you always had that Buddha nature in you? Which one?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Don't tell me they work together, because one is unchanging, and the other changes every millisecond. Don't tell me they work together. But these arguments are all addressing this question.

How can you say that I have to study, meditate and practice in order for my natural Buddhahood to get Buddhahood? Was it changed? What are you talking about?

And it's a beautiful debate. So he says, there are seeds which replicate themselves, their power gets bigger and bigger, and at the same time, they are staying there by the very nature of things, and there is increase through causation. At the same time, GNYIS KHA YIN, both are going on at the same time.

There is an unchanging Buddha nature being revealed by a changing practice. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. It's very beautiful.

All right. It's the same with karma and emptiness, no? It's basically an argument between karma and emptiness.

Okay, keep going. Tim's still here. G-YOR YOD PA LA DREG POR MED PA'I SRUNG PA YANG KHYEN THAMS MA TRES PA'I DBANG DU BYAS PA'I PHYIR RO Up above, in section 367 if you're interested, they were talking about things that could be a cause without being a result.

Okay? Existing as a cause without existing as a result. And some people said, well, he's trying to address the question of an unchanging Buddha nature and the cause of making it happen, enlightenment, which is study, study, study, meditate, meditate, meditate, practice, practice, practice.

So he says, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We saw a text that said there could be the cause there, but no result. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But all that's referring to is not some interaction between changing and unchanging. It's not talking about that. They are not suggesting that there is some interaction between something unchanging, which is your Buddha nature, and something which changes every millisecond, which was your study.

And your meditation. They're not saying that. He says, it just means until the RGYUD PHRAD PA ZAD KHYEN Meets it, touches it.

Yeah, until the cause bumps into the necessary triggers, then yeah, it's not going to have a result. Maybe you have a predilection to become a Buddha, but until you study, nothing's going to happen. That doesn't mean your inner habits aren't causes.

They just didn't meet the right trigger yet. Okay, KHYEN means trigger. They're in you.

They weren't opened yet. They weren't triggered yet. So when we say there's a cause without a result, we just mean so far.

Until you meet the necessary circumstances. Until you study. Okay, all right.

All right. Interesting. Go ahead, Word, and Uncle Tim is still here.

He did such a good job in Japan. He really, really helped that university get up. Yay.

Again, it's a, the whole argument, again, is how can you have a Buddha nature inside of you that's like a piece of steel and cannot change? And then you, I don't know, you brush it with a toothbrush or something? Like what, how can a flimsy brush little causes and conditions affect pure diamond?

You know, what, how can they ever interact? Okay, what's the point? And he says here, you asked us way back in Word's argument here, somebody brought up two problems.

Somebody brought up two problems. We just finished the first problem and we're just starting the second problem. What was the first problem and what was the second problem is right here.

Then, you know, this guy is bringing up problems. SANGS RMEG GYI SANGS PA'I DE NYID KHYEN GYI DE PAR BYED PA TZAM ZHIG RGYAS RIG YIN LA There's two kinds of, there's two kinds of rig, there's two kinds of Buddha nature in people. What?

RANG BZHIN MED RIG The natural one that stays within all people at all times and never changes. And then there's what we call RGYEN RGYUR GYI RIG. The Buddha nature that you have to develop.

Yeah, develop or cultivate. You have to cultivate it. Okay, so there's two rigs.

There's a RANG BZHIN MED RIG, unchanging Buddha nature, emptiness of, of not, emptiness of not coming from you. Okay? And then there's the RANG, then there's the, what we call the RGYEN RGYUR GYI RIG, which is the part of the Buddha nature in you that has to be developed and cultivated.

DE BU MED PAR ZHIG RGYAS Here's the, here's the RGYUS without the, here's the cause without the result. Okay? And here's the second part that he's going to whine about.

RANG BZHIN DU GNAS PAR RIG NGO BO NYID KYIS KU'I RGYUR ZHES PA'I NA Don't they say that RANG BZHIN MED RIG, the unchanging Buddha nature inside of you, is the cause of your essence body. Don't they say this, who's talking? An opponent.

He's saying, look, don't you guys talk about RANG BZHIN MED RIG? Don't you talk about the natural enlightenment inside of people? They say, yeah, we talk about it.

And don't you say that that's the one that triggers your essence body of the four kinds of, four bodies, right? Two physical, what are the two physical ones? Nirmanakaya, the one you send to earth.

RANG BZHIN DU GNAS PAR RIG NGO BO NYID KYIS KU'I RGYUR ZHES PA'I NA Sambhogakaya, the one you're in the paradise? RANG BZHIN DU GNAS PAR RIG NGO BO NYID KYIS KU'I RGYUR ZHES PA'I NA Yeah, and then? RANG BZHIN DU GNAS PAR RIG NGO BO NYID KYIS KU'I RGYUR ZHES PA'I NA Sambhogakaya, your mental state when you reach Buddhahood.

And then Svabhavakaya, your nature, body. And that's called NGO NYID KYIS. So he says, the opponent's second argument, okay, because it came a long time ago.

And I went and got it for you. His second argument was, dude, don't people talk about some kind of natural enlightenment inside you? Yes.

Is it called Buddha nature? Yes. Is it called Tathagatagarbha?

Yes. Is it the womb of those gongdas? Yes.

Isn't it described as the cause or what turns into your essence body? And that's his second problem that he raises. So here's, RANG BZHIN DU GNAS PAR RIG NGO BO NYID KYIS KU'I RGYUR ZHES PA'I NA No problem.

Your attempted second problem doesn't hurt me at all. MI NYID, MI GNOD TE, doesn't hurt me. Oftentimes in logic, you talk about an argument damaging an opponent or hurting an opponent.

Your argument doesn't touch me, man. Okay? Why?

Because we can go to Mahayana Sangraha. Okay? THEG PA CHEN PO'I DUG PA By?

Master Asanga. Okay, yeah. But it's all the same.

Mahayana Sangraha. We can go... Okay, I'll show it to you.

SAGS MED KYIS SA BON When you talk about an unstained seed, and you talk about it being the seed of the dharmakaya. GSUNGS LA CHUG GI GUS YANG BRJOD MI'I BA CAN DANG PHYIR PA'I DBANG MED TA'I ZHING NYID But that dharmakaya you're talking about is the condition of having eliminated the two kinds of obstacles along with their deep seeds. Okay?

What's the two kinds of obstacles? Okay? Okay?

So the condition of those two obstacles being removed is your dharmakaya. ZHING NYID RTOGS SOGS YIN RTEN GYI CHUG GI RTEN DU GYUR PA Now here's the punchline. That dharma body, dharmakaya, which is the result of eliminating obstacles to enlightenment, the two kinds of obstacles, is a dent for the other wonderful qualities of a Buddha, which are themselves changing entities.

For example, RTOGS CHUG, the ten places. So here's a tricky answer. Is there such a thing as a seed for your dharmakaya?

He says, well, in a way there is. What do you mean? There's a Buddha nature that acts as the basis on which you build your dharmakaya.

But, and it's the basis on which you build your qualities such as omniscience, which is an impermanent, constantly changing thing. So he says it's not a cause, it's a foundation. He's trying to, our guy's trying to draw a distinction between, it's not a cause of the dharmakaya, it's a kind of a foundation for that.

I mean, if it was me and I was in the debate ground, I'd say, well, so it's holding up. Since it's a foundation, I guess it's functioning to hold up your dharmakaya, right? And then the guy's in trouble anyway.

But I don't know. So here he says, RTEN DU RGYUR PA That's how we get out of the problem. We don't say what?

We don't say RGYUR RGYUR PA We don't say RGYUR RGYUR PA We don't say your emptiness or your Buddha nature is the cause for your dharmakaya. Don't say it that way. It's the support for your dharmakaya.

Well, if it supports, it must be changed. No. Okay, I don't know.

You got to go there. Now, who says that? RGYUR PA NYID KYI We got some cool stuff going on here.

I had no idea. I was noticing that. We got something going on with the screen.

I don't think it shows up. That's probably Amalie for her birthday. You're not doing those crayon marks there?

No, I'm not. So don't blame me. That's your dharmakaya essence supported.

Okay, so RGYUR PA NYID KYI means both commentaries agree. DRAL BA is the ancient verb for MNGDRAL BA, to comment. It comes from a verb, DRAL BA, which means to untie a knot.

That's commentary. All right, don't ask me what both commentaries. Okay, nobody asked me.

Good. Oh, he says root text and commentaries. Can I just make a quick comment?

Somebody with some sort of access is drawing on the screen, and the name appears to be Chinese characters. So if you could try to erase those marks from the screen, that would be helpful. It's a little distracting.

I think they're kind of cute. All right. Anyway, by the way, there's the root text word where they talk about this argument, and I thought it would be fun if you could put it into your text.

It's only three short paragraphs, okay? I thought it'd be fun to put it in as a footnote. So if you would like to read that first long sentence, four lines, Tim has offered to critique you.

Okay. Translate, word. Those little, those small bok choks, those small seeds of potentials, those small babies depend upon...

Hold on, say it the other way, say it the other way. Oh, okay, I see. Yeah, yeah.

Those middling seeds are dependent upon those small seeds of potentials. Those small bok choks, those small seeds, and those bigger seeds are dependent upon those middling seeds. Okay.

Listening, contemplating, and meditating many times, because you listened, contemplated, and meditated many, many times. Yeah, so this is obviously talking about the part of your enlightened capacity which is being built up, cause and effect, cause and effect, cause and effect. You study, you get a result.

You meditate, you get a result, okay? Now, keep going, word. That's the changing part.

Okay. Stop there, stop there. This is a very controversial statement.

Okay, those potentials which come from listening... From going to class, actually. Yeah, going to class.

Those small seeds that come from going to class, and the middle ones, and the big ones, also are the seeds for seeing yourself, or seeing the... This da means, I want you to see them as... Oh, the seed of the dharma body.

Yeah, I want you... Who's speaking? Asanga, right?

Asanga, yeah. Who's an Arya. He says, I want you to think about those seeds that you pile up by going to all the classes are seeds for your dharmakaya, okay?

And by the way, word, why does he say, I want you to think of them that way? Because they cannot be. The chokyi ku is unchanging.

The dharmakaya is unchanging, okay? But he says, Asanga says, you know what? Let's think of going to class as a seed, which creates your unchanging buddha nature body, okay?

Okay, kind of controversial. KUSHI NAM PAR ZHES PA'I NYEN PO YIN What's that mean? It is the antidote to the foundation consciousness.

Yeah, now listen, word. So I went to class lots of times. I went to all 60.

Poor grandpa, working so hard. I went to all 60 classes, even if I had to get up a little bit early, or go to bed a little bit late. And I got all those seeds, okay?

What are they going to do? They are actually the NYEN PO for KUSHI. They are going to permanently destroy your foundation consciousness, which is a big refrigerator of all your bad karmic seeds.

The seeds you plant by coming to class are going to destroy your KUSHI. Where you keep all your seeds, okay? By the way, what's the next question going to come up?

What about all the good seeds in your KUSHI? Well, partly, I'll say it again. Look, keep coming to class.

Go to all 60 classes. Don't say you're sleepy, I'm sleepy also. Come to all the classes.

Why? You're going to get seeds. Seeds for what, Geshe-la?

You're going to get a Dharmakaya from these seeds. Wow, what's that look like? Well, they destroy your KUSHI.

Those seeds destroy your KUSHI. Where do they stay? Yeah, where the hell do they stay?

Tim finally asked the elephant in the room, they call it. Well, where do they stay, Geshe-la? Where do those seeds from coming to class, if their function is to kill the basket for the seeds, where are they going to stay?

But we didn't get there yet. KUSHI NAM PAR ZHES PA'I NGO YID NYAN PO YIN PAS Because they are the antidote, because they are the antidote, they're the fix for the problem of having a KUSHI. Okay, got it?

Therefore, they are not KUSHI NAM PAR ZHES PA'I NGO. They are not the essence of the KUSHI? Yeah, they're not made of KUSHI.

They're not made of KUSHI. They don't live in the KUSHI. They're not one with the KUSHI.

They don't sit in the KUSHI. They are not the KUSHI. Remember, seeds that have ripened already are the KUSHI, and it holds seeds that haven't ripened already.

And he says, look, if they destroy the KUSHI, then their nature is not of KUSHI. So where do they stay? That's Tim's question.

CIG RTEN PA YIN YANG, CIG RTEN LAS BDE PA Translated word, very sweet words. Very poetic. These are both the world and beyond the world.

Good. They are of the world, but they have transcended the world. YIN GZHIN TU RNAM PAR BDAG PA'I RGYUD THUN PA They are a cause.

They are a consistent cause for the pure realm. They support the existence of the emptiness, which is your buddha nature. They act to support the existence of your buddha nature.

Or they... RGYUD THUN means they contribute to the continuation of your buddha nature. What?

Going to class. So check this. When you get seeds in your being from going to class, they destroy your KUSHI and they create the foundation of your Dharmakaya.

All right. CIG RTEN LAS BDE PA'I SEMS GYI SRAG YIN DU GYUR DPA'I So we can say they are seeds for what word? CIG RTEN LAS BDE PA'I SEMS They're seeds for going beyond the world.

Yeah, for the state of mind which goes beyond the world, which transcends samsara. They are seeds. All right.

Read one more and Tim's going to take you one more time. DINI CIG RTEN LAS BDE PA'I SEMS MA CHUNG THU SEMS KYANG NYONG MONG PA'I KUNE TRI PA'I NGEN PO THANG NGEN SUNG DUN DRO WE NGEN PO THANG NGE PAR CHE PA THAM CHE THE NGEN PAR CHE PA NGEN PO YIN NO Good. CHUNG THU SEMS is an idiom that you guys don't know yet.

Okay. CHUNG THU SEMS. Okay. CHUNG THU SEMS. It's an idiom. Okay. THU SEMS is an idiom. It means, and even in the time up to the time when you get your state of mind beyond the world.

Okay. Even in the period until such time. It means until such time as you get your enlightened mind.

Okay. Your state of mind. Do these seeds do anything for you until you reach enlightenment?

Do they do anything inside of you until the moment you cross over and become enlightened? Do they contribute to anything? He says, oh, THU SEMS KYANG.

Even in the interim, even in the years until you get enlightened, yeah, they're doing lots of good stuff. They are acting as a NGEN PO for your NGON MONGS. They're an antidote for...

Yeah, they're an antidote for your negative emotions. And KUN CI is an Abhidharma synonym for negative emotion. Abhidharma gives a couple of synonyms for negative emotions.

And KUN CI, which means handcuffs, is a synonym. So the negative emotions which handcuff you, even before you get enlightened, those seeds from coming to class are fighting against your negative emotions, even before you get enlightened. And they are keeping you out of...

The lower realms. Lower realms, which we have mentioned many times. And they're acting as the NGEN PO for all the bad things you might really want to do.

All right? So are they seeds? Are they antidotes?

Yes. Are they doing something? Yes.

Are they seeds? Yes. Do they lead to enlightened mind?

Yes. Can we look upon them? Right here.

Can we consider them, almost metaphorically, to be seeds for the Dharmakaya? Yeah, that's okay. You mean the Dharmakaya is a result?

No, I just told you there's a cause without a result. That's what I meant. That's what I meant.

It's good stuff that helps your buddha nature shine, but it doesn't create your buddha nature. I wouldn't say that. Okay, got it?

Yeah, okay, nice. And there's some commentaries, words that you can read in the late nights when you're feeding your daughter with the extra milk there. I gave you two commentaries.

I thought you might... They're actually pretty interesting. Okay, please, you go, Hasso.

Come on, let's suffer some more. Oh wait, Stanley wants to check you. Hasso, you can come sit here and I'll pick on you shortly.

Okay, word, rik dang. Rik dang ho ngo wang yi gyi gyu yi ngyur sung pa ther yang nyam shak mi tok yashay gyu me yi jey tok suk gyu yi ngyur sung dey chiyar tang Okay, when we say that the first rik, the first buddha nature, is the cause of your essence body, when we say that your first buddha nature is the cause of your essence body, what we mean is the nyam shak mi tok yashay, the wisdom of deep meditation which no longer sees things as self-existent. They call it non-conceptual. If that's what you understand when I say, no longer sees things as self-existent, that's a good translation.

I like elaborations here, it's good. So we can imagine something as a cause for the dharmakaya and we can imagine something else as a cause for the form body, rupakaya. Two rupakayas, you sitting in your buddha paradise and then you sent to earth, those are rupakaya.

Dharmakaya has two parts, your mindset as an enlightened being and your inherent nature of emptiness. He says the actual meditation in which you see emptiness directly is a cause for the dharmakaya, the mind and the emptiness of a buddha. And then je tok, the state of mind you get after you come out of direct perception, helps you, we can call it a cause of your two physical bodies.

The first part is controversial, that the direct perception of emptiness could be a cause of your emptiness as a buddha, but that doesn't have a cause. You see what I mean? Okay, he's just saying it...

What's the definition of a cause? Hundred dollars. That which brings a result.

[Speaker 3]
That which brings a result.

[Speaker 1]
Short definition, panchay, that's all. It contributes to something. It contributes to something else.

That's a short definition, panchay. Can the direct perception of emptiness contribute to the dharmakaya?

[Speaker 2]
Just to half of it.

[Speaker 1]
That's a tough question. It better contribute to something.

[Speaker 2]
It's an absence. But the dharmakaya is not a cause.

[Speaker 1]
Well, half of it is not a cause. That's why we're spending like two terms on this question. It's a great question.

Okay, all right. Please read, and we got a house out here. Word.

kap shen du means in other contexts in scripture, you do get two causes described. You do get causes described for the two kinds of bodies. And what are the causes?

[Speaker 2]
SOGS NYID Oh yeah, the accumulation of the two.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the two collections of merit and wisdom act as this cause for the form body and the wisdom body. Or the dharma body. So, kap shen du means, kap shen du means in other contexts.

We're getting into a whole nother argument here, and it's going to be tricky. Please read word and Hasso is going to check you. So, kap shen du means, kap shen du means in other contexts.

Okay, good. By the way, to understand this sentence completely, you've got to say the two kinds of rik, okay, word. And that's something we haven't emphasized yet.

But it's called rang shen ne rik. And what's the other one? Yeah, geng yur kyi rik.

And together they are pronounced, geng yur, say geng yur. Geng yur. Geng yur.

Geng yur kyi rik. RANG BZHIN MED RIG RANG BZHIN MED RIG RANG BZHIN DGE'I RGYUR GYI RIG DGE'I RGYUR GYI RIG RANG BZHIN MED RIG means the Buddha nature which you have always had. DGE'I RGYUR GYI RIG means the Buddha nature which you have to...

What is that nice word I used? Develop.

[Speaker 2]
Cultivate.

[Speaker 1]
Cultivate. The one that you have to cultivate. So you have two Buddha natures.

One is that is built into you at the factory. 100% totally finished from the factory. And then you have a second Buddha nature that you have to develop through coming to class.

Or through other good deeds. So this is a debate. Let me see.

There should be a serna here somewhere. Anyway, this is a serna. It doesn't say it, but it's another guy.

And he says, look, are there two kinds of Buddha bodies? There's four bodies in general, right? But can we say that two of them are not produced by causes and effects and causes?

I'm sorry. Can we say that there's one Buddha body you get which you've always had and was not produced? And can we say there's another Buddha body that you get which you have to develop?

True or false?

[Speaker 2]
True.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, there's one Buddha body that was not produced by causes and conditions. And then there's a second Buddha body which is always caused by causes and conditions. The first one is, therefore, YOD PA LTAR, therefore, the RIG which underlies each of them must be their similar.

The Buddha nature which underlies those two must be similar. If there's a body that you get which is unchanging, and there's a body you get which is changing, then there must be two kinds of Buddha nature underlying those two bodies which help you to get to those two bodies. There must be an unchanging nature, shunyata, of you.

And then there must be a changing nature, which is the fact that you can be affected by coming to class. That's part of your nature. You're naturally a Buddha in two ways.

Number one, you're already a Buddha in your emptiness side. Number two, you are eminently developable into a Buddha. All right.

Are there two kinds of bodies? Yes. Are there some bodies that never change, and there's some bodies that change from moment to moment?

Yes. Does it make sense then that there should be a Buddha nature underlying each one separately? Yes.

One kind of Buddha nature which is developable, and one kind of Buddha nature which is permanent or unchanging. Always there, always will be. Does it make sense?

Yes. Then he says, but you know when we talk about the developable part, developable part of you, this is the other guy. If you say that there's two Buddha natures, changing and unchanging, because there's two kinds of parts of a Buddha, changing and unchanging, then since the changing part of a Buddha can be split into the paradise body and the emanation body, then I think there should be three rigs.

There's the changing nature underlying the Buddha's Dharmakaya, and underlying the changing body of a Buddha. Since that's two bodies, there should be two more Buddha natures under those two. So you should have how many Buddha natures?

Three. You got one unchanging Buddha nature under your unchanging body, and then you got now two Buddha natures under your two changing bodies, which is your two form bodies, which is the body you have in paradise, one, and the body you send to earth, which is two. He says, I don't like it that you always talk about two Buddha natures.

Since you decided that there would be two Buddha natures because there's two Buddha bodies, well, since there's really three Buddha bodies, I say you're wrong. There should be three Buddha natures. What?

An unchanging one that underlies your unchanging Dharmakaya, a changing one which underlies the body you send to earth, and a changing one that underlies the body you sit in, in your paradise. The other guy says, you guys always talk about two Buddha natures. I say there should be three.

Why? Because you guys said they relate to where you go. You said that decides how many Buddha natures there are.

Well, if that's the case, since there's two separate form bodies, you should have three Buddha natures by following your own methodology, by following your own system. How do you decide there's two Buddha natures? Well, because there's changing Buddha stuff and there's unchanging Buddha stuff.

Okay, so you're looking at the result, or the final outcome, and you say each one is relying on a separate Buddha nature. Yes. Well, one of the final outcomes has two final outcomes.

So I say there should be three Buddha natures, he said. Okay, got it? LONG GRUB ZAN NYID THAR BA NYID YOD PAS Well, since the two form bodies are separate, DE NYID KYI RIGS ZAN NYID THAR BA NYID DGOS There should be a separate Buddha nature underlying each one.

Which means RIGS NYID SU MA NGAS PA This is the NGAS PA that means... A definite amount? Yeah, a definite number, fixed number.

Therefore, it's wrong that you guys always talk about two Buddha natures. There should be three. That number should be...

what do you call it? Inexact. That number should be imprecise.

Why? Because SUM TU YANG RGYUD RO Yeah, three. Hey, it could have been three too.

I mean, also. It also could have been three. Okay, that's that guy.

DE NYID ZAS MIN GYUR Word, if you read fast, Hasso can check you and we can finish this already. We have six minutes. Yeah, that's two per body.

That's two per Buddha nature. Mane. DU BYED DU MA BYED NYID GSUN GYI RIGS ZHES PA TZAM DU ZAS PA'I PHYIR RO Good.

MIN GYUR TE We say, no, we don't like this idea of splitting Buddha nature into three. Why? Because those two are the same kind.

Last two are the same kind. They're both GYIN GYUR GYI RIGS They're both developable Buddha nature, and not by nature Buddha nature. RANG BZHIN MED RIGS means it's always been that way, it always will be that way, you always have it.

GYIN GYUR GYI RIGS means developable, further developable Buddha nature, which is developed by planting seeds, by going to class. And that's exactly what it says, and grandpa didn't make it up. GYIN GYUR GYI RIGS SU GCIG Look, the last two you mentioned are the same.

They're both developable. So why count a second and a third? We go back to two.

They're both the same. Why? They both deal with developable Buddha nature.

They're both, both of the two form bodies. DGE BA DE YI RGYEN BU GANG GZUN NAM YOD ZHIG LAS CHUNG BA'I GZUN NAM YOD ZHIG LAS CHUNG BA'I Different causes. So he says, RIGS SU GCIG PA'I GYANG ZHES KYANG BYOD PA MI NUS TE You can say, he says, if they're both Buddha nature, then we can have three Buddha natures.

And we say, BYOD PA MI NUS You cannot say that. I'm sorry, I got to say it again. He says, I don't like it that you split off two more Buddha natures.

Why? Because they're both developable Buddha natures. Yeah, you can say that, but that doesn't help either.

Why? SNGA MA LAS MANG DE PA'I PHYIR TE You have the same problem that you had before. Literally, you have not gone beyond the same problem that you had at the beginning.

Why? DE LTAR NGO NYID GUS DANG GZUN KUN SEMS NYID THA LAS PA'I DE'I RIGS KYANG DU BYED DU MA BYAS NI GZUN DU DGOS Since the two Buddha bodies, the two pairs of Buddha bodies are so radically different from each other, then the Buddha nature underlying them should also be radically different. If there's two radically different kinds of Buddha bodies, why?

One that changes and one that cannot change. Then it's natural to say there's two Buddha natures underlying them. One which changes and one which...

One which is developable and one which stays by nature. RANG BZHIN NI RIGS SDUG BSNGAL PA'I SANGS DU ZHES PA'I PHYIR That's all. That's all we're saying.

You have to agree. Why? We're just saying you have to agree because, look, there's two kinds of Buddha nature.

Why? They're just so radically different. One you've always had and always will have.

On it, you build your Buddha bodies. Then you've got another nature which goes from lesser to medium and goes from medium to great as you study more and more and more. Then it helps the Dharmakaya pop out without changing.

Something to say, but that's the end of it. That's all she wrote, my dad would say. All right.

We've got two minutes. Let's not waste it. One minute, yep.

RANG BZHIN NI LA RIGS SUNG DUG PA YANG RTEN CHU KYIS THA DE'I DUN BYED PA'I RIGS LA YUN NUS PO THA DE'I SUNG THUB MI BYED PA'I KHYUN DU MIN GYUR ZHES KYANG JUS PAR MI NUS TE Good, and I'll just translate it straight. GZHAN YANG RTEN NI LA RIGS SUNG DUG PA YANG If you say that emptiness is Buddha nature, if you say that emptiness is Buddha nature, then RTEN CHOS, then what relies on that Buddha nature? So RTEN CHOS is like the cup on the table.

I'm sorry. He says RTEN CHOS, the table that supports it. THA DE'I DUN BYED PA What's DUN BYED PA word?

DUN BYED PA To discriminate? Yeah, you've got to split them. Differentiate?

You've got to split them into two different ones. I'm not quite comfortable with the RTEN CHOS. I might have been more comfortable with BRAT RTEN CHOS.

RTEN CHOS is the cup of water. BRAT RTEN CHOS is the table. BRAT RTEN CHOS is the table.

BRAT RTEN CHOS is the cup of water. Yeah, I think it should have been RTEN CHOS, but maybe you can look it up word. Maybe you can check it.

Okay. If the Buddha bodies, if the bodies that are resting on the two natures can be divided... Sorry.

Yeah, I guess... No, I guess I think it makes more sense. RTEN CHOS equals...

It makes more sense. What's relying on what? There's two things relying on two things.

What are they? The Dharmakaya or the mental body is relying upon RANG BZHIN GNYED RIGS. Good.

The unchanging or the Dharma... By the way, if the Dharma includes changing and unchanging parts, it is considered as a whole... Unchanging.

Unchanging by the rules of Buddhism. If you have an unchanging body, it's resting on an unchanging Buddha nature, and then you have a... The changing body is resting on...

Resting on a changing Buddha nature. THA DUR DU BYED PAS If you're basing it, if you're basing your division of the natures on what's resting on them, or what those two bodies are relying on, THA DUR DU BYED PAS RIGS LAM DNGUL PO THA DE GSUM DU MI BYED PA'I KHYEN DU MI GYUR Therefore, since we are mainly interested in establishing that one set of Buddha bodies rests on an unchanging nature, and one set of Buddha bodies rests on a changing nature, we don't think that your problem, KHYEN, that we have failed to split out three different natures, is valid.

We're not interested in all the different kinds of changing bodies. That's not the point here. The point is, there's two kinds of natures because there's two kinds of Buddha bodies.

One of them doesn't change, and one of them does change. That's all. We don't think you should say, there's three.

Then he says, SPYOD PA MI NUS TE You cannot say that. You can't say there's not three. You have to say there's three.

But, what's the problem? We don't get to find out till next class.

[Speaker 3]
Yay, a mind-only cliffhanger.

[Speaker 1]
You want something to chew on in the meantime? I'll give it to you, and maybe word as a challenge. Word likes challenges.

An unpaid, voluntary challenge. Here we go. It has to do with the question of THAR THUG THEG PA GSUM or THAR THUG THEG PA GCIG That's a very heavy teaching inside of Tim's book.

Inside of Tim's book. Ultimately speaking, do all paths lead to the same thing? Or are there three separate paths that will always be separate?

Now, somehow that relates to this debate. Somehow that relates to this debate. And you guys, everybody in this class today can chew on it.

If it's true, that ultimately all religious paths in the world are headed towards the same thing, which is the position of Buddhism. All spiritual teaching, all spiritual paths in the world are headed to the same result. That is a Buddhist teaching.

But some people say no. That's not true. There are always separate paths with separate results.

So you tell me, cook it. How does that relate to this question about two or three bodies? Because he thinks it does.

Somebody thinks it does. It seems a mystery. You guys figure it out.

All right, I'll see you bright and early. Thanks very much, Keshala. And speaking of bright and early, Word's going to get up even brighter and earlier than everybody else, hopefully, than me, to teach you guys a Tibetan basics class.

So thank you so much, Word, for doing that. And I think there's a lot of people out there that would appreciate it. So tell your friends they're not here tonight.

If you guys want to learn the alphabet and how to correct Word's pronunciation, he'll teach you. And thank you again for working ahead on your own time and working ahead and translating more. That's the kind of hunger for translation that everyone's going to have to have if you're going to be a translator.

And it makes me... When I saw it, I was just really happy. So thank you for that.

All right. Thank you, Keshala. Have a good night.

Thanks, everyone. Have a great night. Say good night to all the kids.